Mini Normal 1929 - Game Over

[alban]

What did he do?

[alban]

Just read all the rules.
The voting history option appears helpful!

[alban]

VOTE: Vedith

[alban]

How is all this random talk relevant to the game?

[alban]

Carcalilly, you are moving around your votes a bit too much. Also, Vedith and Carcalilly, you are spamming a lot.

Awesomeusername, your exchange with Vedith and Mario in 33 and 73 - weird. You want logic in Vedith's fooling around post in the dawn phase?

I am innocent, why are you interested in Connect 4 and not in Mafia?

How is all this random talk relevant to the game?

What game related content do you think we should be talking about instead?

Have you played with any of the players and how do the play generally? We can start there.

Steel & Tchill, get in the game.

[alban]

Let's get this out of way. If you have any definitive experience with anyone, let's discuss that. 3 benefits:
1. The scum may not behave in that exact way if you point out their tells, but at least they will be on a backfoot to change their game style.
2. You!scum may not easily implicate easy town lynches by pointing out the town players' apparent scummy tells later on in the game by saying whatever bullshit comes to your mind at that time (this game, this post in the past game, etc. etc.). Say it now, or no one believes you.
3. It's the best way to make hay of the rvs. Otherwise nothing much will happen and a random wagon will start.

I remember playing with Io. She will give long winding explanations about game mechanics and why and who is scum. I believe (but not sure) that she is logical, terse and concise when town.

[alban]

I have played with LUV. But I can't yet comment on their style.
I think LUV is flakey as scum. Also, evasive.
I have played with Vedith, but no tell comes to mind.

[alban]

Usually getting right into the game and moving it forward looks townie to me but something about the way alban does it is just scummy

I will get used to your spamming and you get used to my scumminess.

[alban]

UNVOTE:

I remember playing with Io. She will give long winding explanations about game mechanics and why and who is scum. I believe (but not sure) that she is logical, terse and concise when town.

Well thank you for calling me logical, but I don't really know if I would fall myself concise, I will make large posts if I need to get a point across.
Also I think the game mechanic talk was unique to that game if I recall because people weren't quite understanding them.

Frankly, I'm not really sure what the point in going over how people typically play helps. Like for example, I try to keep consistent play across whatever alignment I am and I'm pretty sure most people do that as to avoid scum slipping every time they are scum due to their meta.
Plus, the rules forbid Trust Tells and going over people's meta as town vs scum seems to be encroaching on breaking that rule.
Reguardless I've only played a full game with Alban, and maybe LUV and I am Innocent but I don't remember those games. Alban I remember does this kind of thing in all games if not most that I've played with him where he wants to talk about people's behavior.

Possible. That was a newbie game.
Yes, coz I study animal behaviour and evolutionary biology

[alban]

Alban,Do you plan on making one vote and sticking with it when we get into the meat of the game?

Depends on my surety regarding the prior vote.
Usually, my RVS vote stays on until I am fairly certain about someone being a scum and then that vote stays till the deadline, regardless of the wagon.
I usually don't much care about the wagon or the need to lynch someone. My observation is that whenever I go by the majority's decision, it screws up myself as well as the game. I rather go by my own reads, whether right or wrong, and hope to convince others about the correctness of that vote.

[alban]

UNVOTE:

I remember playing with Io. She will give long winding explanations about game mechanics and why and who is scum. I believe (but not sure) that she is logical, terse and concise when town.

Well thank you for calling me logical, but I don't really know if I would fall myself concise, I will make large posts if I need to get a point across.
Also I think the game mechanic talk was unique to that game if I recall because people weren't quite understanding them.

Frankly, I'm not really sure what the point in going over how people typically play helps. Like for example, I try to keep consistent play across whatever alignment I am and I'm pretty sure most people do that as to avoid scum slipping every time they are scum due to their meta.
Plus, the rules forbid Trust Tells and going over people's meta as town vs scum seems to be encroaching on breaking that rule.
Reguardless I've only played a full game with Alban, and maybe LUV and I am Innocent but I don't remember those games. Alban I remember does this kind of thing in all games if not most that I've played with him where he wants to talk about people's behavior.

Town

Reasons?

[alban]

UNVOTE:

I remember playing with Io. She will give long winding explanations about game mechanics and why and who is scum. I believe (but not sure) that she is logical, terse and concise when town.

Well thank you for calling me logical, but I don't really know if I would fall myself concise, I will make large posts if I need to get a point across.
Also I think the game mechanic talk was unique to that game if I recall because people weren't quite understanding them.

Frankly, I'm not really sure what the point in going over how people typically play helps. Like for example, I try to keep consistent play across whatever alignment I am and I'm pretty sure most people do that as to avoid scum slipping every time they are scum due to their meta.
Plus, the rules forbid Trust Tells and going over people's meta as town vs scum seems to be encroaching on breaking that rule.
Reguardless I've only played a full game with Alban, and maybe LUV and I am Innocent but I don't remember those games. Alban I remember does this kind of thing in all games if not most that I've played with him where he wants to talk about people's behavior.

I get your point. At the same time, I believe that if nothing more, at least it takes the game fwd in the sense that people talk about their own or others' behaviours rather than talking about random stuff.

[alban]

You're asking a player if they will votepark which is like the weirdest and least impactful question ever. I have absolutely no actual good reads at the moment so you get a vote. Enjoy.

I'm pretty sure that question was asked to counter the fact that they pointed me out for CHANGING my vote too much

Can we avoid answering for others? It's better to have people answering on their own. You never know what slips out.

[alban]

Awesome, why are you hoping to be wrong?

[alban]

I don't lean anything on steel he's not done anything AI. He needs to do something different because what he's doing doesn't help him either way.

If you don't lean anything on him, why did you need to comment on people voting him?

[alban]

EBWOP

I don't lean anything on steel he's not done anything AI. He needs to do something different because what he's doing doesn't help him either way.

Agree.

If you don't lean anything on him, why did you need to comment on people voting him?

I will let him answer that. Once he posts, I wanna say something on this.

[alban]

I like this push. It's similar to what I was thinking earlier.

VOTE: I Am Innocent

Can you direct us to the post where you were thinking on these lines?

@Tchill:

I was wondering how long it would take people to start voting steel. Wouldn't scum try to blend in more though?

Like I kind of agree with you, but if he's town he shouldn't just no-vote. If he keeps doing nothing, it really looks like he just doesn't know how to pretend to be town. What I'm expecting is that he'll say "I wanted to see who was going to vote me because they must be scum jumping on an easy target," which is frankly a terrible way of catching scum, and also an easy way for scum to get some fake-scumreads. Hopefully I'm wrong, though. Do you lean town on him?

Again, want them to clarify before I say anything. But once they do, I would like to get back to this post. I am saying this about certain posts more as a reminder to myself. Sometimes with the onslaught of topics and offshoots, I tend to forget things. Also, I believe the initial days, however innocuous they may seem, are the most important. Scum feels the most confident and hence more reckless about their behaviour and slips. So, it's important to get back to these initial posts.

[alban]

Something about my behaviour as scum and town.
People who have played with me know this: I am a very proactive town, and a very laidback scum. Partial reason for this is coz I guess I am a transparent person irl, and my laidback game as a scum is to overcompensate the guilt and fear of getting caught. I try extra hard to not get in arguments, make excessive statements, or even try to take the game fwd.
As opposed to what Io and what a lot of other players say regarding maintaining a more even game, I have not done that coz I don't have and care for that sort of long-term vision for the game. I have more immediate concerns in a game as a town. And they are usually apparent in the way I wanna take charge and take the game fwd. I definitely don't have logical skills that help me see through, hence I rely a lot on my instinct, and they are usually not wrong. But then once the instinct tells something, I try to dissect that instinct and see if that stands the test of logic. And if it does, I go ahead with my suspicion in the form of a vote. There are certain games of me as a town which are exception to that. Where I begin as what I described, but then somewhere in the middle either I lose my interest, or I lose my centre and get confused. But the only way it works for me is if I proceed with my own reads and ways of playing the game rather than emulating someone else or going with the majority.

[alban]

As a rejoinder to the last statement, must say this: I wouldn't oppose the majority just for the heck of it. What I meant was, it makes no difference to me whether I am alone or with majority.

[alban]

The recent posts were scummy too?

[alban]

Alban's is mostly NAI but I would agree that self meta is done slightly more often by scum like maybe a 4:6 T:S usage of self meta based on anecdotal evidence.

That's an interesting observation. Why is scum (slightly) more invested in self-meta? Will they do that even in a game where a substantial number has played with them before? For example, I have played with at least 3 out of 10 players here.

[alban]

The game has stalled. Anyone has anything to say?
Post something. Anything.

[alban]

VOTE: carcalilly

I don't suspect them. It's late. Turning in. Will recollect and post reads tomorrow.

[alban]

You should replace out now, so that the replacement has a decent enough chance to catch up before the deadline.
Or you could stay and not replace out at all.

[alban]

Please give reasons along with your tr and srs. It makes absolutely zero sense and it is of no value to the game when players make random statements like I tr xyz or i sr abc.

[alban]

I have a scum read on Alban

Why?

[alban]

I actually can't be scum.
I'm a day 2 IC 3 shot self sensor.

Can you actually stop. Please give a genuine reads list

Town - never lynch

Vedith
Alban
Chilly
Carca

Most likely town - never lynch

Mario
Steel
Io
IaI

Lynch and win the game

WhyMafia
Scorpios
Awesome

Wow. So many why's! Reasons.

[alban]

Common man, no one believes your claim. Just play, please. We have spent more time on you than on anyone else after you claimed.

PS. True. Either the scums must be given hyperstrong roles to balance you out, or they are >3. Either of which will not fit in a normal set-up.

[alban]

..
Why_Mafia's case on alban seems fair. I still think alban's good outweighs his bad at the moment but I'd like to see him respond.

Would like to respond to what according to you is my good and bad. Elaborate, please.

[alban]

So fake claiming does not equal scum.
Especially when it's so obviously fake like that. It can only be a joke and there's no reason to even take it seriously.

Joke or test.

[alban]

I hope it's the latter coz that'll mean there's some potential in all that razzmatazz.

[alban]

..
Why_Mafia's case on alban seems fair. I still think alban's good outweighs his bad at the moment but I'd like to see him respond.

Would like to respond to what according to you is my good and bad. Elaborate, please.

Would like you to counter my scum case first

Not interested. I think you are one of those players who so badly wanna enter a game with a bang that that desperation results in tunnelling. Honestly, that post is a blob of fluff. You are seeing what you wanna see. Most of your points are NAI at best. How do I know that without even re-reading your post? Coz I am town, you silly.

[alban]

..
Why_Mafia's case on alban seems fair. I still think alban's good outweighs his bad at the moment but I'd like to see him respond.

Would like to respond to what according to you is my good and bad. Elaborate, please.

The good is a lot of gut, but I think's mostly that you seem to be processing the game trying to read people, and it feels to me like it's coming from a town mindset. You've also been generating discussion in a way that I like.

The bad is more an accumulation of little things. I don't like 158. For all your probing, you haven't really given many reads, which could be fence sitting. I sort of feel like you've been coasting a bit lately, just asking people for stuff without giving much. What it comes down to, I think, is that a lot of your posts are pro-town and helpful, but are the sort of thing that scum can do too. I'd like you to respond to all of Why_Mafia's case, though.

I don't like your tr reasons, but like your sr reasons. They kind of fit into why ppl generally sr me.
158 was a joke.
Reads will come in due time. I can't force myself to give out reads and neither can you. If you pressurise me, I will either ignore it or give incorrect reads, both of which are not helpful. So my suggestion for now is to let me be. Yes, I know it comes across as fence-sitting, but that's how it is. Why_Mafia is not getting a response out of me. For two reasons. I don't like the quality of their case on me. And my observation is that the posts I use as my defence are usually used as bait/misdirections by the scums. My silence could be scummy, but is useless for scums. The verbose me is very easy to implicate. This is just the way it is.
After writing this though, I think maybe there's no harm in giving out a reads list. Here goes. Word of caution: this is pretty impressionistic. I will fine tune or even do a complete overhaul once I re-read and form some solid opinions. Till then:
---
Vedith
Carcalilly
---
Steel
Scorpious
Tchill
Mario
---
Awesome
Io
Innocent
WhyMafia

[alban]

Don't be offended.
When I read Io's posts, I picturise a master manipulator who is taking the game slowly and steadily to her desired destination.
Why do i think so? I don't have solid reasons. Mere impressions.

[alban]

Carca, some defence will be welcome.
No hammering before Carca speaks.

[alban]

What a bunch of losers.
Why hammer over a weekend you morons?

Mod, replace me.

[alban]

Bye.

[alban]

Vedith, are you really L'd?
Wtf people.

[alban]

Yeah and 5 more people including my rv stayed on someone so obvious town. On my part, it was simply laziness. Plus I didn't visit the page over the weekend. So, didn't see the tally building up.

[alban]

V, final thoughts? Whom do we lynch tomorrow?

[alban]

Mod, don't replace me.

[alban]

@alban: Why are you sure he's town? And what are your thoughts on Carca?

There was a substantial overlap between his reads and mine.
His tone appeared the most natural.
His claim was obviously a joke.
Plus, a scum would confuse people, not clear them up, even as a joke. Even if they give tr on a few people, clearing 3 people at once, especially in the early D1 stage is less likely to be scum.
But no, I can't be sure. For the town's sake, let's hope I am wrong.

[alban]

I'm still convinced Alban is scum

Reasons

[alban]

Mulch, have you read D1? Or your reads are based off VCA?

[alban]

Oh, that kind of hedging - I remember him going after both slots, but it didn't really ping me at the time. I felt like he just had two scum reads, although Vedith was partially policy as well. I can definitely see how that's a problem.

@alban: Can you also give reasons for your townread on Carcalilly?

Does 'he' and 'him' in this sentence refer to me? Coz if it does, that's a blatant misrepresentation.
Get back to me if it refers to me, and I will clarify.

[alban]

Alban- explain to me why your ISO has a lack of scumhunting in it.

I'd also like you to explain more your almost ragequit. It's typically perceived as a town move but I've been seeing scum do it lately as well. What was going through your mind when you decided to leave and come back? Why were you prompted to make so much of a drastic decision?

Yes, I have sleepwalked much throughout the game. Which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who has played with me. Unfortunately, Io, Vedith and LUV are all out of the game, who could throw light on my playstyle.

I am not much of a player on D1 coz everything just seems random. But I have tried to change that. In fact, when the hammer was happening, I was reading the last 10 pages, and making a detailed cases on everyone. I can share it with everyone as a proof.

Anyway, so as I was saying, something happened, and I came on the last page where the idiots were voting for Vedith. Now, Vedith was probably the towniest player in the game. It was obvious he was fakeclaiming, but I don't think a scum would do that. To lynch such a towny player was the first reason for the rage.

The second reason was my RV was still on him, and maybe in the absence of that, Vedith wouldn't be lynched. I had voted for him out of spite in a previous game where he didn't support me as a fellow townie. And the game eventually went to the scum. And as I had mentioned in a previous post in this game, that my RVS usually stays until I find a suitable candidate to vote for D1. Which is what I was doing. I was most likely to vote for Awesome or Innocent. But the hammer happened during this. I thought I have 4 days, but the day ended prematurely.

[alban]

@Alban- I'm going to say right now I don't really think that "I sleepwalk through day 1" will cut is in terms of you having little motiviation to sort, because it sort of appears like you are TRYING to sort day 1 but just more floating while also trying to give the appearance that you aren't. Do you understand what I'm saying?


I understand your answer to the question regarding the ragequit, but I want to know why you were SO posesses to do it based on that. Do you usually get this angry in games?

"...appears like you are TRYING to sort...but just more floating..."

yeah, and that's what happens when you go against your playstyle. I must also mention that coasting through d1 costed me dearly as a town in my last game, which is why I decided to be more proactive in this game. It will take time to settle in. If you look carefully at d1, I was being quite proactive in the beginning, but then two things happened: Carcalilly held me to ransom regarding my self-meta and other points. Which was a shame really, coz I thought I am establishing my credentials and giving others a chance to examine my game more closely and carefully. The second thing that happened was vedith's claim which kinda uprooted any logical discussion that was happening, and instead took the game in a different direction. 4-5 pages were spent on discussing the validity of the claim, and it was so obvious to me that he fakeclaimed that I kinda lost interest.

I don't agree with Llama that Vedith was a good PL. PL are generally bad coz they are directed at town more often than not, and secondly, obviously Vedith had a plan as outlined by him by describing Carca's behaviour post the claim. I think lynching him was stupid, and anyone justifying that lynch is just high on ego not ready to accept that they made a mistake.

Yes, I am prone to outbursts, especially as a town. I have a very righteous attitude as a town, and that becomes a liability either when defending myself or defending my tr's coz my attitude becomes 'why the hell can't you see things for what they are' rather than understanding that only I know who I am or only I have access to my thoughts.

[alban]

VOTE: WhyMafia

[alban]

Alban I hear you loud and clear about your playstyle. Trust me, I've been there (i barely try day 1 either at least half the games). But my problem isn't really the fact you aren't trying but more the fact you seemed to try to appear like you were solving, but in fact you really weren't. Do you get what I'm saying?

Already answered.

[alban]

@Alban that's why there's something called UNVOTE
If you were so angry that Vedith was obvious town you should've unvoted and pushed for someone else's lynch. I don't buy you, not one bit. Sure, you were formulating cases against everyone, but you just needed one person that you believed to be scum. The fact that the voting was progressing that quickly should've alarmed you. And you hardly did anything early game to be warranted any form of town cred. And before I get called out for giving shade, I already explained his early game posts. His current posts are doing nothing to convince me otherwise. In hindsight, yes lynching him was a mistake. I'll admit that.

That's actually a really good point and something I didn't even consider when I was scumreading Alban before.

1. It was a weekend.
2. There were 4 more days to go till the deadline.
3. I was absent.
4. When I came online I went to pages 20-25 to see if I get a lead.
5. I was so sure that Vedith is a town that I didn't think he would be lynched.
6. I was the first one to vote. It was an RV.
7. You should be looking at people who interrogated Vedith but didn't vote for him. If he was indeed a sensor, that's the group who wold be keeping away.
8. I was Vedith's top townread.
9. Carca was onto me throughout D1. It could be perceived as svs, but read the exchange. It was obvious that they were trying to frame me.
10.
....................../´¯/)
....................,/¯../
.................../..../
............./´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
........../'/.../..../......./¨¯\
........('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
.........\.................'...../

[alban]

Interaction between WHyMafia and Mulch on page 37 reads fake.
There's super mild questioning, and subtle towncreds handed over to each other from a past game. WhyMafia handled the questions terribly imo. Everything was either a feeling or a belief or tone. There was nothing substantial to their tr-ing or sr-ing someone.

[alban]

If Alban doesn't flip scum I'll eat my imaginary hat

You have already eaten it once with Vedith. How many chances are you gonna get?

[alban]

Self meta is towny, not scummy.

Scum have a HARD time explaining to people through their perceived meta why they are not scum. That's just a fact.

Then why am I sread for my D1 self-meta?

[alban]

On the other hand I like your response lmao and your reasons for scumreading me are valid.

VOTE: Alban

And yeah, me likes Scorpius a bit more now
hmm
when in doubt, push alban!

Who was it you sheeped on D1, WhyMafia?
I am not asking you about D2 coz I know the answer.

[alban]

Steel, I can see the points Llama is making coming from town as well as experienced scum. It's natural to be skeptical of some of the IO stuff, and I think there's a decent chance Llama is just being idiotic. I don't understand the Alban stuff, he hasn't been trying to sort at all and his posts today are extremely scummy, AND he's voting Whymafia for a crappy reason (and who is obvious town).

How is he an obvtown?

[alban]

VOTE: Awesome

So, my vote on WhyMafia is crappy, but your vote on me, then on Llama, then on me again, and now on Awesome, is fantastic? You are voting everyone who disagrees with you or votes you.

[alban]

Nah don't worry, I'm convinced llama is town
@llama don't worry either, your case has been noted. At the current standing in the game, I think I would rather keep mulch alive. Obviously will re-evaluate every day phase. For now, I'm still shakily believing mulch to be town, as well as you.

On looking at Awesome's posts, they're scummy af. However, my gut is screaming town :-:
Like contradictions don't equate to scum (although they mostly do) and the way his thoughts are scrambled, I see a resemblance to my early days in mafia

Posts like these is why you are scummy.
You have no thoughts to offer.

[alban]

Just re-reading d1.

Alban, what was the purpose of 214?

Could you also explain to me why you go from not reading carcalilly as scum in 281,and promising reads,and not saying anything again until 281,then 390 where you are actually probing for reads and reasons.

It's not actually until 2 rl days later did you actually provide your reads.

Do you think a scum would gain any advantage to having extra time to get a feel for how others are reading the game?

I have already answered it before, but one last time.

I get tired of D1. In order to speed up things, and make it less random, I thought it helps being completely honest and transparent about your play style. An independent vouching for that self-assessment can come from players who have played with you before. There were 3 players I had played with before, who were present in the game at that time: Io, Vedith and LUV. In the absence of anything else, I thought it was a good move to take the game fwd. In the end, no one really talked about their own meta, and that direction wasn't taken.

Nothing much was happening in the game for me to base my reads on. Plus, I am super busy irl and didn't get around to the reads. By that time, Vedith had already claimed to be a sensor, and all hell broke loose. I kinda lost motivation.

[alban]

Again I can somewhat verify alban's description of his play as sleepwalking, in fact as scum he seems more active and involved than town.

Alban it might be better to stop putting all your effort in defending your d1 actions and speak to the future. What are your reads now and what do you see as the way to go forward? I take it you believe whymafia is pushing you in bad faith with your vote on him?

^
I mean to a certain extent, I understand not posting much D1. However, he has spent the whole day 2 just defending himself or OMGUS'ing. And I don't buy his explanation regarding Vedith

What a manipulative asshole. All you did from start of d2 till now is bitch about me with Mulch. Which is why I am talking about you point by point. And no, I am defending. It's called demolishing the strawmen you have created.

[alban]

*I am not defending.

[alban]

You know what, just stay away. You wanna vote for me, vote for me. Just don't fucking interact.

[alban]

Again I can somewhat verify alban's description of his play as sleepwalking, in fact as scum he seems more active and involved than town.

Alban it might be better to stop putting all your effort in defending your d1 actions and speak to the future. What are your reads now and what do you see as the way to go forward? I take it you believe whymafia is pushing you in bad faith with your vote on him?

Yeah, I am done with it too. I will get back wth my views.

[alban]

In between all these anger issues, is anyone interested in my thoughts from d1? The ones I was working on during vedith's lynch. They spam 3 pages (20-22). I don't wanna spend time typing and then be ignored.

[alban]

*span lol

[alban]

I thought you had it written down at the time and you could copy and paste it now. Why would it involve a lot of time typing?

Also maybe put it in a spoiler tag.

It's in excel nerd alert

[alban]

So this is what I was doing on the weekend eve. This is regarding posts on pages 20-22. I was busy tabulating everything and extracting some information for further reads. That's when the lynch was happening, and I was oblivious to it.

Player	Against	For	Pros	Cons
Awesome	Vedith for fakeclaiming as sensor, and doesn't like Tchill for supporting Vedith (496).	Carcalilly, Io, Steel. But doesn't give reasons for supporting. Why? Supports me but also supports WhyMafia's case on me. What exactly is good or bad is not mentioned (496). Likes me but also doesn't like me (510)	Has kept the vote on Vedith for about 75 posts (496,565 shifted the vote) even after Vedith declared to be Sensor	Lengthy posts. IIoA. (496). Likes me for really trivial reasons. Either that or doesn't know what to answer when questioned. Same with why he doesn't like me. Most of it are either NAI stuff or he doesn't have any reads but is posing out to have one (510).
Vedith				Voted Carca who was a town according to him. Means he fakeclaimed (580).
WhyMafia (LUV)		Awesome (499)
Steel	Vedith. Gives a logical reason (488)	Also logically counters his own post regarding Vedith. Not one, but two logical reasons. (522)	Logical reasoning for blaming Vedith. Easier to come up with emotional posts rather than logical posts (488). More logic. Like this fellow (522)
Io		Thinks Vedith is joking rather than fakeclaiming (502)
Scorpious	Doesn't like Vedith claiming Sensor so early. Why not? (491).
Tchill	Awesome, me or Carca (490).	Scorpious (483); Whymafia & Scorpious (486)	Illogical but not mafia like (490)	Why should you tr someone by default? (493)
Carcalilly	Me (throughout)	Vedith is joking (506)	So obviously tunnelled that doesn't sound scummy.	No logical reason for sr-ing me. Quite aggressive.
Mario		Thinks Vedith is joking rather than fakeclaiming (511)
Llama (Innocent)		Stern with Vedith (521)

I don't have much grasp of D2 coz I have been defending myself.

[alban]

What's the point of the chart?

I don't like how you constantly undermine my efforts.

Alban quick question have you read any of the Llama/ Mulch stuff? Who do u think comes out looking better?

Better? No. Both of you are coming out looking like morons who are so sold on the idea of your own reads that you don't want to accommodate an alternative thoughptocess, which points to both of you being egoists and idiots. He a manipulative one, and you an idiot with anger management issues.

[alban]

And, this despite the fact that bot of you are null-reading each other.

[alban]

..
Why_Mafia's case on alban seems fair. I still think alban's good outweighs his bad at the moment but I'd like to see him respond.

Would like to respond to what according to you is my good and bad. Elaborate, please.

The good is a lot of gut, but I think's mostly that you seem to be processing the game trying to read people, and it feels to me like it's coming from a town mindset. You've also been generating discussion in a way that I like.

The bad is more an accumulation of little things. I don't like 158. For all your probing, you haven't really given many reads, which could be fence sitting. I sort of feel like you've been coasting a bit lately, just asking people for stuff without giving much. What it comes down to, I think, is that a lot of your posts are pro-town and helpful, but are the sort of thing that scum can do too. I'd like you to respond to all of Why_Mafia's case, though.

I don't like your tr reasons, but like your sr reasons. They kind of fit into why ppl generally sr me.
158 was a joke.
Reads will come in due time. I can't force myself to give out reads and neither can you. If you pressurise me, I will either ignore it or give incorrect reads, both of which are not helpful. So my suggestion for now is to let me be. Yes, I know it comes across as fence-sitting, but that's how it is. Why_Mafia is not getting a response out of me. For two reasons. I don't like the quality of their case on me. And my observation is that the posts I use as my defence are usually used as bait/misdirections by the scums. My silence could be scummy, but is useless for scums. The verbose me is very easy to implicate. This is just the way it is.
After writing this though, I think maybe there's no harm in giving out a reads list. Here goes. Word of caution: this is pretty impressionistic. I will fine tune or even do a complete overhaul once I re-read and form some solid opinions. Till then:
---
Vedith
Carcalilly
---
Steel
Scorpious
Tchill
Mario
---
Awesome
Io
Innocent
WhyMafia

This goes from towniest (top) to scummiest (bottom).
So, no I have not been reading vedith as a scum. I have beenr eading him as the towniest.

[alban]

And yeah, I was reading Carcalilly as towniest too. It was unfathomable for me to think that such a tunnelled view on me could come from a scum.

[alban]

Some more shade? Maybe I should replace out. Too much hatred.

[alban]

Mod, replace me.

[alban]

Ok. I understand that you weren't criticising me.
But I don't want to be part of this game anymore. It's irritating and not at all enjoyable.

[alban]

Yeah
I've re-read Alban's ISO
Definitely getting cold feet. If you're reading this, sorry for the tunnel Alban, but I was 99% sure you were scum, and the OMGUS didn't help ;p
Re-read Awesome's ISO, I suppose I'll go on that if we don't find a suitable lynch

IMO
Steel and Llama are pretty likely town
Mulch likely as well, but I hesitate to put him in above bracket because there's a few things that bothered me. He shouldn't be lynched anytime soon though.
Everyone else goes here
Awesome

If this isn't scum, tell me what is?
The winds changed direction after I left, and so did whymafia's tune.

[alban]

Yes

[alban]

Mulch,
1. What makes you say Carca pocketed Io? Carca may have attempted to do so, but to say that Io got pocketed doesn't seem likely. Io is a clever player. Have you played with Io before? You think it's likely? You joined the game coz you thought Io's analytical ability was amazing. How likely is it for a player to be that and then get pocketed so easily? Io could be town, but your reason for justifying Io's stance on Carca is worrying, coz it seems like you want to defend your slot. It doesn't make any sense why otherwise you would keep bringing up the 'pocketing'.

2.

You can't win in a deathtunnel against me when I'm ACTUALLY TOWN. You can't win when I am scum and you definitely aren't winning when I actually have the valid points to discredit and I don't need to bullshit with bad reasoning like I did in Vedith in 203. It's LIBERATING to be fucking RIGHT in this situation

In your tirade with Llama, this seemed like one genuine post. Confidence of a townie. But everything else in that exchange seems a bit forced. I don't even know why you short-fused. If it's 1109-1110, I think you overreacted. Care to lament?

Wait. In1014, you mention the explanation behind that exchange. Points 2 and 3 are okay, but what's with 1? Why are you bothered to display the trueness of your anger? Now, that bothers me. Anyone with me on this?

Your point by point refutation on Llama's notes 1131 - I like. It's the first time I read you as town.

Do you not see a contradiction between your 1159 and 1160? If the situation is so dire as you make it out to be, how can you be fluid at such an important juncture?

Your reasons in 1162 for voting for me:
1. Scum are more likely to maintain their vote on 1 person throughout. Since Alban had his vote on Vedith throughout, he is likely to be scum.
2. Scum are more likely to have shallow reads. Since Alban has fakeable shallow reads, he is likely to be scum.
3. Alban doesn't have satisfactory reasons for his play on D1.

These show that you have not grasped the game completely. I am not trying to be patronising. I believe these are pretty trivial reasons and are nai.

Some more towny points for 1196.

I mean, I'm not really concerned about getting lynched. I think people calling me scum don't have enough to formulate a good case, but to anyone interested:
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=71612
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=71848

WhyMafia, why aren't you bothered about getting lynched? If you are a town, you should be. Plus, anyone who says they are not concerned are very concerned imo.

mentioning that you aren't concerned is scummy.

Exactly.


Llama,
How do you think Carcalilly died on N1? The whole point of 1158 is that we will enter MYLO/LYLO. Why would there be 2 NK on D2?

Awesome, while I was reading your 1185, I kept thinking this has to be a scum. The post is a classical example of IIoA. Till I came to what you wrote about me. It's a bang on description of my game. You have taken efforts to go through my past games? And extract this much info? I am impressed. At this point in the game, it would have been pretty easy to go after me, and I think a scum wouldn't try this hard to analyse people. I hate going back on my original reads, but I may have to reconsider how I read you. I hate going back coz original reads are the most unadulterated, but maybe this is how you play - a bit scummy.

About your question regarding WhyMafia, just read his post 1190after I said I am leaving (P-edit: which I see you already have). There was a complete turnaround. He has been doing that throughout the game. He is keeping both Mulch and Llama happy, who are active players, and who need to be on his side if he needs to survive. There's a possibility he could be town, but that's too slim.

Since a lot of discussion is centred around 2 or 3 scums. I think it's safe to assume that there are 3. 2s:9t is unbalanced and pro-townand could be balanced only through extra powerful scums. Carca was a mere goon, which makes the life aweful if there's only 1 more scum, coz they would be awfully powerful. In favour of balance and even the powers, it is more likely that there are 3 scums. Also, it's better to be prepared for a 3 scum scenario.

My reads: People I think better about since the last read are marked with +, and those who have maintained are 0s. No one has become worse.
Town: Mulch (+), Steel (+)
Null: Awesome (+), Llama (+), Scorpious (0), Mario (0)
Scum: WhyMafia (0)

I am least sure about my reads on Llama, Scorpious and Mario. Llama coz I am not sure how correctly I can read him, and maybe those townreading him can explain it to me; Scorp and Mario coz there's not much to go by but perfunctory appearances.

[alban]

1. My anger was genuine. I was gonna replace out. Mod messaged me asking me to stay. It's probably been difficult for them to find a replacement. I am staying only coz of that. Not coz someone backed off. I am not sure if mod will do that, but I would really really like them to confirm that they personally asked me to stay.

Mod, please confirm.

2. Supposing it's a tactic, the only player who didn't allow that to affect his judgement was Mulch, who said that replacing out is NAI. Think as you may, but the only player who comes off as townie from last 24 hours is Mulch. Just you may think that I am scum, I will think that whoever got swayed coz of my replacing out is either stupid or scummy. I mean it's so nai that only a newbie will fall for it. Or a scum will use that to malign me after I came back. The way WhyMafia is doing now. In which world does a scum come back from the threat of replacing out, I dunno.

3. I think it's a great tactic to use as a townie and I am gonna use it more frequently to confirm towns in my future games. Like Mulch here.

[alban]

VOTE: Alban

I dont like replacing/not replacing being used as a tactic. Also why are you staying now, because people backed off?

The push,and retraction from Whymaf seems fake also.. I would support that lynch to today.

1) I'm not unvoting you until you respond to EVERYTHING that I've asked you to that you refuse to give reasons for

2) This is shit and a subtle gladiation and it reeks of scum not wanting to take a side between two arguement

Scorpious's view on WhyMafia is valid. I don't think it's scummy.

[alban]

Thank you, Ircher.

[alban]

Okay, so I will not do it in future as a tactic. But this time it was genuine anyway.

[alban]

Mulch, to be town's greatest asset, you will need to provide a way fwd.
So, if you have a plan, let's focus on that. Whom do we lynch, where do we go from there if a mislynch, and the works.
Llama, same for you.

[alban]

Mulch is a bad lynch. Why mafia should be our lynch fur the day

[alban]

I don't understand on what basis are people tr-ing him. Can you put a concise case for not lynching him?
I have already mentioned my case on him.
1. Coasting and fence-sitting.
2. He can't explain how he associates me to Carcalilly. I am not expecting a logical answer here coz any logic could be circumvented by scum!me, but at least talk about it.
3. His opinions get swayed according to the popular opinion.

[alban]

He has been fence-sitting and coasting regarding everyone else except me.
Please go through his posts regarding anyone else in the game and you would see a pattern.
He is buddying with both Mulch and Llama who are currently as diametrically opposite as it could get. His opinions on both of them are safe. Please ask him his opinion about them.
Source for 3 is the change in his behaviour after I left the game momentarily. He did a u-turn. Not just that, he vehemently shaded me on my return. Why is he averse to more simplistic explanation that maybe someone asked me to stay? Maybe I stayed coz I regretted my decision (not true, but still why is that not a possibility?). The only possibility he comes up with is how my rage was fake and how I quit as a strategy. Now those are serious allegations, and nothing I do or say could prove otherwise, so honestly, it's pretty convenient. Also, in which world does a scum leave, gather sympathy that would immensely help its slot upon replacement, and then instead of allowing the replacement to take the game fwd, comes back himself and be prepared for all the backlash that follows? It's counterproductive to the whole set-up if you think of it like that.

The only reason why Mulch's slot cleared for me was coz he was the most rational at that time. When public opinion was for me during my 24 hours away, he was the only one who said quitting is NAI. Upon my return, when some of you were vocally against me, Mulch was the only one who supported me saying exactly what I outlined above. His thought process has been the most logical.

Why Mafia's on the other hand has been most convenient. He take a 180 deg turn and sympathises with me during my time away, but shades me heavily upon my return. So, what really changed? If my slot is scum, it's scum regardless of my apparent behaviour, since rage could be easily faked (as he was doing upon my reurn). If my slot is town, it's town regardless of my apparent (and silly) decision to come back.

[alban]

Also, Mario, you cannot just counter my points and say that's the reason WhyMafia is town.
If you have been reading him town independent of my read of him, you need to outline your reasons independent of my sr of him.

[alban]

Can some of you unvote? This is D1 all over again.
4 days left.
Logically put forth your reason for voting Scorpious.
Otherwise, this becomes way too easy for scum to navigate.

[alban]

VOTE: Scorpius

Lol, reasons?

And yet you wouldn't vote for them. You are being stubborn.

[alban]

I think Scorpious should save Llama. That way I will be confident about Llama.

[alban]

I think Scorpious should save Llama. That way I will be confident about Llama.

No.

Too late to discuss any of that. AUN is more lynch bait either way and can words good. If he gets cleared that is a huge win.

@Scorp - Tonight target AUN. Do NOT deviate from this under any circumstance. If you do something else and are town you risk basically costing us the game.

Llama, explain this to me. At the moment, there are equal, if not more, people reading AUN as town as you.
Plus, if you are indeed town, honestly your contribution to the game is much more than AUN.
Logically, you should be the save.

[alban]

Llama, explain this to me. At the moment, there are equal, if not more, people reading AUN as town as you.Plus, if you are indeed town, honestly your contribution to the game is much more than AUN.Logically, you should be the save.

I can defend myself. Plus if I am scum I know the best response to this plan already so I would rather put it on a player who might not figure it out. Even if it is not a large chance for AUN to mess it up, its more than zero.

Scorp is targeting AUN. There is no discussion about it. No lynch is hammered. I can keep myself alive if needed. My best skill is this game is not pushing lynches or catching scum, its stopping lynches I don't like.

You may know everything about yourself, but we don't. And although you may have an escape strategy as scum, scorp's results will confirm it.

If you are town, you being alive and a confirmed townie is more important than Scorp dying/living to tell what AUN is. If I were mafia, I would definitely go after you, and hence Scorp should save you.

[alban]

Coz?

[alban]

I am more and more certain that there are 3 scums and it's WhyMafia with Llama.

[alban]

What are you talking abt?
Vig is dead.

[alban]

Llama's vote is likely not counted as it's not in the prescribed format.

[alban]

Unvote from Scorp first.

[alban]

VT

[alban]

VOTE: WhyMafia

[alban]

UNVOTE:

Unfortuantely it looks like Scorpious is town.


VOTE: Alban

Unvote me. You are tanking the game.

[alban]

It's night here. There's nothing that I haven't already said.
Likely I will reach L.
I am claiming.
Watcher.
Watched Steel N1.
Watched Mario N2.
Both nights no results. I was informed I didn't see anyone target the player I chose. I am not sure if it means nobody visited them or I was blocked. Most likely that they were not visited.
I chose Steel on N1 coz I really liked his game on D1. I am kicking myself for not sticking with Steel on N2. But I thought given the circumstances, Mario would likely be killed on N2 coz he was more universally townread than Steel, and scums will not have use for Mario.

[alban]

??!!!
Speechless.
Lynch me and find out.
You are next.
Good night.

[alban]

There's at least one scum in WhyMafia and Mulch.
And I think there are 3 scums this game.

[alban]

Very busy. You will need to wait.

[alban]

You will have to wait for next 48 hours. Maybe more.

[alban]

Mulch, threats won't work. Go ahead with your vote. Don't tempt me to vote for myself the way Vedith did.
Llama, will try to find time. It's difficult today (8th) and tomorrow (9th). But I will try.

[alban]

Intent to hammer if he gets to L-1

In fact, I will make it easier for you.
VOTE: Alban
Go ahead.

[alban]

Links:

1. Game Thread
2. Mod PT
3. Mafia PT
4. Dead PT
5. Review Thread

Ircher, unable to open mod pt and review thread.