Mini 1758: Game Over

a plain farmer · Post Post #7 (isolation #0) » Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:14 am

VOTE: camn

Cam Newton? Don't you have more important things to be doing right now?

a plain farmer · Post Post #36 (isolation #1) » Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:38 pm

How do we like this one for a quicklynch: VOTE: Zulfy?

a plain farmer · Post Post #50 (isolation #2) » Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:41 pm

I'm reaffirming my Zulfy vote. His quicklynch thing was playful, but I could see it as scum testing the water, seeing if there were some people in this game foolhardy enough to actually pile on and set up a legitimate quicklynch.

a plain farmer · Post Post #111 (isolation #3) » Sat Jan 30, 2016 9:30 am

@Performer: My vote's on Zulfy as of Post 36, but it may have been missed because it wasn't at the beginning of a line. I'll make sure to put all future votes at the start of lines.

In post 78, Zulfy wrote:
Any other reads?

Not really. I get a nullread on the tictac/Random back-and-forth.

a plain farmer · Post Post #157 (isolation #4) » Sat Jan 30, 2016 6:37 pm

In post 140, SirCakez wrote:
In post 139, RadiantCowbells wrote:I'm actually pretty sure Camn is scum and it's already 6 pages in.

I mean there's the risk of it being a confbias since it's this early in the game but I think she's actually just scum again here.

I don't see this at all. Explain?

I second this. It sounds like this is a meta-based read, so if you could elaborate, RC, that'd be great.

It's also weird that despite being "pretty sure Camn is scum", you didn't get your vote on her until 4 posts later.

a plain farmer · Post Post #159 (isolation #5) » Sat Jan 30, 2016 6:49 pm

And the tictac vote earlier was to make it seem like you weren't immediately homing in on her because you already knew she was scum. Well played.

a plain farmer · Post Post #191 (isolation #6) » Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:11 pm

Hmph. The frivolity in this thread.

In post 190, RadiantCowbells wrote:Actually go with me on this.

VOTE: Tictac

I suppose my conscience can get behind this. I like what he says, but not how he votes.

a plain farmer · Post Post #192 (isolation #7) » Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:12 pm

Oops, forgot this:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: tictac

BTW: welcome, ika! Please consider sheeping RC and I.

a plain farmer · Post Post #227 (isolation #8) » Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:22 am

Some reads:

CKD seems like a townie.
Lokiben seems like a townie.
Camn seems like a townie.
RC seems like a townie who's been told that if he's NK'ed he'd be killed in real life, too.
Zulfy tripped my alarms early but hasn't made me suspect him since.
Tictac is scummy because of the way his posts appear to stretch the facts to support the vote that would be most fashionable.
Everyone else is null (I'd say everyone else is a little scummy, but then they can't all be scum).

In post 215, tictac wrote:@farmer
You are way quieter here than ya were on 1380.
Why?

In 1380 I decided I would take tons of notes and put them through analysis. This gave me a lot of junk to fill posts with, but it turned out to be just that- junk. I'm going with my gut this time. I also seemed louder in 1380 because that game was quieter than this one.

a plain farmer · Post Post #269 (isolation #9) » Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:09 pm

Let's let democracy solve the SRMP avatar issue. If you think SRMP should get an avatar, vote tictac. If not, vote no lynch.

By the way, SRMP, do you still think Zulfy is the scummiest?

In post 256, Some Random Mafia Player wrote:
In post 255, curiouskarmadog wrote:
In post 252, RadiantCowbells wrote:Every single post by Camn pings my gut

Are any of you able to suspect why your guts were pinged by camn?

a plain farmer · Post Post #296 (isolation #10) » Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:29 am

In post 272, tictac wrote:
In post 227, a plain farmer wrote:Some reads:

A reads-list in response to me pointing out that your play is different from 1380, where your early play was list heavy.
Looks more like you are correcting your play to match the earlier game, than an attempt to contribute.

I just wanted to make my opinions known. Also, I'll preemptively let everyone know that I'm an indecisive person, so changes in my reads should be considered null tells.

Camn seems like a townie.

Why?

I like her votes.

RC seems like a townie who's been told that if he's NK'ed he'd be killed in real life, too.

I agree.
Why do
you
think so? Being afraid of getting lynched is usually seen as a scum-tell.

Cowbells' posts haven't indicated fear of the noose so far. We can WIFOM his posting into scum-tells, but we probably shouldn't do that on D1.

Also, I see that Cowbells is in tons of games on this site, so the body of Cowbells meta is huge. But I've only read through one of these games (Diablo III Mafia), and Cowbells was scum in it. Scum Cowbells had a different playstyle than what I'm seeing now (interestingly, it had more scum-hunting). If Diablo III Cowbells isn't representative of scum Cowbells, let me know.

Tictac is scummy because of the way his posts appear to stretch the facts to support the vote that would be most fashionable.
Everyone else is null (I'd say everyone else is a little scummy, but then they can't all be scum).

What facts am I stretching?
I can see the camn-vote as 'fashionable'. Rando & Zulf not so much. Your reasons to think so?

Your Rando vote was the third on the wagon, which I'd say qualifies as fashionable in this game. Ditto the camn vote. The Zulfy vote maybe not so much, but I was voting for him so I can say that it was still fashionable. Also, like I said earlier, I like what you say, but not how you voted. The reasons you put up don't seem voteworthy to me. I'll excuse your Rando vote from this since it was just page 2, but I don't share your alarm at Zulfy's post 87, and I think camn was clear on what her intentions were regarding Rando.

It's not that the content of posts don't matter. It's just that we've all seen townies make brain farts in their posts that look like scumslips, whereas brain farts in voting are rare.

This concludes my response to tictac. I'll address other things in a few hours.

a plain farmer · Post Post #315 (isolation #11) » Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:17 pm

@ CKD:

In post 254, curiouskarmadog wrote:
In post 243, camn wrote:
In post 205, curiouskarmadog wrote:who here do you supposed will "read the iso"?

Anyone who is interested in finding scum?

Lets be real tho- pressure votes are pressure votes.
I gotta get back to bussing

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Tictac

wait a minute, what the fuck? who is scum?

What prompted this question?

@ SirCakez
Do you have #2 scumread after tictac?

@ camn

In post 299, camn wrote:
In post 296, a plain farmer wrote:I'll preemptively let everyone know that I'm an indecisive person, so changes in my reads should be considered null tells.

Huh.

I said that in hopes to minimize time wasted on town-on-town accusations.

a plain farmer · Post Post #340 (isolation #12) » Wed Feb 03, 2016 7:08 pm

@ Loki
I think you and Elyse are both town. The underlying point of conflict between the two of you seems to be a differing conception of what basis reads should have. Elyse's reads have had more to do with tone and train of thought than with the words written or the arguments they form.

It's true that it's a weak read to say that your RVS vote was "stilted and awkward", but just as RVS votes have RVS reasons, so do the reads that bring us out of RVS. Your reaction in 124 could be interpreted as overly defensive, especially the leap to questioning "what possible scum motive" could it have had, since it clearly wasn't a calculated move. So when she said your posts were scumreads, I understood it to mean that she thought they were suggestive that you were scum, not that they were part of a scum maneuver.

I'll note here something that'll return to my mind if I do start suspecting Elyse, and that is her posts 152 and 180. 152 is the one where she didn't acknowledge your post and changed her vote to camn. 180 is where she seemed dismissive, perhaps because she thought you were scum, perhaps because she interpreted 162 as you doubling-down on "triple post is a no-no", but also perhaps because she was overly conscious of her vote change in 152 and wanted to deflect attention from it.

@ Elyse and Loki
Which do each of you think is scummiest between Tictac, Camn, SirCakez, and RC?

a plain farmer · Post Post #358 (isolation #13) » Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:20 am

In post 343, SirCakez wrote:Plain farmer are those players your four scum reads? What do you think of CKD?

Those four players were the only ones with multi-vote wagons. I only have substantial scumreads on SirCakez and tictac.

Cakez's support of wagons has been mostly in the background rather than foreground, which I find scummy, and when it has come to giving scumreads, he has copied from the reads of others.

The main focus of his exertions has been defending himself. As he said, townies should defend themselves, but it's the ratio of his defense to offense that seems scummy.

The phrasing of some of his posts also seem token, as if he was afraid that adding more than was necessary would risk the escape of something from a scum subconscious (see 218, 221, 223, 258, 260, and 326).

Tictac's response to the wagon on him has been OK, and he's no longer the scummiest in this thread.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: SirCakez

And to answer your question on CKD, he worries me a little bit, but my instinct is to punt on the issue of lurkers and come back to it D2.

a plain farmer · Post Post #494 (isolation #14) » Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:15 pm

I'm willing to hammer ika if no one else has anything left to say. I checked his meta for myself to make sure. He's a frequent poster across the board as town. As scum, he lurks in some of his games in and in others it's arguable. But there's an obvious correlation between his alignment and activity, and, as Camn showed, he's been active elsewhere recently. This is about as objective a reason as we could get for Day 1.

a plain farmer · Post Post #497 (isolation #15) » Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:29 pm

Then I'll stay my hand.

a plain farmer · Post Post #510 (isolation #16) » Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:52 pm

I wasn't one of the ones Elyse was talking about, but, for example, you scum lurked to a large degree in Uncouth Mafia, Star Trek DS9, Spring Waltz, and Open 609 and semi-lurked in Inorganic Chemistry and Open 607.

You were active town in Mini 1758, NY 182, Micro 537, and Opens 606, 610, 611, 613, 614, and 618.

These were the first games of yours I came across when I went looking, so it's not like I cherrypicked them, and in none did I see you as lurker town.

a plain farmer · Post Post #522 (isolation #17) » Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:58 pm

VOTE: ika

a plain farmer · Post Post #565 (isolation #18) » Mon Feb 08, 2016 7:41 am

In post 539, Some Random Mafia Player wrote:>I wasent here to unvote

well fuck

This is a scummy post. I don't think a townie voices regrets of his vote prior to the flip.

In post 550, tictac wrote:
In post 510, a plain farmer wrote:I wasn't one of the ones Elyse was talking about, but, for example, you scum lurked to a large degree in Uncouth Mafia, Star Trek DS9, Spring Waltz, and Open 609 and semi-lurked in Inorganic Chemistry and Open 607.

You were active town in
Mini 1758
, NY 182, Micro 537, and Opens 606, 610, 611, 613, 614, and 618.

These were the first games of yours I came across when I went looking, so it's not like I cherrypicked them, and in none did I see you as lurker town.

Mini 1758 is what we are playing now. How did it come to be included in a list of games Ika was active town in?

I'd like you to describe your research in as much detail as possible, particularly the selection of games to include.
Because I am
kinda
doubting the sincerity of your research here.

VOTE: Farmer

I began by clicking on the link to ika's threads in his profile to find games he was in. There were a lot of threads that weren't game threads, so I changed the filter so that it organized posts by forum. However, I couldn't sort by date with this filter, and I was more interested in recent games, so I instead just looked in the game forums themselves for games ika was in. Those are the games I found, and he seems to disproportionately prefer Opens. "Mini 1758" is apparently a malapropism for the Mini I found, I can't remember which.

I agree that the speed at which yesterday's lynch was achieved is scummy (especially considering how little momentum all the other wagons except SirCakez's were able to gain). It was fast enough to suggest that there were two scum on the wagon. If it was indeed a case of scum scrambling to save SirCakez, then those two scum are probably in {SirCakez, SRMP, UpTooLate, tictac} (the members of ika's wagon that weren't on SirCakez).

VOTE: SirCakez

a plain farmer · Post Post #569 (isolation #19) » Mon Feb 08, 2016 7:51 am

Elyse suddenly jumping wagons like that would be scummy under normal circumstances, but her reason seemed sound enough to me that I'll disregard it for now.

I apologize to anyone who had wished for more answers on D1. In retrospect, I shouldn't have hammered that night.

a plain farmer · Post Post #572 (isolation #20) » Mon Feb 08, 2016 8:06 am

In post 555, Lokiben wrote:Slept peacefully. Will have meaningful post later.

In post 556, SirCakez wrote:There's no night results here Loki.

What's this about?

a plain farmer · Post Post #613 (isolation #21) » Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:19 am

I'll make a proper post later but I just want to point out that SirCakez is at L-1. Let's not hammer him. Do as I say, not as I do.

a plain farmer · Post Post #771 (isolation #22) » Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:02 pm

UNVOTE:

Welp, we have two weeks until the deadline. I say we go for a picnic.

And yes I am for lynching CKD. I thought he might have been a townie who made a blunder, but I have a hard time imagining a townie defending himself from these allegations by implying that RC's vote for him left him no recourse.

@ RC:
I have a couple questions for you:

In post 709, RadiantCowbells wrote:I have a confirmed scum on camn.

Why is camn "confirmed" scum?

In post 656, RadiantCowbells wrote:This is not how I feel like Town!Sircakez would react to being brought up so abruptly.

I've seen you and others on this site use this ! notation. How is this used?

a plain farmer · Post Post #772 (isolation #23) » Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:44 pm

Here I respond to tictac, put in spoiler due to size:

Spoiler: Re: my rigorous meta research methodology

In post 595, tictac wrote:
In post 565, a plain farmer wrote:I began by clicking on the link to ika's threads in his profile to find games he was in.

You didn't include machina mafia, minis 1737 or 1734 (first 3 marked completed games on Ikas history. Possible some of those were only recently marked completed, but I doubt all of them were.)

There were a lot of threads that weren't game threads, so I changed the filter so that it organized posts by forum. However, I couldn't sort by date with this filter,

Blitz games come up first, but ok. I would have discarded those, if I was attempting what you say you tried.
You didn't include White Flag Mafia[TM2015](first actual game that comes up).. lots of threads that aren't main game threads come up first, I would have abandoned this approach too.
However it does seem to be sub-sorting by date by default. Weird that is your gripe with it.

There might've been some I skipped. I think I only pulled one or two of the example games using this search method before I went to start looking in the game subforums. And, yes, I did ignore blitz games, since lurking in a blitz game is not precisely the same behavior as lurking in a non-blitz game.

and I was more interested in recent games, so I instead just looked in the game forums themselves for games ika was in.

But you apparently didn't look at completed games subforum of little italy.(didn't include minis 1707,1734,1737)
Which forums did you check? I'm trying to re-create your experience here, to see if it makes sense. As much detail as you can give will be useful.

I know I looked in either (maybe both) of Little Italy and Coney Island. The Mini 1758 is actually one of the games from those forums. I can't remember anything about it beyond what I've said so far.

Those are the games I found, and he seems to disproportionately prefer Opens. "Mini 1758" is apparently a malapropism for the Mini I found, I can't remember which.

Malaprotism does not sufficiently explain the inclusion of this game to me, since "1758" isn't a word.
I will confirm that the games you listed as having town-Ika did, and ones you listed as having a scum-Ika did.

It may not be a malapropism, but the same cognitive malfunction that's behind malapropisms is probably behind this. If you're wondering how the number "1758" got in my mind, that's probably because that number is at the top of the page in the thread title as I type these responses.

@ SRMP

In post 647, Some Random Mafia Player wrote:Interested in discussion on this scumslip by farmer up here, especially an explanation from him.

"Mini 1758" was included in that list as a typo, probably resulting from a malapropism. For further articulation of this theory, see the last part of the spoilered text above.

On UTL's 594: The way she had phrased it also made me think that she had a scumread on Elyse, and she probably should've anticipated that we would have understood it as such. However, I'm not sure this is alignment indicative (maybe a slight scumtell?), and the point acryon was making in the quoted portion is a valid one.

a plain farmer · Post Post #773 (isolation #24) » Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:56 pm

In post 633, Zulfy wrote:
RC seems like a townie who's been told that if he's NK'ed he'd be killed in real life, too.
Not at all how'd you get this?

I said this at the time because RC had given a few good reads and votes, and though most of his posts were joke posts, I didn't see them as coming from a scum perspective or hindering town.

In post 633, Zulfy wrote:
Zulfy tripped my alarms early but hasn't made me suspect him since.
Indicate where I did so

This was what I mentioned in post 50 about the possible quicklynch testing.

a plain farmer · Post Post #818 (isolation #25) » Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:55 pm

I'm not as confident in my CKD scumread as I was last night. Prior to yesterday's outbreak, there's nothing in his ISO that pings my scumdar. And the more I think of his behavior, the less it becomes a question of "why would town do this" as opposed to "why would someone of any alignment do this?". His initial rolefishing and reaction to being voted is still scummy, but I'm OK with not lynching him today.

Someone with a really scummy ISO is UpTooLate. I feel like her posts come from a perspective of someone who already knows everyone's alignment. This comes through in the way she expounds upon others' reads without contributing many of her own, as well as her tendency to follow the consensus (since scum would know that townies are innocent, it's easier for them to go along with TvT accusations than make some of their own).

SirCakez hasn't been quite as scummy on Day 2 as Day 1, but still scummy. It's tough for me to decide which of them deserves my vote, but it probably doesn't matter because they're probably partners.

VOTE: UpTooLate

a plain farmer · Post Post #819 (isolation #26) » Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:57 pm

@ RadiantCowbells

Could you please answer these:

In post 771, a plain farmer wrote:

In post 709, RadiantCowbells wrote:I have a confirmed scum on camn.

Why is camn "confirmed" scum?

In post 656, RadiantCowbells wrote:This is not how I feel like Town!Sircakez would react to being brought up so abruptly.

I've seen you and others on this site use this ! notation. How is this used?

a plain farmer · Post Post #872 (isolation #27) » Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:08 pm

Reads for Cowbells:

Lokiben - town - I disagree with his scumread on Elyse, but the reasoning for it, as well as his posts in general, have a townie vibe about them.

camn - town-leaning - I thought she was very town on Day 1. On Day 2 I find the trail of her reasoning on CKD peculiar, but I'm not sure if it's indicative of alignment.

tictac - null - He's pushed a couple things today that I doubt a scum would bother to touch. The things he's pushing aren't particularly indicative of anything so he may be trying to waste the town's time, but I don't think so.

CKD - scum-leaning - My position is unchanged from 818. I still don't like the initial rolefishing and the reaction to his vote, but he hasn't done anything else scummy. He hasn't been particularly townie either, though. I'd say he's 3rd scummiest in this game right now after SirCakez and UTL.

SirCakez - scum - He's still top scum tier. He still has a proclivity for grasping. Look at his interpretations of tictac's posts. Tictac notices that I had Mini "1758" in my list of ika's meta games. In SirCakez's post, this becomes a "scumslip". Tictac raises questions about my knowledge of the subforums of the threads I referenced. In SirCakez's post, this becomes me "fak[ing] a meta dive".

a plain farmer · Post Post #876 (isolation #28) » Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:39 pm

In post 873, SirCakez wrote:If the games you referenced came out of a completely different subforum then the one you said something's obviously wrong there.
And I'm pretty sure tictac was calling that a scum slip as well, he just didn't say the exact word.

Yep. Because the most important thing to keep in mind when looking at another player's meta is the subforum the thread is in.

In post 864, tictac wrote:
In post 772, a plain farmer wrote:
I know I looked in either (maybe both) of Little Italy and Coney Island. The Mini 1758 is actually one of the games from those forums. I can't remember anything about it beyond what I've said so far.

Spoiler: Where those games can actually be found
Uncouth Mafia: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=6567302 (completed large theme)
DS9: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=7095553 (completed large theme)
Spring Waltz http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=6703724 (completed large theme)
Open 609 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=7229912 (central park)

Inorganic Chemistry http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=7102443 (completed large theme)
Open 607.http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=7260478 (central park)
NY 182 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=6693577 (completed large normal)
Micro 537 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=7298292 (Mayfair club)

Opens:
606 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=7368403 (Central park)
610 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=7319113 (Central park)
611 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=7224301 (Central park)
613 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=7305435 (Central park)
614 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=7325654 (Central Park)
618 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=64287 (Central Park)

No games from Little Italy nor Coney Island were included in the meta.

Since Farmer doesn't seem to know where the games in his meta come from, I'm gonna conclude that he didn't actually spend significant amount of time doing meta reading in Central Park or completed large themes forums. More likely to be someone elses work that he copy-pasted.
He's scum.

As I said in the passage you quoted, "I know I looked in either (maybe both) of Little Italy and Coney Island. The Mini 1758 is actually one of the games from those forums." So whatever game I meant to include but instead replaced it's number with "1758" is probably from Little Italy or Coney Island. Also, "I looked in" doesn't mean I found anything, so the absence of games from those forums suggests more about the thoroughness of my search than about me not knowing where any of these games come from.

Here was my mindset when I read the thread that evening: people were saying that lurker-ika is consistently scum. I find the statement both credible (since he's a prolific player and I'd think others with more playing experience here would have easily been able to jump in and provide counterexamples were it false) and damning. However, if I was to express intent to hammer, I wanted to at least sample some of his games, since I would have been hesitant had I found a lurker-town game. So I find 15 games, and no lurker-town ikas, which makes the already plausible case moreso, and makes me more comfortable hammering.

a plain farmer · Post Post #877 (isolation #29) » Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:40 pm

In post 822, RadiantCowbells wrote:Well he can't be the cop because I'm the cop.

:\

a plain farmer · Post Post #902 (isolation #30) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:59 pm

Regarding Cowbells' cop claim, I am not sure whether I believe it. His first post looked like he was trying to crumb cop:

In post 6, RadiantCowbells wrote:I am the radiant light that will lead us to glorious scum lynches.

...but crumbing like this is probably more indicative of scum. What made me think Cowbells might legitimately be a cop were two things: his Day 1 posting in such a way as to avoid being targeted by a night kill, and his reaction to CKD's fishing. In the first post in which he accuses CKD, Cowbells labels him a role cop. If Cowbells were vanilla, he probably would have inferred that CKD's fishing was just intuition rather than the result of an investigation. As UTL mentioned, one could have thought CKD had read Cowbells' slavery posts to be hinting at a mason relationship (or a relationship between cop Cowbells and the person he had investigated). This post also might have seemed to suggest the same:

In post 649, RadiantCowbells wrote:Elyse may be offended if you label us as a team like I'm her equal.

Please don't use such phrasings.

So Cowbells jumping to the "rolecop" conclusion suggests that he was either a power role or gambiting scum, and it's therefore easier to accept his present cop claim.

However, his cop claim was random and unforced, which makes me suspect he may just be dicking around. In this way, it reminds me of his masons shitclaim he did in Diablo III mafia, which seemed to just be a throwaway line that much of the rest of the town accepted for some reason (also, for what it's worth, he was scum in that game). I'll also note though that the masons claim there had none of the circumstantial evidence that the cop claim in this game has.

So basically this post is to say two things:
1) I don't really know what to make of Cowbells' claim.
2) Cowbells, do you stand by this claim, and, if so, can you state unambiguously for the record who you investigated last night and what your result was?

a plain farmer · Post Post #905 (isolation #31) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:04 pm

I don't think that's approved for Normal games :/

a plain farmer · Post Post #913 (isolation #32) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:11 pm

We'll make it through this, SirCakez. I think the UN is sending one of their humanitarian disaster relief teams.

a plain farmer · Post Post #924 (isolation #33) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:32 pm

You kinda are wasting your alive time by not dumping what you know.

a plain farmer · Post Post #935 (isolation #34) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:59 pm

SirCakez is top scum. He goes for the low-hanging fruit, pushes popular wagons without sticking himself too far out in doing so, gives opportunistic reads, and seems to grab on to anything he hopes will deflect suspicion from himself.

Camn is hard to read, but I think she's town. Her reads mostly make sense. She's been a little bit independent in this game, but not so independent that she seems to have different knowledge than town. I don't think her interpretation of the CKD thing is as obvious as she says it is, but I also don't think scum would tunnel so much for so long. I sometimes wonder when I'm drifting off to sleep why you are so adamant she's scum.

As to a Cakez/Camn partnership, nothing has pinged me to indicate this.

a plain farmer · Post Post #946 (isolation #35) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:34 am

@ tictac:

When I said this... (bolded part)

In post 772, a plain farmer wrote:
and I was more interested in recent games, so I instead just looked in the game forums themselves for games ika was in.

But you apparently didn't look at completed games subforum of little italy.(didn't include minis 1707,1734,1737)
Which forums did you check? I'm trying to re-create your experience here, to see if it makes sense. As much detail as you can give will be useful.

I know I looked in either (maybe both) of Little Italy and Coney Island.
The Mini 1758 is actually one of the games from those forums.

...it was obvious that I was responding to your claim that I didn't look at Little Italy games. You seem to be interpreting that as me saying I didn't look in any forums but those. The only forum I didn't look in was Blitzes, which I made note of, and had believed that the reader would assume I had looked in all forums minus the one I stated I hadn't looked in. As for your contention that it wouldn't happen by accident for the large theme games I found to have mostly had scum-ika, all I can say is that evidently it would.

On the mystery of the meta dive's authorship: I did it in about 20 minutes on Friday night. It didn't take long for me to check if the thread contained ika, and then look through his ISO at how much he posted and how those posts were spaced out. You're welcome do Google search this forum, since it is indexed there, or any other site, and I can assure you there will not be any evidence of plagiarism. If your suspicion is that my scumpartner wrote them, then I don't think that would be possible, since the Normal guidelines suggest that this game wouldn't have scum daytalk.

a plain farmer · Post Post #992 (isolation #36) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:34 am

Please don't lynch camn. This is the scummiest wagon of the game so far.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1009 (isolation #37) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:59 am

In post 1008, Zulfy wrote:VOTE: camn

Not good lynch

WTF is this?

a plain farmer · Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:04 am

If you were cop you would've said who you investigated last night. Unless you say so before the night starts, docs shouldn't waste their protection on you.

a plain farmer · Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:08 am

Camn said in her second to last post that her reads were already apparent, which means if she were town she might not want to go over them anyway. I'll wait for the flip.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1038 (isolation #40) » Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:32 pm

Annie was his wife?!

TIL...

I did a re-read of this thread. I'd like to say that camn's villainy was obvious on a second reading but no. A few posts I guess look a bit scummier. I'm writing a post right now in which I'll detail my thoughts.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1045 (isolation #41) » Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:45 pm

In post 1041, curiouskarmadog wrote:Just checking in. On phone. I have a result of a person "not visiting someone last night" this person is currently is in this game and is not Elyse or Scakes. I want EVERYONE to chime in. As I don't want to get fucking blamed for outing (even a vt) anyone again. Do you want this result?

No thanks. Revealing this right now wouldn't do much besides tell the scum who they shouldn't kill tonight.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1049 (isolation #42) » Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:19 pm

No one was voting camn at the time of her posting that. It was made at the height of the CKD wagon.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1050 (isolation #43) » Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:35 pm

Note: there's a TL;DR section at the end if you don't like walls, but I encourage everyone to read

every

point.

VOTE: SRMP

~~~~~~ SRMP's Scummy Voting ~~~~~~

Spoiler:

In 600 he votes SirCakez, doesn't present a case, and subsequently this exchange starts:

In post 606, Some Random Mafia Player wrote:
In post 602, SirCakez wrote:Yeah I think my scumreads are good right now.

seems like you have a problem with me voting you.

Why is that?

I don't like the mindset this post seems to come from. It's as if SRMP sees that the rest of the town recognizes SirCakez as flailing and figures he should come up with a reason to make this accusation as well, but the one he picks is "you have a problem with me voting you", which is a perfectly reasonable problem for SirCakez to have.

In post 618, Some Random Mafia Player wrote:
In post 612, SirCakez wrote:Zulfy vote had terrible reasoning behind it as you made the vote based on a joke post, ika vote was naked, vote one me was naked.

Zulfy I dident know if joke
ika was pressure we went through this.
You are a solid vote, but since I dont feel like iso digging will unvote for now.
UNVOTE: sircakez

Really a complete BS reason to unvote SirCakez. If Cakez was his top scumread, then a townie in that position would've kept his vote there regardless of whether he had a scummy quote to show everyone else or not.

In post 652, Some Random Mafia Player wrote:
In post 651, SirCakez wrote:The Zulfy vote, OK. You never explained why you weren't pressuring ika before the wagon though, and you haven't explained your vote on me.

im not on you, im too lazy to iso dig, and since that can easily be seen as an excuse im unlynching until I feel like digging through the iso.

I pressured ika because we were up to doing it. a one vote pressure would have not gotten anywhere.

This post is almost too scummy to be scum.

In post 657, Some Random Mafia Player wrote:
In post 655, SirCakez wrote:All wagons start somewhere.

but all I could say is "lurking", I dont know their meta at all (or anyones for that matter)

lynching someone for lurking and nothing else wont get a wagon.

He doesn't seem to realize that the reasoning behind the ika wagon wasn't merely "lurking", but, rather, what that lurking purportedly indicated. This makes his presence on the ika wagon even scummier.

In post 679, Some Random Mafia Player wrote:
In post 663, SirCakez wrote:You waited so long to start your pressure though.

Yeah, I waited because there needed to be a few votes first so there would actually be pressure there, if I was a lone vote there would be no pressure.

This really feels like an attempt at after-the-fact rationalization for his wagon jump. I don't know about you, but I've never witheld placing a vote because I felt that a vote placed later on the same person would apply more pressure.

In post 706, Some Random Mafia Player wrote:
In post 704, curiouskarmadog wrote:here is where I am at with you..I think you need to have a reason to be voting SCakes. I dont know if you are trying to push a quick lynch on a town...or if you are bussing a partner. but something about your vote and continued vote is pinging my radar. it does not feel genuine.

I do!
but iso digging is boring and thus why my vote isent there.

Again, a townie would have his vote on his top scumread regardless of whether he had a quote to show everyone else. SRMP seems afraid to do this.

Rewinding a bit to post 464...

In post 464, Some Random Mafia Player wrote:VOTE: ika

im fine with pressuring this slot.

The "pressure" reason is given again here. He says he's merely "fine with pressuring this slot" as if he doesn't want to overcommit to it.

Maybe, though, these sketchy pressure excuses aren't indicative of alignment, but rather of his voting philosophy whereby votes should be used to pressure?

In post 257, Some Random Mafia Player wrote:
In post 221, SirCakez wrote:I've only hopped one wagon, and that's because the first one I was on was dead and not going anywhere.

Thats why you make your case on me.

Just jumping on the biggest wagons isent going to get you anywhere.
Vote for who you think is the scummiest and present your case. Come deadline and your guy isent getting lynched, THEN you hop to the biggest wagon (or if multiple, the one that features who you think is the scummiest player) to get a lynch done.

Nope. He knows better.

~~~~~~ Camn's reads on SRMP, and his Scummy Reaction ~~~~~~

Spoiler:

~~~~~~ SRMP's scummy camn vote ~~~~~~

Spoiler:

In post 738, camn wrote:If I were scum, and I saw that shit between you and RC, I would nightkill you both. You softclaimed.

In post 833, camn wrote:Cowbells...no change from my last list.
CKD...you pretend to misunderstand. My referencing you and Cowbells as partners is SCUM partners, of course. Which is a setup I kind of doubt.
When you were spouting "its anti-town for me to explain"... That's a softclaim. You know it. I know it. There are no masons. You are no tracker. You were hoping Cowbells would buy your softclaim and back off. You failed.

Incidentally, Cowbells is no cop, either.

In post 835, Some Random Mafia Player wrote:If you were scum, and they looked like scum, why would you nightkill them?

In post 836, Some Random Mafia Player wrote:VOTE: Camn

Just to make sure we're clear, what camn was saying:
1) If I were scum and CKD claimed to be masons with RC, I'd kill them both. (Camn seems to have thought CKD was implicating himself as a mason with RC)
2) This whole thing may just be a gambit between a CKD-RC scumteam.

The first point occured in post 738, the second in 833. SRMP at first seems to think camn is still on the "if I were scum" hypothetical when she made point 2, and cast his vote on this basis. Now, not only is this a rather weak (read: fabricated) reason for a vote (Scumreading someone because they'd kill their scumread as scum?), but, more importantly, it seems to indicate that SRMP is having a hard time getting out of the "I know camn is scum" frame of mind.

In post 841, Some Random Mafia Player wrote:
In post 840, camn wrote:CKD dropped an obvious investigative soft-claim.
Here they are:

He said it wasent a pro town thing to do because he would out masons. How do we know that? When he did explain thats exactly what happened, and we know it isent a pro town thing because of all the votes on him.

In post 845, Some Random Mafia Player wrote:Camn, when did he crumb cop? The reason explaining would have been anti town was because he would have outed potential masons.

In post 848, Some Random Mafia Player wrote:
In post 847, camn wrote:Plus...even if he WAS talking about masons....how do you find masons? By investigating them and getting a guilty.

he dident know it from a fact, he had a read that they were masons and confirmed his suspicion by asking Elyse's read on R.

His subsequent posts after voting camn seem to indicate he's not very interested in actually pursuing this. These posts in particular make it look like he at first voted her to make it look like he was scumreading her, and is then trying to throw her a line under the guise of interrogation.

~~~~~~ Farmer's theory: SRMP's Scummy Avatar ~~~~~~

Spoiler:

TL;DR:

1) The reasoning behind SRMP's votes consistently suggest post-facto rationalizations, BS excuses about "pressuring", and not wanting his reasoning scrutinized by the town.

2) When reading SRMP, camn places him into a scum-leaning grey area that she can easily back out of.

3) Camn's vote on SRMP is based on supposed associative tells between him and tictac, which would only be viable if tictac and him were both scum. In SRMP's rebuttal, he doesn't even bother contesting the claim that scum-tictac equals scum-SRMP, as if he already knows that tictac wont flip scum.

4) When SRMP sees that camn is starting to get into hot water on D2, he wants to help reason her out of that hole, but to do so directly would leave him too vulnerable. So he votes for her, putting up a poor reason for doing so that reeks of having been fabricated for that purpose, and then tries to talk her into a more defensible position under the guise of an interrogation.

5) On D1, everything pointed to SRMP ignoring camn's request for him to get an avatar. But then suddenly on D2, when camn issued her ultimatum, he got an avatar, as if he appreciated camn's veteran presence in the scum thread that night and didn't want to lose her.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1053 (isolation #44) » Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:10 pm

How about we go for the sure thing and lynch SRMP today. Then we can have CKD track SirCakez. If CKD reports SirCakez left, we lynch Cakez. If CKD is killed, then it still looks bad enough for SirCakez to warrant the noose.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1054 (isolation #45) » Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:24 pm

You're putting me in the terrible position of having to explain why SirCakez is less scummy than someone else. Cakez is so widely scumread that to bus camn would mean losing a partner, then setting oneself up to get lynched the next day. Why would scum-SirCakez want to save himself when he was already damaged goods compared to camn?

a plain farmer · Post Post #1057 (isolation #46) » Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:29 pm

In post 1039, SirCakez wrote:VOTE: a plain farmer
This has to go after that flip.

And immediately after losing camn, he's now bussing me?

a plain farmer · Post Post #1058 (isolation #47) » Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:32 pm

Doesn't Cakez seem like the cautious type who would check the mood of the thread first before deciding if he needed to bus his pal, ole farmer?

a plain farmer · Post Post #1060 (isolation #48) » Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:34 pm

I'm arguing no such thing. You've shown yourself to be certain Cakez is scum. I am also thinking he is, but not as certain as I am of SRMP. But if I am to get through to you, I have to explain using your own assumptions that Cakez/farmer doesn't make sense.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1064 (isolation #49) » Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:51 pm

In post 935, a plain farmer wrote:Camn is hard to read, but I think she's town. Her reads mostly make sense. She's been a little bit independent in this game, but not so independent that she seems to have different knowledge than town. I don't think her interpretation of the CKD thing is as obvious as she says it is, but I also don't think scum would tunnel so much for so long.

Here's exhibit A as to why I didn't want to lynch camn yesterday. Embarassing.

In post 989, Performer wrote:camn (5):
curiouskarmadog
,
Some Random Mafia Player
,
UpTooLate
,
RadiantCowbells
,
SirCakez

Here's exhibit B as to why I didn't want to lynch camn yesterday, with names colored in accordance with my reads at the time.

In post 992, a plain farmer wrote:Please don't lynch camn. This is the scummiest wagon of the game so far.

And here's where I lept in front of her wagon. Scum would not say this. Scum would not expend any of their political capital in this thread on such a minimalistic plea. Scum would either stay silent, or maybe try to build up a case in camn's favor.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1112 (isolation #50) » Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:23 pm

On the prospect of Zulfy scum, my gut tells me that camn would be more inclined to put her partners in the scum or null section of her reads. Zulfy scum is possible, but unlikely.

Some Random Mafia Player wrote:
In post 607, SirCakez wrote:
Elyse, SRMP, RC scumteam maybe.
Acryon kill points to all three of them. Not sure where tictac fits in there though.
P-Edit: Because you ignored my request for reads and dropped a terrible naked vote.

In post 1040, SirCakez wrote:Zulfy is basically conftown after that hammer.
Loki town read is slipping.

I'm also starting to get suspicious of SRMP.

Wait, so if your starting to get suspicious of me, then you werent suspicious of me before, but...

You fucked up somewhere...

We get it, SRMP. You like to put on a show of bickering with your partner.

UpTooLate wrote:I'll try to look at this later, but after skimming I don't even know why there was even a case on Elyse after RC's flip? what?

It seems like the main suspects now are SirCakez, SRMP, and I. No hurry on this, but we could really use your judgment.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1137 (isolation #51) » Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:06 pm

@ CKD:
Your point about tictac scumreading camn and wanting a wagon on her without voting her is interesting and, indeed, scummy. His play is otherwise pro-town, with the exception of his case on me, which is a trifle and he seems smarter than to have made that the reason for his vote on me. But perhaps he did legitimately think I was scummier than camn.

The Acryon kill I feel is not necessarily attributable to him or anyone else. Acryon was autonomous and little-suspected, which would make him a good kill for any scumteam.

There is also the issue that, if SRMP is scum, tictac is probably town. I'll quote the relevant bit on this from 1050 (this bit talks about SRMP's response after camn gave him a scum-leaning read on associative tells with tictac):

In post 1050, a plain farmer wrote:
In post 316, Some Random Mafia Player wrote:
In post 312, camn wrote:My early vote was a thin, page one vote. Tictac piling on, and then the whole thing gets written off as "reaction testing" in 106 and 110. It sounds like tictac set that up in their scumchat.

It was obvious it was a reaction test, that reason was bad.

This comment is weird, but says nothing to contest the notion that scum-tictac would mean scum-SRMP (since this would presumably come from his knowledge as scum that tictac is town, and a camn-SRMP-tictac triple gambit here seems immensely unlikely).

If SRMP does flip town, though, tictac might be the #2 suspect after Cakez.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1146 (isolation #52) » Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:32 pm

In post 1127, Some Random Mafia Player wrote:
In post 1111, SirCakez wrote:His waffling around the camn wagon and awkward hop off.

I took him off of l-1, why would you push that...

You guys see this? "Why'd you suspect me for having done this super townie thing?"

But that would be too-easy towncred for him had it gone as he'd expected and camn went unlynched.

Right up until it actually happened, camn's lynch was by no means not imminent. I think most people expected the votes to shift back to Cakez. SRMP was just trying to save her from the quickhammer so that either a mislynch or the more-preferred lynch of his scumbuddies could happen instead.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1150 (isolation #53) » Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:40 pm

In post 1147, Some Random Mafia Player wrote:

I wanted more discussion...

WHy are you trying to paint it as scummy? Your grasping for straws rn.

It was not obvious that camn would soon be lynched. And you didn't seem to have anything you wanted to discuss, nor anything more you wanted to hear, and only remained to comment with alarm when camn was brought back to L-1 again.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1162 (isolation #54) » Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:59 pm

SirCakez and SRMP during their episode today have looked like an equally guilty scumteam, what with their distancing from one another in hopes that SRMP can coast off of it and survive tomorrow. I'll be willing to lynch whichever of these two the town prefers to execute first. But this must not happen before tictac and UTL give their opinions, and anyone is given ample opportunity to say what's on their mind.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1165 (isolation #55) » Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Is there any particular reason why they can't be? (aside from "You're Cakez's scum partner")

a plain farmer · Post Post #1167 (isolation #56) » Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:10 pm

Them being scumpartners is only further demonstrated by this page.

SirCakez is defensive, yes, but with most everyone else he has grown exasperated after defending a point once or twice. Today he has seemed relentless.

Throughout this thread, the only one SRMP has quarreled with to any comparable degree as with SirCakez has been camn, and, early in D1, tictac.

They're arguing in circles, rehashing old points because they can't think of new ones, and generally bickering in order for us to see them bickering.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1174 (isolation #57) » Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:18 am

UNVOTE:

SirCakez would be the better lynch today. Cakez claimed VT and, if SRMP is town, there's a chance he could be something other than VT, so Cakez should be the first to go.

I'm not going to vote Cakez right now though. That would put him at L-1 and I don't want another quickhammer going through before tictac and UTL could even put up substantive posts. But my vote is on Cakez in spirit and intent.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1177 (isolation #58) » Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:40 am

In post 1162, a plain farmer wrote:SirCakez and SRMP during their episode today have looked like an equally guilty scumteam

You're extremely likely to be a team together, and, if not, your and his chances of being scum are not meaningfully different.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1189 (isolation #59) » Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:13 pm

@Performer: No objections here.

I'll put SirCakez at L-2 again.

VOTE: SirCakez

a plain farmer · Post Post #1203 (isolation #60) » Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:42 pm

Thx Cakez.

I wouldn't be offended if tictac gave some half-assed associatives (or reads or whatever) prior to his proper ones this weekend, since he's at least going to have to prodge before then anyway.

The obvious NK targets are CKD and Elyse, so they might want to give reads. If RC had said anything in the mason thread that'd be of use to us here then that would be welcome, too, should she deem it appropriate.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1231 (isolation #61) » Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:58 am

It would take some stunning revelations for tictac's post to make me not want to go through with the SirCakez lynch.

@tictac
Since 1) you're unlikely to be the NK tonight and 2) the town seems set upon lynching SirCakez, you may want to consider keeping what you're writing in reserve for D4 if you feel it will help scum more than town on N3.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1233 (isolation #62) » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:16 am

I'm making sure he's aware that it may potentially be a problem. Only tictac knows what he's writing right now (I hope), and if it's, for example, something that clears townies or suggests who might have PRs, then it might be best for it to wait. Or maybe it wont do those things and will give us something good to think about over N3. It's his call.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1235 (isolation #63) » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:24 am

What makes you think I was even saying he might have something to hard claim?

And what I think he's doing is what he says he is doing: combing the thread for associatives. Such analysis is often used to figure out who has a PR (of both the town and scum variety).

a plain farmer · Post Post #1237 (isolation #64) » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:33 am

What I had in mind was something like the camn-SRMP associative from posts 312 and 316 that would clear tictac if SRMP were scum.

a plain farmer · Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:56 pm

I'll look over some ISOs later, but for now my gut says (assuming 2 scum) SRMP is 75% chance of scum and UTL 50%. Everyone else is in the remaining 75%, which I wont rank right now.

If CKD saw someone visit Elyse he should say so, otherwise keep it to himself for now.

I'll also note the things I said about SRMP in 1050 are still relevant, since they didn't depend on Cakez being scum.

VOTE: SRMP

a plain farmer · Post Post #1257 (isolation #66) » Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:47 pm

CKD brings up a good point regarding his results, and if he's going to claim his Night 2 results today regardless, then he should probably just go ahead and reveal them.

CKD being blocked last night and not Night 2 is indeed weird, but I'm not sure it can be specifically assigned to tictac. I would have thought a scumteam with tictac on it would have had CKD blocked even before CKD came out against tictac. CKD is still the only one who has indicated in this thread that they have some kind of active ability in their role, so unless scum have sniffed out something, I'd have thought any scumteam in possession of a roleblock would have used it on him both nights.

In post 1253, Zulfy wrote:Karma what's the big thing about you being blocked? You were blocked. (Doubt there's an ascetic, Perf said the set-up was simple)

I'm not sure if ascetic is "simple", but it is normal. (Note that that page also lists a few other roles that could have caused the observed effect)

@CKD
I'll take a quick scan through tictac's ISO and let you know what I think.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1258 (isolation #67) » Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:24 pm

I see in tictac's ISO some posts that ping my gut as scum, some as town, and a lot that are null.

Scum-wise, he's had a tendency in this game to interpret others' posts in a more negative light than I feel one would were the posts encountered naturally. Also, as CKD pointed out, his non-vote on camn on D2 looks really sketchy next to the strength of his scumread on her.

On the town side, he seems to go out of his way to get to the truth of the matter. He could be doing it for the towncred, but I think some such posts (such as 598) didn't even need to be made were he scum.

So I can see him being scum, but he's not my top scumread.

Regarding SRMP, I could see how I might be misinterpreting as scummy what might actually be an unrefined playstyle. So it could be the case that tictac is scum and SRMP isn't. It could also be the case that they're both scum, since the post that leads me to think their scumhood is mutually exclusive is but one short post that might not have been well thought out.

But on the whole I'm scumreading SRMP more than tictac, so I'll keep my vote there.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1287 (isolation #68) » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:06 pm

In post 1279, curiouskarmadog wrote:Also I targetted Farmer n2 (he did not go anywhere).

For the record, it is correct that I didn't go anywhere N2.

In post 1263, tictac wrote:@farmer I'm thinking Rando is town.
-155 mistakes camn with another player. I don't think this can happen if he is scum with her. I think it's a real mistake because it's consistent with his play otherwise. (@Rando Who were you thinking of there?)
- I don't think the avatar-thing would have been so big a deal if they were both scum. camn would have waited for the night and then asked him to get one. As it was she was unnecessarily drawing heat from it.

These are good points. He's still been hugely scummy, and I still think he's scum, but I'm not as confident anymore.

@CKD:
We needn't hurry in deciding who we should lynch. If you're tonight's target, you'll be just as dead if we lynch right now as if we lynch at the deadline.

I feel I must point out your read on tictac isn't as strong as you make it out to be. His "slip" doesn't look alignment indicative.

As for him suddenly having you roleblocked due to the threat you pose, I'll reiterate that there was insufficient reason for him not to have roleblocked you the previous night, even if he didn't at the time see you as a threat, since no other player had given any indication of a blockable power role.

Here are some reasons that are more likely to explain you being blocked N3 but not N2:
1) The scum made a suboptimal decision.
2) The roleblocker forgot or was too inactive to submit a night action.
3) There is no roleblocker, and the failure of the investigation was due to some other role.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1307 (isolation #69) » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:31 pm

Nice save in 1302, Zulf. That could've been disastrous.

@UTL
I'd love to hear what you're thinking about all this. If it would be of help, I could go over some of the main events. For starters, CKD's investigation attempt on tictac failed last night.

@Everyone

I gathered all the vote counts and colored them in. Here they are in case you want to see:

Spoiler: Context-free VCs

I added VC 3.02.5 at halfway between 3.02 and 3.03 due to the unusually large gap between VCs there.

This wasn't as useful as I'd hoped it would be. Most of the thoughts that came to mind were WIFOMy. One thing that maybe isn't: I doubt both other scum were voting camn in VCs 2.05 and 2.06. This would mean that at least one scum would be in {Zulfy, tictac, Lokiben}. (Note that these two VCs were less than 4 hours apart, so they should probably only count as 1 VC).

If you look at the VC after that, then we can still assume there's at least one scum not on the wagon, which means at least one scum in {tictac, Lokiben, SRMP}.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1308 (isolation #70) » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:52 pm

In post 1307, a plain farmer wrote:This wasn't as useful as I'd hoped it would be. Most of the thoughts that came to mind were WIFOMy. One thing that maybe isn't: I doubt both other scum were voting camn in VCs 2.05 and 2.06. This would mean that at least one scum would be in {Zulfy, tictac, Lokiben}. (Note that these two VCs were less than 4 hours apart, so they should probably only count as 1 VC).

If you look at the VC after that, then we can still assume there's at least one scum not on the wagon, which means at least one scum in {tictac, Lokiben, SRMP}.

I'd better make sure the implications from this are clear. Assuming there is at least one scum not on camn's wagon in those VCs, one of the following must be true:

If only 1 scum was on camn's wagon:

There is 1 scum in {tictac, Lokiben}.
-or-
Both Zulfy and SRMP are scum.

If at one point neither scum were on camn's wagon:

There are two scum in {Zulfy, tictac, Lokiben, SRMP}.

This doesn't look good for tictac, but also there's a big chance of WIFOM here.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1309 (isolation #71) » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:00 pm

In post 1300, Zulfy wrote:
In post 1298, Zulfy wrote:Yep only reason

So what I really mean is "That is not at all it, I am voting you for your cumulative scummy actions

In post 1301, tictac wrote:heh.
And what actions are those?

@Zulfy
I'd also like to know what about tictac is most pinging your gut. You were "not really aware of the case on tictac" as recently as 1252, so what alerted you?

a plain farmer · Post Post #1327 (isolation #72) » Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:58 pm

I actually find CKD's AtE hard to swallow. He's not actually under that much pressure. He seems to be getting worked up at only having had a little bit of push-back from the town against his tictac case. The deadline is still a while off. I'd actually characterize this town as open-minded and thoughtful by the standards of most of the other games I've seen. All this is to say that, as a supposed veteran, CKD should probably have seen worse, and his reaction is disproportionate to what's actually happened.

And yes, it is scummy.

But I agree with him that the lurking, specifically UTL's lurking, is hurting town right now.

VOTE: UpTooLate

The good news: this lurking is reversible. We'd love to hear from you UTL!

a plain farmer · Post Post #1328 (isolation #73) » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:03 pm

@ Loki

In post 1321, Lokiben wrote:but I think I do trust curious more,
for another reason now.

Should I have known from the context what this other reason is?

Also, who is your #2 scumread?

a plain farmer · Post Post #1339 (isolation #74) » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:09 am

No. And CKD's the only one who has claimed a role that can be blocked. (As I understand it, masons' night-talk can't be blocked)

We can add 1-shot RB to the list of things that may have caused the D3 failure, but there's probably nothing actionable we can do (or should do) on this question today.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1342 (isolation #75) » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:23 am

Indeed it would.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1348 (isolation #76) » Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:07 pm

Hi pisskop. Thanks for coming in this late into a game. I don't know how you like to read, but let me know if I can be of help in getting you up to speed.

@ Loki

Thanks. Regarding Zulfy, I'm interested in how you reconcile your read on him with the following two points:

1) He hammered Camn at a time when it seemed (to me, at least) that her wagon would soon disband in favor of SirCakez.

2) He came into Day 3 with a vote on Elyse. The argument for townreading him here is that the scumteam probably knew RC and Elyse were masons based on their kill that night, so scum Zulfy wouldn't have voted someone the town would believe to be conftown.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1405 (isolation #77) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:21 pm

In post 1350, tictac wrote:
In post 1348, a plain farmer wrote:it seemed (to me, at least) that her wagon would soon disband in favor of SirCakez.

Why do ya think that?

Prior to Zulfy's hammer, SRMP had just abandoned ship and RC was waffling. Elyse hadn't expressed suspicion of camn and only said when voting her that it was because the claim was bad (and she had also recently something to the effect of not wanting to lynch camn). Of those remaining who weren't already on camn's wagon, only tictac had scumread camn, but he hadn't seemed interested in joining the camn wagon up to that point. Cakez's move to the camn wagon was sketchy and I expected heat to be brought on him for it.

@ pisskop
So your arguments against me are:
1) I was on the two VT lynch wagons, and off the scum one.
2) I was trying to look like a mason by aping Elyse's votes.

#1 is embarrassing to me, but anyone looking at the progression of my reads in relation to those wagons I think would conclude that my participation in them (or lack thereof) came about naturally.

#2 doesn't hold up at all. If I were a co-mason with Elyse and RC, I wouldn't have opposed them so openly on the camn lynch, and I wouldn't have looked into what seemed to be a possible cop claim by RC with post 902.

PEdit: What the hell?
VOTE: SRMP

a plain farmer · Post Post #1408 (isolation #78) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:30 pm

1) If you were part of some "light" motif, then surely you'd have had the word light in your post, right?
2) As much as I hate playing guess-the-setup, I agree with pisskop that a 3-person masonry seems unlikely.
3) If you were a mason, you'd have at least waited to see if I would've claimed mason after reading pisskop's post to CC.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1409 (isolation #79) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:32 pm

In post 1408, a plain farmer wrote:1) If you were part of some "light" motif, then surely you'd have had the word light in your post, right?

By this I mean "If you were part of a mason group planning to use a light motif".

a plain farmer · Post Post #1413 (isolation #80) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:42 pm

In post 1382, Some Random Mafia Player wrote:all references to the light motif (unless one of them fucked up, but I hope not)

You said "the light motif", not leit motif.

The only way you even got "lead" into your post to begin with was merely copying RC's sentence structure, which is an easy coincidence to have had.

And if the motif you were using was supposed to incorporate the word "lead", then why wasn't it in Elyse's post?

a plain farmer · Post Post #1416 (isolation #81) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:52 pm

In post 1414, Some Random Mafia Player wrote:they actually found "light motif" and went with that

when I typed in "light motif" I found leit mtoif, and went with that.

Explain to me in a little bit more detail what you mean by this.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1418 (isolation #82) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:59 pm

Alright, thanks, you're getting off this time. But a tip for the future: don't vote for your mason partners even in RVS.

VOTE: pisskop

a plain farmer · Post Post #1426 (isolation #83) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:59 pm

My scumread of UTL was and is independent of her lurking (but lurking did further compound it, and regardless of pisskop's present activity, he still has the same slot she did). For a refresher on why I scumread UTL, look back at 818.

On the issue of 3 masons + other PRs: this also bothers me a bit. While the town could have other power roles aside from the 3 masons, tracker is an investigative role, and masons fill the same niche as investigative roles. This plus CKD's behavior earlier today makes me much more wary of him.

Looking at what RC and Elyse said following CKD's claim of tracker in 783:

In post 790, Elyse wrote:Hammer him.

Cakez and Zulfy are next.

Elyse doesn't comment on the likelihood of there being a tracker, but the post in which CKD claimed does seem to have increased her bloodlust.

However, RC in his next major post switches his vote to camn. Here is as much as he had to say regarding the likelihood of a tracker:

In post 812, RadiantCowbells wrote:I don't want to lynch CKD today.

I want to lynch Camn.

IF he's town there's a tiny probability that he gets a useful result. We can lynch him later if he doesn't.

Right now both pisskop and CKD are looking like good votes.

a plain farmer · Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:10 pm

As I understood it, pisskop was referring to SRMP in the first line of 1447, and to me, unfortunately, in the second.

Also, pk, Mr. Performer prefers votes be cast with vote tags. It looks a lot easier to tabulate that way.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1476 (isolation #85) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:16 pm

C'mon, piss. You just have to put up with him a little longer before you NK him tonight.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1503 (isolation #86) » Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:39 am

Alright, boys, it's serious time. I've been accused of

dickriding

. Scurrilous though it may be, I had to see from myself. And I can see where pk is coming from. Let's rewind and watch where the dickriding unfolds:

192 - I dickride the mason, RC, on to tictac.
358 - We see the first instance of a recurring trend: my dickriding of Elyse onto SirCakez.
522 - It was so fun the first time that I dickride her again onto ika.
565 - And I just couldn't wait to dickride her SirCakez vote again once day 2 started.
1189 - I do it on SirCakez once again. Interestingly, Elyse herself doesn't seem to notice my shameless dickriding of her.

But wait. All but the last of these votes came prior to the first couple of masons having been exposed. So can we really still say that those first four votes were dickridden? And the fifth was the third time I'd allegedly dickrode a SirCakez vote. By then, my opinions on SirCakez dating back to D1 show that any supposed dickriding was also mired in the precedent of my reads.

On an unrelated note, SRMP, I see you don't have your...vote on anyone. Any idea who the scum are?

a plain farmer · Post Post #1507 (isolation #87) » Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:01 am

You seemed rather interested in the "mason" part before I pointed out its irrelevance. The goal posts are shifting.

But it doesn't matter anyway. I'm actually a trendsetter. A trailblazer. I voted SRMP on day 3, when no one had voted him since early D1. I was the only one to vote for your slot day 2. I'd have been the first to vote your slot again today if tictac hadn't ninja'd me on it.

By the way, I can't help but point out that your predecessor in that slot didn't have the best track record when it comes to forming her own opinions, casting her own votes, and filling her own niche.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1513 (isolation #88) » Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:15 am

As the town knows well (because, for the most part, we dickrode Elyse en masse on these votes), I was voting with Ely only incidentally. Check 358 and 494. Read SirCakez's D1 posts and tell me he wasn't snakebitten with scumminess.

PEdit: See? Tictac knows. Good man.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1518 (isolation #89) » Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:21 am

pisskop wrote:you still continue to avoid the question.

What question? Why I'm voting with Ely so much? What do you want me to say? "Because the girl in her avatar is cute?"

My previous post illustrates why I decided to vote with the same wagons she happened to be on.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1553 (isolation #90) » Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:25 pm

I'll unvote for now. This game is confusing me. Pisskop's entrance hasn't been particularly townie, but not particularly scummy either.

UNVOTE:

@ pisskop

I'd like your opinion on Zulfy's hammer of camn. I'll walk you through it in case you skimmed that part, but I also encourage you to read the posts:

In 958, after waffling a bit, RC changes his vote to camn. Then he convinces SirCakez to vote camn, putting her at L-1 (there had also been votes on her by CKD, SRMP, and UTL, which had been there for a while, but of those 3 only CKD was aggressively pushing camn). On the next page, SRMP unvotes. But then, 10 minutes later, Elyse votes camn, and 2 minutes after that Zulfy hammers.

Do you think the situation for camn there seemed dire enough for scum-Zulfy to hammer for the bus? Or is scum-Zulfy yolo-hammering for the town cred? Or, of course, is Zulfy town?

@ Zulfy

Who is your #2 scumread? And also, because I'm dying to know,

In post 1008, Zulfy wrote:VOTE: camn

Not good lynch

why'd you write "Not good lynch" here when you hammered camn?

a plain farmer · Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:04 pm

In post 1555, curiouskarmadog wrote:random question farmer.

you asked Zulfy for his second scum read (he is voting tictac, i get that). do you understand his case against his first read?

I thought I did, but looking back through his ISO now I'm not sure I do.

The main reason for him scumreading tictac seems to be agreement with the case from D3 you quoted in 1254. My memory of events also mislead me to think that his "Grosssss" post was referring to tictac, when instead it was referring to you.

In reality, he seems to have originally scumread tictac for a combination of your case and undefined "cumulative scummy actions".

He unvoted tictac in 1320, but then put his vote back on him in 1335. The most evangelizing he's done for his wagon since has been mildly suggesting that Loki join him in 1344.

a plain farmer · Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:06 pm

Zulfy, while you're thinking about CKD's question, remember this:

In post 1553, a plain farmer wrote:Who is your #2 scumread?

All I really need is a name, although I can't promise I wont ask anything else once I get it.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1569 (isolation #93) » Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:43 am

It's a little worrying how the energy in the thread has died down after I slowed the momentum of the pisskop wagon. I understand we're still waiting on responses.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1577 (isolation #94) » Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:03 am

Camn had been on CKD before the first vote of her eventual lynch wagon had even been cast. Here's what happened:

At or before 684, CKD had begun to suspect that RC and Elyse were masons. This is presumably because RC had kept saying he was a "slave" to Elyse and was hinting at some kind of relationship between them. CKD quoted one such crumb and told RC to stop being obvious, and then asked Elyse if RC was town, presumably to confirm his theory. RC called him out on the rolefishing, which only caused CKD to be more loose-lipped, and he was run up to L-1 for it.

The above telling of the events seems to be what most people in this game agree on, but camn had this interpretation whereby CKD had crumbed investigative and was claiming masons with RC or something. It wasn't very coherent, and I'm not sure if she was just mistaken or if it was part of some scum ruse. But camn saw more scummyness in CKD's actions than anyone else.

BTW, I said camn's wagon was scummy because, except for RC, all members of the wagon at the time I read as scum or null-scum.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1579 (isolation #95) » Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:07 am

I don't think camn had reason to suspect she was getting roped. But CKD's outlook was very bleak for a while there, and it seemed a lynch on him was only avoided because it was still the first RL day of D2 and people wanted to talk more. In this light, CKD's vote on camn looks like he was trying to give her some towncred for when he went under.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1586 (isolation #96) » Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:30 am

I notice CKD wasn't on either the ika or Cakez lynch wagons. I know that's supposed to be a good thing, but he seems almost too accurate, and it's throttling my gut.

He also avoided hammer responsibilities D3 in a weird way (saying "I will hammer if needed, but it looks like UpTooLate already said he would" instead of "I'll hammer eventually" or something like that).

VOTE: CKD

a plain farmer · Post Post #1587 (isolation #97) » Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:30 am

That quote comes from 1193, btw.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1606 (isolation #98) » Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:20 pm

That's L-1. I'd like to have him hammered, but it's probably courteous to let tictac and Zulfy get their thoughts in, and have anything resolved we want resolved.

In post 1588, pisskop wrote:If I make the foreward assumption that the push on CKD was real (Im leaning that way), then we movea significant portion of the game out of the lynch pool.

Are you referring to the ones who voted CKD in vote count 2.02? If so, all of those slots except yours have already flipped.

In post 1598, Lokiben wrote:
In post 1569, a plain farmer wrote:It's a little worrying how the energy in the thread has died down after I slowed the momentum of the pisskop wagon. I understand we're still waiting on responses.

I don't understand. Do you think this is indicative of anything?

Nice to have you back. I hope things went well.

This could be indicative of pisskop being town, since one or both scums may have seen this as a good chance for a mislynch and thus fed their efforts into it a bit more. I wouldn't trust it to be strongly indicative, though.

Also, why is everyone putting so much emphasis on who hammers the vote? The significance of hammering is symbolic if anything.

Any scum can join any wagon and have it be relatively consequence free if it doesn't get hammered. So the hammer is indeed a bit more meaningful in that it is a point of no return.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1615 (isolation #99) » Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:39 am

CKD has been selling us a lot of BS in this game. There's the N1 investigation of Cakez, who had both claimed VT and would have been least likely to carry out the kill were he scum. There's his shifty N3-only roleblocking thing. There's his AtE. There's his tracker role being unlikely in a 3 mason setup.

a plain farmer · Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:41 am

In post 1609, tictac wrote:
In post 1350, tictac wrote:
In post 1348, a plain farmer wrote:it seemed (to me, at least) that her wagon would soon disband in favor of SirCakez.

Why do ya think that?

Did you answer this?

I did, but it was in the midst of SRMP coming out as the third mason:

In post 1405, a plain farmer wrote:Prior to Zulfy's hammer, SRMP had just abandoned ship and RC was waffling. Elyse hadn't expressed suspicion of camn and only said when voting her that it was because the claim was bad (and she had also recently something to the effect of not wanting to lynch camn). Of those remaining who weren't already on camn's wagon, only tictac had scumread camn, but he hadn't seemed interested in joining the camn wagon up to that point. Cakez's move to the camn wagon was sketchy and I expected heat to be brought on him for it.

a plain farmer · Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:58 am

I was very confused about this game, too, Zulfy. But CKD being scum explains so much. For example:

I was confused for a long time why RC had labelled CKD the "mafia role cop" when he originally called him out. I was thinking that it would have appeared that CKD had followed RC's "slave" crumbs to find that he was masons with Elyse, so it should be that, and not a role cop ability, that RC should've looked to to find that he was a mason.

But now we know that SRMP was also a mason, and that their crumb was the "light" thing. These crumbs already existing, RC's "slave" posts weren't necessarily crumbs at all, and were probably just him avoiding the NK by seemingly offloading his scumhunting on to someone else.

I wouldn't be surprised if what really happened was this: CKD is the mafia role cop, and he investigated RC night 1. But, based on interactions, he couldn't tell if Elyse or SRMP were RC's buddy. So that's why he asked Elyse what he did, and that's why RC went immediately for the "role cop" accusation. Note that the only other one in CKD's wagon to also think RC's "role cop" thing is significant was Elyse, so she probably saw it this way too.

a plain farmer · Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:54 am

CKD's quoting the posts that would have led him as a role cop with a "mason" result on RC to ask Elyse this, which he didn't quote:

In post 685, curiouskarmadog wrote:Elyse, quick question. is RC town?

CKD asks me why scum would follow those crumbs. Usually scum wouldn't. Town especially wouldn't, so it's not indicative of that either. But here's how it happens with scum:

1) CKD would prefer to know who to investigate tonight among RC's potential buddies. He doesn't want to out them but suspects it's Elyse and asks a quick question that will hopefully go unnoticed.
2) But RC notices it and calls him role cop. CKD thinks the jig is up and he's probably getting lynched. At this point, it's best to make sure his buddies know what the result of his investigation was last night, as well as who he thinks the other mason is, so he blurts them out explicitly only after he's accused.

If the case seems initially improbable as scum, it is especially improbable as town. However, the developments that point to this actually being probable for scum are that 1) We know now that there were 3 masons instead of two, and interactions between them would create such ambiguity as to warrant scum discreetly approaching the matter in the thread, and 2) RC and Elyse of course knew there were 3 masons at the time, and appeared to recognize what I'm now describing at the time.

And all this is merely icing on CKD's scum cake.

CKD has been selling us a lot of BS in this game. There's the N1 investigation of Cakez, who had both claimed VT and would have been least likely to carry out the kill were he scum. There's his shifty N3-only roleblocking thing. There's his AtE. There's his tracker role being unlikely in a 3 mason setup.

Who will share in the glory? We need two more.

a plain farmer · Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:31 pm

I'll believe you're not scum when I see it, CKD.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy your stay in this town.

a plain farmer · Sat Mar 05, 2016 7:03 am

Hi guys. Have we lynched someone already?

If the game's not over, then use the night to look back over the game with special emphasis on interactions between living players and camn/CKD. For instance, Loki's 333 pings me. He does something I might've tried as scum: making my primary scumread someone who probably wouldn't get lynched, then FoSing my partners.

a plain farmer · Sat Mar 05, 2016 7:29 am

In the event I die tonight and you're in LyLo tomorrow, I'll give some thoughts on those remaining. From town to scum, I'd rank them:

pisskop
tictac
Lokiben

But I'm not too confident about this.

I don't like pisskop's hammer, and his predecessor in that slot was scummy. But pisskop hasn't given me much reason to scumread him, and I doubt players as experienced as him and CKD would, as scumpartners, put themselves together on my wagon in D4. Don't overstate these things as townreads though. Pisskop's hammer today may be scummy, but I also don't like the way Zulfy got up to L-1 in the first place.

CKD said this weird thing about tictac being sure scum if SirCakez ended up being scum, which a scumpartner might've done to try and clear him by association when Cakez flipped town. But then CKD wagoned tictac immediately at the start of D4, so I dunno. But the way their mutual scumreads on each other fizzled out on D4 pings me.

Loki has been keeping a low profile and staying off the wagons CKD and camn were on, and there's the thing I mentioned about post 333. I was in the midst of looking over him as writing this but I wanted to make sure this got out before the mod scene.

a plain farmer · Sat Mar 05, 2016 7:38 am

In post 1219, curiouskarmadog wrote:tictac is my big read right now. not sure what to think of tictac not hammering scakes. IF scakes flips scum, tictac NEEDS to be lynch tomorrow. Please make this happen if I get offed tonight.

This is the CKD quote on tictac I mentioned.

a plain farmer · Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:18 am

I've got no explanation for it.

a plain farmer · Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:08 pm

OK, so what's the plan? Pk and tictac, were you guys holding back anything for the purpose of CCing? I'm a VT btw, in case that isn't blatantly obvious.

a plain farmer · Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:00 am

VOTE: No Lynch

a plain farmer · Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:32 pm

Alright, what do you guys think the most probable reason is for why there wasn't a kill the night before last?

a plain farmer · Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:39 pm

Thanks for your answers. Here's where I am: I think I'll be voting Loki today.

Whichever of you is scum, you did a damn good job. I went over each of your ISOs and interactions, and whenever I'd be just at the tipping point to be convinced one of you were scum, I'd see something that looked like it was coming from a town perspective and it would put me back in the middle.

The tiebreaker here is that Elyse, RC, pisskop, SirCakez, and Zulfy were reading Loki as scummier than tictac prior to their respective exits from the game (although Zulfy did waffle a bit towards tictac). I'm not sure I can ignore my own gut read from a few days prior

and

go against the general will of the departed townies.

So I'm not really interested in debating this. I wont vote in this post just in case there is some incredible thing I haven't caught, but I do expect to vote Loki in my next post.

a plain farmer · Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:52 am

Don't bother. I've trawled through this game myself 4 times over the last couple days. I've second-guessed myself too much already to the point where further analysis can't do any good anymore. Anything coming from either of your mouths at this point will just be too much WIFOM.

VOTE: Lokiben

a plain farmer · Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:00 pm

*hugs tictac*

Alright, need I say anything in my defense?

a plain farmer · Thu Mar 10, 2016 5:37 pm

I hear a tiger-rabbit wants a case on Loki. Sink your teeth into this one:

Exhibit A:

333

The first part of this post is a case against Elyse, his primary "scumread". Then there's a part where he defends UTL's lurking. Finally he calls out a possible "slip" by camn and FoSes CKD.

In the first part, Loki makes it look like he's pushing a primary scumread so that he can be seen to be doing something. In the third part, he scumreads his partners for the distancing, but not in a way that really draws heat on either.

Also of note is that the "slip" he points out would actually exonerate camn if you had flipped town, which he may have been preparing for since your wagon was tied for the largest at the time.

Exhibit B:

866

This one I admit may just be me finding it scummy because I now know he's scum. But at the time of this post, the elephant in the room was the furor over CKD's mason uncovering. Loki gives CKD a slap on the wrist for something CKD said back on Day 1, but then seems hesitant to give his opinion on the big topic of the day. He manages to get plenty of hedging into this post, saying "I don't think the case against ckd is really all that concrete" but then "If there's one post that ultimately changes my mind, it might be this one." (meaning "I don't scumread CKD now, but I'm just leaving this here as an excuse in case it becomes in my interests to do so later.")

Exhibit C:

1065 through 1075

This was at the beginning of Day 3. Note the sequence of events: Loki comes in and votes Elyse. Then Zulfy votes Elyse. Then CKD comes in and chastises Loki exclusively in 1070 and 1071, and only brings in Zulfy when he butts himself in. Then in 1075 he turns to everyone and declares them obvtown because the real scum would've known about the masons.

Here's what I think happened: CKD and Loki planned to open Day 3 like this, since the result ended up giving Loki a bunch of towncred without any overt buddying. The whole sequence between the two of them was scripted, but, despite Zulfy having been the more recent voter of Elyse when CKD posted, CKD initially only mentions Loki. Why? Because Zulfy wasn't in the script.

Exhibit D:

1696 and 1703

These are the two weird posts he made today. It could be because he's never been in 3p Lylo before (but then again, neither have I) but his posts here seem to come from an informed perspective.

In 1696, his reaction to my vote on him is to vote me. His prior posts (specifically, 1655, 1676, and 1694) suggest that he thought you were scum. So why then is his reaction to vote me instead of beseeching me to come to my senses and remove the vote?

1703 is the one where he indicated that it hadn't occurred to him that you were conftown. Again, it might be because of inexperience, but this mistake is certainly easier to make if you already know that both of the other two guys are town.

Exhibit E:

For what it's worth, the opinions of our peers shortly before they died:

Spoiler: RC (and, implicitly, Elyse as well)

Spoiler: pisskop

Spoiler: Zulfy

So there you have it. In addition to this, I'll note about Loki a pattern of low-visibility, especially on the vote counts. It could possibly be a playstyle thing, but if so it'd be a convenient playstyle to skirt by without attracting suspicion.

a plain farmer · Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:25 am

In post 1709, tictac wrote:@farmer Why no vote for CKD in 771, 1327 and 1418?

Voting CKD in 771 would've put him at L-1, and we were still on the first real-life day of D2, so I wanted to make sure there wasn't a quickhammer. In 1327, I was still actually townreading CKD, since the scumminess I pointed out there did not sufficiently override the townread I had had on him since shortly after 771. This is the reason for not voting him in 1418 as well.

If ya had a scumread on UTL from 818, why not push it before 1327?

From that point on Day 2, I was reading UTL and Cakez as scum more-or-less equally. I voted UTL instead of Cakez since I didn't want UTL to fly under the radar, but I didn't want to intervene too much because Cakez was also getting wagoned and I would've liked his lynch as well. On D3, my reread made me think of SRMP as scummier than UTL, so he supplanted her position in my scumreads.

In post 1710, tictac wrote:
That's a misrep.
1101 1121, 1122
RC and Elyse were scumreading ya both. I'd say Elyse was leaning towards you a bit more.

Fair enough.

a plain farmer · Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:54 pm

In post 1713, tictac wrote:@farmer Here's a theory about the no-kill, please poke holes in it:
You were widely townread and would have been a likely doc-target if there was a doc. If you are scum and think there might be a doc, it makes sense for you to no-kill to get conftowned by doc-save.

There is a risk in this strategy, but first:

"If you are scum

and think there might be a doc

,"

In order for this to have happened, I'd have had to think there might be a doc, and prior to the no-kill, I wouldn't have had any reason to think that there were.

But if I did, I'd have the choice of not killing, or killing and going immediately to a 3p Lylo. If I don't kill and successfully predict the doc to have protected me, then he'd tell people I'm town and I'd have 3p Lylo wrapped up. But if you or Loki were the doc, you might have chosen pisskop, who, despite being arguably less townread than I, was more experienced (and perhaps less malleable from the perspective of the scum). Then he'd be just as conftowned as I would've been, and I'd probably have to kill the doc that night.

If I do submit a kill, then the same thing that made me the likely doc target would also have given me a big advantage in Lylo, so I could've forgone the risk and ended up in the same situation on D6 that we're in right now, except the deathbed professions of my towniness by Zulfy and pisskop would've been more fresh in people's minds.

a plain farmer · Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:24 am

In post 1717, tictac wrote:
In post 1715, a plain farmer wrote:
In order for this to have happened, I'd have had to think there might be a doc, and prior to the no-kill, I wouldn't have had any reason to think that there were.

In post 1640, Performer wrote:“Step aside everyone, step aside everyone! I’m a doctor, this man is bleeding profusely, let me help him.” said a voice. It was too late.

I'm thinking you might have thought there was a doc.

I was interested in the possibility of there being a doc on Day 6, since it might've given us a conftown, and conventional wisdom holds that having a conftown in Mylo gives town the advantage. I assumed Performer's flavor text didn't have any gameplay implications, so I didn't factor that in.

Why would Loki no-kill as scum?

Three possibilities (although perhaps none of them are good): 1) He didn't submit a kill in time, 2) He couldn't decide who to kill, 3) he hoped to gain whatever "advantage" pisskop was referring to in 1680.

What is scum-loki like?

I know you have a lot on your plate already, but here's one of his more recent scum games: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65168

Anyway, I don't know how you handle big decisions, but I know I don't handle them well. I was wracked by meaningless loops of self-questioning last week, until I finally had to come to terms with the fact that some questions don't have good answers. Everyone is going to have done something that looks very town, and everyone is going to have done something that looks very scummy. If you, too, struggle with these things, and feel you've done enough reading and thinking, then consider stepping up to the precipice and jumping. If you don't struggle with these things, carry on reading and thinking.

a plain farmer · Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:15 am

You didn't, town has won!

GG

a plain farmer · Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:16 am

By the way, you're right in that if I were scum I probably would've waited a bit before voting, and that I'd be arguing for your lynch instead of Loki's.

a plain farmer · Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:36 am

The no-kill kinda threw me off as well. I was wondering if it had happened because the last scum wasn't around to submit an action, and I noticed that both pisskop and Loki had made posts on the site over that night, but you hadn't, so it almost made me suspicious of you.

So maybe it wasn't a bad idea on his part.

a plain farmer · Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:31 am

Thanks for modding, Performer. The revelation of a 3rd mason was a shocking twist.

I was starting to get worried near the end that I had gone too far into propaganda-mode and that tictac would think I was being a used-car salesman. But I was getting antsy.

I fell hard for camn in the first two days. Looking at the Mason PT it's astonishing how incriminating my associations with her looked.

a plain farmer · Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:40 am

In post 1749, SirCakez wrote:
This was not a good game for me.

Yeah, it was rough. But it was nice having you in the thread. And your squirms on D1 were entertaining.

a plain farmer · Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:31 pm

Nice job, pk, on replacing in and making your slot townier. I can't point to anything in particular, but something about your posts just made me gut read you as town.