Mini 1687: Refraction Mafia (WINNER!)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Mathdino

[BlueBloodedToffee]

4 pages already.

Nice.

Will try read up at some point tonight.

UNVOTE:

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Are you serious guys? 8 pages already.

I'm gonna try and catch up now/tonight.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hi Thor,

You wanna fight?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wouldn't that be a reason

not

to vote him? Sympathy...? Whatever.

Anyway are you just voting whoever or are you purposefully voting with me?

Math, why did you choose Plot as opposed to any of the players who were voting you?

Yeah, I hadn't looked at the meta when I voted him. It was the tone of the post. After looking at it the meta part isn't so convincing to me, but hey it's page one.

I don't like this post. You agreed with the vote before checking if it was legit?

I don't get the problem with the tone of the post either.

Frogger why no vote? Also, reads?

Plotinus, reads on Frogger so far then?

Froggers over defencive response is kinda reinforcing my read right now considering he just made a point that his scumhunting will show he's town, not his meta.

You're trying too hard here. I'm surprised Fro99er even responded with reads, you would have got 'lol, page 2' from me.

Since when is being defensive a scum tell? What is the problem with the scum hunting comment?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright looking back I think texcat's suspicions and questioning seem not-really-scumhunty and forced. The backing off thing she claimed tool did is stretchy too.

VOTE: texcat

Yo texcat

, could you explain what you wanted to get out of the question you asked Plotinus on reading Frogger? Did you find it scummy or were you trying to clarify, or...?

Dislike this vote. I thought Tex's vote and reasoning were pretty decent for that point in the game.

abuse has actually stepped into scumread from this past conversation. He seems to be doing a lot of "arguing that people are wrong" and not much of "arguing people are scum". He starts what amounts to a useless semantics debate with Shinobi and (correct me if I'm wrong) spent a page arguing that Plotinus's vote 'looks bad' and not 'scummy'.

@abuse

, what are your scumreads? What's your read on Plotinus? Shinobi? Lapsa?

UNVOTE: texcat
VOTE: Lapsa

FoS: abuse

Edit: @BBT: JP Mafia all over again, eh? Now you know how I felt

Where did the scum read on Tex go?

Why are you voting Lapsa over abuse?

Can you clarify what your last comment means? It feels like you're talking to me as if you know I'm town...

Motivation to understand - Naked votes are confusing. Shinobi pushing back immediately suggests Shinobi is trying to understand the game state, which is a town mentality.

Or it's scum taking the opportunity to attack a naked vote.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Lapsa would just be a pressure vote, I don't have a read on him yet. Pressure votes are cool and all, but...
Abuse is actually playing scummy, imo. 67 reads super fake. Frogger's posted opinions on Platonius 2 or 3 times; it was a question already answered in the thread. Also, calling something 'interesting' as a synonym for scummy I am not down with. (He clearly was implying scummy, otherwise he wouldn't be interrogating Frogger or using a pejorative)
VOTE: Abuse

Why wait so long to place the vote? You posted a few times (3?) after his oh so scummy 67, why the vote now?

Zoro - agree RE: Plotinus.

Ploti's honesty reads towny to me. He provided a link to the vanilla crumb from a previous game, he's got the right mindset about Lapsa when he responded to you about "towning up the slot on page 3". I can possibly write off his early passiveness toward me as just truthful honesty instead. He eventually backed up a read on me as well.

Your reversal on the Plot read happened quickly. Really quickly.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Abuse

Really???

C'mon man. Work with me here. I'm trying to get you to participate without just voting at you until you do. Because that's the other option, and I find that clouds the situation and gives lots of false positives.

Just training along with a town read isn't scummy, I wasn't trying to trap question you. I'm trying to get you into the game here.

This feels town.

I don't believe Lapsa is being this obviously anti-town/scummy as a scum player

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Mathdino

Too scummy to be scum really isn't a thing. Sometimes, scum are just bad.

CB's catch up was also pretty good and replicated a lot of my own thoughts as I was reading up, don't agree with the end vote though.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright, I just skimmed the past page or so because I'm not reading those walls.

Town reading CB, Zoro, Fro99er, Plot, & Tex. In that order.

Thor is tunneling which makes it difficult to get a read on him. Need some more posts from Shinobi to develop a read, same for CD.

Will vote Abuse, Math, Lapsa or Tool Today.

VOTE: Math

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Sorry about my inactivity guys.

I have too many games on my plate right now and I'm doing my best to cope. The walls in this game are giving me no incentive to read either, so....yeah, low priority right now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You think I care what you want?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

prodge ffs

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright, got some time.

Can you explain these reads for me pls?
Specifically the bolded.

My town read on Plot is fairly weak but it's based on her vote of Lapsa in 61 (which was my immediate gut reaction when I read it) and 70 was a good post. Not the part about the crumbing VT spec, but the part where she says she was testing Fro99er. This feels like it comes from town.

Abuse mostly came down to 155, in which he scum reads and votes Zoro for what I feel are pretty bad reasons. Especially when I feel quite good that Zoro is town.

Tool is down to early game, in particular the sheeping of Math in 19 and I really didn't like 24. I also had no idea how he was town reading Lapsa in 119.

Talk to me about Tool, I have him in my ??? pile.

See above.

1. Not sure I understand. Most of the people voting me seemed to pretty clearly be wagoning, and I wasn't sure about Plot, and I figure asking questions in RVS is better than twiddling your thumbs until someone else does.
2. I feel as if continuing to restate my case against Frogger will give people the impression that I'm still scumreading him, so I'm going to assume people are reading my 158 and won't misunderstand me.
Idea is that Frogger responded to accusations by claiming that his scumhunting will show that he's town... and then proceeded to make a bunch of overdefencive posts that contain 0 scumhunting and all defence. By his self-meta, I took that to be very non-townish.

I guess I just didn't understand your position. I mean, if I'm in your position, I'm much more interested in looking at the people who are wagoning me early then looking at one person who voted to make a two-man wagon because they voted with me.

I mean, you hardly gave Fro99er time to scum hunt before you started accusing him of being (over) defensive. Being defensiveness is not a scum tell, I wish people would stop trying to make out that it is. If somebody attacks you, you're going to defend yourself, and for some people, defending yourself comes before you start the scum hunting.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It’s interesting that he mentions me but he doesn’t ask me any questions or interact with me yet. I want him to be town because we’ve been town together at least 3 times already and it was really fun but unfortunately I am null on BBT.

I don’t know about his push on Fro99er in 193; fro99er’s evolving read on me didn’t seem all that quick in real time.

BBT, why are you town reading CB he was throwing shade on a whole bunch of slots in his only post?

I'm town Plot. There, I hope I eased your worries.

As for Fro99er;

Plotinus is in my nullscum pile as of now. I do like Ploti's pressure of Lapsa and agree with it. I do like he's being truthful about my play. I didn't like his passiveness on me, and the weak test. I did not like the pointing out of the crumb either.

Zoro - agree RE: Plotinus.

Ploti's honesty reads towny to me. He provided a link to the vanilla crumb from a previous game, he's got the right mindset about Lapsa when he responded to you about "towning up the slot on page 3". I can possibly write off his early passiveness toward me as just truthful honesty instead. He eventually backed up a read on me as well.

I'm not sure how you don't see that as a quick turn around. In 102 you're 'nullscum' and in the space of 9 posts you're now 'towny'. Hmm.

I already stated why I thought CB was town; a lot of his thoughts in his catch up post were the same as mine as I was catching up. This means he is likely viewing the game from the same mindset that I am, so he can be town.

Okay so.
firstoff UNVOTE:

I'd want to start by explaining thoroughly the previous shinobi/abuse/plotinus thingie concerning lapsa's crumb, because I think this is important.
First off, I want to make it clear that I know how lapsa plays. The main thing I can tell you, is that pretty much everything he does right now is null. Everything you think he is saying that seems scummy, is null, everything he says that seems townie, is also null. Things he says are quite likely lies, but could be truth aswell, In any case - there is no way to know

yet.

The reason I poked plotinus, about him voting for lapsa was to see if he was newbish or scum. Because his vote was fishy.
I know Lapsa, many people here do not. My conversation with him was to find out. His defense of the lapsa vote was that neither vanillas nor mafia benefit from a claim such as that. That is correct- i pointed that there is another role that would benefit from it. He understood what I talked about, that should've been it.
The interesting part though, is that shinobi intervened, and followed up trying to get me to say what exactly do I mean by that. I honestly think that what I said was obvious. Getting me to say it out loud, can be classified as both PR hunting, or trapping me for pointing to PR's instead of scum.
The only thing is - again - I know how Lapsa plays, so basically I can tell you with 99.9% certainty, that that was not a crumb at all. I knew this pretty much for sure, they did not. This allowed me to judge their reactions about the scenario. Overall, from this alone, there's a picture of plotinus and shinobi. Plotinus came out with a slight town lean, while shinobi with a slight scum lean from that alone. Though Shinobi's posts interacting with zoro put him back in the null zone.

This was an awful lot of words to say 'Lapsa is null, it's too early to read him and I'm leaning town on Plotinus and null on Shinobi via interactions around vanilla crumb.'

snip, reads list

The timing of this reads list is icky. It's like you saw Math do one and thought 'Ohh, that looks town. Let me try it.'

UNVOTE:

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Kind of where I am at right now I have only skimmed the last couple of pages though:
Town: Frogger, Texcat
Scum Lean: Math, Abuse
Scum: Plot, Zoro

I will say just based on some interaction between the people on my list there is for sure town in my scum reads right now since I don't see a lot of those people as scum partners. So I don't feel too confident about them right now.

Yeah, you're right. Take Plot and Zoro out of your scum reads. Probably Math as well.

congratulations, you qualify as my first real scumread. gonna tunnel you for the rest of the game

VOTE: CB

official reason: you shouldn't base your votes on so little information

LOL. After your 126, you really shouldn't make accusations like this.

@CB - why is Zoronos scummier to you than Mathdino? I am not a fan of either slot - but my issues with Zoronos are basically the same as my issues with Mathdino, except Mathdino appears to have an agenda while Zoronos is just being wonky for no apparent reason beyond desperate Mathdino defense...which would suggest Mathdino as scum anyways, so.

Clarify?

No. There is no way Zoro/Math are scum together.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I agree Plotinus was noncommittal (I even pointed it out that Plot was being passive on his read toward me, and I had to push Plot to give a read about me). This is not a misrep by CB.

Then CB makes the point that Plot votes Lapsa for softing vanilla, which is true. Also not a misrep.

CB makes the point that Plot saw VT soft VT in a game of his, yet votes Lapsa for softing VT. Also not a misrep.

The rest is a bit of theory/WIFOM discussion.

Plot's read on CB seems forced and OMGUS'y. He doesn't state WHY he thinks CB is Lynchhunting instead of scumhunting (examples or explanation would be nice), and feels like CB is going for low hanging fruit. Who is low hanging fruit here? He hasn't since interacted with CB, when I'd expect Plot would want to push a scumread, no? He's also hardly pushed on Lapsa since the fruit crumb other than post 252 calling Lapsa out for reading comprehension. But even that wasn't a push on Lapsa as scum, just more a clarification of Plot's BBT stance.

Unfortunately, I like my vote better served here.

VOTE: Plotinus

This looks like 4 votes on Plotinus, putting him at L-3 if I can count correctly.

This is pretty solid posting from Fro99er.

I'm at a loss in coming up for a town!Mathdino motivation for making such a strong declarative statement regarding the chances of a random slot being scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mathdino

Is this the worst reasoning for a serious vote in the history of Mafia? Probably not. But it's pretty bad.

Also: I'm disliking Abuse more (for his "HUGE RED FLAG" BS on page 11). Also disliking Lapsa more for the apparent misrep on CB.

You should vote Abuse instead.

i think i can answer the low hanging fruit / lynch hunting thing too actually.

The way you started this post is pinging me pretty hard. It's like you thought about answering Fro99er's accusations the first time around but couldn't think of a decent explanation and then you had another think about it and something came to you that you thought you could use.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Update: if i were to be on a wagon, itd be CB.

Why?

Because in addition to 10:3 being a thing, 9:4, 9:3;1, and 9:2:2 are things as well. Focusing on the former has the appearance of you having knowledge of the makeup of the scum team. IOW, it has the appearance of a scumslip.

If you really are town, you might want to avoid assumptions like that in the future.

This is weak. I approach every mini with the 10:3 mindset and it's only ever been multi-ball once (and that was just over a year ago now).

Yes. I felt that all of your reads indicated a town mindset and way of thinking about the game. I just happened to disagree with literally 10/11 of your conclusions. I think Shinobi is playing fine but lean town, I think Zor is town, texcat is scumread, Thor is null, tool is town, okay CB I actually agree with too, BBT is null to light scumread, and we apparently both think Frogger is town but for very different reasons, reasons different enough for you to think that my reasons for townreading him are BS, as I understand?

I don't get the Tex scum read or the Tool town read. Can you talk about them?

so here's a contribution:

VOTE: Mathdino

you've been warned multiple times and I'm sick of shielding your shit

Thor, you have a sheep for the rest of Day1

Wow. Definition of an opportunistic vote.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

was having trouble translating thoughts into language at the time, that’s all.

Hmm, I was correct to read that you had 'two' attempts at answering that accusation then?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

i perceive your last post to be the first one that shows me that you're invested in putting effort into this game

Colouring in some other people's posts and making a couple of comments = town? Really?

But it's still nitpicking and therefore looks like confirmation bias.

You understand that confirmation bias is something that town do and not scum, right?

Tool's posting on this page was somewhat good, I can follow his thoughts in what he is doing but I don't think it's particularly a particularly good method of scum hunting in this stage of the game. Tool, you're essentially doing VCA with no information whatsoever and I'm not sure what you're actually going to gain from it as anything you glean will be based on pure speculation.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'll finish the rest of the catch up tomorrow, it's late and I'm tired.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Update: Lapsa is now very squarely in my strong townreads list, consisting of {Zor, Plot, Frogger, Lapsa}.

What? How is Lapsa a strong town read?

The point being that I still see you using other player's arguments multiple times as partial or whole justification for your votes. Which can reflect: A) Desire to get on the good side of the players you're following, B) Pre-planning to avoid responsibility for those arguments in the future, C) Difficulty developing fake reads, or D) All of the above.

Given this, why do you not have a problem with Lapsa using Thor's case to vote Math? (with some added colours)

@texcat: You still have yet to give ANY reads other than tool even after I said so twice. That's what's most concerning about the latter half of your ISO.

I think this applies to Thor as well. As far as I know, he scum reads you and Zor and leans town on Plotinus. That's it. He's barely interacting with anyone outside of his math/zor discussion.

CB seems off, but not sure if it's because he's playing several games at once and doesn't pay enough attention here, or if he's scum.

What feels off about CB?

Thor, what do you think about Lapsa ?
I can't seem to find your stance on him anywhere.

Thor lacks a stance on many players.

Went through tool's ISO.
His mindset seems logical.

Umm, you don't think scum can think logically?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I am much more worried about this now, after skimming through some of his previous games.
He's much more aggressive when town. And just as defensy when scum. :/

But not worried enough to vote because...

probably town: abuse
maybe town: toolenduso, lapsa, math
could be town: chthulu, zoronos, thor, shinobi
could be scum: bbt, texcat,
maybe scum:
scum: cb, fro99er

Plot, can you explain the town reads on Abuse, Tool & Lapsa.

Your reads are near enough the polar opposite of mine and that is a worrying sign indeed.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Could you elaborate on that?

Context: Talking about why I liked Fro99er's 280

I liked it because it was solid analysis. The fact that Fro99er even went back to check to see if what Plot was saying was true earns him town points.

Well yeah, a lot of D1 is speculation. We don't have flips. I still feel like voting patterns are a good thing to consider when looking for scum.

They're not because you don't know what the votes mean.

Zoro lacks the paranoia I expect out of town he is too confident on his town reads on too little

This really pings for me.
You can be town now.

Unvote: Mathdino
Vote: Zoronos

Wanna sheep me while I sheep you?

Thor is probably scum. Or he's having a really, really bad game. Probably scum though.

Also, where did this daytalk stuff come from? Scumslip

VOTE: Plotinus

Requesting a sheep on here

I don't see the scum slip. But I kind of like the vote. Usually, Plot makes herself town pretty quickly and I just haven't got that vibe from her this game at all.

For the one question that didn't have an answer in there Math's wagon feels off TO ME, because an extremely large percentage of first lynches with similar reasoning end up in a town lynch, in my experience. I want to hear from Victor before I think more about this.
for now : UNVOTE:

What reasoning would this be?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Zoronos

Why?

Your voting has been pretty bad for the whole game. You're quick to get on wagons early when it seems that person is/will be under pressure.

Likewise. Why are you still not voting for anyone?

Because I recently unvoted Math and I haven't finished catching up.

(yeah, bbt not voting is weird)

What is weird about me not voting?

Is that honestly all you took from a huge readlist like that?

Yes, yes it is.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Plot, Frogger, and Math are quite likely town. Frogger more so than Plot (Frogger is trying to be heard, check his interaction with Abuse when Abuse town read him. Frogger wants responsibility), but Plot is probably still town so w/e.
Shinobi and BBT are lean town. I also choose to file Lapsa as lean town because his posting makes me laugh.

Zor, can you explain town read on Plotinus please?

Also, this is the second time you have used 'his posting makes me laugh' as a reason to town read Lapsa. Do you have anything that's actually alignment indicative?

Glad you asked because people are treating my analysis like the sole basis of my scumhunting is whether or not people sheep and I don't know if I've been wording my posts confusingly or what. So here it goes:

-Lots of people sheep. Sheeping, by itself is not scummy.
-Frogger has sheeped multiple times.
-Frogger has also switched his votes after criticism from other players.
-When I look at all of this, along with Frogger's overall posting, it looks like his movements are calculated to appease people.

Alright, I can see where you're coming from but I disagree with your conclusion.

yeah, i haven’t efforted this game as much as usual though i did some today. It’s not alignment indicative. i think i have been playing more like i did in elemental mafia (was hanging back there a lot) and I think it’s because that was one of the last games I started. I’m better as a replacement because I can hit the ground running, usually with pages of notes already done. This game, I’m behind on my private notes (except for fro99er’s).

Yeah, that's not it. IIRC, I still town read you pretty early in elemental mafia (and that held all game until we were looking for SK) so something is definitely up this game.

I liked lapsa’s coloured numbers thing, how he quoted people and pointed to things that didn’t match up. i didn’t like his earlier posting but i like that he’s trying to contribute and making original points. part of the townread is rewarding him for contributing and scum hunting.

None of that was his own work; he picked other people's post and found contradictions. Whoopdedoo, everybody contradicts themselves at some point.

People are town reading Lapsa for the strangest reasons.

Even if you disagreed with my fro99er push, did you understand where I was coming from?

No, I don't think I could. That's another reason I think you could be scum this game, Fro99er has again obvtowned himself. Though, I have to admit, at the latter stages of the discussion between you two, I started to glaze over.

If there is something you really want me to look at, quote it/bullet point it concisely please.

PEdit - Fro99er, I like where your head is at.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright, I'm fully caught up.

VOTE: Thor

This needs to happen.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Also, we have 23 pages of information now.

That's more than enough content to analyze in the coming days.

Votes should be consolidating and we should be looking to move into D2.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VC 1.7

Zoronos

-

Thor665, Lapsa, abuse

(L-4)

This wagon is ugly.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Unvote: Mathdino
Vote: Zoronos

snip

VOTE: tool

VOTE: Zoronos

Alright, the collapse of the Math wagon was pretty weird.

I unvoted during my catch up and then 3 more unvotes (above) within a page of each other.

Thor's vote is terrible, he seems determined to lynch town.

Abuse's vote out of the 3 is the best, but not by much. I over-edited his post by accident and wanted to point something out. Abuse, after myself and Thor unvote Math, now states that 'something is off about the Math wagon' and proceeds to jump off without explaining what exactly was off about it (I think he does later on, but, that's not the point). The point is, he has jumped off the wagon as it's on the decline without good reasoning and used poor reasoning to place a vote on Tool.

Lapsa's vote is just as bad as all his other votes this game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You're complaining about the collapse of a wagon I built (and you supported), and then complaining that I seem determined to lynch town.
So, even if MD is town and you puzzled this out - why complain that other people also withdrew?
And if you think he's scummy - why unvote or think I'm trying to lynch town based off only Zoronos?
Also, why do you think Zoronos is town? Have you read what he's saying currently? I rarely feel like a case is such a clear cut obvious - nd yet other people aren't noticing it. Are you reading our back and forth at all? And if 'yes' why are you okay with what he's saying? Do you think it's reasonable to call his "interpretations" simply that as opposed to lies?

You pushed Math a lot longer than I did. My vote on the Math wagon would not have stayed for so long had I had the time to actually play this game.

Just because I think someone being wagoned is town, that doesn't mean I can't look at why people jumped off. Scum vote town you know.

Zor is town because nearly everything he posts screams town.

I'm not reading your back and forth. It's too long and tres boring. I think Zor is town, and you're scum. That's all I need to know.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Agreed - but you were appearing to question the speed at which it unraveled. In my experience that's usually something people note when they feel it is scum avoiding a wagon, and sually the implication is that the wagonee is scum, not town. Your reversal of the thought process is confusing to me, which is why I asked about it.
It remains confusing.

Indeed, I was questioning the speed in which is unraveled. You are also correct in that I think it was scum avoiding a wagon. The implication is I think scum thought that wagon was about to go downhill and jumped off before their votes looked stale. I should make clear, your unvote is NOT my primary reason for scum reading you. The Math wagon collapsing was something I noted as I was catching up and wanted to look into once I had finished.

Zor is town because nearly everything he posts screams town.

Like?

You can pick any one of them. It's town.

Could you go and read simply my last two posts with him and his response to them?
I'd like you to read my posts prior to claiming I'm scum, and I'd like you to read his prior to claiming he's town.

I'm really not interested in doing this.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm not sure that's a valid read of the wagon. You unvoted it and opposed it, but, frankly, CB was in mild support of it and could have ended up joining, and it was my leaving that moved Lapsa as he is apparently sheeping me still. Eh, I don't even get the 'stale' issue - I've never used that as a tell on anyone, the most I complain about is if they aren't pushing a wagon.

I mean, you're entitled to your opinion I guess. The collapse of the Math wagon was very strange and happened pretty quickly with nobody actually stating they think Math could be town. They all just moved onto new suspects.

I unvoted and you unvoted. That moved Math to L-4 and very clearly puts the wagon on the decline, whether one person was possibly joining it or not. This forces scum to make a move, especially as you were the one doing all the leg work on the Math wagon. You're good enough as scum to do this, your buddies may not be. Once your push on the Math wagon is gone, who else is pushing it? Lapsa? Hardly.

You don't seem to have a problem with Lapsa sheeping you. May I ask why? Especially as you don't seem to have a read on him. Why are you not interacting with him to develop a read?

Why not? I'm flat out basing my case on him off a point being discussed there.
Can you even describe my issue with him - since you have such an issue with me voting him? Like, do you understand what I'm calling his lie and can describe it to me?

Why is so much of this game apparently stoked about saying stuff about things they are not reading? You're at least the third - it's really not happy making for me.

Because it's difficult to insert yourself into two people's wall offs. I have reads on you and Zor independent of the discussion you two have going on.

As I understand it, you seem to think Zor is claiming Math said things that Math claims he did not say and thus Zor is scum because Math didn't say those things and Zor is unwilling to reconsider his read in light of this.

How do you feel about the people who have decided to join you on your Zor wagon? Incidentally, it is now the 3 people who quickly jumped off the Math wagon. I feel very confident there is AT LEAST one scum in you three.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

May I ask why I should have an issue with Lapsa sheeping me? Even if he's scum - functionally that's still 2 town votes, so...?
I agree, i don't have a good read on him.
I am not interacting with him to develop a read because there is no money in it, as evidence I submit to you everyone else interacting with him.

OK, maybe it's not a problem with the sheeping and more a problem with you seeming unwilling to establish a read on another player.

You are correct.
How do you feel about this case?

I feel it holds very little weight, especially in light of Zor's posting as a whole.

If I found them scummier than Zoronos I'd be voting them.
I am null on Lapsa.
Abuse I probably lean slight town on at this point which I think is where I was at last time I was asked on him, and if not that's where I am now.

OK, so given you're citing other people's interactions with Lapsa as your reasoning for avoiding interacting with him I will now ask; how are you planning on reading him in this game?

Theoretically there is probably one scum in any random group of three you choose to name. I could say [Zoronos, Mathdino, BBT] and likely also have at least one scum there. That is statistics. Your theory is either I'm town with a sheeping scum, or I am scum with sheeping town? Okay - that's a serious Catch-22 attitude though, so it's not very compelling as a case.

You can try to turn it into a theory post if you like, but we both know that's not the case. You can try and pretend I haven't given reasoning for why I think there is scum in you three, but we both know that's not the case.

I don't believe I have stated you are town. I also don't believe I have ruled out scum sheeping scum. Can you tell me where you developed your theories from?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mod, has Math been prodded?

Y

e

a

h

e

h

a

s

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[BlueBloodedToffee]

This 2-player game is fun.

Do you think anyone has a legit read on Lapsa at this point in the game?
I am hardly alone in lacking one, I am also hardly alone in not engaging him, I am honest in that I don't have a good read on him.
Basically you're taking umbrage with me for being honest about something that others are lying to you and/or themselves about.

I don't know. I have seen two people at least give pretty bad reasoning to town read him. I think he is scum, but I think I'm the only one who thinks it.

You're right, you're not the only one who doesn't have a read on Lapsa. But, then again, you are alone in hardly engaging/commenting on most of the player base outside of your pushes on Math and Zor. Lapsa also isn't just sheeping anyone else, they're sheeping you. So you have some sort of foundation for which you can use to gain a read on him but you haven't taken it.

I'm taking umbrage with you seemingly being unwilling to interact/engage/develop reads on anyone outside of your pushes. Lapsa is just one example and I use that example because of reasons stated above.

Do you think he is or is not overlooking Mathdino's commentary to him?
If you think he isn't overlooking it - why isn't he addressing it?
If you think he's just misunderstanding it - why do you think that's still happening at this stage.
Both options, if he's town, seem to require a lack of awareness that is pretty monumental. Agree/disagree?

I'm really not interested in inserting myself into that discussion, but, I will start a new one with you. Tell me, what is the scum motivation behind what Zor did in defending Math so early and as hard as he did?

I figure either I'll take a shot at him eventually and sort it afterwards or I'll just force a lynch on him out of annoyance.
Why, what was your plan?

I have a read on him. Didn't even need to interact with him to get it either.

If you're 'going to take a shot eventually' then your reasoning for not doing so now makes no sense as the same reasons will still apply later in the game.

I think it's exactly the case - and even if you don't it hardly weakens the point I raised.

No, it isn't. And yes, it does. I haven't simply selected three people at random, there is reasoning behind the three people I chose.

You have not, though you do seem to not be having an issue with my vote move and are having an issue with other people's vote moves - so I preumed there was a chance you were considering that I was town and not scum. If your mind is made up about me I apologize for suggesting you were weighing options.

No, I very much think you're scum. Hence my vote on you.

That would require me to be scum and for one of them to be a scumbuddy who hard sheeps - which of them do you think it is that plays like that and why do you think this?

It could be either, more likely to be Abuse than Lapsa based purely on the openness with which Lapsa does it. Abuse took the long way around, voting Tool before rejoining you on a different wagon.

I mean, it's not like there HAS to be two scum in you three, but there is definitely at least one.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

And what do you think about it Shin?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What makes you think that?

Are you town reading both Thor and myself independent of our discussion? If so, why?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

because you’re usually excited about wagons and usually telling people to vote and saying you’d be more comfortable with them if they were voting.

Do you usually see me voting during a catch up?

The general vibe I get from him is that he's a newbie that makes a lot of communication mistakes. He's trying to use 'mafia words' without necessarily understanding them, especially in his later posts. His fight with Frogger seems to be just rife with them.
He's seems to have a set of 'scumtells' that he knows exist and it looks like he's trying to apply them, but is doing so very inexpertly. Though not necessarily scummily, if that makes sense. I don't get the impression he's trying to actively push mislynches, even though I disagree with some of his reads.

OK, even though Plot explained it pretty well in her post after this I'm gonna give my thoughts anyway.

I have played between 2-4 completed games with Plot, I've never seen her play in this way. When she uses 'mafia words' she knows how to use them and doesn't misapply them. You shouldn't read Plot as a newbie, and you especially shouldn't attribute her scummy behaviour and mistakes to being a newbie either. Unless we're talking newbscum, then we got something to discuss.

VOTE: Thor665

off by one

LOL.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

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Hiiiiiii Belllaaaaaaa!!!

I don't think that's a valid foundation at all.
But, now he's sheeping you - so I look forward to you showing me how it's done.

Well, it is.

I already have a read on Lapsa, no need for interaction. You, however, did not.

Yes, other than my multiple scum reads and multiple town reads I am not offering any reads.

What?

You keep subtly twisting your responses to answer questions that I haven't asked; don't think I haven't noticed.

I said to you that you were not engaging/interacting/developing reads on other people. I still maintain that this is true. When someone asks you to explain a read, that doesn't really count as you actively trying to sort out people's alignments.

That is correct, I am focused on lynching the person I am voting for at any given moment.
How utterly strange.

Just because you want one person lynched, this should not stop you from developing reads on other players. Of course, if you're scum, that's exactly what you want.

I have offered MANY reads.
How the hell are so many people not noticing them?

Who is arguing that you have provided no reads?

I have this for you as well Thor;

what is the scum motivation behind what Zor did in defending Math so early and as hard as he did?

Hi All,

I've skim-read, any key points? Not sure what to make of Frog v Plot and Zor/Thor/Math...Zor isn't giving me town vibes by locking in on this (it's more...usual for Thor, I guess) and I'm not feeling obv-town about Plot like I usually do, and her reads-list is bit off, but the self-analysis post is better.

Lapsa, and Abuse to a certain extent, make me go o.0

Does anyone have any strong feelings on Tex/Tool that they want to share?

UNVOTE: math for now.

Wow, nothing for/about me Bella? I feel hurt.

because I dislike froggers vote and game was stalling. never flipped

VOTE: Zoronos

I don't get it...you dislike Fro99er's vote so you joined the wagon he was pushing....???

Game isn't stalling. You are.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Like who?
I have developed reads on most of the player list.
I have also interacted with almost everyone on the player list. Is your issue that I haven't interacted with literally everyone? I bet you haven't either, and I bet most players also haven't - unless we're counting one off questions, in which case I assuredly have interacted with everyone.
Tell you what - list off everyone that I haven't interacted with. Please.

I literally just stated that someone asking you a question and you responding does not constitute you engaging/interacting/developing a read. Rather, you're stating one.

The only people I would say you have engaged with are Math, Zor, & Fro99er. A brief interaction with CB as well.

That's it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I mean, if you accept your recent reads list as 'developed reads' then sure, you have some good reads. I considered your recent reads-list fairly weak and lacking substance.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Have I "interacted" with you?

Define "interact" as you mean it?

You have interacted with me, but I engaged you.

Your interactions with most players rest on them asking you something first. Otherwise, you have proceeded to just push Math, and then Zor, completely oblivious to anything else going on in the thread.

To clarify my position, I consider engagement to be based on the person who reaches out to discuss something with somebody first. The interaction is the back and forth that follows.

Then there is your whole 'developing reads' which you haven't done either (as evidenced by your reads list).

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can I get some votes on Thor please?

If not, why not?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Bella, after catching up, can you provide your thoughts on the major 'issues' that have happened to this point?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

This is not true. If I show you multiple occurences with multiple different players will it affect your read on me or no?
If no - why not?

It sure would!

What is "developing a read" then? I have reads, and have had reads change - what other metric is there?

Developing a read is exactly what it says on the tin; developing a read. For example, in your reads list where you state you're 'slightly leaning town' on both Plot and Abuse and have no read on Lapsa, you could develop these reads by interacting with each of the players. What I mean is, making your read stronger based on more information/enquiry (which I'm not seeing from you).

You actually claimed to have more solid reads than what I gave you credit for. So, there's that.

@BBT - also, going back and looking. I *did* initiate an interaction between us.

Are you intentionally lying, or just being derpy?

You're correct. I thought I started our interaction. My bad.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@Bella, what's wrong is that it's a scummy wagon on a townie player (563)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Will try to get around to this later today.

It's good to see Thor finally interacting with other slots though.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

snip

An RVS discussion with Tool? No, that doesn't even come close to the level of reads we have been discussing. It also shows how little interaction you have with this slot if you need to pick out an RVS one. You should provide more than this for Tool.

I already stated you had a brief interaction with CB.

Using people lurking as reasoning for no interactions is pretty bad.

Abuse engaged you. You did not engage Abuse. Of course you're going to interact with someone when they directly communicate with you.

So, what we now have is;

You need to show more evidence of you engaging with Tool.

You have not engaged with CD, Shinobi, Tex, Plotinus and Abuse. If Fro99er engaged you and I was initially mistaken, we can add Fro99er to the list as well. That's 6 players who you have not engaged with. You only engaged me because I was scum reading you. I feel like some players are missing here as well.

As I said, if it isn't directly in relation to your pushes on Math/Zor you have barely engaged with the player base. I'm going to add into this that unless you were directly spoken to/quoted, you also have very little interactions in the game. I stand by my original case, now with expanded upon reasoning.

Show me original engagement that is not either a) based around your Math/Zor pushes or b) your name is not directly mentioned/you are not engaged by somebody else.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

One gut feeling I have is that Thor is kind of pushing Zoronos to get him to look worse. As opposed to, like, feeling out whether he's scum.

Watch for Thor about to do this to me. First, he was like 'BBT is leaning town because I don't think scum him bothers to attack me' and his latest posts appear to suggest his read on me is slowly reversing despite me pushing the same case with the same reasons.

Did not realize Lapsa was ESL. That explains a lot actually. I think I need to reevaluate that slot with this in mind.

Who is ESL?

I don't agree with the way BBT is characterizing Thor's "lack of engagement" with other players. He is engaging with people. But I share a view that's...adjacent, I guess would be the word. I think Thor is

focusing

on a few people to the extent of looking like he feels very confident in those players being scum. I guess whether it appears that that confidence is justified or looks like it's a pre-determined conclusion is how I will look at Thor's slot when I get around to devoting some time to it.

When you ISO him, you will see what I mean. Unless it relates to a) his case on either Math/Zor or b) he is directly engaged by somebody else first, he has very little interactions with the rest of the player base.

Why do I feel like I'm the only one who doesn't want to lynch Thor?

I'm sorry? I think 3 people max want to lynch Thor and they're all voting for him. Who else wants to lynch him?

@bbt, why is Zor townie? I'm not feeling it.

The correct question is; why is he scum?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Forgive me if I missed something but I'm browsing along at work.

@Bell: Top town is probably frogger atm. I think tex is an okay lynch at this point in time and I'm not a fan of tool's most recent post.

Can you explain why Tex is an OK lynch? I'm not seeing it.

What in particular was wrong with Tool's recent post?

Tool's posts are giving me bad 'gut-vibes', though.

The plot/Frog push on Thor...:S

Can you explain what you don't like about Tool's posts?

Is there something you want to say about the push on Thor from Fro99er/Plot? I don't even see Plot pushing Thor.

Did you ISO Thor? What conclusion did you come to?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Zor, is there a reason you're not voting Thor?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Thought ESL was an alt...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can you give me a cliffnotes version of why you think he is scum

Sure;

a) Lack of interactions with players outside of pushes on Zor/Math
b) Absence of any attempts to develop reads/figure out alignments of players outside of Math/Zor
c) Weak pushes on two pretty townie players

In the scum pile:
.I'm still scum reading Tool, although less so due his recent posts. I'm waiting to see his case on Frogger.
.Mathdino was active in the early game. He drew a lot of votes, and now seems to have gone quiet.
.Plotinus I've gone back and forth for numerous times. He's gone from scum to town and back and forth a few times.

In the town pile (for now. I've gotten in trouble before putting people in the town pile too early and not re-evaluating.)
.Frogger
.Bella
.Shinobi ?

The only read I agree with is Fro99er...and mayyyyybe Plot.

I saw your case for Tool. I agree his early game was pretty scummy but his latest posting is a big improvement IMO. Improvement enough that I'm not even considering lynching him Today.

Can you explain scum read on Math and town reads on Bella/Shinobi please? I saw you say they say things that you think/agree with. Can you provide examples of this?

Next on the list would be Thor.

You should absolutely vote Thor.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Fair enough. I can wait.

Ah, in the UK we use EAL - English as Additional Language.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

We have just over 4 days until deadline and we have 5 wagons containing a single vote.

Votes need to start consolidating.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Tex, Math, Zor, Tool and CB; you need to either start pushing your wagons hard and explain why people should join you or you need to move your vote to an existing wagon.

Bella and Shinobi need to vote somebody as well. It's basically 7 votes being wasted right now and we're almost down to 4 days left.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I can usually read Plot pretty quickly as town; I'm not getting that this game at all. She feels off this game, I have talked about this quite a lot it should be pretty easy to find in my ISO.

You should probably be voting someone. I'm wondering why you're not.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's a bad vote.

Try again.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Because it's a wagon with one vote.

I mean, if you think your case is good enough to lynch Plot in 4 days, I'm listening.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Oh shit, that was a case? My bad.

I don't think that's going to convince anyone Shin, Tex feels pretty town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

By this logic you have never engaged with me.

Correct, you engaged me. You only engaged me because I said you were scum though.

Because that's the make or break for your case?
How about you explain how my scum plan is to not engage with Tool then I'll worry about showing that I have.

It's not just your lack of engagement with Tool. It's your lack of engagement with the entire player base. The 'scum plan' is you attract less attention from people as a whole when you're pushing a single case against one person and don't do much else. It also leaves very little interactions to be looked at when you flip scum so it's harder to find your buddies. Essentially, you make less mistakes if you push one person and pretend like nothing else is going on.

You have not engaged with CD, Shinobi, Tex, Plotinus and Abuse.

Neither has most other players. Yourself amongst them.

Wrong. I have engaged with every single one of those players. Are you intentionally lying or being derpy?

This is stupid. Many engagements int his game are based around my Zor and Math pushes - acting like they don't exist and are not valid points of discussion is nonsensical.

That's exactly my point! If you're not interacting with people to get them to join your wagon then your not interested in them at all. This means, you're not trying to sort out anybodies alignments other than the 1 person you're pushing. It's scummy.

Also, yes, lack of interactio with lurkers due to their lurk is a highly valid reason to have lack of interactions with them.

You can use that as an excuse if you like. I have interacted with the lurkers soooo....

Yes, I agree that you are pushing the same case that I am beating sideways as you keep shifting goalposts and that I am acting like you are less and less town due to said actions.

You're doing a really bad job of refuting my case though. Like, you're either outright lying or just stating 'that's derpy and stupid' over and over. That doesn't count as you 'beating it sideways.'

I'm not shifting any goalposts. I think the main points of my case have been very clear from the beginning. Can you explain what you think I have changed?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

3 days 18 hours.

This is starting to get silly now, votes need consolidating...it would be just fantastic if we could get some votes on Thor.

I can already tell we're not going to run anyone up till 12 hours before deadline, they claim PR, we scramble around for whatever lynch we can and kill any potentially useful information in the process.

Please, get your shit together and do something.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Votes should be consolidating.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Tool, I would appreciate your vote on Thor.

That is the most logical place for your vote.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Derp

You are changing goalpoasts - you are ignoring that the issues you are raising with me are more applicable to other players - you are not addressing my specific notes about how many players you've failed to interact with - you are ignoring logic holes in your case - you are ignoring that I focus hard on players regardless of my alignment.

Show me where I am changing the goalposts.

No, the issues I am raising apply directly to you. Trying to deflect the issue onto other players does not make you any less scummy.

I addressed your notes about me not interacting with the players you listed - I responded by saying you were wrong and then asked if you were lying or being intentionally derpy.

You're not just going to hand wave this case away by claiming it's derpy.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Where it started that I'd not interacted with anyone but 3-4 people, then it expanded to you, then to another 4 or so, and now the issue is that I haven't interacted with everyone.

No, I responded to where you thought you had engaged with more players and showed that what you presented, was in fact, false.

Show me the quotes - like I did for you?
Because I checked - they're not there.

Sure thing. Coming right up.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, you said I had not engaged with CD, Shin, Tex, Plot or Abuse.

Spoiler: Engaging CD

I'm at a loss in coming up for a town!Mathdino motivation for making such a strong declarative statement regarding the chances of a random slot being scum.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Mathdino

Is this the worst reasoning for a serious vote in the history of Mafia? Probably not. But it's pretty bad.

Also: I'm disliking Abuse more (for his "HUGE RED FLAG" BS on page 11). Also disliking Lapsa more for the apparent misrep on CB.

You should vote Abuse instead.

Because in addition to 10:3 being a thing, 9:4, 9:3;1, and 9:2:2 are things as well. Focusing on the former has the appearance of you having knowledge of the makeup of the scum team. IOW, it has the appearance of a scumslip.

If you really are town, you might want to avoid assumptions like that in the future.

This is weak. I approach every mini with the 10:3 mindset and it's only ever been multi-ball once (and that was just over a year ago now).

I hadn't engaged with Shinobi prior to our discussion.

Hmm, I haven't engaged with Texcat either; but I've openly stated I town read this slot so I haven't felt the need to.

Spoiler: Engaging Plot

It’s interesting that he mentions me but he doesn’t ask me any questions or interact with me yet. I want him to be town because we’ve been town together at least 3 times already and it was really fun but unfortunately I am null on BBT.

I don’t know about his push on Fro99er in 193; fro99er’s evolving read on me didn’t seem all that quick in real time.

BBT, why are you town reading CB he was throwing shade on a whole bunch of slots in his only post?

I'm town Plot. There, I hope I eased your worries.

As for Fro99er;

Plotinus is in my nullscum pile as of now. I do like Ploti's pressure of Lapsa and agree with it. I do like he's being truthful about my play. I didn't like his passiveness on me, and the weak test. I did not like the pointing out of the crumb either.

Zoro - agree RE: Plotinus.

Ploti's honesty reads towny to me. He provided a link to the vanilla crumb from a previous game, he's got the right mindset about Lapsa when he responded to you about "towning up the slot on page 3". I can possibly write off his early passiveness toward me as just truthful honesty instead. He eventually backed up a read on me as well.

I'm not sure how you don't see that as a quick turn around. In 102 you're 'nullscum' and in the space of 9 posts you're now 'towny'. Hmm.

I already stated why I thought CB was town; a lot of his thoughts in his catch up post were the same as mine as I was catching up. This means he is likely viewing the game from the same mindset that I am, so he can be town.

i think i can answer the low hanging fruit / lynch hunting thing too actually.

The way you started this post is pinging me pretty hard. It's like you thought about answering Fro99er's accusations the first time around but couldn't think of a decent explanation and then you had another think about it and something came to you that you thought you could use.

probably town: abuse
maybe town: toolenduso, lapsa, math
could be town: chthulu, zoronos, thor, shinobi
could be scum: bbt, texcat,
maybe scum:
scum: cb, fro99er

Plot, can you explain the town reads on Abuse, Tool & Lapsa.

Your reads are near enough the polar opposite of mine and that is a worrying sign indeed.

Spoiler: Engaging Abuse

Okay so.
firstoff UNVOTE:

I'd want to start by explaining thoroughly the previous shinobi/abuse/plotinus thingie concerning lapsa's crumb, because I think this is important.
First off, I want to make it clear that I know how lapsa plays. The main thing I can tell you, is that pretty much everything he does right now is null. Everything you think he is saying that seems scummy, is null, everything he says that seems townie, is also null. Things he says are quite likely lies, but could be truth aswell, In any case - there is no way to know

yet.

The reason I poked plotinus, about him voting for lapsa was to see if he was newbish or scum. Because his vote was fishy.
I know Lapsa, many people here do not. My conversation with him was to find out. His defense of the lapsa vote was that neither vanillas nor mafia benefit from a claim such as that. That is correct- i pointed that there is another role that would benefit from it. He understood what I talked about, that should've been it.
The interesting part though, is that shinobi intervened, and followed up trying to get me to say what exactly do I mean by that. I honestly think that what I said was obvious. Getting me to say it out loud, can be classified as both PR hunting, or trapping me for pointing to PR's instead of scum.
The only thing is - again - I know how Lapsa plays, so basically I can tell you with 99.9% certainty, that that was not a crumb at all. I knew this pretty much for sure, they did not. This allowed me to judge their reactions about the scenario. Overall, from this alone, there's a picture of plotinus and shinobi. Plotinus came out with a slight town lean, while shinobi with a slight scum lean from that alone. Though Shinobi's posts interacting with zoro put him back in the null zone.

This was an awful lot of words to say 'Lapsa is null, it's too early to read him and I'm leaning town on Plotinus and null on Shinobi via interactions around vanilla crumb.'

snip, reads list

The timing of this reads list is icky. It's like you saw Math do one and thought 'Ohh, that looks town. Let me try it.'

UNVOTE:

CB seems off, but not sure if it's because he's playing several games at once and doesn't pay enough attention here, or if he's scum.

What feels off about CB?

Thor, what do you think about Lapsa ?
I can't seem to find your stance on him anywhere.

Thor lacks a stance on many players.

Went through tool's ISO.
His mindset seems logical.

Umm, you don't think scum can think logically?

I am much more worried about this now, after skimming through some of his previous games.
He's much more aggressive when town. And just as defensy when scum. :/

But not worried enough to vote because...

For the one question that didn't have an answer in there Math's wagon feels off TO ME, because an extremely large percentage of first lynches with similar reasoning end up in a town lynch, in my experience. I want to hear from Victor before I think more about this.
for now : UNVOTE:

What reasoning would this be?

OK, so I haven't engaged two of those people.

PEdit - No, it wasn't a goalpost move. I really don't want to get into a semantics argument with you but it's not engaging people when they ask you something first. I still maintain you have done very little to work out the alignments of anyone outside of your two pushes.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I have Fro99er.

You abandoned me.

PEdit - I'm sorry, how does my engagement of Plotinus not count?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I engaged her.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm pretty sure I asked Plot a question as well.

You have a lot more than 4 people who you haven't engaged.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Frogger / BBT, when you get a chance, would appreciate it if you could give 825 a close read.
I think it's a pretty scummy case, but would like a sanity check.

I feel like I'm yelling into the wind here. Hell, Thor, what do you think about 825?

Thought I had responded to this.

It's a weird one for me. I can see where Bella is coming from because this is a very different Plot to what I have seen before, so I can understand Bella being suspicious of Plot. The actual case presented wasn't great though IMO and I don't think I have seen a single town post from the CD/Bella slot the entire game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

2 days, 9 hours.

Votes on Thor please. Time is ticking.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wrong...I found a better scum read.

I really don't think you have.

@bbt, maybe if you stopped walling with Thor you'd see them. I find it ironic (and wierd) that you are arguing with him in circles about not engaging other people

I'm engaging with people whilst pushing Thor.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yes, I'm town. Tell me who to vote until I get a chance to read.

Hold it...are you town?

Well, that's an awkward entrance. Almost like you realized you had initially placed far too much trust in Fro99er because you're not supposed to know his alignment.

Anyway, correct answer is Bella for making awful / scummy cases. Go read 825.

Zor, you have one day. Bella is not happening, join me on Thor please.

That tool wagon popped up even faster than the one on me.
Holy shit, Thor says something that makes sense.

Think about that - especially since mine was a raging train of derp.

Then he goes and ruins it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I think he is more scummy. Mathdino said a couple things that ping me as somewhat towny.

CB, your vote on Abuse is wasted. We have just over a day remaining. Choose a wagon (Hint: Thor)

Tex Shin def town. Bella prob town.

Fro99er, can you explain the solid town read on Shin and prob town on Bella please?

CB, my reasons are mostly 786 but it's probably more helpful to read Frog's case, and their back and forth in the last few pages. His case on Frog is terribad.

I'm sorry. Presenting a 'bad case' is not scummy. Town do it all the time. Is there something specific you can pick out which makes you think he is scum? (Fro99er, you can answer this as well)

If I'm actually going to get lynched then maybe my time will be best spent preparing an analysis of my own wagon? Guess I'll get that ready to go...

You also need to look at who is avoiding your wagon and why they're doing it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Persivul

This is scum.

This has no chance of happening in one day.

Please, rejoin me on Thor.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

EBWOP:

That tool wagon popped up even faster than the one on me.

Holy shit, Thor says something that makes sense.

Think about that - especially since mine was a raging train of derp.

Then he goes and ruins it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

This game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

He's not attempting it during his catch up?

I was town reading Math, I'm highly hesitant to vote Persivul right now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Frogger, I caught you in a blatant contradiction and noted it. I only moved you to null as a read because your overall game is towny. You're overreacting now, and I'm happy about that, because I've seen you overreact to pressure as town. I would be more concerned if you just waited to see what came of it.

BUT...it is a serious contradiction. You explain it merely as RL scum. Are you saying you've played scum in, and only in, live action games, so nothing to link to? If so, have you mentioned somewhere that you've played live action in the past?

It really isn't and you should drop it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

1,000th post.

Vote Thor.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Fro99er, what are you doing?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Fro99er, stay.

Take some time away from thread to cool down.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Thank you.

Mod, you failed with 1,000th post.

Onto serious bizniz, Tool wagon is shit. I'm not even town reading Tool strongly but the speed of that wagon was disgusting and it's a counter wagon to my Thor wagon which is always a bad sign.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Haha, deleting posts has now made me look silly.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm unsure on Shin and I've seen nothing town from the Bella slot.

You, Tex and maybe Plot are town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Fro99er, can you explain your reasons for town reading Shin and Bella?

I thought I had already asked but I can't find it in my ISO.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hold on, if you thought Math was scummy, why would the Math wagon be bad?

Also, I mean, all Shin did was agree with you. He might not have been thinking those things.

How about Bella?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Shin has a lot of posts, a lot more than I'm used to seeing from him.

Skimming his ISO though, not a lot of it is alignment indicative. I also noticed it's not the first time he has quoted someone else's posts and added 'that's what I was thinking.'

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm pretty sure you're town, I'm just trying to understand your reads/posts because we're at polar opposites right now

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Because at the time I was unsure on math. That was post 372. We're over post 1000 now. My reads are allowed to change, no?

Has Math posted a whole lot after 372?

If so, which posts in particular did you dislike?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Tex, why not Thor?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

The push on Tex in 389 was particularly bad.

Agreed. Anything else?

VOTE: Thor

Why?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT, thoughts on Shinobi? Also, are you town-reading Tex?

I have literally just answered both of these questions.

This is what I mean about Bella, Fro99er. She asks a lot of questions that have either a) been answered or b) don't really go anywhere.

It's doing things to 'look busy'.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@BBT, I can see you are 'unsure' and some of his posts are alignment indicative, and I can infer a negative reaction to him agreeing with things (which may or may not be indicative) and you didn't like his tex push. But it seems a little fence sitty to me, hence me prodding at it.

You're correct, I'm fence sitting on Shin, I don't have a read on him one way or the other.

Also, I disagree with 'looking busy'. I've stated reads, I've questions to develop these, I've interacted with players I'm not sure of, like Shinobi. Part of your push on me feels like you are frustrated me/more people aren't sheeping you on your Thor case.

While you are here, talk to me about your read on Plot? It seems quite flipfloppy, and I'd like to understand that.

Of course I'm frustrated people won't join me and lynch Thor, that however, has no effect on how I read people. I just can't see one post from you that makes me go 'OK, Bella is town'.

I'm not really interested in discussing Plot right now. I disliked some of her earlier play, I don't like that I'm not getting an obvtown read of her like I usually do but she isn't anywhere near the scummiest player in this game right now and I have no interest in pursuing it further on this Day.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@BBT, I'm having trouble with the Thor wagon for similar reasons as Frog. I didn't like his comparison of the tool/his wagon, though.

@Frog, tex, how sure of the math/pers read are you?

What is your read on Thor?

What is the point of the second question?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Sure;

a) Lack of interactions with players outside of pushes on Zor/Math
b) Absence of any attempts to develop reads/figure out alignments of players outside of Math/Zor
c) Weak pushes on two pretty townie players

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Persivul, you're scum reading Fro99er?

If so, is it based on more than the 'scum-slip'?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

1056 was for Bella.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can I have a further explanation for why you're town reading Fro99er because I got the feeling you was scum reading him from your interactions?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright, I'm dropping it.

Persivul, you should finish catching up.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

bbt, what do you think are the chances that persivul and thor are scum together, given the way they’ve been fighting all game. i’m rereading some of their argument and it still feels like impenetrable semantics to me.

I'm not sure, I'm not big on pre-flip associatives though. I'm not scum reading the Persivul slot but he has done a great job of killing the decent town read I had on it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't know what you want me to say Fro99er.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I can see where you're coming from but I disagree with your use of meta in stating that Math should have a better ability to read Tex having seen her as scum before.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT is worrying me.

I am?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can you elaborate?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

And this worries you now and not 25 pages ago because...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, and the reason you chose to say it now is...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can someone walk me through why we stopped wagoning Tool?

Because he's probably town?

why does the speed of the wagon matter in regards to his alignment?

Usually, when a wagon moves quickly it's because scum have seized an opportunity to 'go with the flow' and jump on a wagon that looks to be in the ascendancy.

Quick wagon nearly always = town.

I'm willing to go back to Tool. I don't want to get distracted by a Bella or Plot lynch at this point.

VOTE: Tool

Tex, how are you reading Thor?

snip

This is a really, really good post from Tool. If this post doesn't convince you all that Tool is town then you should stop playing Mafia.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No time to read. vc please. Cases on targets please. Will skim vca.

Quick ISO of Plot and myself will tell you everything you need to know to vote Thor.

I really want to know why Bella just posted that giant numbers list because I thought that was really scummy and useless.

Why was it scummy?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't find flashwagon carousel cool. with shallow analysis bussing becomes too easy and meaning gets entirely disintegrated

So much this. A flash-wagon now is perfect for scum to throw their votes on any wagon they like and kill any chance of VCA. I have been pushing for people to consolidate their votes since we had 4 days 18 hours left and nobody gave a shit.

Read Thor's ISO. Can someone tell me what's scummy?

Are you reading? Plot and myself have stated numerous reasons for why Thor is scum.

Lean town on Zoro. He made good points against CD, which is now Bella. This is a better lynch than either of the two current wagons.

VOTE: Bella

No, it isn't and this is a bad vote.

Thor comes across to me as a debater more than a scum hunter. What I mean is that he's too interested in being right on every little point and doesn't know when to drop things. But that doesn't make him scummy.

Thor uses the classic scum strategy of breaking a case down to semantics. Scum use semantics to break cases all the time, it's the easiest way to do it because no case is infallible.

Then he goes into 'lol, this is derpy and you're bad mode'.

Thor is scum. He should be Today's lynch.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It is interesting that the person who was engaging in scum theatre with Thor is now resisting his lynch this hard.

This is why pre-flop associations are bad.

It's difficult to understand what the motivations are until you gain that extra information.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

We have less than a day and are at risk of a mislynch, but his vote is sitting on zoro doing nothing. That doesn't seem like scum to me.

Why isn't Thor scum who is waiting for the inevitable last minute scramble that is going to happen, during which, he then moves his vote and doesn't even need to provide reasoning for it?

Scum love to have their vote sitting and doing nothing. It doesn't attract any attention.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That was a very pointless discussion.

Thanks.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can you explain your complete 180 on the Thor slot please?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You put Thor at L-3 when you had him as null/scum and you were leaning scum on Tool/Shinobi? I don't get the vote on Thor then...

Also, this is pretty frustrating because when I asked you about it you said it's because that's the wagon Fro99er wasn't on and I don't even know what that means.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm most certainly not wasting my time with you. I'm really struggling to understand your read progression and voting in this game so far, your reasoning is also pretty bad for that vote.

Given Thor is only a null/town read for you, why are you so strongly opposing his lynch?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Your 'read' states you're null/town on Thor.

Your actions indicate a much stronger town read on the slot.

You know what they say about actions and words...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

VOTE: Persivul

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Persivul has killed my town read on that slot. Like, ruined it.

I will compromise on Bella if Persivul lynch doesn't happen.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No, I quite obviously believe your claim or my vote would still be on you. I'm saying meh for my shit play.

You better vote me if you think I'm a better lynch.

Also, you think I give a fuck about meta? I have seen you play that way as scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Titus, have you managed to read anything?

What do you think about a Persivul lynch?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yes, I'm sure you have *because I play that way as town*.
Which means you made a case BASED ON SOMETHING THAT WASN'T A TELL.

I'm sorry what?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wow. My case on you WAS NOT based on meta. Do you understand this?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You did not answer the simple question.

You also just claimed that you had seen me play like this as scum - was that just empty noise meaning nothing, or was that a weak claim at meta support?

My comment had nothing to do with you tunneling. Nice assumption you made there.

Correct, I had seen you play this way as scum. Did I submit this as evidence for why I thought you were scum? No. I was using this game, and this game only, as my basis for why I was scum reading you.

My comment was in direct relation to your comment about your meta. Meaning, meta is null and a shit way to determine someone's alignment.

PEdit - I would lynch Shinobi.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Shinobi/Plotinus/Frogger

Not a chance.

You're way off here Titus. You also seem far too assured for someone who hasn't even read the game. Maybe Shin, but that's it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Thor you appear to be confusing play-style with meta.

They are two separate things.

VOTE: Titus

[BlueBloodedToffee]

L-2 for Titus I think.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT, you can yell at me for being wrong if you still believe Thor is scum only. Otherwise you wagoned a cop. The associative are there.

Plot says gee, I could "compromise" on Shinobi but then tries to play the wagon as impossible. Classic distancing. All three of Plot Shinobi ad Frogger stonewalled when I suggested them as scum. If Plot votes here, Shinobi is viable, and that is not good for them.

Titus, Plot and Fro99er are not scum. I'm almost 100% on Fro99er and Plot isn't far behind. That was an awful lynch list.

PEdit - THIS FUCKING GAME.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I believe Plot 100% over Titus.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

How do you define meta if not playstyle?

Also, so now Titus is a valid lynch - what about Zor?
And what does your naked vote like about the Titus wagon?

Unvote: Titus
Vote: BBT

You're suffering from huge conf bias right now and I cba dealing with it.

PEdit - What Fro99er said.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Someone hammer Titus.

We have scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Abuse was scummy.

There ya go.

Vote Titus.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Titus, Fro99er is town.

Like, 100% town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No, Titus. You didn't claim to take a bullet for Plot.

You claimed in an attempt to save your ass. You called x-shot because you assumed that would be believable alongside Thor's claim.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I mean, for someone who so regularly does set-up spec, I would think you would have considered it to be very likely to be some variant of the popular Cop+Doc set-up once Thor claimed.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

at the very beginning of game, after ice cream talk and abuse interaction with Plot, abuse wrote me on skype:
"looks like I have set you up as a night kill"

to which I replied:
"don't ever speak to me about ongoing game till it's over"

and we never did. but desire to do so remained - written on his forehead. I met him

This 100% should never happen.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm not sure why you felt the need to out that Lapsa.

If Titus flips scum, I would put good money on Shin being scum with her.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

She is grouping you up as 'conf scum' with Fro99er. I think she is doing it to throw us off when she flips scum.

Fro99er is town, which means she is hoping that by grouping you with Fro99er, people are thrown off the trail.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Titus, can you just go over why Shin is scum for me?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I am also wondering why we should still lynch titus in light of recent events.

Can you expand on this?

You just stated intent to hammer and have no reversed your read?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

This reads like desperate clinging to beliefs you know are untrue BBT. Stop it.

I see what you're trying to do here. You're trying to link me to you after your flip. Your unwavering town read of me despite disagreeing with everything I say etc etc.

Nice try Titus.

I don't KNOW anything to be untrue. I'm pretty sure you're scum and I'd like to lynch Shinobi straight after you.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Tool, you should be more specific.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Lapsa bringing up abuse's townslip.

Oh, I see.

I don't see how what Abuse said implies he is town. For all we know, and this is WIFOM, he was manipulating town!Lapsa outside of thread.

There are too many scenario's to consider that a town-slip.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't get the confusion over Plot's notes either. It's pretty easy stuff to follow.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm good with our scum PT being released.

WP Thor and Shin.

Thanks for modding Aero! Would play again!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

This is the first time I played against scumBBT and I did notice a few things about him but we’ll have to see how many of them hold true in future games. He thinks he has some on me after n1615 so we’re looking forward to our next game.

I cannot wait for our next game Plot.

I just /inned for the next mini normal if you're interested...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Also, I was not a good kill choice! I wanted to win!!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I know

People should learn that when I seem town I'm scum and when I'm scummy I'm town.

I can't even help it either and it's pretty annoying.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I would not.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Bella hard carried our team as well, well done Bella!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Dude. You were obvtown in Pokemon U Pick II. Check your meta

Hahaha, meta kicks my ass I guess?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Could you imagine a Shin/Thor/BBT/Bella team of some sort?
That'd be sick.

Firstly, I'm loving that new avatar. Secondly, you played pretty well so well done. Thirdly, that's an unbeatable scum team, no? Even Plot's interaction analysis couldn't break that shit up.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can I just say how awesome this player list was?

It was seriously awesome and you're all awesome people.

Except for Shinobi. He killed me.