Mini 1427 - Slenderman Mafia - Game Over

[Yates]

VOTE: -L-

This has to be done...

[Yates]

I feel like my vote on -L- has been ineffective. :/

[Yates]

Yeah. I think she's afraid to play in another game with me. And that makes me sad. Because I'm like - sooo nice.

[Yates]

UNVOTE: -L- because this is a worthless vote.

i am different because i have left my vote on someone that i see as a possibility of scum and until seen otherwise that they are very townish i'm going to think that they could be.

So it takes someone being "very townish" to convince you to move an RVS vote?

This feels like a stretch at best if not an outright misrep.

VOTE: serrapaladin

I don't like it when people do that.

[Yates]

It might be Yates, had I not phrased it as a question...

As my father used to say; don't bullshit a bullshitter. Your "question" was less an actual question and more of an assertion.

Observe...

Why are you so bad at this game, serrapaladin?

[Yates]

What do you think leviathan meant then?

Inertia. Objects at rest and all that. Once a vote is placed, it is easier to let the vote sit until there is reason strong enough to MOVE the vote.

Take my vote on you, for example. What do you think it would take to get me to change my vote? You haven't really given me a reason to move my vote. No one has provided a better case at this point to make me move my vote of my own accord. So here it sits. Inertia.

[Yates]

@ serrapaladin - also, you didn't respond to my "question."

[Yates]

but this... [quotes serrapaladin] is an understandable point.

Which is what makes it scummy and a misrep. Scum will twist words because they aren't 100% clear and present an opportunity. Does not fly.
He puts words in your mouth then says "woah dude I was just asking a question." Does not fly.
Now he's trying to engage me in an attempt at defining how he can get away with this nonsense later if he isn't lynched now. Does not fly.

I'm not a serrapaladin fan right now and feel better about my vote with each post.

[Yates]

Yeah buddy.

[Yates]

@ Mod

- As much as it disheartens me to have to ask this of you, in regards to my dear sweet friend -L- might we have a prod or replace? Thank you kindly.

[Yates]

Also, I'd like you to note how I never voted for Mhork. So tell me, how am I trying to push a lynch?

Did you and serrapaladin go to mafia school together? Trying to pretend like you can't push a lynch without actually voting for someone is in the top 3 dumbest things I've seen today. And I saw a woman texting on her phone walk into a glass door that she has probably walked through 1,000 times before, so that's saying something. How about this; how is it that 9 posts in a row of your ISO referred to AJ's "softclaim" and how bad it was WITHOUT pushing his lynch? Because actually, that's probably scummier than if you had put your money where your mouth hole is. And it all culminated with this gem:

I have seen you play town though, and I don't remember anything like that coming from you

Are you going to have us believe that you honestly weren't pushing for [or at LEAST testing] an AJ lynch after accusing him of exhibiting behavior that "Town AJ" doesn't exhibit?

FoS: fuzzy

You two are like the Abbott and Costello of this game and it has me concerned because I can no longer discern if it's because you are scum, you're trolling us, or you're just not playing well. If you are Town, step it up and stop reaching into your diaper and flinging stuff like this up on the screen.

I'm out to wash my hands. I feel filthy.

[Yates]

I'll say this slowly - you can't say this:

If I would have thought Mhork was scum, I would have voted him right then and there. I wasn't pushing a Lynch, I was asking a question.

And this:

Pressuring, trying to figure out how he could know something that was never posted. Am I the only one that finds something off about that?

...in the same post! You just contradicted yourself. You say in the first quote you are just asking a question - not pushing a lynch. Then in the second quote you say you are trying to pressure him and that there's something "off" about him.

Here's the thing, fuzzy, "pressure" is a form of pushing a lynch. Asking a "question" about something you find "off" is a form of pushing a lynch. Inserting meta ["you don't do this as Town"] is a form of pushing a lynch. So stop saying you weren't pushing an AJ lynch because you are lying. In this game, we lynch all liars because lying is inherently antiTown.

[Yates]

Alright. I'm not going to argue semantics. To me, pressuring=pushing a lynch. You can't effectively pressure if there is no pressure. The only pressure in this game is the threat of being lynched. Therefore, the only way to apply pressure is to push for a lynch. What I found weird about you was that you were "pressuring" without actually applying pressure via your vote.

[Yates]

Totally getting a town read off Yates, which is strange because I haven't been able to read him well in the past.

Have we been in anything besides Karma and Inbetweeners?

I was a Cop replaced after two posts in Karma and I was VT while you were scum in Inbetweeners. I appreciate the Town read but I'm a little confused about the meta data. Also, I'm FoS on Fuzzy but voting his bro serrapaladin. To me, serra is still scummier than fuzzy is derp.

[Yates]

Yates, what connection do you see between a serra/fuzzy team?

I wasn't being literal when I called serra his "bro." That's a call back to when I referred to them as Abbot and Costello.

[Yates]

@Yates, in the Inbetweeners I was in one of two scum teams

Ah right. I forgot there were two scum teams in that game. I feel better about your benchmark.

Re: AJ - I've only been in one game with him that I can recall. Aj The Epic was confirmed VT when I replaced in and died that night so I don't have much in terms of meta knowledge on him. I think you may be slightly jaded towards AJ due to his RVS vote on you so keep that in mind as you assess his play. I think characterizing his "I know myself to be Town" statement when giving the logic behind his stance in post 45 as a "softclaim" is a farce. Honestly, the only "questionable" post he has made was his "sarcasm" post. I didn't read that as sarcastic in the slightest either, given that he voted with me in the same breath. That said, he is agreeing with me on a player I have been unimpressed with thus far so I'm not judging that too harshly and appreciate the wagon support.

I kind of think you guys are barking up the wrong tree with SP and/or Fuzzybuttern,uts so I won't be too offended if you think I'm doing the same.

I will admit that the biggest "hole in my swing" mafia wise would be derp play. I often find it incredibly difficult to distinguish between bad play and scum play when logic is all but nonexistant. I was most recently in 0 Percent Flavor with -L- and HD, as an example. I had a hard on to get Monkeyman lynched Day 1. People convinced me I was on a witch hunt and that he was just derp. As a result he lived until Day 4 and guess what? =4711737]He was scum. Conversely, -L- played like a complete tool. I ended up switching my vote to her Day 1 and helped =4665635]lynch our Gunsmith. Honestly, as bad as -L- was playing that probably ended up being part of the reason we won in retrospect but it didn't make me happy. I don't think I ever voted for scum HD that game, btw, which shows you that I can sometimes be equally fooled by competent play. *shrug*

So I guess what I'm saying is that I think serra is scummy/playing poorly enough that his lynch could be good for Town one way or the other in lieu of an obviously superior lynch candidate. So, I'm comfortable with his wagon unless you can convince me that you have a way better lynch candidate.

[Yates]

My play was anything but competent that game; I've had far,

far

better scum games.

That may be true from a scum-team perspective but you still read as Town and presented as logical, which is my point.

Also, regarding setup spec, I hate setup spec on Day 1 since we have zero info outside of the number of players. It could be 2 scum and a 3rd party, it could be 2 scum and a vig, it could be 2 scum and investigators with sanity issues... It's just way too soon to worry about that since we have no baseline for making assumptions on any of this stuff.

[Yates]

calling people town as a general acceptance is a good way to get that person killed.

Quoted for truth. Part of the reason I started posting with a more surly demeanor is because I was becoming obvtown too soon and getting killed N1 or N2. By not pulling punches I've found that I get better results even if people aren't super happy with my "no kids gloves" demeanor. Also, scum seem to think I'm mislynch bait as a result. Also, I'm sometimes wrong which makes scum even more sure they can get me mislynched or try to get me to focus on their Town mislynch du jour.

As an aside - That's that uncomfortable feeling that you can't explain, fuzzy, so stop being dumb and accept I could be scum. You don't know. Or do you?

[Yates]

oh yeah. /self meta.

[Yates]

Isn't it a little early to be discussing which lynch, town or scum, can be informative?

It's never too early to discuss information. That, however, is not at all what I was saying. I was saying serra is either scum OR playing in a way that impedes Town [much like -L- did in 0%] which makes *ME* comfortable with his lynch. Anybody else on the wagon needs to have their own reasons for being on it as it will be analyzed later.

Are you seriously saying that you want to play scummy to avoid taking the bullet for the town?

Not exactly - but yes. I'd rather be around and have at least *some* control over how this game goes than be dead and leave the game in the hands of people I have less confidence in read wise than myself. You don't know my role. Maybe I'm just waiting for the right moment to drop the PR [soft]claim to draw scum to me at a later point - as I did in Politics Mafia. All that remains to be see is this; do you already know my alignment?? <_<

[Yates]

Sup, Saftey. You scum, bro?

[Yates]

I don't get why Yates isn't really commenting on anything besides me.

There's nothing worth commenting about. Also, I was super busy winning my other game then was afk for the rest of the day.

[Yates]

HD - is Fuzzy scum or derp Town? Go.

[Yates]

Yeah, I'm going to state because of all his posts and the thought that SEEMS to have gone into them and the time as well most likely that Human Destroyer is looking very town at the moment.

i don't think scum would have gone through the trouble honestly

.

WHAT??

I don't have a scum read on HD but ^THAT^ right there is not a reason to "Town" read someone.

[Yates]

maybe its just me

Probably just you.

This is my first post replacing in to a scum slot: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p4650236

You should ISO me in that game and look at the push I made on Darthe. It's insane. No scum would EVER do that. Which is why I did it.

PE - No. Competent scum would. That's how you win games as scum.

[Yates]

*shrug* I wouldn't know. I've never been scum.

I know you didn't read the link in the 30 seconds between my post and your response. Which makes me feel like I am talking to an inanimate object. Or, someone who doesn't care about facts because he is pushing a preordained agenda. Weird. You know who does that?

[Yates]

VOTE: CareyHammer

I don't even know where to begin...

[Yates]

You could begin by not mistaking stupidity for scum.

What makes him not scum? Other than confbias based on Ree and Fuzzy being pro Carey lynch?

Guys, I dont even read the thread until a few days before deadline.

Maybe you should correct that or replace out because that's not how this game is played.

[Yates]

I never said he was town, I said I don't necessarily think he's scum. Nice misrep.

That's not a misrep. You have done everything just short of flat out calling him Town:

You could begin by not mistaking stupidity for scum.

Here you essentially said he is dumb - not scum.

If we lynch scum, we don't even have to worry about LYLO.

Here you suggest that lynching someone OTHER THAN Carey will net us scum.

When I asked you to tell me why he was just dumb and not scum all you did was tell me that the burden of proof isn't on you. :/

I don't have burden of proof here, don't try to shove it on me

@Fuzzy: This is a TERRIBLE vote.

You know, on second thought, i'd be much happier with a HD lynch.

VOTE: Human Destroyer

At least build a case instead of placing an OMGUS vote.

[Yates]

ANTI-TOWN you could make the case for. That is there.

What's the difference between anti-Town and scummy? Seems like too fine a point. To me, that's like being upset with a lynch on an SK because the SK isn't TECHNICALLY scum.

I admit that I can't point at a single post and say "THAT is what scum would do," however I likewise can't point to a single post and say "THAT is what I expect from Town." By the time you throw in the fact that Carey is playing against a Town win condition? I am at a loss as to why you would be against a Carey lynch and would like your opinion on record should this lynch go through.

PE:
@HD - of the 4, I'd only be down with serrapaladin but I still want you to address the above.
@Fuzzy - How do you know Ree is Town??

[Yates]

Anti-town is a player who's failing at being town, but isn't playing to a scum win condition. Scummy is a player who IS playing to a scum win condition.

What win condition is THIS playing to?

popping in to say hi. sheeping fuzzy.

VOTE Ree

I hope I did not just hammer

"oopsie - hopes I didn't accidentally hammer - teeheehee!"

[Yates]

what does this accomplish as scum?

I guess it would depend on the Ree flip if he had actually hammered. What if Ree was at L-1 and was just forced to claim Cop before anyone else was able to attest to the validity of the claim? This is just setting us up for more illogical votes that, as scum, he could explain away by just saying, "oppsie - you know how I play! herpa derp!"

This is why the VI hole in my swing exists. I appreciate the second set of eyes but come on...

[Yates]

My style is vote early and often.

If you are Town would you please replace out?

UNVOTE: CareyHammer

You are the worst kind of "player" and honestly need to get more practice in the beginner's section and stay out of theme games until you know wtf you are doing. If you don't replace out, I *am* going to lynch you and don't even care what your role or alignment are. HD can confirm - I lynched a VI Town Gunsmith in 0% Flavor Mafia and, as I stated in end game, it was probably the move that won us the game. So don't think for a second I'm going to let you skate by in this game with horrible play. I don't suffer fools.

[Yates]

Sorry, I'm not leaving. If you want me out you're going to have to lynch me.

As you wish.

VOTE: CareyHammer

[Yates]

I would encourage anyone not currently voting for Carey to read post 372 and follow my links. HD was trying to convince me that I shouldn't vote for Carey because he was *just* being anti Town and not scum. I link to 0% because that was my most recently completed Town game. In that game, I was given a choice of believing that someone playing anti Town was a gunsmith OR just lynching her. I lynched her. She flipped Town gunsmith. Guess what? We won the game BECAUSE of that lynch. Had we not lynched -L- there is zero doubt in my mind that we would have lost the game due to her fail "logic" and getting our vig's killed. In this game, I have no idea what is going to happen. I don't know Carey's alignment. What I do know is that Carey is anti Town and thus a detriment to MY win condition. You each need to ask yourselves how comfortable you feel knowing that Carey is in the game and could potentially hold your life in his completely incompetent hands if he is even Town.

The rest is up to you.

[Yates]

Levi - you should join the Carey wagon. The Serra wagon is going nowhere today and, frankly, you need the Town points.

[Yates]

depending on how they turn i'm going to assume that person may be scummy. Its always how I role.

How can you make this statement when you made the following statement immediately preceding it?

experienced

players fail hammers all the time. to me, a failed hammer is when a town is hammered and lynched by another town player

. both noob players and experienced players do that all the time.

For one thing, what you are calling a "fail hammer" is actually called a "mislynch." What AJ is calling a "fail hammer" is not the mislynch itself but everything else occurring in the game at the time of the hammer screaming that the game needs to be slowed down for a second and the hammer needs to not go off prematurely. Two different things.

With that said, your current assumptions regarding people hammering mislynches needs to be adjusted. The person doing the hammering on a mislynch needs to be judged based on the evidence at hand and their game as a whole. I can tell you without hesitation that Town hammers Town FAR more often than scum does. Also, the inverse to this line of thinking would be that scum don't vote for their scum buddies - which is also untrue.

Also, in case you are curious, this is how the game AJ is referring to went down. The spoiler below is the cliff notes version of how the final votes went but Town hammered Town 4 out of 4 days [last day where scum [me] hammered Town for the win doesn't count]. Also, as scum I hammered my scum buddy D4 - the only time we lynched scum [if you follow the link the VC is wrong - SC didn't lynch himself, I lynched him]. Of greater note, Town was mislynch by a Town PR in EACH instance!

Spoiler:

Day 1 - VT hammered by Town Lie Detector
Day 2 - VT hammered by Town Cop
Day 3 - VT hammered by Town Doc

Day 4 - Scum RB hammered by Scum Neighborizer

Day 5 - VT hammered by Town Doc
Day 6 - Town Lie Detector hammered by Scum Neighborizer for the win.

Point being, vote for Carey because you think he is scum or because you think he is anti-Town [SK?] OR because you think he will hurt the Town. And make sure you add your case for your vote because ultimately THAT is what will judge the scumminess of your vote regardless of Carey's alignment flip.

[Yates]

So, we're just going to hammer me?

Have you given us reason not to? Your play continues to be horrible. Your request to lynch Fuzzy instead is noted but not supported by a case or evidence or really ANYTHING other than because he isn't you. So yeah. I guess we are going to hammer you as promised when you decided you didn't want to play to a Town win condition or replace out. Get used to it. I see a LOT of policy lynches in your future.

[Yates]

Whoever hammers me is verified scum

Or verified Town.

Or verified null.

[Yates]

Mod, please replace me out

UNVOTE: CareyHammer

Thanks, Carey. No hard feelings. Try a couple of games in Road to Rome to get adjusted to the game.

[Yates]

Are people still playing this game?

[Yates]

What's the case on Ree, now?

I'm probably going back to serra at this point if there isn't anyone more interesting.

Fuzzy is on that uncomfortable border between tolerable hand hold requiring noob posting and possible hidden scum motivation posting.

I get that Mhork is LA right now but he does have 35 posts without saying a whole hill of beans. This typically sets off alarm bells for me.

kiwi is also starting to tick me off. Lurker scum? Speaking of which...

@Mod - can we please have a prod on kiwi? Thanks!

Safety just replaced -L- on Friday and already has as many posts as kiwi. Looking for content outside of the Carey discussion [and a perceived lulz vote on Fuzzy] now that the replace out has been resolved. @ Safety - was that a serious vote or lulz? We are out of RVS.

I'm fence-sitting on HD. He knows how to get on my good side while still antagonizing me - a la the CareyHammer discussion [posts 327 and 333]. He did so successfully as scum in our last game together. So, I have my guard up but don't see scum motivation in his posting.

AJ is Town reading like a boss right now.

By process of elimination that puts me in the Ree, Levi, Serra camp. I didn't like the Lee-Serra buddy post 285 where Mr-Ree agreed with serra re: Fuzzy's fail logic but then votes the easy CH wagon. There is obviously some confirmation bias there since my initial read on serra was scummy. So I guess that requires further scrutiny.

@Mr_Ree - why didn't you vote Fuzzy in post 285 instead of Carey?

[Yates]

Yeah, we're on page 18 and he has 7 posts. That's ridiculous. Replace or lynch.

i'm all for that.

I would see L and safetydance as more scummy for lurking then i would kiwi. he's at least attempted to try to play the game. the L and safety position has not.

Are you two high?

Safety just replaced -L- on Friday

and

already has as many posts as kiwi

.

As of this moment kiwi has 7 posts. Subtract the rvs vote and the replace out vote and kiwi has 5 content posts in 11 days which translates to 0.45 posts per day.

-L- hasn't been on site since the game started and never acknowledged her role. Are you arguing that THIS is scum behavior??

Safety replaced in on a Friday and posts 1 prod dodge [with content I might add] over the weekend - which is a standard V/LA 2 days for most people. Still, he has 9 content posts in 6 days which translates to 1.5 posts per day - or over 3x the content of kiwi. How is Safety's "lurking" more scummy that kiwi's, again?

Can I still do this?

VOTE: Safety Dance

No. No, you can't. That's pretty much the scummiest thing you can do.
VOTE: CareyHammer

[Yates]

UNVOTE: Ms Marangal

That doesn't mean you are off the hook for your predecessor's scumtastic play. That vote was not "VI meta" play, as serra has alleged. That's straight up scummy. Sorry you replaced into his slot and need to explain the motivation for that but that's where you are.

[Yates]

Also, Carey continuing to lurk in this thread after replacing out is setting off alarm bells. There's a good chance I'll put my vote right back on Marangal barring some serious quality posting.

[Yates]

Yeah. I think you need to reread the thread. Nearly everything you said in post 482 was wrong, misrepped, or a lie.

[Yates]

Serra was Yates choice for the vote, but...

he really only spent one post on him

I spent "one post on him?" Really? Did you read posts 107, 111, 122, 123, 128, or 138? If I spent any more time on serra it would be a tunnel. And, quite frankly, I had bigger fish to fry once your slot started needing special attention.

Yates was also

an advocate for the Safety wagon

Given that I re-voted for Carey after he voted for Safety, you think post 469 is me "advocating" for a Safety lynch?

Spoiler:

Safety replaced in on a Friday and posts 1 prod dodge [with content I might add] over the weekend - which is a standard V/LA 2 days for most people. Still, he has 9 content posts in 6 days which translates to 1.5 posts per day - or over 3x the content of kiwi. How is Safety's "lurking" more scummy that kiwi's, again?

more recently though, I feel as if he is trying to come up with an excuse to continue my wagon, he even took the time to screen-cap and do a paint job to prove that Carey was lurking after being replaced.

Care to explain how posting facts and evidence are something I *shouldn't* be doing? Screen caps are necessary if you are going to allege that a player that supposedly quit the game is still lurking in the game since not everyone will be on at the same time to see it.

I told you that you needed to Town post like a boss to get out of the hole Carey dug for your slot. Instead you are BOTH just making the hole deeper. The fact that you replaced in doesn't automagically remove all the scum motivation behind your predecessor's posts. Now YOU have some explaining to do to rectify your terrible posting and the motivation behind it.

[Yates]

Holy shit that wall..O_O

Seriously. And it says nothing. This is what we like to call a "smoke screen." Might work in Road to Rome but doesn't cut mustard here.

It also doesn't hide the fact that your post 482 was complete garbage and I just blew it up in 485. So, pretending like your attempts at misrepping me didn't happen is really not sliding.

[Yates]

@Marangal - Also, as an aside, you should probably look up the definitions of the words "fluff," "misrep," and "AtE." Thank you in advance.

[Yates]

you still have yet to confess of your Misrepresentations on several other people. the entire game, you have been hypocritical.

List three

actual

misreps and I will be happy to refute or apologize. Otherwise, you are continuing to make stuff up or aren't reading the thread.

[Yates]

I missed this one while I was ISO'ing

So you acknowledge that:

1. I spent more than "one post" on Serra, thus your first allegation was fallacious.
2. I did not in fact "advocate" a Safety wagon, thus your second allegation was also fallacious.
3. You are choosing to ignore the fact that your slot and your slots predecessor have been acting weird about this whole replacement, thus we need to allow others to weigh in on this.

Are these true statements?

[Yates]

Fluff is posting with little to no content

And as an example you chose to point to post 130. You realize that you would have to look at post 129 to understand context, yes? In context, post 130 is actually cheerleading my current wagon which is the opposite of fluff. But I'm sure the next one you were right about.

Oh darn. You chose to point to post 132 as fluff, too. A request for a prod on a player that hadn't posted or acknowledged their role in three days is considered "fluff" by you?

Maybe third time is the charm. Oh darn. You point to post 157 where Mr_Ree and I are discussing meta reads on each other as well as AJ which is also the opposite of "fluff."

Strike 3. No need to address each false fluff accusation. Moving on.

Misrep is misrepresentation, making someone seem different then the way the actually appear

You call post 111 and post 128] a "misrep." What, exactly, am I misrepresenting? Are you saying that serra's "question" was not, in fact, an

accusation?

Spoiler:

Because putting a question mark at the end of a sentence totally doesn't make it a misrep

Let's see if you get the next one right. Oh darn. You call post 138 a misrep, too. Hmmm.... Can you please tell me how the verifiable FACTS introduced in that post are in any way a misrep? Am I missing something? Because YOU actually restate the point of the post:

BTW, you can push for a lynch without voting

Wow. That's a SERIOUS wiff on your part for strike two.

So we move on to my next misrep accusation where you point to post 267. Wow. I don't know what to say. I accuse Fuzzy of not reading the link which HE ACKNOWLEDGES in the very next post!!

Spoiler:

I was actually referring to the PE, and am currently reading what you posted. Thanks.

That's strike 3 again. So... yeah. No misrepping. No matter how many times you say the word "misrep" it doesn't make it true as evidenced by, you know, FACTS.

Moving on...

AtE is appeal to emotion

So you point to post 344? A post where two people who know wtf is going on are talking game theory? Fail.

Then you point to post 379 as AtE? The post that got the Carey wagon rolling and finally got him to replace out? Wow. UBER Fail on your part.

If you can explain how post 479 is AtE I will buy you a cookie.

Your whole ISO break down is full of more holes and inaccuracies than an episode of Drunk History.

[Yates]

Oh good - I addressed all your bullshit already. Cool.

[Yates]

Oh. It looks like I missed one thing:

@Marangal - Also, as an aside, you should probably look up the definitions of the words "fluff," "misrep," and "AtE." Thank you in advance.

and a misrep on my knowledge. with moar mudslinging

I'm "misrepping" your

knowledge?

Wow. That's... that's... wow. No. That's not a misrep. That's belittling you. Because you appear to be dumb. Those are two completely different things.

Kind of like this:

you are focusing on his actions more then you are mine

Is this statement a "misrep?" Or is it simply factually inaccurate as evidenced by my last few posts? It's a mystery...

[Yates]

but this post is major AtE. yeah, it got Carey to replace out, but that doesn't change the fact that it appeals to the emotions of all the players. especially the bolded parts. hell, those bolded parts are specifically worded to bring out emotions.

Actually, the bolded is specifically an appeal to LOGIC.

As for the other two; just because someone says thanks and sorry doesn't make it AtE. You are desperately reaching. Your refusal to acknowledge this fact speaks volumes.

In regards to post 130 if you understand the context then you can't possibly hold to your bogus claim that a cheerleading post is fluff.

I don't believe that Delving into meta is helpful in anyway, and this to me it is Fluff

Wow. Why do you think meta arguments exist? The fact that you claim you "don't believe in meta" is not the same as "meta is fluff," by the way. Your logic is absurdly flawed.

I'm not concerned with your perception that I might be hurting peoples' feelings when I blow holes in their arguments and point out obvious stupidity. You are a case in point. If you don't want me to call your arguments stupid, start using logic that consistently makes sense and, at the very least, start presenting FACTS in your arguments. In other words, step up or get out of the way and let the grown ups figure this out.

[Yates]

You know, I'd personally rather lynch Fuzzy or Ree

Is 273 your case?

[Yates]

Hmm. I'm thinking it's more of an Amish Mafia tell? Am I right?

No. Amished tell dictates that if you criticize who you replaced in; you're scum.

[Yates]

So... we use a bunch of electrically impaired people to name a full tell, or am I missing something?

You're missing something. The player's name was "Amished" and he was constantly replacing in to scum slots. People knew he was scum when he started bad mouthing the person he replaced.

[Yates]

The fact that carey was watching is some outside force we cannot account for.

Absolutely this:

Carey was being totally obvious about maintaining an interest in this, likely because he's scum that was having issues with trying not to be too obvscummy and now wants to see how his replacement is learning.

That is where my head went IMMEDIATELY. I've never replaced out of a game so I can only speculate as to how and why *I* would be lurking in a game I literally *just* replaced out of. It's nuts.

Sure, in a vacuum it might not mean anything. But look at the last few posts of Carey's ISO. Or, really, look at magpie's entire body of work since replacing in. Too much weird crap that doesn't add up.

[Yates]

Nice posting, fuzz.

[Yates]

Me too. I thought we were buddies...


Is there anything specific? Or are you going to try to hide behind worthless generalities so people don't have anything to analyze after you get me lynched?

PE: OMGLOL. Two thumbs up. Would read again!

[Yates]

You're voting Margie, right?

Uhh... like... yeah. I never unvoted... or anything....

VOTE: Ms Marangal

[Yates]

as for the Amish tells, VP Baltazar states that it doesn't work very well with women

That's because the Amish subjugate their women folk.

The "Amish

ed

Tell," on the other hand, is named after a real life player. Don't see how sex plays a role in a tell that is behavior based.

[Yates]

JESUS CHRIST FUZZY, YOU ARE OPPORTUNISTIC AS FUCK!! HOW THE FUCK DO YOU SHEEP THE GUY YOU JUST VOTED FOR, THAT MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL WHATSOEVER

LOL. This is also true, for what it's worth. If I hadn't already committed so much time and energy to this margarine wagon I'd be sheeping the case onto Fuzzy. And that's the post that would have done it for me. But that's a conversation for tomorrow.

[Yates]

oh, and Mhork was scum because of his greeting.

What?

[Yates]

just because i disagree with you on who to lynch doesn't make make me a BAD player or SCUM. =)

Agreed. You know what makes you a BAD player? This:

[everyone else in the game] simply don't like my playstyle and how i operate in the game. =)

that ain't never going to change. so my advice is just to get over yourselves. =) its a game and i play it my way.

So you recognize that you get lynched a lot because of the way you play but are unwilling to adjust your playing style in order to avoid this in the future? Since I used a baseball reference earlier I will continue with you. This is like saying "I know I strike out a lot because I bat with my eyes closed but that's the way I bat and that aint ever gonna change so MLB scouts need to just get over it." Wrong. You are the one failing. That means YOU are the one that needs to make the adjustment.

Now i think everyone is actually IS apart of this game should post a list of their scum to town reads. so we can see where we are all at.

This is an awesome idea - for scum. "Hey guise, lets give scum a list of the people the Town trusts the most so they know who to kill in order from most Town to least Town!" Brilliant.

and as for your greeting Mhork, at the moment of my entrance that was the first thing I saw and what I got off it was the feeling of sympathy.

Do you even read for context? In all seriousness, are you autistic or possibly a bit touched by Aspergers? That's pretty much the only explanation I would accept for why you are misinterpreting these posts so badly. If you are, you need to include that in your opening post for each game.

I also disagree with the Serra lynch because I believe that he is town.

Three SPECIFIC things that make Serra Town that aren't based on confirmation bias. Go.

I rarely ever lose except when i'm town and people just lynch me and not listen to me

You could be Nostradamus. It doesn't matter if you can't present your cases in a way the rest of the Town understands. Using "gut" isn't going to get people to lynch the people you want lynched. THAT is another part of your game that clearly needs work. If you are going to call someone Town, you need to say why. If you are going to call someone scum, you need to say why. Your "gut" reads come from somewhere. Experience? Posting style? Tells? Meta? Interactions? Otherwise you are just guessing and may as well be pulling names out of a hat.

Yates is an interesting wagon. Ms M's case is reads well and echos many of my thoughts about his play

This is a lazy post and something I would expect from Fuzzy or Levi. If you are going to vote me, you need to be specific about why YOU think I'm scummy and not hide behind the argument of a walking corpse. Otherwise, you won't have a leg to stand on come wagon analysis time. If murple flips scum, you will be scummy for buddying her. If murple flips Town, you will be scummy for distancing from her. You see how that works? So use your own case.

God damn. I feel like I'm in Romper Room.

[Yates]

@Mod: V/LA until likely Sunday due to imminent death in the family

[Yates]

Yates has already stated that regardless of her flip, he'll see me as scummy for it, demonstrating that you can always twist the sort of buddying and distancing that's been going on recently as town- or scum-tells regardless of the flip.

That's only half right. I actually said that the reason you need to present your own case is to PREVENT buddying/distancing arguments so you are judged on your own merit. Otherwise, you're right. Without understanding where your vote came from, I can do nothing but assume that you already know what margarine will flip.

I really don't understand your insane aversion to sheeping an argument you agree with. I had made similar points towards you throughout the game, which Ms M fleshed out and formulated as a rather compelling case.

Hopefully the above addresses why I have an aversion to sheeping. As to the rest of this quote; what similar points are you talking about?

Spoiler:

I could go on a rant about how wrong Yates is about fuzzy and me, but I don't find him particularly scummy

Yates' case, even though wrong, was clear enough not to need a summary.

I don't get why Yates isn't really commenting on anything besides me. It seems he's quite content to have me as his target for the foreseeable future...

There's nothing worth commenting about. Also, I was super busy winning my other game then was afk for the rest of the day.

That's a very simplistic view of the game, Yates.

Are you two high?

Basically this.

Yates ignoring everything but my alleged misrep for pages is a bit odd, but his recent points make sense.

Those were your comments about me prior to your vote. In other words, you never expressed any interest in my lynch, never "raised any points" against me, and were only mildly perturbed by my early game focus on you. In fact, based on the above quoted - along with other posts you have made that tacitly agree with my points against others - one would be inclined to think you should have a Town read on me - which is what makes your vote so out of place.

[Yates]

The Asperger's comment is wildly inappropriate and rather wrong, too. Mhork has indeed expressed sympathy towards Ms M replacing into such a bad slot and I too read his greeting with a slightly apologetic tone.

The Aspergers comment is a legit question. I am not a petulant child that throws around medical conditions as an insult - that's why I prefaced it with "serious question." I have some experience with that population.

This was the entirety of Mhork's post:

Well this is awkward, Ms Margle, but you're getting lynched. Final thoughts?

You think that's a "slightly apologetic tone?" Seriously?

[Yates]

the one he ignored when I pointed it out

Did you actually want a response to a reading comprehension fail on your part? Uhh... ok...

Spoiler:

I rarely ever lose except when i'm town and people just lynch me and not listen to me

You could be Nostradamus.

It doesn't matter if you can't present your cases in a way the rest of the Town understands

. Using "gut" isn't going to get people to lynch the people you want lynched. THAT is another part of your game that clearly needs work. If you are going to call someone Town, you need to say why. If you are going to call someone scum, you need to say why. Your "gut" reads come from somewhere. Experience? Posting style? Tells? Meta? Interactions? Otherwise you are just guessing and may as well be pulling names out of a hat.

Interesting, that a scumslip Yates?

You realize that this statement assumes the following condition proposed by levi - "I rarely ever lose except when i'm town and people just lynch me and not listen to me" - right? So the part you bolded would neither exclude me from membership as Town in this hypothetical nor suggest that I am hinting that he is CURRENTLY Town in the real world.

Though that reminds me:

I also disagree with the Serra lynch because I believe that he is town.

Three SPECIFIC things that make Serra Town that aren't based on confirmation bias. Go.

Wouldn't you like to know?

Yes. That's why I asked. You have a problem with supporting your reads?

[Yates]

Well that won me over

Oh FFS read the thread first. All three of those "points" are bullshit and taken out of context.

1. Read THIS post -

Spoiler:

i am different because i have left my vote on someone that i see as a possibility of scum and until seen otherwise that they are very townish i'm going to think that they could be.

So it takes someone being "very townish" to convince you to move an RVS vote?

Levi is a decent wagon.

VOTE: leviathan

Was Serra "just asking a question" OR was he accusing? Where did you people learn to mafiascum? Failure R Us? I'm "just asking a question." I'm not accusing you of being a failure...


2. Why did I cheerlead Levi onto Carey in 381?

Spoiler:

[Carey] If you are Town would you please replace out?

Sorry, I'm not leaving. If you want me out you're going to have to lynch me.

As you wish.

VOTE: CareyHammer

I would encourage anyone not currently voting for Carey to read post 372 and follow my links. HD was trying to convince me that I shouldn't vote for Carey because he was *just* being anti Town and not scum. I link to 0% because that was my most recently completed Town game. In that game, I was given a choice of believing that someone playing anti Town was a gunsmith OR just lynching her. I lynched her. She flipped Town gunsmith. Guess what? We won the game BECAUSE of that lynch. Had we not lynched -L- there is zero doubt in my mind that we would have lost the game due to her fail "logic" and getting our vig's killed. In this game, I have no idea what is going to happen. I don't know Carey's alignment. What I do know is that Carey is anti Town and thus a detriment to MY win condition. You each need to ask yourselves how comfortable you feel knowing that Carey is in the game and could potentially hold your life in his completely incompetent hands if he is even Town.

The rest is up to you.

Pretty easy to follow. It's three posts in a row in my ISO. And guess what?

Spoiler:

Mod, please replace me out

It worked.

3. Again, RTF thread. Look at this:

Spoiler:

Mod, please replace me out

For the good of town, I surrender

A VI accuses a replacement of "lurking"

Can I still do this?

VOTE: Safety Dance

So he asks to replace out but comes in here to drop votes? WTF? Then he's in here POSTING after getting replaced out??

Spoiler:

Ms Marangal

has replaced

CareyHammer

.

This town trying to save his slot from being mislynched. That is pro-town.

That's the SLOT acting in both a scummy AND illegal manner. The only reason we are having this discussion is because the mod hasn't killed the slot despite breaking the rules for some reason. Could that reason be... balance?

Finally, if ANYONE is getting investigated tonight, it's me. So why not let that result speak for itself? Unless you think I'm the cop... This game has more stupid anti-town players then there can possibly be anti-town slots. At some point, you need to call people out on their bullshit and make people play the game right.

[Yates]

Godfather should die. now.

Keep flailing.

[Yates]

the only scum to ever get innocent upon investigation is godfather. Yates is insinuating that he will come up innocent. he is also welcoming the investigation so that, if cop does investigate him, it will ultimately clear him.

Or... and here's a CRAZY thought... I'm Town and happy to be conf Town so when I tell people they are playing stupid they know it's coming from a Town pov [glares at Levi and Fuzzy]. Of course, I shouldn't have to point out the value of conf Town in a mini game to you, should I??

[Yates]

Hey guys

How about you all listen to me, and get on this beautiful beautiful fuzzy wagon

Don't be shy now

Because we only have 2 days to hammer scum margie.

[Yates]

how about this. If I do happen to be wrong about you, I won't fight my lynch tomorrow.

1. WIFOM was your introduction of the GF allegation - so eat a bag of rotten apples.
2. You are already claimed as a VT. Worst case scenario, you flip VT and the Town has 1 less VI. Unless you are advocating for a rolefish?

[Yates]

and what could I possibly be fishing for?

You are at L-1 and fishing for my role before you hang. Isn't going to happen, scumdog.

[Yates]

LOL - good luck with this game with this cast of characters... Not a God damned one of you is making a lick of sense. And TNE hasn't even read the fucking game yet.

[Yates]

And Levi - I hope you are scum. Because if you are Town you are going to be blacklisted by a good half dozen people if you keep playing like this. Even your "gut" is inconsistent...

PE: 100% - prove me wrong.

[Yates]

how is my gut inconsitent?

How is it NOT?

Spoiler:

People who are more out in the open I consider town. so the people who have posted more then the people who haven't i trust to be more town because they are not afraid of scrutiny of their actions.

Yates is scummy because i believe him to be too perfect. he posts a lot. therefore getting on my good side. he commands the game a bit. he is using intellectual arguments and is very progressing but i simply believe his reads to be wrong and pointed at the wrong people. thus giving me a scum vibe.

You know who is consistent and doesn't make a lot of mistakes? People telling the truth. People with nothing to hide. Basically, the inverse of this:

Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive.

My decisions to speak frankly may not win me friends, but I don't need friends to win. I just need the truth. You know who needs friends?? You think about that.

[Yates]

She isn't getting NKed because she is the lynch today.

If you idiots continue on this path think about this: a. she is scum or b. she was my counter wagon. In which scenario would she be NKed?

Moron.

PE: Obviously. Now stop rolefishing, scum.

[Yates]

Why the hell is fuzzy talking about the NK?

Give you two guesses; one includes the word "idiot" and the other involves the word "scum."

PE: You will never be NKed. You are too easily manipulated by scum and play like you have no idea what's going on. You are an easy mislynch if Town and won't be NKed if you are scum so...

[Yates]

Alright... this voting with the shifting wind malarky is good enough, I guess. As with Carey, there's a fine line between idiot and anti-town. I still count three too many VI's and still have my eye on margie but this can happen.

VOTE: Fuzzy

[Yates]

As dumb as you are, I'm sure you can count to 5, fuzzy.

[Yates]

So at this point it's "VT" Fuzzy or "VT" MM...

How strong is your scum read on Fuzzy, HD?

[Yates]

Odd choice for a night kill

Not really. She hinted heavily at having a PR here:

oh btw ree:

I know what you're thinking. You want to kill me, don't you? I'm sure you do.

Well don't. It's a BAD idea and you shall regret it.

[Yates]

I have Levi on mute. Don't really care what he has to say unless a miracle happens and something intelligent accidentally falls out of his keyboard hole. I'll consider him a Jester until we find at least one scum. Then I'll revisit his play.

[Yates]

i told you the flavor. i can't copy and paste it or i would have.

i'm traitor. safety is scum. if i am killed I turn into scum. if safety is killed. I commute that night. or whatever the hell that means.

Wait.

You are saying you are a Traitor and that mod told you the name of scum.

You are saying that if you are "killed" you become scum.

You are saying that if SAFETY is killed you become scum.

So, finally, you are saying that we should kill Safety so you can become scum and then we should kill you? Is this what you are saying?

[Yates]

If safety dies, levy commutes.

Right. That means if we lynch Safety, Levi commutes to scum tonight, right? Isn't that how commuting works?

[Yates]

Ok. I misunderstood what that meant. That means he commutes out of the night phase so he can't take any night actions [or be targeted]. I thought that meant he BECAME scum.

Interestingly, these are some other points from the wiki:

A Traitor is a member of the Mafia who is separate from the main contingent of the faction. Because it is not a member of the main contingent, it is not capable of talking to the other Mafiosi and cannot perform the factional kill. Beyond this simple definition, the implementation of Traitor varies wildly between games.

This role is necessarily Mafia-aligned

.

....

Try fakeclaiming an incriminating result on some random Townie in order to score a free mislynch.

So if Levi is a Traitor, he *has* to be mafia aligned. If Safety is actually mafia as well, then Levi would have just broken the game and played against his wincon. Since Piggy hasn't frozen the game, something is wrong here and this claim is not adding up.

[Yates]

Also, for the above reason:
VOTE: Levi

If he flips Traitor, then Safety is scum and we lynch Safety. Otherwise, we are lynching in the wrong order.

[Yates]

So it's Day now?

[Yates]

Yeah. I am too. I think we need to wait for flavor since I can't tell if Safety was Town, Scum, or Third Party.

[Yates]

That's my running theory from earlier/yesterday.

[Yates]

Hang on. We need to level set here.

The wiki has no entry for "Princess" as you are redirected to "Beloved Princess."

But with the Beloved Princess, the DAY phase is supposed to be skipped as a punishment to the Town. Since the NIGHT phase was skipped, does that mean Safety was, in fact, scum and that the night was skipped in order to punish scum? If so, the wiki talks about a Guard role. Does that mean Levi is a scum Guard that bussed the Princess?

I am so confused...

[Yates]

So Safety was Town and we skipped night?

[Yates]

Yeah... he got our Princess hanged so...

VOTE: Levi

[Yates]

Also the long face is for mod...

Also also, Levi/Marginal scum team?

[Yates]

If Levi is a Traitor, there would still be 2 scum left, right?

[Yates]

Except the fact that no one has come out and said "I am a Cop and Yates is scum" means I'm p-much conf Town since you all know I was investigated the other night. No reason for the Cop to out himself for an innocent.

Also, there's the fact that I'm the one pointing out that Traitor Levi means 2 scum still alive.

Otherwise, keep flailing. We are going to hang your scum buddy Levi first and work from there...

[Yates]

Yates, what do you mean you were investigated?

Wasn't the plan "investigate Yates?"

[Yates]

that was never the plan yates

Wasn't it?

Let's investigate Yates, per his request, and when he is confirmed, we can get back on track and lynch Ms Marangles like we should be doing in the first place.

And aren't you the one that accused me of being a GF for being okay with being confTown??

Godfather should die. now.

Maybe I just imagined all of this...

[Yates]

I don't think we should lynch levi today, in case there is at least a bit of truth in his claim.

So, you are saying we shouldn't lynch a confessed Traitor? The one that got our Princess killed? That's your logic?

Christ. I don't know which of you anti-Town morons to lynch first. Just kidding. It's Levi.

[Yates]

that's what I was saying when he asked for investigation

If only I could link to ongoing games...

There is value in having confirmed Town in smaller games. That's my point.

[Yates]

town would not try to get the cop to investigate them to prove they were town.

Oh really? Are you saying there is no =4649824]value in having conf Town? Because that's what won me the game in Zero flavor, as HD can attest.

[Yates]

town would not try to get the cop to investigate them to prove they were town.

Oh really? Are you saying there is no value in having conf Town? Because that's what won me the game in Zero flavor, as HD can attest.

[link fixed]

[Yates]

but that doesn't mean town is likely to ask to be investigated

Which is why I linked to you a game where I asked to be investigated as Town. Once I was conf Town, scum couldn't leave me alive. That bought the rest of the Town an extra day and got us the win in mylo.

Sometimes, it's the little things that make all the difference.

[Yates]

Also...

but that doesn't mean town is likely to ask to be investigated

Which is why I linked to you a game where I asked to be investigated as Town. Once I was conf Town, scum couldn't leave me alive. That bought the rest of the Town an extra day and got us the win in mylo.

Sometimes, it's the little things that make all the difference.

^^^

Thanks for proving my point. That's two examples in a row. I could pull up more from my history but that should suffice.

[Yates]

Yates, that's bullshit defense and you know it. We don't even know if we have a cop, and your super obvious role fishing is terrible.

You are stupid or lying if you don't think we have an investigation role of SOME type in this game. That's HOW Town finds scum. Also, I specifically stated that any Cop/investigator should NOT out themselves until they have a guilty. Therefore, at no point did I rolefish. That's pretty much the OPPOSITE of rolefishing. I'd be voting you if we didn't already have conf Scum in Levi. In fact, anyone NOT voting Levi at this point needs to tell me exactly why they are NOT voting for someone that admitted to being scum.

[Yates]

I find it absolutely astounded at how convicted you are that there is an investigative role

You're right. I'm a moron. The fact that EVERY SINGLE GAME I HAVE EVER PLAYED ON MAFIASCUM.NET HAD A TOWN INVESTIGATOR ROLE should in no way indicate that THIS game might have a Town investigator role. I'm sure this game has nothing but VT's vs scum. Sounds like great balance.

[Yates]

I'm not voting levy because his claim seems legit.

His claim of TRAITOR seems legit so you are not voting him? Traitor? Which is, by necessity, a SCUM role? So you are not voting for a scum role because it seems legit? Is this the actual crap that passes for logic in your brain right now??

[Yates]

I'm done listening

Cool. Kindly link me to the last game you were in that didn't have some type of Town investigator. You do that and I will self-vote.

[Yates]

Also, how the fuck is it that I'm somehow defending myself from shit-tastic "logic" when THIS fucking shit exists??!!

I am the TRAITOR!

This role is necessarily Mafia-aligned.

You mother fuckers need to go shoot yourselves in the head and quit this game or be blacklisted for life for being too fucking stupid to play to your win condition if you are actually Town.

[Yates]

Just in case my lynch stupidly goes through... Mork was just in here. He has clearly read all of these posts - demonstrating his monstrous stupidity - and has decided not to react or respond. Use this information as you see fit tomorrow. But lynch Levi first.

[Yates]

Lynch Mhork tomorrow.

At this point Mhork and Margie are both playing so anti-Town they are probably on the same scum team and hoping to slip one by like they did with Safety. I'm going to put a hole in one of them tonight and put an end to this shit.

[Yates]

@Mod - please consider mod-killing any Town that isn't voting for claimed scum - thereby not playing to their win condition. OR never mod another game again. Either option is cool with me. Thanks for your consideration.

[Yates]

I'm not ready to end the day yet.

I'm at L-2.
Confessed scum Levi is at L-3 [and voting for me - which should say SOMETHING].
It takes 5 to lynch.

[Yates]

There's 8 alive, meaning three scum.

Why are there only three people making any sense? <3

Since Levi is already voting me, I'm either inexplicably a scum Godfather in a game with no Cops [as Mhork and Margie would have you believe] OR at least one of the two voting for me are also scum [with Levi] as evidenced by the fact I haven't been hammered yet. So this game just got a whole lot easier.

[Yates]

And I just finished a 21p game that had no cop. So fuck you

Oh. You mean this game that had 2 masons, a compulsive BG, and a vig? The game where the BG would be a defacto "cop" by virtue of dying if he protects scum? That game? Wow. I was just put in my place.

[Yates]

We're being anti town? How? By not speed lynching levy? That's anti town? What happened to discussion and explanation?

Yup.

Let's start with this:

Spoiler:

Also, how the fuck is it that I'm somehow defending myself from shit-tastic "logic" when THIS fucking shit exists??!!

I am the TRAITOR!

This role is necessarily Mafia-aligned.

Please tell me what part of this quoted post requires further "discussion" and "explanation."

Also...

LOUD NOISES!!! RAAAAARRRR!!!!

[Yates]

Okay, this is likely falling on deaf ears but I'm going to put this out there. These are the last 5 completed games in Coney Island:

Timeshift - 13 players - Tracker, Jailkeep, Role Cop
First Time - 13 players - hider, JOAT, gunsmith
Simpsons - 13 players - vig, doctor, cop
Vanger Family - 13 players - tracker and cop
Storm of Songs - 13 players - cop, vig, jailkeep

[Full disclosure - if someone wants to figure this game out, be my guest]

I'm not going to keep linking, but you get the point. In each and every completed game I clicked on, there was SOME type of role designed to find scum.

Granted - this doesn't GUARANTEE that we have an investigator role. It does, however, STRONGLY imply that we likely have one.

I'll let that percolate for a bit because I shouldn't need to defend myself today even if you are 99% sure I'm scum.

Why? Because we know with

100%

certainty that Levi is a Traitor. A Traitor is - by definition - anti Town. Keeping him alive is like arguing to keep an SK alive. It's just dumb and is going to lose you the game.

[Yates]

And you'd tell the town if you had any real evidence.

Wow. You accuse me of "rolefishing" for telling any investigative role to keep their trap shut if I came up innocent - because, you know, that's how you play the game - but say that an innocent investigation SHOULD be made public, thus outing the investigator for scum prior to actually finding scum?

You're right. You are better at this game than me and playing at a different level. In the games I'm in, that's considered dumb play. Obviously everyone I play with knows less than you do. Also, you are clearly smarter than the prevailing mafia theory surrounding innocent results. Amazing.

[Yates]

and there are Traitor Variations

Yup. There are 6 variations. Look at the first variation:

The Traitor may or may not know who is in the Mafia to begin with. If not, Traitor is basically intended to act like a "bad Townie" - whereas "good Townies" try to find scum, "bad Townies" hinder the Town from finding the scum without necessarily knowing who they are. However, it is considerably more common for the Traitor to know who the scum are.
On occasion the Traitor is only told who one of the scum is.

Does this sound familiar?

I am the TRAITOR! I was given the knowledge that L. safetydance IS scum at the beginning of the game.

In that variation Traitor wins with scum, yes?

PE:

Oh my fucking god just shut up, Yates.

I know. Sucks when you get called out on your own bullshit. Maybe by not spouting bullshit you can avoid eating shit sandwiches in the future? Just a hunch.

[Yates]

A confirmed townie is useful, certainly, but you are far from it.

For now... This will change shortly. I just need you to believe I'm *ALMOST* confirmed Town.

If levi were indeed scum-aligned to begin with, there is absolutely no reason for him to claim Traitor.

Then, by this logic, there would be absolutely no reason for scum-Yates to want a potential recruit dead, right?

[Yates]

He is claiming multi-ball, it looks like.

[Yates]

To recruit him would waste an NK

This assumes no multiball.

Let's run with that theory - since I think multiball is unlikely - as pointed out earlier, if Town decides to treat Levi as conf Town, what happens during the night immediately preceding lylo? Scum recruit Levi, gain the 50% needed to avoid lynch, scum win. There is NO WAY scum want Levi dead.

[Yates]

Do explain?

What multiball is? More than 1 scum faction.

[Yates]

I was wondering where you saw a multiball claim.

Yates is a candidate for slendy, not scum. Town needs to hit scum. If we get rid of the slendy team now, town will be outnumbered

That post makes it sound like Ree is speculating there is a *possibility* that I'm on a "slendy team" vs a "scum team." When I hear the word "team" I assume more than one party is involved as opposed to a reference to being a single 3rd party. Obviously, Ree can tell you definitively if that's what he is stating...

him knowing who the team is would be a dangerous thing

He is obviously going to claim he only knew one team member. Otherwise, if he is going to play towards the Town win condition, why did he lynch fuzzy day 1? AND, why didn't he claim the full scum team Day 2?

Given on how little you decided to tunnel me earlier, I hope you can see why I wouldn't take your word for it.

That's a bad reason. There's a big difference between the information you are working with on Day 1 vs Day 3 with 3 flips. My role *will* be mod confirmed tomorrow one way or another.

[Yates]

Whom else would you be willing to lynch?

Mhork or Margie, obviously. I was leaning Mhork but Ree raises a good point about Margie's quick hammer.

I am also used to seeing Scum flip red. I don't know what the yellow flip means. If it means SD was a 3rd party, I don't know how Levi would know the identity of 3rd party as that's not how the Traitor role works. In that case, he would be lying. Lying scum? Lying Town? Remains to be seen. If we lynch Levi and he flips Traitor, we can be fairly sure that SD was scum and that's important information to have [down a scum member]. If Levi flips anything OTHER than Traitor, we have to treat his flip for what it is scum/Town/Jester.

What's an "activated IC?"

[Yates]

I'm not an Innocent Child.

Why assume a normal version of Traitor? Why wouldn't it be? You can't assume non normal roles until one flips that way. Also, Traitor has several different "normal" versions. I think it's safe to assume he's one of those.

[Yates]

I was answering your question?

I know. I was answering Sera's via your clarification.

[Yates]

Levy is bleeding truth on his claim, guys. Yates isn't. Why can't we lynch Yates?

Because I'm not the one lying and you are his likely scum buddy?

[Yates]

Why can't we lynch Yates?

Oh yeah... and then there's the fact I will be mod confirmed Town tomorrow. *shrug* It is what it is.

[Yates]

however, if you say you aren't scum and I'm not scum, then who IS scum?

I already said Mhork and/or Margie assuming you are the Traitor [which *IS* a scum role even if you want to call it "scum-lite"]. I think it's pretty weird that you knew SD was 3rd party if that ends up being the case. Then again, I can't explain your play at all this game so... *shrug*

[Yates]

in this game the traitor is NOT a scum role.

Then why would your role be called a "traitor?"

[Yates]

I might be paranoid, but I feel that might mean we're in MyLo.

You're being paranoid. We have only mislynched once in an 11 player game. It CAN'T be mylo.

[Yates]

Except if Safety is town and yellow is the label for PR's.

If you think Safety was Town, then Levi lied to get Town lynched thus making him scum. You are covered for either scenario. This is why Levi has GOT to be today's lynch.

[Yates]

He was flat out ignoring your questions

Nope dot com. I answered his questions. The only thing I haven't addressed is a question that borders on rolefishing that will be addressed tomorrow. There is nothing to be gained by having that knowledge today vs tomorrow.

[Yates]

Nah. You're wrong. Certain information is about timing.

[Yates]

You all just had to go quote him, didn't you? This was never here. You saw nothing. Zombies are (thankfully) not coming to attack us all. No worries. ❤Piggy

He did.

He does.

And why are dead people talking?

[Yates]

Yates gets lynched tomorrow if his story doesn't check out.

Fair enough. That's all I can ask.

[Yates]

Explain this.

Nope. Not today.

[Yates]

There is absolutely no protown motivation for this.

You are totally and completely wrong.

[Yates]

I am so confident on Mhork right now I'm targeting Ms M tonight. This information is important.

[Yates]

i claimed day1 but no one listened to me

Where? Where did you claim? All you said is that -L- is scum but you never said why. A claim would be, "I'm a Traitor. I can only be turned by -L-/Safety. I know that -L-/Safety is scum from my role PM. Let's lynch them so I can't be turned to scum."

What you are doing right now is nonsense.

[Yates]

and if I'm dead tomorrow, we will all know who is responsible for it

<3

[Yates]

btw hey stupid person who obviously didn't read the game and is trying to make me look bad. look at post 1134. nice try though.

What. Are. You. Talking. About.

You realize that post 1052 [the day that DAY 1 ENDED] comes before post 1134, right? And that 1134 came, in fact, on DAY 2?? And that Day 1 is not the same as Day 2?

So when you said you claimed

DAY 1

in post 1377, I wanted to know where. I think you can see why I'm confused.

[Yates]

technically it was still day 1 for me because it hadn't gone to night yet.

Are you being serious right now?
Post 1054 is important because that's the post indicating Day 2 has begun. And you had TWENTY NINE posts between 1054 and 1134. Remember those posts? The ones where you refused to claim?

[Yates]

your point is?

My point?

I DIDN"T want to claim day 1. but y'all forced me too.

YOU DIDN'T CLAIM DAY 1!!!!!! If you were TOWN you SHOULD have claimed Day 1. You didn't. You did not. Day 1 claim DID NOT HAPPEN. What happened instead? Fuzzy died instead. And you "knew" Fuzzy was Town. You could have stopped a Fuzzy Town death with a claim but didn't. You know who else knew Fuzzy was Town in advance? Scum.

My God. This is PAINFUL and should not require THIS amount of effort when OBVIOUS facts are OBVIOUS.

[Yates]

Mhork needs to die tomorrow, especially if levi flips scum.

Deal.

If Levi flips scum I will target Mhork.
If Levi flips... something else?... I will target Margie.

[Yates]

What else would he flip?

3rd Party? Slendy himself? I don't know. Based on his claim all I know is he is anti-Town.

[Yates]

Awesome. Levy was town and safety was scum. Surprise, surprise.

I think you are reading a different game from me. If you think Levi was Town I have two questions for you:
1. Why would you think Safety was scum when they both flipped shades of pink? Before you say "but Safety flipped orange!" take a look at the color mod chose for Slenderman...
2. Why would "Town" be in quotes?

SafetyDance

-

Slenderman's

princess

- lynched Day 2

leviathan93

-

"town"

traitor

- lynched Day 3

[Yates]

Also he was wasting investigative resources when he could, supposedly, be mod confirmed innocent.

Yeah. I *am* the cop, butt munch.

Investigate Levi N1 - no result crumbed

Spoiler:

I have Levi on mute.

Investigate Marangal N3 - Town

I suspect I was targeted last night to prevent the MM reveal [and create wifom] - thus confirming my X-Shot BP at least.

Sorry I'm not exactly "mod confirmed" but I wasn't going to role reveal with "no result" as my only result.

Boom.

[Yates]

What about N2?

??? There was no N2.

[Yates]

I don't get what you're asking.

Let me rephrase:

1. Why is the word "Town" in quotes for Levi but not for the other Town flips?
2. Why are both Levi's role color and Slenderman's name pink?

[Yates]

Are you sane?

I have no reason not to think I'm sane.

[Yates]

You mean other than your hard push of levi, then an abrupt 180 when he claimed traitor of all things?

Bingo.

VOTE: Mhork

Serra - you need to tell me why Mhork is Town after yesterday's play or lynch scum.

[Yates]

Lack of unvote is also telling.

[Yates]

Are you sure you were targetted Yates?

No I just assumed... I'm a little confused by your statement but we can explore that tomorrow [and make sure it gets explored!]. For now, I'm guessing there are probably two scum left and Mhork is one of them.

[Yates]

Yeah. Mhork has been at L-1 for 24 hours now. You'd think if he were Town he would have been hammered by now.

FoS: Serra, MM, Ree

[Yates]

FoS depends on Mhork actually being scum AND the other scum not bussing him already

Obviously. Which is why the "s" stands for "suspicion" and not "scum."

[Yates]

Was that a slip?

What??? Don't spoil my Town read on you, dude.

[Yates]

Meh - I'm just listing the people not voting. Though, according to Serra, my sanity is still in question...

[Yates]

Having a brain fart is not a "scum slip." Yeah, I should have left MM off the list but really the point of that post is that I was just trying to prod some action.

Look - we lynch Mhork. If he flips Town, we can reevaluate how scummy my "slip" was tomorrow.

[Yates]

We had a traitor flip

I don't think it's MYLO

Agreed. Since we had the Traitor flip, either Town is overpowered or scum is 1 short. Plus, there would be at most 2 scum left if Mhork flips Town. So at the very worst tomorrow would be mylo [3 vs 2]. AND - we could have as many as three conf Town or one conf scum in the morning. We are in good shape and would really have to screw up to lose at this point.

[Yates]

So you think there are TWO traitors in the game and I'm the other traitor? And that my play was to hunt down the other traitor to minimize the number of people potentially on my team?? Is this what you are saying?

[Yates]

PE: While we are waiting for "the kicker..."

I didn't get the impression you wanted to hunt down Levi.

Are you trolling me?

I'm saying that your request to be copped makes more sense if you're a traitor/godfather, than a BP cop.

Or - it's my way of making scum think I'm not a cop [or a threat] so I can get 1 or 2 investigation results. Just throwing that out there.

Since we've already had 1 traitor, a second one isn't THAT outlandish...

Isn't it? To use your example from earlier, what if Levi played his role "right" and hinted at being some Town protective or investigative role? If scum had targeted Levi N1, how many scum would we be facing right now? You're going to say that you think scum had the ability to add as many as TWO to their number?

I don't really like how a BP cop would fit into flavor.

This is kind of useless speculation. That said; I recently finished a game [Harry Potter] where scum had an unstoppable strongman factional ability. Based on absolutely nothing but imagination? Slendy could be the flavor of that ability.

On that note, do you have any flavor for us? Why are you BP?

Not really [I only received a couple of lines about children dissappearing and pictures being saved from a fire.] and - I assume - balance.

[Yates]

Or - it's my way of making scum think I'm not a cop [or a threat] so I can get 1 or 2 investigation results. Just throwing that out there.

I doubt requesting to be copped suggests that you're the cop...

What? I'm saying that I didn't want scum to know I was a cop. So I fake "requested" to BE copped.

[Yates]

SP would be the only other option I would consider today. And that's a fairly recent development.

In regards to the scum-boost, you realize I'd have to be playing to walk a REALLY fine line as scum, right? Do you think scum Yates would push the Levi wagon [to remove a potential ally], fake a Town result on MM [who has been after me since replacing in AND limiting the mislynch pool], and put myself in a position where I have to keep clearing Town or bus any remaining partner

that may still exist? That's a stretch a best.

I also don't think there would be 2 scum PLUS Slenderman PLUS a 3rd party. I'm still not even sure if Safety flipped scum or 3rd party. If Safety was scum, we could possibly be down to our last scum. 2 scum would make sense with a Traitor. I suppose there could be a 3rd party survivor type role left but I don't think that would affect our wincon so it's really not worth speculating about.

As far as Slendy goes, I suppose he could be a 1-shot investigation immune SK or something like that. But I know I'm BP and you are claiming you were doc protected [or jail kept or something like that] last night to explain the no kill. On this one point, I agree with SP that you would think Slendy would be unstoppable. Plus, this game would be weird if Slendy could be lynched. Imagine if the Slendy role went to a poor player and Slendy got lynched D1. Then what? So that has me thinking that if he is in the game beyond flavor, he is more likely a strongman factional ability that can't be directly targeted. That would make more sense with flavor.

I still think Mhork is our best play based on his Levi interactions.

[Yates]

trying to back it up with being unsure of sanity/forgetful.

I believe the exact excuse was "brain fart" and "trying to prod action."

[Yates]

He's still being antitown and still being an asshole.

Well...

A. I'm being the opposite of anti-Town [confirming alignments, straightening out setup spec, finding scum] and
B. "asshole" is my Town meta - usually it's scum that calls me an asshole, in fact. *shrug*
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=25862
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25071
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=23830
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=23784
C. AND you are still scum in need of lynching

[Yates]

I didn't want him to claim cop with no results. You're putting words in my mouth. I wanted him to answer for the fact that he was trying to pull investigations while being mod confirmable. That is an INCONSISTENCY.

Let's pretend for a moment that you are Town. Not only that, you are a cop with no result and a strong scum read on two people. How would you have answered your question yesterday if you were me? Claiming I would be "mod confirmed" is not an "inconsistency" it's a Town Cop under pressure playing survivalistic without claiming his role.

There are only so many ways I can tell you why I fake requested an investigation result. I didn't want scum knowing I'm a cop. I needed more investigations. Period.

As far as your "wasting Town resources" allegation goes, the chances of there being another investigator out there is pretty much zero. If by some miracle one of the remaining players DID have some way of verifying my alignment, why *wouldn't* I want to be cleared? A clear would avoid this situation right here and the deaths of either myself or the person that cleared me would mod confirm the other person. Mod confirmed roles in lylo are very very bad for scum.

@MM -

you can check my scum games. I think they all have scum QT's posted. I have *NEVER* supported a no kill. Granted, that's self meta but it is verifiable. I'm sorry if you think it's wifomy but you can only respond to wifom with wifom. Add to that the fact that scum didn't get to kill N2 AND I led the lynch on a potential ally? No kill is NOT happening.

Scum NEEDED a kill last night. Your allegation that scum would try to win by no killing is very flawed beyond that in so much as a no kill would have only helped

me

. If I'm scum with a partner that play does nothing to protect my partner and, in fact, puts them out there on the line in danger. If I'm the last scum? That play makes even less sense since it would be me against the world and I have to keep posting investigation results. How would I win in a 3 person end game against 2 people cop cleared? I'd have to fake a guilty on the last person on the last day and explain why I didn't investigate that person sooner? I'm the obvious lynch in that scenario.

Finally, I'm a cop that has not been counter claimed. I don't know what any of you are going to claim. I don't want to know until - maybe - tomorrow. That said, a cop fake claim with this many people left would have been suicide for me as scum with a simple cc.

If Mhork flips scum, the game isn't over, and I'm still alive tomorrow? Then we can have the whole "bus" conversation. I have a feeling tonight is going to resolve the Yates issue itself.

[Yates]

Uhh... Not a huge fan of the no lynch since I can't guarantee my fate. But I guess it wouldn't be the worst play in the world. I have to think about it and do some... math... and... stuff...

[Yates]

:/

You're probably right. I'm just pissed because this is the best Town role I've had since I was Egon in Ghostbusters...

[Yates]

I'd like to hear what others think of this idea.

[Yates]

Well I guess I'd be fine with a no lynch if we had to, but I'd personally like a HumanDestroyer lynch.

What's your read on SP, Mhork?

[Yates]

What's your read on SP, Mhork?

Ditto, MM.

[Yates]

What do you think, Yates?

By POE he would be my second choice. I agree that he has been "looking" Town since the end of Day 1. I also acknowledge that the only things really bothering me about him are some of his recent posts and this lingering suspicion [from the "stretch post" way early in the game] that I can't shake. Also, he's right that I'm annoyed that he has any suspicion against me. I'm trying not to let that factor in to my read on him as that could conceivably come from scum looking to discredit or legitimately paranoid Town equally.

I had a theory and was pretty sure MM was scum, which is why I checked her out last night. So, yeah. I can't lynch there. Also, last two lines on SP apply here as well.

I've been in the AJ and HD Town camp the whole game and nothing has changed there. I

would

like to see more effort out of AJ, especially this late in the game, but that doesn't make him suspicious enough for me to consider voting him today. That said:

@AJ -

want to help us out here?

Ree is a little more interesting. While I never had him as a solid scum read, I admit he did spend the first part of the game on the scummy side of Town for me. I would have to look back but there was one post he made [I think day 2?] that flipped the read on him to solid Town and I haven't really looked back. His late play seems legit Town motivated up to and including the no lynch suggestion. Could this be a scum ploy to get Town credit? Sure. But if it is, he just screwed himself if we lynch Mhork and Mhork flips scum.

[Yates]

could I put the idea of a mass claim out there? I think it might give us a good indication of whether Yates is lying or not.

I feel like if I were lying information would have already come out. There would be no reason not to counter me at this point or challenge me if you have a role that would rule out a cop or my claimed night actions. If we no lynch today, I would be on board with a mass claim tomorrow. If we lynch today? I guess I'd be less supportive but my role is already out there so... whatever.

[Yates]

You are a bullet proof cop, 1 shot, and not lying to me?

Something like that, yes. The exact nature of my "bullet proofness" remains up in the air.

[Yates]

Also, do you know whether you got shot last night?

I don't know if I got shot last night. I just assumed it. Ree has also claimed he may have been a target last night. So this matter is disputable.

[Yates]

GTFO! The plot thickens...

[Yates]

The investigative aspect has been stripped from my role but that actually make me more useful and supports Yates' cop role.

What was the "investigative aspect" of your role? If you can somehow confirm my role that would be pretty useful right about now for anyone having lingering doubts.

If you are an x-shot tracker/watcher/voyeur, for example, that tracked/watched/voyeured me to MM last night? That would be stellar.

[Yates]

I am squarely on the fence on this one. Logically, Serra raises a valid argument. If we no lynch today, you guys will probably no lynch tomorrow. There's no way scum leave me alive unless we leave open the possibility of there being a Doc this brings me right back to what I said in post 1521. I would rather NOT have claims today if we are no lynching since - you know - we aren't lynching thus the information doesn't help us.

[Yates]

L hasn't said anything period as far as I remember

Her last post was Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:31 am so it's probably safe to assume she isn't even aware of this game.

Has anyone here ever played with Safety?

Nope. I did some QUICK digging [since he's relatively new] for his scum games. HD was his scum buddy for a day in Newbie 1308 - Vanishing Act. So he may have some insight. Also Mhork is currently in Monopoly with him so he can't say squat.

Here's a quote from his scum QT in "ehobanowoof"

I think personally, we should try and knock off the most townie looking players

He mostly ignores his scum buddies in Bubble Tape [but was only in for 6 posts before being replaced]. Here's his only reference to a scum buddy:

-zipperflesh: why was he sheeping thor in the first place and now defending/agreeing with him in the same arguments? Is there a meta-clique here or is it a game strategy? It doesn't seem smart for maf to band together so obviously so early on but then everyone seems to be very experienced so is it a case of wifom?

In Vanishing Act [with HD as a buddy] he mostly ignored his scum buddy until:

VOTE: Human Destroyer

HD was tied with Telo at two votes at the time and SD's vote put HD at L-2. So +1 for bus?

In Royal Family he mostly ignores scum buddy T-Squiggs:

Do people remember T-Squiggs? Apart from being from Princetown giving you vote immunity, why is he town? Not really getting any town vibes in this game, apart from Dan.

That was a few posts before he was lynched. So, distancing post for his buddy? Though he also threw in a Town read on Town Dan for added wifom.

Short version: meta is inconsistent/inconclusive. I obviously didn't read these games and just checked for references to buddies in ISO so please do not take the above as gospel.

[Yates]

Meh. I've done that as Town before too. There is literally no case on HD outside of gut that has been presented. How do you defend against gut reads?

[Yates]

Guys, I'm V/LA for Easter weekend.

I'm not going to read too much into the SD post as all it's doing is creating wifom. If SD was a consistent busser/distancer, that would be one thing. But he does both so I feel like focusing on this post as opposed to everything else in the game is a distraction.

PE: also the above is part of my Town read on HD. I'm not saying it's impossible that he bussed both of his partners [or potential partner in Levi's case] but it's VERY unlikely. I would much prefer to focus on people that didn't want SD/Levi lynched.

[Yates]

Aj the Epic, Yates, serrapaladin - did not vote SD
Lord Mhork, leviathan93, Ms Marangal - did not vote Levi [SP hammered]

HD is not in either of those lists. SP could have hammered Levi for Town credit. That's why SP is my second choice. Mhork's evangelical attempt at keeping Levi alive is the only thing that has him ahead of SP for me. It's that simple.

[Yates]

I would rather see this play out before posting my target and result. In the mean time, I'm going to try to wrap my head around just wtf is going on.

[Yates]

Yates, explain what you mean by 'play out.'

I would like to see interactions without knowing my result or target. If I give my result right now, certain people may interact in a different way which could prevent us from finding the last scum.

[Yates]

You're worried about a godfather, correct?

No. But NOW I am!


Just kidding. That's one thing. There are obviously some other advantages as well. I mean, the person I investigated likely knows who they are and THINKS they know what result I received. So that's something nice to have in your back pocket for fact checking later.

[Yates]

What reactions are you trying to see, Yates?

The kind that aren't happening with everyone waiting on Ree and I to claim...

I targeted Ree last night. MOSTLY because I wifomed myself into thinking scum would expect me to check on Mhork or Serra and I figured I could at least clear Ree. With two conf Town? Game in the bag. If he was playing us? Found scum.

[Yates]

See, here's the problem, I baited scum by claiming Cop the night before last and I was targetted. I baited scum by saying it was pointless for scum to target anyone else and claimed to have information, a protector role and a vig kill, and I was targetted.

To be fair, on this point I agree with SP. I don't think anyone believed you could doc/bg me AND vig SP last night. Anyone with a day's experience on this site would have known you were just blowing smoke. I obviously wouldn't have announced that yesterday just in case but there it is.

Also, you should probably claim. I received another no result on you last night.

[Yates]

I have some thoughts on my no result but I'd rather not show those cards until the full claim. I was thinking Ree=JOAT but that wouldn't make sense for part of his claim.

[Yates]

Also, I was *just* a hider in Banjo Kazooie and I would get killed if I hid behind scum. Also, night actions wouldn't be redirected.

That said, if you ARE a Hider I guess a no result would make sense since "nobody was home" when I investigated.

Let me ask you this; why didn't you make it clear who you were hiding behind each night? Also, what's the point of a hider if the hider doesn't die when hiding behind scum? Also, also, what would my result have been if I had investigated SP with TWO people in his slot?

This isn't adding up.

[Yates]

Yates, do you have anything as flavorful as Ree's claim that he "shouldn't be afraid"?

Just something about finding the children and, as I said earlier, about some pictures saved from a library fire as a possible clue.

[Yates]

Well, that's not how a hider works as far as I know. At least, that's not how it worked for me. Also, I just remembered that there was some discussion by the mod about what would have happened if there was a tracker in the game here. I imagine the same would also hold true for a cop. If you keep reading there is more discussion on possible results for different roles vs the hider.

[Yates]

1701 was in response to 1699 where SP suggested Ree is claiming a mutual redirector sort of deal.

[Yates]

Yes. It just said something to the affect of involvement can not be determined.

[Yates]

Man... as much as I think you and Mhork are the last two scum, this *does* seem a little fishy.

[Yates]

Doesn't Mhork kind of fall into the confirmed scum by now?

There are likely two scum in SP, Mhork, and Ree. I guess there's a

way

outside chance MM is a GF but that isn't worth entertaining yet.

I think we pretty much have to lynch from this pool to have any shot of winning since there's no way scum is going to do us the favor of eliminating one of our potential lynch choices.