Mini 1993 - Earthbound Mafia: Giygas' Curse - GAME OVER

[Carrot and Stick]

Yo.

Fair warning: Assemblerotws and I don't have a line of communication yet so I'll need to set that up sooner rather than later, and furthermore, he brought me in frankly at a time I consider too early (one of the reasons he wanted to hydra with me is because he thinks I can be awesome sometimes, but the times I can be awesome are often after D1), so he'll probably end up disappointed in me, but oh well, I did agree.

[Carrot and Stick]

Sup
VOTE: infernobrafin can I vote inferno only?
Nothing against him there's just something.. I don't know. Robotic? About his tone.
I'm skipping RVS. I am outright calling him scummy.

I'll be honest: this is the first poster not in my slot which I have above the null line.

I realize that's four people in a game which is nigh-guaranteed to have only three scum and thus at least one of InfernoBrafin/acryon/LUV/GoldenParadox must be town (not even going into how it doesn't account for players unposted yet in that any of the people not posting by that point could be scum and thus mean more than one in the above is town), but 'tis what it is.

[Carrot and Stick]

the worst is town, or at least not scum with InfBraf. Cheeky scumplay like that isn't his thing I think.

Loosely, this I think I can agree on. It's a bit tentative, but he's the second player who I have north of null. Unfortunately, even though I absolutely should have both you and Momra sorted, no such luck. I also cannot say I really can back anything else.

I'll probably be resorting to a readslist in order to sort players, with the caveat that there's not really much in the way of townreads so much as it is a hierarchy of "these are the players I find least scummy". Which is backwards from my preferred, but better than nothing at all.

[Carrot and Stick]

BuJaber
Beefster

The Worst

Iconeum
alban
Kthxbye

InfernoBrafin
Momrangal
TheGoldenParadox
Lil Uzi Vert
Mathdino
acryon

I think I'm somewhere around here as of bottom of 3.

[Carrot and Stick]

Well, seeing how I seem to have slept through the RVS altogether, might as well:
Not liking the discussion between Math and IB regarding the definition of 'scummy'. I'd say I dislike IB the most in that exchange, though I don't know why Math is going through all that trouble to explain. Also not liking the OMGUS behaviour of that hydra.
Beefster, because you read both IB and Math as scummy right now, you believe it's a SvS fight? Thoughts?
VOTE: InfernoBrafin
fp'd about 7 times?

Barely, but I'd call this above null.

[Carrot and Stick]

If anything IB is the more likely scum.

What makes him more likely scum then math, from your perspective?

Make that strongly to the point of probably strongest.

With the caveat that my "strongest town" is "in any other game this would be weak town".

BuJaber's posts that page also increase my townread there, so he's up there with Iconeum.

Edit: Long time no see Marangal, acryon
I don't think I've ever played on the same team as either of you?

Hey there Dino I think you are correct on that.

Alllssoooo

Real talk I am already not a fan of acronym.

That slot can legit get lynched

Yikes. I'm usually better with first impressions, but I admit I came on a little strong. Also I'm not "acronym".

I take Mathdino's side on the Math v. Inferno debate. In addition to being wrong, Inferno seems to be getting frustrated very quickly. This isn't necessarily a scumtell, but it does rub me the wrong way.

Icon feels like obvtown.

Gut says Math is town.

@Beefster:

I otherwise seem to like your posts, but this ends up feeling like convenient hedging for you:
1. "Leaning scum [on Mathdino]. His posts feel kinda IIOA-ish"
2. "[Math vs. Inferno is] probably not SvS, so I'm likely wrong on at least one of them. I need to wait and see how things develop.
3. "If anything IB is the more likely scum."

So are you more or less saying here you think Mathdino is likely town?

You know from Math's entrance I kinda had a pet theory that Math-acryon was 2/3 of our scum, but now I flat-out don't need to say it's a pet theory anymore it's just a flat-out working theory at this point because this screams all kinds of red flags for buddy-buddy. Especially having some idea of how Mathblade operates when he's scum.

I don't know the third scum yet but hey, two out of three on D1 isn't half bad I guess.

One sec, need to check where my hydra's vote is at and the votecount.

[Carrot and Stick]

Oh our vote's already on acryon. WELL THEN.
I suppose I can revote for emphasis?
VOTE: acryon.

[Carrot and Stick]

VOTE: Beefster

Weakly tentatively have a slightly better impression of LUV.

Unfortunately,

Ohmaigod
Ok
That dino v infernodra was a head ache to read
FYI
I think the latter is just... Very green and misunderstood the term. TvT

Dino, talk to me
How likely is that vote placed out of frustration vs it being placed because of actual opportunistic behavior?

Can't say the same of Momra.

That being said, I agree with the sentiment at this point that InfernoBrafin IS more likely than not town.

VOTE: Bujaber
This is a serious vote, and I think this slot should actually get lynched. It feels like he's decided to just piggy back on the hottest topic atm. Possibly to look like he's being active?

VOTE: Bujaber
This is a serious vote, and I think this slot should actually get lynched. It feels like he's decided to just piggy back on the hottest topic atm. Possibly to look like he's being active?

It does feel a bit like that. However, the big paragraph to me pings as town-effort. Not that quantity = town, but I feel like we'd see the effort portrayed differently if he were just trying to get credit for activity.

Momra I wanted you to be town.

[Carrot and Stick]

Iconeum
BuJaber

(notable gap)

Beefster
The Worst

(small gap)

alban/marshy
InfernoBrafin
Kthxbye
Lil Uzi Vert

(rather some gap)

TheGoldenParadox

(big gaping canyon of a gap)

Momrangal
Mathdino
acryon

About this at the end of seven.

[Carrot and Stick]

Mathdino is town. I will literally quit mafiascum if math is scum here.

I mean.
It's not impossible he's town, but like.

You shouldn't make promises like this without a backup plan in place because it can and will backfire because right now I feel like I'm entering into "spot the scum" mode of a specific type.

Rather.

This is a playerlist which, by and large, if I had to give it a type of playstyle, I'd call, "sub-par". (No offense meant, but Momra, Mathdino, and LUV are the only three players which I'd call skilled-as-town, and LUV is conditional on him playing from a specific mindset.)

One of my initial troubles is that it was a playerlist that, thanks to their type of playstyle, my normal methods of scumhunting were a little out of focus.

Because things that I'd normally hone in on would be invalid in this sort of environment, more or less.

But I think I've managed to adjust it more or less.

In this environment.
Looking for "things which sound town" or "things which look scum" isn't going to work.
I guarantee it, it'll backfire hardcore.

Instead you have to look deeper. I had some difficulties, but I BELIEVE I've recalibrated such that I've now got a fair idea what to hone in on. (For instance, Beefster might be too high on my town list. If I'm wrong on a townread, it's most likely him.)

You have to instead not think "does this look town?" and instead look for "is this actually town?". Mathdino, undeniably, 'looks' town. By which, I mean, he 'sounds' like he is helping the town. But the question to look for is whether what he is saying is actually driven by town. This is the same metric I am rating Momrangal by, and both of them have not only failed it, but have passed (or failed depending on your perspective) the inverse test.

This is not a game where you're going to get a town win by lynching the most scummy players every day.
This game is filled to the brim with players I'd call lynchbait--it'd be ridiculously easy to lead lynch after lynch. So what you look for from scum is basically evidence of the long game. Evidence of taking root to create long-term interactions which keep the slot kicking. Things which are driven by scum.

My accuracy is such that it wouldn't surprise me to be wrong about having the scumteam pegged.
I individually scumread all three and I see associatives from all three which indicate they're the scumteam, but I'm not a scumhunting goddess so I know I can and will be wrong. So sure. Mathdino could in fact be town.

But I really don't think so. Mathdino has set roots. He has set a plan down. I'm not sure if you ask me to do so that I'd be able to walk you through his process of having laid those roots. Especially since I don't know for sure what his scumteam is. (I don't think you're on it for what it's worth. In fact this post alone makes me pretty damn sure you're town.) But what he has done is to establish a presence and set up a long-term goal.

That can come from a town-him, yes. (Which is frankly one of the reasons why it's even possible for him to be town.) But I strongly believe that the way he'd go about it if he were town would be different. That if he were town, his roots, his presence, would be less precise. He's a calculator as either alignment, sure enough, but as town he is still the UNINFORMED, and yet in this game his actions speak of not being uninformed; there's no hint of disarray, of chaos, of divergence, of disorder, and those are signs that even the most precision-based town players would have on D1.

Who he is going after is something that is an artificial process. Instead of feeling like his goal is to find scum, when reading his posts I feel like his goal is to lynch others while not being lynched.

I see the plan in his posts, and I see a scumteam led by him written all over Momrangal and acryon's posts as well. Their interactions have been forced for the sake of interactions, and altogether they have kept each other at the distance where they can do whatever they need--they're distant enough where they can choose to bus, but close enough where they can choose to scumbloc, depending on the need, and this is an interaction that feels entirely calculated.

Frankly the thing which gives me the most doubt about the scumteam is honestly that I wouldn't expect to be competent enough to have nailed it in the first five, six pages. Legit reverse-self-burden-of-proficiency is the closest I can think of for a reason for them to be town.

[Carrot and Stick]

Also,
VOTE: Mathblade.

[Carrot and Stick]

Also I'm basically down to policy lynch brafin at this point

This alone is a scumclaim from Mathdino.

[Carrot and Stick]

Votecount 1.11

(4) InfernoBrafin: acryon, BuJaber, MathDino, the worst

Btw at this stage of the game given that InfernoBrafin is pretty evidently not scum the votes here notably are >random to have 1-2 scum in them.

The reason I'd finger acryon and MathDino specifically is a combination of a few things.
-Slightly Burden of Proficiency, in that while I don't have the highest expectations of BuJaber and certainly have low ones of the worst I hold acryon and MathDino to a higher standard.
-The reasons stated for staying on the wagon/joining in the first place. I vaguely buy The Worst, as town who has a sub-par playstyle (no offense meant but it's literally in your name that you're the worst ), believes what he does and would join.
BuJaber in his push feels like wrong town in that I can understand why he has gone where he has but I don't think his vote is right.

Yet with acryon and Mathdino, that's absent.
For those two, their reasons for being on the wagon are questionable, at best. They don't resonate with me at all.

And when you pair that with the first, that amplifies things.
NOT ONLY do I expect them to have a higher standard of play, BUT ALSO they have less reasons than the lower-standard-of-play players for staying on that wagon. It's a double-whammy of reasons why they're suspicious-as-fuck.

[Carrot and Stick]

I've just had bad experiences playing with hydras because they became lynchbait because the heads had conflicting opinions.

Scum points awarded. You admit that in your experience "hydrae/hydras are lynchbait" so you

vote

them???
Subsequent votes on the hydra by BuJaber and the worst are a bit worrying, but I'll accept these were RVS votes with a grain of salt (especially the worst who switched his vote quickly. Only if the hydra actually flips scum will I have another "different" look at this switch)

Annnnnnd I need look no further to know Almost50 is town.

I mean I already was leaning that way on the slot but this alone is enough to know.

[Carrot and Stick]

inb4 assembler brought you in because you're better at scum

Actually Assembler started conversing with me specifically because he wanted to learn from my TOWN game, believe it or not. Yes scumastina is known for being a far, far, far, far more competent player than like 98% of scum players on the site, but Assembler wasn't really interested in her skills. The thing which got us talking was my talents as town. He wanted to see the magic in the process working, more or less.

On that note this is an awfully easy way for you to segue into discrediting and/or scumreading me if you don't like what I have to say.

Which, I imagine, you don't!

[Carrot and Stick]

does mastina also think i'm mathblade

Frick I swore I corrected that. No, I know all too well you're not, it's just that when I type 'Math', my brain autofills it in with 'blade' and it takes an active effort to force it to be 'dino' instead.

Why is Buju town and what do you make of me having two followers on Buju?

The reason BuJaber is town is more or less because what he does has no scum in it and yet has fairly strong indicators of being town. What he says might not sound town, but the push driving it, the motivating factor behind it, undeniably rings town, not scum.

The reason you have two followers on him is. Bluntly. Because this is a town that until the replacements came in was mostly morons.
To be a little less blunt/rude, the following you have comes from players who're town, yet can't recognize the difference between a style they don't like and actual scum motivation. BuJaber's methodology is such that he is not one making friends; everything he does is antagonizing people. That's easy for less-experienced/skilled players to misinterpret as scum, but it's quite the opposite.

It's also one of the reasons why I think you're scum, because you're of a sufficient skill level where you should have been able to recognize this and see the very same things I'm indicating here.

Also how do you feel about how Buju engages me back?

His responses have felt like those of an inexperienced, slightly-bullheaded, and yet undeniably town player. He bleeds sincerity in thinking he has locked onto things which are meaningful, and I have felt that when he has posted, he feels he is bringing up good points regardless of whether those were actually good points or not. The drive of sincerity is there, where everything he's done I've thought wasn't faked.

[Carrot and Stick]

Mastina have you read a single town game of mine since I came back from 4 years ago?

Probably?

I wouldn't remember one way or another.

I'm just gonna wait until everyone catches up and is in real time before tearing this apart.
I think mastina thinks I'm someone else and is mixing up my playstyle with someone else.

Nope! Fine way to turn a typo on my part into an attempt to discredit my read though!

[Carrot and Stick]

Town: Momrangal / the worst / Beefster / Mathdino
Scum Read: acryon

Did I mention Almost50 was town?

This would be another fine item demonstrating the why.

Where his reads are rats-ass backwards from mine save for one which he will inevitably back out of when he sees that I actually support him on it.

[Carrot and Stick]

I think mastina night be drunk

Nope! Am as sober as I get.

I'll crash a few hours from now but I'm rather awake.

Mathdino is scum; your read there is right.
acryon is scum; Almost50's read there is right.
Momrangal is scum; my read there is...well, most likely right but let's not elevate it to the level of your reads since if I were wrong on a scumread it'd be most likely to be her.

Final readslist is:
Lil Uzi Vert/Almost50
alban/marshy/Not_Mafia
Iconeum
BuJaber
TheGoldenParadox
InfernoBrafin

(notable gap)

The Worst
Beefster

(small gap)

Kthxbye

(big gaping canyon of a gap)

Momrangal
acryon
Mathdino

Mathdino is in his scum meta. I know the difference between him and Mathblade, but trying to imply I think he's them when it was clearly a typo on my part is the latest in the reasons why he's scum. (I might mentally type 'Mathblade' when I mean 'Mathdino', but I would never confuse the two as players. Not least of all because Mathblade is a close friend of mine that I have interactions with outside of mafiascum whereas Mathdino is more of a close associate.)

[Carrot and Stick]

Nope! Fine way to turn a typo on my part into an attempt to discredit my read though!

wat
If, from my perspective, it was actually a typo, then that doesn't work at all to discredit your read.

My point is:
You turned what was clearly a typo (given I had multiple times typed your name as Mathdino prior to accidentally once typing it as Mathblade) into a multi-post series of trying to frame the narrative that I thought you were Mathblade. (I don't.) It was taking advantage of what was a very unambiguous mistake on my part and making the most out of it.

I'm also pretty peeved that I can't use you or A50 to help me sort acryon given that your reads on him are apparently "WELL I'M CALLING THE D1 SCUMTEAM AS MATHDINO/ACRYON" which I obviously can't do anything with.

What happened to your own townread on him? You should have him sorted off of reasoning of your own, given you stated he was town in no less than five places.

Which magically upon the entrance of Almost50 an influential player scumreading him went to best to sort on a different day.

Which bullshit narrative would you like to stick with? Your original "acryon is town" read, your "acryon is best sorted after D1" read, or your newest as of this post "I can't sort acryon without help" read?

[Carrot and Stick]

Anyway point is your take on my play (especially my D1 play) being like a calculator is really not accurate as of me coming back (which is why I figured you thought I was Mathblade). Like, yeah I turn into a calculator when the playercount goes down (you should see me in micros) but D1 of minis I mostly play off gut.

Well then you'd just be scum then outright if you don't do the calculator thing as town.

Because that was my point.

The calculator thing comes from scum.

It'd be POSSIBLE to come from a town you doing the calculator thing.
But it's undeniable.
This game you've done the calculator thing.
The calculator thing comes from scum.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt by stating that it was at least a possibility you'd do the calculator thing as town...

...But sure, if you say you wouldn't do the calculator thing as town, I'm fine with that because that means you're outright admitting it came from scum.

[Carrot and Stick]

mastina haven't you literally gone on record saying that you can't meta players when you only know one side of their meta? Or was that someone else?

My stance on meta cannot be succinctly described that way, no.

[Carrot and Stick]

I don't like that it took him a second time to just straight up say "yes people should have more posts after 48 hrs" and his first reaction was to just Shade me and fluff himself up.
The whole "I'm important and I'm being productive" is an argument I feel is more scum and admittedly something I feel like I do more of as scum.
As far as his reactivity goes, I am not a fan that he brought up the fact that he made a read list.

None of what you are saying here (but these parts especially) resonates on any level--in fact, the opposite, these feel like absolutely hollow arguments with no actual critical thought applied to them.

[Carrot and Stick]

You call me a competent town player but don't seem to care about my reads in the case that I actually am town.

Well that's because simply put you aren't town. And honestly given the stark contrast between your reads and mine, I'm not going to trust them even if you flipped town. I'd reconsider come D3 and use your corpse plus the lynch of D2 and bodies of N1 and N2 to scumhunt. Not a moment sooner.

To put it simply: I think you are scum. I am lynching you today.
If you are not scum, then my scumread was incorrect. I will reconsider reads D2, but given that most of my reads I still feel good about regardless of your alignment, I doubt there'd be much in the way of change.
If my reads prove incorrect a second time, then come D3 yes I will go back and think of what you said.

No sooner.

So yes. I don't care about your reads right now. I will in the future if you flip town, but that requires you to actually flip town, something I do not believe will happen.

[Carrot and Stick]

It seems like you're assuming that I, as scum, would somehow know that you made an error there and specifically tried to discredit your case based around that error... when you were just gonna tell me "NOPE FUCK YOUR DISCREDIT" the moment you caught up. How does that help me?

It helps you by human psychology. This is a really shitty way of wording it, but basically you stating it even if I later say you were wrong plants the idea in the head of other players that my position I am pushing you from comes from a different base than where it really does. Me correcting it does nothing to remove the original plant; the seeds once rooted are never uprooted.

acryon is a good player (definitely better than you're describing but idk if you've played with him)

Actually it is specifically BECAUSE acryon is a good player that I consider his play this game to be indicative of scum. I honestly don't remember if I have or not but he, similar to you, is someone I definitely have more than just passing familiarity with if nothing else even if my level of familiarity is sadly not on the more 'intimate' level.

So you're gonna have to explain what you mean by "that calculator thing".

Sure thing!

You have to instead not think "does this look town?" and instead look for "is this actually town?". Mathdino, undeniably, 'looks' town. By which, I mean, he 'sounds' like he is helping the town. But the question to look for is whether what he is saying is actually driven by town. This is the same metric I am rating Momrangal by, and both of them have not only failed it, but have passed (or failed depending on your perspective) the inverse test.

So what you look for from scum is basically evidence of the long game. Evidence of taking root to create long-term interactions which keep the slot kicking.

Things which are driven by scum.

I individually scumread all three and I see associatives from all three which indicate they're the scumteam, but I'm not a scumhunting goddess so I know I can and will be wrong. So sure. Mathdino could in fact be town.

But I really don't think so.

Mathdino has set roots. He has set a plan down.

I'm not sure if you ask me to do so that I'd be able to walk you through his process of having laid those roots. Especially since I don't know for sure what his scumteam is. (I don't think you're on it for what it's worth. In fact this post alone makes me pretty damn sure you're town.)

But what he has done is to establish a presence and set up a long-term goal.

That can come from a town-him, yes

.

(AS PER MATHDINO, IT CANNOT.)

That if he were town, his roots, his presence, would be less precise.

He's a calculator as either alignment

(AS PER MATHDINO, HE IS NOT AS TOWN A CALCULATOR)

, sure enough, but as town he is still the UNINFORMED, and yet

in this game his actions speak of not being uninformed; there's no hint of disarray, of chaos, of divergence, of disorder, and those are signs that even the most precision-based town players would have on D1

.

Who he is going after is something that is an artificial process. Instead of feeling like his goal is to find scum, when reading his posts I feel like his goal is to lynch others while not being lynched

.

I see the plan in his posts, and I see a scumteam led by him written all over Momrangal and acryon's posts as well

. Their interactions have been forced for the sake of interactions, and altogether they have kept each other at the distance where they can do whatever they need--they're distant enough where they can choose to bus, but close enough where they can choose to scumbloc, depending on the need, and this is an interaction that feels entirely calculated.

[Carrot and Stick]

I mean he was being defensive which was the point I was trying to make and really I didn't see a reason for him to feel as such as town.

Sorry but when reading his posts I do not read them as defensive. Not even remotely.

He straight up said I was either scum or playing against towns win on and didn't know how to play well with town, even though I have showed the desire to sort out at least one other person as well as work with them

Yes indeed. And what, pray tell, can that be described as?

BuJaber's methodology is such that he is not one making friends; everything he does is antagonizing people. That's easy for less-experienced/skilled players to misinterpret as scum, but it's quite the opposite.

It's also one of the reasons why I think you're scum, because you're of a sufficient skill level where you should have been able to recognize this and see the very same things I'm indicating here.

I don't see a reason to shade a person like that as town

Shade, maybe not. Scumread, though? Sure, comes from town all the time. And that's more how I read his posts.

[Carrot and Stick]

Edit: Okay so that's 3 players who don't like to explain their IB townread, gotcha.

I wasn't asked!

My interpretation of her points are:
- The IB push was bad (okay but I wagon players specifically to see what people think)
- I'm playing to my scum meta (her town meta on me is 4 years old)
- Mathdino is trying to get easy mislynches (I can promise you, and you can choose to believe me or not, that if IB was instantly run up to L-1, I'd have jumped off and evaluated)
- I assume she thinks I hate policy lynches because I used to hate them 4 years ago, so she's associating policy lynches with scum-me? Idk what that one's about.
- Mathdino is discrediting the case against him (no shit, because it's incorrect and I prefer to know why)

It's funny you say these are my points when literally the only one which actually is one that you listed is in fact the meta one.

I mean.
The IB push was indeed bad, but you're not scum because of it.
I do think you're going for relatively-speaking low hanging fruit, but that's not why you're scum especially not in this playerlist where most of the players are the type of player I'd qualify as being low-hanging fruit.
You are scum for the policy lynch, but not in the way you describe--it's an altogether different factor.

...Okay so in a sense I suppose the 'Mathdino is discrediting the case against him' point is

close

to one of my reasons for you being scum, but not in the way you present it. Beefster's actually much closer to the mark:

What actually struck me was not what was in your posts, but what appeared to be behind them. I'm put off more by the agenda that is in your posts.

^That is much more in line with my point.

You are concerned with looking good.
You are concerned with appearances.
You are concerned with how players are perceiving you.
You are far, far, far, FAR less concerned with who is the lynch--and that's the problem.

That's the POLAR OPPOSITE of your self-described town meta. How did you describe your townplay? Ah yes. I believe it goes like...

D1 of minis I mostly play off gut.
I've also gotten a lot more confident lately (which is helped by a few towngames where I was basically right for all of D1), and either people are around to rein me in, or they're not.
When I push early wagons, I expect that others will weigh in. I can easily get locked in tunnels in "sub-par towns".

You, as town, have stated that you play on gut, easily get locked in tunnels, and the like. (Including going on a tirade about how you tunneled Gamma D1.) Yet this game, you are utterly unconcerned about who is the lynch so long as it isn't you.

I am not usually a describey person. I normally don't like to quote posts from your iso which demonstrate the opposite because it's not a technique I consider pretty effective. But I'll make an exception:

Spoiler: Mathdino highlight reel

Your playstyle is naturally scummy, and if you're scum, explaining why is literally anti town for me to do. Regardless, I generally don't have strong reads on naturally scummy players. The scumminess masks the alignment indicative stuff.

Starts off innocently enough but we'll get there.

Edit: Always scummy, flashwagoning scummy players is great for (hilarious) reactions.

also note that i said this in reference to paradox's play
given that he's been mislynched in both games i've played with him, the idea that paradox is always scummy holds true
so do you also believe i'm shading paradox by saying this

Oh and the other half too I just wanted to separate it into two quotes for emphasis.

well i was shading your hydra's play quality
not your alignment
in fact, had you actually asked me if i was scumreading you about a page ago, i'd have called you gun-to-my-head town
@Beefster: do you think anything of the fact that inferno literally just gave me reasons for why i thought they were scummy

VOTE: InfernoBrafin
this has nothing to do with your generally scummy vibes FTR
opportunistic, could've easily voted me when i basically asked them to
instead chose to wait until after paradox voted me
then assuming reasons for other people scumreading them is an actual scumtell (i think? i haven't seen this behaviour often enough to confirm this but scum is generally more self-conscious)

(I'd also note the reversal in the IB read but that's a sidenote.)

but again
it was of no benefit for me to start telling everyone exactly how you're scummy
because
1. I don't want people to start using my reasons as bad reasons to scumread you.
2. I don't want to give you a road map to getting a townread from me. I want you to play how you naturally play and we'll see what happens.

what you're not understanding is the fact that i wasn't paragraphposting about what made you scummy was actively an effort to not start riling people up about you

and yeah, paradox has been mislynched in 2 different games, once mislynched while i was hard-defending him the entire game
so i believe i have the right to call paradox scummy
it's like you're actively ignoring the idea that a player can be scummy in every game they're in
jaydragonking and momo are obvious examples

If I were actually scumreading you at the time, I would've explained it. However, I was not scumreading you, I was noting that your playstyle is such that a lot of people are going to find it scummy. THAT'S what I mean by "scummy".
Now that I am scumreading you, I explained it.
2. Yeah, town doesn't do that, but scum does. There are times when fully explaining a scumread is anti-town. Plus I wasn't scumreading you, lol.
3. Yes! I was scum with him as town, and I recognised that he was generally pretty scummy (to the point where everyone else but me was scumreading him), but I hard defended him because he always plays that way as town. I was fake-townreading him, despite admitting that he was scummy and dropped scumtells everywhere.
Regardless, you now know my full thought process behind my progression on you, but you're still interpreting my posts under your definition of the word "scummy", when someone has already confirmed that's not how I use it. How does insisting on framing my posts using your definition, help you get a read on me?

(This isn't so much the "doesn't care about who gets lynched" half so much as it is "cares about how he, Mathdino, looks" half, but I thought I'd include those sorts of posts anyway.)

everyone voting me is doing something anti-town because i am town
i've also seen vigilantes shoot conftown before
are either of these actions scummy
obviously not
otherwise i could call anyone who ever votes me scummy
stop with the semantics and get into the game
like i've already won the semantics battle in terms of "people have confirmed that i do in fact use words this way outside of the game"

^The reason this is looking good but not caring who's lynched is twofold: if he's already won the argument, why is he continuing it? He's continuing to look good. Secondly, if he genuinely thought IB was scum, then instead of saying "stop with the semantics and get into the game", he would be calling the semantics something that IB was as scum using to attack him. He did not.

1. how is that a fallacy
from my perspective, anyone who votes me is doing something anti-town
does this give me the right to call people scummy for voting me
furthermore, is voting a mod-confirmed innocent child scummy?
fuck no, it's just a meme thing to do

2. just stop it with the wordplay
it's not misleading, because literally every other game i've been in people have understood it; you're the one choosing to harp on me for this because you're obsessed with wanting to know why i think you act scummy

I'M ALSO NOT CALLING YOU SCUMMY FOR THE SEMANTICS DISCUSSION BTW
SO ADD THAT TO THE LIST OF REASONS YOU'RE SCUM THAT YOU'VE PUT IN MY MOUTH

This is more or less trying to have his cake and eat it too: is IB scum pushing semantics, or is IB's semantics something Mathdino doesn't put much stock into, or is IB's semantics something Mathdino insists on defending himself against? Badly worded, but I think I can maybe get the point across--NOT ONLY is Mathblade treating IB as town while voting them, BUT ALSO continuing to defend himself to look good rather than focusing on scumhunting. If he were focusing on scumhunting, he'd be calling out IB's actions as being indicative of being scum, yet he rather explicitly says he doesn't think what they're doing IS.

@IB: "Scummy" is a set of behaviours that often ping people or get people to gutscumread them. Most newbies are scummy.
This is different from "scum-indicative", which is the set of behaviours that have been shown to indicate scum.
Inconsistency, for example is scummy. But I'd actually argue it's scum-indicative.
@Icon: I didn't intend to go through this trouble until it started actively confusing this hydra. It's generally not an issue with people.

(More "look good" posting.)

you do realise i only over-explain shit when asked to or when people don't understand me
the convo with IB was intended to help sort them (went null -> nulltown -> scumlean)
where in my posts do you see IIoA that wasn't a direct clarification to another player

Then why was he overexplaining to IB, someone he says is a scumread? Explaining to a scumread, by his own confession earlier in his posts, would be anti-town and yet if it holds true that he has a scumread there he has continued to do so. (Want me to requote where he says that explaining it to scum would be bad?)

@All

: Given that LUV is engaging with players and asking fair questions, I feel like I should be townreading him, but I'm really not. A lot of it seems like it could be scum going through the motions.

Comfortable with votes on LUV if you don't like the IB push

.

Here's a golden nugget!

I'll admit that if IB is town, Bujaber's probably the scum on the wagon, so I can see Marangal's perspective.

This is another one!

Also from that post is the other half, being concerned with appearances:

A. Wow, it's a good thing

I at no point scumread you guys until the page where I actually voted you

.

No read on the hydra, feels like they're playing in an

intentionally scummy

way, but whatever.

what about this post makes you think i'm shading you? do you believe i'm shading your alignment, or your skill/quality as a player?

DUDE. THE SERIOUS FRICK.

The answer to your own question is

literally

in the post you quoted. Either you're stupid (doubtful) not paying attention (likely) or this is insanely scummy. (Occam's Razor)

ughhhh
do i haaaaave to respond to this
do you understand that saying someone could be playing in a way that is intentionally scummy
DOES NOT MAKE THAT PLAYER SCUM
like, given that literally no one in this entire game actually is approaching this argument the way inferno is
i'd have expected brafin to come along and be like "yo inferno stop with the semantics debate, i see what mathdino's saying"
but the fact that he's apparently in lockstep with his partner is just unbelievable/unrealistic
scumread intensifies

The latter half also is inconsistent: if IB were scum, Mathdino would have no need to explain/respond to it. And yet he does so. Except, he calls it scum. It's again having cake while eating it behavior.

but him overly explaining and arguing about something insignificant is actually a personality trait.

I lol'd
Yeah I'm not continuing that debate
Fucking lol when players link me wiki pages in the middle of mafia games
Yo IB check out Slayers Gambit for a wiki page on a strategy that doesn't work
It's about being intentionally scummy early game to get reactions

NOT ONLY is this more of the worry over his appearances, BUT ALSO it is treating IB as town, indicating insincerity in the push.

Mathdino is town. I will literally quit mafiascum if math is scum here.
Effortpost tommorrow, too tired today.

Wow huh did I actually roll into my first game with scum Paradox

Also I'm basically down to policy lynch brafin at this point
They're never getting NKd if their reads include gems like
- BuJaber getting annoyed at BJ is alignment indicative
- Beefster scumslipped by saying TW and I share alignment
- Beefsterscum purposefully took an RVS vote as serious for ~reasons~
- Either I think IB is a jester or I'm admitting I'm scum
Hey IB I guess I'm scum
- Mathdino is scum for being defencive

The policy lynch part is a scumclaim in of itself, for reasons I'll explain at some later time, but for right now, I'll focus on a count.

Keeping track at home?

Mathdino has stated he'd lynch Paradox, LUV, InfernoBrafin, and BuJaber (caveat InfernoBrafin flipping town first admittedly) at this point in time.

Which behavior do you think this qualifies for?

"Tunnels easily playing off of gut", or "Not really concerned with who the lynch is"?

The former is Mathdino's self-professed town meta; the latter is behavior indicative of scum especially calculator scum.

1. basically yeah
i have little incentive to sort you right now

2. seems fine, most of it is town for independent reasons
if there's non-town on it it's bujaber
i think i said that already

3. i make nothing of it
i say fewer dumb things and have had better reads since i came back
so maybe great minds think alike, idk

I mean I think this is a scum-scum interaction but if you give benefit of the doubt and say Momra's town, this is more looking-good-work--working on his appearance without doing any real scumhunting.

VOTE: Not_Mafia
i'm so salty

it's at the very least a policy wagon
i'm not sure if i'd be willing to straight up lynch him right away
i'd say it's 40% policy 40% reaction/pressure 20% memes

And Not_Mafia is in his lynchlist now rather seriously, if you take the belief he would advocate for a policy lynch quite seriously.

In fact. Here's a post which says succinctly what most of my quotes above have been leading into.

Could be scum, wouldn't be surprised: {Bujaber, LUV}
Would lynch: {Paradox, IB, N_M}

Five names which are on the effective lynch shortlist.

Nearly half the playerlist, and

increasing

...not decreasing. A key difference between a town player and a scum player is that town work to decrease their lynchpool until it contains exactly the number of scum; scum work to increase their lynchpool until it contains enough mislynches to earn them a win.

So I'm at the point where I'd be willing to policy lynch half the playerlist

This sums it up nicely in fact. He is willing to lynch half the playerlist.

scummy is literally acting in a way that makes people scumread you
i've played games where all the scummiest players were town
look it's shit like this
that makes it in no way beneficial for me to keep interacting with you
why do you want me to continue filling up pages with a 1v1 against you
i just don't care anymore
like, there's not a single player in this game who's taken your side against me
and you think i've gone silent on your questioning because i'm scum who's afraid of you...?
literally the more i interact with you, the more other people want to vote you

This is more "looking good" work and furthermore not the way town talks to a scumread of theirs.

This is but a small selection of the total with incomplete descriptors attached. I don't like to rely on quotes because it gives the mistaken impression that all I have is the quotes I gave, nothing else. But this should give you a better idea of what I mean.

Consistently, throughout the game.
Mathdino has worked on looking good.
Consistently, throughout the game.
Mathdino has shown no conviction in his scumreads.
Consistently, throughout the game.
Mathdino has shown an interest in keeping his lynch options open, not honing in/focusing on a particular target.

[Carrot and Stick]

because she's already set herself up with "Assembler pulled me in at the wrong time, I suck D1" and is likely to default to "WOE IS ME MY READS SUCK" after my flip.

Nahhh. I expect to live to see D3. I'm not getting lynched this game I can guarantee you that. I might be the nightkill, be it reputation, accuracy, or the best combo of "unlikely to be protected/watched while still being a good idea to get rid of", but my plan is to either be so right that I'm someone scum think the doc/watch will be on or so wrong that scum keep me around hoping I'll get mislynched/lead the town towards mislynches even though I know I won't be.

And

day three

is the "woe is me my reads suck" day.

As I said before:

I'd reconsider come D3 and use your corpse plus the lynch of D2 and bodies of N1 and N2 to scumhunt. Not a moment sooner.

To put it simply:

I think you are scum. I am lynching you today.
If you are not scum, then my scumread was incorrect. I will reconsider reads D2, but given that most of my reads I still feel good about regardless of your alignment, I doubt there'd be much in the way of change.
If my reads prove incorrect a second time, then come D3 yes

I will go back and think of what you said.

No sooner.

For example, I disagree that scum more often than town, vote for lynchbait in RVS.

Maybe that's why you thought it was a good idea then.

I'll admit that I haven't really evaluated acryon's play after early game but I don't remember seeing anything particularly AI since then.

Maybe because acryon hasn't posted pretty much any real content since then.

attempting to sweepingly discredit nearly the entire player list for being "morons"

Sorry but I'm not going to sugarcoat things. I will call the shots as I see them. The original playerlist for this game was filled to the brim with players you could accurately define as lynchbait--do you debate this?

If so, then I ask you which players you think I call by that title which you feel don't warrant it. And be honest. Go through their games, see how often they are lynched, how often they are wagoned, how rarely people follow them, and come back to me. Because I'd say my assessment there is pretty accurate.

It is also not something I am using for high ground. I am bringing it up to make a point on players like Mathdino and Momrangal. Nothing more, nothing less.

casing the fuck out of the player who has BY FAR been the most proactive pre-replacements is nuts.

Repeat after me.
Effort != Alignment.
Effort != Alignment.
Effort != Alignment.
Effort != Alignment.
Effort != Alignment.

Effort != Alignment.
Effort != Alignment.
Effort != Alignment.
Effort != Alignment.
Effort != Alignment.

Effort != Alignment.
Effort != Alignment.
Effort != Alignment.
Effort != Alignment. Effort != Alignment. Effort != Alignment.

Effort does not, repeat. Does

NOT

correlate to alignment.

Mathdino has been the most proactive.

This is undeniably true.

But my case against him is off of

what he is

doing

while proactive

.

Mathdino's efforts are focused on looking good.
Mathdino's efforts are focused on making himself look better.
Mathdino's efforts are focused on leaving his lynchpool open.

These are traits which I don't care if you have 1, 10, 100, or 1,000 (god forbid) posts in a game on D1. It doesn't change the driving alignment behind them.

[Carrot and Stick]

It attacks MD as if coming from a guilty result, that's how sure it is. All while saying that MD could 'definitely' still be town.

These do not contradict. They augment. It is possible Mathdino is town. I outline exactly how and why that is possible...

...And then describe

why I don't think it's the case

.

That's how you go about convincing people to change their stances--

You ACKNOWLEDGE their points. You RECOGNIZE where they have valid arguments...and then you explain why you feel those arguments don't apply, why you instead feel it is the other way around, and present the evidence for your side.

TheGoldenParadox had stated an infallible townread on Mathdino.

I acknowledged it's possible Mathdino's town, because it IS. Saying it's not would be a lie. My working theory is that he's scum, but it is always possible for my working theory to be wrong because I am not a scumhunting goddess. I believe the read to be right. It is a very, very, VERY strong read. It'd be loosely akin to a gunsmith guilty I'd say in strength rather than as you word it a cop guilty--something I very, very, very strongly feel is indicative that yes he is scum, but where it would in fact be at least theoretically possible for him to be town.

This is the only approach viable to take when trying to convince players whose reads differ from yours.

Just flatout saying bluntly, "You're wrong" gets you nowhere.

I believe Mathdino is scum.
I am pushing Mathdino as being scum.
I recognize reasons why he is seen as town.
But I explain why I feel those reasons don't apply.

Does it make sense now?

I'm pretty sure those 'associations' can be made if you pick random players and reread their interactions.

Nope! Only those three have that type of association. I can quote Momrangal posts to acryon and Mathdino and compare them to others to demonstrate the difference; I can quote acryon posts to Momrangal and Mathdino compared to others to demonstrate the difference; I can and to some extent HAVE quoted Mathdino posts to Momrangal and acryon compared to those of others.

Let's just say that as long as MD is playing the town game, which Carrot admites MD is playing, I'm not lynching there.

That's not what I was saying. I was saying look-town. Not being town. Important distinction. Mathdino LOOKS town. Mathdino IS NOT DOING town things. The two should

NEVER

be confused with one another. Looking town is not indicative of being town. Doing town things is indicative of being town. Mathdino might have the former but he lacks the latter.

369 even more hedging.

No. Stating facts.
I believe Mathdino is scum. This is my working theory.
Only an idiot commits 100% to their scumread being right, especially when asked for what would happen if it were wrong. Mathdino wanted to know what I'd do if he were town; I gave my answer.
This stance has never changed, never shifted, and is absolute:
I believe Mathdino is scum.
I have a plan if he is not scum.
That doesn't change that I still think he is scum.
It just means I have an idea of what I'll do if I am wrong.

[Carrot and Stick]

You're scumreading half the player list with no explanation. Help me understand.

Sure thing! I stated that BuJaber and Beefster and The Worst were all above the nulline.

You're incorrectly representing the bottom half as being scumreads below the nullline.

They were not.

They were various degrees of "no definitive read here". Listed top to bottom from "overall see both ways but least likely to be scum" to "overall see more scum than town" more or less. But the reads were so close in strength as to be highly flexible and fluent. I self-professed in posts you conveniently skip that I was having difficulty:

I realize that's four people in a game which is nigh-guaranteed to have only three scum and thus at least one of InfernoBrafin/acryon/LUV/GoldenParadox must be town (not even going into how it doesn't account for players unposted yet in that any of the people not posting by that point could be scum and thus mean more than one in the above is town), but 'tis what it is.

I admit the wording here isn't clear so you could in fact construe those four to be scumreads but saying they were scumreads would be inaccurate. I meant exactly what I said: I had one player above the nulline, even though I knew that AT LEAST one of the other four players to have posted

must

be town at minimum. Wording is important.

Still, I indicated my trouble with locking down a read all the same.

If I had to give a phrase describing my read on those four at the time, it'd be, "these four are people who'd be possible scum but I know that at minimum one would be town and I have absolutely no real sorting reference for them in terms of whether they're actually scum or town".

Unfortunately, even though I absolutely should have both you and Momra sorted, no such luck. I'll probably be resorting to a readslist in order to sort players, with the caveat that there's not really much in the way of townreads so much as it is a hierarchy of "these are the players I find least scummy". Which is backwards from my preferred, but better than nothing at all.

And here I explicitly explain my process--that I am having trouble, that the list is "see both ways but least scummy at top", but that I don't have much in the way of something locked down.

Of course, I was dissatisfied with that. Which is what continued reading was useful for and continued effort to try and sort the slots and narrow it down. (Because again, scum try to widen the lynchpool; town try to shrink it.) Given that I currently have exactly three scumreads no more no less? I'd say I was highly successful in that endeavor. I am at exactly the spot I need to be at for D1.

Also I'm basically down to policy lynch brafin at this point

This alone is a scumclaim from Mathdino.

Is scum!Dino this blatant about a PL, especially on someone that he would know is town?

Absolutely, yes, and it is specifically BECAUSE he knows they are town that it is so blatant. (This is a preview for the

real

reason Mathdino's policy lynch on InfernoBrafin is a scumclaim.)

my reason for jumping on InfernoBrafin in the first place was RVS. I stayed on because it's produced some good pressure and content I think.

Well aside from your RVS vote being a scum-RVS vote, I don't dispute that it was an RVS vote. (It WAS an RVS vote, it's just that it was an RVS vote which is a scum-RVS-vote rather than a town-RVS-vote.) It's the staying on which is the real problem though because "it produced good pressure and content" != "InfernoBrafin is scum".

In fact, quite the opposite. Stating you stayed on because it produced good pressure and content is giving you an out: if InfernoBrafin was mislynched with you on the wagon, you could say "I didn't scumread InfernoBrafin incorrectly, it was a pressure vote for content!". Now, pray tell, which alignment is motivated to act in that way?

[Carrot and Stick]

my reason for jumping on InfernoBrafin in the first place was RVS. I stayed on because it's produced some good pressure and content I think.

Well aside from your RVS vote being a scum-RVS vote, I don't dispute that it was an RVS vote. (It WAS an RVS vote, it's just that it was an RVS vote which is a scum-RVS-vote rather than a town-RVS-vote.) It's the staying on which is the real problem though because "it produced good pressure and content" != "InfernoBrafin is scum".

In fact, quite the opposite. Stating you stayed on because it produced good pressure and content is giving you an out: if InfernoBrafin was mislynched with you on the wagon, you could say "I didn't scumread InfernoBrafin incorrectly, it was a pressure vote for content!". Now, pray tell, which alignment is motivated to act in that way?

The word I was looking for here was "accountability".

acryon stating he kept the vote on because "it produced good pressure and content" is a way of leaving himself with no accountability for the vote on a player which we undoubtedly will learn later in the game is town.

To give a counterexample: I am incredibly accountable for my Mathdino and acryon scumreads (I'd lump Momrangal in there but while I've voted Mathdino and acryon I haven't voted Momrangal so she's not as strong an example).
I have stated my reasons for voting there, I have indicated strongly my scumreads, and if these prove incorrect, I hold responsibility for them having been incorrect. I've been rather unambiguous about this.

Instead of stating that he held InfernoBrafin to be scum (something he'd be held accountable for), he is denying accountability by stating it was a pressure vote producing content.

Which alignment, I ask, has a stronger motivation for this?

[Carrot and Stick]

@acryon - why did you comment on carrot's first readlist (the one he claims is correct up to page 3), but not the second?

Because I was quoting as I went through, and the initial one was posted for a reason.

AKA, because if you quoted the most recent one your 'point' would fall apart altogether.

I'm not giving them much credit for an abundance of critical analysis happening between the two.

Frankly that's because when I locked reads down I started skimming posts from the people whose reads I had locked down...

...With the caveat that I was still scanning them looking for red flags which indicated the read I locked them as would be wrong.

By and large, with the potential exception of Beefster (even that's a stretch) and maybe, maybe, maaaaaaaaaaaaaybe The Worst (but I very sincerely doubt it), no player really did anything which triggered said "oh this means I need to reevaluate" flags. Thus the speed of my reading picked up as I honed in on things which were
-Important to comment on, or
-Actually DID change my reads, as they developed.

I'm thinking that our bagnning exchange was just TvT that was really hardcore.

The problem with that mindset is that that's

exactly

what Mathdino does as scum--he deliberately orchestrates fights to appear TvT. Furthermore, I outlined why his continued engagement with you falls under scum behavior for a different reason: in the engagement, his aim was to appear town. His aim was to look good. His aim was not to scumhunt; any thoughts where he indicated alignment while engaging with you were quite literally thrown in as afterthoughts which ended up clashing with the rest of the post as a consequence.

[Carrot and Stick]

Also, I would also like to know why all these people are calling this slot obvtown, becasue I can tell where the scumreads on me are coming from. So I don't understand what part of my play is making me obvtown.

Honestly. I want to explain why you're town, but I can't. Maybe there's a way to describe it, but I'm struggling to find it. I loathe, absolutely loathe, the thought of calling it 'gut'. That doesn't seem like the right term to use. It undersells it.

Like. You are VERY strongly town. That's not gut. That's something far more. But I don't have much in the way of a description for why. You fit as town; you don't fit as scum. A term which I am hesitant to use to describe it would be tone--I feel like it is something

related

to tone, but by calling it 'tone' I'd be calling it the wrong thing just as I would be with gut. I can say your posts come off as incredibly sincere and genuine, in a way which strongly resonates as being indicative of town truthfully pushing things rather than scum truthfully pushing things (there is a difference) and it CERTAINLY doesn't feel like scum falsefully pushing things. But that's not quite adequate a descriptor for why you are town.

You just have this type of town resonance. An aura where your alignment says "just isn't scum". There's a way to logically, reasonably define this I am sure. But I'm incapable of giving it to you, unfortunately.

acryon's vote looks opportunistic.

That's because it is, not to mention OMGUSy.

Brafin:

It's interactions like these that makes feel like Beef and Math not compatible as scumteam. They are too natural and real to be from SvS.

I believe you are correct though I'd think Beefster scum if Mathdino weren't and yet I absolutely advocate for a Mathdino lynch first between those two.

Acron is striking me as scum. His vote seems kind of out there and OMGUS-y. Not much explanation on the vote.

Honestly I know it could potentially be self-sabotaging to try and simultaneously push both the acryon and Mathdino wagons through since I know that ultimately only one can succeed and me attempting both could potentially screw me over thanks to dividing between the two, but fuck it, dueling scum wagons is okay with me.

Would you be willing to back this up with an acryon vote?

Or, given this:

Math, if we explained to you why your play was scummy, it would be detrimental to town, wouldn't it?
See, this is another example of lack of consistency. He expects the meta rules he puts out there to only apply to him (he can call people scummy without scumreading, he's not allowed to explain his reads on others but others should explain reads on him, etc.) It strikes me as a very un-townie way to play. I'm still not prepared to say scum, but it's just can't find justification for it as town.

...Is a Mathdino lynch still preferable for you?

I disagree that self awareness nullifies the scumminess of actions

A great way for me to believe this and at least entertain the idea of you being town would be for you to back this with an acryon vote!

You want to live through D1?

I'd be all too happy to lynch acryon.

[Carrot and Stick]

their ISO

reeks

of attempts to manipulate through appeals to authority.

^{[citation needed]}

335 feels like theater, as if they hadn't reviewed the posts of their slot first. Are we really believing that?

Given that I read games chronologically and thus post 25 doesn't exist until after I've read post 24? Why yes. Yes we really are believing that. I wasn't caught up, and thus I had no idea where my slot was voting. I broke the chronology rule to check where the vote was placed. But I enforce it strongly otherwise. I never read posts, not even my hydra's posts, unless reading chronologically.

From someone who claimed ignorance to my later readslist, this is something particularly egregious. (Basically, it's hypocritical to not consider that I use this method when this very method is what you used to justify your content.)

327 starts with garbage. Saying 4 of the 5 people are scummy as of post 20. This should be the first red flag.

I'm not going to requote myself for why that's incorrect, but I have a DIFFERENT reason for quoting this.

What makes you point out my list, and yet...

Could be scum, wouldn't be surprised: {Bujaber, LUV}
Would lynch: {Paradox, IB, N_M}

...Ignore this from Mathdino?

330 I have already commented on, but has fully half the game in scum category. If this isn't building up a massive lynch pool, then I don't know what is.

Except...

Iconeum
BuJaber

(notable gap)

Beefster
The Worst

(small gap)

alban/marshy
InfernoBrafin
Kthxbye
Lil Uzi Vert

(rather some gap)

TheGoldenParadox

(big gaping canyon of a gap)

Momrangal
Mathdino
acryon

About this at the end of seven.

Final readslist is:
Lil Uzi Vert/Almost50
alban/marshy/Not_Mafia
Iconeum
BuJaber
TheGoldenParadox
InfernoBrafin

(notable gap)

The Worst
Beefster

(small gap)

Kthxbye

(big gaping canyon of a gap)

Momrangal
acryon
Mathdino

Mathdino is in his scum meta. I know the difference between him and Mathblade, but trying to imply I think he's them when it was clearly a typo on my part is the latest in the reasons why he's scum. (I might mentally type 'Mathblade' when I mean 'Mathdino', but I would never confuse the two as players. Not least of all because Mathblade is a close friend of mine that I have interactions with outside of mafiascum whereas Mathdino is more of a close associate.)

...My actual play doesn't match what you say. I didn't build up a lynchpool. I SHRANK it. I shrank it to be precisely three names, and three names ONLY. The exact number of scum to expect in a mini theme especially one modconfirmed to be singleball town vs. groupscum only. No less, sure...but also no more. There was also a clear evolution in reads. I demonstrated more or less exactly where and why the reads were evolving, even.

Acryon is treating my readslist in 330 as if it were the final product, when it was the first prototype and one I self-confessed in multiple ways was flawed and I knew it to be flawed. So I worked on fixing it. He's acting as if I didn't.

[Carrot and Stick]

Oops. That was meant to be posted with this.

BuJaber's methodology is such that he is not one making friends; everything he does is antagonizing people.

What. The fuck. Are you reading?

The game.

BuJaber "cheerleads" players which he townreads and he feels raise good points.

This is not scum behavior. (I mean it's not necessarily town behavior, either; I'd call it either NAI or very slightly town indicative, but in no realm is it scum indicative.)

BuJaber is antagonistic with players which he scumreads.

This is not (often) scum behavior. (When it is it is usually to mimic town meta of doing the same.)

He has more neutral interactions with reads he has as more neutral.

This is not (often) scum behavior.

Or to put it another way,

Outside of his first post and his pushes back on me and his pushes on IB he's very much a cheerleader

"Outside of all these moments which are actually important moments in the game, he's a cheerleader".

[Carrot and Stick]

I would've loved to have been the first to vote C&S, but unfortunately they were active during times when I don't play.

Oh?

acryon's vote looks opportunistic.

I think opportunism being scummy requires some amount of trying to look like it's something it's not. I was pretty up-front in my sheeping. I suppose you're welcome to not believe that I actually felt what I felt, but calling it opportunistic when I was so open about it seems

opportunistic

.

I'd love to hear your explanation for how these two stances aren't mutually exclusive with one another.

[Carrot and Stick]

I can't wait for mastina to come back and post walls about how she's not this scummy as scum

Sorry, that's your forte not mine since you're the one who drew scum.

[Carrot and Stick]

IF DINO FLIPPED TOWN WHO WOULD BE SCUM

Funny that you ask that when you have no answer to the very same question on BuJaber.

I do:
acryon remains as scum regardless of Mathdino. While interactions suggest they are scumbuddies, acryon remains individually a scumfuck even lacking them.
You, Momrangal, remain as scum regardless of Mathdino. While interactions still tell me scumbuddies, I'd think you scum even lacking them.
Beefster would be my best bet for a third to fill the gap Mathdino would leave. It doesn't have nearly the same level of scumbuddy interactions admittedly, so I wouldn't hold nearly the same level of confidence, but he's the read which I'd most think would fit the pattern of scum.

I'd not consider BuJaber as scum a moment before D3.

Do you still say you have no answer for BuJaber?
And for that matter do you still not have scumbuddies FOR BuJaber?

[Carrot and Stick]

i'm not even scumreading paradox

Oh?

If you told me you weren't really scumreading InfernoBrafin in this post I'd believe it given your attitude towards them has been ranting at "incompetent-town" (the perspective you seem to always take on them) all game long.

This certainly isn't a descriptor I'd apply to Paradox!

[Carrot and Stick]

1. i have 0 track record of faking anger as scum and multiple people in this game can confirm that

You know you should PROBABLY have told RC not to release the scum PT if you wanted to use this line, given... Subject: Anything uPick: Scum PT

i'd be upset as town too, albeit grateful for the win

Subject: Anything uPick: Scum PT

ironically, the posts you're calling fake were out of actual legit frustration at reading mastina's utter waste of time posts

Subject: Anything uPick: Scum PT

well i legitimately got pissed off
on most sites that gets me lynched but here it gets me strong townread

so maybe OFG and ginngie will break up

^This is a biggie.

It not being fake does not make it town.

I know you're genuinely frustrated with InfernoBrafin. I've zero doubt about that. In fact in this point I so strongly believe you sincerely are frustrated with them that I'd be willing to defend you against anyone calling the anger faked--it's not.

The thing is, just because it's real doesn't mean it's town.

Quite the opposite, if you actually were town who thought that InfernoBrafin was scum you

wouldn't

be upset at them the way you are. InfernoBrafin if scum would be by pushing you just playing to their wincon. (Well assuming Mathdino-town, InfernoBrafin-scum.) The very fact that you are sincerely frustrated then is the evidence you are scum because if you were town you wouldn't be this ticked off at a player who you thought was scum.

[Carrot and Stick]

the idea that i'm basing all my reads around gut is utterly laughable

Funny, because by your own words the idea that you're basing all your reads around gut is the idea driving your D1 townplay, unless you want to rescind something from this post:

D1 of minis I mostly play off gut.

So if the idea of basing all your reads around gut is laughable, and yet D1 you play mostly off of gut...

...What does that say exactly about your alignment?

[Carrot and Stick]

What makes you so sure that dino is scum?

Mathdino's posts have, consistently, been about appearing town.
Mathdino's posts have, consistently, left the lynchpool nice wide and open.
Mathdino's posts have, consistently, been treating scumreads as if town.
Mathdino's posts have, consistently, not been playing to his self-professed style of play as town.
Mathdino's posts have, consistently, had interactions suggesting he is scum with other players who I have scumread. (Most strongly, acryon, but also Momra.)
Mathdino's posts have, consistently, had inconsistencies in them. InfernoBrafin's points against Mathdino are by and large mostly inaccurate, but this is one point they raised which

isn't

wrong; they are rather right about this fact. Mathdino's posts have been filled with inconsistencies and hypocricies.
Posts of other players who I have scumread (most strongly, acryon, but also Momra) have, consistently, had interactions suggesting that their scumbuddy is Mathdino.

This isn't a complete list, and none of what's in the list I explain in this post in detail, but if you iso me and check out my other posts both past and present (and maybe even future), you'll be able to see where I bring most of these up. Though I admit that a few of them have probably gone underexplained.

I don't understand how 345 is a scumclaim from dino at all.

I've come close to explaining it already but will explain it properly...well, soonish. The moment I finish catching up I'm going to bed for the night since I work tomorrow.

How is it scummy for mathdino and acryon to be on the wagon, especially since acryon is the first vote on Inferno, a position that is placed under a decent bit of suspicion.

It's scummy for Mathdino to be on the wagon because simply put he should know better.
It is scummy for acryon to be on the wagon because while his vote was RVS,
-It was a scum RVS vote,
-He kept the vote even past RVS,
-He gave no reason to keep the vote past RVS, except...
-...For when he gave a justification that would leave him with zero accountability for having been on the wagon. ("It was for content and pressure!")

For you though, I feel that you know what you're doing.

I do know what I'm doing! (For the record, me stating that I know what I'm doing? Very first time you could say I'm invoking an appeal to authority, yet this post is made way way waaaaaaaaaay after acryon's bullshit accusation of me having done so, but I digress.) That I know what I'm doing is something which I would hope give you some amount of trust in me.

It is not often I am this confident in my reads.

I know it is possible for my read to be wrong.

But all signs point to it being right.

Everything clicks with Mathdino as scum.
It's much, much, much harder to see a world where he'd be town.
And I have already stated that I take full responsibility if he does in fact flip as such.

[Carrot and Stick]

i'm just done, i want that slot out of the game
i believe that makes it more likely they're in a scumslot together

Free townpoints to the player who can name the reason why these two sentences don't mesh together!*

*Townpoints are void if read changes. Townpoints are valid for one readslists' timeframe only. Terms and conditions subject to change, at the discretion of mastinaco. Offer only valid if answer is correct.

[Carrot and Stick]

mastina also doesn't bus, so we can be almost certain Math v C&S isn't SvS. It could still be TvT though.

Actually, I do, I just bus in preplanned, strategic smart ways which guarantee the long-term success of the scumteam. Nothing on D1 can tell you that's not me this game, but time will make it apparent eventually.

I legit don't know who's voting whom and for what reason anymore!

For the record Almost50, it has not escaped my notice that you haven't engaged my posts.

New slots of interest include Acrayon. So far he feels IIOA and not actually being productive.

A great way to stave off the accusations of you being scum with acryon would be for you to vote there!

[Carrot and Stick]

would it help you if i actually read that

Well let me put it to you this way:
If you respond to it, I promise you I will not call the act of having responded to it a scumclaim. (Though I reserve the right to call contents of the response scumclaims if the contents of the response are in fact scumclaims.)
If you don't respond to it and yet do productive stuff, I will not call the act of having not responded to it a scumclaim since you did productive stuff.

If you don't respond to it and yet you do...well basically exactly what you're doing right now?

That's the scumclaim.

[Carrot and Stick]

state exactly what you're gonna do if you're wrong or y'all get lynched after my flip, mastina
i can't read you under this tunnel

Bluntly, I'm not getting lynched if I push a mislynch through.
I'm not even getting lynched if I do so consecutively and push two mislynches through.

I mean.
I'd feel bad.
I'd take full responsibility.
I've already stated as much, that I am to be held fully accountable for any mistakes I make and given that I am not a scumhunting goddess it is a given that I am going to have made mistakes. Which I would regret, and apologize for given they'd be my fault.

But I wouldn't get lynched for having done so.

That being said, there's no reason to not respond anyway.
If I am wrong once, nothing changes. My reads are more or less such that short of extreme measures I've no reason to doubt them. Being wrong once is not extreme measures in of itself. Thus not a single thing would be different.

If I am wrong twice, then everything changes. I start over from scratch, and I use the data from the first two days--specifically, being wrong twice is a very good way to gather data on all the other players who survive to that point in that if this comes to pass, the ACTUAL scum now have had two full days of believing they've gone with impunity, and thus they're vulnerable to being caught when I give my reevaluation.

I can give no promises at any stage given that I cannot know the events of the game.
But one thing I can promise?

I only need plans for what to do if I'm wrong when I'm actually proven wrong. I have the initial workings of one, but my plan is to not have a need for it. Yeah I know it's something I'd inevitably likely need given that I'm not a scumhunting goddess, butstill. The plan is to never be wrong (even though that plan is never one which survives the game) in the first place.

[Carrot and Stick]

Carrot, let's talk about Momrangel. I read many of his posts as pro town. Even trying to 'seperate' the 2 bulls in their hornfight I read as pro town. I also see good content re scumhunting in his ISO.
Where is the scumread coming from?

Because bluntly I see none of those things and while it's been all too long since we've played extensively together Momrangal is a close friend of mine who if she were actually town I would expect to see those things in. There was nothing town in the "separating two bulls hornfighting" for instance, and I've disagreed with just about every point she's raised when scumhunting.

Momrangal and I don't always synergize well, but at least traditionally, FAR more often than not? She and I have had reads and reasoning which more or less loosely aligned and had said synergy, where we would be able to synchronize and build off of one another's content. That is utterly absent from this game; nothing she's given me is something I can really say I can use.

There's a lot more to it than that but this is one of the main driving factors.

[Carrot and Stick]

I expect that it'll at least be indicative that the person I'm engaging with is being idiotic. I'm not defending my alignment to IB, and I think you think I am. I just want that whole conversation to end.

Spoiler alert:
You can't both call IB idiotic while calling them scum.
And yet you've been attempting exactly that.
The ideas are mutually exclusive and yet you've been trying to have both, to have the cake while eating it.

That's what I meant.

You are genuinely frustrated with InfernoBrafin--this is unquestionable. This is fact, absolute fact.

And yet.

If InfernoBrafin were scum, then you wouldn't need to be frustrated at them. They wouldn't be idiots if scum; they'd just be SCUM if scum.
If InfernoBrafin is town, only then would you be able to call them idiotic. Frustration comes from believing or knowing a player is town. If you were frustrated with InfernoBrafin and took the stance they were town, then your posting would be, comparatively speaking, internally consistent.

But at every step of the way.

You've insisted they're scum.

Which is not internally consistent, because again. There's no reason to be frustrated at a player who is playing to their wincon rather than being an idiot.

I'm concerned with the fact that my flip wouldn't actually change your view of the game, mastina.

Tell me what there is to change given that your reads so heavily clash with mine such that I wouldn't believe them even with you flipping town. Tell me what there is to change if other than you nothing developing in the game surprises me. Not from YOUR perspective. From MINE. Off of my stances. What changes with you as town? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Because my reads in the game are not dependent on you being scum; I formed each and every single one of them individually.

There's nothing stopping me from analyzing D1's info on D3. Before then, before being wrong twice. There simply is no need. I have zero issues with this as my stance:

"All 3 of my scumreads are literally the scumteam, and, well, if Mathdino's town, then all my other scumreads are the scumteam I guess".

If you do, tough. Not my problem. It's my choice, my stances, my reads. I don't have any plans to change now. That will only change if there is good reason. You flipping town would not be good reason. Yet that's all hinging around a scenario I don't even think exists.

I am under no obligation to change my reads from being accurate to being inaccurate. I am only obliged to do vice-versa.
I believe Mathdino is scum.
If this belief changes be it a shift in read or Mathdino flipping town, I will continue pursuing my other suspects, as changing my correct scumread on them to be incorrect would be rather the bad idea.
If my belief changes or this belief proves incorrect, I will reevaluate, reassess, generate new reads. And upon getting levels of confidence comparable to now on Mathdino, the same principle applies. I'm under no obligation to reassess and change a correct read into a wrong one just for the sake of changing reads. I am obligated to reassess and change incorrect reads into correct ones.

My decision is final. I'm not lynching outside of Mathdino/acryon/Momrangal today. Probably Mathdino/acryon.
Outside of extreme circumstances, I'm not lynching outside of those three on D2.
Nothing anyone does and says can change that on D1.
It can in fact change on D2 under said extreme circumstances but most likely nobody will change it then either.

[Carrot and Stick]

You also previously pointed out that MD doesn't think IB to be scum, rather 'wrong' town.

Except the problem is.
Mathdino keeps SAYING he thinks IB is scum.

There's a dissonance between Mathdino's actions and words.

Mathdino's actions say he thinks IB is "wrong town", as you put it.
Mathdino's WORDS say he thinks IB is scum.

The two contradict and therein lies the problem.

If Mathdino thought IB was wrong town, then the frustration could come from town.
Except Mathdino has, consistently, maintained the stance that IB is scum, and thus the frustration does not make sense coming from town.

[Carrot and Stick]

i'm finally understanding why people have en masse called mastina's playstyle anti-town
she pops on for however long and is always in catchup mode
which derails the conversation onto her posts... only for her to wait to catch up and do it all again

Oh hey this is once more indicating that you already think me to be town and yet works as shade for my slot.

and yes, i'm entirely self-aware of the fact that i'm doubling down on being willing to lynch most players in this game

Hmm...who was it who said that one thing I'm thinking of...ah yes! Now I remember!

I disagree that self awareness nullifies the scumminess of actions

[Carrot and Stick]

failing to recognise that some of the things she's pointed out are actually conscious choices in how i play in order to maximise gains from talking to others (and also to be more charismatic)

Hey wait a sec.
Now you're saying that the calculator things I'm seeing from you ARE intentional?
Then what happened to this?

Anyway point is your take on my play (especially my D1 play) being like a calculator is really not accurate as of me coming back (which is why I figured you thought I was Mathblade). Like, yeah I turn into a calculator when the playercount goes down (you should see me in micros) but D1 of minis I mostly play off gut.

I've also gotten a lot more confident lately (which is helped by a few towngames where I was basically right for all of D1), and either people are around to rein me in, or they're not.

When I push early wagons, I expect that others will weigh in. I'm glad you disagree on the IB read, because we can actually talk about it (instead of me and IB shouting at each other for pages on end). I can easily get locked in tunnels in "sub-par towns".

I'm not glad that you chose to just call IB obvtown and base your read on me around that, though. So it would be pretty nice if you explained why IB is obvtown.

...Where you said you don't have them?

[Carrot and Stick]

you at no point have talked to me as if i'm town to try to actually change my reads or my play for the better this game
that is the definition of a tunnel

Of course I'm not talking to my strongest scumread as if they were town, that's what scum do. I've given you plenty of what I'd do if you were town though and you continue to pretend that content is nonexistent.

Just because you being town doesn't mean I do anything different doesn't mean the content is nonexistent or that you can call it a tunnel. A tunnel is REFUSING to give the idea of you being town or having everything reliant on it. I have not and I do not. I've given it--nothing changes because my reads don't rely on you being scum. Your townflip gives me nothing new; your scumflip gives me nothing new; I am assuming the latter is what I am working with because that is my read but I have been rather unambiguous.

you can't explain why my IB read is wrong but you're willing to devote pages upon pages of unreadable walls trying to convince me i'm scum?

Nope! I'm not talking to you in those walls, I'm talking to the rest of the town. You may note that I may often start addressing you in second person and then shift, transitioning into talking about you in the third person. Because you're not my audience. Other players are.

I do occasionally talk to scumreads, at least in part because I am naturally verbose and I can't shut up even if I try. But usually this is more of side-chatter rather than a central focus point.

Also I did in fact do the best I could to explain my read; what I

haven't

seen is an actual explanation for a scumread when everything stated is instead ranting about "idiot town" with the scumread there as an afterthought.

[Carrot and Stick]

2. my plan is to improvise after you're dead

Yep! Which is how any town player should play, because towns don't know for sure what will happen.

SCUM have plans.
SCUM know what they will do far in advance.
Town players can't. They can say they do, but they can't. Not really. They can try in some occasions but because they don't know what information comes up they can't give guarantees.

One of my main issues with your play is that you

have

been making those plans. On D1. The very last day that town make plans on. And which you yourself said you don't make plans on.

[Carrot and Stick]

'Lynch player x whom I read as scum, but he could def flip town but that's ok I take full responsibility for it'.

Except I was rather explicit.
There's probabilities, plausibilities, and possibilities.
Mathdino COULD flip town--it's a possibility, yes.

It is not a probability.
It's not even a plausibility.
It is an incredible extreme improbability.

I read Mathdino as scum.
It is a fact, FACT. That he COULD flip town.
It is also a fact. That I don't think he will. (Or if not then it's a fact that I've been as explicit as is possible that I've stated such.)
The two do not contradict because they are both true.

I really don't get how this is hard to understand. It's self-explanatory.

'Oh yeah, I also will not look at his reads even IF he flips town because fuck it I'm awesome'.

Oh I will.
Just not on D2.
Because I don't trust his D1 reads to give me scum on D2.

I do trust them to give me scum on D3.

This really isn't that difficult.

'And oh yeah, I'll even mislynch a second time without hesitation and IF i'm wrong, well MAYYYYBE i'll re-investigate'.

That's not what I said?

I said that after mislynching a FIRST time, then "well MAYYYYBE i'll re-investigate" as you put it.

After mislynching a SECOND time, then I am

guaranteed

to reinvestigate. Not maybe. Not could. WILL. Guaranteed. 100% if I am alive by that point in the game. Relook, reconsider, reevaluate, rethink, reread, redo, everything.

The two should not be conflated.

'You guys won't lynch me even after I lead this town to multiple mislynches BECAUSE YOU NEED ME'.

You won't lynch me mostly because I'll have lynched 1-2 scum but in the worst-case scenario where I don't, you won't lynch me because there's a chance I'll be the nightkill even though it's not the plan and in the case where I am both alive and without having lynched scum you won't lynch me simply because you won't lynch me. There's no "you need me" there. It's just a fact. I am not getting lynched this game. Simple as that.

[Carrot and Stick]

There was no PR claim. Stop insinuating that.

Correct. There was only a statement of a fact that I will not be lynched this game. I make those statements often. (Probably as both alignments.) They're never wrong, mind you. When I say it I am always right about it. But a statement of "I will not be lynched this game" is not a PR claim. It is a statement of a fact.

People are free to insinuate I'm a PR if they'd like, I guess. Won't stop them. But they do so at their own discretion since I am explicitly saying that I'd say the same thing regardless of role if in fact it was an accurate statement. And this game it is. I know for a fact I will not be lynched this game. Nothing more than that, but also nothing less.

[Carrot and Stick]

VTs just don't say shit like that.

I mean feel free to think that if you'd like but you're failing to account for this being mastina.

The problem I have right now is that I find a lot of what Carrot is posting, makes sense. I don't agree about MD, but I can see scum in acryon.
And I still hate the way carrot's going on about it. Let's just say I have a problem with that big ass ego. It's anti-town because you won't create a strong town core acting like that, even if you are right.

Hey remember what I said about BuJaber?

BuJaber's methodology is such that he is not one making friends; everything he does is antagonizing people. That's easy for less-experienced/skilled players to misinterpret as scum, but it's quite the opposite.

Guess how I know this is a town style in the first place?

I am an

ass

as town. If I'm nice, I'm scum. Simple as that, really, because as scum I need to make friends for the long-game but as town my goal is one thing and one thing only: lynching scum.

I am not here to make friends.
I am not here to be nice.
I am here to find and lynch scum.

[Carrot and Stick]

MD, why do you need someone to hold you accountable for anything? If you are town, that should be motivation enough to do the scumhunting. Like you said, it's your own choice.

Also it should not surprise you that my answer to this is "because he's scum".

[Carrot and Stick]

Carrot, seeing how sure you are about your reads, you are still willing to lynch acryon over MD on D1?

Absolutely, yes. Almost moved my vote there when you did earlier.

VOTE: acryon.

[Carrot and Stick]

What is best for town? This discussion, or finding a more suitable wagon?

Wagon which mind you is why I was talking to others about Mathdino and acryon in the first place.

[Carrot and Stick]

Anyway I am literally two hours overdue for bed (I'm getting four hours of sleep for what will be a 14+ hour day of continuous work), so I need sleep.
Will chat with Assembler when I can set a discord account up for use (mod asked, Assembler said either, mod gave discord but mod didn't ask me so I didn't get to say that discord is less convenient so Assembler may have talked to me already and I've been entirely unaware of it because I need to set discord up).

[Carrot and Stick]

Also because she fucking nails it with all her posts about me.

To be honest, this is a little disconcerting to hear since while I

do

do that often,
1: I normally only do so for players I have intimate knowledge of, and
2: Even given that I usually am only "dead on the money" when I am scum who knows precisely what to say.

Hearing you describe me that way when I'm not scum and I don't know you is confusing because I don't know how I did it.

Mastina you haven't once interacted directly with me.

I comment on things which I feel are worth commenting on--most of your content hasn't been something which I have really thought of as engagement-worthy. Note that just because I haven't, doesn't mean your content is 'unworthy'. It's just not something I put much effort/thought into, is all. I'm not sure how to explain this in a way which doesn't come across as an insult because I am absolutely not trying to insult you.

I suppose I can say it this way. I am working two jobs right now, each five hours long and between prep/drive/lunch/etc. time added to that, I have a 14 hour work day. I am also someone who walls every time she replies to people. I explain things extensively, and while I am a very fast typist, this is still time consumed. If I miss a day of posting, I get further behind than I normally would.

All of these combine with one final factor, an active choice to not be a spamposter commenting on literally

everything

. When I make posts, I attempt to optimize the signal:noise ratio. I do let myself make noise, but I absolutely don't want said noise to drown out the signal.

So altogether, what I'm left with, is picking and choosing my battles. The most "interesting" things, I talk about; the less interesting things, I may note (in fact I almost always do), I just choose not to spend time responding to them directly. If I feel they become relevant, I can always reference them later.

Also, I'm always open to dialogs when there's a channel open which I am actually receptive to. (For instance, asking me to talk about five, ten reads of mine and how they differ from yours? Not receptive to it. Talking about a singular read and wanting me to explain my stance? Receptive. Asking me to talk about a read I've already given everything I've got? Not receptive. It's not exactly something user-friendly to navigate, but trial and error is useful--ask, see what I respond to, and if I don't respond, ask something else instead.)

Why is day 1 still not over? Can someone answer me this?

Easily. Almost no mafiascum town actually gets a quicklynch, regardless of composition of players and regardless of the scumteam composition within those players and regardless of the alignment of the players wagoned.

Furthermore, if scum avoid being blatantly opportunistic on a town mislynch it's hard to get a lynch through thanks to their caution; inversely, if scum avoid bussing on a scum lynch wagon, it's hard to get a lynch through thanks to their refusal to bus.

This is great information to use!

...Just.

...Not on D1. This is a D2, D3 point to revisit. You'll probably be alive then (no offense meant), would highly recommend doing so.

"You won't lynch me for mislynching twice because I am more likely to lynch 1 or 2 scum" huh?

Not quite. You won't lynch me. I am likely to lynch one or two scum. But even if I mislynch once or twice, you're still not going to lynch me in spite of that.

Also Mathdino's read on acryon was...ironically enough given his stated stance of acryon, underwhelming in of itself.

[Carrot and Stick]

This is a really good point and I'm actually strongly townreading framing recent events in this way. I say this before doing the ISO of Bujaber, but it is what it is.

You're not wrong! I mean it doesn't say anything about your alignment, but it's a true statement regardless that it was in fact a good point far more likely to come from town than from scum even if it's not a point I fully agree with.

And it's helpful because I want people to start looking at the game differently because I suspect strongly that there is a lot of TvT tunneling and the scumteam have mostly been taken a passive approach. Because otherwise I think we would be at a different game state. There have been like what 4 1v1's that ended up in a stalemate.

This is a fine example of refining a good point to be even better--I don't even have any disagreement with it and am close to in full agreement with it. It's incredibly valid. It's also something relevant to D1 and yet also another point which is never obsolete; you could analyze this section of the game on D4 and this information would be just as good to have. Better, actually.

Mom I have pushed but I'm not getting a lot of people to agree on.

This is a fine example of where you can ask me for help!

I mean.

I might not vote her immediately but I'd ultimately wagon her; I'm far too swamped with life stuff (my god this is my only game right now and yet it alone in spite of being a mini is frankly too much for me to handle already) to case her at the moment but I'd do what I could to help explain my stance there, so. I'd do what I'm capable of doing.

[Carrot and Stick]

but you don't see how it looks a little convenient that you posted an ambiguous list that appeared to show a large portion of the game as possibly on your scum-radar, which you could then theoretically draw from later on and claim you had an early read to that effect?

Sure I guess--but that kind of behavior is postgame braggart behavior. As in. "See? Look at these early scumreads! I was totally right! I was thus awesome this game, you can just ignore all the suckiness which followed which wasn't my fault." I can read it as being that, yeah, easily enough.

But while that's an asshole-tell, it's not a scumtell. I cannot see any world where it'd be one because there's no narrative where that makes sense coming from scum.

Are you of the opinion that pressure does not help mature everyone's reads but causing players to respond?

While I am, this is a blatant deflection. Even if you are of the option that pressure is useful (it's not), it's still not taking accountability for the vote. It is stating the vote was justified, which is a convenient way of voting town. (This is one of the contributing reasons to the policy vote from Mathdino being scum albeit far from the only one.)

Surely you see the difference here.

Not really, no. Calling that number of players scum doesn't have an expiration date on being a point. Page one of D1's no different than page 100 of D1 for that. Too many is too many; too few is too few. Both are equally damnable although you can argue one's worse than the other be it in general or in specific circumstances.

Except the problem is you posted it. Final product or not, this could be drawn upon later in the game as "some initial gut scum-reads" that you build upon as needed.

This is not a counter to my point. My point is that you acted as if nothing had changed, when it had, and that furthermore you are ignoring the places in my posts where I acknowledged the NEED for my reads to change--I said I needed to change them, and I did change them. Both of these were in my posts and you ignored both factors.

I would've loved to have been the first to vote C&S, but unfortunately they were active during times when I don't play.

Oh?

acryon's vote looks opportunistic.

I think opportunism being scummy requires some amount of trying to look like it's something it's not. I was pretty up-front in my sheeping. I suppose you're welcome to not believe that I actually felt what I felt, but calling it opportunistic when I was so open about it seems

opportunistic

.

I'd love to hear your explanation for how these two stances aren't mutually exclusive with one another.

I'm not sure how you see these as opportunistic, unless you believe I'm lying about IRL availability, which I take a very hardline approach on and view as unethical (which I suppose you can separately disbelieve). If I'm scum, I will gladly lie about whatever I need to in-game, but lying outside of game crosses a line IMO.

This is a nice counter to a point I never made.

The point I actually made still stands: You stated that your vote was a SHEEP VOTE.
You then stated that you would have voted me first.

These two statements cannot coexist; they are mutually exclusive with one another.

Thus, my comment; I would love to hear you explain how they are not. Which you failed to do.

[Carrot and Stick]

I would look at Dino, Acrayon and beefster.

Odd, this is my scumpool minus you and yet you seem to not be making a point of it.

[Carrot and Stick]

(Oh also voting the one which I am least confident in. Sorry, meant to include that in the post.)

[Carrot and Stick]

Acrayon is the odd one out in my tentative team. I still think his earlier posts are IIOA but his most recent posts are better. I can still see what he's thinking but I don't think he's really engaging with anyone still.
Acrayon is the one I want to least likely vote but I would push my support towards Dino

Frankly I think that honestly I might scumread acryon most of them all and given that, this is an especially problematic stance coming from you when crossreferenced with the pressure on acryon--I switched my vote there, Iconeum was pushing for a lynch there, etc.

[Carrot and Stick]

2. If this is scum!Mastina I need to think a LOT deeper.

You always need to think a lot deeper. Always. 100% of the time, every game, thinking on the surface level will lose you the game, it's by going deeper that you manage to get a win.

Always use more deep-level tools such as the driving motivation behind things. (This would be easier for me to reference if I had finished updating my glossary but it's only a fraction of the way there. Oh well.) It will never do harm. Yes, sometimes, scum go for surface-level plays...but they do so with motivation which can still be found using deeper-level thinking. In other words, you can still find them by going deeper even if it was only necessary to look at the surface.

Vice-versa is, quite obviously, not the case. While even the best of scum can in their laziness play surface-level if that's all they need to win, for the most part you're not going to succeed by relying on it. Especially not for catching a scumastina. (I may not be the best scum player on site, but I am ONE of the best scum players on site.)

FWIW, I don't think

anyone

knows how to play Dino right now. If you look at how people are handling him, everyone is in a pretty weird place I think. Even personally, I had him as a strong town-read but he's moved firmly to the middle for me.
I'm not sure what to make of that response to his own question. Maybe just not paying total attention, although that's likely NAI.

VOTE: Iconeum

If this wagon will get more traction than Beefster, I'm happy to vote Icon.

Okay so like.

I am dead tired right now and I honestly don't have it in me to explain why this is a pure unadulterated scumpost. I wish I did, would make my life easier if I could, but.

It's just a scum post in every way.

[Carrot and Stick]

However, so far I haven't seen a sign of Scum!Mastina. There's at least one scumtell of hers that I am very well aware of, and that doesn't seem to exist in here.

That's odd, considering that if I had to describe my play this game it would certainly be far, far, far closer to my scum meta than my town meta. (As just one example, I can cite apparently by BuJaber's account nailing his style down in spite of me having no prior experience with him, but there's many more things I've done which I've been like "you know I'm pretty sure I'd be doing this as scum but fuck it I'm doing it this game because I don't give a fuck".)

I agree with that, I think my natural bias against authoritarian figures reacted poorly to C&S' opening. I don't feel comfortable sorting Math or C&S today either but I think maybe both town maybe? Why does it need more traction?

Because at this point in the day, I don't want my vote sitting on a futile wagon, especially when my pull is so low.

AKA, "I want to blend in and not let my blatant opportunism be noticed".

[Carrot and Stick]

Everyone's been crumbing PR, gg.

On the note (no harm saying this with that knowledge) of closer-to-scumgame-than-towngame, traditionally in my towngames I open up with blatant-as-fuck breadcrumbs; as scum I might eventually breadcrumb but it's far more subtle and done far less often. This game might have the overtness of the former, sure, but it has the timing of the latter in that I've not been broadcasting it constantly as a neon sign. (Just giving the occasional hint now and then.)

If anyone actually gives a shit about why, I'll explain it in full.

In fact I do. Would go a long way towards telling me your push is genuine.

[Carrot and Stick]

Or would it be the kind of thing that self-awareness would prevent her from exhibiting?

A bit of a complex answer. I am the most self-aware player on the entire website. No seriously nobody does self-meta like mastina does, try reading my games be it town or scum and then just TRY to find someone who comes even close to matching me. (You won't.)

Furthermore, literally every player who has claimed they have some mystical mastina tell which *I* am unaware of has later gone on record to admit that they were either wrong or that their tell once worked but is now outdated and doesn't work.

...But yet. At the same time.

Just because I know of a tell doesn't mean I bother to change my play even knowing of the tell.

The reason why is because my scumplay is strictly formulaic. I found a formula which works FAR more often than not, and utilize it every game. Yet because "it only works once", I give it a dress-up every single time, such that the specifics change even though the underlying methodology is the same. You'd think that a game of powerbussing my scumbuddies would have a different formula from a game of hardcore scumblocking them, but in spite of the stark contrast behind them, the basic process still remains the same.

...So it is in fact possible to have tells on me. It's just that if they are actually tells, I already know of them even if people think I don't. I just don't bother to change them because I've no need to change them.

For what it's worth, regardless of my alignment you're always free to ask me about the differences behind my scumgame and my towngame and you'll receive a truthful, helpful answer. (Why a truthful, helpful answer as scum? Because of two basic factors. One, I am a cartoon villain; I like to gloat and telling you what I am doing as I am doing it is me being a cheeky scumfuck, one of the only ways for me to have fun when I am usually bored as scum. Two, because of Refuge In Audacity giving towncred, of "no scum player would ACTUALLY do that" which is exactly why I do it.)

I mean. I'd prefer not to bog the game down in it. It's talking about me and while I do like to talk about myself, talking about myself isn't scumhunting. But it's always available if you would find it an actually helpful resource. On that note, I have a cheatsheet for quick reference--the flowchart. (You may note I've ticked quite a few boxes from the scum half. While some are ticked from the town half, I always tick some town boxes when scum. There's a reason I find Almost50's lack of seeing scumtells a bit eyebrow-raising.)

Also, considering Iconeum's response to your reads, have considered a Chainsaw defense from his as scum being a possibility?

Nope! Not even once. Iconeum is either my strongest townread or ONE of my strongest townreads. (It's a little hard to tell, I have plenty of people who are just really freakin' town.) I've found absolutely nothing scummy in his actions. Quite the opposite in fact. While I don't agree with everything he says, the perspectives he takes are just...town.

[Carrot and Stick]

In other words, if I told you about the one "strong" tell I have on Mastina I will no longer be able to get a read on her in the future.

Prior history suggests you never have.

Btw 636/637 go a LONG way in reinforcing my The Worst townread. Thinking about it, the post series containing the original unvote also helps, too, so. There's another very, very, very, very strong townread. I actually think at this point that another readslist would be warranted given that yes players' positions have indeed been changing. I'll get one soon enough.

Iconeum/the worst are both town I'm pretty sure. Wild unexplained read change on the worst's part followed by a vanity vote on the most widely townread player in the game? Town.
I disagree with the idea that Icon is asking pointless questions or agreeing with the tone of the game. I think his presence has been distinctly pro-town (although I guess I might be biased). At the very least not getting lynched today ever. Townnn.

Reads are right, reasoning is absolutely wrong tho.

Acryon, in that entire big wall of a readlist you make, you come to the conclusion that Beefster is your most likely scum. You also vote him, but there is 0 effort in you pushing that case; There wasn't even a reference to Beefster in that entire post.
What's up with that?

It's because he's scum.
(This is another great Iconeum post btw because this is a very good point.)

[Carrot and Stick]

The only thing off about 654 was the 'probably' instead of 'definitely'.

Also this bumps Mathdino out of my scumpool believe it or not.

This is obviously not a "scum making case on doomed scumbuddy" instance.

I mean.

That kind of play does happen, but I'd like to think from past experience that I unlike SOMEONE in this game actually can identify it.

But I don't think it is.

And for that matter even if acryon flipped town, I wouldn't call Mathdino scum. The case was just something which had a strong town-driven motivation behind it and I don't see the scum agenda.

If acryon is a scumbuddy, then the case isn't one which looks like it's being made for the towncred.
If acryon is town, then the case isn't one which looks like it's being made for survivalism, and there's certainly no need for an acryon mislynch above all other mislynch options available to a scum-Dino world.
So regardless of acryon's alignment (scum), YES.

Official "Mathdino is getting a free pass" card.

[Carrot and Stick]

Assembler

Assembler might be waiting to post until I check in with him and we synch up and if so I do apologize--the earliest opportunity I'll have to talk to him is this Saturday given how busy I am before then. (Work tomorrow x2, then Emerald City ComiCon on Friday.)

so you're acryon's buddy bussing him right?

You'd THINK I'd be the first one to say this.
But no.

Surprisingly not!

Mathdino's town.

This is such a frustrating game. Effort is NAI, yet it's apparent that's what I'm being nailed on, and I wouldn't have signed up for this game if I knew that would be an issue (it hasn't in my previous mini's).
When I don't have a lot of time for a game, gut is going to play a larger role than other times.
I am Captain Strong, town 1-shot gladiator.

Gladiate: MathDino and Iconeum

Dino because I don't think town!Dino gives into peer pressure and builds this bad case. Iconeum because I think he is scum that got wind of people townreading him and decided he could ride on that, which shows his clear change in play from the early part of the day to the later part.

Okay.

So remember how I said gamechanging events?

Yeah this qualifies.

1: Anyone who claims a vig that does not vig the fuck out of acryon will be lynched.

No seriously. Cannot emphasize that enough. If a vig exists in the game, they shoot acryon tonight. NO excuses. No alternatives. No justification is acceptable. None whatsoever. Failure to vig acryon WILL result in your lynch later in the game.

2: We are no-lynching today.

We are not lynching Mathdino.
While I acknowledge theoretically there's the lolwifom behind gladiating a scumbuddy, acryon is a scumfuck who was going down and just gladiated two of the players overall most widely townread and strongest in being proactive AND both of them just so happened to be advocating for his lynch.

They are town.
We are not mislynching for the sake of lynching D1.
We are NOT going to lynch someone we already know is town.
Just because "but they could be scum in theory!". Sure they could be scum in theory, but they AREN'T. They're town. Period.

VOTE: No Lynch.

Any questions?

[Carrot and Stick]

Can you talk me through how you got from here to selecting these two players? Do you think they're scum together?

No.

He's scum, who scumclaimed.

He gladiated two of the town's strongest players.

To ensure that no matter which player was lynched, town lost, and not only lost a little, lost a LOT.

Iconeum was going to be protected from the nightkill tonight--THAT'S how town he was. Like I'm dead serious there's no player who could so much as HYPOTHETICALLY have been worthy of it except for Iconeum. And he was gladiated.

Mathdino is someone who was scumread more than Iconeum, sure, but in a world where he's town and there isn't enough support by default to lynch him and yet you can't use the scum nightkill on him without raising red flags (as in, the world which actually exists this game), what better way to get the extra votes necessary to lynch him than to gladiate him?

This turns players who previously were unwilling to vote for one/both/either into easily willing, ready, and able to vote one/both/either for whatever various stupid reasons.

The move was blatantly scum-driven, as scum driven as a scum-driven move can get.

It is absolutely NOT something you should let him get away with. Lynching Iconeum or Mathdino today will be playing into his hands. It will be doing what scum wanted. It will be doing scum's jobs for them, in lynching town who could have been the nightkill.

You absolutely do not allow that.
So we are no-lynching and if no vig takes out acryon we lynch acryon on D2. (And then lynch any vig who claims they didn't shoot him. Being roleblocked won't fly as an excuse btw. One reason why I've 'crumbed the way I have is because I know for a fact scum do not have a roleblocker.)

[Carrot and Stick]

I claim bodyguard. My alignment is sorted by the nightkill, as I've stated time and time again. I alluded to my end of day reads lost which I was gonna use to crumb my target. If anyone seriously questions this, I can go find more allusions, but I didn't breadcrumb because I literally just need to stop a kill to prove myself.

I was gonna protect Iconeum. Real nice call, acryon.

Hey Mathdino.

Remember how I said that my certainty in you being scum was akin to a gunsmith rather than cop guilty?

You claiming bodyguard makes that metaphor an apt one. So to speak, I have a 'result' which indicates "you have a role which circumstantially could be a specific alignment and I know this for a fact because of my own role". Normally, that's a gunsmith having a guilty result on a town vig. Similar principle applies here, in that I believe you are in fact actually a town bodyguard even though I recognize I have a 'result' which could say otherwise.

[Carrot and Stick]

(Also you should in fact protect Iconeum tonight. Which will happen when--not if, WHEN--we no lynch.)

[Carrot and Stick]

Acryon, you should've claimed before using your ability. Day PRs who try to play hero are what ruin role madness games.

The reason he didn't is because he was scum who knew he was boned without using his role. He still more or less suicided by using it...but by having done this, scum get a chance at a free mislynch on a player they'd normally never get mislynched and then a free nightkill, while town gets nothing because they already know the results.

Nobody's really going to vote you or Iconeum thinking they're voting scum.
They're going to vote you for the sake of the lynch.
Or "for information".
Or "because they COULD be scum".
Or so on and so forth, whatever various stupid idiotic reasons they can conjure up.

But if they are honest with themselves and ask themselves if they think they are ACTUALLY lynching scum.

Most of them would say no. (I mean yeah there'd be an outlier saying "yes I do in fact think I am voting scum", but by and large, no, not really.)

[Carrot and Stick]

I've literally never even gotten close to being lynched prior to day 3 in a game, so this has been very annoying to me. Although I get it's likely my fault for not being able to contribute as much.

Also note the repeated emphasis on "it's annoying". He's not really denying he's scum, he's basically admitting it. That yes he was caught, and that it's annoying he was caught.

On another note, a town player would use this ability to get himself out of trouble, AND force a duel between his own/majority scumreads. This feels very panicky and def not pro-town.

Precisely.

Acryon, you're capable of not making impulse decisions.

Yes, he is.

The fact that he did tells you...

...What, exactly?

(Yep. Scum.)

[Carrot and Stick]

Can probably predict the NK pretty well though.

Only if Iconeum isn't lynched!

[Carrot and Stick]

I need information about the gladiate ability, is it inherintly scum, town, or NAI?

Alignment: any

Especially in a role madness game, repeat after me.
Role != Alignment.
Role != Alignment.
Role != Alignment.
Role != Alignment.
Role != Alignment.
Role != Alignment.
Role != Alignment.
Role != Alignment.

Role does not equal alignment.
Possessing a role does not make one inherently town or scum. Fuck, my role's more a scum role than a town role and yet I am town this game.

Do you know what does determine alignment?

USAGE of role.

PLAY determines alignment.

Play > Role. 100% of the time. Always.

acryon's play is just about the most possible scum-driven play in existence. There is zero town motivation to suddenly have a fit of extreme self-preservation and gladiate two of the town's strongest townreads who are proactive and being fairly gamesolvey.

There is a self-explanatory, self-evident scum motivation in being self-preservative and gladiating two of the town's strongest townreads that are proactive and gamesolvey.

acryon is, 100%. Unambiguously. Undeniably. Scum. Period. There is no realm in existence where this is a town ploy. None. Nadda. Not even in theory, whatsoever. It is literally the most scumclaim play I've seen ever.

Rather seriously, this is akin to dayvigging an innocent child. It's THAT level of being scum, and has a similar effect, too.

acryon knew he was going down.
So he did something which would fuck the town over even if he did go down later because of it.

[Carrot and Stick]

Gladiator seems too powerful in the hands of scum, assuming 10:3.

No.

This is a fucking role madness game filled to the brim with powerful roles.

Scum absolutely need a strong, powerful roleset of their own to stand a chance, and robbing the town of a lynch is an excellent way to achieve that--especially if the power could have been used in lylo, giving scum a win a day earlier than the town was prepared for. (Granted most mods bar vote manipulation roles in lylo for exactly that reason, butstill.)

[Carrot and Stick]

I'd actually like to advocate for lynching A50 tomorrow, who I feel has been ignored as a slot by most of the playerlist.

For what it's worth my read HAS tanked but not to the point where I'd be comfortable considering lynching him before D3 at the absolute

earliest

.

I'd say you'd need a pretty powerful town to justify having scum that completely arrests town's ability to lynch that day.

Oh I understand you from the perspective of being a bodyguard holding that opinion given that you don't actually know what kinds of powers town and scum have off of your role.

But fortunately, I off of MY role

do

have exactly that and I can tell you that we have a fucking stacked town and thus the scumteam needed to be similarly stacked.

I never actually asked though.. acryon beef and I are you scumreads but do you think we're a team? Because that's crazy how does your brain even rationalize it.

There's no justification because there's no actual trajectory to acryon's reads. He was making shit up to justify stances after the fact--deciding what to do and then after having decided to do it coming up with reasons to make having done that thing be plausible.

[Carrot and Stick]

Wakes up
Sees a few pages
Sees a Gladiate
Is now leaving.

Comes home.
Sees more than a few pages, reads them.
Sees a gladiate, comments on it and stays.

I wonder what's different about these?

[Carrot and Stick]

You got it
Just know that there's likely no other protectives
I'm open to counterclaims

I am a protective. I was planning on protecting Almost50 ORIGINALLY for like a day, but then I realized between likely scum (and thus who they'd target), Almost50's towncred having waned, and Iconeum being the closest thing this game has to a universal townread that no way in hell were the scum shooting Almost50 and if they did then it'd be +EV for the town for them to have done it so I was more than happy to protect Iconeum the ACTUAL player most likely to die.

[Carrot and Stick]

And I'm not gonna do a damn thing until we get an answer

And thus you do nothing at a time where town absolutely would be doing something.

[Carrot and Stick]

I was going to do a full read of this, but after seeing the gladiator claim and hating D1s to begin with, I'm going to focus down on the 2 lychables for today (assuming it's a real role/action).
_____________________________________________________________

Though this is an easy choice to lynch MD over me. There's a divided playerlist over his slot, while I'm still overall townread. Lynching MD gives a much better start of D2 in any case.

I don't see how it's the easy choice to lynch MD over you. A quick ISO has me reading him town and you scummy. Town or Scum, I can take guesses as to why you are procrastinating on claiming, but I want to hear the reason from your mouth.
_____________________________________________________________
MD: Can I get an updated and condensed list of your town/scum reads please? Would you lynch you over Icon?

Okay yeah so kthx is scum this game. This is a scum entrance/reaction.

[Carrot and Stick]

What an interesting turn of events. I had scumreads on both of you...

I mean obviously Beefster/Momra/acryon/kthx aren't all scum but like.

You're just not finding scum outside of those four, aside from the slight possibility of Almost50 but even that's not likely.

Sec, should probably give this in readslist form.

[Carrot and Stick]

Iconeum
BuJaber
The Worst
InfernoBrafin
alban/marshy/Not_Mafia
TheGoldenParadox

Mathdino
Lil Uzi Vert/Almost50

Beefster

Kthxbye

Momrangal




acryon


I'd say this is about where I'm at.

[Carrot and Stick]

I don't think I would mind a mislynch.

Of course you wouldn't.

[Carrot and Stick]

acryon is more than likely town because scum gladiator essentially functions as a 1-shot governor, which is ridiculous by design standards.

Mathdino, no offense, but you have no design sense for setups. Your comparison is about right, but calling it ridiculous isn't--I've seen exactly that in a MICRO. Yes. Scum 1x governor. In a MICRO. I kid you not.

This is a mini.

Is it a good role, no, I frankly hate it. Doesn't change the fact that it's in the game and is NOT a town role.

Could it be a town role in theory, why yes yes it could, which is why you judge the role by the play driving it; by that metric, it's clear as day that acryon is a scumfuck.

[Carrot and Stick]

Her self meta is absolute shit
I believe she can be meta'd, just not on the tells she rants about

I mean you can say that all you'd like but you'll join the long list of players who have been proven wrong about me time and time again while I continue to get to brag about being right since me being me of course I'm right about me rather obviously. (To be fair. I don't know many aspects of myself, but I actively aim to discover them, which is more than can be said for anyone taking the policy you do. To know me even a fraction as well as I know me, you have to want to know me; if you don't, then you fundamentally cannot.)

All of these combine with one final factor, an active choice to not be a spamposter commenting on literally everything. When I make posts, I attempt to optimize the signal:noise ratio.

I do let myself make noise

, but I absolutely don't want said noise to drown out the signal

.

For what it's worth, regardless of my alignment you're always free to ask me about the differences behind my scumgame and my towngame and you'll receive a truthful, helpful answer. But it's always available if you would find it an actually helpful resource.

Literally said multiple times absolutely nothing is changing her read

Also this bumps Mathdino out of my scumpool believe it or not.

This is obviously not a "scum making case on doomed scumbuddy" instance. That kind of play does happen, but I'd like to think from past experience that I unlike SOMEONE in this game actually can identify it.

I don't think it is. And for that matter even if acryon flipped town,

I wouldn't call Mathdino scum

. The case was just something which had a strong town-driven motivation behind it and I don't see the scum agenda.

If acryon is a scumbuddy, then the case isn't one which looks like it's being made for the towncred. If acryon is town, then the case isn't one which looks like it's being made for survivalism, and there's certainly no need for an acryon mislynch above all other mislynch options available to a scum-Dino world.

[Carrot and Stick]

How the hell would you have known anything about my role to claim something akin to a GUNSMITH GUILTY on me?

By being a fucking counterclaim. I am a protective. My protective is not such that your role and mine cannot coexist in the town, thus it's a gunsmith guilty, not a cop guilty. My current standing is that you are more likely town and thus that our roles do in fact coexist in the town, but it remains possible for you to be scum. Sounds like a gunsmith guilty on a vig to me so the comparison holds.

[Carrot and Stick]

mastina please stop butting into 1 on 1 conversations just to tell one person the other is scum

I only do so when they raise a good point and yet they fail to realize it was a good point. It is a reminder that they raised the good point and that there is an obvious answer to their point.

[Carrot and Stick]

i'm at this point convinced that she started doing it as town to benefit her scumgames

Not quite.
My scumgame is good enough that I deliberately nerfed it for fear of being reverse-BoPed in that my scumgame was so good that it was a scumtell for me to be even remotely logical. In order to remain effective with said scumgame, I needed to tone it down such that it wasn't obvious to anyone familiar with my meta that I was playing to my scum meta. This was not done to sabotage my scumgame, but rather, to preserve the integrity of it.

Simultaneously, my towngame is shit enough that I've always strove to replicate the success of my scumgame by duplicating the successful elements of my scumgame in my towngame. This is not done as a NERF to the towngame--quite the opposite, it is intended as a BUFF to the towngame. Because me playing to my scum meta as town actually increases my competency and threat level as town, thanks to my town self comparatively sucking.

So yes I did make deliberate changes to my game, but for the

opposite

of the reasons you suggest. Done to save my scumgame; done to improve my towngame, rather than done to destroy my scum/towngame. (The latter is trust telling and explicitly against site rules. I would never sabotage my play as one alignment to increase my odds as the other. I do however 'sabotage' my play as an alignment in order to attempt an increase my odds as

that same alignment

. You can think of this as a metagambit of sorts, in that it is a gambit extending across my very gamestyle.)

i've seen mastina scum pass over half of those checks in that flowchart in one game

Yes and that was one of the best scumgames I've ever played as a result.

mastina has unconscious tells. i don't know them but i 100% know they exist.

Never said I don't. I'm sure I do! Quite positive in fact. I just don't believe the notion that anyone has genuinely picked up on any of them that I am not already aware of. (In other words, nobody is aware of a tell I am not aware of which is actually a tell.) It's one of those things which I firmly believe is possible "in theory" but in reality is literally impossible.

mastina's was just well written and enjoyable to read.

Hey I am a writer. My job is to string people along with narratives. (This is incidentally the reason WHY my scumgame is stronger than my towngame because the skill of narrative weaving has far more benefit to scum than to town. It has uses for town, but it's much, much, MUCH harder to harvest.)

[Carrot and Stick]

2. we protect each other, which almost certainly guarantees our survival into lategame (but likely results in one of us getting lynched)

I am never protecting you for exactly this reason: it is your fucking job as a bodyguard to DIE.

My plan will never change.

If you explicitly say you are protecting Iconeum, I will protect some other player not named Iconeum or Mathdino.
If you do not explicitly say you are protecting Iconeum, I will explicitly protect Iconeum.

I will not budge on this for any reason. Don't even try.

If the scum see it fit to nightkill you or me, so be it. Killing you removes you from the lynchpool; killing me proves my statement of me never being the lynch correct. Win either way.

If the scum elect to night kill me or you, then best we try to stop it, obv. And one of us should be on Iconeum since that was both of our plans originally. One, but not both. One to guard Iconeum, the other to guard a player who scum might nightkill outside of us three. (Iconeum/Mathdino/me.)

Do you disagree? (Well aside from the thought of Iconeum or you as the lynch. I'm obviously talking about no-lynching here and assuming a no-lynch do you disagree.)

[Carrot and Stick]

He also expressed a Math TR, Ico SR then voted No Lynch instantly

Indeed that is part of it.

Another is the Iconeum scumread in the first place.

Mastiiiina
Do you think a scum gladiatoriser makes sense with the notion that town can Opt to no lynch?

That's exactly one of the reasons it DOES make sense! Allowing the town the possibility to not lynch town is one of the reasons the role can be placed in scum's hands in the first place.

[Carrot and Stick]

you claimed a gunsmith guilty on me before i ever claimed my role

To the contrary! I did not

claim

a 'gunsmith guilty' on you before you claimed your role.

I claimed it after.

I

stated

the gunsmith thing a grand total of once before then, which was indeed before your claim. It served a particular purpose which was loosely but only indirectly related. I had good reason for that but given I've no interest in fullclaiming I shouldn't go into detail. My softing for my role is such that you'll probably understand exactly what I was doing/going for when I flip/fullclaim but before then will remain confused as to what the fuck I actually am. Given that I am firmly of the opinion that the ambiguity doesn't hurt the town and yet helps the town by not helping the scum, I'd prefer to keep it that way.

[Carrot and Stick]

Why would a scumastina go after no lynch, if it's TOP scumread for the majority of D1 is now being gladiated?

Because scumastina knows that a lynch is inevitable in spite of her advocating for a no-lynch and if at all possible prefers to be off of a mislynch. (In other words, while I am adamant we go for the no-lynch I am not expecting we'll actually achieve one. I happen to be town lamenting the loss of a town player as a result, but were I scum it'd just be smart play.)

i don't play all my cards upfront

I do.
Well, no, I don't, but when I don't play them I make it 100% unambiguous I'm not playing them and let you know that I have them.

Subtlety rarely has a place in scumhunting. (I mean in roles sure, subtlety is your friend but not in scumhunting.) Holding back is a good way to ensure that people misinterpret (be it accidentally or deliberately) what it was you were going for, which is especially problematic if you cannot correct them for whatever reason.

[Carrot and Stick]

@mastina

sorry if this is rude but would you mind focusing a little less on Math's posts while you catch up?

Sorry, but I'm obligated to talk to townreads and engage them on anything I deem pertinent.

I do skip a fair amount which I could choose to respond to, but there is a necessary level of communication to maintain dialogs.

2. we protect each other, which almost certainly guarantees our survival into lategame (but likely results in one of us getting lynched)

I am never protecting you for exactly this reason: it is your fucking job as a bodyguard to DIE.

(For the record, I also consider it my job to die. Preferably not immediately, which is one reason why openly claiming protective is sub-par, but I consider it an obligation for me to die prior to lylo via the nightkill. I'd expect the same of anyone with my role or Mathdino's role.)

Also, was pretty obvious but in case there is confusion:

If the scum elect to night kill me or you, then best we try to stop it, obv.

^Was obviously a typo there in that I meant "If the scum DON'T elect to nightkill me or you", or "If the scum elect to nightkill someone other than me or you". I crossed the mental streams combining the first half of the second with the second half of the first, ending up delivering the opposite of the intended message there.

[Carrot and Stick]

mastina you directed town protectives to be on me

No, I breadcrumbed I was planning on protecting Iconeum by stating Iconeum was who protectives should be on.

No protective should protect you.
No protective should protect me for that matter.

Protectives should be divided between Iconeum (one protective exactly, no more yet also no less) and other players.
It doesn't matter which is on Iconeum, so long as it is done.

[Carrot and Stick]

Mod: reminder I am V/LA until Saturday.

noted for mastina head.

If acryon is indeed scum, and both MD and Icon are town, then why would scum choose to gladiate these 2?

Because towns refuse to no-lynch. It is ingrained in their brains that they MUST lynch. They refuse to give it up, they refuse to forfeit the lynch.

The scum benefit in mislynching a player the scum would otherwise spend a nightkill on is self-explanatory. Players who were previously unwilling to vote either suddenly become willing to vote one if not both, to ensure a lynch D1. It is specifically BECAUSE it is a hard choice to make that acryon as scum forced it. No matter who wins, town loses.

If acryon was doing this just for survival he could have chosen better options to gladiate.

There was no survival. There is no survival. There are no players in the game acryon could force a gladiate between and have him end up coming out of it alive. There is only the delay. acryon was doomed. Nothing he could do or say would change that fact. Claiming wouldn't, using his action wouldn't. All it did was give him an extra amount of life...so that's why he used it in the way which would hurt the town the most. In other words:

If gladiating at that point was a scumclaim either way he would have done it in a way that ensures it actually works.

BECAUSE gladiating at that point was a scumclaim either way there was no way he COULD "make it work". There's no coming out of this with long-term survival.

If your slot is doomed and NOTHING you can do can change this fact, and yet you have access to a power which can hurt the town, tell me, how do you use it?
-In a way which won't actually help your faction (because as you yourself point out, taking out Mathdino isn't enough on its own)...
-...Or in the way which most helps your faction by causing the greatest harm to the town?

I actually have a relevant (albeit old) example of this believe it or not.

Check out what happened this game.
I basically had the entire scumteam pegged.
Watch the wagon on Kalimar grow--does this look familiar?

Look at how Kalimar responded.
Keep in mind that at the time I was the player with the highest-accuracy reads of all the players in the game (if you can believe that).

And look at that explanation! Sound familiar?

And look how long it took them to lynch the slot after that shot. Was the slot lynched after doing the most absolutely blatantly scum-motivated thing possible? Nope, it was left alive for days before finally being put down.

It's the same basic move this game.
Just replace "dayvig the player most threatening to scum" with "gladiate the players most threatening to scum". (And yes I firmly believe acryon believed that Iconeum and Mathdino were in fact the players most threatening to the scumteam.)

If he did know that no lynch is possible why waste his gladiate on 2 people unlikely to get lynched who he in fact did not strongly scumread?

Because it didn't matter what he did--no matter what, it was a scumclaim. No matter what, he wasn't walking out of this. No matter what, he was only buying time. So if escaping death is impossible, instead, maximize utility while alive. The maximum utility is not to gladiate players who could be mislynched without the gladiate.

Maximum utility for a scum gladiator is to gladiate players who can

only

be mislynched WITH the gladiate

.

And that's EXACTLY what he did.

he would not be heavily bussed by his buddies if they know he has gladiator (as they know his lynch will stop at any time)

To the contrary! Him being able to stop his lynch any time means that scum hold no fear of bussing.

Did they, probably at least one but no way of telling if both.

[Carrot and Stick]

I considered trying to begin to reply to you C&S, but I don't think a drawn-out defense is at all fruitful for town.

AKA, "I can't respond to the valid points she raised against me because they were in fact valid".

This shouldn't be ignored just because someone doesn't like my play, which I think is probably fair (like I said, first time with this role and first time in a role madness game). Like I said, even if someone thinks I have colossally screwed up, making another objectively bad decision (NL) doesn't fix that.

We don't dislike your play or think you screwed up.
We fucking think you're scum.

[Carrot and Stick]

The easiest explanation to your choosing me is simple: a panicking scum wants to get rid of a player they know is unlikely to be lynched.

Precisely.

I have explained why in the points acryon oh so conveniently has declared he will ignore.

There is no town trajectory to his stances. He went from having Beefster as his vote (and thus presumed strongest scumread which is backed by the readslist provided) with a conditional either-or scumread on BuJaber/Iconeum with Mathdino as null (and look at his justifications--Mathdino's a fencesitty read where he is incredibly noncommittal; Iconeum is a read which is only weakly insincere)...
...To suddenly gladiating both of them.

There is no explanation for the change; why wasn't Beefster the stronger scumread among the gladiate targets? While he said he'd vote Iconeum, that same post said Mathdino was null and that Beefster was still his preferred wagon.


There is no town motive behind his action. Why was his role now expended so important that he had to use it without warning? Why was his lynch so catastrophic that it needed to be avoided immediately? What viewpoint could that possibly fit under as town? That of a panicky, impulsive, irrational player? Except none of those things are acryon; acryon is a more calculated town player. He is the kind of person reasonable enough to be rational about it and calmly, cooly explain things.


There is a clear scum motive behind his action. Stave off the lynch of scum such that scum are guaranteed to not be lynched D1. Bonus points, it gives a shot at mislynching town players the scum would otherwise waste a nightkill on.

This is why lynching Iconeum or Mathdino is playing into scum's hands. It's doing their work for them. It is literally lynching a player they'd be forced to nightkill.

[Carrot and Stick]

Guys, not gonna lie, what's going on here is a classic case of town implosion

...He's in this game? I mean I don't doubt your read there but I legit didn't know he was even a player, I'll need to get back on you for my own thoughts there.

[Carrot and Stick]

So did acryon, who easily could've gladiators 2 town lurkers

Why gladiate players who can be mislynched without the gladiate?

Answer me that question.

Why would you, if you were scum, gladiate players who you know can be lynched without using the gladiate on them?

That is wasting the gladiate. Because players who can be mislynched without the gladiate...can be mislynched without using the gladiate. And thus should be left for later.

Also, point of fact; BuJaber commented on how the lurkers likely contained scum and he is not likely wrong there. If the lurkers contain scum, then the pool of "town lurkers" would in fact be rather small, so.

There's just a shitload of reasons why acryon has reason to do what he did as scum, and no reason to do anything else as scum.

[Carrot and Stick]

Acryon scum correct play was to not give us a choice that would result in no lynch

You act as if gladiates don't magically change players' willingness to lynch the gladiated players.

They do.

Like. Look at the number of players who were willing to vote Iconeum pre-gladiate.
Look at the number of players who were explicitly townreading Iconeum and defending him. (Fuck you're one of them.)

Look at the number of players who are willing to vote Iconeum post-gladiate. Or magically have stated suspicion which was nonexistent prior to the gladiate. (I can name names if you want but this isn't that hard to look at yourself.)

Notice a contrast?

You should. The number has skyrocketed. You can't just write that off as "oh maybe all those players were willing to vote Iconeum before and just didn't say anything". You of all people know that to be false given your own stance on Iconeum pre-gladiate.

You keep saying that the no-lynch is an assured thing.
It's not.

Fuck, the mod says that even if No Lynch has more votes than a gladiated player, if we don't have MAJORITY vote for a gladiated player then a gladiated player is lynched. That makes it TWICE as hard to achieve the no-lynch. It's not a default; it's not given; it must be deliberately done with an active majority.

Getting a no-lynch is next-to-impossible. You have to fight not only game mechanics, but game theory (players willing to vote someone they think is town), scum advocating for a pro-scum mislynch, AND town who genuinely believe that they aren't mislynching. Between the three, scum can be near-guaranteed that a no-lynch ISN'T going to happen.

So judging the gamestate on the assumption that scum would think we would is a mistake.

[Carrot and Stick]

To put it another way.
In order to achieve a No Lynch, you need:
-Seven players, who all:
*Believe that not only one lynch candidate is town,
*And not only that the OTHER lynch candidate is town,
*But ALSO that no lynching is better than mislynching.

And between the three, the no lynch is incredibly difficult to achieve.

Plus, that doesn't even go into the obvious point.

What's the worst that can happen with a scum-acryon using his power on two town from the perspective of a scum player?
We No Lynch, the game goes onto evens (which is pro-scum), unless either there's a killstop or an extra death during the night. acryon gets to live through the night. Scum get a free nightkill. We are left with less information than what we should have.

What's the worst that can happen with a scum-acryon failing to use his power on two town from the perspective of a scum player?
acryon who was in danger of being lynched gets lynched, forfeiting his power permanently. Scum are down one member, with many players as obvtown and no way to take them all out.

So EVEN IN THE SCENARIO OF NO-LYNCHING. Scum STILL get more by doing this than not doing it.

That doesn't even go into the best.

What's the best that can happen with a scum-acryon using his power on two town from the perspective of a scum player?
...A town player who was never getting mislynched is, suddenly...
...Mislynched. BAM. Oh and they still also have, acryon gets to live through the night. Scum get a free nightkill.

[Carrot and Stick]

Without elaborating on speculation on reads or night actions, I would like everyone to answer:
Who is more predictable when it comes to their protection night action?
A. Mathdino
B. mastina

Difficult to say, actually. You'd think this would be easy, but there's two factors muddying the water. First, if Iconeum is not my protect, I genuinely don't know what to do as my night action. If *I* don't know what I'm doing today if not protecting Iconeum, then that makes it harder to predict because how can you predict what even I don't know yet? (However, see below.)

Second, there is ambiguity to my role. I've stated I'm a protective but I've also softed half a dozen confusing things which players are probably scratching their heads about. I can guarantee you the scum have tried to figure out what my role is and there's a significant chance they got it wrong.

...

That having been said

.
Gun to my head, if forced to choose, I'd actually instead say that *I* am the more predictable person when it comes to a protective night action.

Not knowing my role doesn't mean much since they know it's a protective.
Furthermore, just because I don't know who I'd protect outside of Iconeum, doesn't mean it's not impossible to predict who I will when I do eventually know. By guessing at my methodology (and while there's a madness to it, it's not too terribly difficult to do), it's not too terribly difficult to find out who I'd select if not for Iconeum. I have no clue because I've put no thought in, but scum would put the thought in.

Given that, I would think me protecting Iconeum would be better since I am more predictable. However, I will not protect Iconeum unless I hear explicit word from you that you are not protecting Iconeum given that you state you will protect Iconeum if we don't hash this out. (In other words, my CURRENT assumption is you're on Iconeum; I will assume this until you tell me otherwise.)

Suspect the people who made no effort to increase town cohesion (but also weren't the driving fucking forces in stirring up maximum chaos).

I'd direct you first and foremost to Momra on that front btw. Speaking of Momra, more on her next post, got a little more to say there.

[Carrot and Stick]

And I'm not gonna do a damn thing until we get an answer

And thus you do nothing at a time where town absolutely would be doing something.

Ok. Lynch me tomorrow then

If acryon is vigged, absolutely, yes!

IF DINO FLIPPED TOWN WHO WOULD BE SCUM

Funny that you ask that when you have no answer to the very same question on BuJaber.
Do you still say you have no answer for BuJaber?
And for that matter do you still not have scumbuddies FOR BuJaber?

Since then your read has admittedly shifted such that you've stated the scumread on BuJaber has died--but little replaced it and the intent behind the question remains. Who are you scumreading and who's scum if they are town and what scumteams are you looking at.

I would look at Dino, Acrayon and beefster.

Odd, this is my scumpool minus you and yet you seem to not be making a point of it.

Why didn't you make note of reads similarities to me? As town, you would know my scumread on you would be wrong...and you would attempt a reach-out to me. You would try to get me to work with you.

You did not.

Acrayon is the odd one out in my tentative team. I still think his earlier posts are IIOA but his most recent posts are better. I can still see what he's thinking but I don't think he's really engaging with anyone still. Acrayon is the one I want to least likely vote but I would push my support towards Dino

Frankly I think that honestly I might scumread acryon most of them all and given that, this is an especially problematic stance coming from you when crossreferenced with the pressure on acryon--I switched my vote there, Iconeum was pushing for a lynch there, etc.

This is also valid.

Wakes up
Sees a few pages
Sees a Gladiate
Is now leaving.

Comes home.
Sees more than a few pages, reads them.
Sees a gladiate, comments on it and stays.

I wonder what's different about these?

[Carrot and Stick]

Oh! Also, forgot this.

STANCES, PRE-GLADIATE:

Another thing about beefster is the fact that he is suspicious of me and iconeum because we are going after low hanging fruit yet he himself is going after your slot whole your slot is under dire while both low hanging fruits were not

If Buju is town I would look at Dino, Acrayon and beefster.

Acrayon is the one I want to least likely vote but

I would push my support towards Dino

STANCES, POST-GLADIATE:

If i did decide to choose between Ico and Dino I would be leaning Ico because of his early confidence that he wasn't going to get lynched over Dino. Until he had gotten gladiated he was a non-presence in this game so I do not understand how he would have been a powerful player later on

[Carrot and Stick]

Actually I'd like acryon, Icon, and Mastina also to say who they'd lynch day 2. Doesn't look like all 4 are gonna live to see D2.

Surprising that you need to ask. acryon if he lives to see D2, Momra otherwise.

Your game would be improved by 20% if you just stopped scumreading Iconeum.

Only 20?

I can't believe we're actually taking no lynch seriously

I can't believe we're actually taking a guaranteed mislynch seriously.

[Carrot and Stick]

Also, @Mastina: Check this post for the most recent example of me pegging you (as scum) correctly, although I was wrong about both RC & Anen.

Then you didn't peg me given that you called me scum for something I was doing to a player you also thought was scum (Aneninen). You were right for the wrong reasons rather explicitly.

Another incident was in Kuroi's game when we were all scum (all but Chara). However, there wasn't much I could've done about it in thread and I never landed the NK (nor did Peregrine) so I was literally at a disadvantage there.

That was also a read based on the faulty premise that I was strategically staying behind(/lurking). Something I never have done and never will. I read games as I can read them; I read games chronologically.

You've also had a rather notable incident where your misread of me was a direct contributing factor to a town loss since you took me out of the game at a time where I was needed to do things like point out we needed to massclaim, that you had made a fucking math error in your calculations at energy cost which drastically impacted things yet which nobody else corrected you on, and that both lynch wagons were town and why, among other things.

I'll believe you can read me correctly when I actually see it in action.

[Carrot and Stick]

Scumreading IB again

No, dumb town is still town.

[Carrot and Stick]

Post #547: Is there not such a thing as idiotic scum?

There is it's just distinctly different from idiot town to the point where you can point them out rather definitively and differentiate between the two rather easily.

In #866, C&S says he's scumreading Ico.

...No? I'm stating that KTHX'S scumread on Iconeum was out of place.

[Carrot and Stick]

(That having been said: kthx's 942 is much, much, much better. It's not outside of his scumrange unfortunately but it's enough to give hesitance to the scumread there if nothing else.)

[Carrot and Stick]

To add to my 664: Keep in mind that acron likely didn't know voting to No Lynch would be possible. This was something asked and answered in thread. IF he didn't clarify this with the mod in a PM, then the move makes even MORE sense as scum motivated over town motivated. If he was town AND in fact DID clarify with the MOD via PM, then he would have added that information when explaining his role. If he was scum and clarified, he would certainly omit the information. So, either way, SCUM SCUM SCUMITY SCUM.

This is both a valid point and something off of my own role PM I can vouch for--role PMs this game are incredibly ambiguous if mine is anything to go by. I know what my role does, but the specifics of the role are not detailed in the PM.

[Carrot and Stick]

Entertain this though. Icon claims himself that he has an unimportant role. Can't we afford to lynch him for the confirmation that acryon is scum?

Sure in theory we can afford to lynch him.

We can also afford to NOT lynch him and do the scum's work for them.

Are you really that confident in your acryon read?

Yes.

This move never comes from town.
Never.

There are ten, twenty different ways you can approach it. Different reasons, difference explanations. They all hold true.

Every reason for "acryon could do something else as scum" has multiple flaws in it, among them of course being that the possibility of doing something different doesn't nullify what he actually did and that there are multiple driving factors for why he as scum could would and did choose this course of action.

There's no real reason for "acryon could be town doing this thing".

There's not really much in the way of Iconeum reasons for being scum and yet a BUNDLELOAD of reasons for Iconeum to be town in numerous different ways.

[Carrot and Stick]

If A50 is down to vote NL we do have the votes.

Still.
This is not something scum could have predicted prior to using the gladiate.

They had no way of knowing we'd be raising so many strong points in favor of the no-lynch.

So while it might be possible in THIS GAME.

In GENERAL. The principle behind what I said remains true. Given the battle against mechanics, reads, and theory (as all three exist in force plenty to avert the no-lynch), a no-lynch is next-to-impossible to achieve which is why it'll be a miracle if we manage the feat this game.

Also as mentioned it's quite possible scum didn't know the no-lynch was an option and even might have thought it was explicitly not an option.
Say acryon DID ask the mod about the role.
Say the mod told acryon something like "if nobody voted, a coin would be flipped between the gladiated players" or the like. (You know, basically, acryon having asked a question, but having asked the wrong question which indicated something other than the actuality.)

That would leave a scum-acryon under the false impression that no-lynch wouldn't be possible.

But even if acryon did know it was possible, I still maintain my stance that it makes no difference. A no-lynch is STILL better than a scum lynch on D1, yes? Do you disagree? So using it to save his life is better than not using it no matter what if he's scum.

[Carrot and Stick]

As promised,

Spoiler: mastina posts to quote

Phoneposting, will quote from hydra when able to.

From what I can gather, Paradox PROBABLY hid behind one of {acryon, Mathdino, Iconeum}, loosely least to most likely. (Math and acryon could be switched.)

It's unfortunately most likely that he his behind the night kill, and while his hider role crumb is clear, his hider TARGET isn't; I only have this as a guess off of some posts I can quote when home.

Reminder: scum have no role blocker, so that was a strongman kill. (Technically speaking, could be Math as scum simply lying, but that'd be a fine way to ensure that he got lynched.)

Will talk more when home from work, and cast the acryon vote I want to do right now but can't since am on wrong account.

Also,

MOD: do we get to know role details?
I.e., if the hider dies when hiding behind scum, behind the night kill, the JOAT powers, etc.?

Btw it's possible Assembler siteflaked; if so, would just play on my main, but I am still giving him time to see stuff.

Also, figured I'd ask:
MOD: If hider A hid behind Bodyguard B, who protected scum nightkill C, would the hider die?
If so, assume same as above, only scum strongman kill C. Would hider A still die?

Brafin:

cAn someone remind me how we know ther is not roleblocker but there is a strongman?

Because I say so.

My role 100% GUARANTEES they have no roleblocker. Mathdino claims that he did in fact protect Iconeum. He wasn't role blocked as per my guarantee, leaving two options:
Mathdino is scum who lied, killed who he said that he'd protect, knowing full good and well how sketchy that'd appear …
…OR, far more likely, it was just a strong man, which makes sense with multiple protectives.

And yes.
I am both a protective,
Yet also know thanks to my role scum have no roleblocker.
When you see my role, it'll all make sense how I know that.

Also,
VOTE: acryon.

Btw--
Some unfinished business:

time out. who is this? how do you know me? I've been out the game for over a year...

You probably figured this out overnight (especially if you had scumbuddies to tell you ), but it's literally in the signature of this account. If that wasn't a tipoff, if the overusage of ':P' wasn't a tipoff, then the fact that I'm quoting my mastina posts should be one.

Wait, I read 942 in full and none of it seems particularly supertown. I'm pretty sure mastina is just irrationally calling it town because he agrees with her.

Um...did you read what I actually said? I said exactly this. It looks good to me, but it is not something which kthx can't produce as scum. (I mean, that's mostly because kthx is a really freakin' strong scum player, butstill.) It is not agreeing with me that makes it good; it is the nature of the points and how they are presented which makes it good--good, but not necessarily town. Enough to give hesitance to a scumread, not enough to remove suspicion altogether.

I [*vomits*] trust (AGHHH) Not_Mafia on this acryon read.

I don't. Not_Mafia I believe believes himself to have reason to call acryon town. That I do trust. I don't believe his reasons for thinking acryon to be town are valid.

What happened to your Mathdino wagon?

Mathdino did something I thought made him town, acryon did something which further made me think Mathdino was town, Mathdino claimed just about the one role I'd have believed from him in a believable way (for instance, he sincerely believed he did not have a counterclaim which scum would obviously not think), and the results of the night given Mathdino's declared actions are not indicative of what he'd do if he were scum.

He could have killed anyone--killing his claimed protection draws unnecessary attention to himself and further suspicion, making him look much, much worse. While it's theoretically possible a scum him made that move fully believing he could get away with it by saying he was framed or the like, there's little reason to believe that the town would believe him.

Why didn't you make note of reads similarities to me? As town, you would know my scumread on you would be wrong...and you would attempt a reach-out to me. You would try to get me to work with you.

And as scum I'm just gonna keep on letting you push me knowing that eventually you'll get me lynched.

Yes my problem is exactly that--that's what you're more or less doing. You're not giving additional information, deliberately holding back from giving further content. That is the hallmark of a scum player who wants to avoid giving too much information away when she knows she'll flip later.

You're not someone a person can work with while you are scum reading them. I am not going to dissuade your read on me knowing that time will do that on its own. There is nothing productive that will come out doing that.

The thing about that is, this is you talking about what mastina has a reputation for being--not what mastina actually is. You have the long-term knowledge and first-hand experience to know the real me, and to know this ISN'T true. You know it is in fact perfectly possible to work with me when I am scumreading you and to get common ground...yet you did nothing to try to reach it.

That's a problem.

Your actions don't speak of town who know I'll come around because you've made no effort there to reach out to me someone who you probably consider a friend (I know I certainly call you among mine at the very least).

Your actions speak of scum who knows that the more you give me, the more likely I am to be accurate.

Except that the ability of town to alternatively vote for a NL makes most of this invalid.

Except no not really.

One: you might not have known no lynch was possible. There were multiple ways this could have happened.

Two: Even assuming you did in fact know it was possible, you would not necessarily think that possible = assured. I laid out precisely why people would be willing to mislynch Iconeum/Mathdino post-gladiate when unwilling to do so pre-gladiate and unless you can counter THAT point my argument stands. We did eventually no-lynch, sure, yes...but we did so only after I fought for it and advocated for it and gave good reasons for it. For every post you can quote of a player supporting a no-lynch, I can quote at least an equal number of posts from players stating they'd be willing to if not outright PREFERRING we lynch. And no matter how much you try to ignore those posts, the fact that they exist backs my argument up.

Three: Even if you DID manage to counter that argument, it still doesn't change the fundamental fact:
No scum lynch on D1 > scum lynch D1 for a scum player.

That fact doesn't change.

Surely C&S is better than to support this wild speculation. Especially considering the fact that I have never played as a gladiator before, you don't think I would make clear how it works?

Not speculation. Fact. The mod hasn't flipped the details of the role PMs. I know from my own role PM that details aren't given in the role PM proper. (Which, in hindsight, means I probably need to claim some time, maybe today, but certainly by tomorrow.)

This is something which others can and to some extent already have vouched for. Role PMs are ambiguous. You asking questions about your role doesn't guarantee you ask the RIGHT questions about your role. That is also fact. The simple fact is that there is no guarantee you knew the details of your role PM. The speculation is assuming you would. Not the other way around.

If you recognize that this line of thinking is flawed, why are you entertaining it?

The line of thinking isn't flawed. In THIS game, we managed to get the support for a no-lynch. Scum, however, are not psychic. They cannot predict this in advance. In fact, they have every reason to believe otherwise. If they didn't ask the right questions, they wouldn't know it was possible. If they DID ask the right questions, they'd know it was possible but only IF it reached absolute majority and if the town didn't get majority behind backing no lynch then one of the gladiated players would be lynched by default. (So if they did know about the no-lynch option, they'd know how unlikely via mechanics it was to obtain.)

And furthermore--they knew there was suspicion on Mathdino. They had no way of knowing I'd reverse my scumread on him. They knew there was potential suspicion on Iconeum if opinions like InfernoBrafin and BuJaber are anything to go by. It is not hard to assume that when a gladiate is forced, players with stated suspicions on those slots would suddenly vote them.

When you add in how many players detest the theory of no-lynching on D1, where they'd rather mislynch town "for information", because "the slot COULD be scum"...and how this is not at all an uncommon site trend...in fact it is pretty much taught to newbies by default...and exists nigh-universally that we 'MUST' lynch D1...then it's not hard to guess that even those who had stated an unwillingness to vote for either would when push came to shove be willing to vote for one or both to ensure that wouldn't happen.

Between those three factors, scum would have good reason to believe a no lynch wouldn't materialize even if they knew a no lynch was an option in theory. And I firmly believe that I can say without any arrogance that had I not been in the game, we never would have no-lynched. Because it was only after I advocated for it and made my points that no lynch began to gain traction. Yet the scum had no way of predicting this. They had no way of knowing I'd strongly, adamantly, push the idea of that no-lynch. They were, once more, under the belief that I'd never relent on my Mathdino read. (Because that is my reputation rather than my reality.)

In short, you as scum did what you did because you thought you could pull it off--that you didn't isn't relevant to the situation because what's important is what you THOUGHT. Not what happened.

This is a key factor people forget when doing scumhunting.

What happens in the game cannot retroactively be used as evidence to justify a mindset of what happened prior to that event happening.

In this case, the fact that we no-lynched cannot retroactively be used as evidence to justify a mindset that scum believed it would result in a no-lynch. Evidence existing prior to the no-lynch suggested it was in fact possible, even probable, we would have a guaranteed mislynch.

[Carrot and Stick]

Brafin:

cAn someone remind me how we know ther is not roleblocker but there is a strongman?

Ehhh screw it, I think this info needs to be stated since my role is likely to be posted in the same format as Iconeum.

Iconeum is a backup of my role. (Something I guessed at D1 which is one of the reasons I was defending him so adamantly--I don't know HOW, but somehow, I just

knew

that he was a backup JOAT specifically.)

My JOAT has an investigative action I am not disclosing at this time, but this is why I doubt Not_Mafia has anything indicating acryon to be town.
My JOAT has a roleblocker--this is why I know scum don't have one, because RB vs. RB is an ugly interaction moderators want to avoid. (Theoretically speaking, scum could have a jailkeeper I guess since RB vs. RB variant isn't as ugly, but as a general rule of thumb, mods avoid doubling down on roleblockers.)
My JOAT has a protective action I am not disclosing at this time. This is why I counterclaimed Mathdino, but indicated our roles could coexist as town a belief I maintain to be true.

The nature of my role is such that it is a role which would fit as a scum role, thus my comment about it.
The nature of my role is such that because my protective in spite of being stronger than a bodyguard is only one-shot is why I believe Mathdino's bodyguard claim and also believe that the kill was strongmanned.

I'd prefer not to flavor-claim since if I did that might give away the exact investigative/protective powers I have (I don't know how closely associated flavor is to ability), and I'd very much prefer not to claim what specifically my investigative/protective powers are and I CERTAINLY would prefer not to claim what action if any I took last night at this time until I deem such information pertinent, but these are all important facts to know which I feel would be lost if I died before revealing them, so here they are.

[Carrot and Stick]

I'm trying to deduce WHY that was the NK. Was it because Iconeum was on the right track? Was it because he crumbed something? Or was it to have 2 Townies down with one shot?

Iconeum was the nightkill for a combination of reasons.

1. To frame Mathdino
   .
   Mathdino was publicly on record as protecting Iconeum--Iconeum's death overnight would thus place Mathdino in an incredibly awkward, defensive position come D2 where the default assumption would be to be suspicious of "I protected him, I swear!" even though that's the truth.
   
2. To kill the hider
   .
   While this isn't as certain since it isn't as certain Paradox was breadcrumbing specifically an Iconeum hide, Paradox was unambiguously stating he was a hider and Iconeum was at the very least if not an assured hide a fairly high probability hide.
   
3. Because Iconeum could not be lynched
   .
   Scum tried that on D1 with the gladiate, but with it having failed then, that was proof they were never getting him lynched.
   
4. Because Iconeum was a competent player
   .
   His reads might not have been the most perfect, and he might not have been the most charismatic, and he might not have been the most obvtown, but he was immune to the lynch (see above), he was on the right track, and he was raising good point after good point so even if he wasn't right on everything he was dangerous enough to take out.

This is the same reason Iconeum was the gladiate; an attempt which failed to get rid of him.

[Carrot and Stick]

I mean was anyone assuming a role other than what she's clearly softing

I also warned you that you were thinking the wrong role since everyone was thinking I was a jailkeeper. When I said you wouldn't know my role until I claimed, I meant it.

Also still think that Momrangal and Almost50 should be lynched at some point.

Once more, I acknowledge that while it's

possible

Mathdino is scum, it's unlikely enough that I'm not considering it for a long, long time. My readslist as a result remains mostly unchanged:

BuJaber
The Worst
InfernoBrafin
alban/marshy/Not_Mafia

Mathdino


Beefster
Kthxbye

Lil Uzi Vert/Almost50




Momrangal




acryon

This is a fair approximation. I would prefer to have Beefster/Kthx locked down better; my reads there keep fluctuating. Almost50 continues to not send off any townvibes and quite a few scumvibes since coming in. Momrangal and acryon I've more or less explained already.

[Carrot and Stick]

Your actions don't speak of town who know I'll come around because you've made no effort there to reach out to me someone who you probably consider a friend (I know I certainly call you among mine at the very least).

Didn't you get something last night?

Nope! Just the Go Post message.

[Carrot and Stick]

Last night you should have gotten something, and you're ignoring it. Something that substantial proof that I'm not scum

Sorry, I got nothing and frankly there is no role you could claim to send something that I would believe--especially given that I did not roleblock you.

I know scum don't have a roleblocker because I am one.
If scum had a roleblocker and I was wrong on my belief they don't have one, their usage of it would be most likely to block either me or Mathdino.
If scum had a roleblocker, they would absolutely not use it on you given the scumreads on you.

And since I doubt town has a second roleblocker role, that means you're full of shit.

[Carrot and Stick]

(I mean. This is MY chance to be counterclaimed. If town does have a second blocking role that blocked Momrangal, then this is something which should in fact be outed. Otherwise, I don't see any world where Momrangal is town. Especially since what she is softclaiming is apparently a favorite fakeclaim from her era of players for some ungodly reason.)

[Carrot and Stick]

Mastina, I have but ONE question for you: Why the hell are you still alive if I'm scum here?

Not me?
Like.
Who the hell actually kills me N1 anymore?

Players just have a whole bunch of reasons not to. I am obvtown...but JUST scummy enough where hope of mislynching me remains.
I am infuriating to play with--people want to policy vote/lynch me near every game, which adds to the above.
I am infuriating to play with--this means players don't work well with me no matter how accurate my reads may be.
I am incredibly stubborn--this makes it easy to paint my viewpoint as being "confirmation bias", an easy way to discredit me.
I am incredibly stubborn--when I am in fact wrong, this is good justification in of itself for keeping me around longer.
I am not a scumhunting goddess--I am in fact often wrong.
I am very frequently prone to doubt--I do in fact reverse reads I shouldn't have reversed at times I shouldn't have.

Killing me gives credence to my reads. Killing me validates my points. Killing me is a good way to make people look at my reads and go, "maybe mastina was right". While this is convenient if I was in fact wrong, it is rather the inconvenience if I was right.

I am also incredibly easy to predict, by and large.
My role was also "known" last night. If scum "knew" my role (even assuming wrongly it was jailkeeper), they would be able to work around it, and use their own power (i.e., strongman) in a way which they knew wouldn't raise suspicion, more or less.

WHO do you think would be my 1st kill target? Who do you think would be 2nd?

Your first kill target would be the player you thought was most threatening in this specific game and whose death would most greatly be advantageous to your faction giving the most pros with the least number of cons.

Your second kill target would either match that modus operandi or switch to being a similar method of a policy-kill on a player who in most games fits that criteria even if not fitting them in the current game.

You don't kill me just because I'm me.
You don't kill Mathdino just because he's Mathdino.
You kill the player who gives the most benefit and the least cost. That was Iconeum. The benefits I outlined. The cost is nigh-nil. It was the most optimum nightkill, and one of the reasons it was so optimal is because of just how little it could even be traced to your modus operandi. EVERYONE had reason to kill Iconeum; as a result, NOBODY stands out above all others as via NKA looking suspicious.

The same cannot be said of a mastina nightkill. Many players would in fact be nigh-cleared from a mastina nightkill N1 because they would never nightkill me N1 given circumstances. InfernoBrafin, the worst, Mathdino, and BuJaber to name a few. Had I died, it would be strong evidence all of them were town--not to mention, Iconeum too. Because if I died, Iconeum would live. For that matter, so too would TheGoldenParadox have lived, and yet again he is among the list who wouldn't nightkill me N1.

EVERYONE had reason to kill Iconeum.

NOBODY

except

you/acryon/Momrangal/kthx/maybe Beefster had reason to kill me.

So had I died, red flags raised.

[Carrot and Stick]

You were the only person who was scum reading me, which is why I sent it to you explicitly.

And I received nothing.
I still have received nothing.

I am a messenger and I can send messages to up to three people. Last night I sent a message to Mastina stating that I was town.

This is a scum usage of the role as well.

I mean.

I don't think it's a fakeclaim anymore with this clarification of what was sent.

I do however think it's a scumclaim of usage.
Not because it failed, that's a mystery but presumably something that someone out there likely town knows the circumstances behind.
The contents of the usage are what make it scum.

Sending to one player specifically who scumreads you, rather than trying to send to three people and trying to coordinate a system. A messenger role which can multi-message is useful for town to chain together a system of communication, using any non-banned method of encryption more or less. (For instance, a classical one is assigning each player in the playerlist a specific designation, e.g. fruit, a country, etc.; in posts, the players would then be able to reference things subtly.) Coordinating and communicating and even establishing potential ways of roleclaiming and breadcrumbing that the messaged (hopefully all town) players would understand yet those outside would not--an in-thread masonry.

That's the usage of a town multi-messenger.

Sending to a single player scumreading you?

Not so much, no.

[Carrot and Stick]

I can send messages up to three people per night

Also, Almost50?

If Momrangal is scum with you, then her sending messages to me specifically would be why I'm alive, because attempting to manipulate me privately through private channels of communication?

You know, the Mason Gambit?

...Yeah, that?

Something the messenger role can easily be made to function as a variant of?

...Ask yourself this--how easy do you think that would be to pull off as scum?

(The answer is incredibly if you were wondering.)

So that in of itself would explain why I'm alive.

Not why the message failed, mind you.
But why I lived, yes.

[Carrot and Stick]

I am a messenger and I can send messages to up to three people. Last night I sent a message to Mastina stating that I was town.

This is a scum usage of the role as well. I do however think it's a scumclaim of usage. The contents of the usage are what make it scum.

Sending to one player specifically who scumreads you, rather than trying to send to three people and trying to coordinate a system.

In that post, I explained how town would use it.

But how scum would use it?

It's a neat little way to potentially try to fake being a friendly neighbor.

Her claiming the role today and the contents she tried to send doesn't make it less suspicious how she used it.

A message stating only that she is town is something which in of itself is incredibly suspicious--and that would also explain the usage on a single target rather than three. If she sent three messages stating she was town, it would be obvious that she wasn't a friendly neighbor who was capable of telling three different people in a night she was town because that'd be basically broken as a town role; nobody would believe it.

Basically, this is yet another instance of scum-oriented play.
Momrangal's usage of the role could in theory come from town--but doing what she did would be

incredibly sub-optimal

usage of the role. It is a stretch of the imagination to believe she could use the role that terribly since it has very little in the way of justification. Why try to look town as town and do nothing more?

Momrangal's usage of the role has a clear motivation coming from scum--doing what she did makes perfect sense with her being scum, trying to falsely clear herself.

The same reasons why acryon's usage of his role were scum are the reasons why Momrangal's usage of her role was scum.

[Carrot and Stick]

Nice! So I wouldn't kill you on N1, but I wasn't to be cleared had you been shot N1. In short, I'm just scum regardless of what I say or do and regardless of how the game goes. (And you ask why I wasn't willing to debate on your mini-booklet posts?)

Yeah this sort of discrediting NEVER comes from a town-Almost50.
Ever.

To put it shortly in an answer though: not what I said, no. You would not kill me N1 because you know that killing me N1 points to you. There is no contradiction in there, there is no "you're scum no matter what". That is a clear, self-contained thought process. I am alive because if I died it would condemn you. You as scum have reason to not let that happen. You asked me why I was alive. I'm alive because nobody would kill me. The REASONS why nobody would kill me differ. For players like the worst, et. al., it's because killing me would be killing an asset. For you, it's because killing me would be pointing TO you. This does not make you "scum no matter what". This is just a fact.

I am alive because nobody had reason to kill me. I am alive because killing me would be detrimental to the scum. I am alive because getting rid of me wouldn't help half the players, and because it wouldn't help those half of the players, my death would by proxy be condemning for the half it WOULD help.

In other words. NKA would point squarely to you if I died; NKA doesn't point to anyone specifically with Iconeum dead.

I'm Scum with mom, Math, acryon ... anyone else?

Nice of you to try to paraphrase my words into something I never said!
I'm rather unambiguous about who I am scumreading. You, Momrangal, and acryon.

kthx remains possible scum and if I am wrong on a read he'd be who I'd first think is scum but if I had to state a read on him it'd be a mixture of null and ambivalent-null rather than really scum.
Beefster remains potential scum but my read there is mostly ambivalent null with the slightest of leans towards the town side of the spectrum in that if I am wrong on a read he becomes far more likely as scum and if I'm wrong on two then he's basically definitively scum but otherwise I don't think he's very likely to be scum.

Mathdino could in theory be scum but the possibility of that is so remote that it is almost, almost, ALMOST impossible. I use the term impossible very sparingly, thus, he's as close to it as he'll get.

There is nobody else.

Just you three.

[Carrot and Stick]

the way she's continually trying to hedgehorn my claim and usage as it as scum without thinking logically why, if I was trying to look town with my claim, and 'desire to look like a friendly neighbor" (not that she's wrong about) as being scum oriented while dismissing the fact that I am grossly overstepping that town read by explicitly claiming that I can send it too three.

Momrangal's usage of the role could in theory come from town--but doing what she did would be

incredibly sub-optimal

usage of the role. It is a stretch of the imagination to believe she could use the role that terribly since it has very little in the way of justification. Why try to look town as town and do nothing more?

Momrangal's usage of the role has a clear motivation coming from scum--doing what she did makes perfect sense with her being scum, trying to falsely clear herself.

The same reasons why acryon's usage of his role were scum are the reasons why Momrangal's usage of her role was scum.

Also if I simply wanted to look like a friendly neighbor then I would have just claimed so

Last night you should have gotten something, and you're ignoring it. Something that substantial proof that I'm not scum

There is no role you could claim to send something that I would believe--especially given that I did not roleblock you.

(I don't see any world where Momrangal is town. Especially since what she is softclaiming is apparently a favorite fakeclaim from her era of players for some ungodly reason.)

^Basically I made it rather clear and unambiguous that I would not believe a friendly neighbor claim from you and that it was a favored scum fakeclaim from your era of player. That killed any option of claiming to be one.

[Carrot and Stick]

As far as yesterday goes, she explicitly keeps stating that I'm ignoring her, and that I'm scum for that but she also overlooks the facts that, when she asked to do things for "town cred" I continually kept on doing it.

Never addressing me when doing those things--still counts as ignoring me. You did those things with a detachment from me. You did those things without interacting with me. You didn't quote me when, say, voting acryon. You didn't give me a callout of something like, "hey mastina, I am doing the thing!". Nothing. Actions might speak louder than words, but they still need words connecting them.

So yes.

You ignored me. Continuously. You acted as if all those things I asked you to do were being done not because I asked you to do them but because they were being done on your own initiative. The framing behind it is what makes the difference. You weren't trying to work with me. You were trying to placate me. You weren't trying to collaborate with me. You were trying to throw me off. Which you yourself admit:

Not only that, I was overly cheeky on bussing my supposedly scum buddies she ignored it

The fact you're self-aware about it does not change the inherent scumminess of the action. Trying to throw me off is still trying to throw me off is still trying to not have me latch onto the things I am right about.

[Carrot and Stick]

Also it isn't unheard of Town being a backup of a scum role.

Sure it isn't!

It is incredibly, incredibly, incredibly uncommon though.

In Normals, it's all-but-explicitly banned. (Technically speaking you might be allowed a nurse/deputy of one alignment to the main role of the other, but this I near-guarantee you would never pass review no matter what other roles you have in the game; ironically enough, my theoretical hydra partner Assemblerotws actually attempted much this idea but I was one of the reviewers who shot it down, so. It's one of those things which is, "in theory not actually banned but in practice we're never letting this through", akin to trying an 8-PR setup with two VTs.)

In theme games?

How far back do you have to go to find one?

It's uncommon for a very fucking good reason. Because it is shitty game design. This was discussed in great length during Biochemistry Mafia. Town backups to a scum role are something which disproportionately punishes the scum and pushes the game to being far more swingy in favor of the town; scum backups to a town role are something which disproportionately punishes the town and pushes the game to being far more swingy in favor of the scum.

In other words.

This point by Momrangal is of the type which is "technically true and valid, but incredibly reachy". It's a stretch even she can't say with a straight face: how sure does "it isn't unheard of" sound to you? Of course it's not unheard of, but it's far from common. It's far from typical. If it were typical, she would say so. If it were something that happened often, she'd say it happened often. But no. She can't. Because it doesn't. So she instead has to say "it COULD be the case".

Yes, it could be the case.

Anything non-bastard could be the case.

Mathdino could be a scum bodyguard, that could in fact be the case.
Scum bodyguards are not in fact unheard of.

That doesn't mean Mathdino IS a scum bodyguard, now, does it?

Of course not.

[Carrot and Stick]

The point against you though is you messaged only one person, hinting you might've planned to claim FN and changed your mind, perhaps.

That is in fact what I am saying!

[Carrot and Stick]

All of these things I would have done if I were scum because I hate having people on my back.

But the thing is you're trying to have the best of both worlds.
You're trying to say you were doing these things, while also admitting that you as scum wouldn't want to give me extra info. The way you handled this, pragmatically, was exactly the part you cut out:
You tried to placate me.

Placating me would get me off your back while avoiding giving out extra information.

And that's what you did, and why you are scum.

[Carrot and Stick]

You pushed Dino until he claimed

Yeah small problem with that narrative.

It's a thing called "timing".

You probably caught Icon crumbing (you did admit you knew he was a backup JOAT) so you shot him.

Also small problem with that.

It's a thing called he explicitly claimed Backup. He didn't claim what he was a backup specifically to. But I did in fact guess it was a backup to my role.

Further problem to that.

Shooting a backup is not shooting a PR because for the backup to become the PR the main role has to die first--in other words, in a hypothetical scumastina world, the only way Iconeum becomes a PR/threat is if I die first...which is.
Yaknow.
scumastina dieing first.

That's beyond what I can call a "small problem" which you of course know because you know how highly I think of my scumgame. By your own confession, you think I know my own scumgame so well that I think it basically flawless. By your own confession, therefore. You think I know that I'm not going to die early. And therefore. By your own confession. You are admitting that Iconeum could not use his role because his role is a backup to mine. And therefore...not a threat.

I mean there's reasons I'd kill Iconeum, sure. Yeah. I've stated them already. The four basic reasons I outlined apply to me just as much as they do anyone else. Iconeum's death frames Mathdino. Iconeum was never getting lynched. Iconeum was a competent player. Iconeum's death doesn't point to any specific players as scum since literally everyone has reason to nightkill him equally. Those apply just as much to me as they do anyone else so scumastina would in fact kill Iconeum because of them.

Not for the reasons you're attempting to sell with your narrative though.

[Carrot and Stick]

I can't aim to claim a role when I forgot the role that I was thinking of had an actual nams

Yes you can. Not knowing/remembering the role name does not mean you cannot describe the role's function.

The plan was to send it to mastina tonight, and send one to one other person tomorrow stating, that I'm town and if I was still alive then Mastina was scum. Sending it to only one person last night, and one more each consecutive night I could eventually build a list of confirmed town because if scum got it, then I'm gonna be clearly dead due to the perceived IC messenger role that they wouldn't want to keep alive

Even assuming that "still alive" means "dead" (because you still being alive would be proof I'm town not scum, whereas your death would mean I'd be scum, working from this narrative), even setting aside the tense trouble in the post (which makes it look like you copy-pasted from the scum PT), this is still a plan which doesn't take into account that sending to a single target who from her perspective should have had a high chance of being nightkilled if she were town (yes I outlined reasons why I wouldn't die no matter what, but from HER perspective I was a claimed protective and a POWERFUL one at that which Mathdino was explicitly NOT protecting and thus was wide open to attack) is a good way to break the chain/have the plan fail, and that sending to only one individual is still a waste of the power considering that if she gained reason to believe I was town (e.g. her living to see D3) she should be communicating to me continuously (it makes no difference for her to send a message to a scumastina if scumastina nightkills her, but it DOES make a difference for her to send a message to a town mastina).

I'm not sure how to better word that.

But basically.
Setting aside the wording of this which sounds like a scumclaim.
There's still the fact that the outlined plan is inherently flawed and still contains an incredible stretch in perspective to be required to work.
For it to work, you have to believe Momrangal:
-Knew about the friendly neighbor role and tried to mimic its effects in spite of not knowing the role's name
-Mimicked a known scum strategy without having knowledge of it
-Did so without thinking about the potential to create a townbloc immediately and/or coordinate roles/claims/etc in-thread
-Crafted this plan with an obvious flaw of her targeting a player who subjectively from her perspective should have been an incredibly-probable nightkill
-And which had some obvious flaws in design even if it worked in the way she intended it to.

In contrast?
What's required for her to be scum with this plan?
The thought of mastina scumreading her, knowing who scum are nightkilling avoiding sending it to the nightkill, and then crafting a message to fake being conftown to make a read change happen.

Which of these is simpler?

[Carrot and Stick]

Yeah and I come into today stating that you're lying because I k me I couldn't have been roleblockrd.

No, you came in to today voting acryon. Which would be placation. Furthermore!

I wasn't talking about today.

I was talking about yesterday--that being the day in question, that's the day which is relevant.

And my statement is valid for D1, the day I am stating it was valid for.

[Carrot and Stick]

I could have still omitted that three per night clause

And what, pray tell, would you do when that'd show up to a town rolecop?

Which I know scum don't have because that's my investigative.

[Carrot and Stick]

If we are certain scum has no roleblocker, we can also be certain that Momrangal did not make either nightkill. I know because of my role and action.

Well yes as long as acryon is alive scum has an easy killer they can make do the nightkill. It wouldn't surprise me if acryon's role in addition to the gladiate had a strongman. Wouldn't be the first time scum were given a gladiate-strongman. (Almost50 would know!)

Plus there's also the fact that Almost50's role is unknown and given that he's probably the third scum and not someone I was willing to risk roleblocking (albeit someone I did almost flip a coin in considering rolecopping), he could be the strongman.

Or the strongman could be a factional ability. (If so, it'd probably be a one-shot thing.)

There is ever so slightest the chance Momrangal's bullshitting literally everything, is a strongman which punctures both blocks and protects, and did the kill, but that's something in the realm of "so unlikely I'd deem it impossible", more or less.

[Carrot and Stick]

And yes.
I am both a protective,
Yet also know thanks to my role scum have no roleblocker.
When you see my role, it'll all make sense how I know that.

If this is a JK claim, I cc.

It is not!

Keep reading, I'm mostly claimed.
I am the JOAT that Iconeum was backing up.
My powers are a Rolecop, Roleblock, and an unspecified protection role.
My night action last night is explicitly not a roleblock (I was holding onto that because if acryon was vigged last night and we lynched scum today, then I could have blocked the final scum, at least that was the idea), but I would prefer not to state what action if any I used last night.

[Carrot and Stick]

I should be more specific.
My role is not JOAT, but spelled out instead--Jack of all Trades.
I'm the Apple Kid. Flavor is that I'm a genius who has created many inventions for Ness and co., the ability's name is Garbage Pail Gizmos, which creates makeshift devices out of junk hereabout, but that they are low-quality and break after one use.

My role PM then says,
"You have: Rolecop, [Protective], Roleblocker".
It does not give descriptions of what any of those do. It's literally just their names, nothing more.

This is why I said my role PM is ambiguous. I still know exactly what it does, that I'm a JOAT who has three powers. But it doesn't go into the specifics of the rolecop, the protective, or the roleblocker.

[Carrot and Stick]

lol, bye mastin

Yeah except when Beefster reads further he'll see I explicitly didn't claim Jailkeeper.

I claimed JOAT.

He is not a counterclaim to me. Because my protective power is not a jailkeeper.

[Carrot and Stick]

No you just shoved it in everyone's face without saying it, nice try ggnore

I stated explicitly.
Multiple times on D1.

Throughout the day.

"You won't know my role until I claim."

Jailkeeper was what everyone was assuming I was--if that was my claim, then everyone would have known it, yes?

I stated that my mention of gunsmith had a meaning. (By NRG standards, a JOAT with a cop power, which a rolecop qualifies as, would show as having a gun; in contrast, a JOAT with a doctor power, in spite of a normal doctor having no gun, does not make someone appear as having none. I was also referencing roles, in that I was hinting that I could look at Mathdino's ROLE. Because. Yaknow. That's what a rolecop does.)

I stated many times that I had a role which was explicitly something more useful for scum--a rolecop and a roleblock qualify; a jailkeeper does not.
I stated my role was situationally useful for town but otherwise more useful for scum--again, rolecop and roleblock qualify; jailkeeper does not because a jailkeeper is the inverse; a role which is more useful for town and only situationally useful for scum. (Nine times out of ten, if given the choice between a jailkeeper and a roleblocker, scum are going to go for the roleblocker.)

I stated I was a protective, but that my role was something I firmly believed would exist along-side Mathdino's role. Him being a bodyguard and me being a 1x-[protective] is that exactly. Him being a bodyguard and me a jailkeeper, a little less so because jailkeeper is such a strong role for town it leaves the bodyguard in the dust even though they do not technically contradict.

I stated I knew scum did not have a roleblocker. Why does a jailkeeper mean scum have no roleblocker? It doesn't, because JK vs. RB is not an ugly interaction; the RB nine times out of ten wins. It has an established, sitewide, nigh-universal precedence. Thus, doesn't conflict. There is nothing stating that one cannot be in the game with the other.

This is because I did not have a jailkeeper.
It is because I have a fucking roleblock. And RB vs. RB interactions, unlike JK vs. RB interactions,

are

ugly. So I knew they weren't in the game.

There was no jailkeeper breadcrumbs.
There was anti-jailkeeper breadcrumbs where I RATHER EXPLICITLY STATED that you wouldn't know my role until I had claimed it.
Because jailkeeper was not what I was breadcrumbing.
JOAT was.

[Carrot and Stick]

We need what? 6? We already have 3, with A50 its 4. Mastin will be at L-2. Still think she (they?) won't happen today?

Oh it might because this is a town moronic enough to mislynch combined with the scumfucks who are being blatantly opportunistic about hopping onto this wagon when it should be rather unambiguous exactly why the wagon is shit.

But my statement earlier today was that I wouldn't be lynched if I were scum.

I'm town, so. Is possible given acryon the scumfuck he is will all too happily vote me and then it only takes InfernoBrafin derphammering me to end the day.

Would contradict my statement that I wouldn't be lynched this game which I said D1.

But.

Yaknow.

I stated that under the belief people would actually be rational, which I suppose was in fact an unrealistic expectation from this playerlist.

Literally the only player here I trust to not mislynch me is Mathdino because in spite of how much he finds me infuriating he has half a brain to know I'm not scum with this, which is pathetic since he's the next nightkill be it by his role or scum just outright directly killing him and I could very well be lynched before he even next checks in.

[Carrot and Stick]

Also Beefster's rather explicitly town if you were wondering--no thoughts about "scum Beefster jailkeeping Mathdino" because Beefster claimed the Momrangal jailkeep. (Which, by the way...explains the lack of result...which WAS OVER HALF THE CASE AGAINST ME. Literally over half the case against me is based off of an action NOW EXPLICITLY KNOWN TO BE ACCOUNTED FOR WITH NO CONTRADICTION PRESENT. I got nothing from Momrangal not because I am lying, as the case against me says, but because Beefster jailkept Momrangal.)

Mathdino remains town, too.

Honestly what I'd want is for Beefster to just outright jailkeep Mathdino at this point. Mathdino's the most competent town player left alive and is just town, fuck letting him die as a bodyguard.

[Carrot and Stick]

There she goes pressuring for the knowledge of my role, just as I had predicted.

Yeah no.
Stating your role is not known is not pressuring for knowledge of a role.
It is stating a fact.
Your role is unknown.
Do you dispute this claim?

I said exactly that and nothing more.
Do you want to point out the 'more' you allegedly think I put?

Because I said exactly what I meant. Nothing more, nothing less.

Your role is unknown.

Also, that first paragraph is all kinds of BS. mom wanted to lynch acryon today, and I was pushing him hard yesterday, so he can't be scum with me and mom.

There's a little thing called "bussing".

Or really, distancing, even, considering that scum knowing acryon has a gladiate know that he's never in danger of being lynched.

You've also gone on to reverse that read unprompted now that you had the chance--even prior to my entrance/explosion in posts today, you were with no explanation whatsoever stating that he was not someone you wanted to lynch.

Sounds like a bus to me!

Still waiting for the damning evidence you are indeed FAKING.

It's called my iso.

People should try reading it some time.

I'm rather unambiguous in it at all times. Every step of the way, about every aspect of the game. My reads, reasons, and even my role.

[Carrot and Stick]

What the fuck I left for 4 hours how did mastina blow up the thread

>Momrangal claimed to send me a message.
>I did not receive a message.
>I stated she was scum, because there are no roleblockers in the game outside of me.
>She stated this indicated I was scum, because there are no roleblockers in the game outside of me. (Yes, I said it first.)
>She claimed messenger, and attempted to send a message to me saying she was town.
>I outlined why her usage of the role was a scumclaim.
>She called me scum for bullshit reasons, and tried to have her cake while eating it on her play yesterday.
>I called her out for it.
>Almost50 came in and more or less scumclaimed.
>Beefster claimed jailkeeper, having jailed Momrangal, thus explaining why I got no result.
>Beefster mistakenly believed I was claiming jailkeeper and thus voted me believing him to be counterclaiming me in his stupidity.
>This opportunistic wagon is now made up of Momrangal, Not_Mafia, Beefster, with Almost50 well on his way and acryon likely to join any moment.
>I all-but fullclaimed: my JOAT powers are a rolecop, a protective, and a roleblock. I'm the Apple Kid, a Jack of all Trades.
>In spite of the reasons for me to be scum ("mastina lied about not receiving the message!"; "mastina was claiming Jailkeeper!") having been explained and rebutted, the votes continue because this fucking town is going to lose.

That about sums it up.

[Carrot and Stick]

Claim your protective mastina

It's a doctor.

So once more to reiterate.

My fullclaim, nothing held back.

Is Apple Kid, a genius inventor whose inventions help Ness and co. My role is a Jack of All Trades (aligned with the town but that's a given). My ability, Garbage Pail Gizmos, allows me to create makeshift devices out of junk. They are low quality, and break after one use. They are, in order: Rolecop, Doctor, and Roleblocker. And I win when threats to the town are eliminated with at least one member of the town alive.

That's as close to an outright quote of it as I can get without getting modkilled.

[Carrot and Stick]

Yeah sure, I was Jailkept and you aren't lying about not receiving my message but that is not over half the case

Oh really?

Do tell then.

[Carrot and Stick]

Btw I did some flavor research and if you check.

Apple Kid is one of two inventors in the game--the USEFUL one.
Orange Kid (Iconeum's role) is the other of the two inventors--the USELESS one.

Orange Kid was a BACKUP JOAT.
I am Apple Kid, the JOAT in question. (Incidentally, I was right to believe flavor claiming would've outed my role.)

Flavor-wise, that is a literally picture-perfect fit.

Go look it up yourself if you don't believe me.

And I mean no offense to Gamma Emerald, but if you think scum's abilities with town fakeclaims are going to be perfect, I'm sorry to say, he's not that level of a competent mod.

[Carrot and Stick]

Oh by the way.
Captain Strong is a perfect fit for scum flavor.
It is also perfect flavor for a strongman.

During the battle, Strong's loss of temper increases his offense by 1. He can also use grapple, come out swinging, and execute submission holds, which can deal moderate to very high damage as well.

No offense meant to Gamma but it wouldn't surprise me if scum had to wing it to some extent RE: fakeclaims. To the point where some scum might just outright claim their real role.

[Carrot and Stick]

the way she's continually trying to hedgehorn my claim and usage as it as scum without thinking logically why, if I was trying to look town with my claim, and 'desire to look like a friendly neighbor" (not that she's wrong about) as being scum oriented while dismissing the fact that I am grossly overstepping that town read by explicitly claiming that I can send it too three.

Also if I simply wanted to look like a friendly neighbor then I would have just claimed so

the way she's continually trying to hedgehorn my claim and usage as it as scum without thinking logically why, if I was trying to look town with my claim, and 'desire to look like a friendly neighbor" (not that she's wrong about) as being scum oriented while dismissing the fact that I am grossly overstepping that town read by explicitly claiming that I can send it too three.

Momrangal's usage of the role could in theory come from town--but doing what she did would be

incredibly sub-optimal

usage of the role. It is a stretch of the imagination to believe she could use the role that terribly since it has very little in the way of justification. Why try to look town as town and do nothing more?

Momrangal's usage of the role has a clear motivation coming from scum--doing what she did makes perfect sense with her being scum, trying to falsely clear herself.

The same reasons why acryon's usage of his role were scum are the reasons why Momrangal's usage of her role was scum.

Also if I simply wanted to look like a friendly neighbor then I would have just claimed so

Last night you should have gotten something, and you're ignoring it. Something that substantial proof that I'm not scum

There is no role you could claim to send something that I would believe--especially given that I did not roleblock you.

(I don't see any world where Momrangal is town. Especially since what she is softclaiming is apparently a favorite fakeclaim from her era of players for some ungodly reason.)

^Basically I made it rather clear and unambiguous that I would not believe a friendly neighbor claim from you and that it was a favored scum fakeclaim from your era of player. That killed any option of claiming to be one.

As far as yesterday goes, she explicitly keeps stating that I'm ignoring her, and that I'm scum for that but she also overlooks the facts that, when she asked to do things for "town cred" I continually kept on doing it.

Not only that, I was overly cheeky on bussing my supposedly scum buddies she ignored it, as did every one else, but more importantly she should have been paranoid about that

As far as yesterday goes, she explicitly keeps stating that I'm ignoring her, and that I'm scum for that but she also overlooks the facts that, when she asked to do things for "town cred" I continually kept on doing it.

Never addressing me when doing those things--still counts as ignoring me. You did those things with a detachment from me. You did those things without interacting with me. You didn't quote me when, say, voting acryon. You didn't give me a callout of something like, "hey mastina, I am doing the thing!". Nothing. Actions might speak louder than words, but they still need words connecting them.

So yes.

You ignored me. Continuously. You acted as if all those things I asked you to do were being done not because I asked you to do them but because they were being done on your own initiative. The framing behind it is what makes the difference. You weren't trying to work with me. You were trying to placate me. You weren't trying to collaborate with me. You were trying to throw me off. Which you yourself admit:

Not only that, I was overly cheeky on bussing my supposedly scum buddies she ignored it

The fact you're self-aware about it does not change the inherent scumminess of the action. Trying to throw me off is still trying to throw me off is still trying to not have me latch onto the things I am right about.

Also it isn't unheard of Town being a backup of a scum role. I've played in a game where that was the case which was another role madness game, though it was large its still proof that it isn't a stretch

Also it isn't unheard of Town being a backup of a scum role.

Sure it isn't!

It is incredibly, incredibly, incredibly uncommon though.

In Normals, it's all-but-explicitly banned. (Technically speaking you might be allowed a nurse/deputy of one alignment to the main role of the other, but this I near-guarantee you would never pass review no matter what other roles you have in the game; ironically enough, my theoretical hydra partner Assemblerotws actually attempted much this idea but I was one of the reviewers who shot it down, so. It's one of those things which is, "in theory not actually banned but in practice we're never letting this through", akin to trying an 8-PR setup with two VTs.)

In theme games?

How far back do you have to go to find one?

It's uncommon for a very fucking good reason. Because it is shitty game design. This was discussed in great length during Biochemistry Mafia. Town backups to a scum role are something which disproportionately punishes the scum and pushes the game to being far more swingy in favor of the town; scum backups to a town role are something which disproportionately punishes the town and pushes the game to being far more swingy in favor of the scum.

In other words.

This point by Momrangal is of the type which is "technically true and valid, but incredibly reachy". It's a stretch even she can't say with a straight face: how sure does "it isn't unheard of" sound to you? Of course it's not unheard of, but it's far from common. It's far from typical. If it were typical, she would say so. If it were something that happened often, she'd say it happened often. But no. She can't. Because it doesn't. So she instead has to say "it COULD be the case".

Yes, it could be the case.

Anything non-bastard could be the case.

Mathdino could be a scum bodyguard, that could in fact be the case.
Scum bodyguards are not in fact unheard of.

That doesn't mean Mathdino IS a scum bodyguard, now, does it?

Of course not.

Not only are you trying to hedgehorn my words into something that is scum oriented, you're also doing it to A50 And you were doing it to Dino all of yesterday.

This one I can't use a quote from my iso for though because admittedly I skipped it the first time. But my iso is open to all to read. I welcome it. Because what I've done is show why I think the players I am scumreading are scum. That's what's there...but it's not for me to judge what that's seen as.

[Carrot and Stick]

And I mean no offense to Gamma Emerald, but if you think scum's abilities with town fakeclaims are going to be perfect, I'm sorry to say, he's not that level of a competent mod.

You can fakeclaim yourself

Considering I have no knowledge of the source material?

Not really, no!

I was brought into this game, wouldn't have come into it on my own.

And yes by the way, Mathdino. I do explicitly share your concern about Not_Mafia but I'm not bumping him out of the town list in spite of my frustrations with him--I still think overall he's more likely to be town than not, especially since the main reason I have for not wanting to townread him is that the game would be saner if he were scum.

I don't trust games to be sane, so.

[Carrot and Stick]

You can't ignore the fact that Mastina is not actually thinking about the probability of scum of her bottom three.

I do when I have reason to.

When Mathdino was in my bottom three, at the time he made sense with acryon--the moment he didn't make sense as scum with acryon, he left the scum zone.

I have no reason to think you aren't scum with Almost50.
I have no reason to think you aren't scum with acryon.
The actions you have demonstrated have not been such that a scumteam is unlikely--quite the opposite, every interaction I see supports it.

I follow the fucking evidence and a few distance votes and paltry interactions are not enough to dissuade me from calling a scumteam which is disproportionately likely to be right or at least mostly right. (I acknowledge once more that I am not a scumhunting goddess, I can and will be wrong, but I don't think I'm entirely off-base. I see three players as scum; I see these three players as being scum together sensibly; I know I might not be right, but I cannot play the game assuming I'm wrong because that just fundamentally doesn't work; as a result, I will continue to assume I am right until I have reason beyond reverse-BoPing myself to believe myself wrong.)

you can't ignore the fact that not one but three people have said that she's putting words in peoples mouth

Odd, this is a sin some players are guilty of in this game...
...But none of them are me!

Strangely enough, most of them are using it ON me in fact.
Stating I am saying things which I never fucking said.

I wonder who those players would be?

[Carrot and Stick]

Otherwise, her saying she had a gunsmith guilty on Dino makes no sense

My rolecop is a night action; I said this on D1; there was no N0 and I was a replacement into this game anyway. It was meant as a breadcrumb/softclaim, yes, but not in that way.

"Slot must be scum because town would never do what she just did"
Is essentially your argument against me.

Part, yes.
The other part is meta.
It's not that it's "a town player wouldn't do what Momrangal did".
It's that "MOMRANGAL wouldn't do what she did if she were town".

It just so happens those two have rather significant overlap.

Everything you've done has been scum.

The way you pushed BuJaber.
The fact that none of your points even remotely resonated with me and were even rats-ass backwards from what I was seeing.
The fact that you were essentially entirely ignoring me all of yesterday.

It's no singular thing.

It's everything.

just because you would play a certain role one way as town doesn't mean another person wouldn't.

I acknowledge how the usage of the role is possible town.
But my point isn't that it's impossible to come from town; my point isn't that it's guaranteed to come from scum.

My point is that when you look at the DRIVING ALIGNMENT MOTIVATION BEHIND THE CLAIMED ACTION.
When you look at the intention behind the action.
The motive for doing it as town is a stretch, requiring many contrived, convoluted coincidences to stack up on top of one another, to create a plan which isn't very sensible and is incredibly sub-optimal usage of the role.

The motive for doing it as scum is almost self-explanatory: simple, direct, easy to understand, and piece together.

It's occam's razor in motion.

The plan behind the role is simple as scum and requires little thinking to understand, as it is optimal usage of that role as scum.
The plan behind the role is contrived as town and requires a great number of stretches to make sense, as it is sub-optimal usage to an incredible degree.

Oh let's also not forget that I'm trying to Placate you by outright attacking you and doing the exact thing that I hate doing as scum

I have been rather unambiguous that the placation was not D2--it was D1. You continue to ignore that because it breaks your narrative. Furthermore, you started the day voting acryon; it was only when I went after you that you started to attack me. And then by the time facts began to turn against you, it was too late--you dug too deep a hole to just back out of.

So yes.

You're doing the exact thing you hate doing as scum.

You didn't know you were going to be doing it, but you got into it because you have no choice.

And don't say that can't happen.
I'm an elite scum player and it's happened to me.
You could be a Don Corelone and have it happen to you.
No scum player is immune to having it happen to them.

Because they don't realize it's happening until it's too late and has already happened.

You reacted in the way you thought was best.
Then reacted in the way you thought was best from the prior reaction.
And then the best from that prior reaction.
And so on and so forth down a chain which eventually led to this.

Just because you don't like doing something as scum doesn't mean it's something you can't do as scum.

[Carrot and Stick]

mastina wtf happened to "MY SCUMREADS ARE ALL COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT, IF IM WRONG ON ONE I SHIFT TO THE NEXT"

Still applies?

I am scumreading Momrangal individually and off of her Almost50/acryon interactions.
I am scumreading acryon individually and off of his Momrangal interactions.
I am scumreading Almost50 individually and off of his Momrangal/acryon interactions.

I was scumreading you individually and off of acryon/Momrangal interactions.
It just so happened that you knocked out both the acryon interactions and the individual scumread at the exact same time, but it very easily could have been at two different times.

If I thought the scumteam no longer made sense but still scumread you, you'd be in the scum list but at a reduced spot off of a reduced confidence in that I'd have a more "if this, then that".
If I thought the scumteam did make sense but no longer scumread you, you'd be stuck in ambivalence pretty much indefinitely--I'd think you'd look town, but I'd be concerned you'd be scum because you'd fit even if individually I didn't have a read there. (For the record, I consider this the far more shitty read of the two to have.)

By coincidence, when you cased acryon, you did so in a way which knocked out both...which I explicitly said.
I said at the time that "even if acryon were town, I'd think this were Mathblade as town". And in that same post, noted that "but this is CERTAINLY not scumbuddies".

That's what I meant. You managed to reverse BOTH at the same time, rather than just one.

These two factors exist entirely separate from one another.
Individual scumreads, and scumteam interactions/pair reads.
You can have players be town by one, town by the other, town by both, one town and the other scum, one scum and the other town, or be scum by both. They exist in whatever state they exist in.

You went from scum/scum to town/town.
Momrangal is scum/scum with Individual and interactions with Almost50/acryon.
acryon is scum/scum with Individual and Interactions with Momrangal.
Almost50 is scum/scum with Individual and Interactions with Momrangal.

They augment, rather than contradict, one another.

I really don't see what's so hard to get about that.
You'd think it'd be a fairly standard method?
It seems fairly self-explanatory to me.

My scumreads are both based on individual play AND interactions with one another.
My townreads are both based on individual play AND interactions with one another.
I don't get why people seem to think individual play and interactions inherently clash with one another--they CAN, and DO, and when they do I often make note of it having happened, but they don't have to and right now they're mostly not.

[Carrot and Stick]

Messenger is undoubtedly a town role

Okay, making a slight substitution from the original quote, but:

I need information about the gladiate ability, is it inherintly scum, town, or NAI?

Alignment: any

A Mailman (or Courier or Messenger) is a role that can send a message to another player at Night.

This role can be of any alignment.

Especially in a role madness game, repeat after me.

Role != Alignment.
Role != Alignment.
Role != Alignment.
Role != Alignment.
Role != Alignment.
Role != Alignment.
Role != Alignment.
Role != Alignment.

Role does not equal alignment.
Possessing a role does not make one inherently town or scum. Fuck, my role's more a scum role than a town role and yet I am town this game.

Do you know what does determine alignment?

USAGE of role.

PLAY determines alignment.

Play > Role. 100% of the time. Always.

Momrangal's play is just about the most possible scum-driven play in existence. There is zero town motivation. There is a self-explanatory, self-evident scum motivation.

[Carrot and Stick]

Funnily enough, you know what's also listed on that page?

Use and Power

If the communication aspect is utilized to its fullest

, this role can be conditionally considered a fair bit weaker than Neighborizer. Since the power of Neighborizer itself is dependent on the player's skill, Courier's value is even more dependent on the player's skill or the value of the information the player has at its disposal.

LITERALLY WRITTEN INTO THE WIKI IS THE OPTIMAL USAGE OF THE ROLE AS A VARIANT ON NEIGHBORIZER.
LITERALLY WRITTEN INTO THE WIKI IS THAT IT IS USEFUL FOR A MASON GAMBIT STYLED GAMBIT.
LITERALLY WRITTEN INTO THE WIKI IS THAT IT IS A COMMUNICATION ROLE BEST USED AS TOWN TO COORDINATE.

[Carrot and Stick]

She had every opportunity to fully bus him today

*ahem*

VOTE: acryon.

Point out where this has moved.
(It hasn't.)

Notice he's letting all this other shit play out and remaining silent yeah?

Much as I'd love to approve of this point, I cannot.

If acryon had been active on site, now we're talkin', not necessarily scum but a fairly good indicator it's possible at the very least.
If acryon was IN THE GAME and yet doing very little/nothing, then fuck yes that's scum.

Sadly, while he is guilty of many crimes, these are not among them.

[Carrot and Stick]

I personally don’t know anyone who would put a scum messenger that looks like town in a game, only a fool would do such a thing

Subject: Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Legacy (Game Over)

Living:]4.

Shahrizai

mykonian was

Voldemort, Mafia Whisperer

, who survived and won the game.

Hey so like.
You know where mykonian's title comes from, right?

It's from a fucking scum Messenger role.

[Carrot and Stick]

The good news: Assembler hasn't siteflaked.
The bad news: still haven't set up a line of communication. (The mod's discord was a 24 hour one which expired or something like that and in spite of the mod SAYING he'd make a more permanent one he hasn't yet.)

In the mean time:

Mathdino will agree with me

Yeah well Mathdino is a moron.

Rather he is technically smart in that he knows not to make horrendous decisions like mislynching me, but he applies that same mindset universally--including to players that are scum. He doesn't have a good way of differentiating between "a horrendous decision which is a mislynch" and "what actually needs to be done because it's a scum lynch".

So, what happens if: We lynch acryon and he flips Town? We lynch mom and she flips Town? We lynch me and I flip Town?
How do your reads change in each case. (I think the best readable answer would be to post 3 read lists, but I will accept a 3-lones explanation for each case of the 3 as well). Thank you.

Nothing changes because reads were formed independently from one another. If acryon for some ungodly reason flipped town, you'd be scum; Momrangal would be scum; the new addition would be Not_Mafia.
If Momrangal somehow flipped town, you'd be scum; acryon would be scum; the new addition would be Not_Mafia.
If you somehow flipped town, acryon would be scum; Momrangal would be scum; the new addition would be Not_Mafia.

[Carrot and Stick]

C: If memory serves, scum!Mastin doesn't flail as hard as they have today when getting attacked

True, scumastina doesn't flail, she raises nothing but good points in her defense, but I question how you think that this is the town-flailing-me rather than scumastina because I haven't flailed and have been raising good points.

Oh sure, acryon is probably scum given his self preservation move, but how about you get off that fence for C&S?

Never a bad idea!
Why don't you?

"...I'm voting you?"

Yes but not for being definitively scum.

Your reason for voting me was "mastina could be scum".
Your reason for voting me was "if mastina flips town, we get some (unspecified) information; if she flips scum, then that's a scum lynch so that's good".

Is this an unfair summary?

Then show me wrong and prove you have a real stance.

just cuz you're blind as shit doesn't mean everyone else is.

Honestly Not_Mafia's probably scum which means one of my three scumreads is wrong but which of them I wouldn't be able to tell you since they are all basically scumclaiming every step of the way.

Seriously Mastina don't be scum.

You know I'm a good enough scum player to play as I have as scum, but fortunately, no guilt needed this game. This is me at my best town levels. The levels where while I might not have the exact scumteam pegged (I have four names for three slots), I have a PRETTY good idea of where the scum are, and aren't.

have you noticed that basically no one has given credence to A50 scumread for the past 2 days

I have, you've just ignored it because you don't want to admit your only supporter there has been fucking MASTINA.



But yes:

it looks like A50 is going through the motions of being good-at-scumhunting-A50 tbh
but he's not actually doing much, or making waves, he's kinda just along for the ride

This is explicitly part of why I am scumreading him.

Frankly the main reasons I haven't voted him:
-I was planning on rolecopping him tonight
-I believe that an acryon lynch has more support
-I am more confident in acryon being scum
-acryon was the lynch Iconeum preferred
-And probably a few miscellaneous others.

But yes.

If support exists, I'd switch my vote there in a heartbeat.

[Carrot and Stick]

(except if she did lie about the JOAT)

It'd take until D4 to fully verify, but I can prove I didn't.
Step one: I use my rolecop tonight, preferably on someone unclaimed; this guarantees that I have the rolecop power.
Step two: I announce a roleblock target, preferably on someone who has an easily proven role; by their role failing to go through, this guarantees that I have the roleblock power.
Given that I'd have two roles rather than one verified, this would all-but certify my JOAT claim.
(Granted a much better plan would be to use the rolecop tonight and save the roleblock until we have one scum left and then the roleblock becomes a cop clear if there's a nightkill, butstill.)

i think a50's defence of marangal against mastina is alignment informed, as is his push to get her lynched

But I think I know what you're doing! You're rolefishing, aren't you? You pushed Dino until he claimed and then found the BG unworthy of the lynch/NK. You probably caught Icon crumbing (you did admit you knew he was a backup JOAT) so you shot him. You probably are pushing me to get a claim and evaluate whether my role is worthy of being the N2 NK. Well, guess what? I'm not going to give you a claim even of I was run to L-1.

i also believe a50 knows better than this

Yes which is one reason why I have believed Almost50 and Momrangal to be scumbuddies.

They're afraid of my role because they know that as a rolecop (well, 1x rolecop from the JOAT), I can out scum lies.

Incidentally I need to check the timing of 1095 compared to when I claimed my investigative was a rolecop. Obviously, this isn't a point if I claimed the rolecop AFTER 1095, but if I claimed it BEFORE 1095, then the point is self-evidently shit because I don't need to fucking rolefish as a fucking rolecop. I just use my fucking role. (I didn't use it last night, but I came REAL close to doing so. Kinda regret not going through with it now.)

[Carrot and Stick]

Rats.
The rolecop claim was indeed after the post.
So no point there, regrettably.

[Carrot and Stick]

Honestly I'm starting to really consider the idea that Mastina is scum here. more importantly I'm struggling to actually process everything that's going on through the epic walls of text...

There's a direct correlation between the two, and yes there is a causation.

scumastina knows when to shut up because by NOT saying things, she often gains an edge in discussions.
But I don't know how or when to just not talk as town; I can't shut up. So there's walls, which are harder to process.

Basically it's a question of precision. scumastina is precise, with every point accurate and refined such that only the most important things shine through, thus allowing her to look good; I am, unfortunately in spite of every effort to deliberately mimic scumastina, not precise, and thus the message gets muddied in the waters because I lose the focus and the important points are hard to pick out from the unimportant ones.

guys for fuck's sake
if i of all people am the only one defending mastina
there's no way she's scum here
scum doesn't bus mastina, there's no towncred in it
let's wagon A50

This was exactly my point, yes!

A50 doesn't feel like town A50, he feels like he's just looking like he's a presence in the game
when i feel like if he didn't want to be a presence in the game, he wouldn't be defending himself the way he is
plus his arguments for mastina-scum are shit

To put it another way--there is a clear scum motive in Almost50's posts. He is pushing a scum agenda at every turn with his actions. Looking good but not doing anything ACTUALLY good.

There is not the signature town motive from Almost50. Almost50 is frankly the one player I'd say more deserves moonlogic as a title than the holder Titus, but while he raises those moonlogicky points as either alignment, when he's town no matter how shitty they are they still have a type of internal consistency. They are logical and reasonable coming from a specific, albeit highly flawed and wildly inaccurate base. His points this game don't fit that; there is no perspective from which they are justified and they do not mesh with Almost50's prior games/experience/narrative in this game.

For the record.
My townbloc would be, top tier (as in, "these players are NEVER flipping scum so ABSOLUTELY DO NOT LYNCH THEM"), The Worst/BuJaber/Mathdino/InfernoBrafin, maaaaybe Beefster
Second-tier (as in, "these players are INCREDIBLY unlikely to flip scum so DO NOT LYNCH THEM UNTIL EVERYONE BELOW THEM IS DEAD") Beefster if not in top-tier
Third-tier (as in, "pretty reasonably strongly town but not unlynchable, yet still LYNCH THOSE BELOW BEFORE CONSIDERING") and working his way up to second tier kthxbye.

Leaving Not_Mafia, Momrangal, acryon, and Almost50 as outside the townbloc.

[Carrot and Stick]

Reminder to look for signs of people knowing my protective wouldn't work.

I seem to distinctly recall at one point a sentiment of "if the protection isn't proven, lynch Mathdino" coming from one or two players at some point, yes. Can't remember the actual wording used though or who it came from, unfortunately.

A50 does pretty much nothing for most of the rest of the day

Yes, and when have you ever known Almost50 to do pretty much nothing in a day?

I sure haven't seen it from him as town.

I don't think I would mind a nolynch. I don't understand worsts? Notion that both slots were largely town read. Sure both slots were unlikely to get lynched today but both slots were far from being largely townread

#waffleposting

Which alignment does waffleposting more often?

Marangal is a more popular scumread and I'm a mafia hipster so I can't support that wagon.

Surprisingly given everything I've said, it might shock you to learn that of Almost50/Momrangal/acryon, the one who I'd most think I could be wrong on is Momrangal, so given that, my sentiment is actually much the same.

She's still >random odds of being scum, but for Not_Mafia to be scum,

someone

in the unholy trinity needs to be town and honestly that's what I'm feeling. I'd lynch her in a heartbeat. She's still likely scum, and if I'm wrong on a different scumread (e.g. Not_Mafia's actually just sadly town), then she's definitely scum. I still believe all the points against her are heavily incriminating and largely indicative OF her being scum, too.

It's just that there's four scumreads and three scum slots so ONE of them has to be town and yes she is in fact possibly town as a consequence.

(Incidentally, this is precisely what I mean by muddying the waters and lacking precision. By stating the above I'm almost assuredly shooting myself in the foot, but because it's the truth, I decided that it's something I should share in spite of the risk/consequences. It will be ridiculously easy to misconstrue this in a way to diminish my scumread on Momrangal, to state it's gone away or it's not real or it's weaker than I've said or so on and so forth you get the idea. But it's something I feel needs to be said.)

[Carrot and Stick]

Ok, but your argument on this is all theoretical, especially considering the outcome. Sure, people were

interested

in a lynch over a NL for the sake of it, but we never even got very close to a real lynch.

Oh really?

(3) Iconeum: TheGoldenParadox, Not_Mafia, acryon

Mathdino was also voting Iconeum at a point--that's 4/7 needed.
Beefster was also voting Iconeum at a point--

(4) Iconeum: TheGoldenParadox, Beefster, Not_Mafia, acryon

...that's 5/7 needed.
BuJaber voted for Iconeum, even if it's not showed on the votecount.
That's 6/7 needed.
Iconeum, admittedly out of frustration, self-voted. If he had kept that, that'd have been 7/7 right then and there.

We got very fucking close to a real lynch.

People keep on claiming, "Why gladiate Iconeum knowing that Iconeum wouldn't have been lynched?"

...Except Iconeum came DANGEROUSLY FUCKING CLOSE to being lynched.

Yes those votes materialized at different times, such that Iconeum never surpassed L-2, but that was largely because I was raising hell telling people not to lynch him.

The fact of the matter is we DID get close to a lynch. So my argument is NOT hypothetical. To reiterate:

So did acryon, who easily could've gladiators 2 town lurkers

Why gladiate players who can be mislynched without the gladiate? Answer me that question. Why would you, if you were scum, gladiate players who you know can be lynched without using the gladiate on them?

That is wasting the gladiate. Because players who can be mislynched without the gladiate...can be mislynched without using the gladiate. And thus should be left for later.

Except that the ability of town to alternatively vote for a NL makes most of this invalid. And the number of people supporting a NL

in the face of the theory and possible scumreads you mentioned

is evidence that the rest of your argument along this line is nonsense.

Except no not really.

Even assuming you did in fact know it was possible, you would not necessarily think that possible = assured. I laid out precisely why people would be willing to mislynch Iconeum/Mathdino post-gladiate when unwilling to do so pre-gladiate and unless you can counter THAT point my argument stands. We did eventually no-lynch, sure, yes...but we did so only after I fought for it and advocated for it and gave good reasons for it. For every post you can quote of a player supporting a no-lynch, I can quote at least an equal number of posts from players stating they'd be willing to if not outright PREFERRING we lynch. And no matter how much you try to ignore those posts, the fact that they exist backs my argument up.

And in what world does scum choose to gladiate two players that would be difficult to get people to come to consensus on instead of ensuring a lynch by picking at least 1 player with a lot of heat?

In a world where that fucking consensus ACTUALLY CAME DANGEROUSLY CLOSE TO FORMING. That being, this world. You are treating the lack of a lynch D1 as evidence that it was a given we'd no-lynch.

The simple fact is we almost mislynched Iconeum.

Instead, Iconeum was the scum's fucking strongman nightkill.

Scum fucking STRONGMAN NIGHTKILLED.

The player who CAME DANGEROUSLY CLOSE TO BEING MISLYNCHED.

Difficult != impossible, by the way. Consensus came oh so dangerously close to mislynching Iconeum--thereby giving scum all the justification in the world for forcing a gladiate onto him.

Ok sure, but there are presumably a million ways to gladiate as scum that can produce a better outcome than just not lynching scum.

Yes, but the question isn't "what is what I, personally, think the best usage of the role as scum is". The question is "what acryon, personally, would think the best usage of the role as scum is".

And the best possible usage of the role is to one, immediately avert the scum lynch (first priority), and then two, as the afterthought, achieve a town mislynch on the two players most threatening as seen from your perspective to the scumteam, who had the highest chances of being mislynched post-gladiate.

Mathdino was an obvious choice because thanks to me his townread had tanked.

Iconeum was an obvious choice because thanks to another town player (was it Mathdino, InfernoBrafin, the worst, or BuJaber?), his status as a universal townread was called into question.

This made both plausible mislynches. And it didn't matter who got mislynched. Fuck, scum could've been surprised it was Iconeum people voted for and expected it to be Mathdino.

My point, then, more or less, is a matter of scum objectives. The first objective is to not be lynched; you achieved this. The second objective is to get a mislynch; Mathdino made obvious sense and Iconeum went from near-universal-townread to almost-mislynched so that was another smart, pro-scum choice.

Kthxbye's posts have been bad.

If acryon were town, this would be accompanied by an extensive explanation as to the why.

I don't understand where people are getting the "this is scum A50" from. Haven't played with the slot enough, but not giving much of a further explanation isn't helpful in helping anyone understand that gutread.

This is scum defending scum.

For the record, that entire paragraph is filled to the brim with scum, it's just these are the most egregious parts.

[Carrot and Stick]

@acryon: Man, you quoted and responded to none of my posts, but you're just calling me weird for... the A50 read?

There's an obvious explanation for this!

Which your blind insistence on acryon being town because of lolchaos...well, blinds you to.

[Carrot and Stick]

It also feels in general like you're taking sort of a backseat and letting C&S drive the game, which has already proven to be quite bad for town.

Aside from the lol that is stating Mathdino's letting me drive the game (in fact that's so much a lol let's give it a response: ), there's also the fact that letting me drive the game has:
-Prevented us from mislynching the player scum fucking strongman killed
-Prevented us from mislynching one of our protectives.

...So, me driving the town?

Sorry, mate.

Not a bad thing.

What did letting YOU drive the game get?
-A guaranteed choice between mislynches...
-Almost mislynching the player scum fucking strongman killed...
-...And ultimately a no-lynch because it was the best of bad choices.

I'm quite happy with my resume this game. Wouldn't even take the Mathdino push back; I'd count it as among the highlights actually in spite of--actually BECAUSE OF--it being wrong. (Why? Well that's mafia theory talk, but basically, the way I scumhunt works on a specific style of engagement; engage the players I think are scum in a specific way until I have reason to think otherwise. This heavyhanded engagement also is part of what I call "the magic of talking", in that by pushing a player, I create a specific type of content which is useful in continuously judging the player and tremendously helpful for reevaluating down the road with hindsight. In other words, I firmly believe town would not be in the position to lynch scum today if I hadn't pushed for the Mathdino lynch when I had. Sometimes, to be right, first you have to be wrong, as it were. Thus, it's a highlight of the game for me.)

Can you say the same?

...Well yes, you can, because you're scum and your actions were those of a scumfuck, but can you say that your resume this game is a good one for town to have? Sure doesn't look impressive from where I'm standing.

[Carrot and Stick]

You know what's still bothering me? That no one has come up with a good solution to C&S's claim that they had a gunsmith-like guilty on MD, but it was D1 with no N0, and it obviously wasn't incriminating enough to push at a gladiator lynch, but incriminating enough to choke the entire thread with walls. This seems very much out of the ballpark, but maybe I just missed something in the skim. Would someone like to clarify?

Yes, you did in fact miss something by skimming.

Spoiler: Explanation

you claimed a gunsmith guilty on me before i ever claimed my role

To the contrary! I did not

claim

a 'gunsmith guilty' on you before you claimed your role.

I claimed it after.

I

stated

the gunsmith thing a grand total of once before then, which was indeed before your claim. It served a particular purpose which was loosely but only indirectly related. I had good reason for that but given I've no interest in fullclaiming I shouldn't go into detail. My softing for my role is such that you'll probably understand exactly what I was doing/going for when I flip/fullclaim but before then will remain confused as to what the fuck I actually am. Given that I am firmly of the opinion that the ambiguity doesn't hurt the town and yet helps the town by not helping the scum, I'd prefer to keep it that way.

I elaborate on this further when I actually go through on the claim--

I stated that my mention of gunsmith had a meaning. (By NRG standards, a JOAT with a cop power, which a rolecop qualifies as, would show as having a gun; in contrast, a JOAT with a doctor power, in spite of a normal doctor having no gun, does not make someone appear as having none. I was also referencing roles, in that I was hinting that I could look at Mathdino's ROLE. Because. Yaknow. That's what a rolecop does.)

Otherwise, her saying she had a gunsmith guilty on Dino makes no sense

My rolecop is a night action; I said this on D1; there was no N0 and I was a replacement into this game anyway. It was meant as a breadcrumb/softclaim, yes, but not in that way.

To reiterate: I have not used my rolecop. I was breadcrumbing I HAD a rolecop. To put it another way--

My original interpretation through the day was that mastina was either using a metaphor or noticed I was softclaiming protective.

It's not column A or column B, but moreso part of both. It'd be a lie to say I rather explicitly thought Mathdino was a protective, but I did have some sense of Mathdino (think akin to me knowing Iconeum was a backup to my role, it's not something which I put much stock into but is something that was kinda...

there

), such that I did use something akin to a metaphor, in regards to my action. I breadcrumbed/softclaimed the existence of my role as a way to indicate more or less my general feeling there, if that makes sense.

[Carrot and Stick]

Does town!Mastina derail the town this much?

It's one of my strongest towntells. It's also something which is often not a bad thing because sometimes the town needs to be derailed if it's on the tracks to a town loss. (I'd say it's about 55/45 on useful/detrimental--something which

does

help SLIGHTLY more often than not, but not by much; it hurts the town almost as often as it helps the town.)

Look the fact of the matter is, if I can sell people on the townbloc and the don't-lynch-pool, then we're definitely lynching in
{Not_Mafia, IB, Kthx, Marangal, A50}

Then I just need to sell people on either
A. A50's slot has throughout the entire game appeared to be doing things without actually doing things.
B. I can successfully gutread A50.
C. A50 is just scummier than the other 4.

I mean the only thing in there which I don't have is that you have InfernoBrafin in there when they don't deserve to be and have acryon out when he very much deserves to be in. (kthx doesn't quite deserve to be lumped in with the lot, but I'm not as adamant about that, so I'll let you have it.)

[Carrot and Stick]

The whole point is that A50 hasn't pinged you. Town-A50 pings the fuck out of SOMEONE in every game he's in, and I'm usually the one to locktown him. He's a scummy guy. But here he's just kind of sitting back.

Yes, and which alignment do you think this makes the person stating that Almost50 hasn't pinged them?

Problem is I could say that for a lot of the people in this game. Doesn't feel to me like he's sitting back any more than some others.

One, name names; this statement is useless without stating exactly who you are lumping him in with.
Two: the fact other players do it does not diminish the scumminess of having done it in the first place.
Three: ESPECIALLY given that other players in the list might always be that way (and thus, meta supports them having played that way), whereas with Almost50, his meta is that he DOESN'T play that way (and thus, it is incredibly suspicious that he is).

[Carrot and Stick]

Mastina is calling me scum. She is explaining why, but she won't lynch me. She won't even vote me even though I challenged her twice.

I only have one vote.
I have four scumspects (one of which must be wrong).

This is self-evident.

If I'm scum then it shouldn't matter which of her reads she votes and pushes to a lynch

Yes, precisely--with you as scum it doesn't matter which of my scumreads I push and vote to a lynch, and acryon is another.

So what makes my vote not being on you noteworthy when if it was on you, you could make this very same argument except substituting acryon's name in? (That being, "mastina is calling acryon scum, and explaining why, but won't lynch him, or vote him. If he was scum, it shouldn't matter which of her reads she votes and pushes to a lynch". What stops you from making that argument if my vote was on you? ...Yeah, my fucking point exactly. Nothing.)

OKay those reads are disastrous carrot/kthnxbye/IB

(Kthnx/IB/carrot&sticks)
Calling that out as the scum team now

For the record.

This makes me pretty sure that Momrangal and Not_Mafia aren't actually scum together.
So I'm pretty sure the scumteam is EITHER:
Almost50/acryon/Momrangal, OR:
Almost50/acryon/Not_Mafia.

I actually lean towards the latter, because I have ever so slightest a correction to make.
There is in fact one interaction which I will not be disclosing at this time that does in fact make Momrangal less likely to be scum with one of Almost50/acryon (which one, I will not state at this time, as it'd help narrow down what that specific interaction is and thus let scum potentially muddy the waters).

I'll share said interaction if/when need be, but right now I don't think it's pertinent information. Stating it exists and what the consequences of it existing are should be sufficient enough for the time being.

So yes.

I'd lynch Almost50/acryon/Not_Mafia right now. I'd lynch Momrangal push come to shove, but she'd be the player I'd least want to lynch out of those four. By a rather significant margin.

[Carrot and Stick]

okay guys no one has A50 in their lynchpools yet no one is actually outright townreading him or explaining a townread
it's just "meh a50 hasn't pinged me at all"

Which is because he's scum and scum don't want to bus him.

people are too okay with too many people being lynched

What say you to the people who fit this criteria?

and kthx/IB scumteam is laughable

Yes indeed--so which alignment do you think has a greater motive to push the ridiculous idea? (Especially given how 'easy' those reads are?)

Furthermore, it should be notable to you.

Mathdino:

Both kthx and InfernoBrafin are inside of your lynch pool.
Did it occur to you that the players naming them as scumspects could in fact be buddying/parroting/sheeping/etc. you?

[Carrot and Stick]

Hey Almost50. Did you do anything last night with w/e role you have? I don't want specifics, just curious. I'd ask the same of NM, but he's just a douche disrupter and doesn't answer questions thrown at him anyway.

Without any specifics, I did.

Bull fucking shit. Barring someone doing something to me last night to prevent my night action, this is a lie. Or its the truth and he did the scum NK.

Hey so like.
You know how kthx was not in my top tier town?

He is now.

There is no world where kthx makes this claim as scum.

None.

There can be worlds where kthx as town mistakenly claims a false guilty on town, theoretically speaking that is.
But since Almost50 is a scumfuck, I'd be more inclined to believe:
EITHER: we live in a world where kthx as town has a false guilty on scum...
OR: we live in a world where kthx as town has an actual guilty on scum.

Either way, the answer is obvious.
VOTE: Almost50.

[Carrot and Stick]

Ok call me thick, but what is happening here? Why is A50 scum?

This is a scumbuddy who is trying to worm their way out of letting their scumbuddy die.

[Carrot and Stick]

acryon stop rolefishing and join the scum wagon

Most of the games I've played in have had very few roles, and none have been close to this. No chance I am flipping from my strongest scumread to voting a townread based on a claim I don't understand at all.

This excuse doesn't hold water.

A game being heavier in PRs is not a justification for not voting a role fucking guilty.

And a role fucking guilty is cause for...

...Oh yeah!

Read evaluation.

The town response to having your scumread claim a guilty on a townread isn't to try and justify continuing to vote the scumread.

The town response to having your scumread claim a guilty on a townread is to reevaluate--what better chance to check out the players listing reasons to scumread Almost50? What better chance to take another look at Almost50's posts and see if they are scum? What better chance to check out kthx's posts to see if his play matches his claim? (It does.) What better chance to recheck kthx's play and see if it makes sense coming from town?

But he doesn't do these things because he isn't approaching this from the perspective of town.

He's approaching this from the perspective of "ohhhhhhhhhhhhh shit" scum.

[Carrot and Stick]

Hmmmm.... would have thought a scum acryon would bus immediately....

No, because bussing fucks the scum over here. There's just too many associatives which condemn the team. Almost50 flipping scum, for instance, clears BuJaber among many others and also clears kthx who can then use his role to further fuck the scum over especially given so many protectives are still alive. (I'm alive, Mathdino is alive, and while his jailkeep would roleblock kthx, Beefster is alive, too.)

Almost50 is also the scum's star player--can you think of any other players this game aside from me and Mathdino (because we're both town) that qualify? Well, Momrangal's possible but see also she's not necessarily actually scum this game. Nobody else fits the bill. acryon can't carry the scumteam ESPECIALLY not given the heavy suspicion he's under; if Not_Mafia is the third scumfuck, well that is self-explanatory as to why scum can't place their hopes on him.

Scum won't bus because they

can't

bus. If they bus, they lose, and they fucking KNOW they lose by bussing.

So they'll fight, and try to get out of the scum lynch by any means necessary.

[Carrot and Stick]

How common is a lynched role in role madness games?

If you meant lyncher, this game is explicitly groupscum vs. town, no third parties, no multiball. Players are either town or scum. Scum PRESUMABLY number three, no more no less. For all intents and purposes, this is as close to confirmed 10:3 as we can get without it being confirmed 10:3.

Scum me is almost never lost or indecisive, because I already know whom to push and I would always find a way/reason to push them too.

Funny, this sounds like the perfect description for your play this game!

Unfortunately, Not_Mafia is also scum here
He doesn't bus usually

Indeed he is, but one scum at a time. He's common ground so we can get him D3 and after that by that point acryon should be hopelessly exposed for D4 so.

I have zero reason to believe that Kthxbye is not still scum.

You would if town.

kthxbye, if scum, has entered into a 1v1 WILLINGLY, where if Almost50 were town...
...Then kthxbye, as scum, would be condemning himself to be auto-lynched.

As a consequence, kthxbye never pulls this stunt as scum.

This is not advanced scumhunting logic; this is scumhunting 101. Basics of the game. You don't lynch the cop claiming the guilty; you lynch the fucking guilty first. The game's WELL outside of lylo. When a guilty is claimed outside of lylo, the person claiming the guilty is not scum, LEAST of all because of how little they gain from it and how much they lose from it. What does kthxbye, as scum, gain from lynching Almost50?
Lynching a player who was already in players' radars for being scum, a second night to nightkill a player, and that's it.
What does kthxbye, as scum, lose from lynching Almost50? His life, and any chance of lynching a player who we were potentially mislynching today (e.g. myself, potentially Momrangal if she's town).

Risk-reward analysis. He loses a lot; he doesn't gain much of anything.

This is not some advanced theory only elite scumhunters use.
This is literally Road to Rome level of basics. A fucking newbie knows this shit.

So a town-acryon would, too.

[Carrot and Stick]

I'm going to be floored if everyone on the Kthx wagon is town here.

They're not; Almost50/acryon/Not_Mafia are all scum.

[Carrot and Stick]

Add mastina to the list since she claimed to have a roleblock. Don't remember that she said she used it so let's see what she says about kthx.

I've been rather explicit about my night action.

I will not state for obvious reasons whether last night I holstered or used the doc (scum are best left in the dark/guessing on that front), but I did not use either the roleblock or rolecop.

Edit: Yeah there's no way Kthx was roleblocked. Jailkeeper claim and roleblocker claim.

Indeed.

If we seriously no lynch when both lynch options were mislynches and then lynch A50 here scum might as well surrender now and save everyone time

For the fact, yes.

Ok wait a second. Stack the Deck does show a similar playstyle to this game. But so does Winter Wonderland, where N_M was

town

, and you were also in that one. So are you pretending to not remember it?

Mathdino, are you still going to insist acryon is town when he defends both your (correct) scumreads on Almost50 and Not_Mafia at every turn?

[Carrot and Stick]

Pretend for a second I have super town cred

lol

'lol' is, has been, and always will, not be an acceptable substitute to a valid line of reasoning.

kthx's question was in fact a valid one. If he were an innocent child level of town claiming the result he did, would Almost50 still be town?

[Carrot and Stick]

Well, I DID take an action, and I'm not disclosing it still.

Difference between town and scum, illustrated.
kthx, when asked to and under pressure from the 1v1, claims.
Almost50, when asked to and under pressure from the 1v1, refuses.

Which has a greater scum motive?
Which has a greater town motive?

[Carrot and Stick]

Guys this isn't hard. If we have an investigative claim out of the blue a guilty on a random universal nullread (or a difficult to sort slot), YOU DON'T FUCKING LYNCH THE INVESTIGATIVE. WHAT THE HELL. You lynch the guilty ALWAYS, and then lynch the investigative if wrong. How often do you seriously see scum fake guilties?

#logic.

Mathdino is, 100%, absolutely correct here.

Quite seriously.
This is Road to fucking Rome level of basic fundamentals of the game.
You can play in any Newbie game, and the Newbies will know this and follow it.

NEWBIES know how to do this shit.
Because it's that fucking basic.
It's fundamental logic.

Go look at theory debates in MD. Or rather, theory talk, because there's not so much a debate because everyone fucking agrees on what the right play is. (Hint: lynching the person claiming the guilty? Not it.) Debate requires there to be a divisive opinion and this is literally fucking universal.
Go look at any past game featuring a cop guilty. You don't fucking lynch the cop claim; you lynch the fucking guilty the cop got.

It REALLY isn't that hard to grasp.

[Carrot and Stick]

I like how Math is just ignoring that kthnxbye is refusing to explain why he thought no result mean A50 made the NK and just dismissing everyone telling no result doesn't mean what he says it meant

I like how you continuously pretend kthx didn't explain his viewpoint when he did and his viewpoint has no contradiction in perspective and is internally consistent with his stated stances.

[Carrot and Stick]

Exactly...Unless he can follow multiple a night (is this even a thing?), it sounds like he was hedging and waiting to see which of us answered yes first to pounce on.

This is a fine thought!

...Except...

If you look back, I asked EVERYONE to say if they did an action lady night for that reason

...If you check, this is in fact the case! kthx asked

everyone

if they took an action last night.

Not just acryon.
Not just Almost50.
Everyone.

And MULTIPLE people had said 'yes' before.

[Carrot and Stick]

i'm actually really impressed at how difficult A50 is to lynch
given that he makes himself such an universally attractive lynch option when he's town lol

That's the difference between town and scum, yes.

If No Result is only from being blocked, I take the entire accusation back and we are back to square one

Not exactly. We gain three facts.
1: kthxbye is town. I mean, you're town anyway, but we still gain this even if No Result is from being blocked.
2: Either Beefster and Momrangal both lied (Beefster blocking kthx, Momrangal not having sent a message), OR there is some other blocking power in the game. (This actually isn't impossible, btw, I'll tell you why when caught up, basically mod was rather confused when I said scum couldn't have a roleblocker so asked me how I knew they couldn't have one and I explained it was because I was one, the mod's answer to my logic is why this isn't impossible.)
3: Regardless of which of the above is the case (it'd be far more likely the latter than the former for what it's worth), Almost50 would still be scum.
The way scum have reacted to this would make me think "caught for the wrong reasons": KNOWING they are scum, and KNOWING the 'guilty' isn't actually accurate, but being frustrated that because of the guilty scum are getting lynched anyway.

So not back to square one. We still fucking lynch Almost50. Him not having a guilty on him doesn't change his alignment; he's still scum regardless of whether he's scum guiltied or scum false-guiltied.

[Carrot and Stick]

This isn't road to rome

Yeah because if it were players would actually be using basic mafia fundamentals like don't lynch the fucking cop claiming a guilty.

[Carrot and Stick]

I'll protect you as long as mastina's doc goes on Kthx. Kthx should obviously not out his target at all.

My plan is to use my rolecop tonight tho.

One problem the scum have this game is that there's too many town to kill. You, me, Beefster if he's town, the worst, and now kthx among others.
One problem the town protectives have is that there's too many targets for scum to kill. It's hard to predict who they'll go after.
I'd think the best idea would be for you to not announce your target or even your pool, and if I have the doc to flip a coin between using it or using the rolecop, also with an unannounced target pool. (Though if one of us needs a target pool, it'd be me.)
Beefster's probably best used as a roleblocker rather than protective at this point.

If we have overlap, then oh well, unfortunate, but it allows us to cover more ground and make the scum's job harder.

[Carrot and Stick]

I think we should elect someone to ultimately control the night actions.

That would be you.
I mean I can do it, but I'm prone to errors.
I'm best fit to refine existing plans and correct any errors you make.

[Carrot and Stick]

That's a great argument as to why not all those players are town

Counterpoint: this is a fucking role madness game; with strong town players...
...You need strong scum players.

...What was one of the main arguments in favor of acryon being town yesterday?
Something about his role being too strong to give to scum?

...Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

[Carrot and Stick]

90% or more. Scum!acryon would've definitely went the easier route and voted me here.

Oh?

What's so easy about voting you again?

Do tell because to my recollection you never got over half way to the lynch.

What's so easy about voting kthx?

I can name a few things!

[Carrot and Stick]

See A50 is still scum by play here though. He's simultaneously trying to lynch Kthx but also put up a barrier for himself to not get lynched tomorrow. Meanwhile, Kthx is basically arguing for a full-on gladiate, which he's currently losing, and which certainly gets him lynched tomorrow.

There's a term for that!
It's called "trying to have your cake and eat it, too".
I use it all the time, you should try to spice your language up with an expression or two, too.

But yes. Dead on the money in the stark contrast between the two; difference between them is night and fucking day.
kthx commits to the guilty and is holding himself fully accountable for it.
Almost50 is voting based around the guilty and yet trying to worm out of being accountable for it. Because yes:

Either A50 believes the Follower claim and the claim is NAI, or he doesn't, and he shouldn't even be hedging here. Then there's also all the other ways A50 is scum by play but if anyone's gonna make a case that everyone's gonna ignore, it'll be mastina, not me.

What is Kthx's scum motivation here?

All of this. Literally ALL of it. kthx's scum motivation is nonexistent.
Almost50's scum motivation is to:
-Survive today
-Get a mislynch
-And avoid being lynched tomorrow.

[Carrot and Stick]

OH MY FUCKING GOD.

MATHDINO

.

I KNOW YOU IGNORE MY POSTS.

BUT YOU NEED TO READ THIS FROM ACRYON.

I think

you lynch someone that, to your point, would have been very difficult to lynch

, and

have a fairly easy out when they flip town

(hint: we're living that out right now).

What is Kthx's scum motivation

now

? I think he's too far in to turn back, so I think he has to push forward and hope people will side with him. I presume C&S will come in and wall about how A50 is scum, and I think that's what Kthx has to hope for at this point.

READ THE EMPHASIZED PART OF THIS.

Why is this important?

...Now, tell me.
What action did acryon use on D1?
Who did he use it on?

How would you describe Iconeum and you, Mathdino?
Would you agree with me that both Iconeum and yourself qualify as players who would be very difficult to lynch?

[Carrot and Stick]

OH MY FUCKING GOD.

MATHDINO

.

I KNOW YOU IGNORE MY POSTS.

BUT YOU NEED TO READ THIS FROM ACRYON.

I think

you lynch someone that, to your point, would have been very difficult to lynch

, and

have a fairly easy out when they flip town

(hint: we're living that out right now).

What is Kthx's scum motivation

now

? I think he's too far in to turn back, so I think he has to push forward and hope people will side with him. I presume C&S will come in and wall about how A50 is scum, and I think that's what Kthx has to hope for at this point.

READ THE EMPHASIZED PART OF THIS.

Why is this important?

...Now, tell me.
What action did acryon use on D1?
Who did he use it on?

How would you describe Iconeum and you, Mathdino?
Would you agree with me that both Iconeum and yourself qualify as players who would be very difficult to lynch?

And FURTHERMORE.

Would you agree with me that acryon (especially given how he is not under nearly as much suspicion as he should be in part because you keep fucking writing him off), having gladiated you and Iconeum, had a fairly easy out? That he pushed forward and hoped people wouldn't side against him? That he hoped I'd come in and wall about why you were scum or something to that effect?

[Carrot and Stick]

there's a soft guilty on you and you're not fullclaiming

Precisely. Almost50's reaction has been that of a scum player every step of the way.

[Carrot and Stick]

Stop trying to ruin my play.

[Carrot and Stick]

You also gladiated the 2 town players working on writing a case for you, so forgive me if I assume that your reads this game have been almost entirely self-centred.

What alignment do you think, generally speaking, has reads which are more self-centered?

...Especially coming from a player who is not shitty like acryon by your own account is not? (That being, by your own experience, acryon's not a shitty player.)

[Carrot and Stick]

Acryon I asked you because I find it weird that a townie would be unwilling to give some the benefit of the doubt that they messed up their role when you yourself was given the benefit of the doubt that you messed up your role.

Precisely. It's hypocrisy at its finest.