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[GuiltyLion]

what's up gamers!

VOTE: marcistar

why aren't you voting?

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: scamper

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: scamper

oh this is spicy, i'd like to hear more

also i'm not getting great vibes from nero still

Why is it spicy? Do you think scamper's ISO is especially townie or something?

his first few posts are fluff, I don't like the phrasing of 108 it doesn't actually give me any idea why scamper thinks HEM is scum while being an easy thing to say to justify your vote, 110 is offensively non-offensive. 114 also gave me a feel of trying to stir shit around Nero without actually directly getting involved.

@Ydrasse

what do you see as town here?

[GuiltyLion]

addendum I forgot to add, specifically I really dislike the trailing "..." on 114, that's what gives me the shit stirring vibe. like if you think Nero being wrong in 113 means something, say that, if you don't, what's the point of the post

[GuiltyLion]

the questions about why dont feel like theyre aimed at actually sorting

what makes you say they're not aimed at sorting? 103 directly lead to 105 which feels like useful content from fire

[GuiltyLion]

Why do you think she should be?

cause that's what gets the game out of a no-information state, voting

also you should know by now Gamma that I constantly hound people to vote their scumreads? we just went over this in Eurybia's curse, being in a state of Not Voting is literally the least useful thing you can do in the game.

[GuiltyLion]

i wanna say skitter scum because she was taking nero's obvious shitpost as serious, but i feel like i have been wrong on that exact thing before

Hi Datisi!

why would skitter being scum make her less likely to recognize Nero's shitpost?

[GuiltyLion]

I've decided Datisi is scum but we should let him live because he's cool

Datisi I'm putting you in the penalty box, you're gonna need to start wowing me with some better reads to get out

[GuiltyLion]

the same way, no. which is why i am not uberlocktowning him.

Ok but this doesn't address my concern. Am I wrong that you are townreading him because he sucked up to you in the one game he played as scum with town you and you think he would play the same way here? If I'm not, why do you believe that?

yes. he said in that game that he fearkilled me. which means that he fears my towngame. assuming nothing has changed since then, and he still has the same thoughts on it, i highly doubt he enters this game with "actually datisi is scummy tho lol" because scum!him would KNOW i would become obvtown later on (he hasn't yet witnessed the scumlordtisi arc, i think), while town!him would absolutely poke me early if he thought i was being out of line

I dunno if this is useful to point out but I see people talking about me / my meta and I feel obligated to comment

it's less that I fear you becoming obvtown and dominating the game and more that I fear you sensing that my vibes are scummy/off and making life hard for me as a result, cause a) you in particular pay more attention to how I'm playing or how hard I'm trying and b) because I feel like when we're both town we vibe in a way that I dunno if I can replicate as scum

if town!you really entered the game purposefully playing bad/scummy specifically to reaction test me to see if I call you out, that just further proves it a valid fear I think

[GuiltyLion]

I don't like the phrasing of 108 it doesn't actually give me any idea why scamper thinks HEM is scum

do i need to explain myself on page 5?

110 is offensively non-offensive.

ok

114 also gave me a feel of trying to stir shit around Nero without actually directly getting involved.

im just disagreeing with a thing he said. like, if i wanted to "stir shit", id just call him scum

addendum I forgot to add, specifically I really dislike the trailing "..." on 114, that's what gives me the shit stirring vibe. like if you think Nero being wrong in 113 means something, say that, if you don't, what's the point of the post

thats just how i type...

scamper, let me into your head a bit, why did you feel compelled to respond to my case on you? I was sharing that mainly for skitter's benefit, but I didn't try to engage with you in the post and if you're town and I'm wrong I'd expect you to understand it's pretty early game reasoning. Are you normally a defensive player as town? Do you have prior town games where you decided to reply point by point defending against an early case like this? I don't feel like you're trying to really sort me with this reply either, so it just kinda feels like a defensive post for ?? reason, help me fill in the blank

[GuiltyLion]

@gl i responded to ur explanation to ur scamper vote on the previous page

ok, looking at that post, my main thought is like... okay? I get you disagree with my read. I'm not confident enough in the vote to start trying to appeal to the game and corralling votes there, so I don't really want to argue the Finer Points of it, you disagree, cool.

and I don't get why you say you don't think they "merited" a vote, like imo we're at a stage of the game where no vote should be off the table. Who do you think I should have been voting instead?

[GuiltyLion]

where no vote should be off the table

sorry I'm realizing this phrasing might be ambiguous

by "no vote should be off the table", I mean "no particular individual is above being voted", not "everyone should no longer be no voting" (although I would say that is true as well!)

[GuiltyLion]

why would i not respond to a case on me even if it's early game reasons? i dont, like, care that u were pushing me there in terms of what it means for ur alignment but im not just going to let that stuff slide

is your goal to help me read you or is it to ensure that no one else agrees with me about you?

[GuiltyLion]

GL, you wanna vote FB?

I wanna finish reading up with the game first but I will say so far I haven't found anything to TR in Fire

@Fire can you channel some of that Holiday Dance Energy cause you were like my favoritest most top townread there and I'd like to have that experience again

[GuiltyLion]

Bolded are places where I was surprised at GuiltyLion feeling a little firey, a little overly negative, something off about the vibe.
I dunno maybe I'm inserting a tone that isn't there but I just got negative vibes from a lot of these posts? Like a puppy trying to assert dominance. Whereas I feel like from InnocentLion I'm used to something a bit more like an older dog slowly and professor-ishly catching scum.

No offense @GL I'm just using the best silly metaphor I can think of

hmmm this is interesting

I get where you're coming from, I do think I've been slightly more on the aggressive side this game, but I think that's probably because it's a large with a bunch of vets so I feel I need to be more direct and to the point to actually glean memorable/useful info. and also because one of our past games was a Newbie and I try to put the kiddie gloves on in Newbies

[GuiltyLion]

scamper u stink

Marci town

do tell

how is this post different in your mind than HEM's 103 that you took issue with in 148?

[GuiltyLion]

also people weighing in on Datisi in page 18 - I actually loosely TR Datisi's explanation, or at least think as either alignment he did genuinely plan to reaction test me in that way. And then once I buy that it was a reaction test, I don't really have reason to SR him. I want to trust that if Datisi is town I'll vibe it out correctly so he's not a high priority sort for me right now

@skitter - is that not what happens every game?? I've seen what feels like multiple dead threads this year of you speccing a game and calling me scum

[GuiltyLion]

like i'm not out here saying GL is being overly negative, i don't think so, but i understand the pov that can think so and call it out post-by-post

I'm also coming around on a HEM townread, I think this is a very townie post and I got similar vibes from Irrel

@skitter tbh I will cop I ate an edible a while ago so it might be just that. in the meantime if you have scumreads that aren't me I'd like to hear those

[GuiltyLion]

sorry should say really it's the combo of 467 and 470 a few minutes later that vibes town

[GuiltyLion]

I guess I kind of did answer this actually. I think datisi is kind of making up reasons after the fact around his ari play, and part of that is this assumption that I MUST rvs vote dats because I do frequently.

Datisi is well aware that I don't play the opening of games the same all the time. I take different approaches based on my mood and what I think will be interesting. It's just a contrived thought process to me.

this feels... dubious

[GuiltyLion]

@skitter tbh I will cop I ate an edible

also just gotta say this is NOT any attempt at a crumb, at no point in the future am I going to claim this was a cop crumb or that this has anything to do with my role, I just used a stupid choice of word

reminds me of a game when I said someone's case was not "bulletproof"

[GuiltyLion]

I think datisi is kind of making up reasons after the fact around his ari play,

specifically I want to ask about this

do you think 308 is fake? that post felt the most likely to be genuine to me. I don't know if I could buy that scum!Tisi invented this sequence of events on the fly, he was rapidposting around then

[GuiltyLion]

I'm trying to parse that out right now with his back and forths with Ausuka and Datisi in the early 20s pages, but it's dense content and I'm genuinely not sure yet. At times it feels like VPB is just going down intellectual lines of questioning for its own sake instead of like, genuinely seeking an answer that will impact his reads - if that makes sense - but I do kinda at least see why he might have latched onto Datisi's squirrelly explanation around the ari post, which is why I wanted to get his thoughts on 308 specifically. I think as either alignment Datisi is trying some like 201 or 301 level early game shenanigans that are giving me WIFOMy mixed signals, so if VPB is just picking up on that similarly and confused I could see it coming from town. but there hasn't been a VPB post that really like rung the bell of towniness yet either

[GuiltyLion]

however I will say Ausuka is a confident townread so if they still hold a strong SR on VPB and it seems grounded, I would currently be willing to sheep/defer to that, certainly interested in hearing it out. need to fully catch up though

[GuiltyLion]

wait what do you mean in 922, like scum!Datisi did the same thing in a past game so you're suspecting him for that? It's not clear what "I also have that from datisi" means

on DV - you taking about 839? I haven't gotten to that post in context yet but I can see what you are saying, I could imagine 839 coming from scum buddying/WKing a town!Datisi. I need more from DV in general though, I kinda liked 355 as I had a similar reaction to that post reading it much later

[GuiltyLion]

ahhh

yeah I'm waffley on Datisi, I think if he's town it should eventually start showing through and if it doesn't I'm gonna be sus. I can't tell if the "I was reaction testing GL with my early game" idea is meant to pocket me or not because scum!Tisi probably thinks he's gotta project me being an important early read for him, yet I could also see him actually doing that as town. I'm looking forward to how his reads develop on you/Irrel and other slots suspecting him as I am hoping that will be useful

[GuiltyLion]

Ausuka - likely town
scamper - poe
Juice - waiting for arrival
Datisi - poe
humaneatingmonkey - town ofc
Aristeia - poe
Firebringer - pending to mid-game
Gamma Emerald - pending read on me
Nero Cain - poe
Eiralox - poe
fireisredsir - probably town
GuiltyLion - poe
VP Baltar - poe
marcistar - probably town
xofelf - likely town
skitter30 - likely town
Irrelephant11 - likely town
ydrasse - pending read on early game
Dunnstral - waiting
DeasVail - pending question on datisi townread

I think marci and xofelf should be in the poe still, skitter is a maybe for me - doesn't need to be poe tier but I'm not sold yet, Ydrasse I think I'm comfortably townreading for the first time ever maybe, when she's scum I often get the vibe that she's faking being carefree but here I actually truly believe it. I like a HEM/Ydra/Ausuka/Irrel town coalition for now, I feel best about those four overall I think. fireisred is nearly there but I'm eternally paranoid of them cause I don't have any sense of what they're capable of scum

[GuiltyLion]

also I'm kinda liking scamper a bit more now but want to be fully caught up before moving my vote - that FB wagon is tempting but I need to see to what degree FB's addressed it so far and evaluate how it's gotten here in full context

[GuiltyLion]

@HEM - I dunno if I've caught up yet on where you expressed those reads on xofelf/marci, looking at your ISO I could buy the reasoning on xofelf but need to look at whatever marci is posting in the 700s

one pattern I've noticed with Datisi is he seems to be using suspicion on him to pressure/sort marci (613), scamper, (621) and fire (685), I am wondering if this is some kind of defense gambit to preemptively scare people off wagoning him or a genuine push for reads. To me it feels more likely to be the latter, but I am definitely biased as my heart wants Datisi to be town. What do you think?

[GuiltyLion]

going from 689/690 into 695 felt way too easy

i was originally gonna ask baltar why he's voting firebringer, but after giving it a few more seconds of thought, i realized i don't like that progression, actually

I don't really get it? I don't even think that's a progression?

"datisi, i think it's sus you're asking me about my read on yourself rather than someone else" into "ohh, well it won't take me long to get a read on you i think" is kinda. idk it's weird. because the first part says i'm scummy for it, but in the second part, he both accepts my explanation as valid (at least that's what it sounds like) and doesn't give an updated read on me now that he's learned that. like i feel like that sorta "omission" is more likely to come from scum who never actually cared about my alignment and who's more interested in how i'm reading him than showing me how he's reading me - especially as the latter was what prompted our convo in the first place

obviously this is not very strong, but it is a ping and also i like wagons

kinda interested in what @baltar saw there, though

this is a Good Post

[GuiltyLion]

deas town nice let's go

y is that post townie?

the previous time i played with deas (as t/t) we mindmelded so much that i eventually got paranoid he could be pocketing me (partly thanks to FL encouraging that paranoia, but still)

and his post was pretty close to my thought process when i saw that post from ari, but i also hadn't said it in the thread. the read from her felt kinda rote/obligatory and didn't feel like it really looked deeper at trying to figure out datisi's alignment. and i hadn't really (even mentally) put words to why i felt that, but deas' post i think more or less captured it. i understand that isn't gonna do anything for anyone else but for me it results in a townread

but even beyond that, it's also just a p nuanced view of things that shows he's reading closely and thinking carefully about the posts he's reading, and imo the fact that he felt compelled to post about it before doing his main thoughts/catchup just feels like a towny kind of "this is a point that i actually care about" type thing. that on its own might merit just a slight townlean, bc he could fake that, but it was more the fact that i really vibed with the thought that made it stronger

HEM now that I'm reading it in context and paying closer attention to what DV was saying, I agree with this take. I don't think DV was projecting Datisi mindset as a means of pocket or WKing but was rather pursuing an Ari sort/read and making a novel and compelling callout. I think especially if I consider it in context of Datisi not really having a lot of thread pressure on him / seeming more comfortable as well, I wasn't really sure if there was a lot of votes/suspicion on Datisi at this stage or anything in which case this would be more convenient timing for that pop in

[GuiltyLion]

866 is good from skitter I think

I feel I have a better hold on the game now and can agree with xofelf / marci reads

I have a feeling Gamma and FB were both kinda awkward in those early 30 pages too, like surface level commentary in the middle of deeper conversation from other players that felt much more fruitful and interesting that they're not commenting on or engaging with

[GuiltyLion]

Ok sooooooooo joining this *may* have been a mistake ...
I might be able to catch up tonight but i'm not sure

I'll whiteknight anyone trying to elim you before D3 and you can just sheep Ydrasse or Ausuka until D3, there problem solved

think you mistyped that you will white knight skitter.
Lets do it

VOTE: Skitter

I'm generally not liking that FB's vote never moved on from here. At the time when first reading I didn't like the vote or the timing of it on a gut level, but I was a bit hesitant because it felt like he had just recently re-entered the thread and wasn't caught up (676), so I could imagine FB just having a laugh and trying to interact with people in real time instead of needing to look back for content and reads and a vote. But then when he was consistently present but continued not really touching on anything interesting or substantial for the next couple hundred posts, it makes this stand out more as a lazy/bad vote

Fire I can understand if you're busy but can you at least try to take your vote more seriously than this

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Firebringer

[GuiltyLion]

@Irrelephant

I wanna know your take on 600+ post onward Datisi, if your scumread is still strong there, what you think of Datisi's reasoning for his vote on Fire

[GuiltyLion]

This would be a very narrow thing to base a read of me on though. Fireisred gets away with it because of our previous game, but you seem to be, I suppose, dismissing the read on me rather than actually trying to sort me

I think you're reading something into my post that isn't there, I was giving HEM a follow up to my initial response to his question about that post in 925. You're correct I am not trying to sort you with that post, I am not trying to give or justify a townread on you there either

I don't really like the suggestion in your later post that just because I'm not actively trying to sort you means I'm not actively trying to sort in general. I had 20+ pages to catch up on last night and I was stoned, and I didn't have any major issues with anything you had posted. If HEM hadn't asked I probably wouldn't have commented on you at all. That doesn't mean sorting isn't or won't happen, give it time

[GuiltyLion]

but that whoel sequence was already "invented" at the time i made 237, this was just clarifying it. do you think 237 (specifically the ari part) is out of my scumrange?

I dunno, I don't think its out of your scumrange I guess but in the VPB post he said you were making up reasons "after the fact", and if you had already "invented" everything by 237 then none of it was made up after the fact, which I think is reflected in 308.

So maybe you ~could have~ preplanned this whole sequence to try to emulate your towngame and buddy Ari, it's not impossible, but that wasn't the charge VPB was giving that I was responding to, and I think the alternate explanation where you're town is a bit simpler with respect to those posts.

[GuiltyLion]

i feel like some of the townreads being thrown around right now are a little too free,

Which reads bug you?

This post is bad, scamper says in the next sentence that he doesn't feel like elaborating, so this makes me feel like you're rushing to post questions/content instead of reading closely

[GuiltyLion]

Firebringer (5): Ydrasse, scamper, VP Baltar, Datisi, fireisredsir

Why is fire the leading wagon rn ?
I didnt really see anything so damning in his iso, and i thought his vote on me was a joke

The fact that he's sitting on a joke vote at this stage in the game is reason enough in and of itself to vote him

[GuiltyLion]

Asuka, why Datisi over VPB? I could jump to VPB earlier over Datisi I think

Irrel I see your question on Ausuka I'll answer it when I get to PC

[GuiltyLion]

I mean relly has said a lot of stuff I agree with and has made sense and feels like he's pushing the game in a pro town direction.

Is he good enough to fool me as scum? Almost definitely! But I'm not sure how much use it is getting paranoid on d1 if I don't have a reason to do so

actually this reasoning applied to relly serves as a pretty good succinct explanation of why I'm TRing Ausuka lol. The back and forths with all of VPB, Datisi, marci, Ausuka's intent with all of their posts is extremely clear and I've been able to agree with (or at least understand) virtually every take they've given in the game. it's a holistic "complete absent of scumminess" read moreso than something I arrived at from a specific post or argument

[GuiltyLion]

It's not a good reason to vote him and it's weird to me that he jumped in to suggest that

@hem

frankly I don't think you understand me as a player at all if you genuinely think that it's weird that I would suggest that

Fire isn't using his vote to express a scumread nor steer the game towards eliminating someone he thinks is good to pressure or eliminate. To me that is functionally a cardinal sin in mafia and absolutely worth voting and pressuring him over. He may or may not be town doing that, but it absolutely merits a vote, especially early D1 when we don't have a lot of real info. And I have seen Fire actually try to play pro town in many games before so it's not like this is an RNG vote, I find it odd & off that I haven't vibed with anything he's said even once yet this game

[GuiltyLion]

I was actually just on VPB and my townlean on VPB has mostly faded at this point. Could go either way. Datisi feels like a lightning rod choice bound to pull in a lot of attention, alternatively VPB might be an interesting wagon as someone sitting closer to most people's null piles. So uh yeah, could go either way lol

ever since that VPB post I called out I'm just reflexively scumreading everything he's posting now

[GuiltyLion]

Ari why is your vote still on HEM

[GuiltyLion]

Ari why is your vote still on HEM

I haven't seen anything more interesting to do with it yet

do you have something you would like me to help you with?

you don't think wagoning either Fire or Datisi would be more interesting?

[GuiltyLion]

Guiltylion my friend and buddy we only barely crossed the 48 hours of this game being live

yeah and? why is that reason for your vote to be a joke vote? you truly don't have any inklings of suspicion/scumread on anybody?

[GuiltyLion]

Guiltylion my friend and buddy we only barely crossed the 48 hours of this game being live

also, phrasing it as "48 hours" is a choice when it's also been 40+ pages

content is not always a function of just time, otherwise marathon/online chat games wouldn't be a thing

there should be at least one thing you find voteworthy this game so far, especially since you've been around at points

[GuiltyLion]

And even the game you referenced earlier of me being so town, I am a million percent sure I wasn't off to the races in 48 hours. Because I don't have a scum read or person I want to dig in on to vote. Am i not allowed to joke vote

Mmm I just started skimming your ISO in Holiday Dance and you were more proactive about engaging with people and expressing reads in the first 48 hours, it does feel starkly different to me actually!! Different set up mechanically so can't compare your voting behavior but yah, your vibe is off here, maybe that's a function of your busy work week but it's still concerning.

Also re:VPB, why not vote him then? I'd join that wagon if it got going

[GuiltyLion]

Like you literally nailed 3 of the 4 scum by post 600 24 hours into the game so yeah I want that energy again here and you're not giving it

Obviously some town games will be better than others but you're not even trying yet and I'm asking you to try

[GuiltyLion]

No, that was to Firebringer in response to 1163

[GuiltyLion]

Are you saying FB should vote me or I should vote FB?

FB should vote you. I know he said you "dropped for [him] awhile ago" but I don't really understand what that means and it would still be a more useful and game advancing vote than his current skitter vote even if he doesn't suspect you all that much, so I'm still trying to poke at him why he's instead sitting on a joke vote and not doing anything

[GuiltyLion]

Are you saying FB should vote me or I should vote FB?

also, did you think I was unaware of the fact that you're already voting FB? because this is a nonsensical question otherwise

[GuiltyLion]

Seems like a ridiculous thing to say in either circumstance, so all i can do is ask you to clarify. Why do you need someone else to vote me first before you vote?

mmm, "ridiculous" is quite a loaded word there. Why do you think it's ridiculous?

I don't think leaving the leading wagon to jump on a vanity wagon is good play, but if there was momentum to the point where your wagon would counter and/or eclipse Fire I would then think about switching.

[GuiltyLion]

Seems like a ridiculous thing to say in either circumstance, so all i can do is ask you to clarify. Why do you need someone else to vote me first before you vote?

you also didn't answer my question. Did you think I was unaware that you were voting FB?

[GuiltyLion]

Because either you didn't see my vote or you're asking for cover to vote. It's silly either way.

If you think I scum, it's not vanity to vote me. It isn't like we are under deadline pressure.

How am I asking for cover to vote? Like what is the logic there? "If FB (the current most suspected player by vote) votes VPB, then no one will suspect me for voting after him, despite the fact that I just immediately asked FB to do that!" Do you really think that's how I would think & approach the situation as scum? Do you really think that

makes sense

??

the "vanity" is to be the only player voting you. In a Large Game, wagons are much more useful than a spread of singular votes on players. My whole philosophy to mafia play is to build consensus quickly on townreads and suspects and force people to make decisions on which of 2 or 3 competing wagons they'd support. That's how you get actual associative info and sharp game states that give more insight into what people are thinking and where their reads lie. A smorgasbord of E-9 votes doesn't create any interesting information and makes it super easy for scum to do whatever. Keeping Fire at 5+ votes, while encouraging a counterwagon that might have real momentum, is better for creating a gamestate that will generate #content

[GuiltyLion]

Sorry you find that insulting

it's not that I find it insulting at all, actually, it's that it's yet another point in the growing collection of times where you are asking incoherent questions that don't reflect much critical thought / game awareness. Like if anything, I'd say you should be the one embarrassed for asking the nonsensical question, I'm not insulted for calling it out

[GuiltyLion]

it's like half the game is reading them completely differently.

do you think any of the people who were suspecting/debating those interactions with you stand out as scummy?

[GuiltyLion]

Do you think it makes sense to say 'you vote first and I'll join you'?

Like if your whole deal is getting numerous votes on a wagon, then the logical play is to vote first and directly ask people to join. It's backwards to be like " well let's count the votes first to make sure we have enough before we do this for real 48 hours into D1".

You're acting like I'm a dumb shit here, but you're not making any sense about how you're pursuing wagons. If you scum read me, then vote and stop being a coward about it.

Make a case even. But don't tell me it really makes sense to go to someone you maybe scum read and then seek a coalition of 2 before voting.

Pedit - you're right. I'm so dumb. Good point.

no, the logical play is to

stay on the existing wagon so as not to defuse it

until people who AREN'T on that wagon coalesce elsewhere, and then evaluate which wagon I'd prefer at that point.

Here is an example from a recent game of me making the same point with HEM, so you can tell it's an earnest belief of mine. jumping off a leading wagon to vote a different scumread is bad play

here's an example of me calling out a player (who turned out to be scum) for doing that.

I'm pretty sure I could find other examples too but these was the first I recalled

It is dumb to assume that I wasn't aware you were voting the same wagon, yes! If you are town and you don't want me to call your questions dumb (and while I think it was a dumb question, that does not mean I think you are dumb), maybe take a sec to evaluate some of your assumptions ("is GL asking me to vote FB when I'm already voting him and was doing so even before GL?") before firing hot take questions so I can see that you're putting thought into why you're posting what you're posting. Cause right now I don't see that and it makes it hard to see you as town

[GuiltyLion]

i feel like i had an actually kinda good point on eiralox and got zero engagement on it

I intend to look at eiralox's prior games but I do agree with you on the diff in the specific post you referenced

I'm not ruling out a vote there, just haven't had time yet to think on it

[GuiltyLion]

i feel like i had an actually kinda good point on eiralox and got zero engagement on it

idk if that's meaningful or not

maybe it means nobody else thinks it was a good point. or maybe it means nobody is more aware than normal about pushes on eiralox bc nobody here is partnered with them. idk

also this GL vs VP thing is super uninteresting to me, maybe datisi is right

ok I've glanced through some Eiralox games and they don't seem to have any completed scum games? which is something I was kinda hoping to look at to compare as a baseline

but I do agree they seem to have more sass when suspected in recent games (here is another example I found) so yah down to sheep

VOTE: Eiralox

Fire I am willing to put a pause on you for now but I am taking you at your word that you are going to start actually doing real & useful things at some point and if you don't we are gonna have issues my man

also if you're genuine about finding stuff to talk about that does interest you, I do wanna know what your latest is on VPB - why he "dropped off" for you, esp when everything he's been posting today feels scummier and scummier to me, namely his bad questions (1020, 1091, 1191) and his trajectory from joking that he should shitfight with Nero (1125) to then saying he's less likely to do that as town (1207). like the implication that he's being useful by avoiding "unhelpful" fights feels a bit LAMISTy to me, but I'm not fully decided. what do you think

[GuiltyLion]

lmao yeah sorry, I think I'm always going to default to "Fire" being FB, but will try to remember to use FB

if I'm talking to/about you I'm using fireisred, you don't have the claim to "Fire" in my brain the way Firebringer does

[GuiltyLion]

The part I've bolded also feels like cheap shade. I provided your suspicion on Firebringer as an example as well and I still think your progression on Firebringer rings hollow, as if you're pretending to care about it more than you are (see: you telling FB that they should do more or there will be problems, as you move your vote to Eiralox)

I'm not trying to shade you, I'm trying to tell you directly that I don't like reading things like my reasoning is "hollow" or that I'm "pretending to care", because I don't see how I can meaningfully address those accusations or engage with you on them. You have either disregarded or ignored a whole wealth of other reads & opinions I've given to hone in on two you didn't like, which is additionally frustrating because the one on you was literally just me trying to give thoughts on a post prompted by HEM

and again going back to the original post, I agreed with fireisred's take, it's enough for a light town lean on you, but not so strong a town lean that I was trying to advocate for it in the thread beyond just answering HEM what I thought of that post. it doesn't mean I've sorted you as town, I just have several other players I see as higher priority to deal with right now and nothing I particularly wanted to ask or talk with you about. I don't think you've done anything scummy, but in those posts I was replying to you were talking about me instead of at me, I don't know what I can do to advance forward other than just kinda ignore your suspicion (and now) vote on me. THAT'S what I don't like.

what's missing from me here that you think you would see from me as town that would demonstrate that I "care"? does it not change anything for you re:my Fire push/vote in considering that last time I played with him he was fairly immediately solvey, obvtown, and one of the few voices of sanity in that game?

[GuiltyLion]

GL's approach to reads so far feels more surface-level than I expect GL's reads to be. In a few cases he appears to only really pick one thing out and base a read around that rather than considering the player as a whole, which I think could be a scum approach.
Example Scum mindset: Find good material -> form read
Town mindset: Consider player in question -> What alignment do I think they are and why?

The most prominent examples for GL imo are his dismissive not-scum-read of me and 953 on Firebringer.

like, assume that I'm town for a sec, what do you actually expect from me to say in reply to this to help you read me correctly?

and if you don't want me to talk to you directly, why does it feel like you've ignored 90% of my other thoughts and reads? I can understand not liking my Fire vote, I can't really grok why you care so much about my reply to HEM on you or why you have seemingly nothing to say about anything else I've said, especially if you're now voting me

[GuiltyLion]

(see: you telling FB that they should do more or there will be problems, as you move your vote to Eiralox)

also on this, FB's last post basically made it clear that he wasn't going to do anything productive in response to the wagon or me asking him to do so. That doesn't change my view of him and I'll happily jump back on if more people vote there, but it does risk stalling the game and I'm willing to sheep onto Eiralox in hopes of forming a more useful wagon there

[GuiltyLion]

actually DV how about let me ask you about this - you previously had FB as a scum suspect but not Eirolox, but also said you weren't comfortable enough yet to vote/push any of your suspects.

A) are you townreading Eirolox
B) Are you now saying by voting me that you're more confident that I am scum than you are on either of them?

[GuiltyLion]

It looks like busy work to post a full list that is just meh.

what do you think of the fact that he invited me to have a discussion with him on it where he prompted me to consider his reasons for townreading xofelf, marci

I don't think the list was meh at all I think removing a number of those slots from the POE, especially some that aren't yet consensus, is more useful than a lot of what everyone else is doing

[GuiltyLion]

Not sure where I want my vote

join the Eiralox wagon?

[GuiltyLion]

fireisredsir - lean scum

do you mind explaining this one? I'd been feeling pretty good about fireisred townread today and I wanna see if you can knock it down a few pegs like you just did with Relly

also are you looking for outside thoughts on your Irrelephant case or should we wait for him to give it a real response

[GuiltyLion]

sure, i welcome thoughts. tell me im being a conf-biased dummy if you must

I guess my main feeling is that it's a good case in that if I'm looking for a deepscum pulling the wool over my eyes, your arguments would have me looking at irrelephant, but they aren't persuasive enough to make me actually want to vote/eliminate relly first here, especially before we get through some of the slots that are a lot more conventionally disengaged/scummy. it's ultimately still not too hard for me to imagine his ISO coming from town

first wrt to the stuff I liked from him, I thought his first push on me was earnest - scum would know that I'm town here and so I don't think they'd be as likely to push a sort of meta "you feel different than I remember you" type of argument since they'd know from the start it's incorrect and I don't know if they'd be observant enough to feel any differences in that case. I also kinda liked how his vote evolved from Datisi->Ari->Datisi again, that sort of movement makes me feel like he's not trying to stick to an agenda so much as organically trying to find a vote he likes

I like your observation that his play has been all vibes-based so far, and your summary of his Datisi read made me catch a minor oddity in that he didn't like me for being too harsh/negative, but then yet also suspects Datisi for being too nice. but then I started thinking that actually feels consistent with a player who is looking at if he likes people's vibes individually and if they align with his expectations for them, rather than someone trying to enact some kind of Consistent Logical Standard in how he's approaching every player. Also I thought his Ari townread was townie (874), I don't agree with the read (I think scum!Ari could fake that) but I feel scum is less likely to reverse their projected read over something "trivial" like that, like I think scum wouldn't think that's generally worth pivoting to a townread, it just narrows a future trajectory he could go down, Ari isn't really universally townread or taking over the game either

overall I guess my tl;dr is I think you are picking up on some valid impressions (not very logically rigorous reasoning, most of his reads are 'vibes' on more active players and don't hold up to real scrutiny), but then you're assuming that means he's scum putting on a front to appear amicable and townie rather than town not trying too hard and just being authentically vibey, and I don't know if I feel compelled to prefer the former explanation over the latter. I'm definitely more wary of Irrelephant now, and I think as the game narrows in focus and we start to have real data and associatives he'll absolutely need to flesh out his reads beyond what he's given, but I don't think he'd make a good wagon here yet, esp not over slots that aren't doing jack

but we may also have slightly different play styles in that I like to weed through the lolcat slots first and then try to sort the harder reads when we have more info, I don't trust my ability to nail a scummer with deep range on D1 and the consequences of getting that wrong are worse than getting limbait wrong

[GuiltyLion]

i think his push on eiralox is icky, and thats true regardless of eiralox's alignment

and I think my thing with this is

fireisred clearly did his homework looking at past Eiralox games, and he couldn't have anticipated the reaction he got from 1176 and 1189? Like if he's scum wanting to steer his narrative towards an Eira miselim, he got lucky that Eira reacted in a way he could then later push, it's not something he could premeditate

[GuiltyLion]

fireisred or firebringer?

[GuiltyLion]

eh, I guess I'm a hypocrite and my engagement with thread is somewhat oriented around my experience in it

that's fair enough. I think mostly I want to have a sense that you're actually paying attention to my other posts and reads that you haven't been commenting on. when you say I'm 'surface-level' or 'pretending', but only zeroing in on a select few things it rubs me the wrong way. like I feel I have given at least some pretty nuanced takes and it feels like you are willfully ignoring those

[GuiltyLion]

and it felt like you ignored the context of my fire vote switch in 1243

I'm too tired to make the argument now but earlier I was thinking me moving my vote off of Fire should indicate

more

care about the game, not less

as scum there's really not much of a need to do that

but I was picking up that my vote was not actually generating useful information like I wanted and I was open to an alternative

[GuiltyLion]

I think maybe if you are town you have an idea that town!me should be really invested in pushing my top scumread or whatever

that's not really my m.o., especially on D1, I'm more interested in getting decent townreads and I'll shamelessly votehop around anyone I'm not townreading if it means a larger wagon

[GuiltyLion]

you think I'm wrong town, in which case from your perspective you shouldn't have much to worry about because surely you'll convince me that you're town with your play over time, right?

that's where my complaints are coming from though, I think, if you're neither asking me direct questions nor engaging with the totality of my posts and ISO then I don't know how to trust you're actually evaluating me fairly or in a way where this outcome has a real chance of happening

Another interesting thing is that skitter's multiple posts about you feeling off was also suspicion that you couldn't respond to/engage with and yet your complaints are about me.

I trust skitter to lock horns with me though and talk through her issues with me. she's almost the opposite from how you have been playing, if she's scumreading someone she comments on every little thing and really inserts herself

[GuiltyLion]

the switch was only suspicious because you needed to threaten firebringer in the process

well yeah, because I'm still wholly unimpressed (bordering on disappointed) with him and I still want him to actually do things I can work with.

this actually makes me feel better about you lol, I didn't realize this specifically was what your issue with that was

[GuiltyLion]

Another interesting thing is that skitter's multiple posts about you feeling off was also suspicion that you couldn't respond to/engage with

also I did engage with skitter? several times 888, 904, 908, 1107

[GuiltyLion]

It's cool, I'm feeling a bit less kerfuffled by you now and this may risk sounding like scummy bravado but I'm feeling more secure than I was earlier that this won't be a game long Issue after this lil back and forth

I'd be curious for if you have any takes on scampers case on Irrelephant. I think your TR on Eiralox is premature but I'm mostly just waiting for Eiralox to come to thread

[GuiltyLion]

ALSO this whole positioning about baltar feels like. "yes i am voting other people. baltar is scummy tho. like totally scunmmy. but im not. voting there. hehe. like i theoretically COULD but i am not but he's totally scummy heheheheheheheheh"

If you wanna vote Baltar out today then let's do it. I'll join you.

no one else is voting there currently so I'm not. You should be familiar with how I play to understand that? Why are you pushing this associative idea and yet voting neither of us? People are voting me, why not join them here?

And I don't think you understood my point, I know Baltar was joking with the original shitfight comment, it's just the "lol I should do this, oh but jk guys I wouldn't do that because that would be Anti-Town and I am Town" shtick that gives me a bad LAMIST vibe. I didn't say he seriously suggested that he should, but he IS seriously suggesting that he isn't because he's just a Townie Trying to Do Useful Pro-Town Things

[GuiltyLion]

@guiltylion, isn't one of the tells that you used to catch scum at some point like, when they say "i am suspecting x but i wanna see [thing that would make me no longer suspect x]" or something along those lines? like when they telegraph what they are looking for?

Mm I think yeah that's generally scummy, but specifically when it's like a threat of a future scumread. Not the same as saying "hey, you're not trying, please try, I can't townread you if you don't play".

Also you were in HDP. Do you not feel how different FB feels here? Are you good just chalking that entirely up to him being busy?

[GuiltyLion]

his trajectory from

joking

that he should shitfight with Nero

Datisi can you confirm you did see the word "joking" my post here?

[GuiltyLion]

Eh ok

So if you're giving FB more time, what's your vote doing just sitting there on him still. Any interest in Eiralox?

[GuiltyLion]

My thing is that I think wagoning a player like Eiralox is not useless for evaluating other players in the game

Even if they're town, then scum is in a weird spot not knowing if Eiralox will come back and suddenly start towning it up, vs continue to be a potential miselim. Getting a sense of people's willingness to vote there is interesting to me, and more interesting than just discussing reads in a general sense imo

[GuiltyLion]

Eh, I'm ISOing Irrelephant again and I still don't really feel it

[GuiltyLion]

Why do you ask? I think there's enough content here that you don't have to pick at vibe reads

Seemed like a read not based in reality.

What should I be picking at?

What does "a read not based in reality" actually mean

It means it seems like you made it up and now you are covering poo with ~vibes~

This feels like a wildly out-of-nowhere take?? Like even if you think Ausuka's wrong I'm not sure why it's so unbelievable that her wrong read would be based on vibes

dats, why didn't you withhold your ari read before she can explain what her baltar read was so you can read her better

well for one, she can still explain it. for two, i think scum-her is capable of faking that read. so i don't think it's too alignment-indicative either way.

Why bring it up if it's NAI?

wow can't believe Datisi is the planned D1 bus for once

townier than rand:

vpb

VOTE: VP Baltar
I love wagons

I was actually just on VPB and my townlean on VPB has mostly faded at this point. Could go either way. Datisi feels like a lightning rod choice bound to pull in a lot of attention, alternatively VPB might be an interesting wagon as someone sitting closer to most people's null piles. So uh yeah, could go either way lol

This back and forth progression on VPB feels more likely to be real and not a projected trajectory

@Datisi I mean kinda? Looks like he was asking if people shared his feelings about you being too nice, fire gave a dissenting opinion, and he reconsidered that what he was seeing was maybe not there. I think it's hasty perhaps, but I'm not intuitively understanding why scum is more likely to do that than town

[GuiltyLion]

i partly explained it, but it's the idea that scum sees everything their buddy does as scummy, and him including the "here baltar is joking about shitfights" point kinda feels like that tmi. because adding that doesn't actually help his later "baltar is being lamist" point, and i feel like he should've like, known that.

I think it gives context rather than makes the point

[GuiltyLion]

like specifically, he's the one who brought up the idea of a shitfight with Nero to begin with. Then when Nero was like "actually why aren't you fighting with me", his response was "cause that's what I would do if I were scum, and I'm not scum". idk if I'm effectively communicating the point, but it just feels like comments weren't meant to do anything other than imply that his play is town

[GuiltyLion]

maybe some slight GL and irrel suspicion, idk

is that dependent on Eiralox's alignment at all?

[GuiltyLion]

yeh that makes sense, thanks

what do you think you want to do with the wagon now that Eiralox replaced out? part of me finds that extra suspicious and wants to double down on it, but at the same time it feels like it might start now contributing to a stale gamestate and I don't think I wanna join the Irrelephant one

[GuiltyLion]

the replace out doesn't feel AI to me and not sure why it would be

I think replace outs are slightly +scum in general and I could see someone who doesn't care playing mafia alignment just deciding to nope out at this point, especially if they feel they're hindering their team

can also come from town obviously but it's certainly not something that makes me think more likely town

[GuiltyLion]

have you considered starting a new wagon

yes, that is what I am doing

ill think about who else should be wagoned

how about this
VOTE: VPB

I'd go for a marci wagon at this point too

[GuiltyLion]

I'm pages behind, but glad this is the first question I see checking in.

fight me

[GuiltyLion]

GL sorry if I missed something but do you see Marci's response to me as likely to come from scum here?

I want to townread it, because I don't want to assume scum!marci is willing to be that mean to deflect pressure, but I hate that she's since completely disappeared since

if it weren't for that reaction I'd be pretty interested in pushing her, instead I'm just like... loosely interested. I'm kinda hurting for enough scumreads

[GuiltyLion]

lol fireisred were you thinking she was scummier here than in Turing test? cause that's what I was thinking lol

[GuiltyLion]

i think the inclination to differentiate your game now makes me lean town IMO i doubt you'll have a hard time faking your town game

@red
@gl

what do you think about this assessment you guys were part of that game

right, I agree with this, it makes me feel better about Ari

my main sense being in both games simultaneous was that Ari in TT was far more proactive and prolific, like several points in that game she came in with really thoughtful & insightful cases or gamestate reads and didn't seem to be at all reticent to share them at any point, especially at critical moments where she could directly shape the game. with hindsight now that was all to serve a scum agenda but her play here felt a lot more passive so far, mostly like she's primarily sitting back and feeling out what people are doing and not taking a lot of care to push particular reads she wants to push.

previously I was kind of suspecting if she were scum here she didn't have enough data/info to start really manipulating and using her voice to achieve results she wanted, but now knowing she was scum in the other game, it kinda makes me think a likely explanation is that she's town here and genuinely uncertain and/or not yet invested enough in her reads to step up and pressure or corral people

[GuiltyLion]

I've already read the first couple of pages, ego so I can get back to this later.

I read the first 15ish pages last night when I requested the slot and a couple of folks are on my radar

this might be a weird question but why did you say you read a couple of pages if you had actually read 15ish? 15 is a lot more than a couple, and if your vote on Datisi was based on 15 pages rather than ~2, that seems like an important thing to make clear

also, who else is on your radar? Be specific because from where I'm sitting "a couple of folks" might mean over half the game

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: conmanmick

I'm not opposed to a Gamma wagon but I kinda thought defending marci like he did (193, 329) was possibly townie from him. interested to hear Relly's Reasoning^TM

[GuiltyLion]

Dannflor replaces Eiralox.

Hi Dann! sorry you had to be scum this game

[GuiltyLion]

im not afk wtf lions

you're still not voting anybody and I can't remember any of your reads or opinions without pulling you up in ISO

[GuiltyLion]

i think gamma is town btw

what's that based on, how much have you read

[GuiltyLion]

It's not my native language, "couple" meaning more than one but comparatively few to the overall amount. I feel like "couple" being 15 or so is appropriate when referring to, say, 60 odd pages on a forum, vs. Being 3-5 people out of 20 odd.

thanks, I apologize for my smol bit of sass, should have considered it might just be a language trip up and this makes sense to me

VOTE: Dannfloor
back to here

[GuiltyLion]

although CMM I do want to know who those other people are still

[GuiltyLion]

I expected Guilty Lion to want to engage with me more. It felt like he waited an obligatory amount of time to see what the vibes would be and then moved back to my wagon. And I sort of expect GL to be the type of player who likes to sort every player for himself

frankly you kinda helped out a lot by making some terrifically bad posts about Frogster that I disliked everything about

I probably could have commented more on them but I'm still at work

[GuiltyLion]

I don't think coming in as a replacement and automatically town reading all (or almost all) the active slots immediately shows you are critically thinking about the game at all

I think it shows you want to blend in with the crowd and survive

plus the survey as a substitute for content is icky

specifically this

-the survey point is wholly NAI
-I think scum are more likely to be worried about how it'd look to immediately claim to townread all the active slots. like if you're making up reads I think you're going to want to have some kind of scumread to show you're getting involved and sorting. no idea why you jump to assuming ulterior motives of "blending" and "surviving", Frogster's not even under any real pressure of death at the moment

[GuiltyLion]

they were like, sorry my brain is overloaded and dipped. they didn't try and were perfectly content about that. they were a townie who got overwhelmed by the volume of the game.

I think Fireisred pushing there makes some sense because they were looking for something specific but I'm skeptical about genuine scum reads on the slot. Scum usually doesn't behave like that and I'd challenge people to find instances of scum behaving like that.

and this first sentence I've quoted feels really forced

and the second doesn't make sense to me because if you think Fireisred had good intentions and raised a good point about a specific meta difference between Eira's prior town games and their play here, why are you suspicious of people for agreeing with that finding

[GuiltyLion]

We just played in a game together where I made very similar posts at the start of the game

I scumread you at the start of TT, did I not? which posts are you talking about and why are they similar to here

[GuiltyLion]

sorry if I'm being annoying

you've already started walking back your Frogster read which to me means like you shouldn't be ?? at me disliking & questioning it

maybe just when you come back and are feeling calm tell me how you feel about VPB and FB

[GuiltyLion]

@Dann if it'd help to offer a specific launching point, I wanna know if you have a gut take response to 1565

but if you wanna take your time and give a read on Firebringer considering more context, that's fine too

[GuiltyLion]

I think your push on FB is wrong but useful and I like your play.

I don't particularly think FB is town but I can wait for him to kick into gear for now and he's done enough that I am not auto scumreading so I don't want to vote there right now.

if you're not sure about FB's alignment, why do you think my push is "wrong"?

what has he done that makes him above auto scumreading? IMO, maybe you could argue/think that he hasn't done anything

actively scummy

, but I don't see anything he's done that's felt townie at all

[GuiltyLion]

Why it feel like ur trying to hide behind dats this game?

can you explain why you have this impression

I don't think I've really been very in sync with Datisi, and I also think I've done my own stuff that Datisi hasn't agreed with or hasn't been pushing himself

so, I don't really get this comment

[GuiltyLion]

quick readslist

town

: {ausuka, nero, obscure, scamper, ydrasse, frogster, fireisred, gamma}

feels town, but I wouldn't bet the game on it, and maybe (probably?) a deepwolf here that i don't trust myself to find yet

: {hem, irrel, ari, datisi}

i'm not personally really townreading but a number of my townreads are and I'm currently ok with that

: {dv, marci, xofelf}

would yeet

: {dann, conman, firebringer, vpb}

I'm not sure yet what to make of the fact that it seems dann/cmm are currently the two dueling wagons when ultimately I'm fine with a flip in either, my preference is for dann currently as it's a little bit easier for me to imagine having a misread on CMM

I don't really understand why anyone would be confident in either a VPB or FB townread, those feel like the slightly less consensus-y scumreads I have

I think fireisred is pretty town, especially so if Dann is red. I'm not really grokking scumreads there

[GuiltyLion]

Firebringer is here to bail out Gamma or is just oblivious?

I am going to word this nicely.
But was this post made with the intention of trying to annoy me or just made without thinking?
I don't know.

I am going to calm down now because this post shouldn't have bugged me as much as it should and you probably didn't intend it to.

Datisi why do you think this is a townie post? kinda just feels like run of the mill AtE to me, I'm not connecting with why town!FB would be reactive to that, especially if he has any prior experience with Frogster? like I feel like as town Fire would know this idea is just kind of ridiculous, why is he bugged by it instead? and the last sentence just kinda vibes a little pacifist / telling-emotions-instead-of-showing-them to me

I don't think it's a super scummy post, I can imagine it from town, it's just kinda NAI to me overall, but I'm curious why it pings town to you

[GuiltyLion]

FB #1782 "useful" in that it drew out your contribution beyond the early "lolol I rolled scum" and got you engaged. I think then it tunnelled at needless length thus why I said I think it's wrong move, but that doesn't mean it wasn't worth the end result. You had some solid posts resulting from that, which made me feel good about your slot.

do people think this is S-S or S-T? I read it as S-S but that's probably in part because I want to be right

[GuiltyLion]

i think this could be following the same trajectory as turing test here where i kinda lowkey scumread GL for most of d1 and then it gets to eod and he summarizes his reads and oops turns out we agree on almost everything maybe he's just town

can you give me like the top liner for why you're voting CMM instead of Dann? I'm considering switching but kinda want to see what Dann does on return

[GuiltyLion]

GuiltyLion's attack on Mick of "couple" vs 15 is

why did you call this post an "attack"?

I've already read the first couple of pages, ego so I can get back to this later.

I read the first 15ish pages last night when I requested the slot and a couple of folks are on my radar

this might be a weird question but why did you say you read a couple of pages if you had actually read 15ish? 15 is a lot more than a couple, and if your vote on Datisi was based on 15 pages rather than ~2, that seems like an important thing to make clear

also, who else is on your radar? Be specific because from where I'm sitting "a couple of folks" might mean over half the game

I made a bit of a snarky joke at the end but otherwise I think this post is very much a "can you explain what you meant" question more than an 'attack', so your word choice is off to me.

do you agree that it was at least unclear and worth clarifying how much CMM had read when he gave a read/vote on Datisi?

further, what is this thought doing in the middle of a read (& vote) on conman anyway? like do you think I'm scum making up a bad reason to suspect/bus my buddy?

[GuiltyLion]

why did you call this post an "attack"?

Because it read like you shading him over something very pedantic. If that wasn't your goal, I have no idea why you even posted it.

meh, I disagree that it's pedantic, but w/e

further, what is this thought doing in the middle of a read (& vote) on conman anyway? like do you think I'm scum making up a bad reason to suspect/bus my buddy?

I was reading his ISO, and I had to click back to see what he was responding to. Then I saw your post.

this though, keep going. You're voting and presumably scumreading conman. You also say you don't like me shading him. So, to ask again - are you saying you think I'm just awkwardly distancing a buddy there? It's not clear to me how your read on me relates to your read on conman

[GuiltyLion]

I'd rather lim GL. There is just something very argumentative about him this game that bugs me. Felt like his whole interaction with me earlier game was weird, and I've seen a few comments when I've been skimming that feel more like shade than scumhunting. He's just got a whole "path of least resistance" vibe.

sorry for just continuing to be obtuse and pedantic I suppose, but I don't get how you can accuse me of both being argumentative and also "path of least resistance"

I also can't help but feel this is a convenient excuse to jump off of conman

[GuiltyLion]

guilty why am i not locktown yet

would it be wise for me to locktown you on D1 without any flips? you're passing up a good opportunity to foster Datisi paranoia here

[GuiltyLion]

hmm upon a little bit more reflection I think I might rescind my "VPB hopping off conman" wagon point

I think conman red flip actually sorta looks good for VPB here? namely in that I don't think he went into this latest conversation intending to vote me until I started questioning him

it's reactive but doesn't feel agenda-driven in a time where I would expect scum!VPB with scum!conman and/or scum!Dann to be playing to an agenda, like I think if his goal was to try to push me as a CW he would be more likely to just start with that instead of using my most recent posts as an excuse

[GuiltyLion]

Arguing is the easiest thing in the world if it has no point and you're not trying to find out people's alignments.

[GuiltyLion]

yea I think I'm currently content to stay on Dann

[GuiltyLion]

This is a very, talk shit get limmed post.

Can you explain what this means? I see town express that kind of read and sentiment all the time. It's extremely natural for a townie to be looking for people who seem like they know they'll flip town and are potentially maneuvering around that.

[GuiltyLion]

hi all, just read up but I have friends coming over shortly and I don't have as much time as I'd like to post about things in depth. I might be able to come back to this game tonight once they leave but tbh not sure how late that will be / how tired I will be.

I have a lot of thoughts/replies to VPB's case (no surprises there) but want to collect my thoughts and post when I can properly do them justice

I don't think Gamma is scummy at all - this feels fairly in line with her towngame and I think with how she's treated marci specifically (initially slightly protective of her -> evolving into disliking/suspecting her) feels more likely to be a town progression given my understanding of their friendship

I still don't have a reason to TR marci and kinda feels like she's intentionally trying to rile up Gamma here

what I liked about CMM is his aggressiveness/hostility towards slots voting him. like he doesn't seem afraid at all to pick fights, could certainly be scum bravado but my gut reaction feels it's authentic townie

still pleased with a Dann vote, I know he got annoyed with being accused of being surface level but I still kinda feel all of his analysis of the game has felt a bit forced/unnatural and not fitting a more nuanced vibe I've felt from him in our past town games together

[GuiltyLion]

why are you so on edge and taking everything as a hate on you@??!?!

on this specifically, do you really think this is out of character for Gamma? like I have experienced Gamma Taking Things Personally and Being On Edge when town before, it strikes me as a lot more personality indicative than alignment inidicative and given that you've hydra'd with Gamma several times before I'm struggling to see a good faith interpretation for this question

[GuiltyLion]

Spoiler: examples of ConMan aggression

Vote me then.
This is forum Mafia, the whole thing is a notepad.
What's cagey about it?

I'm not up to date yet but look at the naked votes and the bullshit "X, tell me why I should vote for Y?" Followed by immediate "ok!" Votes tomorrow, and the egos who think they're beyond being elimmed

I can't remember who said about only having mentioned three townreads but like
There's twenty people or whatever here
I'm not gonna go around like the town toothfairy and dole out wee gold stars for everyone
If I haven't mentioned them then I haven't got to them, I'll look if I'm asked or I get there

Pedit yeah maybe it wasn't a nice way to say it but all that shit you have to say about your fantastic leading games from the back of your own wagon just rubs me the wrong way

And like, it's a large game, you can afford to lose me as town if it makes catching scum easier, so idk what vibe you want to give off with that "talk shit get limmed" stuff, I'm not exactly shaking in my boots

wrt you other question - it's fairly recent given his prior two bouts of posting, I suggested I wasn't interested in voting him anymore in 2191 in response to scamper's 2190

[GuiltyLion]

that's quite an underwhelming response to my question

[GuiltyLion]

@marci

do you really think this is out of character for Gamma?

can you just give me a thought on why this strikes you as off because I do not share that impression and you know Gamma better than I do

[GuiltyLion]

VPB, what were your thoughts on 2395?

[GuiltyLion]

pog

[GuiltyLion]

last thoughts before thread lock - I kinda like VPB's reply to me there? assuming Con is scum, I'm prob still SRing Fire and Dan, but VPB might be town and I might be snowed by a scum elsewhere

[GuiltyLion]

Datisi kinda stole my thunder by saying a few points that I wanted to say in his own defense of me

[GuiltyLion]

if only I could

[GuiltyLion]

last thoughts before thread lock - I kinda like VPB's reply to me there? assuming Con is scum, I'm prob still SRing Fire and Dan, but VPB might be town and I might be snowed by a scum elsewhere

this is not the reaction i had, would be interested in more explanation of why you like it

I guess I am thinking scum!VPB knowing scum!CMM would be doing a bit more agenda/manuevering off this CMM flip

whereas I made the point in 2173 that it felt like his first jump from CMM->GL was directly in response to me fighting with him, rather than something he premeditated or planned

and then again here I thought he may have been trying to set me up to look bad on CMM by asking me about why I was finding him town, but then he kinda just dropped it and didn't express much explicit suspicion in 2481.

[GuiltyLion]

@guiltylion, what do you think about marci compared w HDP? i feel like we've been comparing firebringer a lot to it, but we didn't even mention marci haha

if you're still around

I need to reread her ISO in HDP as I don't remember the impression I had from her very strongly other than she had me townreading her on vibes for a lot of D1

her vibe is definitely more off-putting to me in this game, so maybe that's town, but I need to reread and refresh myself on HDP

[GuiltyLion]

mm I think he might be town after that post tbh

if he's scum trolling it gives townies opportunities to potentially towntell, not good play

[GuiltyLion]

I haven't read the Giant Post yet I just immediately skipped to what you said about me and I want to clarify something

God guiltylions push on conman is SO bad. Hes scum because he’s aggressive now? What?

I don't think you understood my posts, which posts is this referring to? CMM's aggression gave me town pings and I said I didn't want to vote him, I wanted to stay on Dann, and that my gut was CMM was town. I briefly thought he may be scum after the self-hammer, but the main thing I had was CMM/VPB unaligned.

[GuiltyLion]

tbh my reads haven't really changed with these flips

would wagon either of Dann or Fire-now-Smart

wanna digest TSQ's post and reread any Relly/VPB interactions before I know how I feel about a vote there

[GuiltyLion]

Spoiler: Irrel trajectory on VPB

Why do you ask? I think there's enough content here that you don't have to pick at vibe reads

Seemed like a read not based in reality.

What should I be picking at?

What does "a read not based in reality" actually mean

It means it seems like you made it up and now you are covering poo with ~vibes~

This feels like a wildly out-of-nowhere take?? Like even if you think Ausuka's wrong I'm not sure why it's so unbelievable that her wrong read would be based on vibes

dats, why didn't you withhold your ari read before she can explain what her baltar read was so you can read her better

well for one, she can still explain it. for two, i think scum-her is capable of faking that read. so i don't think it's too alignment-indicative either way.

Why bring it up if it's NAI?

wow can't believe Datisi is the planned D1 bus for once

townier than rand:

vpb

VOTE: VP Baltar
I love wagons

I was actually just on VPB and my townlean on VPB has mostly faded at this point. Could go either way. Datisi feels like a lightning rod choice bound to pull in a lot of attention, alternatively VPB might be an interesting wagon as someone sitting closer to most people's null piles. So uh yeah, could go either way lol

This back and forth progression on VPB feels more likely to be real and not a projected trajectory

hmmm

usually I don't see scum fake reversals like 403 to 652

however the fact that VPB flipped maf weakens that somewhat as it could be a thing specifically to pretend to be uninformed

I genuinely don't know if I feel strongly about this being T-S or S-S, would love to hear others opinions

[GuiltyLion]

vig baltar

Dann is this a vig soft

if you're going to soft vig be explicit so real vig knows to shoot you

thanks

[GuiltyLion]

I want to sleep on it but Shea feels townie to me

VOTE: Somethiing_Smart

let's get out this obvscum

[GuiltyLion]

@Dann if it'd help to offer a specific launching point, I wanna know if you have a gut take response to 1565

but if you wanna take your time and give a read on Firebringer considering more context, that's fine too

Dann diid you ever address this

I was being coy but I'll just assert now that 1565 strikes me as a fairly scummy post from FB

[GuiltyLion]

I have historically never known how to read Firebringer and generally have been bad at attempting

The only thing that leapt out to me from him was his reaction to Datisi, where he reflexively prodded datisi when he was prodded

I thought that interaction was mildly townie from both slots

I guess there was this as a response

idk I thought that reflexive prod was weird in how quickly it turned into a TR, as Datisi himself pointed out. I would expect town to be a bit more guarded

[GuiltyLion]

why not? he didn't go anywhere with it and didn't vote him. His vote sat on skitter the entirety of D1

[GuiltyLion]

hello friends

I am going to commence reading up, but I am also Here if anyone wants Real Time Interactions

[GuiltyLion]

Fire struck me as slightly towny based off his interactions with Datisi, albeit I'm historically terrible at reading him

I don't find the post your pointing at to be scummy, what is your logic there

sorry for resurrecting a dead thread but felt the need to respond to this

my feeling about 1565 is that "I could be townread if I were scum and had time to play" is generally not helpful self defense - at best all he's saying is "this reason to scumread me is invalid", he's not offering any reason as to why we should see him as town here and he's also not addressing a possibility that he could be busy

and

scum.

Like the argument feels self-defeating to me in a way, because if he believes it's "easy" to project townvibes, it raises the question of why hasn't he done that as either alignment. If it's not "easy" and requires work (work that he's too busy for), then saying "fb hasn't been townie" is an entirely fair assessment of his play and he should understand that.

frankly I'm not sure what to make of your reply, I was expecting likely a token effort to analyze it if you were scum.

[GuiltyLion]

Interested to know your read on DV!

hi guiltylion

i was hoping to jam w you about your s_s read when you get the chance (and a bunch of other reads too, i'm lowkey lost again lols)

I will get to these as I catch up, I will try not to get similarly lost

my current thought on DV though - I didn't like his vote on the CMM wagon, but I also don't know if DV/VPB decide to tag team the tail end of the CMM wagon like they did, there wasn't really a need to? especially if Dann is town

[GuiltyLion]

Whew that was long. Finally I'm going to look at his Datisi interactions more holistically. I think the fact VPB and Datisi had their fallout after Aristeia called them out as potentially partners, Aristeia still calling them partners towards the end of the day, Aristeia dying and Datisi talking about 'oh i would never interact with vpb like that as scum' even though Aristeia is the person who I know reads Datisi best is super scummy imo. I think his push on Datisi just totally fizzles out in a way I don't like - he thinks scamper is scum over Datisi later despite like never really actually pushing scamper. None of it feels natural to me.

Looking at the other side of things - I think 1939 has a read on VPB which is like... Okay, I guess it COULD come from town datisi, but pivoting into a 'too scummy to be scum' read on vp baltar is SO convenient. Scum had no idea VPB was going to die, so I could see Datisi wanting to be easily able to take VPB out of his limelight and focus on slots like CMM and town in Relly/Dann/Gamma all of which would be fairly easy people for Dats to eliminate since he's charismatic and all of them were pretty common pushes yesterday iirc.

the whole post I quoted this from is some interesting stuff

I think there's definitely a world where Datisi/VPB are aligned and behaved exactly as you called out, but I am tempted to not put so much stock into the Ari NK just yet. I think Ari is probably a scary player to most people in the PL in general and usually a high priority kill - while also not currently so townread as to be protected - just feels like a kill that would benefit most teams, Datisi or no Datisi.

The second paragraph here - my issue is I can definitely imagine town!Datisi having this reaction/engagement with scum!VPB. I was having similar D1 thoughts of "he feels so scummy to me, but I just played with scum!him and wasn't as suspicious of him there, maybe it's just his personality" so I can empathize a lot with 1939 and 2869. I actually think what you're calling out about Scamper interactions feels a lot worse than Datisi interactions. Like I happened to reread my 1316 a few min ago for some reason while I was backtracking some of these referenced posts and it struck me how much scamper was assuming malicious intent on Relly's part when writing that case and pushing that scumread.

I'm also not sure I agree with your take that VPB/FB come off unaligned from VPB pushing FB given that VPB eventually evolved away from pushing that, coinciding with me pushing FB a lot of D1

[GuiltyLion]

im a bit xonfused why u didnt come to the conclusion of scamper scum? its what ur post made me think og so i wanna know why datisi over them.

hmmm...

if scamper is red, is this TMI/distancing/agenda?

I like the perceptiveness of marci picking up the same thing I did how scamper comes off worse than Datisi in Ausuka's analysis - but I guess I don't vibe with how marci is questioning Ausuka on it instead of asserting her own opinions?

I don't think I have a Formed Take on this but want it in my ISO for future rereading

[GuiltyLion]

i dislike it on principle tho i think guiltylion isn’t a woofer atm

also my impression of them is that they’d plan out at least what to go after and not something that easy to pick apart

yo if someone posts something I think could potentially be interpreted as a soft of a known role that exists, I think it's correct to call them out. if they're scum it forces them to commit to the claim one way or the other. if they're town and genuinely softing, it's not like scum didn't see it. resolving the ambiguity is pro-town imo, scum are more informed about Dann's alignment so ambiguity over whether he's softing only favors them

if anything you should be disliking Dann for saying he wasn't going to be limmed today, then immediately afterwards quoting a post about vigging Baltar without saying anything about it

[GuiltyLion]

i'm pausing on this a little. i wonder if it's possibly indicative of a scum in GL and Ausuka? i don't think Ausuka is mafia, so it could be i'm wrong on my read on lion... i feel weird getting mafia reads just from reading one dead mafia, i'd rather figure things out reading their posts, but it does make me want to scrutinize in this direction more.

obscure, I find it a little odd you chose to comment on 2327 rather than the entirety of several back and forths I had with VPB

can you give a summary of your overall impression of my interactions with VPB and how you read me as a result? if you've already done this since this post then I'll get to it so you can disregard if that's the case

[GuiltyLion]

Datisi's 3007 on town-dann is a good post imo

I didn't remember quite how weak the CMM wagon was at that time, I do think we should keep in mind that Dann wagon had definitely stalled by this point in the game, but overall it does feel like VPB's play is more likely trying to keep three different viable options alive rather than play with an agenda. at the time I felt this was CMM/VPB unaligned but I think it's decent evidence for Dann/VPB unaligned too. it's enough to currently make me want to at least look elsewhere for today

[GuiltyLion]

So I was a bit surprised by her death, and specifically I think she has knowledge of Datisi's meta that no one else does - so I do think it's scum indicative that after she dies Datisi starts talking about how he's never scum with VPB on self meta even though she clearly didn't agree with that analysis.

I'm not sure I follow this - how are you inferring that Ari didn't agree with that analysis when it was given after Ari died? Like I get Ari had VPB/Datisi both scum, but this feels a little unfair to then say Ari wouldn't necessarily agree with what Datisi says in his defense

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not saying Ari is infallible or a god or whatever. I'm saying specifically on Datisi I have reasons to think she is trustworthy and when she dies on night 1 and datisi comes out with self meta opposite to what she said, of course I'm going to be suspicious of that. I don't think that's unfair at all.

sorry, I do think it's fair to be suspicious, it was just the "Ari clearly disagreed with that analysis" that felt a bit like an assumption because the analysis didn't exist when Ari gave her reads.

I also think there's a slight extra element of Datisi's self-meta point about their interactions that you glossed over which is that Datisi:

a) called Baltar out on not having a firm read on him (1939)
b) is arguing that he would have told Baltar not to do that if they were scum together

it's not just about activity imo

[GuiltyLion]

oh i forgot about that post

i kinda disagree just bc it felt like vp's isoing of conman and dann felt really kinda forced and awkward, in a way that it felt like he thought he needed to have an opinion on them in case they flipped

and vp town loves making dueling wagons on d1 of a large. vp scum loves to imitate vp town. but vp scum gets weird and awkward and dodgy when one of the people that he would normally be pushing for as one of the dueling wagons is actually scum (see ktane). vp scum also does not always vote the counter (again, see ktane, for a while it was me (town) vs mistyx (scum) as the leading wagons and he was pushing elsewhere)

and it kinda feels to me like he's actually hesitant to want to push for dueling wagons while also hard pushing the town counter to scum bc then he is basically creating a gamestate where he ends up looking suspicious off it

i don't think he would have had any issue pushing for dann/conman as the two leading wagons and playing the town leader and forcing everyone to give a stance on them if they were t/t

and i think that awkwardness could come from dann scum

mmmmm

I guess I see this

my main thing is it felt like VPB only decided to vote me

after

I started bothering him, prior to that he was seemingly content to sit on CMM

but you've convinced me it's still more possible to have Dann scum than I was thinking

[GuiltyLion]

One other thought on Datisi - I think if he were scum with VPB, he would have set himself up with an angle to push me today over thinking VPB and I were doing distance theater yesterday. But so far he just hasn't? Maybe he knows I'd react strongly to that here but idk, ehy fake that paranoia d1 and then not project it at all on d2

[GuiltyLion]

scum-me wouldn't know that vpb was about to eat shit on n1

and even then, what makes you think that i'd want to bank in that paranoia immediately on d2?

I don't think that first point matters? or at least I'm not seeing why you brought it up?

the second question - if you don't bank it now you kinda can't later, right. like if you want to push me in a few days or something and you're like "I

knew

they were distancing D1!!" the natural question would be why that paranoia/thought seemed to evaporate until it became convenient for you to use it in a later push on me.

[GuiltyLion]

I am still reading up, but I might be inclined to sheep Nero on his point about Relly's read on skitter. I had Shea feeling townie in his initial real time start of d2 vibes, but will need to reread and I don't think any of it felt unfakeable. I just got to 3048 and that post is badvibes

[GuiltyLion]

the first point is a response to you saying i was setting up an angle to push on you via paranoiaing vpb/gl

and also yes i absolutely can, it would actually make much more sense for scum-me to be hitting a few lhf here and then later go on "uh oh guys i think i might have been right on d1 ahaha" because like. idk it's overall not a very strong point, so as town i'm not gonna go full paranoia mode over it immediately, and as scum it doesn't benefit me to go full paranoia mode over it (unless i'm planning some sorta uber powerwolf game which like no thanks)

I'm still not following - why does setting up the angle depend on knowing VPB was going to die? I'm saying the angle would be set up for whenever VPB flipped, just because he flipped earlier than scum!you would have expected doesn't mean the trajectory doesn't work anymore

I kinda disagree on the last point but not sure if it's worth diving into. I feel that would look fake assuming you hadn't mentioned the thought at all in the interim time between D1 and Dwhenever

[GuiltyLion]

@Shea can you summarize why you think Gamma wasn't interested in solving EOD1? I see a few posts from her I think demonstrate real interest:

What are the cases for GL/relly?
I don’t think I care for the “Eiralox is RWSTFO scum” case as it’s presented rn

asking for cases on lead wagons

VOTE: conmanmick
I may change this later but that wall of responses feels a bit salty-scum like

voting lead wagon giving reasoning

I also think around the time D1 was wrapping up she was attempting to sort / understand marci and I don't fault her at all for probing there, I think that makes a lot of sense given their friendship and what marci was posting at the time

[GuiltyLion]

also @Ausuka, talking about Ari reads and being NK'd, what do you make of everything she said about fire in 1986?

[GuiltyLion]

And also I just decided I'd like to vote you to maybe maybe "life allow" a little more quickly.

VOTE: DeasVail

I’m pretty busy at the moment dude. This is me sneaking in some posts on a lunch break so I don’t think you’re going to get much more out of me right now.

Then die?

This seems weirdly aggressive.

Also, engaging with people is a way to help me get engaged in the game as well. Also fwiw, the interaction has helped me solidify my townread you. My goals are not always going to be totally clear. Anyway that’s it from me. Be back later

DV - why did this interaction make you townread Shea

I don't really vibe with Shea's push on you at all here, especially I think 3294 suggesting that your 3284 and 3286 is an "attack" felt like embellishment of what you did

[GuiltyLion]

@deas, is there a reason why you voted frogster out of the 4 people in your poe? because i feel like literally all three of others are more viable rn

also DV can you answer this

can I get you on Smart instead

I think Frogster is town

[GuiltyLion]

ok, I've caught up to where I first entered today

Interested to know your read on DV!

I liked his responses/behavior in his back and forth with Shea up until he was like "I have you as town for this" which is ??? since it felt like Shea was questioning/arguing with him in bad faith to me. I want an answer on how that made Shea top town, I still don't see it from 3333.

that said, I don't vibe with the TSQ top townread or the Frogster vote which is confusing and somewhat worrying, but the rest of his reads seem genuine. I liked his call out of obscure for the EOD1 posting potentially being faking uninformed.

I'll flesh out my current overall reads in a bit but I have him generally as a weaker townread - certainly wouldn't bet the game on town, but not worth pushing today, would rather hunt elsewhere and revisit with more flips.

hi guiltylion

i was hoping to jam w you about your s_s read when you get the chance (and a bunch of other reads too, i'm lowkey lost again lols)

I was kinda hoping to see contributions from S_S throughout the pages I caught up on and nothing struck me as useful or interesting, which is not out of character for S_S unfortunately but does nothing to assuage my issues with FB vibe being off

I also kinda feel like, if he's a miselim, he's not really being pushed by scum right now? it's bad to form a read on him based on a vague gamestate sense obviously but it certainly isn't giving me any "this wagon is a mistake" vibes either.

[GuiltyLion]

do you have any updated thoughts on marci

I was conflicted about her push on me in 3215, I hate the "this is literally PR hunting" comment since I think accusations of PR hunting are classically easy for scum to latch onto and riff on, but at the same time I kinda liked her suspicion of me trying to "prove towniness" in 2554 - she's missing the context of me addressing Factual Inaccuracies in Shea's read on me but that particular thought seems like genuine townie suspicion to me

I think you're right that she's strangely avoidant to giving a read on you but I don't really find that scummy from her, just frustrating

I'd yeet her currently because I think if she's town she's miselim bait and not a slot I'd feel comfortable living through ELO, buuuut I don't think I actually feel quite as suspicious of her as I did D1

[GuiltyLion]

my updated reads are around here:

town: {ausuka, nero, scamper, HEM, datisi, frogster, ydrasse, gamma}
town enough: {DV, fireisred}
not my preference to lim but would settle on: {TSQ, marci, xofelf}
would yeet with no mercy: {obscure, Dann, S_S}

happy to elaborate in detail on any of these specifically. some I want to comment on:

fireisred... still feels generally townie to me and demonstrates a lot of nuanced thought, but I have Not Insignificant Paranoia that if there's a deepwolf that killed Ari it'd be him

TSQ I get semi frequent pings of townie righteousness but I don't think it's really out of a capable scum range and I do think there are enough ?? points in both Relly's Reads and Shea's Reads that make them worthy of some suspicion. Namely I don't really vibe with Shea's confidence in their Gamma push. However the fact that I'm getting mixed signals makes me afraid of this lim as it feels like if it's a miselim it's the easiest one for scum to get.

marci just feels like she isn't playing out of spite. I think actually I like her push on me more than anything else, and that's because it's the only thing that felt like a Genuine Scumread. xofelf is still just kinda there and still has a lot of people townreadng them which I'm fine enough with.

obscure dropped the most in my reads on catching up and rereading today - I don't think my reasons for TRing him were any good on reflection, and I think there's a fair case to be made he's been hiding his level of experience / playing up being behind or detached from the game, especially I agree with DV the EOD posts are kinda bad knowing CMM greenflip. I also don't see any substantial comment on VPB D1 at all whatsoever, despite even being prompted by Frog and acknowledged in 2106. I also think his attempt to throw shade on Ausuka and me in 2978 was pretty skeevy.

Dann I prob need to again re-ISO and re-evaluate to solidify a good read. I waffle on whether VPB's avoiding that wagon was indicative, I can see it either way. I still feel like I'm craving a Dann post that really makes me go "wow, this is town!" the way I've seen from him in the past. It may be a function of him replacing into a lurk slot late D1 that's causing that, but idk, I also don't know if I really have a good picture of where his head is at, and if marci is town (and especially if Smart is scum) his vote there is preeetttyyy bad

[GuiltyLion]

I think with Frogster there is risk of dismissing him as town because he’s weird (which is much like what happened in my previous game with him)

the thing with Frog is I find his reads to be genuine and largely aligning with mine so I don't really see what reason there is to be suspicious of him and don't really remember any good ones being presented

[GuiltyLion]

Oh the main reason for me is that I don’t think there’s anything that town about him.

this probably lands a bit differently since you have Dann as town but I liked that he came in hot scumreading Dann & VPB on D1. going off memory so may be wrong but I feel he had Smart as POE scum early too, so for me it's just that he's pressuring and scumreading pretty much all the slots I think are best for town to be pressuring and scumreading currently

[GuiltyLion]

lions who do i scumread

who should i iso

zzz

I don't get why you have Smart as town

you've been scum with him before, do you see any differences in his play here from HDP

[GuiltyLion]

also I'm rereading VPB's ISO for skitter/obscure comments and I don't see anything that makes me think unaligned

in fact it would be quite convenient (and funny) if all of FB/skitter/VPB were scum doing some good ole scum theater when FB voted skitter for a joke and VPB uses it to distance with both FB and skitter over it. like this:

@vpb again i dont really know if his vote on me is indicative of 'lack of viewpoint/conviction'
(Or at least, is unusual or scum-indicative for him ...)

It's more than the vote on you. That was just an example. There doesn't seem to be much conviction from FB on anything.

[GuiltyLion]

i think this is still the biggest obstacle i have wrt voting s_s... can you elaborate what you mean by "coinciding" with you pushing fb and how that makes them more likely aligned?

I don't feel VPB's push on FB eclipsed range of usual scum distancing, because I don't think it ever turned into Intent to Kill in a way that makes me think miselim. his vote on FB was understated, as Ausuka pointed out, but why go hard on dunking your buddy and putting him in more danger if the goal is to attempt to distance? Like his case on FB amounts to these posts, none of which I think are likely to actually build significant Momentum on FB:

Spoiler: VPB pushing FB

kinda interested in what @baltar saw there, though

Kind of started when FB said I was being laid back or whatever, which I thought was weird and then never followed up on.

The saying you're off for interacting when they asked for interacting, followed by the skitter vote...

It all kind of adds up to like poking at things without conviction of a viewpoint to me. I could see skitter vote as a joke, but still don't feel like FB is pushing in a direction.

im kind of surprised i get more heat for voting skitter than claiming scum a dozen or so times.
I am gonna have to write this down for future reference.

Why are you seemingly not following up on any of the pushes you made?

what should he have conviction on atp?

Anything? We are 42 pages in here. Time to start moving the game in a semi serious direction.

is there anything specific you expected to see from Town!FB that you're not seeing or is this just a generalized "he has no takes" thing?

I didn't say FB has no takes, though they are few and far between. It's more of the fact their takes don't go anywhere. I don't have a strong FB meta, but I don't take anyone this game as a complete slouch.

I get the working a lot thing. I have put in 8 hours Sunday, 14 Monday, and 12 yesterday at work. It sucks and makes it hard to stay up on everything in a mafia game or pursue threads as deeply as you may like. That being said, I do still think it's possible to semi-read along and have some kind of viewpoint.

You think this is typical town!FB behavior?

this is actually encouraging town!Ari to go into reasons why FB isn't scummy

That said, I do see that he encouraged people to vote FB a few times:

GL, you wanna vote FB?

while I don't want to say this is never scum pushing town, I kind of feel this may have been a trap - if I was awkward or seemingly resistant to a vote, that's juicy material to paint me as a FB buddy later should FB flip red

Grant the birthday ydra's wish and vote FB

this was directed at skitter (I think... someone correct me if I'm wrong), which again, looks better for FB if skitter is town but now that I'm on this scum!obscure kick, would be totally easy and safe to say to a partner

FB, what do you think of ari's meta defense of you?

how does this post help push FB? Like it's easy for me to imagine this as "do some townie stuff in response to a townie defending you!". Also worth noting Ari didn't really "defend" FB and was resistant to being suggested that she did.

Then he starts the whole shtick around "why aren't you voting ME" in 1202, 1205, 1212, 1218. At this time I was voting Firebringer, his own scumread! And this was in response to me trying to get FB to elaborate on VPB, a slot FB had expressed suspicion of, a slot that was voting FB. If FB is a miselim he wants, why is he grilling me (town) over giving a reach out to FB when FB might misstep or do something I find suspicious, and why is he trying to vortex my vote onto himself? This is what I mean by coinciding with my pressure on FB - the more I indicated I actually really was seriously scumreading FB and not happy with his play in the game, the more VPB started scumreading me and shading me and discrediting me.

Come 1433, the FB wagon has all but died in favor of Eiralox and never regained momentum again. And VPB doesn't push it or touch it again. So yeah, I don't see why this is town clearing for FB slot, and if anything I think a post like 1310 should add extra scrutiny to FB because I sorta doubt his only three expressed scumreads are all town. Also, the whole "Ari is meta defending FB" claim and angle stands out as well, something I had forgotten til I went back to reread and case this.

[GuiltyLion]

i'm not personally really townreading but a number of my townreads are and I'm currently ok with that: {dv, marci, xofelf}

would yeet: {dann, conman, firebringer, vpb}

This is an absolute trash reads list, imo. DV looks pretty town to me this game. Marci seems pretty townie, though she's opaque sometimes. xofelf is probably null to town lean for me. Dann and conman I've talked about already. FB did look scummy to me early on, so I can agree there. And I'm town.

So like, where's the beef in this reads list? Unless I'm so dead wrong on my reads at the start of this game, I have trouble seeing how people see this list from GL as credibly a good take from someone who has been HIGHLY engaged with the game so far.

There's also this. If I assume DV/marci/xofelf town, then this feels like he's using my mistaken suspicion on townies to buddy/pocket them in favor of discrediting me, and to make the rest of my scumreads look "bad" by association. CMM is town. if Dann/FB are town, why is this an "absolute trash reads list" when he could use it to push some miselims in those players?

[GuiltyLion]

feels kinda weird to me that shea's reaction to one of his top townreads suggesting someone else could vote for him is not to like... investigate why, or read my posts in which the way my opinion evolved is p clearly shown, but instead is to just vote me

I don't vibe with this

why would scum do this, namely. like if you're town and Shea is scum and knows you are town, what do you think they gain from this reaction?

[GuiltyLion]

as a surprise to nobody, i do not like shea's recent contribution to the thread. the way he just jumped in to vote fire in the way he did kind of reminds me of scum-me. like, when i wanna appear like i'm not afraid of dying and i wanna go contrarian to the thread, so i start pushing someone that isn't exactly utr, but is obviously not the first choice. and the reasoning for it feels ehhh. like he's trying to mimic townie annoyance and self-rightousness, but it's just slightly missing the mark. difficult to explain. call it a vibe. it's kinda similar to what i felt when he was talking with me earlier today.

hmmm I had the opposite impression but I am going to synthesize your impression as well and maybe just re-evaluate back to null on that round of Shea posting

I can understand the 'mimic town' vibe but I don't know if I think scum in Shea's place believes Fireisred is actually a good target to go after like that

[GuiltyLion]

Outside of his reticence to scumread S_S, I like Dann's most recent posting a lot more

I see a bunch of people saying they don't really scumread S_S/FB slot but like... is anybody actually townreading there, and for what reason. I've already gone over why I don't think the VPB interactions are clearing and are rather fairly suspicious, and I also really don't think FB did anything town indicative. And I do agree it feels like D2 has been kinda stalled and I think if S_S is a miselim scum are avoiding it for ?? reasons, I think Frog/scamper/Ydra are all town.

That said I also am fine with the obscure wagon and am happy to jump there if it has more momentum than Smart. however I'd also like to see where some of the bad vote slots (obscure, DV, S_S, marci, xofelf replacement) go while the wagons are still fairly tied up

also just as a heads up, I think Nero's VC in 3719 has a mistake, fireisred isn't voting for TSQ as far as I can tell

[GuiltyLion]

in theory, you vote Deas since he's your top scum read. If you had to choose between SS and TSQ then you'd vote SS b/c he's lower on your list. I just think being useless with your vote is scummy and/or dumb.

theres sumn i wanna see with smart first

also i dont usually throw around votes lol

I am going to be following up on this and I am going to want an explanation of what you're waiting to see from Smart at some point

the problem fmpov is that it's very easy for scum!marci with scum!Smart to

say

she "scumread"s him, but without a vote it doesn't mean anything to me and on a Smart redflip I'm gonna be suspicious why you didn't participate in building the wagon on him. if you're town this is more likely to make me mistakenly scumread you. that's why not voting is bad.

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: S_S

was this in response to what I posted or what

I didn't hate the obscure wagon, why abandon it now

[GuiltyLion]

what vote from me would make you townread me the most/scumread me the least?

what I'm looking for mainly is some type of commitment to a wagon that you think has a chance of happening

whether that's obscure, TSQ, or somebody else specifically is less material to whether I understand who you think is the best flip for the game and why, and whether you're taking action to make that happen

I know you indicated a townread on Shea, so for me it's like - would you vote obscure? Why or why not? If not, why are you seemingly ok with him being at risk of lim and not pushing any alternatives that you think are better?

in a realistic sense voting obscure and then obscure flipping red would go a decent way towards weakening my scumread. I just won't have any reason to townread you until I can start to believe that you are trying to eliminate mafia

[GuiltyLion]

when i was present on day 1/actually available, they weren't pushing on me.

which players are you referring to when you say "they"?

[GuiltyLion]

the only thought i briefly remember having was that they were so unimpactful

also I know you saiid something similar earlier, and someone else (I think Datisi?) called it out at the time too, but I have a hard time seeing how you thought VPB was unimpactful. He was a high activity poster (he still currently has more than 3x as many posts as you), got involved with arguments with several players, participated in several wagons (FB, CMM, GL), etc. Why do you think you had VPB as unimpactful, especially in contrast to other players in the game?

[GuiltyLion]

by "they" i meant dann - i didn't check pronouns so just used a neutral one

ah ok, sorry, I misread your post and thought you were talking directly to Dann, not TSQ, when you said "you". this makes sense thanks

[GuiltyLion]

why would anyone think ari only has to die if she gets 1 scum right? why is that so specific?

did you misphrase this or something

scamper's point was Ari probably had at least another scum in her scumreads, not just 1

[GuiltyLion]

Certainly in some cases, I could demonstrate commitment by remaining flexible, no? I think I'm fine with starting on obscure, but if something else came up that looked more promising, I would think that I could show a desire to eliminate scum more by switching than by stubbornly staying.

Sorry yeah, when I said "commitment" I didn't mean commitment in the sense of like - pick one wagon and then you have to stay there - but rather commitment in terms of like, making a vote to show that you're willing to put some real stake towards where your reads are. of course it's always good to be flexible.

We still have almost a week, by solidifying wagons on objectively LHF slots we do a lot to stifle pushes against players who might otherwise be harder to catch.

I think this is maybe a crux of us having different approaches to mafia (and I'm not sure it's really alignment indicative here) - I don't buy that solidifying wagons stifles anything, I think it creates more useful information because it forces all the players in the game to respond and react to those wagons. I don't think harder to catch players become easier to catch when you have a bunch of people not voting or vanity voting.

with respect to obscure specifically, I don't think it'd be all that detrimental if we miselimmed him here, every wagon can't be correct. to me, the info of knowing who is SRing (or at least not TRing) obscure enough to vote him, vs who is TRing him (or SRing elsewhere) enough to push a counter proposal, is more useful than players withholding voting in order to try to avoid an errant vote.

[GuiltyLion]

so i reiterate again: if anyone has actual good reason to townread hem beyond him posting a lot, speak up, otherwise i want u to vote hem

I will reread HEM and get back to you on this, I have him shelved as an early townread but I do not like his recent spat with you and I agree he's felt fairly detached today

[GuiltyLion]

I suppose what I'm talking myself into, which is probably also the best way I personally can show commitment, is to try to find and run up a non-major wagon. But as a new replacement, I'm also not the best judge of what might be a good choice, but I guess I should just pick one. I'll look into that.

yeah I should clarify I'm not saying you (or anyone)

has

to participate in exclusively the major wagons, but in that case you should be making a case for a different wagon, that way I know "S_S doesn't like the major wagons and thinks [X] other player is scummier than the current players of interest", which is useful info, especially later once we have more flips

if you've been busy and still aren't caught up enough yet to know where to go, I can buy that, as long as it feels like you're working your way there

[GuiltyLion]

I could imagine the HEM-VPB conflicts as distancing. Initial friction 1167, 1171, and then the argument over HEM's readslist (1222, 1262, 1267, 1279, 1281, 1282, 1283, 1284, 1286, 1303). there's a lot of sass and intensity in how they fight with each other but it doesn't seem to actually amount to strong scumreads or votes on each other. the way they talk to each other mainly seems to serve the purpose of establishing an argument between the two more than anything else.

[GuiltyLion]

is this the time to reveal I've been bad and looking at preflip associatives between fire and obscure all morning

why move off obscure to vote fireisred then, if you still see obscure as scum?

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: humaneatingmonkey

I'm down to see where this goes. I'm losing confidence in the major wagons and looking at HEM/VPB associatives they look scummy to me. and I trust scamper, and HEM's interactions with him today felt really bad faith

[GuiltyLion]

I could imagine the HEM-VPB conflicts as distancing. Initial friction 1167, 1171, and then the argument over HEM's readslist (1222, 1262, 1267, 1279, 1281, 1282, 1283, 1284, 1286, 1303). there's a lot of sass and intensity in how they fight with each other but it doesn't seem to actually amount to strong scumreads or votes on each other. the way they talk to each other mainly seems to serve the purpose of establishing an argument between the two more than anything else.

want to signal boost my own post again and add further that it reminds me of how I like to distance as scum. if you throw in a lot of intensity, saying things like

> "is that the surface level reads i should expect from you from now on"
or
> "[your readslist has] Zero scum, or anything generally that doesn't have the flavor of lukewarm milk. It's a pointless list to make other than it looks like effort"

it makes people feel like you're unaligned because of the sass despite the fact that you're not actually solving each other. They ask a lot of pointed questions back and forth but it doesn't vibe to me like either side had a real agenda to what they were doing (VPB - don't see him trying to really push HEM for lim or rebuff a townie on the right track, HEM - don't see him trying to solve VPB).

[GuiltyLion]

I trust scamper

To be town, or to be right?

to be town, but that makes me take his reads/reasoning as more likely to be right as well. I didn't really ever get to a point of fully agreeing with him on Relly/TSQ but I can get behind this HEM read

[GuiltyLion]

the thing I like about obscure right now is he feels earnest to me in this fixation on DV. I know "why me instead of [x]" is usually a scummy response but I get the sense scum!obscure would be making more noise about S_S or Dann, instead he's largely rebuffed voting those players and is pushing his own vanity scumread that doesn't have any real traction at the moment

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: humaneatingmonkey
I'm fine ending the day here tbh

did you see where HEM said he wouldn't be back until tomorrow?

@Nero, I've seen town!Gamma do the exact same thing of equating votes on him as "not wanting to play with" him, so I don't think it's strictly scummy. but I'm having trouble squaring how he thinks it's ok to then drop an E-1 vote on a player who hasn't been around to play since the wagon sprung up

[GuiltyLion]

hot take: gamma and hem are both scum, this is a bluff to stop the wagon while not looking like shit from defending hem

Gamma was calling out HEM on D1 for dodgy interactions with Ari... a little too prescient maybe?

[GuiltyLion]

yes

can people who naked voted me please drop their reasons for voting tnx

well I don't think all of S_S/Dann/obscure are scum, and I've been townreading Dann/obscure as of late, which makes me think I should expand the pool of people I'm looking at, and I don't really have great reasons to TR you or feel like you've done much today

scamper is a strong TR and I think your interactions with him were pointlessly antagonistic and anti-town

and then when I checked your interactions with VPB they felt fairly forced and over-aggressive for how little you two actually engaged with each other. like when you did engage, it felt like both of you were pushing on each other hard, but there was no voting or casing each other to other players. which fits the profile of scum who want to seem unaligned but don't actually want to do any work to create Actual Pressure on each other

[GuiltyLion]

Has anyone else reviewed VPB/HEM associatives and have thoughts there? For me that specifically was something that made me more interested in a HEM vote.

[GuiltyLion]

Did you share your thoughts there?

I could imagine the HEM-VPB conflicts as distancing. Initial friction 1167, 1171, and then the argument over HEM's readslist (1222, 1262, 1267, 1279, 1281, 1282, 1283, 1284, 1286, 1303). there's a lot of sass and intensity in how they fight with each other but it doesn't seem to actually amount to strong scumreads or votes on each other. the way they talk to each other mainly seems to serve the purpose of establishing an argument between the two more than anything else.

want to signal boost my own post again and add further that it reminds me of how I like to distance as scum. if you throw in a lot of intensity, saying things like

> "is that the surface level reads i should expect from you from now on"
or
> "[your readslist has] Zero scum, or anything generally that doesn't have the flavor of lukewarm milk. It's a pointless list to make other than it looks like effort"

it makes people feel like you're unaligned because of the sass despite the fact that you're not actually solving each other. They ask a lot of pointed questions back and forth but it doesn't vibe to me like either side had a real agenda to what they were doing (VPB - don't see him trying to really push HEM for lim or rebuff a townie on the right track, HEM - don't see him trying to solve VPB).

@Shea

"Theatre" is actually a good word to capture my feelings here, it gives me the impression HEM and VPB wanted the thread to know that they were at odds, but to me the emotions in their posts are played up and disconnected from their actions in engaging with each other. Feels performance and makes me think of how I treat my scumbuddies

[GuiltyLion]

enchant unfortunately is probably town

what's your reasoning, I'm not there on Enchant yet

[GuiltyLion]

HEM whenever you return and have time to play I'd like a direct response to 4033

specifically whether 3875 was a Serious Post or not, and then whether you have re-evaluated your townreads at all since 2966 and if so, which townreads

[GuiltyLion]

I think the HEM stuff is clearing if HEM is scum

but if HEM is town I don't see why it can't be WKing

[GuiltyLion]

Work has been frustrating lately and im only reminded of this game during commutes

you mean you aren't thinking about mafia every waking moment like a normal person?

[GuiltyLion]

wow that was poorly phrased, I was trying to make a joke about me (and the rest of us) being mafia addicts but I think I failed a grammar

*chugs coffee*