And methinks Reck's right. Less info mafia has about who will die if they shoot someone, the better. Would you rather have them aim for who they think the most dangerous singular player is, and maybe shoot the crappier team, or for who they think the most dangerous team-as-a-whole is?
Mafia 126 - Lovers Mafia! [Game Over]
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Purple Orange Goon
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@ Grey - Hahaha. Ha. ha.
And methinks Reck's right. Less info mafia has about who will die if they shoot someone, the better. Would you rather have them aim for who they think the most dangerous singular player is, and maybe shoot the crappier team, or for who they think the most dangerous team-as-a-whole is?
Vote: Antihero- blissfully ignoring the whole Grey-Reck-claim thing going down around him. (silavor at least gets in on the action tangentially with his vote)-
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He at least mentions the claim issue. ThoughAntihero wrote:Also, how is silavor's vote anymore related to the issues at hand than mine?prettysure he was joking.
I'm confuzzled as to how it clears silavor. And IEmpTyger wrote:Also, the only one it clears is silavor. The only way it clears Reckoner or PO is if you believe that antitowns wouldn't lie when it's advantageous for them to do so.aminclined to think it clears Reck, at least with a fair degree of probability. His reaction read very natural.
Dammit, man. NOW who do I vote for?GreyICE wrote:And, btw, Antihero (which is why he's ignoring the Reck/ICE drama, PO )-
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Because otherwise no single one of the many competent players in this game would have come along and soon clarified it anyway? If there was any towncred to be gained by clarifying things first, why NOT take it? If you can see ulterior insincere motives in Reck, I can find them for silavor. There's no more "evidence" he's clear than Reck. It comes down to whether you read them as responding sincerely or not.EmpTyger wrote:It clears silavor because antitowns don't clarify matters to advocate a protown course. They might if it hurts the town. They might if it saves their own neck. But silavor could have easily stayed quiet then and let Reckoner's (genuine or deliberate) error hold. Instead he called Reckoner out. I don't see an antitown doing that.
Which I saw as tangentially touching upon the claim issue. (Ditto Espy's "claim.") Yours was the only post I saw that completely ignored everything else happening inthread. (Which makes sense, now I know you're Grey's mason).Antihero wrote:
No, he didn't. He was responding to Espy's "claim."PO wrote:He at least mentions the claim issue. Though pretty sure he was joking.
Am fine with claiming, but I dunno my partner's opinion on the matter yet, and would prefer to get his OK first.-
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Purple Orange Goon
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Hey there, Emp. Yup. I knew there was daytalk. And I'd forgotten. Which is one reason I correctly myself so quickly - it was a "doh, that's right" remembering, not something that hit me completely out of the blue.
You can believe me or not, and people probably won't. So my apologies in advance to Espy for not reviewing the game rules before I posted, and getting him killed because of it. I can say as scum I'd have looked more carefully at what I said in the signup thread, but it's all WIFOM at this point.
And as I was writing a longer post anyway, I might as well post that:
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Actually, someone did:EmpTyger wrote:A guilty silavor could have sit back and let the confusion develop. He may or may not have stuck his neck out to further any misunderstanding. But he didn’t do either of those things. He immediately clarified it to a protown course. Which I don’t see an antitown player doing. (In fact, no one has disputed that it was a protown move; the only argument seems to be how conclusively protown it is.)
I was accepting your assumption it was a protown move for the sake of the argument - even IF it was a clarifying protown move, I cannot see how it clears silavor as town. I'm not sure this is worth arguing about, and I'm happy to drop it (as you seem to have when it came to my response), but ILlamarble wrote:But yeah that's weird logic for calling Silvavor town; pretty much anyone could have corrected that.Maybe he was scum hoping to nip a potential source of towncred in the bud.amcompletely befuddled by your reasoning here. What you seem to be saying is that anti-town players would never make a strategic helpful/protown move...which is absurd. Have you noticed why GreyICE is accusing my darling lover Espy of being scum, for instance?
I'd disagree with GreyICE about his particular application of the tell in the case of Espy. But not the fact that itGreyICE wrote:Could you be a little more nonconfrontational and skim the thread a bit harder? You've got a list of posts contributing nothing but creating a "solid" history of "helpful" posting...canwork as a tell.
And though we're working with a tiny sample size, I actually think it applies quite well to silavor's current ISO.
On that note,Unvote, Vote: silavor, as Anti-Grey are a team, and I'm still trying to decide whether to roll my eyes at Grey or call him scum.-
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Purple Orange Goon
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It's not that I expect more posts, it's that I expected more in the posts already posted. Unlike you and some other folks who just had time to say "hi" in the thread, silavor was following the discussion for a while -- and unlike them, he didn't cast an actual vote or give an opinion on anyone. (Thingy didn't do so great either). Maybe I missed someone in my ISOs, but that's what I saw.Haylen wrote:Sivalor isnt scum, Purple Orange. I would request you explain why you expect more posts from him since the game has only been open for about 24 hours.
Not saying it's the grandest case made ever. I often scumhunt with questions, too, at the beginning of threads, so there's that to take into account with his last post, which actually maybe confronts someone. Plus, yeah...the fact it's hard to derive much from a track record of 5 whole posts. But I prefer to have my vote on someone, I don't want it on Grey/Anti (where it was sitting before) unless or unless or until I feel I can articulate at least a halfbaked case on the guys; and this is what I've got right now, until I do another reread of the thread and maybe find someone better. silavor is not-as-town as the other pairs I've looked at.
Thing is, Isilavor wrote:PO, I'm not quite sure how the point you're trying to make about me applies to me more than anyone else. A lot of what's been going on for the first five pages or so seems like rather useless chatter to me, and I don't have a whole lot to say regarding the recent pages, either. It doesn't mean I'm scum, and it certainly doesn't mean I've got a history of making "helpful" posts, seeing how I haven'tmadeany posts in the first place.don'tconsider the first five pages useless chatter. Did you see how quickly serious votes started being cast? The case on Grey/Anti is basically made from pages 1 and 2. Reck and I have suspicion/towncred/whatever on us left and right because of our reactions to Grey. Thingy made some posts I need to take a second look at. (And have you seen the whole argument I've been having with Emp about your ISO 2, which was apparently so amazingly helpful and clarifying for the town that he cleared you as town?) There was a LOT that went on, and a LOT that got said.
And there's certainly a lot that's gone on since then. What do you think of the latest couple pages?-
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I'm in other games here and on another site. I haz a real life. I forgot, and as far as I was concerned that day, the only new shiny thing in this game was the daytalk (on which there was a topic in the Mafia Discussion board I'd been following). I jumped in feetfirst, started reading an exchange I found hilarious (because I know Grey's a very competent player), where the fundamental assumption of one player was that there were nightkills, and the other player didn't correct him. And I never bothered to questioned the assumption. Until I re-read Grey's post, and went "LOL. I'm an idiot. That's right, this thing has no nightkills."EmpTyger wrote:c) No, I think he was lying about forgetting. PO said that he only signed up because this was a nightless daytalking game. I don't believe he could have forgotten it 2 days later. And, I mean, even GreyIce said his I-forgot-the-game-was-nightless was "contrived".
It's all I can say. You either believe me or you don't. Obviously you don't. I don't know that I would in your shoes.
Meh, I think some of Espy's WERE actually helpful.PO:
I have never seen a mafia member act so quickly to defuse and clarify. (And that's even not taking into account the daytalking.) Have you?
(And I read GreyIce's calling Espeonage "helpful" as sarcasm. Hence the quotes.)
And...err...I'vedefused and clarified as scum before? Mostly when I got bloody annoyed that people were being idiots (personality tell), and when I was looking desperately for something safe to say that would make it look like I was jumping in and contributing to the thread early on, and save me from the accusation of lurk lurk lurking away. Again, if you know someone's going to say it eventually, why NOT jump on it for any possible towncred? So...yeah. Sorry. There's very few times I'll dismiss something as stuff scum just wouldn't do. And that post in particularissomething I could see myself saying as scum. Particularly in that manner, as a softpeddled question-statement.
It was your quickness to clear silavor - not even just say it indicated he was town, or that he was probably town, but outright CLEAR him - over something I read as pretty darn null, that confused me here. 100% understand not wanting to clear me or Reck. (Even though I disagreed on Reck at that point). Do NOT understand clearing silavor.
On an unrelated note, have you and Thingy just decided to let you be the team spokesperson? Because if I went after silavor over that stuff, I should have totally gone after him as well. It's largely the fact you're paired with him makes menot, at this point. (Well, that, and the fact that although he annoys me to death and has said zilch, right now I'm actually reading him as town).-
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LOL. At least if I'm lynched, it'll be because I was useless. That actually makes me feel better.Kise wrote:I prefer to deal with Esp & Purp, day 1. If Esp (Purp too, I believe) isn't going to add anything like he suggests the rest of us should, then he's not needed. I'd like to keep Reck & Nero around so they can spot the rival-scum lynching their buddies.
Cross out my support of Reck then, if really wasthataware of the setup. I darn forgot that half of the setup, so I could actually understand Reck forgetting, IM conversation or no. But "didn't realize" =/= forgot.
I also realize I never explicitly mention forgetting (pre Emp post), unfortunately, so make of that what you will.
Dunno that there's any doubt about this anymore, but Thingy's telling the truth about the werewolf thing. Even if he hadn't posted a link, the construction of his sentences in that one post indicates it's just a vocabulary difference, with wolves = scum and "wolf hunting" used like our term scumhunting.Mariyta wrote:The point about Thingy is interesting, though. I'll have to take a look at it.
I thought the defense was strange, because Grey's first posts were definitely scummy...snake nailed it, Emp expounded. It's just that knowing some of Grey's proclivities, I'm more inclined to laugh at him and suspend judgment for a bit longer.Llamarble wrote:Does anyone think Umbrage is already chainsawing for GreyIce during RVS?
Emp's case on GreyIce is weak, sure, but getoutofRVSreasoning is always stretchy.-
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He's actually on my silavor wagon. :p They just need to claim lovers and get it over with.Espeonage wrote:@ Reck: Way to make anew wagon but I can't really agree with it. The tone is somewhat jovial in the first post so I am inclined to believe that most parts are joking as she said. I think you're reading a bit much into it but it's still a valid case if you interpret it that way. I'm not going to join that wagon but I'm not going to oppose.
Now to go read a couple of pages. Give me a few minutes, if I'm allowed them.
AND WHY ARE YOU FENCESITTING??? How much more wishy-washy can you get on the Haylen thing??
Tone of post reads definitely jovial to me, and I think Reck's case is exaggerated crud blown way out of proportion, but I'm thinking that's just a symptom of how he plays. (Was that wishy washy on Reck?) And sez the person who made a case on silavor based on...well, really not much, but there you have it. Not seeing anything overtly town in Haylen's posts, however, so I'm happy continuing to bothering silavor.-
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Hey now, "really not much" still equals a bit of something. I feel like targetting you because because, unlike some of the other pairs I've looked at, you and Haylen have yet to do anything that makes me go, "....eeesch, yeah, that's pretty townie town town." And because you hadn't taken stands on anyone. I did consider moving my vote Reck after Kise told us Reck was lying, but decided I'd keep holding it on you. Because no one else is, because you and Haylen are getting very worked up about it, and because you two have been playing WAY more defense than offense.silavor wrote:
Glad to know I'm being targeted just because you feel like targeting me. It lendsPurple Orange wrote:And sez the person who made a case on silavor based on...well, really not much, but there you have it. Not seeing anything overtly town in Haylen's posts, however, so I'm happy continuing to bothering silavor.somuch credit to your case.
EBWOP: well, I think that counts as a stand on someone. LOL.
Of course that would change things. Seeing whatxRECKONERx wrote:Except Kise & I have not talked about this game once, and I wasn't even consciously aware of the fact that he was IN THIS GAME until he posted his first post, which contained the initial attack on me.Ibloody well forgot, I don't put it beyond the realm of possibility that Kise misremembered who he was talking to. But, yeah. I think you're telling the truth. If you're lying, my hat's off to you.-
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@ Kise - I read Reck's post 169 as responding fully to everything you said in 117. "I KNOW you read the role PMs during signups" -- what do you say to that other than, " dude, I didn't, my only acquaintance with this setup AT ALL until today was adding a /in to the singup thread"? So...yeah. I really don't see anything fishy there.
I also think you believed completely in what you said, too. Lying about a conversation would be...yeah, seriously,it makes no sense. Especially if there was the possibility of it being disproved. Which is why Esp and me thought that maybe you folks could be on the same scumteam, doing some crazy gambit...then realized that was stupid too, because a 1:1 trade early would be even stupider, and the whole thing wouldn't make the other pair clear of scum suspicion anyway. Sooo...I'm left believing you were telling the truth about the IM thing, just mixed up the recipient.
I still read Reck as genuine over the first page, but I've never actually played a game with him before, so my gut on thisisquestionable.
And you don't seem scummy.
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@ GreyICE...you're lurking backstage, man. Wassup with that? Things too interesting in the scum quicktopic? I iz missing your awesome scumhunting craziness.
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Again, failed to grasp the significance of Grey's until I reread the posts on that page. Which, yeah. I know sounds horrible and fabricated, but there it is. (Even if I'm scum, though, I think you still have to believe that I failed reading comprehension that day, posting what I did after Grey had already cleared up the issue).Kise wrote:What I'm not understanding is what she could have been doing for that minute or 2 to realize this is nightless, when her first post gave the impression she looked over everything - including Grey's comment about scum not being able to harm anyone.
Uh...I didn't? I mixed them up in my reply to Emp later in the thread. Unless you're talking about that post?llamarble wrote:And I don't see why he mixes up daytalk with nightkilling in his ohnoI'mmadienow post unless he had already internalized the setup beforehand and thus thinks of them as equally obvious.-
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Yeah, maybe a bit harsh, but all your posts up to that point could be summarized: "we should massclaim, I don't agree with my lover on GreyICE maybe, and I'm a villagey villagerish villa!" :p Last bit in particular drove me up the wall.Thingyman wrote:I am sorry that I am managing to "annoy you to death" somehow? :S - if it's because I've said "zilch" (which I think is a bit unfair and harsh to say - especially given that I've apparently said enough to warrant a town read), then I'm reading the thread right now and will have some thoughts when I'm done.
You say you think Umbridge/q21 are too scummy to be scum - what in particular did you find scummy about them?
Uh...I think we all assumed there was the possibility that Reck could have deleted stuff? Again, my hat's off to him if he's lying, as that was some pretty darn genuine looking outrage. :pq21 wrote:There is a big shiny delete button.-
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@ vezok:
...and the q21 wagon didn't bother you at all?vezokpiraka wrote:Why do I keep seeing 5 pages over the night????
I don't like Kdca wagon. I don't know. Something just irks me I see in one page a lot of people sheeping each other and doing exactly what Kdca did all game.
In related news, you call q21 scum for some unnamed reason, start the wagon on him, then don't bother to say another word about him, even with the Umbridge-q21-Grey-Anti matter that erupted later. On the other hand, you take time to comment on the Kise/Reck matter, you conclude one of them is lying, and you call Kise scum. Why did you think q21 was scum the first place? What was scummy to you about him that made you leave your vote on him instead of moving it over to Kise?
@ Antihero:
Why do you single out kcda in particular for buddying?Antihero wrote:
buddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddyKcdaspot wrote:Read Kise's ISO.
I'm convinced of my vote. Reck seems to want to blow it WAY out of proportion. As far as I'm concerned, scummy thing happen IN thread rather out of thread.
Reck is over-perusing baseless and harmless nothings.
That's that.
@ q21
What did you mean by this? (Sorry the question is vague. I just can't think of a better way to ask it.)q21 wrote:I quite like reck's Haylen vote...
@ ThingymanThingyman wrote:wrt q21 & Umbrage: I am by no means clearing them and I will not in any way oppose their lynch, but I am personally thinking that they're perhaps "too scummy to be scum", so I am ignoring them for now.
^Answer plz?Purple Orange wrote:You say you think Umbridge/q21 are too scummy to be scum - what in particular did you find scummy about them?
Oh, and reason for this one, too.Thingyman 339 wrote:VOTE: Kcdaspot-
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I actually don't see how his post is any worse (well, aside from his complete failure to grasp the issue) than the rest of the people who were picking a side in this thing. Mariyta's 200? Espy's 302? Umbrage's 316? (leaving out dram, as I'm told that's a special case). LOL, what aboutAntihero wrote:Because it looks to me like he's just doing it to get Kise's favor.
Do you see anyone else buddying Kise so blatantly?mesaying I read Reck as sincere? People have been calling people town all thread, and sometimes very strongly.
Do you consider that to be mindlessly sheeping, blindly sheeping, some other kind of sheeping, or NOT sheeping?q21 wrote:I thought that reck's case and vote on Haylen had a shred of validity and given how early it was in the game I felt it was enough to vote on... and I was busy being too disinterested to think for myself at that moment.
So did you agree with all of it? Part of it? What parts?Thingyman wrote:@ PO
The scumminess about q21 has already been outlined by other ppl - and I agree that it looks level 1 scummy.
Actually, I'd appreciate a nice clean bulletpoint summary free from histrionics.GreyICE wrote:Does anyone who is not Umbrage want a history of the scummy things he's done? Or were my earlier posts on the subject quite enough?-
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Umbrage wrote:So far, I haven't seen anyone display any signs of having read my posts.
* I disagree with your case on Reck, but it's rational. Just took a while (and some posts from Emp and q21) for the thought process of your position to get completely laid out and the gaps filled in.
* Are there any additional reasons you find Reck scummy, independent of the "one of them has to be lying" reason?
* If there's any OMGUS-style stuff, it starts when you chainsaw-defend for your lover by FoS-ing Grey/Anti. Either way, I could care less, as there's no law that says, "thou canst not attack a scummy person who didst first attack thee."
* I found your early defense of Grey, then of me, strange. Icanbuy Grey's argument that it was calculated and deliberate. Pattern doesn't continue, though, so, meh.
Confused here. Does the "mistake" refer to Kise mixing up Reck and Nero?Umbrage wrote:2. Nero Cain is Reck's lover, and one of the people Kise said he could've chatted with. With a QT, it would be pretty easy for the two of them to play on a mistake made by Kise.
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^THIS.EmpTyger wrote:Um, that doesn’t change that “A total and complete 180 from each other without even ACKNOWLEDGING each other's position” is flat out wrong. And you’re just as wrong about that second post. q21 isn’t attacking vezok because vezok voted me or suspected you. He’s attacking vezok because vezok was taking contradictory positions. There’s no 180, because q21 and Umbrage are talking about 2 different issues.
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Maybe against weak to average players in 24hr cycle games? Not much experience with either side when it comes to these three-week-day games. I've completed one pretty good scum game where I had almost everyone thinking I was obvtown, and one absolutely horrid one where I screwed over my team with my scumminess and poor choice of night action. I tend to post long and thoughtfulish posts regardless of alignment.Thingyman wrote:PO, are you known for being a good scum? Do you make long and thoughtful posts in all of your games?-
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Espy's unvote would be my fault. I told him I was seeing a helluva lot of STUPID from kcda, but not necessarily scum. And that BS was V/LA for the past couple days, not lurking, and that we were jumping on this thing with very little data. Also that I found it hard to believe that a 4-person scum daytalk quicktopic would let kcda behave so darn badly, or be unable to fill him in on the right details. The fact that Emp also didn't like the wagon reinforced my caution.
Espy is wanting to play some stuff close to the chest, here, and I've been disagreeing with him about that too. :p-
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Well, yeah. I said all this to Espy, and he unvoted, before kcda made his "sorry for my shit play" post. And IGreyICE wrote:To be perfectly frank, one of the others in the 4 person chat is Baby Spice. Also, 4 person daychat could result in exactly the behavior pattern we're seeing. kcda suddenly started apologizing for his 'shit play' and backed the fuck off of what he was doing before. So, who told him off? Us in the thread? Maybe, but I don't think so. Baby Spice? Uh... yeah. No. So... who?dothink Baby Spice told him off - you see him "get it"only after she comes back. It's possible they're stuck on a scumteam with vezok/Snake or dram/wolf or something, in which case kcda may very well have been left out to dry with zero help anyway until BS returned. But everyone else in this thread seems to "get it" and have some definite opinions on it and be active.-
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Anyhows - what I was writing before that interruption:
Unvote, Vote: GreyICE
Because Espy sez I can (FINALLY), and because benefit of the doubt has its snapping and breaking point. If it walks and talks and looks like scum...yeah, there's a good chance it's scum. I believe you said this yourself, Grey?
Anti is decently null to me.
But Grey has misreps, ad homs, and the worst facade of aggressive scumhunting I've seen in a long time. Which, meh, might not be so bad in itself, because one can get reactions from a push like that (see benefit of the doubt). But then the final, "oh, ok, people don't seem to be buying this case...let's give myself a backdoor out and say maybe Umbrage is just really bad town...let's turn on a dime and drop this guy and sheep the kcda wagon!" That was pretty darn bad.
Umbrage may very well be scum - not because of Grey's crud case on him/q21, or even because of his defensive reactions (still trying to decide whether it's defensive scum of incensed town), but because of some stuff q21 does later in the thread. Still rather ambivalent about him.
Not so ambivalent about Grey. I pushed him on the lurking/not contributing thing gently earlier, but that was damn serious. Because he was. And when he got aggressive after being called out, he did it BADLY.-
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And also some stuff Umbrage does a bit later.Purple Orange wrote: Umbrage may very well be scum [...] because of some stuff q21 does later in the thread.
To avoid vagueness here: didn't like q21's ISO 5
* Lotta people make excuses for their absences. But the only time I've felt the need to make a point of saying I saw the game as a commitment, honest! was when I was scum. (kcda also gets major scumpoints for something similar in his latest post).
* The really wordy and roundabout storybook way he took of saying the DARN SIMPLE THING of "Reck could have deleted the conversation." Can I pinpoint exactly why this makes me uneasy? Not really. But it does. Best shot I can give is that it reads like him going, "oh look I'm generating a long post of content!"
Later Umbrage stuff:
* Umbrage distances himself from "the town" a lot with the language of his posts. I know he could do this as frustrated town as well, like most of the defensive stuff -- but I read this element in more a scumleaning way than a townleaning way.
* People have EVERY RIGHT to dismiss a post with the one-word answer "scum." And other people have every right to call them on it later, especially after a flip or two. Call them idiots, but saying they have "no right" just reads like you going, "fine, I'm scum, BUT I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU'RE GETTING AWAY WITH THIS STUPID SHORTCUT! YOU DIDN'T DO IT THE RIGHT WAY!"-
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You're right, and I'll drop this insofar as it goes. I don't, or at least shouldn't, have a problem with people switching to another wagon they also think is scummy.There are four scum teams in the game, but apparently changing your vote from someone you are pretty sure is scum to someone that is most likely scum because there's momentum towards the 'most likely' scum wagon is somehow scummy. I'd say it's a blatant false case, but oddly it's the sort of argument I most often see from townies.
Influencing my judgment on this is the fact that allIsee from BS/kcda at that point are "mountains of stupidity." Why the heck would you abandon a case on someone you apparently thought was awesomely scummy enough to go on for two frikkin pages yelling at him that he was scum, to jump on a weak case like BS/kcda? Something wasn't right, something didn't compute there, and, yeah, I read something there as insincere. Dislike the "maybe he's awful town" dropped in the middle of things, because it conflicts with everything else you'd vehemently said and maintained about him, both before and after.
You made a crud case, whose only real notable element is that it's over-the-top in-your-face aggressive, after you got called out for doing not much of anything. Color me suspicious.
Pushing and clarifying the "Reck or Kise is lying" case is jack? Seriously - bulletpoint/quote/whatever summary of all the scummy things Umbrage has done, sans hyperbole. Because your initial case was shit. If your reason for going after them is gut...well, great, yay gut? Mine admittedly tends to suck.I find it unlikely because BOTH of their play has been dramatically anti-town, because both of them have contributed jack, and because if I read the ISO ofeither oneI just start thinking "scum, scum, scum..."
EBWOP: ...ok, I'll give you that 491 is scummy.-
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Baby Spice's latest post was completely dreadful. Not one good point in the whole thing, and the vote on you in it was made for 99% bad reasons. Like...wow. Was itGreyICE wrote:kcda's most recent posts read like a kid with his hand stuck in the cookie jar. "Sorry mommy, it was an accident, I just slipped and the lid was loose and my hand happened to be there. I promise I won't do it again!" Baby Spice's most recent post was... garbage. I don't know what else to call it.scummyawful, though?
kcda's latest post WAS scummy. Not for the zomg apology, but for the "I'll try to do a good job for the sake of the town" bit.-
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Why are you using the guy you just accused of being scum as an example of poorUmbrage 370 wrote: If the town is stupid enough to believe you, then I'll be happy to be lynched.
I don't think town is that stupid, though.
Oh wait, maybe they are:
Excellent argument there. My reasons are bullshit, eh? Can't argue with that. And of course you're not biased in any way. No sir.Reck wrote:No… no, it doesn't. And even if it did have to be one of us, your reasons for voting me over Kise are, quite frankly, bullshit. So you're either really bad at being town or really bad at being mafia, I just can't figure out which.townplay?-
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So it's perfectly fine when GreyICE initiates it and does it the whole damn game, but scummy enough to vote over when kcda does it?xRECKONERx wrote: Okay. This is the motherfucking textbook definition of "trying to appear helpful in order to appear town".
Unvote; Vote: Kcdapost
I implore you all to do so as well.
And here we go again.
Vote: GreyICE
Grey/Anti are scum because Grey (sans the initial Reck attack) played quite passively until being called out on it, because his case when he finally made one was overaggressive compensating crud, because he refused to make a good case when asked, and because the signal to noise ratio in his posts is utterly abysmal. And because I'm using meta, so shoot me. This is not the GreyICE I read in several other games, when I was trying to get a handle on him before.
(If you guys are actually town...seriously, what the HELL is going on?)
(And in either case, Grey: WHY were/are kcda's posts scummy? WHY were/are BS's?)
I dunno where the heck Espy's got to, but if he doesn't get back here, I'll pull together myself what I think he was going to say. I think it was probably just some of the above with supporting quotes, though.
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Emp/Thingy and Kise/partner = townreads
Currently not seeing anything scummier from llama/darla than I've seen from anyone else.
Stupidity is not a scumtell.
...xRECKONERx wrote:I rarely pay attention to posts that don't mention me/aren't directed at me, of course I'm going to wind up attacking people who attack me more often than others.
How the heck is that town play?-
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Purple Orange Goon
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Poor choice of words, mostly. "Playing awfully" might be a bit better? Was using it as a catch-all word for a lot of the things people seem to be building cases over lately; I see lynches proposed and jumped on because of poor play, but little attempt to connect the poor play to scum motivation. Posts are "scummy" and "scumtastic," and half the time it seems to mean "cuss-filled" or "annoying" or "reading comprehension FAIL" or "lurking as badly as 3/4 of the other people in this game."GreyICE wrote:The one thing that bothers me in the post? And that means you now get to play Q&A with me?
See, here's the funny thing. I read kcda as inexperienced and young. But he's not at all stupid. I can read the difference, and if that's not enough, several posters in this thread have demonstrated the difference between the former and the latter. And here's the funny part. I know you well enough to know that you can read the difference too.Stupidity is not a scumtell.
So why did you post that statement?
Like, this, for instance:
Or this:Kcdaspot wrote:Lover talked me in to it... and then I saw ^^that.
.... no... umbrage is getting too mad... I'm not having this not in this game...
Or this:xRECKONERx wrote:I'm about *this* close to just slapping my vote back on KCDA and leaving it there until he gets lynched, because he's fucking terrible.
Llamarble needs to get out more. Lord knows I WANTED to vote for kcda yesterday over this, but I couldn't make myself do it, having recently seen town do JUST THAT.Llamarble wrote:He's accusing Reck for blowing something he CLEARLY HAS NOT READ CAREFULLY out of proportion.
There is no way a townie would consider voting someone based on attitude toward situation X without bothering to read situation X carefully enough to decide what attitudes are reasonable.-
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@ kcdaspot:
Was this "read" as in "you guys need to go read Kise's ISO," or "read" as in, "I just read (past tense) Kise's ISO"?kcdaspot ISO 12 wrote:Read Kise's ISO.
Why did they stick in your mind then? You mention dram and wolf later; do Haylen and silva still stand out to you?kcdaspot ISO 15 wrote:For some reason Haylen and silva, and Dram and wererwolf stick out in my mind....
What don't you like about dram/wolf recently?kcdaspot ISO 26 wrote:don't know if I like dram's/werewolf's contributions as of late.
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@vezok:
Do you still think this? Why/why not?vezok ISO 8 wrote:I still think Kise is gambiting scum.-
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@ silavor:
What happened inbetween these:silavor ISO 8, Thu Feb 03 2:49 pm wrote:Meanwhile, it's entirely possible that Kise thought he was remembering a conversation he'd had with Reck, when it was really a conversation with someone else. I'd like to hear Kise's side before passing any judgement.
And this?silavor ISO 9, Thu Feb 03 3:43 pm wrote:Then, of course, you leap straight off Haylen and on to Kise for what could very well be a total misunderstanding. Or it could be a blatant lie and Kise is totally scum, I really don't know, but I don't want to jump to conclusions about Kise just yet.
What is your position now?silavor ISO 12, Thu Feb 03 4:30 pm wrote:One of you is lying, and unlike you I'm not totally convinced you're the innocent one.-
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Err...so you don't see any incompatablity between the statements "it could very well be a total misunderstanding, or it could be a blatant lie, or whatever" and "one of you is lying"? Either it's a misunderstanding, meaning NO ONE IS LYING, or one of the two is lying. You leave the "misunderstanding" possibility open in the first two, and then completely abandon it in the third, joining the ranks of the diehard "one of them has to be lying" people, as far as I can tell.-
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Which says the same thing Reck had been saying from the start of the argument. Was that post especially persuasive for some reason? Did silavor just not "get" the issue until then? (Plus he's back to saying misunderstanding is a possibility, given his town v. town comment).EmpTyger wrote: PO:
Did you read the context of what was happening in-thread between those 2 posts of silavor’s- which silavor even quoted when he said that?
That’s literally “what happened” between those posts. Reckoner stated that a misunderstanding was impossible.silavor wrote:
One of you is lying, and unlike you I'm not totally convinced you're the innocent one. Screaming at me isn't going to help.xRECKONERx wrote:
OH MY GOD IT'S LIKE DRMYSHOTTYIZSIK GAINED A VOCABULARY BUT RETAINED HIS IQsilvascum wrote:Then, of course, you leap straight off Haylen and on to Kise for what could very well be a total misunderstanding.
Read what I fucking said above about Kise. His entire goddamn case on me is built on this strong idea that he knew, BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT, that Iknewthe setup. That's a pretty DAMN STRONG PIECE OF EVIDENCE to be 'misremembering'. It's not even a misunderstanding - WE NEVER SPOKE ABOUT THE GAME PERIOD.
Considering Reck knee-jerk reacted, then took a day or three to reconsider the issue, not really. Both he AND Kise said "maybe it was just a misunderstanding" and dropped the matter as the basis of any accusations; what I see Reck mostly upset at is the fact people aren't dropping the matter on the say-so of the two players actually involved. (cf his ISO 58)Emp wrote:Now, do you see any similar incompatibility with Reckoner going “Kise must be lying because it can’t possibly be a misunderstanding” -> “It has to be a misunderstanding and anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron etc”?-
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We're completely missing people in the Haylen and Snake slots, too, with no sign of replacements.
Also,Unvote(ISOs, last 4 pages, arguing with Espy. If anyone's dying for more explanation I can give it.)
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Because dram has been taking too long to do this, and Reck seems to be under the misconception that you never said it:silavor wrote:Dram, could you please point out to me where I said reck was scummy?silavor ISO 8 wrote:Are you really that desperate for a lynch?silavor ISO 9 wrote:The point is, every one of your cases so far is based on a single piece of misinterpreted garbage, with the exception of Emp where you were just bandwagoning.I see nothing town about any of that.
You thought he was scummy and you said so. Which...uh...is fine and dandy and understandable, so I don't see the point in hairsplitting and saying you didn't.silavor ISO 12 wrote:Oh don't get me wrong, I've looked at your cases with impartial bias (well, except for Haylen's, because I already know she's town).Then I found you scummy for making them in the first place. Obviously I'm trying to show them as "why are you so desperate for a lynch," because being "desperate for a lynch" is synonymous with "being scum."-
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That you didn't do the ISOs and analysis that Baby Spice said you were going to do.Kcdaspot wrote:I took out the part about vezok... I answered questions what are you saying here?
^This.Mariyta wrote:Hey! Look who shows up when his name gets called!
1. I don't think you did.Kcdaspot wrote:1. read= past tense.
2. as far as total posts go they were in the middle of the pack. and I have not seen alot of halyen at the point but alot of silva... Silva: are you going to carry your slot by yourself?
3. little to no content. but that's the pot calling the kettle black there... so i'll let that go as is... lest i see something different.
should have something up by 3 pm here.
2. ...does that have anything to do with them possibly being scum? Plus an utterly meaningless question tacked on.
3. easy target, about the safest thing in the world to say. And "this guy isn't posting much"= the one thing someone who doesn't even try to read the thread but still needs to look like they're posting content can say.
There's not been an attempt at scumhunting from you in ages. After you backed off Reck, those were the only positions of yours I found to actually ASK you about. They're so vague its laughable, and it looks like the first one wasn't even a position, just commentary of posting frequency.
Your lover hasn't been doing much better recently.
Prod avoiding post on the 13th, last real content was on the 10th.Baby Spice wrote:Sorry for being absentia.
Life and such.
Have been trying to hold off judgment on some stuff until Pray and Nero posted again as well (and add snake's replacement to the list). And the earlier timing of his understanding of the thread correlating only with BS's presence still gives me a hell of a lot of pause. (It's null now, because if he's scum, they'll try to keep the pattern). But, ack. Zero scumhunting (combined with several attempts to LOOK like he's contributing), and his ISO 19.
Vote: kcdaspot-
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You can't do both?GreyICE wrote:Baby Spice, I want to say that you're right and you're town. I really, really, do. But kcdaspot has been setting off every one of the alarm bells in my head. I want to grill Llamarble/DBE, but you SNEEZE wrong and kcda gets scum everywhere.
Be bothered. Remove your damn self-vote and start playing.Baby Spice wrote:Maryita - Tragedy. "Lets lynch the lurker, but not the guy who hasn't posted in over a week" (There's more. Can't be bothered)
I have been holding out on kcdaspot for who knows how long. And I'm still going against my gut HARD to vote for you two, but EVERY DAMN THING KCDASPOT HAS BEEN DOING can be divided into apathetic-null and apathetic-scummy. You were something of a saving grace to him for a while, thenyoudropped off and were content to just sit and not scumhunt after giving an initial case. And kcda's posts and entrance today?? At some point I have to go "ok, I'm probably tunneling town on these guys." There's some pairs I'll die on a hill over today, but you guys aren't one of them, and kcda's most recent posts make it a hell of a lot more likely you're scum.-
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EmpTyger wrote:Now, do you see any similar incompatibility with Reckoner going “Kise must be lying because it can’t possibly be a misunderstanding” -> “It has to be a misunderstanding and anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron etc”?
I've thought a lot about this the past day or two. :/ Because backing down once it was evident that people were willing to accept an "it was all a misunderstanding" explanationEmpTyger wrote:And if you have a sequence of events that clarifies how everyone involved in this is innocent, I'd love to hear it. Until I hear an alternate explanation, I'm not going to dismiss the explanation I know would explain things: that someone involved is guilty.wouldbe a decently pragmatic move for scum versions of either of them.
The tl;dr version is that it comes down to whether you think Reck would call his friend an out-of-game liar to get ahead in this game. I've done some damn underhanded appeals to emotion as scum before, but I don't think I'd be able to do something as baldfacedly evil, with such possibly severe repercussions, as that. Yes, Reck had a lot of scum motivation to say what he did. But I'm willing to think it's more probable that Kise actually did talk with someone else, or even that Kise dreamed the whole damn thing, before I think Reck would slander a friend like that over a stupid game.
And if Reck's telling the truth about the AIM conversation, he's probably NOT scum. Though given some of the play this game, maybe someonecouldhave been on a scumteam and STILL not known there was a nightkill. At this point I'm actually willing to consider the possibility.
With Kise, I see no reason to lie about a conversation. But the fact he had it and talked about it doesn't meanhe'snot scum. So believe Kise is convinced he had the conversation...and that it means jack squat null.-
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@ Grey - I read a couple of his other games tonight to try to get some baseline read on him. And I seriously do not know how the heck to evaluate him. I'm thinking I may just have to ignore him like I do werewolf, and go by Baby Spice. Who HAS played quite town.
He managed to contribute more content and reads in those games than he's done here (think of him combined with vezok? with an occasional longer post thrown in), but I don't know whether to chalk up the difference to him being scum this round, or him shutting down because we were really hard on him.-
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And the fact he's staying makes a difference...why? Do you think it's because he's getting additional help? DO NOT UNDERSTAND.GreyICE wrote:
WUTSensFan wrote:Update: Kcdaspot is no longer being replaced.
VOTE: KCDASPOT
Only because we lynched one of the pairs that was discussing it, and everyone is trying to shut up the other one by yelling louder than him. I thought I could ignore the whole thing, but found I unfortunatelysilavor wrote:Discussing the reck/kise thing isn't gonna get us anywhere. I kinda thought we had come to a collective agreement about that.can't, because it is inextricably linked to Reck's alignment. Feel free to ignore any posts on the matter you want, but there's things I want to talk to Emp about.
Any thoughts on when you might be back? :/ My read on you guys has gone haywire, and the dearth of posts from your two slots hasn't helped pin it down.Kise wrote:Look, guys, I think after playing on mafiascum for nearly 2 years, I deserve to have a chance to chill out. So, I wanna post minimally... at least until I feel better.-
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And nowMariyta wrote:I love how you come after me when there are a shit-ton of people who have participated much less than me. Scumalicious. Oh, hey, look. Here comes his scumbuddy hopping on the wagon. Fun times. Alright. Let's do this. I've had a mild "gut" feeling about these two for awhile now, and since they want to play, I'm gonna play.
VOTE: Espyongaeagdlj
Kcda is probably just lazy. Llamarble/Darla are likely scum. And I'm thinking one of our replacements is probably scum, too.youagree with us kcda detractors too?
And yes, come out and play. Right now you're one of the pairs I've got no problem lynching today...unlike kcda/BS, who I'm having a hell of a lot of problems convincing myself to lynch. I was going to go with silavor/haylen last night, but Espy decided to finally show up after going AWOL on me for two days, and I'm down with his pick.
You guys were null to me day 1, and scummy day 2. Given that dagnabbit I think kcda/BS is probably town, and given how hard I'm finding it to come up with solid scumreads on ANYONE in this game, you win. Blame process of elimination.
On that note:
silavor/Haylen - Haylen had a scummy post or two; silavor is null. Fine with lynching.
kise/PP - null. lurky. Fine with lynching.
darla/llama - null. And where is Darla?? Fine with lynching.
dram/wolf - null. wolf has given fewer reads and less content that he did in the one other game I played with him, when he was town. Fine with lynching.-
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But lynching drammie means we get a more certain read on YOUR alignment.xRECKONERx wrote:@PO: But lynching werewolf involves lynching drammie
No, you just did the intro post. Still think that's a stupid case.xRECKONERx wrote:Didn't I already do that?
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It's her post #10 in the context of what preceded it.silavor wrote:PO-
Care to show me where Haylen was scummy, aside from herintro post?joking
Ignoring the @mod posts:
1 no content, no positions
2 no content, no positions
3 defensive
6 misses the point of the Reck/Kise debate
7 misses it again
8-9 a "hi I'm here" post
10 No positions and content all thread...and WHAT THE HELL KIND OF VOTE IS THIS?
11-12 replaces outVote Q51 for reasons other people have stated. There's definately not something right there and I could get behind his lynch today.
It's not much. But, again, scumreads have been hard to come by this thread.
Ummmm...and apparently I need to run a chronology of this thread again. Dammit, silavor. If you're scum, I have a darn good idea who your scumbuddies are, and I am not happy.-
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I'm loving every bit of this fallout. <3Mariyta wrote:
And don't you just love how Baby Spice jumped on the first wagon to pop up?xRECKONERx wrote:ITT Kcdaspot has to get Baby Spice to confirm his cases so he doesn't look even scummier
Town lovers wouldn't do that
Scum lovers, however, would
And are you agreeing with Reck's point?-
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I don't think it was a scumslip. I think it's just him going with the tighter and snappier version of a putdown comeback.
Compare: "I don't have to agree with my wife, and neither do you" vs. "I don't have to agree with my wife, and you don't have to agree with your lover." Which has more zing to it?-
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@Mod: err...can we get a replacement for the Haylen slot quickly? Thingyman would be nice too.
@ Emp:why are you reading spice/kcda and mariyta/tragedy as town?
...what? I'm confused. Is this a meta argument?llama wrote:Kcdspice actually look a bit less scummy now that Kcdtown appears capable of "Reck is scummy for opinion on X" without bothering to read X.-
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Certainly agree the vote looks opportunistic.Mariyta wrote:
Of course. Baby Spice took the reprieve given to her partner and jumped on the first wagon to form. I haven't had a read on her to this point, but her recent play is deliciously scumalicious.Purple Orange wrote:I'm loving every bit of this fallout. <3
And are you agreeing with Reck's point?
Do you agree with Reck that they also look scummy because kcda wants Baby Spice to look over his posts? *tries to phrase question more clearly*
Reck wrote:ITT Kcdaspot has to get Baby Spice to confirm his cases so he doesn't look even scummier
Town lovers wouldn't do that
Scum lovers, however, would-
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@ kcda - where is your case? Or did BS veto it?
@ mariyta - do you even attempt consistency?
@ Emp and silavor - I was wrong; there's a decently plausible way for Reck (and Nero) to be telling the truth about the IM stuff, and still be scum.
@ dram - um...yes. That was kind of the point. Scumreads have been hard to come by, and I've started going with process of elimination. Townread beats nullread.
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@ everyone else: where the heck ARE you? This is going nowhere fast. Nowhere slowly, either, for that matter. I was hoping we wouldn't need to resort to a damn consensus lynch and flip just to keep things moving, but maybe I was wrong.
Here. Here is what I am OK doing today. (If anyone wants more detailed reasons for any of these I will be happy to give them). What are you all OK doing?
PEOPLE I DO NOT WANT TO LYNCH TODAY
emp/thingy
vezok/misty
grey/anti
PEOPLE I AM FINE LYNCHING TODAY
Kise/PP
llama/darla
dram/werewolf
mariyta/traj
silv/haylen
PEOPLE I DO NOT WANT TO LYNCH BUT CAN RESIGN MYSELF TO LYNCHING SO THIS DARN GAME CAN MOVE FORWARD
kcda/spice
reck/nero-
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I gave you some links, too. I think they all go to the right place. :/Antihero wrote:Mari/Trag aren't lurkers, though. What's the cliffsnotes reasoning for them?
* Join both the kcda and umbrage wagons yesterday. (At 3/(traj stays off but maryita mentions agreement votes) and 8/9 votes, respectively. I think. sensfan has not been giving enough votecounts ).
* The Umbrage/q21 wagon. Even though they're giving reasons for their cases, like I'd been yelling at people to do, I find most of their reasons curd, and I feel like they're searching for a plausible excuse to hop on the Umbrage wagon. The first bit (reasons are crud) I can objectively argue about. The last bit (that they're searching for a reason to get on the wagon) I can't, but it's there every time I read it.
* Mariyta's positions on kcdaspice. Voting for them D1, to giving the benefit of the doubt Day 2, to jumping on them as soon as Ice says "let's lynch some lurkers!", and back to "kcda's just lazy" after a couple people have expressed reservations about the wagon. And now back to "oh they're scum, we should kill them." (The latest switchback I actually find understandable, however).
* Mariyta echoing any accusation that's brought up against people she's decided she wants to get lynched, even if there's evident inconsistencies with her previous positions. Like, say, "it would be good if kcda ran his stuff past BS, so that we don't do a mislynch over bad play," which turns into "a supporting reason that kcdaspice are scum is because kcda wants to run his stuff past BS" right after Reck says it's a reason they're scum. Or "oooh, I like this lurker lynch thing!" which turns into "oooh! trying to lynch lurkers is scummy!" right after Reck/Anti says it's a reason Espy/me are possibly scum.
* And on the lurker/easy target thing, since Mariyta wants to make a big deal about it: aside from Umbrage/q21, who that they only jumped on when the guys were buried under a mountain of votes, Mariyta/Traj's punching bags have been llama/darla and kcda/spice. And Mariyta risks coming after Espy/me, who she says she's had suspicion on (but never mentioned till now), only when she has nothing to lose. Because we already voted for them.
I admit I wasn't too sold on Espy's pick at first...he had a way scummier Day 1 read on them than me. But given the reaction to the pressure, I'd say he made a darn good call.-
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Antihero wrote:
Yeah, I agree. That's pretty weak.Reck wrote:So basically the people you want to lynch are the lurkers? Seriously?
Did you miss those pairs the first time I listed them or something?Kise wrote:I haven't said this before but what I would think (and just like Emp) is that the scum want to line up as many lynches as possible due to it only taking 2 lynches of their team to wipe them out. But still... you just listed 7 pairs you would lynch. It's pretty horrible if you don't narrow the list downbased on your OWN reads.
It's an attempted solution (probably quite poorly presented) to the "damn, scumreads are hard to find this game (and I can't get them lynched when I do have them)" problem that several people seem to be running into. We've seen DBE/llama lynch, a kcda/spice lynch, and very possibly this mariyta/traj lynch stall out. Scumhunting itself stalls for days at a time, and no one does anything -- maybe because they have nothing new to bring to the table? How do you break out of that?
Should an utter stalemate happen (again), because no one can get their favorite pairs lynched, and scumhunting stalls out,those pairs are the ones I'm currently OK seeing lynched, based on my last read of the thread. I have my preferred lynches out of those...LOOK AT WHERE MY VOTE IS, dammit. Look at where I've said I'd like to go for silv/haylen. But I'm not sure how picky I can afford to be. Sometimes a damn flip needs to happen before the game can actually move again. Think of it like a triage ranking or something.
Though it looks like that scenario has been staved off for now, which is by far my preferred solution.-
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No, actually. You post good content when you show up. I like you. I'd be sad to lose you.dramonic wrote:@PO: You want to lynch me because I don't have a whole lot of activity in the thread? Or do you actually have any form of reasoning that isn't policy?
It's your lover that makes me OK with killing you. I played with town-wolf in one of my first games here. He didn't post much, and he made a terse and bad case or two. But they made a crazy kind of coherent sense in his own mind, and golly he at least made them and took positions. (I supported his lynch because I thought he was overeager newb scum). This game? Well...maybe his ISO 6 counts??
I'm not entirely sure how to evaluate this. But you I read as a good poster who's null. Wolf I have as possible scum. So you made the list. :/ I don't think you're a terribly good lynch. But it's one I'm OK with.
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I've been OK lynching you as of a couple days ago, when I reread you as null instead of town. And when I hit a mafia discussion post talking about how you take notes as town, and act more on the fly and opportunistically as scum. (The fact you say you're not paying as much attention to this game as you usually do, though, I think skews pretty much anything I might be able to draw from that). I'd almost welcome you tunneling on me, because I might be able to get a better read on you. And why is PP taking two weeks to read and comment on this game??Kise wrote:Lol PO now wants to lynch me lollolo. If that entire lynch-list is made up of minimalist posters, I'm tunneling on PO. I haven't said this before but what I would think (and just like Emp) is that the scum want to line up as many lynches as possible due to it only taking 2 lynches of their team to wipe them out. But still... you just listed 7 pairs you would lynch. It's pretty horrible if you don't narrow the list downbased on your OWN reads.
In terms of lining up lynches, where does your "Reck-Nero-PO-Espy orgy" you've been pushing since the beginning of the game fall?
Because I think he's town? He's being damnedly contrary, he's taking initiative and acting vs. reacting, and he's willing to rock boats and make people pull their hair out because of stuff he believes is right. (Also, Thingy read town when he was here). There's a scenario or two in which I think Emp could be scum, but I'm not willing to go there unless other flips start indicating that possibility.Kise wrote:Why isn't Emp an option for you today?-
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Purple Orange Goon
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* Day 2 Grey = a Grey I recognize.EmpTyger wrote:PO:
Why are Grey/Antihero on your "don't want to lynch today" list?
* Kinder interpretation of Grey vs. Umbrage. I see why Grey went stupid-crazy on Umbrage's ass.
* Grey/Anti did more to keep things moving and cause people to post today than practically anyone else. This leans me to a town interpretation. I'm with llama that smashing things up (and potentially drawing negative attention to oneself in the process) is more town than not. You seem to think the scum are this organized force of doom trying to dominate the thread. I'm of the opinion that the scum are likely playing it safe and going with the flow.
Grey got crazy aggressive after being called out for (comparative) passiveness. Grey acts more like himself after I say he's not acting like himself. Unrelated coincidence or not, this naggles me, so IGMEOY and all that rot. But they're really the only things I have against the pair of them right now, when all's said and done. They're being townie enough to outweigh that. They're getting reactions out of people. I don't want them dead at this point.
I'd said it in 733 ("if Reck's telling the truth about the AIM conversation, he's probably NOT scum...however, blah blah sorta implausible theory about scum still managing to think there was a nightkill") and 779 ("I can't dismiss the matter because the IM conversation is inextricably linked to Reck's alignment"). Have changed my views on this matter, and wanted to make a note of that. (Nothing says Reck couldn't have looked at the role PMs/setup after the point at which Kise said this conversation happened. And saying, "I never looked at the role PMs/setup" is an understandable lie, unlike "liar, I never had that conversation you say we had.")EmpTyger wrote:
Not sure what you mean here? I mean, sure, but I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise.Purple Orange wrote:@ Emp and silavor - I was wrong; there's a decently plausible way for Reck (and Nero) to be telling the truth about the IM stuff, and still be scum.
I think there are people arguing that whether they told the truth has no relevance.
And there are people (well, me) arguing that someone is lying.-
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Purple Orange Goon
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I have. Disagree with your interp of llama's first posts, but they did safely sheep kcda yesterday. Agree that llama's posts the other day were about his first proactive bit of anything (though I think he brought up a new point or two against me and Espy way back when).Mariyta wrote:Except for this part. I've suspected Llamarble since the beginning and it has nothing to do with lurking. I've posted cases on him. Go read them. As for voting you/Esp, I've already answered that. No, I haven't gone to find the post(s) that I didn't like because I haven't had time. I hope to do it today.
And I know you've been at their throats since the beginning...congrats on the consistency. But can you make up your mind about DBE/Llama? Are they easy targets/lurkers or aren't they? I'd put them, meh, midrange, but as you ranked them with the lurkers/easy targets I figured I'd take you at your word.
I believe you when you say you've had a scummish read on us for a while, and that you need a bit of time to pull a case together. What I was pointing out was that you've gone after targets YOU rank as "easy" the whole game (well, ok,Iranked a piled Umbrage as easy), until maybe just now when you took a swipe at me/Espy. Right after we voted for you and you had nothing to lose, because we were already attacking you and drawing attention to you.
I even forgot to throw vezok on that earlier list of your targets.Mariyta wrote:As scum, you want to take out town, and it's easier to do that if you go after targets that won't fight back as hard. The three I listed would rip them a new one. (I have my doubts about the sure townieness of one of those teams, but I haven't decided if it's a valid doubt yet, so I'll refrain from arguing that point.)
Have you actually been watching Grey/Anti? They stubbornly refused to rip me anything. They rolled their eyes and ignored me and did townie stuff and told me to do my homework, until I had to go, "yeeeeeah...they're still possibly scum based on these two particular juxtapositions of events, but even in the midst of weak cases, that's areallyweak case, and there's a lot pointing the other way. Dammit, for now they're town."
I dunno what Reck would do, though he's been flipping out on anyone that's called him scum. Will probably find out in the near future.-
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Purple Orange Goon
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So it was the "if one's innocent the other is guilty" deal that that bothered you? And...um...the sheer numbers of mine?Kise wrote:
Well, dear, it's only proper to want to lynch 4 players that you feel share a scum QT. As opposed to, you know, your 14 player lynch-list.Purple Orange wrote:In terms of lining up lynches, where does your "Reck-Nero-PO-Espy orgy" you've been pushing since the beginning of the game fall?
So...minority action = mafia? "I'm doing this and I'm town, therefore everyone who acts like me is town?" What kind of reasoning is THAT?Kise wrote:If the majority of players are inactive, then the majority are obviously town. I have fallen into the inactive category so mycurrentline of thinking is that townies are somewhere in the 90's% range of those other inactives... if not 100%.
I mean, mine might not be much better, but it's more along the lines of: The mafia will be trying to blend in with the town. They try to do what the majority of the town is doing, or they'll stand out and get noticed and die. When town's active, they need to be active, even though lurking is usually more in their interests. When the town is coasting along doing nothing...golly, guess what? They can go coast along doing nothing, draw no attention to themselves, and blend right in, and survive.
Are you saying that because they're in a 4-person QT, they'll have more motivation to stick around, and thus will be less likely to go completely inactive and replace out?ThatI can understand, and may have to think about.
Of course I know that. You guys are the ones putting words in my mouth saying that I'm going after peopleKise wrote: Purp, I'm not sure how long you've consistently played mafia, but I know better that lurkers and people who barely contribute (or fail to contribute completely: werewolf) are NOT always scum. It's a matter of you actually attempting to figure out why each player would do certain actions as both town and scum, then take note of it, then weigh which of the two viewpoints reads stronger compared with interactions of other players - This, instead of lynching minimal players in lazy fashion.because they're lurking. PP is the only person I said I'd be willing to lynch for his lurking, and that was because of the insane lengths of it....which I think scum would be more likely to do than town, if they were happily not under suspicion.
When someone posts fewer posts, it often makes it harder for me to read them, though I've tried my best. And again, I'm also currently of the "scum are probably lazy and going with the flow" school of thought, not the "scum are acting as an organized force of doom" school of thought. Any correlation between lurkiness and people I'm ok lynching will be based on those factors. If it looks like conscious and deliberate lurker hunting, fine, it looks like conscious and deliberate lurker hunting. There's not much I can do about that.-
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Purple Orange Goon
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The fact that the way they lined up lynches wasn't by saying, "if pair A flips scum, pair B is scum," but by saying "if pair A flipsKise wrote:What do you mean "one's innocent the other's guilty?" I does not compute, but if this is an attempt to confuse/frustrate me, it's not working.town, pair B is scum."
Err...because right now none of ours have flipped anything, so all I can do is try to have you reconsider and reshuffle your mafia assignments while the cards are all still face down. And because I wanted you to talk more about your line of thought, because that part of it made no sense to me at all.Kise wrote:Mine. Rather than dispel me from my line of thought, why not ask how I'd reevaluate things if my suspects flipped town? 'Course you wouldn't ask such a thing.
The more you talk, the more you have a chance to say something that's scummy and entangle yourselves with your scumbuddies. The more you talk, the more attention and by implication scrutiny you draw to yourself. And there's the majority/minority thing -- the more you look different from other people, the more likely you are to be associated with the minority group of the game, aka the mafia. The last one is something I've seen happen time and again, usually on a more unconscious level, because consciously it doesn't make sense.Kise wrote:There's no cops, so mafia can draw as much attention to themselves as they want. And if this is how mafia is playing according to you, then who are the scum that are blending in?
Um...how about the people I'm voting for, for one? silavor/haylen are another decent bet. The rest? I don't know. A lot is up in the ether until we get another flip or two. It's been more useful to me as a way to knock people onto a probably-town list than to confirm scum.
The fact that pretty much everyone seems to be lazy this round? And that it's more pragmatic for the scum to post less and go with the flow.Kise wrote:What led you to think scum are lazy, again?-
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Purple Orange Goon
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Not sure how long he's held the "it's better to go after one scummy person and get a lynch, than to go after a bunch at once." But the answer he gave me I think fits his actions today.EmpTyger wrote:PO:
But that's not what Grey's been doing today. He's been doing the opposite. See my [742].
Still thinking about this. But when I look at the day, I see the "ok, if no one's going to bother, let's lynch a lurker" as a catalyst for a hell of a lot of stuff, and it fits with his willingness to lynch kcda from the start of the day. There's also the back and forth with dram, and Anti's contributions.-
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Purple Orange Goon
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Well, given my awesome gutread skillz, which now stand at something like 0 for 7...Grey/Anti, Emp/thingy, and vezok/whoever are obviously the final scumpairs?
I see the argument...it's just that if Emp is scum, I think he's darn organized and on top of it scum. Like he seems to think the scum teams are. And he's about the LAST person I can see letting kcda flounder around so badly. Plus it's hard reversing my top townread from yesterday.
So...yeah.
vote: silavor
First, because the case is decent enough on its own merits; the team has done nothing proactive for the whole thread. Coasting, echoing popular trends, and defensiveness. silavor says that even the exchange with reck was just an outgrowth of him defending Haylen.
Secondly...links to kcda/Spice. Not the Baby Spice lover thing...people are right that Haylen talked about it in the signup thread. It's the fact that kcda's variety of confusion about the Reck/Kise matter ("it's just a stupid personal issue and personal issues should be kept out of the game") parallels Haylen's, and quite closely. Compare Haylen's ISO 6 and 7 with kcdaspot's ISOs 9, 10, 12, 16, 17. It's a distinctive parallel; they're the only players to exhibit this flavor of opinion.
The main reason I dismissed a kcda/BS/silavor/haylen theory TWICE yesterday, after seeing this, was because silavor had a head on his shoulders and seemed to grasp things, and I thought he would have stepped in to help kcda by the time kcda got around to posting about the matter. That...evidently didn't happen, though.-
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Purple Orange Goon
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They = Emp/Thingy. Whom you called scum for trying to line up a lynch of the "If Reck flips town, Kise is scum" variety.Kise wrote:Yeah, I think you're trying to confuse me. Who arethey? We're only talking about you and me here.
Of course I want you to change your opinion if your opinion is wrong. I'd rather have scum flapjacks today over town flapjacks. Can at least see where you're coming from now, though, and it's not as nonsensical as your first post made it sound to me. (How are you defining "inactive"?)Purple Orange wrote:No need to reshuffle when I need to get my suspects flipped over like flapjacks. I'm thinking you're fighting to get me to change my opinion hard; calling it nonsensical and the likes. I gave you a chance by saying I only think about 90% of the inactive players were town, but that's not good enough to accept, eh.
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Reck said dram likes to bus right out of the gate. So if dram defended kcdaspice day 1, they probably aren't teamed scum.Llamarble wrote:I'd say if somebody bussed it was most likely weredram (defended KCD d1 & didn't Reck mention something about Dram loving to bus?) or Kise (late on waggy).
And I need to think about who I think the other team is.
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Um...GreyICE wrote:P.S. If we flip their scumpartner, you're not the scumpartner anymore, and then you're town!-
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Purple Orange Goon
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@ Nero: Espy went after kcda right out of the starting gate. He later unvoted kcda on Feb 6, the day after posting what you quoted above. And the day afterNero Cain wrote:
But he failed to vote um/21 when the wagon was up and instead sat on KCD but when Kcd/BS wagon was getting votes he instead started a counter wagon on Mari.Espeonage wrote: Two biggest scumpairs:
kcd/BS and umbridge/q21
So that looks like distancing to me.that(Feb 7), we both went over to Grey/Anti, where we then hung out (or went voteless) until going after Mariyta/Traj. (I did a wobbly stint on kcda from Feb 15 to 17th, between my Grey and Mari votes). Make of our actions what you will...at least get the basic facts and chronology correct, though.
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@ Tragedy: That last quote of Espy's is him talking about Reck's case on Haylen. It's not about you/Mari or kcdaspice. So not sure what you're trying to say with it.-
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Purple Orange Goon
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Purple Orange Goon
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...damn, you're right.Llamarble wrote:but Haylen mentioning the BS joke actually makes me think she's less likely the culprit.
Still think the other stuff outweighs it...willing to chalk this up to momentum of the signup thread joke carrying through, or actual forgetting. But, graaaaah. It does make it less locktight.
From scum who just got back from a longish V/LA, making a frustrated post...I actually can see it. I doubt he consciously thought BS was his lover. But I do think a BS connection was strong enough in his mind for him to slip and use her over Haylen, and I don't think that our talk about BS in the thread itself was the (only) reason it was this strong in his mind.GreyICE wrote:Ugh, he's almost certainly town.
Scumslips like this just never really seem to come from scum
Grey wrote:Welp, folks, anyone have a good feeling about our friend Silvador anyway?
Vote: Silvador
He almost got lynched yesterday anyway.
Um...no he didn't? Where are you getting this? I think Reck might have voted for him once, but otherwise, it's been pretty much me, myself, and I voting for the guy until today.Grey wrote:We have one who had a halfway decent wagon run up against them,
Why do you find Grey Ice town now?vezok wrote:The other people I find town for now. Even GreyICE.-
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Purple Orange Goon
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Err...so you don't think one of them HAS to be lying anymore? That's a pretty big switch of opinion for you. What changed your mind here?EmpTyger wrote:Reckoner:
When I just reevaluated after rereading all 40+ pages. I still have issues with the AIMlog matter, I'll admit. But my main point of contention was my general point about how your playstyle was hampering the town's ability to lynch an antitown. And that just got shown to be demonstrably false. I don't see how you can be mafia, and I have a lot higher suspects for werewolf.-
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Purple Orange Goon
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