[Mini 1835] - Everything Is A Lie Mafia 4 (Abandoned)

[Leather and Lace]

/confirm

Leather

[Leather and Lace]

VOTE: The Counsel

For having more votes than us.

[Leather and Lace]

VOTE: The Counsel

For having more votes than us.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

VOTE: The Counsel

For having more votes than us.

Are you scared child?

VOTE: Leather and Lace

That you might be scum, perhaps.

Are you familiar with Bloodborne? Scum had a one person controlling two votes directly and this able to lynch solo after Varsoon said such a thing was impossible.

I consider that game bastard, and not in a good way.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

That's... unexpected, but welcomed.

VOTE: xyzzy

I can dig it, Flames.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

"Apparently" means that he believes that's he's double hated.

Yes I agree that its a useful fact for him to say that his role PM says he's double hated, and I don't find that scummy. I feel that if his thought processes were real then he should say something like "My role PM says I'm double hated" instead.

How do you know what he means?

Are you inside his head?

Why would you assume that without asking for clarification?

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

"Apparently" means that he believes that's he's double hated.

Yes I agree that its a useful fact for him to say that his role PM says he's double hated, and I don't find that scummy. I feel that if his thought processes were real then he should say something like "My role PM says I'm double hated" instead.

How do you know what he means?

Are you inside his head?

Why would you assume that without asking for clarification?

~Leather

Let me rephrase: Apparently means that he did not stop to consider that his role could be a lie.

I admit this is a weak point, as I can see the arguement for it meaning "its what I'm told and know, but may not be true". My vote isn't completely serious; I don't have really strong reads, and it's early game, so I RVS on really weak reasoning. This is why I voted without clarifying.

That's not any better.

Your still projecting your

own

thought processes on another person and basing a vote on it.

That's bad town at the very best.

[Leather and Lace]

^

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

See why clarification is important?

Assumptions are bad, m'kay?

[Leather and Lace]

^

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

which head is the leather one?

Me.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

Leather and Lace (1): The Counsel
The Counsel (0): The Counsel

ahhh

what?

Iirc Counsel has always had two votes.

Thanks wgeurts for changing up the spelling though

-Lace

[Leather and Lace]

I'm a real IC, but there's probably some other layer to my role that no one knows about, and speculating about that is probably pointless.

Question--are you the kind of IC that automatically gets confirmed at the beginning of the game, or did you ask the mod to announce you at that time?

-Lace

[Leather and Lace]

I'm a real IC, but there's probably some other layer to my role that no one knows about, and speculating about that is probably pointless.

Question--are you the kind of IC that automatically gets confirmed at the beginning of the game, or did you ask the mod to announce you at that time?

-Lace

the former.

I think you're full of shit. Hidden IC is exponentially more powerful than instant NK bait.

[Leather and Lace]

^

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

I absolutely do not trust any aspect of The Counsel.

I think they should withhold their votes ENTIRELY until their motives can be discerned.

Personally, I'd prefer to lynch them and be done with it.

[Leather and Lace]

^

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

If we have an actual dayvig, they should shoot either The Counsel or xyzzy.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

VOTE: Ircher

I bet I'm a mafia traitor framer.....

I'm only interested in lynching a toaster.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

2. That was obviously a joke.

You like jokes? I got jokes.

Q

: Why is the fire-breather's tail the last part to arrive?

A

: Because it's dragon ass!

[Leather and Lace]

^

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

Though seriously, does this game have the possibility for secret win cons?

If I get half the player base to lol, I win and the game ends.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

Being 100% serious right now --> If there is a neighborizer, they should target me. Assuming my role works as it says (which I'm heavily doubting), being in a neighborhood would increase its power 500-fold.

For realsies?

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

I kinda wish Ranger was in this game. She's like a tactical nuke of scum hunting.

I guess we're going to have to make do with... Uh...

...

...

Shit. We're doomed.

[Leather and Lace]

^

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

Random note:

I think if I should have to sign my posts, so should everyone else.

I think it's glaringly obvious which of our heads are posting at pretty much any given moment.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

I'm a real IC, but there's probably some other layer to my role that no one knows about, and speculating about that is probably pointless.

Question--are you the kind of IC that automatically gets confirmed at the beginning of the game, or did you ask the mod to announce you at that time?

-Lace

the former.

I think you're full of shit. Hidden IC is exponentially more powerful than instant NK bait.

that's true; there's probably more to my role than just that, though, so who's to say I'll actually be night killed? my point is, speculation about what that more is doesn't mean much of anything.

I'm not speculating.

I want you day vigged.

[Leather and Lace]

And some of us aren't hydras, so why should we have to sign?

~Arrow

Because me signing these posts are about as ridiculous as me signing posts under main account.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

Don't dayvig the IC.

If the IC is not on the same team as mafia, mafia will prob. attempt to shoot them.

The IC should live for a day.

If The Counsel can be day vigged, I'm cool with that.

If they can't, xyzzy needs to go.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

VOTE: The Counsel

For having more votes than us.

Are you scared child?

VOTE: Leather and Lace

That you might be scum, perhaps.

Are you familiar with Bloodborne? Scum had a one person controlling two votes directly and this able to lynch solo after Varsoon said such a thing was impossible.

I consider that game bastard, and not in a good way.

~Leather

Bloodborne was bastard, was it not? It was kinda annoying to have you guys lynch me D2 when I was trying to catch up btw.

This game is the epitome of bastard; expect anything. The Counsel is likely some kind of 3p though.

Varsoon defended that mechanic as not being the designed bastard element in the game.

And the fact this game is explicitly bastard with a 3p double voter IS ALL THE MORE REASON to lynch it.

[Leather and Lace]

Don't dayvig the IC.

If the IC is not on the same team as mafia, mafia will prob. attempt to shoot them.

The IC should live for a day.

If The Counsel can be day vigged, I'm cool with that.

If they can't, xyzzy needs to go.

~Leather

Didn't I just explain why not to dayvig the IC? Pay attention; lets not screw ourselves, 'kay?

Didn't I just tell you I don't care about your assumption on the scum's nk?

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

And some of us aren't hydras, so why should we have to sign?

~Arrow

Because me signing these posts are about as ridiculous as me signing posts under main account.

~Leather

Wow, this sounds kinda like a LAMIST tone.....

Get off it. My distaste for signing posts is well documented. I'm only doing so now as a courtesy to my generous hostess that offered to share her slot.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

@House -- I guess that counts as a moderator lie that couldnt be reasonably anticipated, but the mechanic itself wasnt really bastard according to a by letter interpretation of bastard.

Pedit: It's a fair assumption.
~Arrow

All your apologistic remarks don't change the fact that scum had an unfair advantage in the game.

I'm not interested in a repeat.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

Why does the IC need to be dayvigged and not just lynched?

Because shooting jesters and such don't allow them to fulfill their win con, no?

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

Because shooting jesters and such don't allow them to fulfill their win con, no?

~Leather

So we waste a shot instead of just voting them because you don't want them to win? Town are able to win with Jesters/Lynchers right? Correct me if I'm wrong please.

They count against the living majority, sparky.

[Leather and Lace]

^

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

Explain more

If you don't get why town has to maintain a living majority, which makes third party players an inherent threat to town by virtue of the fact they're not town...

I don't think I can help you.

[Leather and Lace]

Explain more

If you don't get why town has to maintain a living majority, which makes third party players an inherent threat to town by virtue of the fact they're not town...

I don't think I can help you.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

I'll try one last thing...

Scum + 3P = Town == Town loss

Get it now?

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

Which still doesn't explain why to dayvig them

Why would scum shoot third party when THEY HELP SCUM?

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

So what's the difference when we lynch them vs dayvig when THEY'RE STILL DEAD EITHER WAY?

The way they die matters!

Ask any Jester.

You're either stupid as hell out scum of you don't get that.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

Fucking troll.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

I'm a day vig.

Votes: cakez

Please shoot xyzzy kthx.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

shooting me would be bad and unproductive. I am better for the town alive.

If you have any desire for credibility, tell us how.

[Leather and Lace]

shooting me would be bad and unproductive. I am better for the town alive.

If you have any desire for credibility, tell us how.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

I think it's better if I wait until at least tomorrow to go into it any further than that.

An IC with night actions?

Sure, that's totally believable.

Riddle me this, are you town or benevolent 3P? No takebacks.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

Flames, I legit thought you were trolling.

2 years and you don't know what a Jester is?

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Jester

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

have there been setups where a jester can win with the town? I could conceivably see that being a thing here.

No. If the jester is alive at the end, they simply lose.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

This account vote and voice is in hands of town but there is a someone else who can put invisible votes using the name of us (hence the second vote). We know the identity of this man cause somehow we watched him doing it; This information will be published if a majority of players request for it.

We confirm that the counsel has no alignment by its own. but if it can be vigged or lynched (that Is not a part of my knowledge) town will loose one vote - hence mafia will have an easier life - , We will loose a way for communicating (to hint what we know without outing ourselves) and another utility; while you won't get any information out of the flip as the counsel is just a proxy account and has no alignment on its own.

This thing is Patches 2.0 and needs to die.

[Leather and Lace]

This account vote and voice is in hands of town but there is a someone else who can put invisible votes using the name of us (hence the second vote). We know the identity of this man cause somehow we watched him doing it; This information will be published if a majority of players request for it.

We confirm that the counsel has no alignment by its own. but if it can be vigged or lynched (that Is not a part of my knowledge) town will loose one vote - hence mafia will have an easier life - , We will loose a way for communicating (to hint what we know without outing ourselves) and another utility; while you won't get any information out of the flip as the counsel is just a proxy account and has no alignment on its own.

This thing is Patches 2.0 and needs to die.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

If a Jester gets lynched and fulfills his win condition he still wins with whatever alignment won the game. Are you thinking that it ends the game? Cause it doesn't.

I don't exist to assist third party win conditions.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

So basically you only want town to win and will waste a dayvig because of it.

Killing third party is NOT wasting a vig, and you're damned right i only want town to win.

farside please for the love of mafia gods shoot The Counsel.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

So you want him to shoot IC but also the Counsel.

uhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Try and keep up, sparky. The Counsel admitted to not being aligned with town.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=66605

ISO Patches.

The Counsel = Patches

Kill The Counsel

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

You didn't even read our post ; did you?

Sure I did.

It sounded like this:

I will post when I am addressed, and perhaps at other times. I do not plan, I simply act. For now, I observe the fact that I am but a puppet, a proxy. While my master still retains their voice, there is scarcely reason for myself to steal the proverbial stage. For now there is no message they wish to send without attributing their own name to it, excepting messages on the topic of my own existence.

[Leather and Lace]

You didn't even read our post ; did you?

Sure I did.

It sounded like this:

I will post when I am addressed, and perhaps at other times. I do not plan, I simply act. For now, I observe the fact that I am but a puppet, a proxy. While my master still retains their voice, there is scarcely reason for myself to steal the proverbial stage. For now there is no message they wish to send without attributing their own name to it, excepting messages on the topic of my own existence.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

Someone effectively has THREE votes as long as The Counsel lives.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

Vote for the tawniest players in game (or choose a pool or other ways for that if you can) and I will hand over the voting power to them as well

I'm sure you're aware the only person is trust to vouch for your beneficence is myself.

Seeing is believing.

So, YOU determine MY motives and make your OWN decision.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

as I said the second vote is in the hands of someone else.

Who?

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

In his eyes if you're not explicitly town you need to die apparently

Why do you say this like it's a bad thing?

[Leather and Lace]

In his eyes if you're not explicitly town you need to die apparently

Why do you say this like it's a bad thing?

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

Whenever I make a proposal in this game, I need to do it using democracy and fair voting. I proposed the usage of my ability, so it must be voted by people.

For the second voter, as I said I know that information. I need a majority requesting for the data to expose them.

I'll play your silly game... for now.

Everyone

: We need to democratically demand the name of The Counsel's second vote because it behooves us to know who has how many votes.

Accordingly, we also need to demand to know WHO THE COUNSEL IS A PROXY FOR, for the same reason.
---

That make you happier, you neutral machination from hell?

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

Someone effectively has THREE votes as long as The Counsel lives.

~Leather

No, from what I know they will be able to use the public vote like us.

as I said the second vote is in the hands of someone else.

There is nothing stopping you from adding that person to your counsel, efficient making you a triple voter, especially considering you know their identity.

Where potential exists, all risks must be analyzed.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

Someone effectively has THREE votes as long as The Counsel lives.

~Leather

No, from what I know they will be able to use the public vote like us.

as I said the second vote is in the hands of someone else.

There is nothing stopping you from adding that person to your counsel, effectively making you a triple voter, especially considering you know their identity.

Where potential exists, all risks must be analyzed.

~Leather

EBWOP

[Leather and Lace]

You didn't even read our post ; did you?

Sure I did.

It sounded like this:

I will post when I am addressed, and perhaps at other times. I do not plan, I simply act. For now, I observe the fact that I am but a puppet, a proxy. While my master still retains their voice, there is scarcely reason for myself to steal the proverbial stage. For now there is no message they wish to send without attributing their own name to it, excepting messages on the topic of my own existence.

~Leather

Please, go ISO Patches. Look at the damage Nahdia did with her "neutral proxy".

Then demand names!

[Leather and Lace]

You didn't even read our post ; did you?

Sure I did.

It sounded like this:

I will post when I am addressed, and perhaps at other times. I do not plan, I simply act. For now, I observe the fact that I am but a puppet, a proxy. While my master still retains their voice, there is scarcely reason for myself to steal the proverbial stage. For now there is no message they wish to send without attributing their own name to it, excepting messages on the topic of my own existence.

~Leather

Please, go ISO Patches. Look at the damage Nahdia did with her "neutral proxy".

Then demand names!

~Leather

(See what happens when you can't edit posts? Lol...)

[Leather and Lace]

Democracy is a part of this Counsel. Its not my choice to be so conservative. Make up your minds.

I told everything with absolute honesty. for confirming I have no control over the second vote

UNVOTE:
UNVOTE:

If you do everything so democratically why did you vote me of your own accord? Why did you unvote unprompted?

~Leather

Hydra slip

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

As far as I'm concerned, we are at an impasse.

There are two conclusions from my perspective... add me to the counsel so I can judge it for myself since I am the one demanding answers, or kill it.

I don't care which.

~Leather

[Leather and Lace]

3p is almost always detrimental to town--because most of the time they provide a distraction that town simply can't afford. They create confusion (and take away our mislynches) and House is right, their presence doesn't help us at all but it does help out scum.

I'm interested in seeing how benevolent the Counsel is. If as in the previous games it's controlled by the dead thread then I still don't know if they would be useful alive, because they can fuck up VCs.

Counsel, we are voting

yea

to exposing the secret controller of your second vote.

And House, you don't have to sign your posts. I hate it too

[Leather and Lace]

Also please consider that in EIAL 2 the Jester and Town both met their wincons but the game was declared a draw.

[Leather and Lace]

wg won't put patches in this game.

Are you seriously playing outguess the mod in a bastard game?

Seriously?

Furthermore, until the true motives of the proxy can be determined, any information they provide is suspect.

I want the thing to either be killified or determined to be controlled by town, period.

I'm perfectly okay with it being the former.

[Leather and Lace]

its not like something which is putten here for auto win purposes.

And you...

Your completely gloating over the fact that The Counsel, which already controls two votes, had the potential to become a

triple

voter, which I pointed out...

Someone effectively has THREE votes as long as The Counsel lives.

~Leather

No, from what I know they will be able to use the public vote like us.

as I said the second vote is in the hands of someone else.

There is nothing stopping you from adding that person to your counsel, efficient making you a triple voter, especially considering you know their identity.

Where potential exists, all risks must be analyzed.

~Leather

Here.

FoS:R&L

[Leather and Lace]

its not like something which is putten here for auto win purposes.

And you...

You're completely glossing over the fact that The Counsel, which already controls two votes, has the potential to become a

triple

voter, which I pointed out...

Someone effectively has THREE votes as long as The Counsel lives.

~Leather

No, from what I know they will be able to use the public vote like us.

as I said the second vote is in the hands of someone else.

There is nothing stopping you from adding that person to your counsel, efficient making you a triple voter, especially considering you know their identity.

Where potential exists, all risks must be analyzed.

~Leather

Here.

FoS:R&L

EBWOP

[Leather and Lace]

This...

wg won't put patches in this game. he was in that game as well. he understands how unpleasant was to play against it. plus this whole thing seems like that slot is in game to put wifom inside the gam

Is playing "outguess the mod". You are making assumptions about what wg "

won't do

".

I quoted a post from Patches that is dead on point with The Counsel. I'm not guessing SHIT.

[Leather and Lace]

We confirm that the counsel has no alignment by its own. but if it can be vigged or lynched (that Is not a part of my knowledge) town will loose one vote - hence mafia will have an easier life - , We will loose a way for communicating (to hint what we know without outing ourselves) and another utility; while you won't get any information out of the flip as the counsel is just a proxy account and has no alignment on its own.

I will post when I am addressed, and perhaps at other times. I do not plan, I simply act. For now, I observe the fact that I am but a puppet, a proxy. While my master still retains their voice, there is scarcely reason for myself to steal the proverbial stage. For now there is no message they wish to send without attributing their own name to it, excepting messages on the topic of my own existence.

They're fucking sisters.

[Leather and Lace]

and explain your three vote theory

It's not theory

The owner of the counsel has a vote. = 1
Counsel has a vote. = 1
Counsel's private manipulator head a vote. =1

Without the manipulator's cooperation, the owner of The Counsel controls two votes. If The Counsel recruits the manipulator (mafia traitor, hello?), The owner of The Counsel will effectively control both of The Counsel's votes as well as their own.

Now HERE is my theory...

The owner of The Counsel is scum.
The Counsel is a neutral third party account owned by scum.
The manipulator is a mafia traitor.

[Leather and Lace]

They are both proxy accounts with a vote who don't want to claim who is their owner yeah

your point?

The Counsel is a

double double

voter!

[Leather and Lace]

Idk Shiro, but FA is smarter than this.

[Leather and Lace]

They are both proxy accounts with a vote who don't want to claim who is their owner yeah

your point?

Here a question for you... Why are YOU not paranoid of The Counsel after Bloodborne?

[Leather and Lace]

The owner of the counsel has a vote. = 1
Counsel has a vote. = 1
Counsel's private manipulator head a vote. =1

that was exactly my point. 2 extra scum votes at game start is

rude

-

not a lie

and I want to believe no one will revive bloodborne bullshit anymore.

Its more likely that 1 extra vote is in hands of town and 1 is in hands of scum if the claim about the second one of it being in others hand is legit

So lynch The Counsel to keep accountability for votes.

[Leather and Lace]

The owner of the counsel has a vote. = 1
Counsel has a vote. = 1
Counsel's private manipulator head a vote. =1

that was exactly my point. 2 extra scum votes at game start is

rude

-

not a lie

and I want to believe no one will revive bloodborne bullshit anymore.

Its more likely that 1 extra vote is in hands of town and 1 is in hands of scum if the claim about the second one of it being in others hand is legit

Also, rude is well within the parameter of bastard.

[Leather and Lace]

Hidden votes are very much lying because the truth of where people stand is hidden.

[Leather and Lace]

I will never stop pushing for The Counsel's lynch until:

1) I know who controls The Counsel.
2) I know who controls the hidden vote.
3) I know the alignments of the above

-or-

4) One of The Counsel or us is dead.

No arguing or assurances will change that.

[Leather and Lace]

go reread the bloodbourne

I screamed to lynch patches day 1 before it gets to late cause it was making sense as scum flavor wise and role wise - and that slot screwed that town up.

I did!

That is why I'm so curious as to why you're not paranoid of Patches 2.0!

[Leather and Lace]

I am trying to think if its a good approach in this as well or not by considering the stuff they said about how they operate and to write down possible theories about the whole interactions.

No. That's bullshit.

Patches snowed people with their benevolent sounding demeanor and promises of information as well.

The Counsel IS Patches.

[Leather and Lace]

pedit : I am, I just don't think its patches 2 cause I don't expect that shit from wg at all.

I do. It's a fine mechanic and completely fair game as long as the game is advertised to be bastard.

I wouldn't fault the mod at all because he straight up told us.

[Leather and Lace]

Also, wgeurts dipped out on page 120, before the voting shitfest began.

He may well be unaware of all the drama and hard feelings around/about Patches.

[Leather and Lace]

I'm considering adopting this color for shiggles.

[Leather and Lace]

Don't dayvig the IC.

If the IC is not on the same team as mafia, mafia will prob. attempt to shoot them.

The IC should live for a day.

If The Counsel can be day vigged, I'm cool with that.

If they can't, xyzzy needs to go.

~Leather

Didn't I just explain why not to dayvig the IC? Pay attention; lets not screw ourselves, 'kay?

Didn't I just tell you I don't care about your assumption on the scum's nk?

~Leather

No you did not...

Of course I did, in 153.

Repeating myself ones it quite possibly, does it not?

[Leather and Lace]

Don't dayvig the IC.

If the IC is not on the same team as mafia, mafia will prob. attempt to shoot them.

The IC should live for a day.

If The Counsel can be day vigged, I'm cool with that.

If they can't, xyzzy needs to go.

~Leather

Didn't I just explain why not to dayvig the IC? Pay attention; lets not screw ourselves, 'kay?

Didn't I just tell you I don't care about your assumption on the scum's nk?

~Leather

No you did not...

Of course I did, in 153.

Repeating myself infers it quite plainly, does it not?

Fucking EBWOP.

[Leather and Lace]

As far as I'm concerned, we are at an impasse.

There are two conclusions from my perspective... add me to the counsel so I can judge it for myself since I am the one demanding answers, or kill it.

I don't care which.

~Leather

How do you know you can be "added" to the Counsel?

Are you really the type of player that needs to be spoonfed?

[Leather and Lace]

I can make other livings join the counsel.

[Leather and Lace]

Ah OK, I missed that.

I'm pretty sure the Counsel is comprised of all dead players plus Wgeurts himself. This is what happened in the previous games of the series.

So if you want to join the Counsel, you have to die (That's my theory, anyway)

That's nice, now give me a Yea on knowing the private voter please.

[Leather and Lace]

Vote for the towniest players -> they get lynched -> they get into the dead thread (make livings join Counsel) -> they control the Counsel -> they get Counsel's voting power

If your theory is correct, do you think The Counsel is more likely to be controlled (chaired) by town or scum?

After all, the chairman votes autonomously, so I doubt that's the mod.

[Leather and Lace]

SirCakes
Shos
Davsto

Leather and Lace

BulletNLynchproof

Rylai & Lina

Yume
farside22
Flames682
Vedith
KuroiXHF
Ircher
xyzzy

Everyone

: Give me a Yea on knowing the private voter or an amazing reason why we shouldn't.

[Leather and Lace]

xyzzy, I suggest you claim it before i get my majority.

[Leather and Lace]

SirCakes

Shos
Davsto

Leather and Lace

BulletNLynchproof

Rylai & Lina

Yume

farside22

Flames682
Vedith
KuroiXHF
Ircher
xyzzy

Everyone

: Give me a Yea on knowing the private voter or an amazing reason why we shouldn't.

[Leather and Lace]

Like, even if it is scum controlled now, we can force it to either add enough townfolk to make it town controlled or kill it if it doesnt cooperate.

The glaring flaw in your theory is that they require a public consensus before adding town.

Now just what do you think is going to happen the second they a townie?

[Leather and Lace]

Now just what do you think is going to happen the second they a townie?

I don't understand this question.

I really have no idea how they can add someone or whatever. If that slot get confirmed / or not confirmed but real voices soon It can be treated like any other slots in the game in a lesser degree.

~Lina

Not the subject to troll me on.

The second town is chosen to be added, scum will kill them that night.

[Leather and Lace]

cant we decide a pool to avoid that?

Sure, but it won't stop me from screaming for their lynch.

Also, the pool just gives scum a list of the most widely townread players in one nice, compact post.

How anti-town is that?

[Leather and Lace]

The Counsel might just be wgeurts
But yeah if someone is controlling them they need to out

VOTE: the counsel

you semi sheeped leather pov in the matter but you want the slot lynched before outing the info they promised. This is hypocritical as fuck

~Lina

The vote was for pressure so they'd out the info.
That's why I just unvoted.

Who's scum cakez?

The Counsel. Shoot them.

[Leather and Lace]

I never considered "townreads" as a resources that must be kept hidden

Thats stupid way to play mafia. Town must be transparent with their reads as thats the only thing that matters for their team members. In all game threw I saw in all my games so far main reason for town loss was the secrecy of the reads.

There's a difference between players being open about their reads (which they can still hedge on for good reason such as compelling cooperation from scum), and putting out their actual strongest townreads.

You should know better than this

[Leather and Lace]

Clarification = info on who's behind the slot
Currently my scum reads are xyzzy and BNL

Are you saying you have no interest in The Counsel outing who privately controls their second vote?

I need that intent stated explicitly in order to believe it.

[Leather and Lace]

first stop evaluating my play

I meant stop evaluating my intelligence over play. You have all the right to question my line of think and pov.

it just started to feel your harassing me.

Not my intention at all.

When something is clear to me, I find it difficult to comprehend how others can't see it because I'm NOT the brightest crayon the box.

Also...

If every slot are transparent with their reads the strongest townreads are outed eventually.

There are good reasons to keep your strongest townreads close to the vest or make scum think they are snowing you.

If you are faux townreading scum to get their cooperation bussing, you will betray that by not putting them in the pool.

Sorry...

[Leather and Lace]

Because shooting jesters and such don't allow them to fulfill their win con, no?

~Leather

So we waste a shot instead of just voting them because you don't want them to win? Town are able to win with Jesters/Lynchers right? Correct me if I'm wrong please.

Newsflash for you: Town loses a death due to the mafia nk. Lynching jesters does not help town.

I think it's better if I wait until at least tomorrow to go into it any further than that.

This 100%.

Also,
VOTE: Flame for being difficult.

Democracy is a part of this Counsel. Its not my choice to be so conservative. Make up your minds.

I told everything with absolute honesty. for confirming I have no control over the second vote

UNVOTE:
UNVOTE:

Will you pls vote Leather for wanting us to waste a dayvig shot?

So let me get this straight.

You agree with us that we shouldn't be wasting mislynches on 3p.
You call out Flame and vote him for being difficult in arguing with us about wasting mislynches.
Then you want Counsel to vote us for saying that we shouldn't be wasting mislynches and instead that we should be shooting 3p.

?????????????

[Leather and Lace]

1) Why not? I've already pointed out that 3p is simply a distraction for town. In EIAL 2 we indeed wasted mislynches on 3p.
2) We have reason to believe that there is more than one dayvig shot out there.

[Leather and Lace]

The Counsel appears to have some pro-town ability and lynching it does not look like it will help you.

This is bullshit.

The Counsel enables two hidden votes.

Anyone that seriously wants transparency in reads should want that slot dead on those ground alone.

The owner of the counsel is a double-voter, as is the private manipulator of the second vote.

Anyone that wants a fair voting process should want The Counsel dead on those grounds alone.

The Counsel has the power to recruit the private vote manipulator, effectively giving The Counsel access to four votes.

WHY DO WE NOT WANT TO KILL THIS THING?

[Leather and Lace]

To Hell with the IC, shoot or lynch The Counsel.

[Leather and Lace]

Clarification = info on who's behind the slot
Currently my scum reads are xyzzy and BNL

Are you saying you have no interest in The Counsel outing who privately controls their second vote?

I need that intent stated explicitly in order to believe it.

I am interested
They said the dead/wguerts controlled the account didn't they?

They did not.

That was about previous games. Idc about previous games. I'm playing this one.

[Leather and Lace]

SirCakes

Shos
Davsto

Leather and Lace

BulletNLynchproof

Rylai & Lina

Yume

farside22

Flames682
Vedith
KuroiXHF

Ircher

xyzzy

Everyone

: Give me a Yea on knowing the private voter or an amazing reason why we shouldn't.

Need one more to get that name.

[Leather and Lace]

Yea to knowing the private voter

A majority has been reached.

[Leather and Lace]

I also believe The Counsel is scum controlled because requiring consensus on releasing pro-town information eats up a lot of day and sidelines town from scumhunting.

OTOH, I can't help but think that town would have spoken up and owned the vote so I'm guessing either The Counsel or the other private vote is controlled by 3P and the other is scum.

[Leather and Lace]

Patches is not the only time I ran into 3P that tried to pass themselves off as pro-town.

In another game when I first joined, eyestott was 3P acting the same way The Counsel. Offering information and pandering to town.

[Leather and Lace]

Also, I don't think The Counsel can be lynched, if their forced self-vote is any indication.

It would take another vote on them and a VC to confirm. If that's the case, the dayvig may be our only option for killing them.

[Leather and Lace]

Also, I don't think The Counsel can be lynched, if their forced self-vote is any indication.

It would take another vote on them and a VC to confirm. If that's the case, the dayvig may be our only option for killing them.

Would you stop suggesting that already? Again, we're not wasting shots on your stupid assumption due to past poor interactions with unknown slots.

Patches is not the only time I ran into 3P that tried to pass themselves off as pro-town.

In another game when I first joined, eyestott was 3P acting the same way The Counsel. Offering information and pandering to town.

Dammit, went to House to dig it up and saw that terrible post.

[Leather and Lace]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=60196

My mistake, he was mafia.

Acted much like The Counsel though.

[Leather and Lace]

Now, my question to Leather is -- What will this tunnel accomplish, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE WRONG?

That's ready to answer.

1) It will make everyone accountable for their own views, REGARDLESS OF THE ALIGNMENTS OF THE OWNER AND SECOND PRIVATE VOTER.

2) It will remove two double-voters REGARDLESS OF THE ALIGNMENTS OF THE OWNER AND SECOND PRIVATE VOTER.

3) It will pacify me, REGARDLESS OF THE ALIGNMENTS OF THE OWNER AND SECOND PRIVATE VOTER.

There's, three excellent reasons to kill The Counsel.

Now, I have a question for you!

[Leather and Lace]

Pressure voting Leather wouldn't be a bad idea either considering they are acting 85% Anti-Town right now.

Why should we feel pressured when any wagon we receive in response to this post is formed on the pretense of pressure?

This feels very much like scum busywork.

[Leather and Lace]

1) Moot point. The Counsel has already stated that they will follow any voting restrictions, wont hammer, and any info they give has to be democratically determined. That holds them accountable as we can autolynch them if they go back on their word.

Not moot. They only control ONE hidden vote, which gives scum a double-teaming as long as they're alive.

Also, The Counsel's very existence counts against living majority for town.

[Leather and Lace]

2) And what does that accomplish? Being a doublevoter as anti-town is super beneficial, yes, but there is good reason to believe that not both votes are in the hand of an anti-town player. A town doublevoter is still positive town utility even if very minor.

You're arguing both sides!

If we place a voting restriction, they presumably can't double vote. If we don't, we have a 3P double-voter.

Period.

[Leather and Lace]

3) Horrible reason; the noose can keep you quiet.

Not if it's controlled by the dead!

[Leather and Lace]

1) Moot point. The Counsel has already stated that they will follow any voting restrictions, wont hammer, and any info they give has to be democratically determined. That holds them accountable as we can autolynch them if they go back on their word.

Not moot. They only control ONE hidden vote, which gives scum a double-voter as long as they're alive.

Also, The Counsel's very existence counts against living majority for town.

EBWOP

[Leather and Lace]

Considering how little we've done so far (primarily cuz of Leather.....)

Funny, the way I see it, I'm the only one that's done squat this far.

I don't you campaigning for the death of a non-townie. I don't see you petitioning for votes to get a private double-voter outed.

What HAVE you done aside from being an obstructionist?

[Leather and Lace]

SirCakes

Shos
Davsto

Leather and Lace

BulletNLynchproof

Rylai & Lina

Yume

farside22

Flames682

Vedith
KuroiXHF

Ircher

xyzzy

Everyone

: Give me a Yea on knowing the private voter or an amazing reason why we shouldn't.

Majority achieved. The Counsel, provide that name please.

[Leather and Lace]

My guess is BNL, btw.

[Leather and Lace]

side note: I can't help but read "BNL" as "Barenaked Ladies"

Ladies look lovely in Leather and Lace.

Spoiler:

Yes, I know you mean the band.... If I had a million dollars for every time I that song... I'd be rich!

[Leather and Lace]

Interesting that it's only once you get support in voting us that you suddenly remember that you wanted to pressure us.

I think it's incredibly strange that you would ask the Counsel, confirmed non-town, to pressure vote us, when you weren't even doing so yourself. That seems very fake to me.

[Leather and Lace]

Someone effectively has THREE votes as long as The Counsel lives.

~Leather

No, from what I know they will be able to use the public vote like us.

as I said the second vote is in the hands of someone else.

There is nothing stopping you from

adding that person to your counsel

, efficient making you a triple voter, especially considering you know their identity.

Where potential exists, all risks must be analyzed.

~Leather

what do you mean by this?

Keep reading. Already answered.

Sigh...

Unsubscribing from main.

[Leather and Lace]

Vote for the towniest players -> they get lynched -> they get into the dead thread (make livings join Counsel) -> they control the Counsel -> they get Counsel's voting power

We can add "living" players to the counsel. You shouldn't use the vote tag or hint the moderator in any manner that you want to vote your desired town counselors for real. The votes you submit to counsel might be in the form of read lists.

The dead counselors may continue the game using this slot.

This post Leather

Wrong.

That post does not say they are controlled by the moderator. That post is asking players not to vote them.

Huge difference.

The Counsel already admitted they were a proxy account being used to keep from outing their main when giving info.

Hidden source + multiple private votes = scum mechanics.

[Leather and Lace]

Also I think L&L is possibly scumtheatering with them.

Totally.

You should lynch my buddy and then come gunning for me toMorrow.

[Leather and Lace]

Flame strikes me the most as scum rn.

Keather is more likely stubborn town (who drives people up a 25-mile long wall...).

Yet you're voting me, lol.

[Leather and Lace]

They have 128 posts dude. 128.

That's because I'm DOING SHIT!

[Leather and Lace]

counsel should tell us who they are and who has the other vote

That's what I've been doing, but you want to receive the benefits of my efforts while also casting shade for the work it took to get here?

Screw that dude.

[Leather and Lace]

Flame strikes me the most as scum rn.

Keather is more likely stubborn town (who drives people up a 25-mile long wall...).

Yet you're voting me, lol.

I see no reason to change my vote rn considering how little has been done.

Posture all you want, it only makes the d1 lynch all the more obvious.

[Leather and Lace]

^ Scum busting ass defending their asset.

[Leather and Lace]

Ircher you were in Bloodborne, you defending Patches 2.0 in an advertised BASTARD GAME makes zero sense from a town perspective.

[Leather and Lace]

Ircher knows first hand what kind of chaos anonymous multivoters are capable of.

For him to have zero concern about The Counsel reeks of scum.

[Leather and Lace]

Thats why Bloodborne was bad --> Town made awful decisions.

The worst of which was NOT LYNCHING PATCHES.

[Leather and Lace]

Ircher knows first hand what kind of chaos anonymous multivoters are capable of.

For him to have zero concern about The Counsel reeks of scum.

Again, no I dont really.

While my slot existed during D1, I was V/LA pretty much all of that day. Then you guys quick-lynched me for trying to catch up on D2.

Serious sauce?

Then maybe you should read what happened there before you scumread for not wanting a repeat of it.

Cliff's Notes is that Nahdia solo lynched multiple town ftw.

[Leather and Lace]

I can't tell if this is Ircher being Ircher or being scum
Leaning the latter

Explain.

You are, I do believe, familiar w/ my meta. The big Q really is how natural do my posts read as? (Considering my meta....)

That reach out looks town.

Cakes' response I'm not that happy with.

[Leather and Lace]

1. Argument from Repetition --> Repeated saying that The Counsel is controlled by scum doesnt it make it more (or less) true.
2. Confirmation Bias --> No matter how much you believe that The Counsel is Patches 2.0 doesn't make it more or less true.

I'm repeating it because people are simply scrolling what I'm saying and those familiar with Patches are discounting the very real dangers that hidden multivoters represent.

Do you really think town is going to get access to up to four votes simply by recruiting one person?

No. That smells like group scum + traitor. Traitor can use their vote to make themselves known to group scum, then be recruited.

[Leather and Lace]

Do you think that Wguerts would include such a swingy role in a setup such as this?

Absolutely. As I said, he dipped out before Nahdia did her damage, so he may be unaware of how badly hidden multivoters can break a game.

The Counsel in this game is already fundamentally different from past games from the way people have talked about those past games. That's because it's being controlled directly by a player.

Lyncher could potientially be pro-town; you never know.

You're still talking functionality. I'm talking living majority.

As far as living majority goes, Lyncher is NOT pro-town.

Email links betray me too.

[Leather and Lace]

Whats your thoughts concerning Rylai and Lina?

I have one theory I'm not willing to share at this time, but as far as their alignment, I'm not yet able to read them.

[Leather and Lace]

You know, what if this game worked like "Vote for Town"?

The mechanics of the game could be lies too after all.

Maybe lynched players join the Counsel.

The Counsel has no alignment, based on their claim.

Doesn't sound like town can win that way at all.

[Leather and Lace]

The second vote was controlled by "Shos".

counsel should tell us who they are and who has the other vote

VOTE: The Counsel
I think the counsel is managed by scum. anything that has been said here is either wifom, bullshit, or empty promises. at best, this can keep us wifoming instead of actually scumhunting and playing the game. already it poofed 15 pages of nothingness.

I want this gone.

Why should I believe you?

[Leather and Lace]

The second vote was controlled by "Shos".

counsel should tell us who they are and who has the other vote

VOTE: The Counsel
I think the counsel is managed by scum. anything that has been said here is either wifom, bullshit, or empty promises. at best, this can keep us wifoming instead of actually scumhunting and playing the game. already it poofed 15 pages of nothingness.

I want this gone.

Why should I believe you?

@The Counsel

[Leather and Lace]

Actually, shos didn't speak up until well after the majority was reached... So there is that.

[Leather and Lace]

Lol

[Leather and Lace]

So, apparently The Counsel is indeed lynchable.

Useful information to have, at any rate.

[Leather and Lace]

I'm good with a shos lynch.

[Leather and Lace]

Leather and Lace (3): Ircher, xyzzy
The Counsel (1): The Counsel, shos

Don't worry, there is a post in the hydra chat about it. A few, actually.

I'm not going to vote without my partner.

[Leather and Lace]

They have 128 posts dude. 128.

That's because I'm DOING SHIT!

counsel should tell us who they are and who has the other vote

That's what I've been doing, but you want to receive the benefits of my efforts while also casting shade for the work it took to get here?

Screw that dude.

I don't know what you're talking about.

You have spammed the thread like shit. you are doiong shit, yes, but SHIT does not need to be done, ANY SORT OF SCUMHUNTING does.
there is literally no content. at all. in the last 11 pages or so.

Just because you don't like my scumhunting doesn't mean I haven't been doing it.

In fact, you don't like it because it outed you.

VOTE: shos

Take your hidden double voting ass to Hell.

[Leather and Lace]

So was the council in the start of the game or no?

Of course it was, We crossfired RVS votes.

Like, right off the bat.

[Leather and Lace]

What If I hand you an scum? What if I just did? That is the core meaning of scum hunting.

Means nothing if you're third party, which you already admitted being.

If you can't tell, I don't trust you.

[Leather and Lace]

If anyone has a objections to this step forward. If not help us to purify this proxy.

I object.

Not to the subject of your vote, but you're use of it.

Regardless of your alignment, votes should not be used extraneously.

If you want my trust, unvote and vote on your main.

That is not TELLING us who you are.

[Leather and Lace]

outing Shos was too easy for town. I don't feel ok with the whole interactions , if you get what I mean.

If they manipulated a vote, they need to die, period.

It's entirely possible that scum abused mechanics that were meant to be used in a more subtle manner and told on themselves before they could make proper utility of the vote.

-or-

More than one person has access to it and the second vote will lay dormant until an opportune moment to swing a mislynch at a crucial time.

In that scenario, The Counsel remains a threat regardless of their overt beneficence.

That's a matter for another day, however. shos needs to swing and I need to break out of this stupid paranoia tunnel.

[Leather and Lace]

What I don't get is the amount of crap I'm catching for trying to be productive while nobody else really does anything, and being blamed for the lack of productivity by others.

Hello! This is not a conference call! Multiple people can be doing different things at one time!

Stop using me as a scapegoat for your nonproductivity and DO SOMETHING.

[Leather and Lace]

Hey, I've already got a list of four people I'm okay voting for and "X" amount I won't posted in my Hydra chat.

Just because I'm not publicizing them doesn't mean I'm only doing one thing.

[Leather and Lace]

Here's an appetizer though... The Counsel is listed in neither.

[Leather and Lace]

Also, I for one didn't see any buffs or boons listed in my role pm for lynching the mod, but apparently multiple players saw benefit in the attempt.

Scum there, perhaps?

[Leather and Lace]

fuck me this is a lot to catch up on

grrrrrrrr

All for you, baby.

We did it all for you.

[Leather and Lace]

anyway, whats your opinion on the points I mentioned about SC and Ircher?

I've been scumreading Ircher for a while, but I need to go back over his posts and reevaluate.

I'm down with sorting double hated tomorrow, too late in the day toDay.

[Leather and Lace]

Also I think I figured which slot controls the talking from The Counsel

So did lilith but I wasn't quite sure.

[Leather and Lace]

I think... I'm actually good with calling Ircher town.

[Leather and Lace]

Shos is a good vote too but I prefer BNL

This does nothing to improve my read on you.

[Leather and Lace]

seeing 437, I'm thinking the counsel is probably managed by townies after all.
VOTE: L&L

No shit, Sherlock. Why do you think I stopped bitching about them?

You can thank me for sorting them any time.

[Leather and Lace]

UNVOTE: UNVOTE:

We can't use the a majority for the vote of this account as if the majority is already willed to vote someone, They are already lynched.

For that we won't vote in this day phase at all

, Till this account get a publicized voice. Is that acceptable for you?

If this account was voting it would vote Shos.

This is how I will address our will for vote during this day phase.

This is actually where I started townreading TC.

[Leather and Lace]

ok so...I've fully read up.
it appears I...need to "explain myself".

well.

considering there is nothing to explain (I deny controlling the counsel, so...is there anything?), and the deadline is short, I guess I'll go ahead and claim.
I'm a tracker. I have another passive ability and another 1-shot ability which I don't want to disclose, as it wouldn't help town in shit.

There is also 1-word flavor and a quote from some french guy.

this is fake as hell

Just so we're on the same page, what's so fake about it?

[Leather and Lace]

I mean I don't have any hard evidence that it's fake but it just sounds fake

Which part? The abilities or last sentence? Or both?

[Leather and Lace]

To me it seems he rushed to claim just to save himself even though we're 2-3 votes away from lynching (depending if The Counsel counts as majority cause wgeurts could be lying about 8 votes).

What do you think of the claim, though?

[Leather and Lace]

Hi.

Scumclaim.

[Leather and Lace]

I mean I don't have any hard evidence that it's fake but it just sounds fake

Which part? The abilities or last sentence? Or both?

Guess I'll park my vote here then.

VOTE: SirCakez

The claim sounds fine. Cakez sounds to me like he got himself a scum/3p role pm.

[Leather and Lace]

Seems like a role either scum or town could get in this type of game. Really I wouldn't base my read on him based on his claimed abilties too much.

My vote for Cakez has nothing to do with my read of shos.

[Leather and Lace]

I mean I don't have any hard evidence that it's fake but it just sounds fake

Which part? The abilities or last sentence? Or both?

The abilities
The quote everyone has, I know

I have a REALLY bizarre role and "tracker with a few 1-shots" doesn't compare at all.

You are aware he's not full-claiming, yes?

[Leather and Lace]

Seems like a role either scum or town could get in this type of game. Really I wouldn't base my read on him based on his claimed abilties too much.

My vote for Cakez has nothing to do with my read of shos.

Wasn't responding to that was responding to this:

To me it seems he rushed to claim just to save himself even though we're 2-3 votes away from lynching (depending if The Counsel counts as majority cause wgeurts could be lying about 8 votes).

I know you were.

What do you think of the claim, though?

[Leather and Lace]

The abilities he stated seem fine to me

What do you make of Cakez saying the abilities claimed sound faked?

[Leather and Lace]

My seven pages of content resulted in me feeling good about TC, so I don't give a rat's ass what you think of me because that's a remarkable accomplishment in itself.

[Leather and Lace]

@wg yume only posted "hello" after you prodded them. reprod her please.

Imho contentless posts after a prod with zero intent stated to engage in the game should be considered an ignored prod.

[Leather and Lace]

in other words, the only kind of discussion in this game was about the counsel. we've seen shit like that before, we all agree it's wifom. the dwelling on that (and the 6-wagon on me because of it) is stupid and probably encouraged by scum. The game has over 500 posts and there are players in the game you barely know exist. Vedith, flames, Kuroi, Yume.. it's all drowned in L&L spam.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

This is not a conference call. Just because I'm doing shit doesn't mean other people can't do shit.

Stop trying to use me as a scapegoat. It's not going to work.

[Leather and Lace]

THERE HASNT BEEN ANY LEGIT SCUMHUNTING IN THE GAME YET. I blame L&L for this. I'm not calling the 'other people' scum, I'm calling the one whose sole purpose this game was that we not hear them, it seems.

You can whine all you want, but you're not going to lynch me because what I accomplished toDay was far more valuable than anything YOU have done by far.

There's enough Bloodborne victims here that can testify that an unknown 3P proxy MUST be sorted or killed. Bottom line.

They're sorted. You're the one keeping this bullshit going with your incessant whining. Don't believe me? ISO me. Then shut the fuck up and find something else to cry about.

[Leather and Lace]

Your laziness is not my problem.

[Leather and Lace]

In fact shos, if you're too lazy to read then I suggest you replace out and go find something else to occupy your time because "wah words" is not valid scumhunting.

[Leather and Lace]

incidentally, I tried setting whether I could affect the quote box at the top of the vote count by defending the mod a PM with something along the lines of "can you quote this at the top of the quote box and attribute the quote to me". the fact that it didn't work is probably utterly meaningless, but hey, now everyone knows I tried.

Send him a decent quote that is relevant to lies/lying.

[Leather and Lace]

So far, the hidden vote doesn't seem to carry any weight.

I don't think the mod is lying about the result because shos has been scumming the fuck out of the game.

I'm good with assuming a truthful Counsel and result.

VOTE: shos

[Leather and Lace]

VOTE: BNL

Shos is being scummy as can be, but BNL is playing scummy and lining up lynches w/o considering the poss. that shos was framed by the mod.

I'm really trying to understand you here, but this post isn't adding up.

You admit shos is scummy "as can be" but vote BNL for not considering that shos might be framed?

Does not compute. If shos is scummy "as can be", why the doubt over the results?

[Leather and Lace]

in other words, the only kind of discussion in this game was about the counsel. we've seen shit like that before, we all agree it's wifom. the dwelling on that (and the 6-wagon on me because of it) is stupid and probably encouraged by scum. The game has over 500 posts and there are players in the game you barely know exist. Vedith, flames, Kuroi, Yume.. it's all drowned in L&L spam.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

This is not a conference call. Just because I'm doing shit doesn't mean other people can't do shit.

Stop trying to use me as a scapegoat. It's not going to work.

But it just might work.

[Leather and Lace]

This triggered the zero weight vote on The Counsel.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a significant delay between that post and the votecount?

Why are you not considering that shos might have voted The Counsel to frame BNL?

[Leather and Lace]

Flames is town

Empty read; where did it come from for such a matter-of-fact tone?

Yeah? So? I do such things all the time.

Why are you not asking about this prior to forming your conclusion?

[Leather and Lace]

Pedit: I tend to make the conclusion first.

And you wonder why you get mislynched as town?

[Leather and Lace]

Over the night I've thought about it, and realised that Shos is the best lynch for today.

If he's scum, good. Otherwise, the Counsel lied to us, so we lynch them tomorrow. So {Shos, The Counsel} should be our lynchpool for today, and I'm leaning towards the former. The only way this can fail is if the Mod lied to the Counsel.

@Everyone not voting shos/The Counsel:

What do you disagree about this?

False Dilemna --> We dont have to lynch in those 2.

That's no dilemma at all. If anything, it's false dichotomy.

And it's also a valid way of putting a highly contentious matter to rest.

[Leather and Lace]

My scumread on shos isn't based on The Counsel's assertion that shos is the extra voter.

^

Top three scum reads are shos, BNL and xyzzy

^ sounds about right

[Leather and Lace]

Not really wanting to lynch BNL because he just strikes me as a kneejerk scumread, which usually winds up flipping town.

I could really go for some shos blood, though.

[Leather and Lace]

Not really wanting to lynch BNL because he just strikes me as a kneejerk scumread, which usually winds up flipping town.

I could really go for some shos blood, though.

If BNL flips town then this comment is from scum.

That post makes no sense.

[Leather and Lace]

That post makes no sense.

Then re read it until you understand it, kiddo.

Somehow I doubt I'll live that long.

[Leather and Lace]

We need to resolve this shos situation.

Regardless of the vote manipulation, he's independently scummy.

Lynch it and put the vote thing to rest too.

[Leather and Lace]

VOTE: BNL

Just because.

[Leather and Lace]

Why couldn't you keep your mouth shut for a few hours?

[Leather and Lace]

I would still prefer shos

Likewise.

VOTE: shos

[Leather and Lace]

MM, kindly shoot xyzzy please

Kthx.

[Leather and Lace]

I'm a day vig.

Votes: cakez

Now why would I think farside had a tile that could shoot?