Mini 1749: Classic Rock Mafia: Game Over!

[AlwaysInnocent]

Let's think carefully about who we will lynch.

It might be a good idea to have a consensus on who is town to limit the scum pool.

My list: AI, Garmr, FA, Aeronaut, Albert B.

Players included in every list will be avoided at all costs.

[AlwaysInnocent]

^What the hell.

[AlwaysInnocent]

We should lynch radja, Taly, or Firebringer.

Assuming that there are at least two scum in this pool, would scum-Albert really suggest these lynches?

[AlwaysInnocent]

dave, AI, me, FA, and I

don't want to lynch Gamr or Aeronaut today

but pretty sure one is scum. If I'm wrong about Aero's role and Dietrich is actually the neighborizer, then, Aero is part of my town list.

VOTE: ABR

VOTE: Aeronaut

Your role is scum.

Lol. That is contradictory.

[AlwaysInnocent]

We should lynch radja, Taly, or Firebringer.

Assuming that there are at least two scum in this pool, would scum-Albert really suggest these lynches?

I'd expect a scum-ABR would have at least one buddy in there. Don't know about two, but AJ's probably not scum if Albert is.

How about Taly/Dave?

[AlwaysInnocent]

I don't get why Albert B. would scumread you. You are obvious town to me.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Is it not possible that this is TvT?

[AlwaysInnocent]

OMG. Not this again. Are we really going to lynch Albert B.? Sounds like a bad idea to me.

And on what basis? Role speculation?

Dierfire is much more likely to be scum.

[AlwaysInnocent]

If we are going to lynch Albert B. (it doesn't feel right to me), then we should have a more solid case.

We have enough time, don't we?

How about we try to figure this out calmly this time? What do you think, FA?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Albert B. is likely wrong about Aeronaut, but is this alignment indicative? I don't know. I scumread Mathilda. I was wrong about her. Does that make me scum? No. It just means I was being an overconfident idiot.

[AlwaysInnocent]

ABR role is as bad as a miller

look at his Iso and his contradictions when he was talking about dave and Taly and You will see what i mean

pedit : sure UNVOTE:

let me show you what I see

Yes, please. You were able to see through Firebringer, so maybe I am missing something here as well.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Let me read his ISO more carefully. You have raised some good points. Give me some time to look into it.

[AlwaysInnocent]

How do we rule out that Dave is not the liar by claiming Miller?

I have read Albert B's ISO. There are contradictions in his posts, but I am not confident that it is alignment indicative.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Well look at it this way; Theres no way there's a town Ascetic and a Miller in this game. By lynching one of them, we can sort of narrow that down.

Does that help?

No, because that involves setup speculation. Besides, you don't know who is lying (if anyone is), so this might result in a mislynch.

[AlwaysInnocent]

This is why I'm voting you, of course there can be both.

Stop voting Aeronaut if you are town.

If the cop investigates me and gets no result, he will start suspect me as much as a miller.

Right.

Ascetic is a useless scum role given the flips we have.

No, it's not, because there is still some ambiguity.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I'm actually running out of music :S

Impossible.

Not sure if Europe counts as "classic rock" (it has pop influences), but I would suggest Europe - Start From The Dark, and other great songs by them.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I don't know about Albert B. or Aeronaut anymore. This does not feel like TvT, but one of them has to be telling the truth.

I prefer to lynch Dierfire. He is more obvious scum than anyone.

[AlwaysInnocent]

This town sucks. Aero is townread by many people. Lynch him after I flip.

You do realize that we cannot really permit ourselves to make any more mistakes?

[AlwaysInnocent]

I really don't know. How do we know the Miller claim is not bullshit and Albert B. had not thought it through?

[AlwaysInnocent]

I will not be so outspoken about hammering this time, FA. I just hope you take your time to reach the best decision possible. I have been wrong too many times to tell other people what to do.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Should he have claimed D1 like the Miller?

[AlwaysInnocent]

" "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott

Right, but I want to shoot Dierfire.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Should he have claimed D1 like the Miller?

whats different about his role from miller?!

All powers fail except kills. This includes protection and what not.

Come to think of it. A townie would want the town to know, so that they don't waste a protection on them.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Fuck it. Hammer away, FA. He is all yours.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Imagine that I voted for him, too. I just know you love the hammering part, FA.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Freaking pagetops.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Might as well post this.

[AlwaysInnocent]

who you bodyguarded Garmr? If its aero then the scum will be in AI - Aj - Dire

I'd say Dierfire.

[AlwaysInnocent]

What's this about bodyguard? Bodyguard dies if the guarded player is killed.

he said bp bodyguard?

1-Shot Bulletproof Bodyguard, I believe. Makes sense.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I'm 1 shot bulletproof aero is confirmed town.

rc

tell them what you told me how the bullet modifier works on a bp
VOTE: frozen.

Why vote for FA? She is town.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Read List 4.1

{AlwaysInnocent}

{Garmr, Dave}

{Aeronaut}

{Frozen Angel}

{Aj}

{Dierfire}

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: Dierfire

The last scum member, probably.

[AlwaysInnocent]

FA vs Garmr is TvT, I think.

You really should go after Dierfire.

[AlwaysInnocent]

If you think I'm scum, you have not been reading carefully enough.

If it's not Dierfire (I still think he is the one), then it must be Aj.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Let's lynch Dierfire, the remaining scum.

[AlwaysInnocent]

It has become obvious to me now. Dierfire is the remaining scum.

Aeronaut

, was largely responsible for Albert B.'s lynch.

FA

, was largely responsible for lynching Firebringer and hammering Albert B. (when I was being skeptical about his lynch, until I realized the logic of him being scum due to the claimed role).

Garmr

, claimed 1-Shot Bulletproof Bodyguard. It makes sense that he protected Aeronaut. Why waste a NK when the scum could really use it?

Davesaz

, claimed Miller. This seems authentic. Albert B. first questioned it, then believed it. It is unlikely that two scum would claim a similar role.

Aj

, not as sure about him as the rest, but I was townreading Radja and I like Aj's reasoning. From his perspective, it has to be either Dierfire or me, just as I have Dierfire or him. We both prefer Dierfire.

Dierfire

, bussed his partners when it was convenient, but was never seriously scumreading them before. Highly opportunistic. He is very quiet at the moment, too. Only asks people suggestive questions.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Never mind. Aj cannot be scum. So he is green as everyone else. Albert B. tried to get him lynched early-D1. He was genuinely frustrated with Radja. It was not an act.

There is no doubt about it. The game has been solved.

GG.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Either AI is town and solved it, or scum and trying too hard to lynch Dier. (Actually there is a 3rd possibility that he's town and wrong, but I'm an optimist)
So I'm pretty sold on lynch Dier, and look really hard at AI if game isn't over.
Though I have to say that if AI is scum, marking everyone else off as green isn't the best move.

Sure, I could be wrong. In theory. However, I currently cannot see anyone other than Dierfire being the remaining scum. Everything points in his direction by PoE.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I know I have not been the best town player in this game.

On D1, I lynched Mathilda (even though I preferred Dierfire even then). She was town.
On D2, I was having doubts whether Firebringer was scum. Being wrong before makes one think twice about their actions. I was frustrated with FA for hammering too early, but only after she had already hammered. If I were scum, then that would be non-sensical, since I would have known Firebringer would flip scum and therefore I would have preferred to shut up about it.
On D3, I was hesitant to lynch Albert B. because of role setup. I townread him initially, but once I started to think a little harder about it, I realized Aeronaut, FA, etc. were right about Albert B. He had to be scum. So I went along with it.

If not Dierfire, who else could be the remaining scum? Me? Nope. I am town. Anyone else? I doubt it.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I need to reread AI and Aj sometime today

No need to. We already solved the game.

[AlwaysInnocent]

FA, I ask you to trust me this once. My actions have not been the best in this game, but if you read carefully you will see that I cannot be scum with FB and Albert B.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Aj replaced Radja. The interactions between Albert B. and Radja make them an unlikely scum team.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I suppose even if you Lynch me we can still win this game. But let's not.

[AlwaysInnocent]

"Bought me one more day"

is so damn scummy

like your just sorting mislynches to win ...

No, really? Could he really be doing that?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Dierfire gives reasons why Aj is town.

Votes him anyway.

[AlwaysInnocent]

"Bought me one more day"

is so damn scummy

like your just sorting mislynches to win ...

No, really? Could he really be doing that?

why should he getting to stay in middleground in me/Garmr case. like he is not fully town reading him :

In neighbor pt : "I wouldn't consider lynching Garmr before LYLO."

nor town reading me (here) : "I'll have more on Frozen when she finishes reading. I've expressed suspicion of her behavior toward the Firebringer and ABR wagons but helping us lynch them both buys her at least one more day. The push against Garmr seems to me to chiefly be OMGUS based on his case against her in the Neighborhood."

....

Yeah. The whole town is in his possible lynch pool. That is not very comforting.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Why are you townreading me, if you are town? If you are not scum either, then that would mean I have been pushing this whole game for town only. What have I done to deserve the honor of being town in your eyes?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Nah. Not completely true, I did push for Dwlee at some point, but is that all?

[AlwaysInnocent]

I would like to believe that I was correct at some point about scum being in the pool {Mathilda, Dierfire, Dwlee}. But lynching in the wrong order is just devastating, no matter how right you were.

[AlwaysInnocent]

It doesn't really help me if you always have a Mafia player as your secondary lynch, particularly when you actively refuse to move your vote.

Aj is not Mafia. Give it up.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Aj replaced Radja. The interactions between Albert B. and Radja make them an unlikely scum team.

if this is your reason this is pretty bad

ABR suggested he was sheeping Radja himself ...

So? Albert B. had been constantly trying to get Radja lynched. No way he was bussing him at that point. His frustration with Radja seemed genuine too.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Hahaha.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I don't have the time or the motivation to read that whole game. I don't know where to look for bussing either.

Anyway, there is reasonable bussing and unreasonable bussing. What Dierfire did was reasonable bussing at a reasonable time (scum buddies had a high probability of being lynched anyway). In Albert B.'s case, it seemed more like he wanted to get a mislynch going, so that would be an unreasonable bussing (suboptimal play).

Plus, some things are hard to fake.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I'm having trouble here

My paranoias are killing me...

See signature.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Does that include me? If so, why are you hesitating to vote for me?

Of course it includes you. However, since she scumreads everyone but Aeronaut (apparently), she will consider possible worlds where you are town and lynching you could result in a mislynch.

Since you are not town, you obviously didn't think of this.

[AlwaysInnocent]

You're wrong about me, Aeronaut. But I understand your reasons for voting me. I admit: this has not been my best game.

I would advise you to look at my interactions with Dwlee, though. How likely is it that it was faked?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Aeronaut, also, remember that Aj replaced Radja. Look at the interactions between Radja and Albert B. Likely scum team? I think not.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Furthermore, even though this is slightly WIFOM-ish (if I were scum, that is), how likely is it that I would get frustrated about FA's quickhammer on Firebringer

after

he was hammered?

Suppose I am scum. Would I really go through the trouble to fake frustration with someone's playstyle, to deceive the town? Even though people mostly remember me "defending" Firebringer, not so much when it happened. Not good if I am scum. Is that really worth it? I would have expected this to be used against me if I were scum, so I would not have gone through the trouble to do that. On the other hand, "if" I am town, I might have serious doubts about the quickhammer. I might even believe that I could be nightkilled (not that likely, but who knows). So, I made use of the time I had to complain about FA. Little did I know that Firebringer would flip scum, and FA was right all along.

Which scenario is more likely?

[AlwaysInnocent]

You're wrong about me, Aeronaut. But I understand your reasons for voting me. I admit: this has not been my best game.

I would advise you to look at my interactions with Dwlee, though. How likely is it that it was faked?

You mean that time you said he was fence-scum with minimal reasoning, and then never actually voted him or pushed him?

Yea I took a look there.

So the constant calls to kill everyone in the pool {Mathilda, Dwlee/Firebringer, Dierfire} mean nothing to you?

[AlwaysInnocent]

You're even quoting those posts, but all you see is Mathilda apparently. I screwed up the lynch order. Big time.

My overconfidence caused me to fall. After I realized I was wrong about Mathilda, I became a lot more cautious. This developed completely organically. It is not easy to fake that at all.

Being cautious about the wrong people only caused me to fall further. I hope you realize I am town sooner or later. We can win even if you mislynch me, but since we cannot be completely certain, there is still a 1% possibility that Dierfire is town and someone else is scum. I don't believe that, but hey, I have been wrong before. Still, I would like to believe that I am not completely stupid and have been right about Dierfire from the beginning, except that my overconfidence caused me to misjudge the lynch order and how scum could manipulate this.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Well, Aeronaut, I appreciate it that you think I am a lot smarter than I am. This game proved to me that I should get my head out of my ass more often.

[AlwaysInnocent]

You know, when I saw Mathilda flip town, I literally slapped myself in the face.

"Good job," I said to myself. "I am a student at a university and I just mislynched a scientist from my own field with pathetic reasoning."

I might as well have carried a torch and called her a witch. Intellectually, there was little difference. I was so consumed by my overconfidence that I started doing completely stupid things.

Ironically, when I became more cautious, it was about actual scum. I am not clever scum. I am a moron.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I mean I'm a student at a University too, I'm pretty sure most of these people are.

I guess. It is just that I look up to people like Mathilda and then I end up lynching them in an old-fashioned witch hunt. Talk about embarrassing.

The difference is, I'm a psych/Polisci major, so I usually can tell when the bullshit train is entering the station.

You're right about the bullshit, but you're wrong about my motivation.

[AlwaysInnocent]

They tried? Not even Albert B voted for Dierfire.

[AlwaysInnocent]

they = you


In my scenario in which you are scum.

Ok. Let's assume I am scum. We tried to save Albert B. by framing Dierfire. Why did Albert B not co-operate and vote for Dierfire? Instead he desperately tried to frame you. Why would he do something so futile when there was a better scapegoat?

The answer is: Albert B didn't want to be associated with Dierfire.

[AlwaysInnocent]

you know, though... the fact that scum probably tried killing me last night also points to AJ.

Why? It makes sense to kill you anyway.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Aeronaut, how do you explain that I only have one scumread atm and am townreading the rest? If I were scum I would prefer to keep my options at least a little more open. I would expect to be "wrong" about Dierfire and knowingly set myself up in a situation where I would have to retract at least one townread. That's not very smart.

Dierfire on the other hand has many potential scapegoats to choose from.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Post #1561

[AlwaysInnocent]

My townread on Aj became much stronger after that.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Garmr, you're quoting the very posts that actually prove the opposite of what you're claiming. The interaction with Dwlee is not faked. I genuinely didn't like his passive play.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Also, I don't "bicker" with fellow scum behind the scenes. At most I try to stage something like this, but I don't think I would be so aggressive towards Dwlee if I were scum.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Also, perhaps you missed it, but Dwlee explicitly said that he didn't approve of the Dierfire vote. Why not? I think I know why: because Dierfire was his actual scum buddy.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Dave is town.
Aj is town.
FA is town.
You are town.
Garmr is town.

I am town.

So that leaves us with...

[AlwaysInnocent]

But feel free to lynch me. We will win anyway.

Unless I am somehow wrong about someone, but I doubt it.

[AlwaysInnocent]

You're Town, right?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Really. If Dierfire is town, I am going to put one of his quotes saying "you have been furthering the win condition of the Mafia better than the Mafia themselves" in my signature. There is absolutely no chance that he is town.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Dierfire allows himself to have way too many options. The opportunism is so obvious.

[AlwaysInnocent]

@AlwaysInnocent

Does that mean that you understand his analysis and conclusions? Will you explain it to me?

Are you talking about yourself in third person?

[AlwaysInnocent]

see my problem is this you all are trying to force the lynch on someone else. It doesn't make you guys look townier. I have only 1 solid twon read and that Aero.

I still have problem with town reading Garmr
I'm struggling to believe AI is town
I have Direfire and dave in my null category
and I'm scumreading Aj more becuase of his recent reactions

so AI why is direfire scum again - please please please don't go on POE . just make a solid case

Direfire why you think Aj is scum ?

Don't GO ON POE

Ty all

Garmr is town.
Dave is town.
Aj is town.
I am town.
Dierfire is scum.

[AlwaysInnocent]

www.hasdierfirebeenlynchedyet.com

[AlwaysInnocent]

http://www.hasdierfirebeenlynchedyet.com

Tell me why aj is town what reasoning do you have?

I think I have been clear enough about him?

[AlwaysInnocent]

This is why Aj (previously Radja) is not scum:

VOTE: Radja

And why are you voting me for not engaging with the game and not Mathilda who I'm voting for not engaging with the game? Aren't you just hypocritically doing what I'm doing?

Radja, if you play chicken with me, you will blink first, I guarantee it.

Albert B, Radja is likely stubborn town. Uncooperative and uncompromising to the point of it hurting himself.

He might look to be stubborn town to the untrained eye, but he's not.

It's very easy to fake posts like radja. I'll do it right back at him to prove it.

Albert B. was genuinely annoyed with Radja and wanted him lynched. Remember that Radja was close to actually being lynched at that point. After a while the wagon dissipated and Albert B. moved on to Mathilda.

[AlwaysInnocent]

My townread on Aj is further reinforced by my reasoning closely matching Aj's. This makes me more confident that he is town-motivated.

Contrast this with Dierfire's reasoning, which seems really, really off, in a self-contradicting way.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I don't know about that game, but I do remember scum-Albert B. being really annoyed with me, when I voted for him for lurking. This feels very similar to his conflict with Radja.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Weird game. I would probably have been fooled by him as well. But it still feels different this time.

[AlwaysInnocent]

What are you trying to say, Garmr?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Oh that scum are just as likely to bus with genuine frustration as he may of viewed radja as taking the team down.

I don't know how you play as scum, but I tend to treat scum as "buddies" (at least behind the scenes). We're in it together. Even if a partner doesn't play so well, I'm not going to throw them under the bus because I feel like they screw up the game.

Dwlee showed frustration as well and didn't act to much on it.

Radja your vote is absolute garbage. It's absolute hypocrisy.

Because Dwlee was defending his partner in crime.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Unless I have their consent to bus, of course. Sometimes it is inevitable. But in Radja's case? No way.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Oh that scum are just as likely to bus with genuine frustration as he may of viewed radja as taking the team down.

I don't know how you play as scum, but I tend to treat scum as "buddies" (at least behind the scenes). We're in it together. Even if a partner doesn't play so well, I'm not going to throw them under the bus because I feel like they screw up the game.

Dwlee showed frustration as well and didn't act to much on it.

Radja your vote is absolute garbage. It's absolute hypocrisy.

Because Dwlee was defending his partner in crime.

That's your problem. Because you are constantly saying that's not how I play. Guess what not everyone plays like you. If you use the same standards for everyone as what you would do you are just doing two things.

I know that's not how everyone plays, but it is the most rational play.

1.You are making yourself easier to read

Meh. It is just common sense. Besides, this information is initially unavailable since you don't know how people will flip.

2.Scum will know how to manipulate you and play to your standards and you end up being a tool for them.

It's not as easy as you think it is. I can be deceived and manipulated like everyone else, but if you think I'm an easy tool because I give insights into my play, then you're very mistaken.

Hell everyone is different and not to long ago bussing your scum buddies was a must do every game now that's died down.

When I played on other sites, I bussed every game for town creds. But, there is a difference between that and the genuine frustration expressed by Albert B. and Dwlee.

(1) Bussing for the sake of bussing is much gentler than being upset with a townie.
(2) There is the element of consent.

[AlwaysInnocent]

well I like to vote Aj or AI today I think they have a decent chance to flip scum.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I totally missed that VC.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Garmr, I know you won't be convinced by me saying that I am town, but at least listen to me when I say that Aj is town.

[AlwaysInnocent]

There are two possible situations:

(1) I'm the last remaining scum and Aj is town.
(2) I'm town and I am sincerely townreading Aj.

Either way it's the truth.

[AlwaysInnocent]

One question: who was/is the cop?

[AlwaysInnocent]

unless he is scum and your wrong about him?

Sure, but you can trust me I am doing my best to get an accurate read on him. It can't be the case that we are both scum and that I am defending him because of that.

[AlwaysInnocent]

so you want the lynch pool between you and direfier today?

It is the best way to guarantee that Dierfire will be lynched.

[AlwaysInnocent]

FA, I don't like how you are basically suspicious of everyone but Aeronaut.

[AlwaysInnocent]

This must be my worst game ever. As promised, I will update my signature after this game.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I have an idea, but since I have been wrong almost every single time, I want to think about it a bit more.

I don't think it's Aj. I remembered something about the role speculation which led to Albert B.'s lynch.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Also, this is Lylo. Let's not vote yet so we can prevent a quick hammer by scum.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I seriously thought it was lylo. This is better.

Aeronaut, do you remember what you said about this setup before?

Albert B. was lynched because there couldn't be a Miller and Ascetic role. However Albert B. was confirmed Ascetic. But we never questioned Dave afterwards. We assumed that Taly would not have fakeclaimed because it could be counterclaimed on D1. But I think Taly was confident that he wouldn't be counterclaimed because he knew Albert B.'s role. He knew that there couldn't be both a Miller and Ascetic.

This means FA was right all along for being skeptical about the Miller claim.

[AlwaysInnocent]

But don't take my word for it. Just do the reasoning yourselves.

[AlwaysInnocent]

OK. Who is your main suspect then?

[AlwaysInnocent]

I don't understand wanting to go for a miller at this point. Unless you see something to say that was just a gambit, I'm not a fan of lynching it.

But if it's not Dave, and it's not you, then who is the remaining scum? I can tell you it isn't me either.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Well, I don't think it's you. Even though I was wrong about Dierfire, I feel that we were both wrong about Dierfire. We both had each other as potential scum candidates and preferred Dierfire over each other. I thought it was a solid case, but it was not. And for this, I am sorry, Dierfire. You were being honest all this time and I kept seeing you as a liar. It is not impossible that you are scum, but I am inclined to believe we had a similar thought process because we were both town.

Since this is not LYLO, I am wondering who you would consider as the last scum if I flipped town?

[AlwaysInnocent]

I want everyone alive to answer this question.

Suppose that I am town. Who could the remaining scum be?

[AlwaysInnocent]

My leaning has been you and Dier. I was wrong on dier so I'm being more cautious, but the only thought I had was if there was going to be two scum left, it would've been dier+FA. I don't think FA is scum with you, largely because Dier was the only questionable interactions that I associated with her. I don't see a case for dav, neither him nor his predecessor have concerned me. So currently I am inclined to believe it is you.

Two scum left? I assume there is only one scum left?

[AlwaysInnocent]

So... Where is everybody?

[AlwaysInnocent]

I want to believe it's you since I had you as scum from day 1.

Just because you want to believe it doesn't make it true. I learned this the hard way with Dierfire.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I want to believe it's you since I had you as scum from day 1.

Just because you want to believe it doesn't make it true. I learned this the hard way with Dierfire.

You could've been 100x more convincing here by showing any sort of real concern.

+The fact that you too are not considering me as scum, at all. The way you talk to me suggests you believe me to be town, but your sentence wants you to imply some indecision on your own part. However, this contradicts yourself unless you're considering one or aero/fa scum.

What the hell are you talking about? This has to do with you being wrong as town. There is still some indecision on my part (being wrong about Dierfire kind of screwed me over), but my sentence didn't imply that in any way.

You're forgetting about Dave, by the way.

[AlwaysInnocent]

The case on Dave is actually the same case as on Albert B.

Does this mean I am confident? No. I shouldn't be confident after being wrong so many times. So I leave it up to you to sort it out.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Backtrack some more. You managed to convince me that Albert B. was scum because the roles didn't match up.

There couldn't be both a Miller and Ascetic in this game. This was deemed unfair for town. So Albert B had to be lying right? But Albert B was actually an Ascetic.

So either

1) There is actually a Miller and the game has too many investigation immune/tampering roles. We lynched Albert B because this was deemed unlikely.
2) Or Taly was lying from the start because he knew he would not be counterclaimed.

Which one is it?

[AlwaysInnocent]

A scum ascetic and a town miller balance each other. No reason both can't exist.

They don't balance each other. They make the Cop role even weaker.

AI is just trying to cast doubt by forgetting to mention that ABR was scum.

Holy shit. When did I "forget" to mention that?

The whole discussion was on the impossibility of both of those roles being present

as town

.

That

and

them both being in the same setup. Ascetic still negatively influences the EV of Town.

A scum flip for ABR makes it

more likely

that town has a miller.

I have never heard of that one before. Statistics or it didn't happen.

The only thing I know is that a Miller or Ascetic necessitate the existence of a Cop.

Taly did the right thing by claiming it right away, and I did the right thing by confirming it right away as soon as I replaced in.

Right. If you are town, it was the best thing to do. But I'm wondering whether it was not an elaborate hoax.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Also remember that ascetic is not just investigation immune -- it is immune to everything else too. It is a more powerful role than miller.
In fact, ascetic is positive utility for scum where miller is negative utility for town.

Ascetic has negative utility for Town, regardless of the alignment of the Ascetic.

[AlwaysInnocent]

How do you know it's AJ if it's not me?

[AlwaysInnocent]

FA and Aeronaut are town.
I am town.
So it has to be Aj or Dave. Havng a Miller in addition to an Ascetic is not impossible I guess, but given the situation at hand, it makes the claim more doubtful.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I'm like 99% sure it's you.

Yeah. I was 99% sure of Dierfire too. Then I realized what I thought would be my best game on MafiaScum turned out to be my worst game ever. See, overconfidence is a nasty thing and it hurts your performance dramatically.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Omg. How do you know it's not Dave? I'm not saying it can't be Aj, but don't you think you shouldn't think it through a bit more?

[AlwaysInnocent]

I agree, if it's not AI then it pretty much has to be AJ.

Of course. It is the best play for you no matter your alignment. But I think we should have someone look at it that doesn't have a stake in this lynch.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Obviously Aj is going to say it's you when I flip town.
And obviously you are going to say it's Aj when I flip town.

Since I lack any credibility this game, it all depends on FA and Aeronaut to make the right choices.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I don't know. My track record is terrible. Being wrong all the time sure doesn't make people townread me.

I wouldn't believe me either if I didn't know any better.

But this is pretty WIFOM-ish. I can't use it to prove I'm town. I'm pretty much screwed. I can say "read my ISO", but I have done that before and you are only seeing things that further reinforce your scumread on me.

[AlwaysInnocent]

oh w8 cop was even nights only ...

thats too many things weakening its power

Oh my God. Best find ever. You're truly amazing.

[AlwaysInnocent]

oh w8 cop was even nights only ...

thats too many things weakening its power

What does this effect?

From a balance POV, it would make the Miller claim less likely to be true.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Unless there's an uneven Cop we don't know about.

[AlwaysInnocent]

there are two roles that can't be investigated and he can't only investigate in half of the nights

thats just making him useless ... :/

Let's try to submit a setup like this to be reviewed and see if it gets rejected.

[AlwaysInnocent]

(Just kidding. But I do suspect that it would be heavily criticized.)

[AlwaysInnocent]

we had a motion detector scum

why we had a motion detector scum

whats that role can someone explain ?

Oh, right. It is like a Tracker and Watcher combined, but you don't get to know any targets or actors. That's another role that can be blocked by the Ascetic.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Oh, wait. Scum you say.

[AlwaysInnocent]

So the Cop would also be exposed by the Motion Detector, if it tries to investigate the Motion Detector. It would make scum more likely to target the Cop.

[AlwaysInnocent]

investigate anyone and is targeted by the Motion Detector*

[AlwaysInnocent]

Are you town reading AI?
I'm handing you scum on a silver platter and you're not reading what I'm saying.

You're handing people "scum on a silver platter", eh? If you're town, have you not learned anything from the overconfidence?

[AlwaysInnocent]

I'm going to play some more Age of Empires 2. At least I know who my enemies are in that game.

[AlwaysInnocent]

@FA: You have "too easy to be true" syndrome. Never say never.

@AI: There is 0% chance that I'm scum. If Aero and FA are both town (seems very likely) then it's at least 50% of hitting scum today and 100% chance of town winning.
VCA and your behavior (in particular who you scumread and why) say it's you.
If you really are town, then AJ should be your target.

@Aero: That's utter bullshit, I've done plenty town.

Believe it or not, I am really town. The most terrible town player in the world currently, but yeah, definitely town. I double-checked to be sure.

If you think I should have at you at "0% chance to be scum" if you were town, then you have really crazy ideas.

[AlwaysInnocent]

By the way, Vanilla Townie also has 100% chance to be town. Every game. Just check it if you don't believe it.

I am a VT. Therefore 100% guaranteed town.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Mafia Miller

: if targeted by a Cop, the result will show "guilty".

Mortal Townie

: if targeted for a nightkill, they will die as usual (unless protected).

[AlwaysInnocent]

Trackable PR

: if targeted by a Tracker, the Tracker will know who you targeted (unless roleblocked).

[AlwaysInnocent]

1-Shot Bulletproof 1-Shot Bulletproof

: your 1-Shot Bulletproof is protected by another 1-Shot Bulletproof. You will become a regular 1-Shot Bulletproof if you are attacked.

[AlwaysInnocent]

If you really are town, then AJ should be your target.

No, but I am not saying it is impossible. It seems unlikely that you are the Miller, because the Cop would be so grossly underpowered that it is unlikely that the game setup would have been accepted.

Meta-gaming.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Likely, but I am very cautious about being too confident this time.

[AlwaysInnocent]

What do you mean? Albert B. never wanted to push Taly. He only expressed his "concerns" about it. Furthermore, he added some joke about why Taly had to be scum, but then said that there were better lynch candidates. If the Taly/Dave slot is scum, then the joke could be seen as a way to discredit the idea that we should look into the Miller claim, in combination with his suggestion that we should focus on other people.

[AlwaysInnocent]

What do you mean by "the Miller seems a bit weak role"? Do you mean that the Miller with an even-day-Cop is less harmful to Town than a Miller with an every-day-Cop? Or the opposite?

[AlwaysInnocent]

In that case, I'll state my intent to hammer. If it's not too early.

[AlwaysInnocent]

only If aero pushes it?

put aside dave miller stuff for one sec

is he scum for sake of being himself?

No?

I think he's scum because:

1) Role setup speculation points in the direction of there not being a Miller.
2) Dave's interactions with Albert B.
3) He hasn't done anything Town (true, me neither, but still).

[AlwaysInnocent]

So why were you hesitating to vote him before?

I was talking with Aero in neighbourhood about it. You were the one who started this day phase with throwing shade on him

When?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Let me ask you. I have been wrong all the time in this game. What kind of attitude do you think is best in my case? An overly confident attitude? Or a more cautious attitude?

[AlwaysInnocent]

I explicitly said that I wanted your input. Clearly my problem in this game has been my confirmation bias. It helps to have other people look at it first without pushing it too hard.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Let me ask you. I have been wrong all the time in this game. What kind of attitude do you think is best in my case? An overly confident attitude? Or a more cautious attitude?

I'm not talking about cautious I'm talking about your scummy muddying the water and watching it get dirty

So I shouldn't have any ideas?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Let me ask you. I have been wrong all the time in this game. What kind of attitude do you think is best in my case? An overly confident attitude? Or a more cautious attitude?

I'm not talking about cautious I'm talking about your scummy muddying the water and watching it get dirty

So I shouldn't have any ideas?

never said that don't misrepresent me ,

In that case you shouldn't misrepresent me either.

your today posts are highly scummy and I already mentioned it multiple times in Neighbourhood with Aero , I just was unsure to state them today or take them as a frustration issue for a town!you

What do you mean take them as a frustration issue? Do you have an issue with my play if I am town? I don't try to be annoying or unhelpful. I am just sucking so hard this game.

[AlwaysInnocent]

It is probably easy to fake my hesitant play this day if I were scum.

But other things are a lot harder (and riskier) to fake.

[AlwaysInnocent]

My frustration with FA after her hammer on FB.

[AlwaysInnocent]

After re-reading, I am more convinced that it is Dave. It is not LYLO, and it would resolve the Miller claim anyhow, so I am willing to take the risk.

VOTE: Dave

I'll take responsibility for this hammer.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I'll take responsibility for this hammer.

what do you mean by this?

That I take responsibility in case I'm wrong.

[AlwaysInnocent]

You know he is flipping town don't you?

I think he will flip scum, but I can't say for sure. I've been thinking about it over and over again, and the roles just don't add up. In combination with the weird interactions with Albert B.

But let's wait first. The game could very well be over right now.

[AlwaysInnocent]

This has definitely been my worst game so far.

Sorry Dierfire and Dave.

I think FA was quite convincing, although I take issue with her early AtEs. I think they went a little too far. You shouldn't mix RL stuff with games.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I know. You are who you are, but they end up being appeals to emotion (which you accused me of as well, even though they were just assessments of my own bad play).

[AlwaysInnocent]

I mean, you even mentioned something very personal that heavily influenced how I read you. When you use that to defend yourself in game (when you have a deceptive role, in fact), then I think that's a bit over the top.

If people scumread you, and you bring up stuff like therapy, then it seems like the scumreading is

hurting

you. So people will want to avoid that.

[AlwaysInnocent]

If there is anything that you want to tell me

any reserved insults

any points about my personality and relation of it to game please do it here. I will be really thankful

No? Please don't say that. I would not insult you. I don't have anything against you.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I'm really sorry about my day 1 when I explained my treatments when I've been asked about my reactionary behavior. I had no intention to use my RL for the game. It wasn't nice

I understand. Anyway, you played really well afterwards. Bussing Firebringer and Albert B. was quite convincing.

You might want to discuss the bussing with the scum you're bussing before bussing, though.