Mini 1652: Sweet Dreams - Game Over!

[VictorDeAngelo]

VOTE: Bji

[VictorDeAngelo]

I'm willing to get a sweepstakes going for how many pages until I get frustrated and call for a Lapsa PL.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Tell me more about your inability to play without spoonfed data; as well as your need to tell us about it.

This seems unnecessarily dickish. Pisskop did you draw scum?

Tell me more about your inability to play without spoonfed data; as well as your need to tell us about it.

There's nothing to tell. I'm just trying to figure out the parameters of this game. Perhaps you came out of the womb knowing all of the rules of this site and all of the games that could be played on it, but I personally did not, so I sometimes have to ask questions.

You really weren't meant to respond to that.

Also, wondering if I really buy that a player, even a newbie, can believe a Day 1 lylo setup was possible. Bji, outside of games you've played, have you read any other games on this site?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Tell me more about your inability to play without spoonfed data; as well as your need to tell us about it.

This seems unnecessarily dickish. Pisskop did you draw scum?

If I said yes, would you promise not to lynch me?

If I said yes, would you believe me for even a second?

Lol at trying to scumread somebody for being aggressive.

I didn't realise being mean counted as aggressive play now.

I'm going to put bji in my town pile for the time being.

[VictorDeAngelo]

VOTE: Pisskop

[VictorDeAngelo]

Wow, that one heck of a quick Pisskop wagon.

Wow this has to be a mislynch

I hate posts like this, especially when the person making it is doing to actually try and derail the wagon or question anyone on it.

Aero's meta has a small part to do with it. but mostly its the strong conviction grounded on vague and uneasily proven 'tells'. The vehemence of his read based upon two such weak points coupled with his spot in the middle of the wagon and inability to even attempt to show actual proof of concept is always scumy, but definitely scummy for a social player like Aero.
you mark my words. Thats Scummy thinking even without meta. With meta its certainly scum.
Id beat the game on it.

Can you link a game to back up this meta?

@Nickname

- What's your experience level?

I don't want to lynch pisskop right now.
UNVOTE:
Btw, my vote was an RVS vote

Good to know, now do you have any scumreads yet?

That wagon on pisskop is fishy. It happened too fast and there were two attempts to put him to L-1. Everyone hasn't even posted yet and looking over the reasons on some of these votes, they were pretty darn weak. I don't expect strong cases or strong reads right away on D1 but it is way too early to keep putting the same person to L-1 over and over.

VOTE: Lapsa

Despite the unvote your vote had the worst reasoning and you haven't really done much else except a little bit of fluffing.

I don't care how you dress it up, you can't complain about the speed of the wagon and then vote the one guy who basically jumped off because it was moving too fast.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Silverwolf

That said, I'm still behind a Pisskop lynch, but certainly not liking him being lynched this early on.

VOTE: bji
Don't like how the pisskop vote was snuck in there behind Victor's vote, and then surrounded by questions and joke-talk/clarificaitons

How exactly was it snuck in there?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Actually I can because of his bad vote and lack of any other contributions besides that, even with the unvote.

1

I don't like Pisskop's reasoning behind his bji vote or his aggressive early play but I think we should wait before we lynch the guy and get more info, reads from other players.

2

Let's summarise these two sentences:

1

- Says Lapsa's vote was bad.

2

- But agrees that the player Lapsa voted for was acting scummy.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Hey Pisskop, can you answer that questions you keep ignoring?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Actually I can because of his bad vote and lack of any other contributions besides that, even with the unvote.

1

I don't like Pisskop's reasoning behind his bji vote or his aggressive early play but I think we should wait before we lynch the guy and get more info, reads from other players.

2

Let's summarise these two sentences:

1

- Says Lapsa's vote was bad.

2

- But agrees that the player Lapsa voted for was acting scummy.

1) Lapsa's vote had no good reasoning behind it and looked opportunistic plus he has hardly contributed anything to the game and is being cautious.

That's the reason for my vote on Lapsa.

2) I thought the pisskop wagon was too fast to be at L-1 and didn't like it for reasons I've stated and I also didn't like some of his early game behaviors but not enough to lynch him over it right away early game without a lot more information to go on.

3) I fucking hate it when people twist my words around in games.

1) If your looking for explanation off Lapsa your probably not going to get it, and if you do your brain will probably implode trying to understand it.
2) This is where I see the disconnect. If you say you found Pisskop's play scummy before his vote then I don't see how you can be critical of Lapsa's vote. It's not like he put him at L-1, and if you thought his vote was opprtunistic why didn't you call out the votes that followed his? Plus how can you accuse of wanted a quicklynch after 84, which basically has the exact same criticism you just wrote in the first half of this.
3) Come on Silverwolf, you must know me well enough by now to know your not going to come out on top if your try accusing me of twisting things.

[VictorDeAngelo]

@everyone voting Lapsa

- this is his playstyle. You probably won't like it, but doesn't mean he's scum.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I've got a lean town read on Lapsa now.

@Nickname

- You say you've played on other sites, what sites were they?

[VictorDeAngelo]

I don't think it'll be in issue.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Been prodded. I'm not reading up 8 pages tonight. For probably be able to catch up tomorrow.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Still feeling like shit. Won't get a post til later in the week.

[VictorDeAngelo]

This is a post.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I haven't read since page 9, can someone tell me what I missed?

[VictorDeAngelo]

I haven't read since page 9, can someone tell me what I missed?

You are scum.

Discuss.

No I'm not.

I hope that was riveting for everything.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I haven't read since page 9, can someone tell me what I missed?

I'd say read from like 15.

Since this seems to be the only real suggestion, this is what I'll do.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Yeah, I'm seeing the Nickname wagon form and not liking one bit. Both Prolapsed Brain and West's votes seem opportunistic.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Also this game has too many walls in it for Day 1.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Yeah I just read 566, and I'm just put vote back on Wolf and leave it there, unless anyone can convince me of a better scum to lynch.

VOTE: Silverwolf

[VictorDeAngelo]

I haven't read since page 9, can someone tell me what I missed?

I'd say read from like 15.

Since this seems to be the only real suggestion, this is what I'll do.

Because 'read everything' is not a real suggestion?

It didn't sound serious to me.

Once there's a few lynches rereading will be more valuable, but at this point I was hoping for more along lines of someone take some ownership of a case or a wagon. Pacman was the closest thing to saying "Here's a good place to find scum", so I looked from there.

Victor: What is scummy about 566? I like to scumhunt on my wagon. What is your issue with it?

P. Brain-your vote is extremely opportunistic because you've been hopping on every wagon you can find and not explaining your votes. You've been voting for me all game.

This game is becoming extremely frustrating.

It reminded me of all the reasons I wanted to lynch you a week ago. I guess I could dissect it further.

First Victor who hasn't said anything of substance in over a week now votes for me because I helped derail a wagon he obviously wanted.

Just the whole way this attacks is scummy. The way you've slipped in my absense, the way you suddenly associative my vote with the derailing of the Pisskop and now your trying to take credit for derailing a wagon which I'm pretty sure you actually had nothing to do with.

That wagon on pisskop is fishy. It happened too fast and there were two attempts to put him to L-1. Everyone hasn't even posted yet and looking over the reasons on some of these votes, they were pretty darn weak. I don't expect strong cases or strong reads right away on D1 but it is way too early to keep putting the same person to L-1 over and over.
VOTE: Lapsa
Despite the unvote your vote had the worst reasoning and you haven't really done much else except a little bit of fluffing.

I don't care how you dress it up, you can't complain about the speed of the wagon and then vote the one guy who basically jumped off because it was moving too fast.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Silverwolf
That said, I'm still behind a Pisskop lynch, but certainly not liking him being lynched this early on.

So here he agrees with me that the pisskop wagon was too fast and votes me for voting for the vote with the worst reasoning but still indicates pisskop is the lynch he wants. This is just completely nonsensical. My Lapsa vote was well explained and he seems like he was just upset that I derailed the wagon he wanted plus he's got this abnormal defensiveness of Lapsa which is strange this early in the game for anyone to be defending another person. It's basically a chainsaw vote.

I bolded the part where I explained why I voted you. If any of the words were too long or confusing I could try and rephrase it, but you notice how none of it says anything you claim it says.

Actually I can because of his bad vote and lack of any other contributions besides that, even with the unvote.

1

I don't like Pisskop's reasoning behind his bji vote or his aggressive early play but I think we should wait before we lynch the guy and get more info, reads from other players.

2

Let's summarise these two sentences:

1

- Says Lapsa's vote was bad.

2

- But agrees that the player Lapsa voted for was acting scummy.

1) Lapsa's vote had no good reasoning behind it and looked opportunistic plus he has hardly contributed anything to the game and is being cautious.
That's the reason for my vote on Lapsa.
2) I thought the pisskop wagon was too fast to be at L-1 and didn't like it for reasons I've stated and I also didn't like some of his early game behaviors but not enough to lynch him over it right away early game without a lot more information to go on.
3) I fucking hate it when people twist my words around in games.

1) If your looking for explanation off Lapsa your probably not going to get it, and if you do your brain will probably implode trying to understand it.
2) This is where I see the disconnect. If you say you found Pisskop's play scummy before his vote then I don't see how you can be critical of Lapsa's vote. It's not like he put him at L-1, and if you thought his vote was opprtunistic why didn't you call out the votes that followed his? Plus how can you accuse of wanted a quicklynch after 84, which basically has the exact same criticism you just wrote in the first half of this.
3) Come on Silverwolf, you must know me well enough by now to know your not going to come out on top if your try accusing me of twisting things.

Then this pile of BS where he basically makes up a bunch of stuff that I didn't do. I explained already why I voted for Lapsa there twice, in detail. To me, he was just angry that the wagon he wanted was derailed. Just because I don't like certain behavior does not mean I think that person is scum or needs to be lynched.
And this was over a week ago now with zero follow up and he's basically voteparking me at this point. He's barely contributed anything to this thread at all.

What exactly did I make up here? That quote in the middle of the huge nest of yours right? I didn't edit it, I didn't do anything more than sum the two sentences to highlight the contradiction in your thinking.
Do I accuse of you not explaining yourself? No, I voted you because the explanation didn't make sense with the vote.
Did I complain about you derailing the wagon? No, because a) I don't believe you did anything to derail the wagon and b) I already said I didn't want the day to end too early anyway (you even quoted me saying that).

As far as I'm concerned at least one of Victor or Prolapsed Brain is scum. I would be surprised of two of the scum were on the same wagon at this point. But one of them certainly could be.
I'm still scumreading Ari which is explained here 514 and I also understand the scumread on bji which I explained in 472 some of the problems I had with him.

And for all this talk of me chainsawing Lapsa, it appears that SW isn't actually scumreading Lapsa at this point.

[VictorDeAngelo]

OK, just out of game.

I don't know what everyone's problem has been this game but we've had players calling for the mod to force replace, players talking about abandoning the game and then we get 667. I don't think any of the pressure on SW has crossed the line and I don't believe anything Bji has done should require him to replace out. The game is going to end up in real trouble if people don't just start working together.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Back in the game,

I still like my vote. Although Ari's defence does feel like a scumbuddy coming to the aid so I like that vote as well now.

[VictorDeAngelo]

@lapsa : when are you going to hammer?

Wow, I keep forgetting your in this game.

Any chance of some content before the day ends?

[VictorDeAngelo]

@lapsa : when are you going to hammer?

Wow, I keep forgetting your in this game.

Any chance of some content before the day ends?

For instance, what are your thoughs on the Ari wagon and the people on it?

[VictorDeAngelo]

You should probably unvote him before Lapsa hammers then.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I will retain my vote on the SilverWolf slot

This is grand.

So Ari, I think you have to target one of the following players tonight. They will conf you tomorrow, and circumstances pending, we can lynch you if they don't.

Lapsa
BJI
Pisskop

Anyone have an objection?

Yeah, how about we don't direct night actions. If Ari fails to confirm his role he's lynched tomorrow, so even giving scum a possible 1/3 chance is unnecessary.

Also, even if Titus is scum, she's right that Neighbouriser is not confirmed town, simply liklier town than scum.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Its work hour here. Gonna reply in a few hours.

Your few hours have come and passed.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TMJ

[VictorDeAngelo]

I really hate reading huge wall of text. If i got time i will reread few pages back.

Keep on stalling...

[VictorDeAngelo]

no.

why are we flashwagoning lurkers?

1) why is he scum?
2) what will his flip say
3) What reasons do each if ypu have?

He's scum because:

a) He hasn't voted anyone since rvs.
b) Most his subsequent posts were vague and he held back.
c) This post:

@lapsa : when are you going to hammer?

Is scummy as fuck and worthy of a vote on it's own
d) Since then he's been stalling instead of providing any reads or material, likely hoping the clock will run out before he can be lynched.

I'll admit the wagon is quick, but now we're not lynching Ari and the deadline is approaching there is a degree of urgency so fast wagons will kinda happen.

[VictorDeAngelo]

AND WHAT WILL HIS FLIP TELL US???

EITHER WAY ITS TELLS US FUCKALL

If he flips scum then the post I quoted is a good indicator that Ari is town.
If he flips town then his wagon will be quite informative (particularly in the event Titus is scum).

Putting that to one side though as I'd rather lynch the guy I'm most confident in flipping red than an info lynch.

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Cheety

- Votecount ASAP!

[VictorDeAngelo]

unvote

VOTE: Titus

I'm around to switch to P.Brain if need be until the deadline.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Hey TMJ, if I switched my vote to P.Brain would you switch your vote as well?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Any specific reason why u suspect pb more?

I was more interested in whether you would be prepared to move. The fact you wouldn't is worth looking at tomorrow.

VDA, if you switch to PBrain, scum might just have to bus. Stick to your guns on me being town.

With so little time left I don't see any other lynch happening at this point. You should write your final thoughts at this point.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Any specific reason why u suspect pb more?

I was more interested in whether you would be prepared to move. The fact you wouldn't is worth looking at tomorrow.

VDA, if you switch to PBrain, scum might just have to bus. Stick to your guns on me being town.

With so little time left I don't see any other lynch happening at this point. You should write your final thoughts at this point.

I wonder, whats the reason you ask me to switch in the first place?

vote victor

Did someone's scumbuddies tell them to be more aggressive during the night?

VOTE: TMJ

Also, I think I pretty much already said this to you, but I was interested to see whether you'd switch.

I find the Lapsa kill curious, so I think it's one of two reasons:

1) Ari is scum, and simply shot the guy he could claim to have neighbourised.
2) Scum worked out Lapsa was a PR.

Gotta reread.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Also, I think I pretty much already said this to you, but I was interested to see whether you'd switch.

I should probably expand on this actually.

TMJ, yesterday you did nothing. Not one serious vote until his buddy was in need of bussing. No attempt to have any actual scumreads. Hence why I asked you about your vote instead of anyone else on the wagon. Hope this has been educational.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Also, I think I pretty much already said this to you, but I was interested to see whether you'd switch.

I should probably expand on this actually.

TMJ, yesterday you did nothing. Not one serious vote until his buddy was in need of bussing. No attempt to have any actual scumreads. Hence why I asked you about your vote instead of anyone else on the wagon. Hope this has been educational.

So, with Titus' flip, you think it scummier that TMJ didn't counterwagon, but instead voted her?

No he made the right call sticking with Titus. Still after that vote at the start of the day I'm happy to keep pressure on him.

What would your thoughts have been if he had vouched for a switch to PB?

That PB was town if Titus flipped scum.

[VictorDeAngelo]

ISOing Lapsa was not a long task.

Alas, I'm not sure it was that valuable either.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Poor Lapsa. He had a Mushishi avatar and that made him cool.

Still haven't caught up. Lapsa kill looks weird. Did he crumb anything, VDA?

I didn't spot anything, there was this:

If anybody's a vig, Lapsa's your man

thank you

But I don't think it's enough for scum to say, look a vig, let's kill it.

[VictorDeAngelo]

So, VDA, just so we are clear.
You think TMJ made the right choice in keeping his vote on Titus but think it to be bussing. Yet you don't necessarily think it scummy despite having to be scum in order to bus scum, and think it only worthy of pressure? That's a mighty confusing thought process and I would argue it to be rather contradictory.

This is quite a jumble, so let me try to unravel it and let me know if anything doesn't make sense.

TMJ bussed Titus. He had not been scumreading her up until the point she was at L-2 and he voted her.
I thought TMJ scummy before his vote. I stated the reasons yesterday if you go back into my ISO.
I was testing him with the question. If PB was town, an opportunistic scum would jump to save their buddy. A smarter scum would stay. If PB was scum, then so would not so smart scum.
I don't see what's contradictory here.

Also, I actually meant I that second part that since Titus flipped scum, had TMJ vouched to switch his vote rather than keep it there, would you have called it a town or a scum motivation?

Scum motivation obviously.

I also take it you have PB as a town read then?

What made you ask this?

[VictorDeAngelo]

If anybody's a vig, Lapsa's your man

thank you

This quote is beautiful in retrospect.

Town Reads/Strong Town Leans:
Silverwolf, Lapsa, Johnny

Town Leans:

Pacman

, Pk

Null/Unknown:
Gliffie, TMJ, Victor

Scum Leans:
BJI,

West

Scum Reads:

Count Dooku

, Prolapsed Brain

my reads differs a bit

@Aristophanes, could you please write down concise read summaries for these guys?

these guys = [Pacman, West, Count Dooku]

I find this interesting. He disagreed on my scumread of Dooku.

I'm not so sure:

nasty nasty:

Count Dooku, Titus, Tjoe Min Ja

I think this was a list of Lapsa's main scumreads.

Makes me think DK may have been a jailer who can kill their target at the end of the night, jailed Lapsa, and decided to kill him, getting shot by scum himself. I have seen this variant quite a few times.

This seems a real stretch. Why consider this over the more obvious explanation?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Also, I think I pretty much already said this to you, but I was interested to see whether you'd switch.

I should probably expand on this actually.

TMJ, yesterday you did nothing. Not one serious vote until his buddy was in need of bussing. No attempt to have any actual scumreads. Hence why I asked you about your vote instead of anyone else on the wagon. Hope this has been educational.

So, with Titus' flip, you think it scummier that TMJ didn't counterwagon, but instead voted her?

No he made the right call sticking with Titus. Still after that vote at the start of the day I'm happy to keep pressure on him.

What would your thoughts have been if he had vouched for a switch to PB?

That PB was town if Titus flipped scum.

Can u enlighten us what did you do yourself yesterday.

Yeah, I helped catch scum. What did you do?

D1 is mostly crap. A lot of finger pointing and huge wall of diversion. But what matter is vote pattern. I suspect that you were trying to save your buddy titus, hence my vote.

Guy who spent 90% of Day 1 not voting wants to use vote pattern to solve the game. Ok let's roll.

You showed no interest in a SW/Titus lynch yesterday until I put her at L-2. In fact you steered clear of the whole subject of the slot. Only once the lynch seemed inevitable did you switch.

Furthermore your still refusing to give proper reads. Did you miss this:

Any specific reason why u suspect pb more?

I was more interested in whether you would be prepared to move. The fact you wouldn't is worth looking at tomorrow.

VDA, if you switch to PBrain, scum might just have to bus. Stick to your guns on me being town.

With so little time left I don't see any other lynch happening at this point. You should write your final thoughts at this point.

I wonder, whats the reason you ask me to switch in the first place?

vote victor

I'm actually rather curious as well. I think I get his angle here, but not gonna answer for him.

TMJ, pleeeeeeeease can I have something of a reads list?
Reactions to other stuff in the game?
Anything?

Or any of the other posts where people are demanding meaningful content off you. Even if you think Day 1 is crap, it's Day 2 now and we have three flips, so what's your excuse?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Also, even if Titus is scum, she's right that Neighbouriser is not confirmed town, simply liklier town than scum.

I find this statement suspicious. Why add the "even if Titus is scum" clause? Just saying "Titus is right. neighborizer is not confirmed town, simply likelier town than scum".

The "even if Titus is scum" part is 100% unnecessary in this statement and feels like a scumslip. Like, trying to hard to play the role of "I didn't know Titus was scum" and forcing an unnecessary clause into a sentence.

My top scum reads right now are VDA and Tjoe Min Ja. It's improbable that both are scum, but it sure does make sense that they are bussing each other and both have really suspicious stuff going on Day 1 and Day 2.

Because people have a habit of turning around after someone flips scum and saying "Well Titus said that the neighbouriser is not confirmed town, she's scum, so I guess the neighbouriser is confirmed town." I don't get how you think it's a scumslip at all.

[VictorDeAngelo]

OK, clearly TMJ isn't going to give us any reads here. Can we just lynch the slot now and move on?

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Victor, Can you elaborate on how u help catch titus?

@victor : can you answer this question?

Sure, but can answer my questions first please?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Another day passes, and still no TMJ reads.

I'm not sure why people seem to think Lapsa killed Dooku. However, if there is a 3rd party it should become apparent soon enough. Might be a bit much for a mini though.

Mini's are allowed multiple scum factions, and SK are not unheard of. That said I find it unlikely there a scum NK, a SK and a vig is a lot of kills in the same setup.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Opps

What is this... I don't even...

[VictorDeAngelo]

Jesus, BJI are you just trying to spam thread now or something?

[VictorDeAngelo]

I mean, I am indignant even to respond to this sort of level argument, but I have this horrid feeling that if I don't respond, you're going to clog the thread up more than if I did.

Also, even if Titus is scum, she's right that Neighbouriser is not confirmed town, simply liklier town than scum.

I find this statement suspicious. Why add the "even if Titus is scum" clause? Just saying "Titus is right. neighborizer is not confirmed town, simply likelier town than scum".

The "even if Titus is scum" part is 100% unnecessary in this statement and feels like a scumslip. Like, trying to hard to play the role of "I didn't know Titus was scum" and forcing an unnecessary clause into a sentence.

My top scum reads right now are VDA and Tjoe Min Ja. It's improbable that both are scum, but it sure does make sense that they are bussing each other and both have really suspicious stuff going on Day 1 and Day 2.

Because people have a habit of turning around after someone flips scum and saying "Well Titus said that the neighbouriser is not confirmed town, she's scum, so I guess the neighbouriser is confirmed town." I don't get how you think it's a scumslip at all.

Yeah I still don't really buy it. The discussion at hand was about Ari's neighborizer claim and how to handle the results of that claim after his neighborizer action of Night 1.

Right, and that's what I said. I agreed with Titus. Am I not allowed to say that. Am I not allowed to be the same side of a discussion as a scumread. Am I forbidden from mentioning her name? I still don't see how this is scummy.

It is true that Titus had said in post 731:

I had this talk in another game I recently finished. The odds of there being a scum neighborizer is 'incredible bastardly'.

Remote but not bastard. Neighborizer is normal. Scumsiding a normal role us still normal.

UNVOTE:

Yep, that's what I agreed with.

However, other people had also made similar points about this. For example:

I had this talk in another game I recently finished. The odds of there being a scum neighborizer is 'incredible bastardly'.

Right, and on the other hand I didn't agree with this, so what's the point exactly?

For the record, I've been neighborized by scum and I've been a scum neighborizer. Scum neighborizer isn't that outlandish. Would confirming the role make Ari more or less confirmed town for you, pisskop? I don't think it will. Ari lynch is still the best option, so my vote stays.

And this seems to be a question to Pisskop. Plus Gliffe still wants to lynch rather than test the claim (which I didn't agree with). So what's the point of this?

AFA Ari neighborizers scum. That would only really work if Ari felt capable of sorting them.

And I didn't agree that Ari should neighbourise scum. So again I disagreed with Pisskop.

OK so despite the fact that several people had mentioned that scum neighborizer is possible (pisskop expressing serious doubt but not calling it impossible, Gliffie pretty clearly indicating that it's distinctly possible ("isn't that outlandish")), you chose to focus on Titus' statement, and further to put the "even if Titus is scum" clause in there.

What Pisskop was on the opposite side. Incredibly bastardly is more than serious doubt and is against what I said (in fact I believe it was that post made me respond in the first place, but I'd have to check and to be frank, I'm not going to bother). Gliffe doesn't have Titus experience on this forum, so his opinion on why would his opinion on what qualifies as a normal role be more valid, I don't get it.

That clause was not necessary. This statement would have been just as effective:

"And Titus is right that Neighborizer is not confirmed town, simply likelier town than scum"

Or even:

"And besides, Neighborizer is not confirmed town, simply likelier town than scum"

I could literally rewrite probably more than half your posts and make them townier. Does that mean your scum?

There was like no reason to invoke Titus' name in that statement, let alone to say "even if Titus is scum", if you're town who is trying to make a point why even sully the sentence with the name of the current leading scum candidate?

Because I did. I mean I can't really offer answers for something that happened a week ago. It's not like I spent several drafts trying to get right.

"Because people have a habit of turning around after someone flips scum and saying "Well Titus said that the neighbouriser is not confirmed town, she's scum, so I guess the neighbouriser is confirmed town.""

Then why did you put Titus' name in your sentence if you were so worried about how it would look if she flipped scum?

I don't understand the question. Can you rephrase?

PEdit: @bji - because we should actually be discussing about better stuff than this.

@Pisskop - Yep, and I against narrowing choices again today fwiw.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Anyway, I think my point was clear.

There was nothing in your counterpoint that said anything you hadn't already said.

So yeah, I'll leave this topic alone for now and others can take from it what they like.

What?!? There was plenty I hadn't said before. Why brush my post off like this?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Anyway, I think my point was clear.

There was nothing in your counterpoint that said anything you hadn't already said.

So yeah, I'll leave this topic alone for now and others can take from it what they like.

What?!? There was plenty I hadn't said before. Why brush my post off like this?

Do you want to keep talking about it or not?

Is there a way we can't both drop it and you can stop misrepping me? Or am I trying to have my cake and ice cream at the same time?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Right, and that's what I said. I agreed with Titus. Am I not allowed to say that. Am I not allowed to be the same side of a discussion as a scumread. Am I forbidden from mentioning her name?

Straw man. I never said you were not allowed to be on the same side of a discussion as a scumread, or that you are forbidden from mentioning her name. There are many types of posts in which you could rationally discuss a scumread. Invoking that scumread's name in the sentence in question was superfluous, which is what is suspicious.

It's not a strawman because I wasn't discussing a scumread, I was discussing the possibility of a scum neighbouriser. And I was saying that my stance was the same as Titus, so mentioning her name is hardly superfluous or scummy.

I still don't see how this is scummy.

This is exactly what you said in your first post defending my suspicion, so yeah, here you are clearly not saying anything you haven't already said.

Now this is scummy. You've literally taken the last sentence from a paragraph and isolated it away from the context just to make your point.

Yep, that's what I agreed with.

Yes we already knew you agreed with Titus, you're saying nothing new here.

Are you seriously just going to take every sentence and comment now?

Right, and on the other hand I didn't agree with this, so what's the point exactly?

The point is that you didn't say:

"Also, even if pisskop is town, he's wrong that scum Neighborizer is incredbily unlikely in this game"

You instead pointed out your agreement with Titus but with the "even if Titus is scum" caveat. The kind of thing you might do if you're scum with her and focusing more on what she says than other people.

And if no one had responded to Pisskop that's probably what I would have done (though I would disagree that the "even if pisskop is town" is necessary or equivalent). But Titus got there first. And I chose to agree with her. To say that reading someone's post and agreeing is focusing on her is absurd.

And this seems to be a question to Pisskop. Plus Gliffe still wants to lynch rather than test the claim (which I didn't agree with). So what's the point of this?

The point is that you also could have chosen Gliffie's comments to riff on if you wanted to reiterate that neighborizer might be scum instead of Titus'. Same point as I've made about 5 times already, and you're responding with the same defense 5 times now. Nothing new.

First, the point is irrelevent because Gliffe and Titus said different things. It doesn't make sense for me to say I agree with the statements I don't agree with.

However, you have not made the same point about five before at all.

1154 - You say I have scumslipped by saying "even if Titus was scum". Then you say
1) it's improbable that me/Titus/TMJ are scum together.
2) but it sure does make sense they'd bus each other.

Nothing about the fact that I choose Titus post over other posts at all.

I could literally rewrite probably more than half your posts and make them townier. Does that mean your scum?

Your argument here is that because anyone's statements could be suspicious, your statement should not be considered suspicious? I don't get that logic at all. Seems like a truism that could be used to defend anything.

No, the point was, simply because someone's post might be written in the exact way you would write them doesn't mean their scummy. You can't just take a post, and say because I would have written it such a way and he didn't, that means he's scum.

And that's exactly what you've tried to do here, which is completely wrong.

Because I did. I mean I can't really offer answers for something that happened a week ago. It's not like I spent several drafts trying to get right.

This is not really a defense, just an explanation of how the slip could have happened.

I don't need to defend it, it's scummy to begin with. You can talk about how I "sullied" my statement with Titus name, but you keep ignoring the fact that you can't say "I agree with Titus" without using the word Titus, and you can't really complain that I choose to say I agree with player X, instead of saying I disagree with player Y or I partially agree with player Z.

I don't understand the question. Can you rephrase?

Your suspicious statement was:

"Also, even if Titus is scum, she's right that Neighbouriser is not confirmed town, simply liklier town than scum."

I pointed out that mentioning Titus here was unnecessary and suspicious. You responded with:

"Because people have a habit of turning around after someone flips scum and saying "Well Titus said that the neighbouriser is not confirmed town, she's scum, so I guess the neighbouriser is confirmed town.""

So your defense is that you put that "even if Titus is scum" there to try to counter anyone's inclination to conclude that if/when Titus flipped scum, to assume that the opposite of everything she said is true. In this case, the opposite being that neihborizer must be town since she said it might be scum.

But none of this is scummy. Not the statement, not the explanation, none of it.

OK, so my question was, why weaken your own statement by invoking Titus' name if all it can do is to associate your statement with someone that people would mistrust after she flipped scum? If you hadn't mentioned her name at all, then your statement could stand alone as your own opinion. And if Titus flips scum, you can make the point then that her scumminess doesn't change the truth of the statement that neighborizer can still be scum. It is suspicious to include a distancing clause from Titus in a statement that didn't need one especially given that the clause only weakens the statement anyway.

Because it doesn't weaken the statement. Scum don't always lie. In fact Titus, as if she's scum, is not going to lie blatantly about the setup like that. Town or scum, she is pretty much going to tell the truth in these circumstances. Plus how do I know I live long to make the statement later. If Titus doesn't flips scum until after I'm dead then what?

Now given all of that, I don't think that your response really said anything materially different than your previous response, and I also think that my response here hasn't said anything materially different than anything I've already said, so I think this argument is played out. You are welcome to respond to the above but I think we just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I notice how you tried to dress it up as the argument going round in circles but it's not. You simply ignored all the questions I asked you. You claim points I'd never made before were somehow me repeating myself. The trouble I'm having is that I can't see any town reason to do this.

If someone challenges your case, especially one of your top scumreads, why back away? Why agree to disagree?

If you were town thinking I was scum, I can't see you backing away like this. Either you'd say you were wrong and move on. Or you would keep pressing trying to push the case on me.

All in all, I'm now leaning scum on BJI.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Pu-lease. I took that sentence off of the end of the paragraph because it very clearly and directly was evidence for my assertion that your posting didn't really say anything new. What is scummy about that? Did lopping that sentence off of the end of your paragraph and responding to it separately somehow misrepresent you? My point is that you weren't just making the same defense in your post, you were in some circumstances using nearly the exact same wording. I thought that showing that sentence in isolation would demonstrate that.

Yes it is. You originally claimed that there nothing new. The fact is there was clearly stuff you should have responded to in the post. You can't just take a large post and then highlight the odd sentence where I repeat something said before, out of context, just to try and show I said nothing new. It's a cheap attempt to score points and town doesn't do that in my experience.

And if no one had responded to Pisskop that's probably what I would have done (though I would disagree that the "even if pisskop is town" is necessary or equivalent). But Titus got there first. And I chose to agree with her. To say that reading someone's post and agreeing is focusing on her is absurd.

I understand your position here. I understood it the first time you said it. Yes, it's obviously possible that your reference to Titus could have been innocent and if it was, the explanation you give would be rational.

1

However, the simple fact is that you referenced Titus specifically in a situation in which you did not need to and I find that suspicious. Our positions seem to be irreconcileable, which is why I said we'd have to agree to disagree.

No, it's not that our position's are irreconcilable, it's your thought process that is. You can't say that:

1

It's possible referencing Titus was innocent and therefore your explanation makes sense.

2

Referencing Titus is still suspicious.
And expect to be taken seriously do you?

First, the point is irrelevent because Gliffe and Titus said different things. It doesn't make sense for me to say I agree with the statements I don't agree with.

Another straw man! I never said you should say that you agree with statements you don't agree with. I simply tried to demonstrate that there are other ways to have said what you said that wouldn't have required a little distancing from scum clause.

Except you know that the reason I said I agree with Titus is because I agreed with Titus. It wouldn't be worth saying "I agree with some of what Gliffe is saying but differ in the following...." or something ridiculous to that extent.

1154 - You say I have scumslipped by saying "even if Titus was scum". Then you say
1) it's improbable that me/Titus/TMJ are scum together.
2) but it sure does make sense they'd bus each other.

Yes, my wording in that post was really bad and I didn't convey what I meant well. What I meant was that I acknowledge that the chance of naming two scum is really low and it's generally a pipe dream to believe that you've found a scum pair bussing each other ... and yet, the way that you and TMJ are behaving is consistent with scum bussing. The "it sure does make sense" was a really awkward way of saying "it sure does look like".

I wanted to respond to myself and correct that when I re-read it but I have this constant tension between feeling like I post too much and annoy people (which I am sure I do), and trying to be sure that I'm clear at all times. I decided to let that one go rather than edit via subsequent post because I though it just might have been clear enough to not need correction. Guess not.

Oh look, another quote of mine with the context mysteriously removed.

Anyway, how is the way me and TMJ behaving consistant with scum bussing?

I don't need to defend it, it's scummy to begin with. You can talk about how I "sullied" my statement with Titus name, but you keep ignoring the fact that you can't say "I agree with Titus" without using the word Titus, and you can't really complain that I choose to say I agree with player X, instead of saying I disagree with player Y or I partially agree with player Z.

You didn't

have

to say you agreed with Titus. That's the part that's suspicious, having invoked her name in a sentence where it was unnecessary and also happens to provide distancing from her and also weakens the statement anyway if you think she could have been scum. But all I'm saying is that it's suspicious! Are you saying that you wouldn't have found that statement at all suspicious if it had been made by someone else?

Sure, but I did agree with her. I didn't feel the need the lie. I don't see how that's suspicious at all. I'd imagine a majority of our posts would feature content that could deemed unnecessary.

But no invoking a scum's name does not weaken a statement. You keep making this argument and it keeps continuing not to be true.

And no, I wouldn't find that statement remotely suspicious if someone else made it.

I notice how you tried to dress it up as the argument going round in circles but it's not. You simply ignored all the questions I asked you. You claim points I'd never made before were somehow me repeating myself. The trouble I'm having is that I can't see any town reason to do this.

Nah man, it's definitely going in circles. I suspect everyone else can see that as well as I can. If you would like to point out a question that I ignored, I'll be happy to answer it.

1

Also, the town reasoning here is called scumhunting.

2

As in, I see something suspicious, I believe it may be a scumslip, I make my case, and then I defend it.

3

1

You ignored literally every question in 1187, even the part where I asked you to rephrase your own question so I could actually respond.

2

No misrepping != scumhunting.

3

But you

didn't

defend it. When I challenged you, you simply handwaved my entire post away. I had to bait you into defending yourself. And despite the fact it was the first time I comprehensively responded, you claimed there was "nothing new" and tried to quickly put the topic behind us. That's not what the way you treat a top scumread.

If someone challenges your case, especially one of your top scumreads, why back away? Why agree to disagree?

Because I believe that we've made our cases and I don't see them progressing much further with further discussion. That's why. I don't want to waste everyone's time with repetitive arguments.

You can't be serious right?

Even if I can believe you thought you'd spotted something, you can't have believed you've made a case. Not in the slightest. I mean how strong a scumread am I?

If I was strong scumread, you'd be looking to put together more than the sentence fragment you have, otherwise how would you expect to ever get me lynched?
If I'm not a strong scumread, how would expect to work out whether I'm scum or not without engaging with me further?

Ok, at this point, we actually are going to start repeating ourselves, and I kinda want to go to bed at some point. I guess anything else I'll respond to in the morning.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Waits 2 days for TMJ to post a reads list.

Doesn't get it.

Feels sad.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Awsome, knitting always sounding like a valuable life skill.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Waits 2 days for TMJ to post a reads list.

Doesn't get it.

Feels sad.

Huh?

You haven't answered all my questions from ages ago, including my request for some sort of reads list.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Responding to individual sentences in your original post is not unreasonable at all, especially because I did it in exactly one place, where I thought it made a particularly clear point, and not in any other part of my long posting. That's all I'm going to say about this because this particular sub-argument is pointless.

But you didn't respond to it. You simply requoted it and essentially said "Look, here's a sentence where Victor repeated himself. Therefore when I said that all he did in the post is repeat itself it must have been true.". It was scummy as hell and however much you want to try and dismiss as pointless I'm not really inclined to.

No, it's not that our position's are irreconcilable, it's your thought process that is. You can't say that:

1

It's possible referencing Titus was innocent and therefore your explanation makes sense.

2

Referencing Titus is still suspicious.
And expect to be taken seriously do you?

Absolutely. Unless you believe that there is no such thing as suspicion of guilt in mafia, only certainty of guilt. Do you believe that?

At risk of falling into a strawman - no I don't. But you've pushed this whole thing on a certainty that the reference is scummy, to the point you ignored everything else. You seem to drift between certainly that I'm scum one minute, to not even listing me among your main lynch candidates the next. It's confusing, and I'd wish you'd clarify yourself.

Except you know that the reason I said I agree with Titus is because I agreed with Titus. It wouldn't be worth saying "I agree with some of what Gliffe is saying but differ in the following...." or something ridiculous to that extent.

You chose Titus to agree with, not pisskop to disagree with or Gliffie to partially agree with. You must admit that this is true. Whether or not this is suspicious is the entirety of the debate here and I do not think we're going to agree, which is why I think our positions are irreconcileable.

I love the whole "You must admit that this is true." bit. I never argued it wasn't true, I argued it wasn't relevent. But whatever, I'm done debating this point too.

Oh look, another quote of mine with the context mysteriously removed.

That was not my intention, and I do not think that anyone following the debate (if anyone was) had any trouble understanding the context of the quote. This is more hot air about irrelevent aspects of the way that I am framing my responses to you. You are clearly looking to doubtcast anything I am saying by attacking not just my statements, but irrelevant aspects of the way that I am making those statements.

First, of course they would. You think people are going to see a long wall and at each little quote say "Hey, let's click back and check the context." They don't. And the way your framing is not irrelevent. The way someone presents a case is telling. The more work they put into distorting the truth, the likelier they are to be scum.

1

You ignored literally every question in 1187, even the part where I asked you to rephrase your own question so I could actually respond.

That is bullshit man. I responded to nearly every single paragraph from post 1187 in post 1197,

including rephrasing my question at the end in response to your request that I do so,

and I even quoted the part of your post that I was responding to in doing so

. I cannot even fathom how you can make this statement!

Oh god, it's crap like this why we go round in circles. Your original response, was and I'll requote in it's entirety:

I mean, I am indignant even to respond to this sort of level argument, but I have this horrid feeling that if I don't respond, you're going to clog the thread up more than if I did.

Sounds just like this:

This case is fabricated and false and leads me to believe you are possible scum. I can sometimes tell when scum is fabricating a scumread against me and this is exactly what it looks like to me but I'll go ahead and address each point.

The exact same sentiment: "I shouldn't have to respond to this, but I'm going to anyway". Scum really don't like defending themselves against me apparently, but they always feel obliged to do it!

Anyway, I think my point was clear. There was nothing in your counterpoint that said anything you hadn't already said. So yeah, I'll leave this topic alone for now and others can take from it what they like.

Sure, after I demanded you go back and read the post and respond, you did. But the fact I eventually got you to respond doesn't negate the fact you tried to handwave my post away in the first place.

3

But you

didn't

defend it. When I challenged you, you simply handwaved my entire post away. I had to bait you into defending yourself. And despite the fact it was the first time I comprehensively responded, you claimed there was "nothing new" and tried to quickly put the topic behind us. That's not what the way you treat a top scumread.

I handwaved your post away because you had explicitly stated that you didn't want to talk about it anymore. You said:

"I mean, I am indignant even to respond to this sort of level argument, but I have this horrid feeling that if I don't respond, you're going to clog the thread up more than if I did."

and

"PEdit: @bji - because we should actually be discussing about better stuff than this."

So it seemed to me that you didn't really want to even talk about it.

And by the way, who gives a shit if I temporarily handwaved your post away, I responded to it like 3 posts later when you made it clear that you did want to keep talking about it.

Then you should have said that, and not dismissed my post because there was nothing when clearly most the post was points made before.

Why do you keep bringing up irrelevent bullshit about the mechanics of this discussion? Is this your way of trying to detract from the actual topic at hand?

Why do trying to do scummy things to prove your point? And why is it so bad I pointed them out?

If someone challenges your case, especially one of your top scumreads, why back away? Why agree to disagree?

Because I believe that we've made our cases and I don't see them progressing much further with further discussion. That's why. I don't want to waste everyone's time with repetitive arguments.

You can't be serious right?

Yes. I'm happy to let this topic die because I think that it

is

wasting everyone's time. So I'll say now that you are welcome to the final word and I will not respond to you on this topic anymore. I have made my points clear and made them repeatedly as have you. I believe we understand each other, and that no one else even cares.

I won't pretend I understand your attitude, but I agree people won't read this, and that is depressing. I won't expect an answer to the questions then.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Honestly not reading all that.

Gimme a tl;dr both of you.
Why, in one small paragraph, is the other scum (I assume you're arguing the other is scum)

The main thing is the way he tried to handwave my post away initially. When I started firing back ge didn't want to engage a scumread which is always suspicious. For example, he also tried to claim I had said nothing new, and tried to prove it by pulling odd sentences in paragraphs out of paragraphs while ignoring all the new content which is hella scummy. I think I summed it up best in the last post; if I was a top scumread he would have been keen to engage to build his case, and if he was merely suspicious he would have wanted to engage further to feel me out.

Jesus it's impossible to play a game these days without like at least half the playerlist replacing out

I once played in a game when no one replaced out. It's depressing how remarkable that seems.

Can you elaborate why you think me and victor is scum bussing?

Posts 1074, 1081, 1082, post 1084. I could elaborate but to be frank I'm getting really tired of making points that no one listens to or cares about.

You need to elaborate, because simple quoting posts with where we vote each other is a waste of time.

Here's 30-35.

Before I start, I wanted to point out that it occurs to me that there is probably a significant reason why SW's very frustrated freak out involved yelling at bji and Prolapsed in particular. Not just because she pegged them as the two people who were attacking her the most. It seems like more than that. The way I see it the two options are that she either freaked out at both her scumbuddies for picking her out as the weak link or freaked out at one of her scumbuddies for doing that and tried to cover it with a second freakout on someone else. I really think it's impossible that neither of Prolapsed or bji is scum. Of course rn I think it's Prolapsed but I don't find it difficult to hold onto my previous scumread of bji even though he was so important in getting SW/Titus lynched. Just a thought. I'm gonna try to read these 5 pages without tunneling Prolapsed... TOO much.

I can see this. SW has been scum before without replacing out under pressure. And I never understood what went so far over the line as to force her to run like that.

the thing is bji seems always to work way too hard to be scum. but maybe he just has a lot of time irl. Still leaning way more towards Prolapsed as the scum in the duo.

One thing is that effort is not always an indicator of alignment. Some players love being scum more than town. Some just want to spam the thread. Some players just post a lot in games, full stop.

Can you elaborate why you think me and victor is scum bussing?

Posts 1074, 1081, 1082, post 1084. I could elaborate but to be frank I'm getting really tired of making points that no one listens to or cares about.

Thats barely explanation. I think you deserve more attention.

Really, TMJ, you of all people are going to accuse someone of barely explaining themselves. Pure hypocrisy.

@Everyone

- I'm bored waiting TMJ to do nothing. Can everyone not voting him either move their votes or tell me why they don't want to lynch/lynch someone else?

The only explanations that I have been able to come up with for why she freaked out are, like your explanations, centered on the concept of being frustrated that she was being accused of being scum partly because of actions of a scum buddy. VDA fits in here because it's his initial points about her bad vote on Lapsa that she didn't seem to be able to escape, not being able to win the argument with him, and then when it seemed it had blown over, I came in and hammered on that point hard again. Another possiblity is, like you said, Prolapsed Brain, who kept voting for her pointlessly, going right back to her every time (and often voting repeatedly just to irritate her apparently). But I don't have strong conviction on either of these.

Really, your trying to say that of all explanations, SW replaced out because I bussed her. Why didn't she ragequit a week earlier or so earlier when I started pressuring her? Your timeline makes no sense.

[VictorDeAngelo]

ptap, I'll look over the thread later but I'm losing interest in this game and TMJ is mostly to blame.

[VictorDeAngelo]

The only explanations that I have been able to come up with for why she freaked out are, like your explanations, centered on the concept of being frustrated that she was being accused of being scum partly because of actions of a scum buddy. VDA fits in here because it's his initial points about her bad vote on Lapsa that she didn't seem to be able to escape, not being able to win the argument with him, and then when it seemed it had blown over, I came in and hammered on that point hard again. Another possiblity is, like you said, Prolapsed Brain, who kept voting for her pointlessly, going right back to her every time (and often voting repeatedly just to irritate her apparently). But I don't have strong conviction on either of these.

Really, your trying to say that of all explanations, SW replaced out because I bussed her. Why didn't she ragequit a week earlier or so earlier when I started pressuring her? Your timeline makes no sense.

Because having to defend you was one thing; but having to deal wth the argument again when someone else brought it up and came after her hard on it, after she thought she was already past it, was another entirely. Ever heard of "the straw that broke the camel's back"?

I feel like I either have to drop this, or prepare for another twelves rounds back and forth that will annoy everyone. I already have you down as a suspect, and if we're down to another scum toDay, expect a lot of scrutiny tomorrow.

You know whatd be funny? If we kynch scum today and gliffie's slot doesnt fill and thus cant nk

I assume if we go to night Cheety will delay the deadline to fill the Gliffe slot, whatever role he has. It's probably best not to try and read into this sort of stuff.

Pacman vote feels like it's doing nothing at this point. VOTE: Gliffieslot even though TMJ's definitely dying.

Sometimes it's nice to be able to pinpoint the exact moment you start scumreading someone. Well, West this is the moment I started scumreading you.

Chaos said he'd hammer and I see no reason why to not let him finish that.

I mean, if we're gonna start making time arguments, then I should point out the obvious: holding off on the lynch actually gives Cheet more time to replace Gliffie.

Also, Gliffie is a he.

So you saw there was an intent to hammer. Why vote at all? Why not just leave your vote, or just unvote and leave it off.

Any one of West, pisskop, Gliffie, or ChaosOmega could be hammering TMJ. You can't all be scum, so there must be reasonable town motivation for not hammering. What is it?

Wow, you really mustn't be paying attention to have to ask questions like this.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Any one of West, pisskop, Gliffie, or ChaosOmega could be hammering TMJ. You can't all be scum, so there must be reasonable town motivation for not hammering. What is it?

Wow, you really mustn't be paying attention to have to ask questions like this.

Must not be. Because I can't think of any reason for any of those 4 to not be hammering TMJ. Let's get this overwith and get this sad game moving forward.

Things bji has apparently not noticed:

1) Gliffe replaced out. He posted this in the thread and a few people have mentioned this fact. Obviously an empty slot isn't hammering anyone.

2) Chaos has stated intent to hammer, and requested a claim. So effectively, he is hammering TMJ.

3) Do I need to explain why it isn't suspicious that Pisskop and West haven't hammered or are we done here?

[VictorDeAngelo]

2) Chaos has stated intent to hammer, and requested a claim. So effectively, he is hammering TMJ.

TMJ is not going to claim anything, he's probably not even going to post. There's no reason to wait.

There's always a very tiny chance he claims a provable town role. I say give him till he gets to prod range to claim.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Odd NK choice, could be Wine but I have another theory which I will hold onto for the time being.

Hi Pisskop. I'm actually not.
TJM iso? That's like a 15 sec read?

VOTE: West

off to work...more this evening

Why West?

[VictorDeAngelo]

I think the last scum is in {Ari, Texcat, bji}. Discuss.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I think the last scum is in {Ari, Texcat, bji}. Discuss.

Are you still butt hurt over our argument?

Was I ever butt hurt over our argument?

[VictorDeAngelo]

I was just being coy. What I really wanted to ask was, is your inclusion of me in that list based on the fact that you and I had an argument? Or is there something else?

Something else.

Also, is your reasoning for including texcat because you agree with what I said about about his interaction with SW?

I didn't see what you said about him. You can requote it if you want to. I included him for the same reason as you.

Also, why Ari?

Same reason as the other two.

See I can be coy as well.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Victor has been on scum almost the

whole time

. Is he that good, or bussing the bus?

Blatantly I'm that good.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Most notably

Victor has been on scum almost the

whole time

. Is he that good, or bussing the bus?

post 915. VDA jumped off of the Titus wagon and onto TMJ. Amazing that he'd jump from one scum to another.

It's like there were two scum and I was happy as larry to lynch either.

This was weird:

I'll admit the wagon is quick, but now we're not lynching Ari and the deadline is approaching there is a degree of urgency so fast wagons will kinda happen.

Here he's talking about the TMJ wagon that he just tried to start up. But at this point Titus was at 4 votes (5 up until VDA left the Titus wagon to vote TMJ). I'd really like to understand why he jumped off of Titus and onto TMJ. Perhaps preferred a lynch of the useless TMJ scum partner to the useful Titus scum partner? If you're going to get town cred for lynching a scum buddy, I too would have preferred to lynch TMJ over Titus ...

TMJ was obvscum, SW/Titus was likely scum. Obvscum is a better vote than likely scum.

I'm really unnerved by how uncanny his aim has been.

Why? Are you not used to people being able to catch scum. I mean, I'm all for singing my praises, but I don't think either SW or TMJ were particularly hard to catch.

I didn't see what you said about him. You can requote it if you want to. I included him for the same reason as you.

It's like five or six posts up on the same page here. Please don't use the tired excuse that others have used that my post is too long so you didn't read it. We've had four or five days now with no posting at all, it can't be that hard to find some time to read what's happened since the thread unlocked ...

Anyway, I'll make it easy on you and just extract the part that is relevant here (and so as not to be accused of hiding anything, please be aware that a good bit of the rest of my post above talks about you):

I agree that the Pea Brain slot is highly suspicious at this point. My reasoning is almost entirely based on SW's freak out. Now that we know that TMJ is scum, it explains alot. It would seem that SW was upset because she knew she didn't have much of a scum team to rely on. TMJ was obviously not going to be much help. It seems very likely that SW felt like the rest of her team wasn't helping or wasn't going to be helpful either, and got frustrated when she, as the only "good" player on the team, was the one the wagon was forming on. So who else would SW have perceived as an unhelpful or maybe even hostile scum partner, to the extent that she felt like she'd rather quit than play with that team?

Pea Brain looks like a likely candidate. His multi-voting on SW almost looks like a really mocking form of bussing. Maybe SW got really frustrated by that.

That's all well and good, but what's any of that got to do with Texcat?

[VictorDeAngelo]

unvote

vote: VDA

Pending a better look at your scumhunting.

Wow, your seriously voting me for voting scum.

[VictorDeAngelo]

OK, so Ari is now confirmed to able to neighbourise. Would we be able to get a quick massclaim today?

Let's tackle my {bji, texcat, Ari} list anyway. I was dealing with the Pisskop wagon from all the way back in Day 1. There were seven players on the early Pisskop wagon. Three have flipped town. I believed there was a good chance one of the others scum, particularly since SW went after Lapsa on the wagon rather than one of the scummier votes on the wagon.

I think I'll remove Ari for the time being. Now he's proved his neighbouriser, it's removed one little worry from the back of my mind.

Bji, can I get a ChaosOmega case. Just the main points will do, I don't want a lengthy pbpa, just something I can read in a reasonable time frame. Also:

Can you elaborate why you think me and victor is scum bussing?

Posts 1074, 1081, 1082, post 1084. I could elaborate but to be frank I'm getting really tired of making points that no one listens to or cares about.

You need to elaborate, because simple quoting posts with where we vote each other is a waste of time.

I'm still waiting on this.

@Texcat,

have you played with Johnny before? Who else in the game are you familiar with?

[VictorDeAngelo]

How on earth did you come up with that list? I'll never be able to compete with bji or Ari.

Let's tackle my {bji, texcat, Ari} list anyway. I was dealing with the Pisskop wagon from all the way back in Day 1. There were seven players on the early Pisskop wagon. Three have flipped town. I believed there was a good chance one of the others scum, particularly since SW went after Lapsa on the wagon rather than one of the scummier votes on the wagon.

[VictorDeAngelo]

A good chance? I can tell you that you are going down a rabbit hole. Limiting your search for scum to those that voted for the first early wagon does not seem like a wise thing to do. But forge ahead.

Really, so you think I'm wasting my time thinking that at least one person the wagon is scum. Why are you sure scum would have avoided the wagon?

I will say that I thought my(Aeronaut's) vote on Pisskop was justified with reasons, and pretty decent reasons for an early D1 vote.

Well I didn't expect you to say that Aero was the scum in the group. Why don't you talk to me about the other two names on the list?

[VictorDeAngelo]

I have Ari as conftown now. The way TMJ tried to get his lynch through after he claimed pretty much confirms him. I'm not so convinced by BJI. That said I dug up Aero's post and the reasons for the Pisskop vote:

Hey guys, catching up~

Tell me more about your inability to play without spoonfed data; as well as your need to tell us about it.

This is forced and overly aggressive, and you know it.

*snip*

Lol at trying to scumread somebody for being aggressive.

Well the multiple question marks and exclamation points at the end were intended to be the giveaway. Also the idea that someone would really believe that they don't know how to play just because there is no matrix to look at was, I thought, by itself obviously tongue in cheek.

Maybe I'm just humorless today. Been stressful now that it decided to rain ontop of the monthlong snow. Its a swamp out there, if snow was mud.

These two posts in conjunction make me think Pisskop is scum. See, you're trying to make a joke / discredit people who are scum reading you for your ridiculous push, and then in the next post, you're retracting and almost apologizing for it. It's like you realized people were going to call you out, acknowledged it, and then immediately stopped doing it so you could try something else.

VOTE: Pisskop

Don't seem that great to me. If anything it feels a little more like scum trying to overjustify. I think I'm good with your vote now.

VOTE: Texcat

[VictorDeAngelo]

Bji, can I get a ChaosOmega case. Just the main points will do, I don't want a lengthy pbpa, just something I can read in a reasonable time frame.

Mostly the case is based on SW/PB interactions. The fact that PB chose to multiple-vote SW straight out of the gate, and the fact that PB always returned to a vote on SW with little or no justification any time there was a wagon in her direction is suspicious to me.

If SW was town, this would be suspicious. But I find myself constantly wondering as why multiple people in this game think that the act of voting scum is scummy.

I have a working theory that SW replaced out because she felt little or no support from either scum partner. TMJ flipping scum makes half this case. The question then becomes who else would fit the bill as an unsupportive scum partner. PB seems like a really good choice. I can 100% see PB having some kind of weird sense of humor where he thought that it was cool to bus a partner by multi voting them like that. It fits with PB's other weird behavior.

It's a theory, one that I'm not sure holds a lot of weight, and I certainly would let guide a lynch.

A much lesser, and kind of weak I admit, reason is the fact that ChaosOmega hammered TMJ, and also the way that it felt like ChaosOmega gave TMJ too much time to try to weasel out of the wagon. In my very limited experience of 2 prior games, scum hammered 4 out of 5 times. So I view the hammer vote with some built in suspicion. And in all cases, the vote looked similar, with a "I'll announce my intention to hammer and then give it some time so that everyone knows that I'm not a scum eager to complete the lynch" period at the end right before the hammer. Note that Pea Brain was the hammer of Titus, and ChaosOmega was the hammer of TMJ. Both hammers came from the same slot. Suspicious.

This is how people hammer. There's literally nothing odd about it at all.

Hope that wasn't too long.

No, this is the sort length you should aim for more often.

Can you elaborate why you think me and victor is scum bussing?

Posts 1074, 1081, 1082, post 1084. I could elaborate but to be frank I'm getting really tired of making points that no one listens to or cares about.

You need to elaborate, because simple quoting posts with where we vote each other is a waste of time.

When I read posts 1074 and 1081, I got a strong feeling like this is exactly the kind of opening I would expect to see from two scum who had discussed the best way to change TMJ's standing within the game. As if the Night 1 discussion had been something like:

VDA: Hey TMJ, you're not playing aggressively enough, you're going to get lynched as a lurker who does weird stuff
TMJ: What should I do?
VDA: Let's play off of the interaction we had at the end of Day 1. You come after me for that exchange, and we'll get a little bus going. I'll even explain my vote by accusing your scumbuddy of telling you to be more aggressive, which will be true because I did! No one will guess that I'm telling the truth! har har![/quote]

Yep, because scum go to the scumchat the first order of business is working out how to get other lynched.

Well that's what I read into that exchange. The fact that you, VDA, would go directly after TMJ of all people at the beginning of Day 2, when he was one of the least interesting participants in Day 1, all because of a weird interaction at the end of Day 1 that looked a lot like a set-up for further interaction, well the whole thing just smelled bad.

I don't see what being interesting has to do with anything. He was fairly obviously scum. When you say "The fact that you, VDA, would go directly after TMJ of all people at the beginning of Day 2," who exactly think I should be going after?

Now I also found it weird that in post 1082 you felt a need to further clarify a position to TMJ like that. When someone makes a follow on post like that it's clear that they've been thinking about whether or not their last post left the impression that they intended it to leave. Why so worried about how TMJ is going to understand your position? I think it's unlikely that you cared whether or not TMJ really understood your actions. That post 1082 was for the benefit of everyone else. Why would it be so worth explaining your position to that degree to everyone else? Nervous perhaps that a not-well-explained bus on TMJ would be suspicious?

It was for everyone else. The clearer I make my case, the better the chances of a TMJ lynch.

Then post 1084 is just admitting that the justification for your vote is basically OMGUS. "after that vote at the start of the day" (on me) "I'm happy to keep pressure on him". That reads like justifying a bus to me.

Considering I was voting TMJ long before he was voting me, OMGUS doesn't apply here. I don't see why keeping pressure on a player = bus either.

Most of my concerns about you are based on SW interaction, where you could be the other choice for "scum buddy who frustrated SW". But I think Pea Brain is a much better choice for that. Also I believe that your assertion that there was something scummy about how I handled our back-and-forth walls is disingenous; I think it's trumped-up as a form of counterattack. That's just how I see it knowing that my actions were not scummy.

If you want me to go over my issues with your posts again, I'll wall at you to your hearts content. But frankly even to a newbie my concerns should be clear.

The thing that worries me about you, with both the read on Chaos and me, is that you seem desperate to paint votes as bussing when there's really no justifiable reason why they would be. It's possible you just don't know what a bus looks like I guess. If I'm wrong on Tex, I might come back to you.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I don't see what being interesting has to do with anything. He was fairly obviously scum. When you say "The fact that you, VDA, would go directly after TMJ of all people at the beginning of Day 2," who exactly think I should be going after?

You quoted my question but you didn't answer it.

I don't think anyone except you thought that TMJ was such obvious scum.

Well, if anyone didn't think he was scum they should have done.

You gave some evidence against TMJ in post 915 but as far as I am concerned only (c) is even remotely convincing. The rest of it is all basically just statements about why TMJ would be a good policy lynch, not reasons for why he'd be scum.

I would spend time arguing why your wrong on points a), b) and d) if it wasn't the fact

he flipped scum

and therefore maybe you accept that it actually was because he was scum after all.

Can you explain why, if TMJ was such obvious scum, you weren't trying that hard to convince anyone else?

You ask that question as if I didn't get the guy I wanted lynched, lynched.

Let's just take at what your feelings about TMJ were:

@lapsa : when are you going to hammer?

Wow, I keep forgetting your in this game.

Any chance of some content before the day ends?

For instance, what are your thoughs on the Ari wagon and the people on it?

So you kept forgetting that obvious scum was in the game?

Wow. Just wow.

So because I wasn't convinced he was obvscum by post 700, which is clearly the first point in the game I started suspecting him, I guess I was bussing him after all. Is that what your trying to say?

But seriously, why is everything an attack with you? Why are you seemingly going through ISO just hoping to find ammunition. Because that seems to be what is happening here.

A while later you chose to focus on the fact that TMJ was continuing to not post as a reason for voting him. Total policy lynch as far as I can tell:

Its work hour here. Gonna reply in a few hours.

Your few hours have come and passed.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TMJ

You're wrong.

Then comes post 915 (which I wil not quote here in the interests of brevity, please follow the link earlier in this sentence to read it), with reasons not so strong that I would call TMJ "obvious" scum.

Now you're concerned about brevity. The short post, where I made the case for a TMJ lynch is suddenly the one thing not worth quoting. The post I list my fucking reasons. No, fuck it. This was sort scumminess needs to die.

unvote, vote BJI

A day later you're willing to let go of "obvious" scum to go after Titus:

unvote

VOTE: Titus

I'm around to switch to P.Brain if need be until the deadline.

No mention of TMJ.

So I left the wagon of the scumread I couldn't get lynched before the deadline, to help lynch the scumread I could get lynched before the deadline. Why do you think stuff is worth posting?

Next interaction is the one in which you ask TMJ whether or not he'd switch to Pea Brain.

That's it until Day 2 when suddenly you're so convinced of TMJ's guilt that you're on his wagon immediately and never leave it.

It's not clear to me exactly when TMJ went from "forgettable" to "obvious scum". I don't see a progression in this read, it goes straight from "forgettable" to "scum because he isn't posting/voting", to "obvious scum".

I'm not wasting more time on this. It's utterly absurd.

It's not clear to me exactly when TMJ went from "forgettable" to "obvious scum". I don't see a progression in this read, it goes straight from "forgettable" to "scum because he isn't posting/voting", to "obvious scum".

EBWOP: There is a progression here, but it's not very convincing, is what I meant to say. I just don't feel like step 2 (policy lynch vote) is a good bridge between step 1 ("forgettable") and step 3 ("obvious scum").

Yeah, except I never said he was a policy lynch. You know that because you ISOed me.

I have a working theory that SW replaced out because she felt little or no support from either scum partner. TMJ flipping scum makes half this case. The question then becomes who else would fit the bill as an unsupportive scum partner. PB seems like a really good choice. I can 100% see PB having some kind of weird sense of humor where he thought that it was cool to bus a partner by multi voting them like that. It fits with PB's other weird behavior.

It's a theory, one that I'm not sure holds a lot of weight, and I certainly

wouldn't

let guide a lynch.

Did you mistype that? I don't understand why you would say that the theory doesn't hold alot of weight but that you'd let it guide a lynch. Can you clarify?

Fixed.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I don't see what being interesting has to do with anything. He was fairly obviously scum. When you say "The fact that you, VDA, would go directly after TMJ of all people at the beginning of Day 2," who exactly think I should be going after?

You quoted my question but you didn't answer it.

Sorry. I was more interested in your assertion that TMJ was an "obvious" scum. However, to answer your question: there were alot of juicy targets at the beginning of Day 2 (Ari's neighborizer claim had been unverified, Pea Brain and Gliffie were topics of general interest, etc).

I was more suspicious of TMJ than all those players.

Also, regarding your recent vote on me, why do you get so freaked out and go all OMGUS all the time? I think my points are reasonable. There is little to no evidence that one could ever put out in this game that is not to some degree a matter of interpretation, and there are always reasonable doubts about everything. Just because I found some of your actions suspicious, and then you specifically ask me to give you details, and then I give you all the details I can think of ... that's your reason for voting me? Can you explain how your vote is not the text book definition of OMGUS?

Your points aren't remotely reasonable. The fact your having to stretch to make them is scummy. The same way in which you were trying to stretch to make a case against me yesterday. If I find myself asking repeated "how could town post this stuff?", then I just follow the obvious and the conclusion is, this player can't be town.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Also, Victor, if the day 1 and day 2 scum were so obvious, can you say who the obvious day 3 scum is?

Not with any degree of certainty I'm afraid (and I don't know if I ever went as far as to say that SW/Titus was obvscum).

[VictorDeAngelo]

Choas Omega, EPM, don't let the dead players outpost. Get in here and tell us what your thinking?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Choas Omega, EPM, don't let the dead players outpost you. Get in here and tell us what your thinking?

That makes more sense.

[VictorDeAngelo]

UNVOTE:

Looking back over the VCA, I'm no longer as sure on BJI. I sense I could just be confusing bad play with scum play. If you are town BJI, don't be too surprised if I have some advice at the end of the game.

I have to reread a Scum-West game to see if this kill would make sense in his meta. I'm torn right now on it.

If you get the chance, could you also see how he busses, as I wondering whether to clear him based on his votes on SW. At the very least, I'm not interested in lynching West at this point.

My one worry is a PK informed third-party. If we find what I presume to be the last Mafia by whittling down the pool, he would be in a good spot to take the game if so. He would also be free to play townleader as he has been, as he would be anti-mafia.

It's somewhat unlikely. If PK is third party that would mean SK in a mini normal. And that seems unlikely given what is already known about the setup. In the unlikely event there was a SK it is often the case that there is only a two man scumteam, and in that case I think these guy would be far less likelier to bus.

I have two main leads in mind for the last scum, but I need specific people to start talking again to be sure. So I'm somewhat at a waiting game.

[VictorDeAngelo]

@1178

Gliffie, Why would a phantom SK kill Dooku? Why would you assume additional killing roles at this early juncture?

Because he is scumz.

See, *Johnny* was saying Gliffie is likely scum, not West is likely town.

Eb Wop

So if we take someone else's quote, and then append our own statement, that means they were saying it now?

[VictorDeAngelo]

I mean I was setting the trap to say that and now you ruined it

*insert puffy cheek angry anime girl image*

You poor thing VDA

That doesn't answer anything.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Bad idea to eliminate the people who voted for SW and/or TJM. Just look at how hard Titus was trying to get rid of TJM.

Homestly Victor is not a bad vote

but I'll go into depth when I'm on a computer about who our best choices are based on the votes

can I just sheep VDA for the rest of the game?

What changed EPM?

How do you feel about sheeping me if I told you are currently one of my main scumspects?

[VictorDeAngelo]

FWIW; West is currently in my "I do lynch want to lynch this player today" pile. I advise everyone on the West to either get off, or tell me why I'm wrong.

A thought: West is third party. He doesn't care about finding scum, just about making sure that he lives. What kind of role does that? I don't even know. Someone who knows the roles better might fill in the blanks.

I think what you're trying to describe here is the Survivor role. Personally' I'm subscribing to the simpler explanation that West = town.

[VictorDeAngelo]

FWIW; West is currently in my "I do lynch want to lynch this player today" pile. I advise everyone on the West to either get off, or tell me why I'm wrong.

You are the master of typos that say the opposite of what you mean. I think you meant "I do NOT want to lynch this player today" - right?

Yep, West is in my town pile.

[VictorDeAngelo]

So about that West lynch.

Still not interested.

Also my lynch pool is at PoE.

VOTE: Evil Pacman

If it's not him, it's Pisskop.

[VictorDeAngelo]

What's with the neighborhood?? Has anyone been added? Who was supposed to be in it? I'm surprised there's less talk about it

What's to talk about. We know from bji that the neighbourhood is real. I don't know what revelation you expect to emerge from discussing it.

So about that West lynch.

Still not interested.

Also my lynch pool is at PoE.

VOTE: Evil Pacman

If it's not him, it's Pisskop.

This is reckless. I agree it could be pisskop but you can't possibly be sure enough about West and Chaos for this to be a good idea

I feel like if it was either West or Chaos, someone would provided a convincing argument for either of them being scum.

But you know what, I'm here. Convince me I'm wrong.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Actually PK has to be scum, thinking about it for a sec. There's no reason not to come right out with that information

Huh?

[VictorDeAngelo]

unvote

Like if pisskop knew there were no investigative roles, why didn't he say so in his first post? There's no reason to hold onto that information

What? There's like plenty of reasons to hold onto that information. Hell, if Pisskop is town, I'd go as far to see he screwed up his role by claiming his info as early as he did.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I discounted the possibility of Ari being scum ever since TMJ flipped red. So should everyone else.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Pisskop, do you actually understand what vca is? As in, what vca requires beyond simple colouring in different people after they've flipped?

Because my vca says lynch EPM.

[VictorDeAngelo]

1. EPM is the one unflipped player who wasn't on the Titus/SW wagon. In fact he started pushing P.Brain right when Titus needed a distraction (yet to kept clear of TMJ).

2. TMJ didn't try to deflect on EPM Day 2 when he was going down. In fact TMJ didn't mention EPM at all.

It all points to EPM being the last scum.

[VictorDeAngelo]

And so does West not being one scumwagons, with the one exception being a minor wagon on SW and when Titus was sinking.

a) West was on SW long before you were.

b) Given the choice between tying the votes with Brain and putting a nail in Titus' coffin, he voted Titus. Why would scum choose that?

And if he was so keen to bus SW/Titus, why did he then get so reluctant to bus TMJ?

[VictorDeAngelo]

I discounted the possibility of Ari being scum ever since TMJ flipped red. So should everyone else.

Why

TMJ tried to get Lapsa to hammer Ari, after Ari claimed neighbour. If Ari was his buddy and he knew Ari could prove his role, why would he do that?

[VictorDeAngelo]

VDA, what's the Pisskop case?

Mostly unanswered questions.

1) There seems to be no scum on the early Pisskop wagon, which seems odd if Pisskop is town.

2) There's some setup stuff but I'll come back to that after the massclaim.

3) I'm been getting bad vibes off his constant talk of how he got Titus lynched. And yet looking back there were actually several players scumreading SW before Pisskop. I'm getting slight vibes of a player who saw Titus going down, hard bussed when a gap emerged and now desperately trying to make himself appear cleared because of it.

4) I'm pretty PoE here but I'm confident Ari is town, I'm relatively confident your town based on your vote that put Titus at L-2, and I think Chaos is town because there three wagons at the end of Day 1 and the other two were scum. That means it's EPM or PK.

That all said I actually think it's far likelier it's EPM than PK. West, what are you currently thinking? Do you need a case on Pacman?

Also, I'm vt. Dunno where the popcorn is but there you go.

[VictorDeAngelo]

EPM, how about instead of telling us what we should be thinking, you tell us what you are thinking currently.

[VictorDeAngelo]

"I can't wait til they're all done talking so we can lynch Wake and get this over with"

Wake isn't scum. Not here, at least.

Nah, Wake's always scum.

But seriously, EPM, what did you mean here?

But I still would like to lynch West over Pacman.

Lets all weigh in on this NL. If nobody has informative things to say, we need to decide on the best lynch option.

I see zero value in no lynching. Every nk has had the whiff of wifom to the point where I don't think they are worth analysing. Frankly, the game feels like it's stalling out and I'd rather just get it over with than dragging it out further.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Huh, that is odd. Is he posting in the neighbour chat?

[VictorDeAngelo]

2) There's some setup stuff but I'll come back to that after the massclaim.

So what was this about?

OK, setup analyse time:

Town
1 1-shot vig
1 Jailer
1(?) Informed Townie
1(?) Neighbouriser
6-7 vt

Scum
2 mafia goons
1 ???

I am somewhat unsure about whether there is a single normal scum role (it has to be normal as PK has the one non-normal role allowed) that could balance this game. Particularly since the main scum roles of benefit would investigative roles (which cc PK anyway).

Goon, Godfather, Encryptor, Strongman, Ninja, Traitor

Well goon gives the mafia a mountainous setup against a heavily powered town, so let's rule that out. Traitor is worse than goon, so let's rule that out as well. Ninja and godfather are irrelevent with the town roles present. Strongman would somewhat bastardly against a jailkeeper in a game with no investigative roles. Encryptor seems unlikely just because of how bad the scum did day 1 (no way TMJ plays that way if his buddies are on hand to guide him). So what's left. Either the scum had a protection role to prevent the vigshot (which I'd surprised by) or they had a jack of all trades (which didn't have any investigative roles). I can't rule the last four options definitively, but my guy says no.

On the other hand, let's put Pisskop into the scum column. Suddenly the informed role makes more sense. Why tell the town they are short in power? Just in case bold scum claim cop. Seems weak and dare I say unnessecary. However, compare that information value to scum. Suddenly, knowing the town has no investigative, gives them a good chance of cracking the setup, and leaves them open some counterclaims.

tl:dr Informed scum balances against the town powers better against the other three town powers better than I can see a single scum role balancing against the combination of the other four.

And yeah, before Pisskop or someone else says, I am essentially declaring Ari town to make this jump. I don't think that's bad leap at all at this point.

Pisskop attempt to use the views in the nieghbourhood also feels pretty scummmy to me.

So how about instead of no lynching, people at least make their case about who they want to lynch. Because the whole 1/5 and 1/3 is better than 1/6 then 1/4 argument for no lynching only makes sense if we were sitting around here with everyone being an equal lynch, and I don't believe that is the case.

[VictorDeAngelo]

You pushing for my lynch feels pretty scummy to me.

Well you OMGUSing feels pretty scummy to me.

You just ran the setup spec and conlcuded that scum is unlikely to have another goon. You're right; a scum neighborizer would help with their imbalence.

Yeah, well shame for you that Ari is a strong townread for me then.

What use do scum have knowing they are informed?

You know, if you read my post instead of simply quoting it and calling me scummy, you might know the answer to this.

How does scum being informed about the lack of investigative roles balance neighborizers, vigs, and jailer you asshat?

This is quite a reaction by Pisskop.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Then what about me 1v1ing Titus into oblivion? You have the evidence in front of you and you continually drift away from it.

Like I said earlier, there were several serious votes on SW/Titus before you. You would have been bussing hard, but considering only one player was off the wagon, that's something I have to consider anyway if Pacman flips town.

And rather than actually answer my questions you accuse me of omgus. Nice.

I didn't realise "You pushing for my lynch feels pretty scummy to me." was a question.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I didn't realise "You pushing for my lynch feels pretty scummy to me." was a question.

How does scum being informed about the lack of investigative roles balance neighborizers, vigs, and jailer you asshat?

Walk me through it.

Oh that was meant to be a serious question, I thought you were just being rude.

Did you read my original post PK. I did try to explain. Informed is valuable to scum because it rules a number of valuable town roles (cop, tracker, watcher, etc) so it helps them:

a) Decide their play. Since scum know that there aren't any chance of being investigated there's less chance of town's being able to PoE and with no night actions, that there's less risk based around targetting a known PR.
b) Decide their safeclaims. Normals won't give out safeclaims, but if there are no town investigative roles, that means scum could get bold and claim a PR.
c) Narrow down the setup. Scum hunts PRs and breadcrumbs. Knowing what is, and isn't a viable role helps with that.

There's also the possibility that your straight lying about being informed, and instead you simply took a stab based upon the scum roles (scum can take a guess at what is and isn't in a game based upon their own PRs).

[VictorDeAngelo]

So, purely in theory.

You believe that scum knowing that there are no investigative roles is the equal to a 1shot vig, a full jailer, and a neighborizer?

It's possible there's more to your role. At this point I can only speculate.

. You further believe that scum wouldn't benifit more from a role not in this game?

Sure, but as I said, I'm having a hard time find a role to balance against all four, and out of the two unflipped roles, you're the one I find most suspicious.

And in the scenario I am lying.

a) What are the odds that I would be able to make that claim rather than claim cop? Or tracker or watcher?

I don't know you well enough to be able to answer this.

b) by your admission I would be a third goon?

Not at all. In fact I am confident the final scum is not a goon.

Your tryhard is truely with merit, but lets roll out the statisitics.
. While here, let's talk from a theory perspective some more.

Why would being an informed scum be worth more than being a scum neighborizer?

I'm not entirely sure it would be, but again, and I can't stress this enough, Ari is my strongest townread, and until that changes the discussion is somewhat moot.

[VictorDeAngelo]

He's aware that informed doesnt balance jailer vig, and neighborizer.

I believe I addressed this.

He's confirmed that if I was an informed scum who knew that town couldn't CC me I could claim cop or Tracker.

Actually, now you bring it up, these two claims have problems. Cop is a powerful PR, one which would have raised eyebrow if it survived too long. Tracker on the other hand couldn't be faked, as you had no way of tracking players.

He knows that at the time I joined the SW wagon she had a following, who summarily left that wagon and rejoined due to my diligence.

I think I already mentioned that I believe you've been trying to take too much credit for the SW/Titus wagon.

[VictorDeAngelo]

VDA continues to flagrantly disregard the odds and is for some reason pushing the most unlikely lynch of all the players.

What??? You have EPM in your little lynchpool.

And I find really odd that Ari has suddenly moved out of the lynchpool as well.

[VictorDeAngelo]

What are you talking about?

And I do have EPM in my pool.

I think you misread my post. I said you

had

EPM in your lynchpool.

[VictorDeAngelo]

You have EPM in your little lynchpool.

Odds. Im not interested in shoving a specific lynch down the throats of people. There's one scun left, and only a few possible scum choices.

Prolasped was mostly ruled out.
I've claimed and I took out Titus

leaving VDA, West, EPM, and Ari.

Of those, Ari and VDA have fair reasons to support their innocence.

So that leaves West and EPM

[VictorDeAngelo]

So I'm not sure what confusing people.

EPM and West have zero to little redeeming features about them.
VDA and Ari are a tier up, with pros and cons to lynching them.
Prolapsed and I I consider almost above reproach.

Of all of this, I would want to lynch West, EPM, and Ari.

Yesterday I wanted to lynch Texcat, West, or EPM. Ari came under suspicion after I saw the terrible neighborhood and his negligence of the game.

[VictorDeAngelo]

So. What. is. confusing. you.

I obviously don't know what you were trying to argue then.

[VictorDeAngelo]

If people want to no lynch, then let's no lynch before discussion.

So if you want a no lynch, vote for it in your next post.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Or actually just say yes or no to the no lynch before voting. There may be more to discuss but if we're no lynching toDay I would like to minimise discussion about reads beforehand.

[VictorDeAngelo]

OK, well no lynch it is.

VOTE: No Lynch

[VictorDeAngelo]

So I go to sleep and it's NL and wake up and we lost. Someone's got some explaining to do....

[VictorDeAngelo]

It will be interesting to see the chats when their open, but honestly I still don't get what is considered a balanced setup on this forum. In my mind 10 vt vrs 3 goons is pretty much balanced and in this game, if just one of the town PRs had played well (I might retract this comment after seeing the neighbourhood but everyone who was invited seemed unimpressed) I think any scumteam has a hard time winning this one. The Lapsa vigshot on Dooku was a stroke of luck.

Titus played well all things considered. Chaos did as well, although I regret letting him lurk as he did in the last few days. I possible made the biggest mistake pushing the NL on the penultimate Day, when really I should somewhat predicated that I would be he NK, and just pushed the game to the end with 4 players.

[VictorDeAngelo]

i had to shoot - wasn't wrong on that. had 2 targets in mind - TMJ and Dooku. TMJ seemed like an obvscum that would be lynched anyway - got that correct too.

If you honestly don't think you screwed up here Lapsa then I don't know what to say. Not shooting would have been better. Even if your role demanded you shoot night 1, then arguably any other player alive in the game at the time would have been a better target.

[VictorDeAngelo]

i had to shoot - wasn't wrong on that. had 2 targets in mind - TMJ and Dooku. TMJ seemed like an obvscum that would be lynched anyway - got that correct too.

If you honestly don't think you screwed up here Lapsa then I don't know what to say. Not shooting would have been better. Even if your role demanded you shoot night 1, then arguably any other player alive in the game at the time would have been a better target.

Its always easy to look back. But until i flip, it is always "seems"

?????

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Victor what made you a better target than Dooku? please do argue

I was vt. If I get vigged night 1 then the town doesn't lose a valuable PR.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Even if Dooku had been vt, what did the shot get us.

Dooku's flip gave us no information and did not take away a potential mislynch IMO.

Even if we argue that it was better to vig Dooku over vigging me, that's a long way from saying Lapsa made the correct play based upon the available information.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Dooku was not a bad vig. He was my townbeard at the start. So was bji. My flip after really set bji straight though.

I would have to say Johnny town mvp though.


@Gliffe, what do you mean?

I find this really odd. IIRC bji was the only player with all three scum in his scumreads and I don't remember Johnny doing much this game at all.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I feel better about losing this game knowing that Chaos put some good thought into the NKs. As a town, we still shouldn't have allowed you to lurk out the last few Days as much as we did, and c'est la vie.