Mini Normal 1946 | Classic Hits | Town Victory!

[Toranaga]

mulch. hi.

this is hardcoreUFO. you are amrock. I know you're too good for the aids you're displaying in this. you woofing and you're getting lynched this gameday.

Wazzup man

I'm not mafia here. So, your wrong. I will do what I can to convice you and others that are suspecting me, this gameday. Let's start: what aids... if your talking about my theory disagreements, sorry to say that I carry them through all sites

hey bro lol

I have to say you're playing a fantastic scum game if you're scum and the championship guy was right, you have great tone as a wolf.

if you're a villager, I don't understand mulch of what you're doing here. to recap:

- you hardpush a soft PR claim very early into the game to hardclaim;

- you kept pushing it to give out specific details for no reason. 'loyal cop' is too fucking mental to be a false claim anyway, and it gets scum nowhere if he fucking claims cop early on. how long would havo last as scum claiming that?

- you then started pushing maria essentially for having the correct pro-town thoughts in that spot. I don't understand how you couldn't even see her;mine;tacos;havo perspective that pushing for the hardclaim wasn't optimal, that we'd have time to determine just how scummy or towny that slot is before pushing hard for a hardclaim.

- you were bold enough to townread skitter for her L-1 vote on Havo! and you were never analytical enough to just how hard scum that vote + 1h hanging there not unvoting + only unvoting when I removed the chance of capping was. yes you made comments to that regard, but you were never as suspicious about her as other people were. bro, you're amrock. you caught me and freddeh having a w;w interaction when everyone else cleared me for that. I could be wrong, but I think you're a very good villager. you were supposed to catch skitter ahead of everyone else, or at least push her harder for it.

- your hard pushes in the game (havo, maria, me) were all town. that's not a good look for you.

- when Havo was at L-1, it was noticeable you were not around and only showed up after the early mislynch could be no longer. I wonder if you'd lynch him there, and based off how you were posting to Havo, I think you would and you'd defend your play the next day.

[Toranaga]

also fair to notice: mulch's '20 points' post about me came after I was very strong scum reading both him and skitter. makes sense as scum to just discredit me entirely with some hardcrafting material on all my inconsistencies or whatever.

[Toranaga]

you kept pushing it to give out specific details for no reason. 'loyal cop' is too fucking mental to be a false claim anyway, and it gets scum nowhere if he fucking claims cop early on. how long would havo last as scum claiming that?

What do you mean? I'm pretty sure I unvoted when he hardclaimed, that's all that I needed.

you actually revoted him with HEM after the hardclaim because you wanted all the details. you also softed fruit vendor pretty hard on these posts while getting some heat, and either faked that was a conf town role, or didn't know it's actually NAI. I'm gonna say you were always aware that fruit vendor isn't necessarily a town role...

[Toranaga]

if mulch is scum, I bet his scum bro is one of chip butty and HEM.

[Toranaga]

I really like Skitter's recent posts. They came into the game and started scumreading people that hadn't voted them yet or were not voting them, which would mean that if they are scum they are taking the risk of them voting them for a bullshit read. It was daring and showed a lack of caring about how they are perceived. I think the fact they had the awareness to point out Tort scumreading Misere after previously calling them town showed they were really trying to analyze the gamestate (and I still need an explanation for that). Their aggresive and confident and not overly defesive to anyone except Thor which I can understand cause they're tunneling them conf-bias style based on one post. I could follow their reasoning on all of their points although not particularly in depth, and especially liked how they were scumreading the putting Havo into a team after the unvote (something I completely missed). I also like their tone.

I don't want to lynch Skitter today. I think there is a decent chance that wolves are jumping on town!thor confbiasing them, specifically MariaR who really bothered me by just making a post about catching up but still is just floating by letting their non-extremely serious vote on Skitter stand. I've found that people who leave votes on for extended periods of time have a higher chance of being wolf in general.

this seems like a relevant post

[Toranaga]

Because your scum,

What if I'm not scum? How confident are you that I'm scum? When I flip town, what are you going to say? What if, theoretically, I could claim a role that would confirm me as town? What would you say? (Not saying I do have one). So, what if I am lynched or by some other means are confirmed town, what's gonna be your reaction?

Cause guess what. I'm town.

I'm town.

ANd the fact you are tunneling me and not letting go over a bullshit reason I could understand, and try to convince you, or decide if your scum, but the fact you flat out said you aint unvoting until I flip makes me FORCED to vote you and hope to god your scum. I owe it to my win condition. You can be scum, or be town, but I'm town.

this here softening fruit vendor. highly suspicious post.

[Toranaga]

when Havo was at L-1, it was noticeable you were not around and only showed up after the early mislynch could be no longer. I wonder if you'd lynch him there, and based off how you were posting to Havo, I think you would and you'd defend your play the next day.

What you mean?

you were not around as Havo was L-1. I'm not scumreading you for it ldo, but the way you were talking about him, it looks like you'd just go ahead and hammer if you were?

you showed up after me and skitter unvoted and went 'this game is going fast, this is amazing!'

[Toranaga]

Mulch should be the lynch today.

What a thing to come back to. Why the fuck should I be a lynch?

Keep in mind I haven't read much.


Are you still trying to push me as scum for a theory disagreement?

You're scum.

longer deadlines benefit scum.

Town players don't say this shit.

Town players don't force a Hardclaim from a town Soft claimed PR 48 hours into Day 1.

My vote stays on you til you swing. Period.

VOTE: Havo
Outing yourself as a Loyal Town Cop (not just a Cop, with full prefix and modifiers), but refusing to tell us what's the specifics for your role? Ah.

If you want people out of this wagon, you should begin to explain why a Loyal Town Cop is a perfect fit with a Miller. If you even make the slightest sense, I'll reconsider.

VOTE: havo


Guess what, havo! I'm town and I said that.

[Toranaga]

^ these are in sequence, you're literally voting claimed cop d1 here and it's a OMGUS vote too

[Toranaga]

^ these are in sequence, you're literally voting claimed cop d1 here and it's a OMGUS vote too

He had claimed? I don't know. I remember what he said was pretty enraging... but I don't know why I would vote a claimed cop day 1. I thought I only pressed him until he claimed, that's what makes sense

he claimed and then you voted him anyway yes

[Toranaga]

hahaha tacos going hard on these perspective slips

[Toranaga]

I'm gonna have a pretty hard time coming up with a team that contains mulch and skitter. I -think-, interactions wise and everything, it could be thor :O. I need to work on that. I'm not scumreading thor at all fwiw.

[Toranaga]

I'm gonna have a pretty hard time coming up with a team that contains mulch and skitter. I -think-, interactions wise and everything, it could be thor :O. I need to work on that. I'm not scumreading thor at all fwiw.

Rethink it cause I'm not scum.

what do you think of HEM pretending to put skitter at L-1 and voting her for senseless reasons? a slot he claims to not have read at all. what do you think of the timing of his unvote, when it looked like you might just go ahead and vote skitter? what do you think of HEM saying he thinks he put skitter on L-1 accidentally but then not insta unvoting her?

[Toranaga]

Okay. Fuck. Let's do this. Flash Skitter so you can all shut the fuck up. VOTE: Skitter I'll read her later.

Oh no she's L-1 didn't see the votecount.

I kinda understand BBT now in not wanting to play anymore and just lynch the largest wagon.

UNVOTE:

I'm just gonna distance myself from the game. My strategy of choice will now be to ignore Toranaga until Day 5 and just lynch a probable scum in the pool of {BBT, Skitter, Chip Butty, Misere}. I'm not gonna come on board until BBT and Misere comes here. We have 7 days before deadline. No need to be rash.

HEM posts voting skitter, faking that he put her in L-1 (I was on myself and not on her anymore lol), and then waiting 10 minutes for the unvote when it was increasingly likely she could actually get capped.

[Toranaga]

I'm pretty sure he knew it wasn't L-1. so it could be reactions, or it could be just scum distancing.

[Toranaga]

ok good talk. be back in a bit

[Toranaga]

really having a pretty hard time with this game now.

I'm only lock clearing WM and tacos to a certain extent. I think chip is likely a villager. I don't think skitter would try influencing against a misère lynch yesterday wolfing with her. I also agree with scum skitter that misère's posts weren't really all that bad. I think BBT's vote on skitter on d1 that led to her being L-2 gives him town points.

Thor is reasonable and pushed skitter since she L-1'ed Havo, but he has also pushed and voted Maria and was never really strong about skitter anyway. he wasn't pushing for these things.

There are many pieces of this game that don't fit with mulch being scum wrt possible partners. I don't think either HEM or Chip would side so heavily in his endeavours of outing Havo as scum buddies. I think scum tends to distance themselves a bit more than that. Also, when HEM voted Havo, and Mulch followed, I just don't read that kind of thing as two scum.

it brings me to thor everytime. there are certain interactions, very thin stuff, that makes sense with them being scum together. Thor didn't start the day scum reading Mulch, which could totally be just because he is a better player than I am and can look past how Mulch played and what he pushed into an underlying villageryness that's too strong for him to be a wolf. but what if mulch is scum? there's one funny post that I keep in my head:

I really like Skitter's recent posts. They came into the game and started scumreading people that hadn't voted them yet or were not voting them, which would mean that if they are scum they are taking the risk of them voting them for a bullshit read. It was daring and showed a lack of caring about how they are perceived. I think the fact they had the awareness to point out Tort scumreading Misere after previously calling them town showed they were really trying to analyze the gamestate (and I still need an explanation for that). Their aggresive and confident and not overly defesive to anyone except Thor which I can understand cause they're tunneling them conf-bias style based on one post. I could follow their reasoning on all of their points although not particularly in depth, and especially liked how they were scumreading the putting Havo into a team after the unvote (something I completely missed). I also like their tone.

I don't want to lynch Skitter today. I think there is a decent chance that wolves are jumping on town!thor confbiasing them, specifically MariaR who really bothered me by just making a post about catching up but still is just floating by letting their non-extremely serious vote on Skitter stand. I've found that people who leave votes on for extended periods of time have a higher chance of being wolf in general.

that easy townread on thor. would scum say that about town? and how convenient that everyone who is a 'wolf' in this scenario would actually be town, while thor gets a pass for pushing skitter. how fitting.

[Toranaga]

if Mulch flips scum, I suggest lynching thor next. if Mulch flips town, I'd lynch HEM next. WM and tacos are probably town and IDK much about anyone else.

[Toranaga]

Who has ever seen a scum fruit vendor...

I looked into it, and there have been quite a few. think there's an alisae game recently with a scum loud fruit vendor who was redchecked and lynched d2. looking through posts in many threads no one assumes fruit vendor is a town role, so it's a little confusing why you would.

[Toranaga]

I could probably be convinced of voting HEM fwiw

[Toranaga]

it's definitely a meta-perspective role to have as scum, and probably doesn't work much for balancing because no one is supposed to town read a fruit vendor claim anymore.

but think of this setup with me mulch: 13 players, 3 scum, and 5 town with claims? I don't mean to solve that you have to be scum for balancing, but half the town having a claimable role while no scum has any of that seems objectively unbalanced. I understand the claims themselves are nothing clearing, but yours is the only one who can never be confirmed as serving any town purpose in the game. even WM could have been mechanically cleared by being checked (!).

[Toranaga]

I could probably be convinced of voting HEM fwiw

What about havingfitz

I wanna lynch someone with good scum equity with you, and I think HEM has that + following a pretty heavy scum agenda all game.

[Toranaga]

Okay please talk about what will happen if I'm lynched and I flip town—because I will. Also, let's make this last until deadline because I want Toranaga to stay with us as long as he can.

I can't be active right now. I'll be active maybe Thursday.

towny post... I think town would eventually lynch mulch... if you're town and mulch is scum, I think thor is scum. but who knows.

HEM, did you think skitter was at L-1 or were you reaction testing?

[Toranaga]

it's definitely a meta-perspective role to have as scum, and probably doesn't work much for balancing because no one is supposed to town read a fruit vendor claim anymore.

but think of this setup with me mulch: 13 players, 3 scum, and 5 town with claims? I don't mean to solve that you have to be scum for balancing, but half the town having a claimable role while no scum has any of that seems objectively unbalanced. I understand the claims themselves are nothing clearing, but yours is the only one who can never be confirmed as serving any town purpose in the game. even WM could have been mechanically cleared by being checked (!).

I mean in a way... the game is a little unbalanced against mafia because loyal cop, tracker and gunsmith are provable roles, miller is extremely awkward to fake as scum and fruit vendor is literally -whatever-. so if we do read into it, and figure one of those roles has to be a scum role for balancing, the game isn't really all that balanced now is it. IDK, maybe it was how it was played out and I'm done speculating on the mechanics just a thought I had.

[Toranaga]

Towns in MS have way too much power Tor. You will learn this

you're probably right and I'm prepared to be hard pocketed by you but you gotta push scum this time

[Toranaga]

LOUD scum fruit vendor though. it's a thing.

[Toranaga]

I probably can't accurately read HEM.

[Toranaga]

VC 1.12

---

Lynching

skitter30

(4): Fykus, MariaR, Thor665, Toranaga

Havo

(2): Misère, humaneatingmonkey

humaneatingmonkey

(1): BlueBloodedToffee

Sergtacos

(1): Mulch

Mulch

(1): Sergtacos

MariaR

(1): WhyMafia

Toranaga

(1): skitter30

BlueBloodedToffee

(1): Chip Butty

Not Voting

(1): Havo

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch

The day 1 deadline is in

: (expired on 2017-09-24 15:12:59)

Mod Notes

: Keep it fun.

VOTE: Skitter

BBT puts skitter on L-2. no reasoning, just wants a lynch to go through.

I oppose a skitter lynch

Shall we lynch you instead?

I think it's townie, especially when BBT is voting scum here and then casually offering WM to get lynched instead.

[Toranaga]

641

Man come on...the most obvious and shallow thoughts, reads that are defined and then supported instead of naturall created, and fawning over my every move with "oh WOW, Mulch is town!!!!" "This is the greatest!!!!"


Seriously? How do people think this is town

I actually agree this is a little scummy yeah. was skimming it just now...

[Toranaga]

I fucking hate that mod question too.

[Toranaga]

Meta me.

send me links I'll literally read whole games to determine wtf you are here

[Toranaga]

scum fruit vendor + scum roleblocker + goon

would work vs loyal cop, odd tracker even gunsmith miller

[Toranaga]

if I read into it, I lean scum -hard-. I don't really want to do that.

[Toranaga]

Who has ever seen a scum fruit vendor...

Even if fruit vendor is negative utility for scum as you say, it could have been included for balancing purposes. That's why nu roles are a thing. I think you must know that.

On the basis of role alone you are neutral. It's going to come down to vca associations tone etc.

If I were a scum fruit vendor and it was a negative role I woulden't have used it...

The other thing is that with three scum, town would be way OP if all the claimed roles are true, and scum has a goon and a nu fruit vendor. I know you just said town tends to be OP on MS but that seems too much. On reflection therefore, i think your role is at least leaning town after all.

Edwop punctuation added for clarity.

@Toranaga: i can't remember, has anyone reported being blocked?

no. but with 3 investigative roles I think a scum RBer makes sense. also to balance out the benefits of hardclaiming etc.

main point is: giving town 5 claimable roles is too much for a 13er.

[Toranaga]

scum fruit vendor + scum roleblocker + goon

would work vs loyal cop, odd tracker even gunsmith miller

And why would Mulch send fruit as scum if everyone is supposed to read it as scummy now, as you say?

And if this is your first game here, why do you suppose the relevant meta on that is the same as wherever else you play?

the meta -HERE-. I never heard of fruit vendor before this game. I have then read many many posts speaking about it once I realised mulch could be exactly that. there are neutral and scum fruit vendors, there's a loud scum fruit vendor in one of alisae's games, and many comments everywhere of people never townreading someone just for being fruit vendor.

mulch thought it'd clear him. just read his posts. he thought that was a role that was gonna be read villagery. maybe actually as town he never considered it was NAI. maybe as scum, he thought it was way better than not send.

[Toranaga]

@Toranaga: i agree 5 claimed roles is too many. Tell me again why you think you are confirmed as tracker?

I knew fykus didn't visit anyone n1 I may be a scum tracker from where you stand, but I'm confirmed tracker.

[Toranaga]

mulch, if you can, find me a 13er with 5 claimable villager roles

[Toranaga]

viewtopic.php?p=9158679#p9158679

Another

look at the mafia loud fruit vendor there

[Toranaga]

viewtopic.php?p=9158679#p9158679

Another

look at the mafia loud fruit vendor there

actually 4 town roles and 1 claimable scum role there that's exactly loud fruit vendor lol

villa:
ascetic
gunsmith
vig
2 shot tracker
6x vanilla

mafia:
loud fruit vendor
2x goon

very similar to this setup if you're scum mulch

[Toranaga]

that's ridiculously OP for town though wtf

[Toranaga]

so the games are incredibly townsided and mafia still wins a lot. I have no idea why.

also yeah I'm very suspicious of most of these setups. IDK why games need to be so mech heavy anyway. I'd play a vanilla 13er with seer and feel great about it.

[Toranaga]

@Toranaga: i agree 5 claimed roles is too many. Tell me again why you think you are confirmed as tracker?

I knew fykus didn't visit anyone n1 I may be a scum tracker from where you stand, but I'm confirmed tracker.

Okay. But scum tracker would work with two town invests and a town fruit vendor. The fruit vendor could throw off the scum tracker.

yup. just so we're clear, you're still scum reading me.

[Toranaga]

consider me dead town when night is called. unless scum has a roleblocker there's no way I survive the night.

[Toranaga]

chip consider me clear for this gameday only and work out the mechanics with this knowledge. I'm 100% dead town tonight. if I'm alive tomorrow you can be very suspicious of me again. but I got scum lynched. I've been defending town. town has been defending me. maria was villa reading me, so was havo, so was fykus. I pushed for the skitter lynch very hard last gameday, I LOCK CLEARED YOU WHILE WORKING OUT SHE WAS SCUM. you have perspective to do better than throw shade at me right now. it doesn't really matter, but why are you still considering me scum lol.

here is a strategy: lock clear me so hard that if I'm not NKed, I'm scum

[Toranaga]

I mean the tone in that game is very different but I can see he is quite capable of posting up a storm and faking villagery mindset of being ultra suspicious of people etc, so it doesn't really look good on him. + the game is kinda old, which might explain the tonal shift from buddying to just hardcore posting

RE: HEM.

[Toranaga]

Yeah i don't think you're a lynch for today. I'm finw with that but i think it would be easy for town to slide from seeing you as conf tracker to seeing you as conf town tracker, which would be easy to do since trackers are nearly always town. Town has to be careful not to make that midtake.

what the hell...

look, I'm confirmed tracker or, if scum, I'm either tracker or my team mate is tracker. but you know I'm tracker. don't lock clear me on that alone! you didn't last gameday! in fact, you almost got me lynched didn't you dear. no one in this game is lock clearing me on my tracker claim.

I'm clear because I hard defended town and I hard pushed scum ON TOP of my claim ON TOP of being the most towny player in the game by a mile. I didn't out the the loyal cop. I didn't lynch maria, in fact I mostly did townread maria apart from the beginning of the game, especially near the end and thought lynching her was shit. I push skitter d1 and was on her very pure looking wagon. I push skitter d2 and ASKED SOMEONE ELSE TO HAMMER HER and hammered her myself when no one else would. I dared mulch to vote skitter and get her lynched. and my 180 on skitter is probably the most transparent towny thing someone has done in this game, where I'm pushing you hard, you're tunneling the fuck out of me, and then you pinge me towny just enough that I review the game and 180 my skitter read.

[Toranaga]

who are you even clearing chip butty

is it the two remaining wolves or something

[Toranaga]

the flipped scum put havo on L-1 so your read is horrible. guess who was very suspicious of the havo push: flipped town. havo himself. me. you know, the villagers of the game.

[Toranaga]

backward ass reads

'being anti town is townie'
'being pro town is scummy'

no wonder the setups here are town sided, you really need it townsided for a fighting chance don't you.

[Toranaga]

yeah havo's fault that town players would hard align with scum and get the cop to hardclaim

[Toranaga]

it's damming if you know what you're doing...

[Toranaga]

Hey, on the plus side if we lynch a wolf today I become confirmed town tmrw

hm.

how would you not out yourself as the last scum being fruit vendor? the Night Kill is performed by one of the scum right? and theoretically scum can't send fruit and perform the kill on someone else at the same time? I want to make sure of this.

[Toranaga]

Hey, on the plus side if we lynch a wolf today I become confirmed town tmrw

hm.

how would you not out yourself as the last scum being fruit vendor? the Night Kill is performed by one of the scum right? and theoretically scum can't send fruit and perform the kill on someone else at the same time? I want to make sure of this.

if above is true, theoretically we could make a tradeoff with mulch, where he points to his hardest scum read, we lynch that scumread, and if it flips green he is lynched the next gameday. it feels like a decent compromise. I'm very hard scumreading mulch so I wouldn't personally push for this, but it's a thought.

[Toranaga]

@virtuoso: is the mafia night kill assigned to a player, or unassigned? Can the same player perform night actions on more than one player? (e.g. visiting someone to give fruit and killing someone else)

[Toranaga]

Then there is your tone, which is all over the place. And all the inconsistencies. And your obsession with how you are perceived. Really? You want me to clear you?

this game is too long. being inconsistent is towny.

and yes I'm obvtown.

[Toranaga]

Actually, I like the Maria wagon (though I wouldn't mind a Serg wagon either).

VOTE: MariaR

this is scummy

[Toranaga]

I'll lynch whoever Toranaga tells me to lynch except my town reads minus Thor. And I'll lynch especially between Misere and BBT replacements.

yeah but I'm telling you to lynch mulch. not sure we'll get enough people for that...

[Toranaga]

Hey there. I'm going to read up now and I'd appreciate it if someone could get me up to speed. (Claims, important game events including what led to the D1 mislynch, how you got the scum lynch D2, etc.) I replaced in blind and I didn't do much reading overnight, just a cursory quick glance at an iso or two. Anything you give helps.

Pretty much all our PRs claimed by mid Day 2.
Day 1 wagon resulted from people turning away from the claimed cop to then lynch a semi-lurk slot with opportunistic votes.
Day 2 wagon resulted from a number of claims again, I thought it was led by me, but apparently I'm being told it was led by Toranaga, which is fine as I think he's town anyways.

Toranaga is a claimed Odd Night Tracker
WhyMafia is a claimed Miller
Mulch is a claimed fruit vendor (and has Why Mafia and humaneatingmonkey as confirming they have received fruits)

You are now caught up.

Toranaga has personally led everything that was good in this town so far

really you've been onto skitter quite a lot since d1. I just think you did that while also pushing town. and I feel you could have just hard cased skitter and get her lynched if you wanted to, but mostly people just independently got there regardless of you voting her or not. and I may be an idiot but how is mulch town? I know mulch;amrock from MU, he is good or at least not supposed to do the many awful things he did d1 wrt Havo. and considering how skitter was bold enough to put two town on L-1, I'm reading everything mulch does as bold openwolfing and not wrong town.

it's hard to parse out what is people being incredibly bad at the game or mafia. But I think mulch is mafia, and I can't let it go that he is running town to the ground playing against inexperienced players, and you. DUCY. you may be the only player that can convince me out of the tunnel right now

[Toranaga]

@thor: I play on Mafia Universe and 2+2's puzzles and other games. 2+2 games are very fast, usually 12h day 12h night. we used to have by far the most competent player field online, and the championships started on POG and with POG players MVPing those games. Now it's... not as good. the forums are pretty dead, but I still play there cause it's a lot more fun to me than elsewhere.

[Toranaga]

we have time tacos. two people just entered the game, HEM is right, let's play the whole two week out. I'm not interested in fast lynching anyone.

[Toranaga]

yeah I didn't lead the skitter lynch either. skitter was objectively scummy in actions and most people just independently got there.

I think mulch's 'theory' talk is bullshit. where did he get his theories from? he was going on about lynching people 2 days into d1, getting town to hardclaim PR or get lynched super early, and then don't look at who is voting Havo, write it off as just a theory disagreement because 'scum bus d1'? I'm not buying any of that.

also, look at his interactions with skitter and how he decided to vote her, while conditionally clearing her a page before because I'm not scum with her. is that townie? 'this game is going fast, this is incredible', is this something town says? how about being the first one to notice maria was MAJed, was that townie? 'how did no one notice this before' 30 minutes after MAJ, is this townie? how about d3 where he is perspective slipping all over the place... I mean what the hell is townie about mulch man? if you can, I'm goldfish, I don't remember anything. I need some light if I'm ever not voting mulch this gameday.

also, fruit vendor does nothing for town, it's not a cop or a tracker. if you're going over even odds at one of the claims being scum, mulch is necessarily the best lynch. I'm not saying that, you're saying that.

[Toranaga]

I know mulch;amrock from MU, he is good or at least not supposed to do the many awful things he did d1 wrt Hav

It's not awful, it just ended up awful. There's a difference

I don't know why a player like you needs to be told the basics, but here we go:

1 - very short days are pro-scum because it gives town less information to work with. while too much information can be detrimental and very long gamedays can also be pro-scum because of player disinterest, goldfish memory etc, you can't believe it's reasonable to lynch anyone as early as Havo was threatened to be lynched. that was two days into a 2 week long gameday, and most posters weren't even active enough for decisions like that to be made at all.

2 - Your push for a hardclaim makes no sense under those circumstances because town has time to determine whether Havo's play throughout the gameday is towny enough to let it go or scummy enough to force a hardclaim out of him, which isn't even something that has to be done d1 at all on the sheer likelihood he just eats the NK and his slot is cleared that way. While it is definitely exploitable to never lynch a claimed PR, no one has ever suggested that.

3 - Havo's soft PR claim was entirely reasonable and believable. he was put on L-1 and didn't want to hardclaim his way out of it. what would you do as a PR in that spot? would you not claim in any way? just let someone MAJ you early d1?

Your posts during that time are, quite frankly, bizzare:

[quote="In [url=viewtopic.php?p=9589537#p9589537]

I want Havo to fullclaim. That "it would be bad to lynch me" is scum 101 and I hate it. And it's coincidentally what I did as scum in Giga's game (for those that were with me then).

Havo, I am fully aware that you could be town who was thrust in this position. However, I think there is a decent chance of scum who was railroaded for the wrong reasons. I know I would HATE to be called that as town, beacuse it means the reasons are shit- which they are. But your tone is in defending is horrible and this claim is bullshit.[/quote]

If anyone wants to post reads fine, have at it, but don't accuse me of being scum just because I haven't posted a facking read list by hour 36.
And the claim's not bullshit.

That's not why I scumread you, and the claim is bullshit 101. You heavily softed power role, I want you to claim. Now.

VOTE: havo

Hardclaim or I will tunnel you for the rest of the day

People who think that scum can't be the first wagon are bad at this game

^this one is quite a bizarre misinterpretation of what Maria was saying and, guess what, she was 100% right.

VOTE: havo

Hardclaim or I will tunnel you for the rest of the day

And what will that accomplish??

The hardclaim or the tunnel?

Either?

The hardclaim: Force you to claim so if your scum you can't switch up your claim later or avoid getting counterclaimed.

The tunnel: Dually put pressure on you and ~hopefully~ lynch scum if need be

So you're completely fine with outing me? No matter what role I could be?

No, once you claim a very important power role and are not cced, most likely I will unvote

We lynch Havo with fire

I think this hits red

just a series of really bizarre posts forcing a hardclaim out of someone with incredibly thin reasons for the scumread itself. 'scummy defense' of a player you simply don't know and who wasn't reacting in a scummy way - except maybe overdefensive which could be explained by being a PR - and your level of confidence in that very bad read is offputting. You did a great job for the mafia team right there. if you did it for 'theoretical' reasons, well your theory is dumb shit dude.

Also, around these pages you're working a full on pro-scum agenda, strong townreading flipped scum (skitter) and strong scumreading flipped town (havo, maria).

You were also bold enough to cast shade on Havo's full claim, still push him, and vote him after he hardclaimed... I can't understand how you could be so dense:

Mulch should be the lynch today.

What a thing to come back to. Why the fuck should I be a lynch?

Keep in mind I haven't read much.


Are you still trying to push me as scum for a theory disagreement?

I think havos lying. The claim is convenient, his overreaction to the whole ordeal seems really disingenuious.

None of this matters though so ill hold off on my vote until tomorrow

Why dosent this matter, wtf?

^ and here is just dense from you. if Havo is a cop claim, he gets resolved at night. it's not hard to understand why and YOU KNOW WHY. you've been around.

VOTE: havo


Guess what, havo! I'm town and I said that.

This is how town loses games.

It's not my fault if your town. I was deciding but then you said you were vote parking on me and never reconsidering, let alone for a theory disagreement, effectively forcing me to vote you back and pray to God your scum and not some misguided horrible town with a bizzare claim.

a -theory disagreement-. you go full on powerwolfing in the village and then call it 'theory'. you're not gonna hide youself behind a 'theory' you claim to have. this is no theory, this is just wolf. still voting and trying to get a claimed cop lynched are we mulch. and this is 'theory' is it mulch.

You guys can do whatever you want, I'm effectively locked into voting him :/

literally LOCKED INTO VOTING a d1 SOD cop claim. this is so fucking unreasonable it hurts my head to even consider the possibility mulch is town here. this is openwolfing.

[Toranaga]

if you're town, vote mulch with me at the end of this gameday.

[Toranaga]

Mulch, can you provide examples of scum fruit vendors in MS? Right now, I'm basing all my defense on you at the fact that you would be easily sortable in LYLO because you would only be able to do one thing at a time (send fruit or kill). However, if there are examples in which scum fruit vendors are able to do both, I will reevaluate. So now you just have to give me links.

why are you asking the fruit vendor himself to provide examples of scum fruit vendor?

and in fact, he did that already (as an accident)

viewtopic.php?p=9158679#p9158679

Another

and we had a conversation about it too. good to know you're reading the thread HEM! makes me feel so good about your slot!

[Toranaga]

right now I'm thinking Mulch is a lock to flip red and all we need to do is lynch between Thor and HEM next for his scumbuddy. I think HEM is just a newbie player and thor is the actual scum buddy defending him. mulch flips red, lynch thor next imo.

[Toranaga]

The provlem with this theory is that i don't flip red. You have a different way at approaching the game than me. It's not my fault you think that's scummy. What I did was the right play, it just didn't work.

if you flip green, then I think HEM > misère are good lynches to go with next.

[Toranaga]

The provlem with this theory is that i don't flip red. You have a different way at approaching the game than me. It's not my fault you think that's scummy. What I did was the right play, it just didn't work.

if you flip green, then I think HEM > misère are good lynches to go with next.

If we lynch scum today, I become confirmed town tomorrow

unfortunately we don't even know this because the mod didn't answer my night actions question. and the problem is, if you're scum then hitting your scumbuddy this gameday is gonna be extremely hard, especially if it's someone you're pushing. I don't think it gives town anything to e.g. mislynch sergtacos here who is never wolfing with you after how d1 went down.

[Toranaga]

thor, I'm not saying you're highly likely scum. really, if Mulch flips town here you're probably lock clear? and then I'm an idiot clearing the wrong people and pushing the game in a bad direction. but I cannot understand anyone townreading mulch, and I think you've been interacting with Mulch in ways that make sense wolfing together. And tone wise, I do not think you're townie. I know you laughed at tone reading before, and I don't necessarily tone read you scum (although I can probably pull up some interesting posts), but a lot of your posts don't have the townie vibe HEM, sergtacos or WM have.

[Toranaga]

I don't think it gives town anything to e.g. mislynch sergtacos here

who is never wolfing with you after how d1 went down.

Why do you think this?
Their combined Havo push?

tacos is absolutely clear if mulch is scum

tacos: scum, mafia and wolf are the same thing. I'm trying to keep it readable for you guys but I use the expressions 'villager', 'wolf', 'wolfy', 'wolfing', 'villagery' and not townie and scummy or whatever.

thor I'll put up relevant posts that show they're unlikely paired as scum now.

[Toranaga]

VOTE: havo

Hardclaim or I will tunnel you for the rest of the day

Pinging me scum.

So you're completely fine with outing me? No matter what role I could be?

No, once you claim a very important power role and are not cced, most likely I will unvote

Because Mulch doesn't want to look bad for actually lynching an important role.

Lean scum- Monkey
Strong scum- Mulch and Chip

longer deadlines benefit scum.


And more importantly, I feel like getting Havo to L-1 will elicit a claim from him.

Funny how you want a hard claim from him and not from everyone else? we might as well say fuck it and announce all of our roles.

So far, Whymafia= Miller

Anyone else want to hardclaim?

See how stupid this is? Why are you so demanding for Havo's full claim when there's still 2 weeks ahead of us for D1! Like I would expect a hard claim in D3 and/or D4, maybe D2 depending on the situation but wth.

VOTE: Mulch

I don't think lynching Havo right now is terrible at all



Also, it's true. The longer the deadlines go on the more town tend to get frustrated.

It's also why shorter deadline sites like Mafia Universe have better functioning towns.

IDK if thats true or not but I think longer deadlines benefit town? We have more posts and time to analyze and we get a better conclusion out of it. You sound like you want to rush this lynch, which is a tactic a scum would do. Found scum!

"longer deadlines benefit scum."

why even write this? you know that's not necessarily true anyway and you know lynching anyone right now is terrible. why write such thing as if it was fact?

Because he's scum.

these interactions are not two scum together. also note how pure serg's tone is here.

[Toranaga]

thor, I spoke about a roleblocker once. and considering how pro-town the setups are, I'm not even considering the RBer right now. it's a non-factor in who gets lynched this gameday imo. and I don't think mulch's comment means anything wrt scum actually having a roleblocker. feels pretty WIFOM-y to read into anything like that.

on mulch quadruple down on Havo, IDK why I'd townread that. it's bold and aggressive for scum to play like that, sure. but he wasn't towny doing so, he just felt really insincere and still does trying to defend his position.

[Toranaga]

There were two people attacking Havo the same way - at least one has to be town, right?
So if we accept that at least one is town - how is it a leap to think both are?

I'm not sure what you mean but serg never attacked Havo. you seem to be under the impression that he did based off that and another post you made. I'm saying serg isn't scum with mulch because of the way he attacked mulch, has nothing to do with attacking Havo or whatever. serg attacked Havo pushers (chip butty, HEM, mulch and to a lower degree, skitter).

but on that argument: I find it a bit unlikely that Mulch and HEM are scum together the way they paired up to attack Havo. but I don't think one -has- to be town. I think HEM has a much higher town equity because of his towny tone, and because he is defending Mulch. if Mulch = town and HEM = scum, pushing Mulch this gameday is more sensible than defending him.

[Toranaga]

chip, HEM and mulch were very brazen about it. and yes I did say I find it unlikely they're scum together. that's also why if mulch flips scum, you look like a better lynch than HEM.

[Toranaga]

To clarify my position more fully - I feel your "oh mah gawd he's obv. scum!" case is basically a "look how terrible he did this" case.
Now, I agree that the way he handled the claim is not how I would handle it as town, and how I'd sort of like to see it done as scum - but as scum I'd never do it that way.

So, for your case to make sense either one of the following is true;

1. He is scum who knows what he did was terrible, and did it because he's scum - in which case you ought to be able to dig up a town game where he doesn't do that.
2. He is scum who does this because it's what he does as town and he thinks it's fine to do - in which case he may be scum, but your case wouldn't show it, and thus he might flip town.

Make sense as my thought?

I don't think digging up a town game where he doesn't do that is a sensible thing to ask, because a player getting L-1 two days into a two week long gameday and then softclaiming looks like an incredibly rare scenario. he may have pushed and defended claims in both alignments for different reasons. here the reasoning is scummy and incoherent with a player with his experience.

[Toranaga]

Your logic is based on what opinion o fhis experience?
Like - you think he's lying about what he believes is proper play to that degree?
I find that unlikely.
I don't do that as scum, do you?

you're limiting a read that spuns over +400 posts of his and almost a month of playing to a discussion on whether he is lying or not about what he considers proper play. and there's probably no way to know if he is lying or telling the truth about what he considers proper play because the Havo spot was very specific and unlikely to have come up in a different game.

what did Mulch do that was towny? getting 'upset' and death tunneling people hits hard into his scum meta. look at this posts here: viewtopic.php?t=72581&f=53&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go his d1 posts to llama are a carbon copy of how he tunneled maria and Havo, and llama is town there as well. so his 'tone' isn't towny, there's nothing towny about death tunneling me, maria and havo. his 20 points against me are all forced reads that I can't see town!mulch bothering himself with. if he were to case me as town, he'd cut to the chase. he tried finding anything that's mildly incriminating, and he did it after I was set on him and skitter being scum. he reacted exactly in the way I'd assume scum!mulch would, when skitter is also scum. he also didn't seem to take into account my tracker claim (unchallenged by fykus) and even got to the point of scumreading both of us (two claimed town PRs! lol!). his d2 interactions with skitter are scummy and feel like scum on scum interactions. his vote on her was bad, even you agree. his 'emotions' are all reading as fake to me, especially when he death tunneled havo. he was very bothered for no reason!

there are perspective slips, hard defense of scum and hard push of town throughout the whole game. he dishonestly used the fruit vendor claim to try and locktown himself, because he literally has to have no idea what fruit vendor is to assume it's a town role... and if he has no idea what it is, he'd google it and find out it doesn't actually indicate alignment. there's noticing maria was MAJed, and the way he did it was scummy. and even today he appears to be absolutely howling.

now I could be wrong, you could be right... but you're reducing what a case on mulch would look like to a -matter of opinion in theory- instead of looking at the bigger picture, and that's pretty scummy regardless of Mulch's alignment.

[Toranaga]

look at mulch overreacting to a single vote on him and death tunneling the town that dared to do it in that game. where did I see that before?

[Toranaga]

in fact reading that mulch scum game: you have absolutely no basis to townread mulch here thor. his tone is extremely similar and he is bold and aggressive as scum.

[Toranaga]

mulch's town game getting mislynched d1:

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=72708&user_select%5B%5D=29820

a calm, recollected, rational and very towny mulch, who had so many gutreads and change of opinions that I'm very surprised he actually ate a d1 mislynch here. contrast his posts there, wagoned and lynched d1, and how reasonable he was to all of it, with his scum game when a single vote would take mulch into an angry rant + death tunnel. and then compare those two to this one.

here is another d1 mislynch he ate, much more recent:

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=72397

very similar attitude to the july game! also terrible d1 lynches in both games IMO.

I skimmed others. I think the one I posted before is his only scum game I read. but when mulch is town, he is always pretty calm and seems to have a great time playing, even when wagoned. on his only other scumgame, he plays almost exactly like he did here. often pretty upset, overreacting to pushes, death tunneling players and being pretty loud and bold. as town mulch is actually trying to solve the game so his entire perspective is much different. and he doesn't even balance apparently... town mulch has gut reads, changes his opinion all the time, is very nuanced and doesn't really get overly wordy like he did here.

and you play with him, thor. why are you not scumreading him?

[Toranaga]

there thor, done my homework. yes the feeling is different. and yes, I played with town mulch a few times.

[Toranaga]

is my case good enough now?

[Toranaga]

These are a lot of words to be dead-ass wrong

less than your 20 points though

[Toranaga]

mulch is the lynch this gameday. if you're town, vote him with me. if he flips red, lynch thor and pop bottles.

[Toranaga]

You don't even want to see my response? Your that confident?

here is another scum game of yours

viewtopic.php?t=71796&f=53&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

[Toranaga]

I had to sit here and go through other games you played to put you on a meta read because you just openwolfing wasn't enough for folk. I don't think you can BECOME TOWNIE on d3 after 400 posts, and I didn't ask you to defend from anything. you can respond if you want and I'll read it.

[Toranaga]

Not only do none of those games have any type of similarity at all to the event that went on in this game, they are 4 months old. I've only been playing forum mafia for about 9 months. I've grown and improved, those games were at my middle development as a player time wise

you've improved to the point of being a worse town player? because I really liked how you played your town games, as I liked the town games you played on MU with me. and so you're saying that in these past months you developed a game that went from being sensible and nuanced, to a loud, aggressive, unreasonable and pro-scum town player who death tunnels town?

[Toranaga]

MariaR was town AF and you should all be ashamed.

hahaha

already like you

[Toranaga]

I might 180 pretty hard on chip butty again. I have the strong feeling BBT was town and I really enjoy when players come with a fresh perspective, so porkens' strong scumread and vote of chip made me really curious. I ISO'd him again and, you know what, I can see it lol.

[Toranaga]

Tor, I forgot to respond to you. But, I didn't "progress" to be more anti town, I learned that you should always push soft claims that are used to get out of a lynch in order to extract a hard claim so that the perpetrator takes responsibility for the claim

I don't even know what to say. I mean, there's no golden rule with these things. you just need to be reasonable. player softclaims at the beginning of the game, just let it go and see if he gets towny.

[Toranaga]

Are you sure that's not an OMGUS to his read to you? Porkens' "fresh perspective" isn't really that fleshed out and he hasn't really discussed his reads. You jumping at the nearest opportunity to 180 on just a little nudge is suspect.

you caught me! fishing for that chip butty mislynch, now is my chance

eh what can I say. I was strong scumreading chip butty until I started charting out interactions that don't make sense as scum together etc. I thought he was villagery on his tunnel of me even... so if anything, my read on him is softened by how hard he is scumreading me. but his drop of activity this gameday is very telling and everything he posts is still ridiculous.

[Toranaga]

where did I touch you?

[Toranaga]

I am not lynching porkens

[Toranaga]

Why are you not lynching BBT/Porkens? Because of those two posts? *insert shit emojis here*

BBT wagoned skitter and was townie while doing so. townie posting all game. both subs have towny posting too. no reason whatsoever to lynch that slot.

[Toranaga]

Seriously, anything further in that vein will result in a complaint to the admins.

you're fucking gross dude.

[Toranaga]

I have to say misère was a little scummy and now fitz is a little scummy too

it doesn't help

[Toranaga]

but muh mulch scumread

[Toranaga]

Why are you still voting Porkens over the lie if they retracted it and said they made a mistake? Do you think they would be more likely to make this mistake as scum because they have an opportunistic mindset, or what's the deal?

feels like a bad reason to push someone when they made one post after voting porkens lol

[Toranaga]

Why are you still voting Porkens over the lie if they retracted it and said they made a mistake? Do you think they would be more likely to make this mistake as scum because they have an opportunistic mindset, or what's the deal?

feels like a bad reason to push someone when they made one post after voting porkens lol

Why? One post is enough...

Tor I'm like 99% sure that literally every single thing I say is going to be "bad" from your PoV. Once you've decided that someone is scum, you start imagining their posts as "could they say this as scum" rather than "could they say this as town." I've been there.

I'm trying not to tunnel! that was a forced push though. I know how annoying it is so I'm not gonna repeat that you're my top scumread every single post. I'm not chip butty. it's just... why would you push the guy for not immediately unvoting porkens? it's not scummy is it? why would you care then? it's not like porkens is at L-1...

[Toranaga]

01. Toranaga- Not lynching today
03. WhyMafia- Not lynching today
05. Porky- Most likely not lynching today, although I want their reasons for scumreading me

@Porky

07. Thor665- Not lynching today
09. Chip Butty- Most likely not lynching today
10. humaneatingmonkey- Most likely not lynching today
11. havingfitz Misère----> Good lynch target
12. Sergtacos (replaces Creative)----> Good lynch target

13. Mulch--- Not lynching today, especially as if scum get lynched I become an inno child and scum are forced to nightkill me at some point.

we do not know if bolded is true because the mod never confirmed the mechanics that make it true.

[Toranaga]

why would you push the guy for not immediately unvoting porkens? it's not scummy is it? why would you care then? it's not like porkens is at L-1..

Yes it is scummy lmao to have reasoning to vote someone that is proven invalid and yet you still vote

you're blowing that way out of proportion. you scumhunt better than this as town yes?

[Toranaga]

why would you push the guy for not immediately unvoting porkens? it's not scummy is it? why would you care then? it's not like porkens is at L-1..

Yes it is scummy lmao to have reasoning to vote someone that is proven invalid and yet you still vote

you're blowing that way out of proportion. you scumhunt better than this as town yes?

How am I blowing it out of porportion. I'm not even voting him. It wasn't even a major point. It was something small that I wanted to investigate. Stop being confirmation biased

the only thing that's AI here is you pushing a guy for a single post in which he didn't immediately unvoted someone else. you're blowing it out of proportion by scumreading something that's so blatantly NAI.

[Toranaga]

Porkens: I don't think mulch is town. I think his play here is quite similar to his scum game and not at all like the town games I read from him. there's a huge disparity in how he approaches the game. as town, mulch is nuanced and unsure. he has many gut reads and doesn't get too verbose with them. as scum, he is aggressive and verbose. that's his scum game.

I read tacos as townie. if tacos is scum, he was probably bussing partners reading into the Havo hardclaim push. I like his tone and I generally like his thoughts.

IDK how to read chip. everything he writes is terrible, but then he and skitter were hard pushing each other, so maybe that's a good sign.

Porkens, I think you're town. this game is draining me. if you say chip and fitz are more likely scum than mulch... sure. just have my vote. I'm tired of reading anyway and I don't necessarily trust my reads all that much.

[Toranaga]

I'd still view him tacos as townie, thor. let me pull out stuff from his iso and comment:

I buy that whoever claimed miller is a miller

Why?

He questions Mulch AND Tor, unlike monkey.

Strong town: none
lean town: Robbnva
Null: None
lean scum: Monkey, whymafia, mulch, tor
Strong scum:

So far.

so starting with this, just from a 'scum is more self aware than that' perspective. scum!sergtacos is scumreading 4 town players and town reading his scum partner? because if he is scum, it's not with mulch or monkey, right?

Skitter
#111
"@HEM: Do you think WM is scum? Or are you pushing a policy lynch on him? Similarly, do you actually want to lynch him today?"
Not overwhelmingly. It's a policy lynch, technically. I want him out so we don't have to deal with the slot later, and then analyze based on what happened to the slot later. I think it's because scum would advocate for his survival to the point of LYLO, where it would be too late.

This tone and your statement on Whymafia sounds like whymafia is actually a miller and you're scum. You're back and forth on my reads. I can understand why we should policy lynch him however I do get a sense that whymafia is town because his interaction from all this and this post. This post is giving me scummy vibes. It feels like to me YOU know which is why I won't be surprised if whymafia flips miller so you would get "Credit." that won't work on me.

towny push here, no?

longer deadlines benefit scum.


And more importantly, I feel like getting Havo to L-1 will elicit a claim from him.

Funny how you want a hard claim from him and not from everyone else? we might as well say fuck it and announce all of our roles.

So far, Whymafia= Miller

Anyone else want to hardclaim?

See how stupid this is? Why are you so demanding for Havo's full claim when there's still 2 weeks ahead of us for D1! Like I would expect a hard claim in D3 and/or D4, maybe D2 depending on the situation but wth.

VOTE: Mulch

"longer deadlines benefit scum."

why even write this? you know that's not necessarily true anyway and you know lynching anyone right now is terrible. why write such thing as if it was fact?

Because he's scum.

I really like those and I like the confidence too. it's weighed properly with what he is reading into, unlike mulch pushing havo+maria+me, for instance.

About the Havo soft: If he really is a PR then drawing massive attention to himself by obstinately refusing to provide reads and doing all that complaining was a terrible way to play it. Also the alleged soft was so obvious he might as well have just hardclaimed a big PR. I agree we need to see a fullclaim at this point.

My question is why does Mulch and Chip want a fullclaim from Havo? What if he has an important role? Like jesus, know how scummy that sounds for wanting a fullclaim out of havo and its only the D1, jesus fuck.

VOTE: Chip

It's simple. Havo said that lynching him is the worst thing town can do. That is, he is claiming the strongest PR. So he is already going to be a prime target for NK. So there is no greater risk to town if he actually specifies what he is claiming.

Atm he has made it clear he is seeking the protection from lynching that a claim usually affords, while dodging the risk of being cc-ed that comes with a specific claim.

Thus a specific claim has upside for town and no downside. Leaving things as they stand just opens up the possibility of letting scum.havo cruise. Downside for town with no upside.

Your argument is still not convincing. You hopped, demanded a full claim, parked your vote on Havo when he soft claim a PR. That is pinging me mafia big time. I wish i could vote you and mulch at the same time.

townie and sensible

Read list:

Strong town:
Lean town: Whymafia
Null: Havo
between null and lean scum: Skitter
Lean scum: Monkey
Strong scum: Mulch and Chip

Skitter is weird, i town read Robb however when Skitter replaced in, his posts been sounding scummy.

is a scum!tacos going to organically shift his read on scum!skitter? looks pretty good, no?

finished reading his d1 and it's all townie posting. IDK what's scummy about him. he pushed right leans, he wasn't on the maria wagon, he wasn't on the havo wagon. every flipped town disliked the havo wagon, and scum was on it. I mean, I don't see it. I like his D3 too, I like how he is pushing mulch. those posts on mulch perspective slipping are pretty good. IDK. maybe I'm idiot but I don't see it at all, I think it's bizarre that this is even a wagon.

[Toranaga]

I have no will to change your mind about that but I'm not sure lynching tacos is any good
@porkens

[Toranaga]

vote: chip butty

[Toranaga]

no,

[Toranaga]

are you lynching mulch if tacos flips town? I more or less can't be arsed anyway

[Toranaga]

are you lynching mulch if tacos flips town? I more or less can't be arsed anyway

Setting up a pre flip huh

I'm also dying tonight, am I not

[Toranaga]

right. I just want to move on to a game where I don't have to read chip butty anymore. so, fine, let's lynch tacos, why not. but if he flips town, then I think my reads have been good and you should at least follow the mulch one.

[Toranaga]

right. I just want to move on to a game where I don't have to read chip butty anymore. so, fine, let's lynch tacos, why not. but if he flips town, then I think my reads have been good and you should at least follow the mulch one.

My reads have been good too, what of it?
The question is what we can explain and discuss to combine good reads going forward.

Every discussion I have with you basically returns to you wanting to lynch everyone who pushed Havo - ignoring that the one flipped scum we have took pains not to be a big Havo pusher, and that's how we caught her.

Could one of them be scum? Sure.
But I *really* don't think it's Chip.
And Mulch, as a claimed PR, I'm good with letting sit around for a while.
Let's lynch in non claimed PRs today.

I don't really think it's chip either, but if mulch isn't then fuck me to hell it could be anyone. and my mulch scumread goes so way beyond the havo push, and I fucking explained already mate.

IDK. there's no one I'd commit with and be fine with it, so whatever.

[Toranaga]

I'd lynch misère;fitz ahead of butty, tacos and porkens fwiw

[Toranaga]

porkens I'd literally vote tacos just to be removed from the game. I'm not subbing out because no one deserves to play with chip.

[Toranaga]

vote: fitz

[Toranaga]

porkens is townie. if he is scum, he deserves to win. only scum deserves to win this dick of a game.

[Toranaga]

porkens I'd literally vote tacos just to be removed from the game. I'm not subbing out because no one deserves to play with chip.

LOL. Your hatred amuses me.

that's exactly how a troll feels.

stay away from my communities.

[Toranaga]

I'd go mulch > thor fwiw

if misere flips green

you do you idgaf

[Toranaga]

Like, Tor, you're screaming your head off about Mulch scum - and you're voting the slot he has been trying to lynch all Day.
It bewilders me.
I remember when Mafia was about communication.
This is meh.

where did I touch you?

Stop fantasising over me. Now you're just being creepy. I mean, first tou ask me how old i am, now this.

Seriously, anything further in that vein will result in a complaint to the admins.

^ this is what crossed the line for me. this chip dude has been nothing but a petulant pain in the ass all game, but calling me a creep who is fantasizing about him is too much. I'm not subbing out, hopefully we just lynch someone and I get the NK in the night. and yeah I'm just voting whoever. there. -throwing the game-.

[Toranaga]

Tor, I agree with you that he took "where did I touch you" out of context. However, I think it's just a misunderstanding... I can also see how he could think the connotation with that and the age question is weird. I think maybe you both should just calm down a bit.


(Also, tor, let's talk after the game)

nah man, the age question was always to determine alignment and he knows that cause I insta explained to him why I was wondering it. the touch thing was a joke, the guy is calling me -toranagger- all gameday, and I haven't said anything back to him. I'm behaving myself. I just want the gameday to end now and don't really care much for casing people, also cause I just don't know who is scum.

[Toranaga]

just don't answer then. why take the worst possible connotation to a goddamn age question

[Toranaga]

whatever tho, subject over etc.

[Toranaga]

vote: mulch

eh

[Toranaga]

fitz' ISO is townie

[Toranaga]

I like how thor is defending fitz here too...

IDK. sergtacos did spend a whole lot of time just tunneling on mulch didn't he.

[Toranaga]

thor, what can I say. I strong scumread mulch. to the point where lynching people who can't be scum with him feels poor. is tacos towny? eh, a little. I haven't seen scummy posts. I don't think him voting skitter after being called out by you means anything.

I probably agree with you on chip and skitter was especially pushy towards him, including d1 when it was both a little unnecessary and could really put chip in trouble. she also nuanced her read on chip in a way I don't really see much as scum.

I think misère had good towny posts, and then a terrible maria vote. I like fitz.

I think BBT gets a big pass just on being on that d1 skitter wagon and putting her at L-2. also that comment he made to WM, asking if we should lynch him instead, was townie IMO. I think pork is townie and has been flipping a bunch on reads, seems to be coming with a towny perspective to the game.

HEM is... weird. towny I guess, in many ways. his scum game has some tonal differences... he is very much buddying scum the one game I read. here he is brazen and never once was nice.

I think mulch is just scum this game. he is playing into his scum meta.

tacos... IDK. he is pushing the right things. I'll agree he hasn't been as towny as I once perceived him to be.

and then there's you, thor. you're not towny. you make good, logically sound NAI posts. I like that you're townreading fitz a lot here...

IDK. unless it's you and mulch, I'm having scum as a town read. cause neither you nor mulch is scum with tacos.

[Toranaga]

It's not my scum meta. I don't have a scum meta

ehhh

show me a recent town game where you flip on people the way you did here

after getting voted -once- and stuff like that

cause you literally self voted d1 and ate a mislynch and was totally cool about it as town

[Toranaga]

I have two scum games where you played exactly like you played here on the death tunnely, confident aggressive kind of way, and I think 4 town games where you did none of that. you have a scum meta and if you're scum here you need to fix that cause it's really easy to see it.

in before I'm wrong

[Toranaga]

Thor, the 'PR' logic is pretty shit actually. if 'there has to be scum' between the PR claims, which may or may not be the case, then mulch is scum because I'm the tracker and WM has played a perfect miller game + the sub is townie speaking about it. I know I'm not convincing you to vote mulch, as you're no longer convincing me to vote either porkens, fitz or tacos. I kinda think they're all mislynches at this point. I especially have NO REASON to ever vote porkens this gameday.

[Toranaga]

Sergtacos might not have had many townie moments but mulch had 0 townie moments himself.

[Toranaga]

I don't think Porkens is scum tho. I have a theory and I don't wanna mention it.

yeah. don't mention it.

[Toranaga]

is anyone interested in being convinced mulch is scum?

[Toranaga]

is anyone interested in being convinced mulch is scum?

Wrong

you promised to show me town games where you behave like you did here. help me out of the tunnel yo!

[Toranaga]

patience until someone else gets lynched before your meta spews you scum, mulch? come on now, just find me some links. not hard.

[Toranaga]

is anyone interested in being convinced mulch is scum?

Sure.

I'm not sure if your slot really needs it because if you're town mulch has exclusively pushed town the entire d1 and d2 but I'll work on specifics anyway.

[Toranaga]

wow

[Toranaga]

gg

lynch mulch if this thing flips green

[Toranaga]

woke up to another mislynch probably

[Toranaga]

gg

lynch mulch

if this thing flips green

no matter what Porkens flips

Fixed that to reflect your true thoughts

if you're green and mulch is red

I swear to god man

I'll say 'I told you so'

[Toranaga]

gg

lynch mulch

if this thing flips green

no matter what Porkens flips

Fixed that to reflect your true thoughts

if you're green and mulch is red

I swear to god man

I'll say 'I told you so'

And I'll say - I never called Mulch a clear town, and then...what, we'll just sit there and look at each other awkwardly for a moment?
What if he's green and I'm green, will that make it more or less awkward?

I won't be here postgame if he is green

[Toranaga]

I mean yeah maybe porkens was a jester

IDK

I definitely understand the mentality of just getting with the day already, there have been a lot of substitutions

don't see that slot scum with skitter so meh

[Toranaga]

it was meant as light goofy banter thor. it's not that I think you're green if mulch is anyway

[Toranaga]

it was meant as light goofy banter thor. it's not that I think you're green if mulch is anyway

if mulch is red

[Toranaga]

VOTE: Porkens

btw

that's scummy

[Toranaga]

why would you vote porkens here tacos

jfc

[Toranaga]

still lynch mulch

[Toranaga]

still lynch mulch

What's the case for mulch?

he is playing hard into his scum meta. death tunneling town players, bold and aggressive. he is NOT like that as town. town mulch has sensible reads, gut reads, changes his mind all the time on players. he is nuanced and intelligent. he wouldn't keep tunneling a hardclaimed loyal cop on d1 as town. he wouldn't make -20 points of scummyness- on me, which are mostly shit points tbh, as town. that's not how mulch operates as town because he is not as wordy and he cuts to the chase.

check mulch's town games here. he got mislynched d1 twice, even. check his scum games where he is very hard to get lynched because he is extra loud and aggressive. it's a simple, clear meta read. there's a discrepancy. I was hard scumreading him before I even got to read those games, but with them it's just very clear what his alignment is.

maybe I'm an idiot, who knows. but not lynching mulch this gameday looks like an atrocious waste and I bet porkens flips town too. I don't think 'let's lynch anyone including me' is a mindset scum has. that was spazzy townie behaviour IMO. in before I'm wrong but yeah.

if you can, reconsider mulch if porkens is town. and if mulch is scum, look into how thor is playing. IDK who else can be wolfing with mulch at this point.

[Toranaga]

there's a smart, but dangerous lynch progression that goes:

sergtacos - if serg is scum thor and mulch are hardcleared and then you find out which one of fritz and HEM is the partner; if serg is town, lynch mulch and thor in sequence

[Toranaga]

if I had to guess, it's either tacos and fritz, or mulch and thor.

[Toranaga]

mulch is fruit vendor, that's confirmed. but fruit vendor is NAI role. there's a recent game on MS with scum fruit vendor on a 13er set up. in july I think. so it's not unheard of.

[Toranaga]

and with your claim, there's a total of 5 claims in a 13er set up, which feels like an overkill of claims that can clear villagers. miller, even gunsmith, odd tracker, fruit vendor and loyal cop.

[Toranaga]

porkens didn't post since he got MAJed so hopefully that means he flips scum... and then I have no idea what I'm talking about and should just be ignored probably clears thor and a bunch of other people if so.

[Toranaga]

I suppose it's true that it should be the case, but I see mulch has a bunch of scum wins and he did tunnel villagers pretty hard. he just gets away with it. he tunneled nothing but town the entire game: havo, maria, myself. if fritz is also town, he pushed nothing but town the entire game and is pretty widely townread.

if you think I could be scum with mulch, check on d2 where I flip a bunch of reads, call skitter and mulch scum, and get into a pages long tdome with him that got the thread locked and I was daring him to vote skitter and he didn't. I don't think it's reasonable for me to play a distancing game with scum the way I did it, because I can't win lategame as scum at all. I'm a claimed odd night tracker. I can't bus both my partners and get away with it.

[Toranaga]

Is there a possible relationship between mulch and HEM? HEM has not been on any of the wagons in contrast to mulch.

Not sure if you missed this. Would like your opinion on the probability of this being significant if scum!mulch.

what makes this unlikely to be two scum players is how hard they aligned to push the Havo hardclaim and lynch. there's a particular moment in which Havo has already hardclaimed cop, and then HEM votes him anyway because he wants all the specifics of the claim, and mulch immediately votes Havo with HEM. I think the natural tendency is for scum to distance a bit more than those interactions. is it impossible? no, but I think it's pretty unlikely.

[Toranaga]

I agree, it's not like we can hardclear HEM for it. HEM is an interesting case... I think he is townie, at least tone wise and in some reads, but there are very weird posts he made this game and some interactions and leans that make him possibly scum with skitter, and then one of fritz and mulch would be the last partner.

ok here are few points with HEM:

- on d2 fykus softclaimed, saying something like 'lynch me next gameday, not this one, lynch misère this gameday'. skitter and HEM read into it that it was a softclaim ahead of everyone else and felt lynching him was bad. since I'm odd night tracker, and it was D2, I realised he could be an even night -something-. so I agreed with them and decided lynching fykus was pretty bad. However, HEM later stated that fykus was softclaiming vanilla, which made me feel he didn't understand the context of fykus' claim and pointed to something spewed in scum chat. I know, tinfoil. but there's other stuff.

- same d2 HEM puts skitter on L-2, saying he didn't even read the skitter slot (!!!), and then pretends like he thought he put skitter on L-1 actually, and eventually unvotes her. that felt a LOT like distancing and you should read those posts yourself.

[Toranaga]

HEM just wrote something about the porkens lynch that looks like he knows porkens is gonna flip town.

HEM has several posts of hard defending mulch throughout the entire game, often either genuinely or faking that he doesn't understand the fruit vendor claim isn't hardclearing mulch.

[Toranaga]

lol nice xpost.

[Toranaga]

why would not lynch a claimed VT? that makes no sense...

[Toranaga]

I find it very confusing that you would read into fykus' post as a VT softclaim when other people were independently reading the same posts as a softclaim PR. and for different reasons. me, skitter and chip butty were reading into the 'don't lynch me this gameday, lynch me next gameday' as the soft PR claim, while you were reading into the 'lynching me will give you the same result as the maria lynch', which is a much thinner case for a softclaim (maria flipped VT).

it's... weird.

[Toranaga]

WHAT

[Toranaga]

WHAT THE FUCK

[Toranaga]

okay...

do you have checks

[Toranaga]

I mean there's just no way

6 claimable roles is just, no. it's a 13er ffs.

[Toranaga]

look man I was having a nice intelligent conversation for once in this fucking game and you spoil it, I hope you're not FPSing and give me the checks please.

[Toranaga]

what are the checks HEM, just say it already.

[Toranaga]

frankly I think you're just scum now

[Toranaga]

if HEM is backup, mulch is scum

[Toranaga]

well anyway, you guys have my reads

nice try HEM

lynch mulch if the porkens is town

[Toranaga]

“I have a confirmed townie”

“Let’s not say who it is when I could get nightlilled so they don’t ... nightkill them”


Also pork is a shitty as fuck lynch

agree with how terrible that claim was and pork is a shitty af lynch

[Toranaga]

Can we lynch HEM tomorrow?

I think the claim is slightly townie because it seems like he is trying to draw my NK in my stead

but it was also around the time we were discussing his scummyness and it completely broke off the conversation, so...

IDK. I think HEM is town. but if you lynch him, as he likes to say about other people, it's his own fault.

[Toranaga]

what's the agenda of someone who pretty much voted everybody and induced others to vote him? who just wants to get someone lynched and move the day? I don't see scum motivation in anything porkens did in this game.

[Toranaga]

Im not gonna NKed tho because Toranaga is gonna die. Tomorrow well have a VERY narrow lynchpool.

what if I'm scum

[Toranaga]

did you peek porkens scum

wow

[Toranaga]

yeah ok

my read into this, and I have to be honest because HEM is digging his own grave here, is that HEM is town, not backup, and is trying to draw the NK in my stead. I don't see the scum motivation here, but ofc a backup is ridiculously OP so he can't really be it.

[Toranaga]

Or the scum has an OP PR.

in before godfather ninja fruit vendor

[Toranaga]

Not gonna say anything about my peek until tomorrow. I hold all the cards now. No reason to reveal it all.

Ok but Tor thinks you're fake claiming to protect him. You could kill 2 birds with 1 stone. First you offer your conf. town in place of Tor. Either way we have a conf. town? Second you prove your PR and we don't mislynch you.

Tomorrow there should be 7 left after the nightkill right? So if there are still 3 scum left after the porky flip, then it's technically lylo and you know we can't afford a mislynch.

There are more than a handful of things which scream at me that HEM is scum, including the points others have made, just from your claim alone.

2 scum, not 3. 7 with 3 scum would be lylo. and yes HEM needed to hardclaim with his peeks this gameday unless he legitimately peeked porkens scum.

[Toranaga]

CT, the only scum motivation HEM has for doing this is trying to appear townie. as town he is legitimately trying a pro-town play, something VERY RARE in this town.

[Toranaga]

2 scum? Have you guys already killed 1 or does the setup only have 2?

LOL

we lynched scum skitter on d2...

[Toranaga]

HEM your play is silly unless you're what you say you are. they're gonna resolve you now.

[Toranaga]

I don't think you're scum and you're pretty high on marijuana

[Toranaga]

I'll get NKed, and then tomorrow you'll hard unclaim and everyone will find you scummy for it.

you gave scum a mislynch.

but ok you do you.

[Toranaga]

I fucking appreciate the effort though. that was the first reasonably pro-town play someone tried since d1.

[Toranaga]

lynch mulch way before you ever touch the monkey

[Toranaga]

don't push for hardclaims early d1
don't lynch people early d1
don't pretend to MAJ, that's awful
don't pretend to put people on L-1, that's awful

first two are anti-town and the other two are just angleshooty behaviour that sucks

[Toranaga]

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

[Toranaga]

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLVES

[Toranaga]

I visited sergtacos, he didn't visit anyone at night

[Toranaga]

sergtacos made by far, hands down, the scummiest post in the entire game last gameday.

this NK means either;or:

- scum is framing me (I was being townread only by mulch and thor);
- scum has no idea what they're doing;

let's sit on this for a bit. My initial assumption is that a scum team that does not contain mulch would not believe that claim at all. I say that knowing I'm a villager so you guys don't have the same frame of reference here. I'm also not sure mulch would want to keep me alive either, and I'm 100% certain mulch would never, ever in a million years believe the monkey hardclaim. so if mulch did it, it's a framing job and it means the person scumreading me the most (chip butty) is a villager.

the only pair of scum that I can see actually believing such terrible claim is chip butty and sergtacos. and then keeping me alive makes sense because I'm more or less townreading both slots, or was until last gameday. However, I don't think chip is scum with tacos the way he pushed him last gameday's EOD either.

I don't think this is WIFOM territory. we can certainly draw good conclusions here, even if I have to flip for it.

Mulch who did you send fruit to

[Toranaga]

Further further more, the wolves thought that he was a cop. And the only possible peek he could have had was on me, beacuse he flat out said I was town. So I am SHC.

hmmm so you actually do have a plan going down to use this and frame me for it. too bad you just openshoved all your chips at SOD instead of pretend to be thinking about it.

[Toranaga]

Mulch who did you send fruit to

Monkey...

delicious

lynch me, then you

[Toranaga]

I'm intrigued scum bought into that claim.
Pretty much moves the odds of scum in the PRs closer to 100%.
Or maybe just derpy scum?

VOTE: Sergtacos

yup

mulch...

why did you visit monkey? if you 'knew' I was going to kill him if I'm scum?

why didn't you visit anyone else?

I thought you were logical.

[Toranaga]

Talk about "putting chips on the table" your made an immediate massive wall about how it was a frame kill lmfao

I'm not doing that at all, I've considered many possibilities here including not involving you. you'd never ever buy into that so if you're doing it, is with a plan.

why would you ever send fruit to monkey of all people? why send fruit to a guy you're SURE is getting NKed if I'm scum?

[Toranaga]

I'm intrigued scum bought into that claim.
Pretty much moves the odds of scum in the PRs closer to 100%.
Or maybe just derpy scum?

VOTE: Sergtacos

yup

mulch...

why did you visit monkey? if you 'knew' I was going to kill him if I'm scum?

why didn't you visit anyone else?

I thought you were logical.

Because I thought Monkey was a wolf, and that you were town. Stop flailing. I was almost dead set on you being town

how about misère slot? it's not getting NKed at all. what about thor? also not a NK target. cheeky? again, yeah, but makes sense. sergtacos again? makes sense too!

but monkey? the guy that hardclaimed at EOD???

[Toranaga]

why would you ever send fruit to monkey of all people? why send fruit to a guy you're SURE is getting NKed if I'm scum?

Because the possibility of you being scum was so so so small. I was positive you were being killed, and I only kept you being scum as a small paranoia theory in the back of my mind. And Monkey for some reason said he wanted fruit from me a couple days ago.

that's a bullshit reason to send fruit to a hardclaimed backup when you could literally go anywhere else.

[Toranaga]

how about misère slot? it's not getting NKed at all. what about thor? also not a NK target. cheeky? again, yeah, but makes sense. sergtacos again? makes sense too!

but monkey? the guy that hardclaimed at EOD???

Because it was so fucking obvious that he wasn't a cop. It was such a small chance he would be killed. Such a small, small chance. I also thought he was scum, which of course meant he coulden't be killed. The ONLY reason why he would be killed is if scum needed an excuse to kill

B U L L S H I T

thor if you don't think that's bullshit you're the f3 lynch.

[Toranaga]

why would you ever send fruit to monkey of all people? why send fruit to a guy you're SURE is getting NKed if I'm scum?

Because the possibility of you being scum was so so so small. I was positive you were being killed, and I only kept you being scum as a small paranoia theory in the back of my mind. And Monkey for some reason said he wanted fruit from me a couple days ago.

that's a bullshit reason to send fruit to a hardclaimed backup when you could literally go anywhere else.

If I'm scum I just send it to a random person lol there's zero incentive for me to send it to the nightkill

you cannot send it to a random person and NK someone else. you'd have to send it exactly to your NK and you have to do the NK if you're keeping the town tracker alive, because you would not take the chance of having me track your scum partner.

you're 100% outed. 100%. too bad I didn't flip green yet.

[Toranaga]

Mulch I'm gonna be confident if you're gonna out yourself in such a bizarre manner to send fruit to fucking HEM of all people LOL

what a terrible plan man.

[Toranaga]

thor this is it man. mulch is outed, and if you're gonna sit there and pretend not to see it he is getting the f5 and you're getting the f3.

I'll G L A D L Y self vote and end the day if you believe mulch over me

[Toranaga]

thor this is it man. mulch is outed, and if you're gonna sit there and pretend not to see it he is getting the f5 and you're getting the f3.

I'll G L A D L Y self vote and end the day if you believe mulch over me

No you won't, bullshit lmfao. And if you are town you woulden't.

I did that d2, I'll do it again on d4 if the smart, reasonable and experienced thor even hints at believing you over me.

[Toranaga]

we are lynching one of me and mulch. whoever flips green, the other is outed. no other scenario.

if mulch is town fruit vendor and sent fruit to fucking HEM, after outing havo, getting maria lynched and making -20 points of scummyness- on the town tracker just to get him lynched, I'll happily hold hands with mulch and lose the game. if mulch flips green, 100% lynch me next gameday.

[Toranaga]

I'll do it again on d4 if the smart, reasonable and experienced thor even hints at believing you over me.

Oh really?

absolutely

if thor believes you over me I'll scream in bold letters that after you flip, he gets the f3 lynch.

[Toranaga]

if mulch flips green, 100% lynch me next gameday.

Oh really?

Just like you said 100% lynch me if I'm not nightkilled?

yeah but you framed me, and did so horribly LOL

you're so outed. does anyone need me to explain why mulch is outed right now?

[Toranaga]

where are you thor

considering your options here?