/in-vitational 12: Mafia in #YOLOville - All wrapped up!

[Tammy]

Don't expect too much from me this week. Got a busy week and an interview to prepare for. Actual *effort* probably won't happen until Friday/Saturday.

VOTE: CES

[Tammy]

Empire is town...most likely. I'll be able to tell for sure after an effort post, but first thought is he would be too self-conscious to call himself obvtown, especially in a game with me and tierce and regfan waiting to replace in if necessary. And I doubt he'd bother to be posting in between classes as scum, he'd be far more likely to just put it off.

[Tammy]

Don't expect too much from me this week. Got a busy week and an interview to prepare for. Actual *effort* probably won't happen until Friday/Saturday.

Timing? I had a few minutes and read the person that is easiest for me to read.

[Tammy]

Yes, timing.

Also, the read you gave was very lazy. Considering what I've seen of TownTammy/Blue, color me underwhelmed.

Well, I'll *try* to coordinate whatever few minutes I have here and there this week to fit some better timing according to your schedule for what seems appropriate or I'll continue to post when I have the time.

The read I gave probably was lazy. I know how I read empire, and I probably wouldn't explain it under normal circumstances but some people think he's scum for some reason, so I explained it as best I can for how I read empire.

And I really don't want to hear about what you expect from towntammy. I was very upfront about how little I'd be able to give to this game this week. If this weekend comes around and I haven't given what you expect from town Tammy complain to me then. (hint: you won't have to...I'm town)

[Tammy]

Dodging the prod.

My interview is tomorrow (wish me luck!) after which time I'll be free to provide actual content, and you can go "look how town Tammy is!". Hopefully vi won't call me boring again, though. Don't mind me I'm simultaneously a ball of nerves and in a silly mood, wish I had time to play but etc.

I was going to ask ces why he hadn't commented on llamarble but then saw him starting to question him so I'm interested in his thoughts on that.

[Tammy]

VOTE: johhog

He feels flaccid.

[Tammy]

Does Tammy normally overreact like this?

Yes. And ces I'm [/s]rarely[/s] never mean.

I wasn't meaning to overreact. I didnt know what you meant by timing. The game itself started on a bad day for me, that's why I was upfront about it. I knew I wouldn't be able to deliver what half the people here would expect from me, and didn't want to deal with accusations of not acting like myself as I knew the week would be stressful enough for me as it was. I had a little time and tried to read the thread, but really couldn't concentrate, and went fuck it I'll just read empire because that requires no paying attention.

I agreed it was a lazy read and part of that was because I skimmed his actual content, but I wanted to do something in the game and not be completely useless for nearly a week. I still stand by the reasoning for the read as I feel pretty capable of reading him and have what markers I would look for.

But basically I have a tendency when town to react badly to

negative attention

someone saying I'm not doing what is expected of me especially when my nerves have been on edge like they were this week.

[Tammy]

Elaborate.

Well hi! That was a fast catch. In the last two games we've played together where you've been town, you've felt really dynamic. Here you feel like your watching the party more than enjoying it. I'm only on page 3...4...do you get better?

[Tammy]

Tierce is town. I'm getting better at this.

[Tammy]

Empire is super town

/easy read

[Tammy]

I'm not. I also couldn't care less that you think that. Pretty confident in this read.

I generally approve of this sort of behavior, but for some reason this gave me a scumping.
The gratuitousness of the "I couldn't care less" bit probably has something to do with it.

VOTE: Konowa

Okay, I know that llamarble has been getting some flack, but I felt goodrich from him on this post. I had the same knee jerk reaction to konowas post, and I realize this is an easy thing to point out, but it made me feel all warm and cozy that someone was thinking along the same lines as me.

[Tammy]

Ahem.

If you brag about having such a flawless scum game you might be an easy read too.

[Tammy]

*if you didn't brag...I'm really tired.

[Tammy]

I'm half inclined to actually do something with my vote, but I don't want penguin_alien to escape by just lurking so this was a completely unnecessary post.

See this is more of what I noticed early on. Why didn't you comment on anything? There's nothing wrong with leaving your vote on penguin, but nothing else worth commenting on?

[Tammy]

Empire is town...most likely. I'll be able to tell for sure after an effort post, but first thought is he would be too self-conscious to call himself obvtown, especially in a game with me and tierce and regfan waiting to replace in if necessary. And I doubt he'd bother to be posting in between classes as scum, he'd be far more likely to just put it off.

this is a little ridiculous
a little arrogant
a little town

What me arrogant ? No, but seriously. Empire and I are friends and we hydra. Tierce and empire are friends and they hydra and she's caught him as scum. Regfan and empire are really good friends. Empire is probably easier to read than i am. Therefore there's a level of self-consciousness I would expect from him if he were scum. Would he joke around and call himself obvtown? Maybe, but the way he did it seemed natural. He also really hates being scum, probably even more than I do, so if he's catching up between classes of a day when I know he has a long schedule, the likelihood that he's town is really high. As scum, he really just wouldn't care.

[Tammy]

Post 161 has me leaving town on deasvail. I'm not that confident in my ability to read deas though. I read him wrong in mafia stuck and in ny 160b until the very end. But he's giving me the same feeling as he did in ny146 where I read him correctly. Empire is decent at reading him so I'll rely on that. Konowa knows how to read him to, so I'll be interested in his thoughts on that.

Also, sorry for the spam. Multiquoting is impossible on my iPad and I don't feel like sitting at my computer.

[Tammy]

I lost a lot of my confidence after Castle Zar: even though I correctly nailed all three scum via a 5 person PoE list, I ended up lynching the two townies in that group which led me to second guess everything pretty hardcore.

And yet you still won.

Keep repeating this mantra to him. Along with he had all scum in his scum pool. He's supposed to be the decisive one in our hydra, and keep my waffling self in check when we're not.

[Tammy]

Fair enough, I wouldn't trust me either.

Actually though, that probably makes you town.

[Tammy]

I was getting a little nervous about ces because he didn't seem to be interested in llamarble at all at first. I remember from team mafia, him catching marble pretty early (I replaced in another game and remember it as early anyway), and then in abarat he pushed him immediately, so him not really taking an interest here threw me off. Anyway, ces is difficult to read and I won't even pretend that I can get a read on him this early in a game, but I feel all right about him right now.

[Tammy]

And llamarble is reacting exactly like I remember him reacting in abarat when run up. Basically, "if you guys would just leave me alone and let me towninate myself I'd do so, but you keep irritating me and asking me to repeat myself so I just can't".

So, that and his feeling like I did on konowa's first post makes me feel town, but ces can read him right? Am I on crack?

[Tammy]

I don't understand the penguin wagon and I refuse to respond to it.

By the way, what's usual scum-numbers for a 16 player game?

This feels like a fake dumb tell, especially considering you were in ny160 which had 15 people with a 3 person scum team and an sk.

And have you made any game relevant commentary yet? I don't remember anything you've said. Not a good sign.

[Tammy]

Empire your stil voting llamarble? Why not johhog?

[Tammy]

I can understand both the Llama and Johhog wagons, but I dunno - Nacho is always scum.

You say you read ny160b (which some at the end of the game said was underpowered anyway) and still say nacho is always scum?

I mean that's fine for an rvs vote, but 10 pages in?

[Tammy]

I will happily vote for johhog (why aren't more of you?), N, or maybe penguin alien right now.

Ces what's your read on crash text dummie?

[Tammy]

I can understand both the Llama and Johhog wagons, but I dunno - Nacho is always scum.

You say you read ny160b (which some at the end of the game said was underpowered anyway) and still say nacho is always scum?

I mean that's fine for an rvs vote, but 10 pages in?

I should have made that clearer: he's always scum in games with me.

And rather than try to analyze his content you're going to try to coast on that.

Kind of like wickedest who keeps showing up at the bottom of the screen (shadowe too) and not posting?

[Tammy]

You say you read ny160b (which some at the end of the game said was underpowered anyway) and still say nacho is always scum?

I mean that's fine for an rvs vote, but 10 pages in?

wait you actually believe him when he says things like this?

No. That's why I called it a potential dumb tell that felt fake, and that it was a fine excuse for an rvs vote, but not 10 pages in.

I think N is a fine place for a vote today...johhog is better though.

[Tammy]

Can you guys stop flirting?

[Tammy]

Elaborate.

Well hi! That was a fast catch. In the last two games we've played together where you've been town, you've felt really dynamic. Here you feel like your watching the party more than enjoying it. I'm only on page 3...4...do you get better?

I'm aware of this. But think this one through. Does me playing differently necessarily mean that I'm scum?

No, but it's enough for me to push further. And even if I'd never played with you before, I'd still find the standing at the sidelines suspect.

[Tammy]

Back to N for a moment:

Tierceflail

What is this? N has seen me as Town and as scum, he has been my scumbuddy, and this is all he has to say about me so far. I ask him for reads, he gives an empty Nacho read and doesn't do anything else. It's hollow, doesn't have any meat, and doesn't feel like the Town-N-pissed-off-at-the-game in general that I know and love. THAT N is participative, throws his weight behind what he believes in, does stuff. This feels much closer to the lurkerscum N that occasionally snipes in with a pretense at weak commentary.

Aw, I didn't know you cared.

I've noticed in quite a few of my games I've alienated people and gotten myself mislynched, so I'm trying a new thing. I'm not sure what you're exactly expecting from me (have you gotten my meta mixed up with someone else's?), but I can go through the whole thread and make snarky comments if you'd like?

The I didn't know you cared reads fake.

As someone who gets asked to tone down my snark oftens, I'd much appreciate it if you did.

[Tammy]

When tierce and konowa post back to back my brain does a double take.

[Tammy]

Tammy, is it only Johhog's passivity that's making you think he's scum, or is there something more specific in his posting?

His passivity. He feels off, and that's enough for me right now. We'll see how he proceeds.

[Tammy]

Tammy mentioned I can read DV? Don't know how much this is true? Twice you've said this. I think I have a couple markers for DV as Scum, don't know how reliable they are outside of normal Scum markers. If you are relying on Zar, I would question why you think I can read DV?

Yes, it comes from zar because end game you said this. You caught dv and are a big reason why we lynched him correctly that day.

I prett much suck at reading dv. I thought he was scum for a good portion of the game in mafia stuck, and thought he was town in zar. In fact, I had proposed and alternative to the dv wagon in zar, and if anyone would have listened to me we would have mislynched that day, but your interaction with him, knowing why he was scum, is what sold me in the end.

So yes, in my eyes you are capable of reading dv - at least better than me - so I'm interested in your thoughts on the matter. I'm not saying I expect you to be right early day one or anything as I remember you town reading him day one in that game too.

[Tammy]

When tierce and konowa post back to back my brain does a double take.

My hellnix is far prettier than the red giant above a forest or whatever

that

is. Plus, I'm Town. (>")>

the read registers in my periphery but the tone doesn't match. Makes me go huh?

---------

I've chuckled a few times when reading ces' posts. Does that mean he's town telling?

I have to get some work done, I'll finish catching up later.

[Tammy]

* and by read I mean red. I swear I know how to spell.

[Tammy]

I don't think that Shadoweh is really all that easy to read early game, and if she's scum it should start becoming evident in a couple days. But, my first thought is Post 328 followed up by Post 329 comes from town. Her arguments against CTD look natural enough; I don't have any particular thoughts on CTD though, so I'll look back at that later.

[Tammy]

Tammy are you ignoring me on purpose stop it. One liners from you are weird even if they're in post chains.

I wasn't ignoring you? I mentioned that I saw you at the bottom of the screen not posting because I wanted you to come post so I could feel something about your alignment.

I don't know why one liners are weird from me? They're actually quite standard from me, especially when I'm catching up and commenting as I go along. I don't wall all the time; I think I've even gone a game or two without any walls. (Besides the length of my posts is not alignment indicative; it's mood indicative. I'm quite capable of walling as scum.)

[Tammy]

Tammy usually posts huge blocks of

angry text

insights into how she feels about a person so one-liners that don't sound mad are strange. Also telling N to unsnark when compared to his other games he's not snarking. I would prefer he try to show some sort of personal opinion. I would imagine you want him to try and give out real opinions too, especially if he is scum.

But I don't though? I mean sometimes, but I really sound mad all the time. I'm sure I'm not mad every game.

As far as the N remark, maybe I worded that badly. I was asking him to snark. The person I was referring to who has had people request to tone down the snark was me. I like it when others snark.

i also like it when others throw fits and be theatric, makes me feel better

[Tammy]

@Tammy:

Echoing Shadoweh's sentinments, I'm not getting the super warm and fuzzy townie vibes from your posts but I know you've said you sometimes struggle on D1. Please towninate, too.

But I already have towninated? I don't know why you don't get warm and fuzzy thoughts from my posts as I think anyone who could easily read me should be able to decipher that I'm town. I don't even think I'm struggling. Why would you get that? I'm not going to write some big rambling wall so that you can say okay that's town when it should be clear to you that my thought process about this game is natural. I'm sure that will come in time when I have a chance to look back at people's arguments, but I'm not going to play counter to what feels natural to me.

[Tammy]

No, I mean when I get a chance to actually read back, which will not be today, I'll look back at the arguments. There's several I need to look back at: yours with CTD and Tierce and Konowa. And I feel like there's something else I'm forgetting.

I'm just short on time at the moment, and am trying to keep afloat.

That I don't feel comfortable reading you doesn't mean I don't want to try. I mean I'd wager town right now but I've lost my money before on that one. >_>

[Tammy]

Shadoweh, CTD is still kind of null. Maybe a little scummy, but reading his posts it's like "This tells me nothing about your alignment. WHHHHYYYYY?"

I'm going to go with leaning town on N. Following his success in NY 160, I'd expect him to be more motivated as scum with this kind of playerlist (he knows that he can fool good players) and try harder to look town. Compared to here, he was just a lot more pro-town there, and that's more the kind of thing I'd expect. I don't think the reasons behind the wagon are all that bad, I just don't really agree.

But, do you think scum N would feel that way here? He's been scum partners with Vi and Tierce and has been caught as scum by Empire and I. I imagine the playerlist could feel a bit intimidating to him too. So, his not doing anything here is definitely alarming.

[Tammy]

The Vi wagon is meh. I think it looks like normal Vi. I prefer this one.

VOTE: Cogito Ergo Sum

Playing very differently from Team Mafia, where he was town.

I vote Johhog and say it's partly because he feels different from when he was town.

He says there could be a reason for that.

Votes someone else for the same reason. >_>

[Tammy]

Tammy, why are you such a NEGATIVE NANCY?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Tammy]

So yes, in my eyes you are capable of reading dv - at least better than me - so I'm interested in your thoughts on the matter. I'm not saying I expect you to be right early day one or anything as I remember you town reading him day one in that game too.

You want him(konowa) to give reads on dv... yet yield its too soon to give a proper read.

And one game reading someone correctly = good at reading them?

I want his thoughts on DV yes. Am I applying a burden of proficiency on his read on day one? No. But I'd still like his thoughts. Besides how someone evolves their read on someone, especially someone they feel capable of reading, is often helpful in reading that person too.

No, I'm going by his statement that I linked that he said he felt like he knew how to read DV scum now. When someone says they know how to read someone, I'm always interested in their thoughts, especially when it's on someone I've read wrong a couple times.

[Tammy]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Well part of that is me trolling but the other part of that is that you seem to be in a pretty shitty mood this game and I have no idea why.

I'm not. I feel in a pretty good mood, just rather frazzled because I have several things going on and not a whole lot of time.

Are you trying to annoy me to see what reaction I will give, because that's what this feels like.

[Tammy]

I'm not. I feel in a pretty good mood, just rather frazzled because I have several things going on and not a whole lot of time.

Are you trying to annoy me to see what reaction I will give, because that's what this feels like.

No, I don't do any of this soft-trolling shit. You know I'd be coming at you harder than that if I was trying to frustrate you into towntelling (and believe me, I have more than enough ammo to do so).

What's your read on CES and am I right about #382?

Bring it, bro. You don't have any ammunition against me, because I'm town. If it's meta-based do your research, you will see plenty of town games, here and at Westeros, that this is the exact approach I take on day one.

If you have a problem with any of my thoughts, point them out. I don't know where you're getting my shitty mood from.

If you have read me and you have ammo, why are you asking for my read on ces? I've already said that I feel all right about him right now but that he's hard to read, and wondered if me laughing at some of his posts is him town telling. I have no clue if that's a town tell in that post.

[Tammy]

Don't prod me! The thing that has been taking up the majority of my free time just ended a couple hours ago. I'll get my head in this game soon. Maybe tonight, probably tomorrow. I have work to get done first and I'm tired.

CES - How did you know I woke up this morning and thought to myself I'd just start sheeping you?

[Tammy]

Okay almost caught up looking at the arguments I said I would, but I've got a date with a swimming pool in the morning and will mull this over during laps.

Quickly though. Shadoweh, I don't think it's fair to use open 463 against empire for non waffle ness. We were a hydra in that game and both had some pretty strong reads we felt confident in and I'm sure that helped to bolster each other. Plus someone has to make up for my waffliness . But if you look at castle zar you'll see him having trouble even though he was right. (I feel bad I think I've rubbed off on him some, so it's probably my fault).

Wickedest - I ont think shadoweh was looking to back out of a read on tierce in Post 50. That's more of a comment on the fact that she tends to read tierce as town even when she's not.

Empire - ill read through white flag tomorrow. I forgot johhog was in it, but was going to reread through it anyway for llamarble and nacho.

Shadoweh - why did you move your vote off of ctd just about the time it looked like it was picking up?

Okay, that's all I think I wanted to quickly address. I have other things I want to talk about but tomorrow not *sleep*

[Tammy]

Tammy, the hot date with Big Blue should be over by now--thoughts on the wagons?

I had several dates today! The pool, my job, then my dissertation, which unfortunately is not about mafia so playing mafia doesn't ensure I can defend next month. Yes, I take every opportunity to complain about this monster.

So patience it's coming; I just got home.

Oh, shhh... don't tell mafia; he's the only one that thinks there's no other.

[Tammy]

Primadonna girl, yeah.
All I ever wanted was the world
I can't help that I need it all
The primadonna life, the rise, the fall

Dude. Stop stealing my songs.

[Tammy]

Okay, you know what this game is kind of difficult. It seems as if almost everyone has someone they don't want lynched today for personal reasons, and it makes us all seem like primadonnas.

click on the link, have a good dance, then read my post it will seem much more awesome that way!

Okay, Vi. I really don't know what to think. Vi doesn't feel like town, but I have no clue how to read Vi at all. In Castle Zar, I read him as town partly because his thought on directing the vig was matching my own which was truthfully not alignment indicative but it gave me a gut good feeling about him. Here, I really don't have anything. I'd like to trust CES and his judgment, but I don't feel confident at all in my read on CES. I *think* he's town here, but he revoked my membership in the "I can read CES" club months ago, so I'm all hrm. Anyway reasoning for why Vi should be a wagon would be nice. I know CES can give reasons when he really wants to, and I'm not looking for a wall, but something besides I should sheep him would be nice.

As far as CTD goes, meh. Don't feel like going there, and part of this is because I have a working town read on CES and he's got opposition to the wagon. And if he is town, his manner of scumhunting seems thorough and would be helpful, but I don't have any real reason to believe he's town right now. The only real reason why I would go there is because I actually agree with Wicked that when reading the CTD/Shadoweh back and forth for a second time it felt like distancing. I think Wicked is likely town too right now just because his thoughts on that matched my own.

I'm narcissistic that way

On my first read through of their argument I thought Shadoweh felt really natural, and she does, almost too so. Makes me paranoid just how great she feels about her case so early. Other than their back and forth making me feel prickly, Shadoweh seems townish, but I *still* don't like that she jumped off of CTD and onto penguin right after N voted CTD and made the wagon equal with Penguin. N's vote in Post 504 made the CTD wagon equal with Penguin's, and Shadoweh's jump off the wagon onto Penguin in Post 512 made Penguin in the lead. It feels icky. I'd understand it if their back and forth made her think he was town, but that doesn't seem to be the case so I'm left feeling hrm about it.

I don't know why more of you don't see how suspicious Johhog is. Empire, I re-read through his play and he still feels different than he does in either of the games I played with him. He just really feels like he's sitting in the background with everything he posts. His votes have been pretty meh this game. I still can't understand his vote on CES for not playing the same or his response to me that my response was facepalm worthy. I did, however, facepalm at his vote. >_> It's not about

playing

differently. Most people don't play the same way every game. I know I don't, but it's about feeling different. Johhog doesn't feel like the player I killed night one in Rocky Horror over the people who actually knew my meta and would be able to catch me easy peasy because I thought he was a dangerous player. He feels disengaged at a level that rings suspicious to me, and I'm not understanding how anyone reads that as town. His Wickedest so town it burns in Post 549 feels fake as does his reasoning to get on the CTD wagon. I mean I don't have a secure read on CTD, but I don't characterize him as someone who's trying to stay out of the limelight. It's also hypocritical in a really weird way considering that my problem with Johhog's play has been pretty passive and engineered to stay out of focus. I know he said there could be a reason for that. And if it's role-related, dude needs to get over it. As Tierce said earlier the NK list should be interesting with this playerlist, so as far as I'm concerned holding back for any reason is unnecessary in this game.

I'll still be willing to vote N if noone wants to come to Johhog and if CES or Benmage don't convince me on Vi and it doesn't take off. His iso is atrocious. I don't get the "oh I'm aggressive and alienating and it causes me to get mislynched so I'm not going to scumhunt" attitude. Like HI! I have a tendency to be aggressive and have had DGB of all people replace out of a game because I was "badgering" her for reads and I haven't been mislynched for it, so I just think "huh" maybe it's for something else. Plus, I remember in Black Flag him not really doing anything as scum. He went for a really easy target early day one in Piggy then pretty much faded into the background and didn't do anything, except for as Empire mentions fighting with another easy target in JesseSheffield, so his passivity here doesn't impress me at all. Nor does it that he did well in NY160. I don't like his "I don't know how big the scum team is" as this feels like a fake dumb tell. He also committed one of my favorite scum tells, in as much as I believe in scum tells, in Post 407. I did have this happen to me once. I wrote a whole wall of reads in marketplace mafia, but I was on my ipad and accidentally hit the "x" instead of the tab and had to rewrite the entire thing. However, every time that I can remember someone claiming to have just written a big huge post that got eaten and they weren't going to rewrite it, it's been scum. He's commenting on really trivial things. And Empire, just so you know, one of us was *-* close to having to replace out after I read Post 504. My knee jerk reaction was to talk to you on aim about how ridiculous it was that he thinks you're scum. It just really speaks to the fact that I can't follow N's thought process at all. But, it's probably because it's just not a town thought process.

I'd also be willing to jump on the penguinalien wagon, but I don't know how fair this is. I feel like she writes a lot of words but says very little. Shaddup I'm hypocrates. Her question to me in Post 291 felt really throw away. As if she wanted to be seen commenting on a wide variety of things but didn't have really any interest in it. I don't remember her following up on my answer at all. Also, hate hate her characterization of Deasvail's Post 24 as emphatic. (I realize Empire characterized it in a similar way, but he's town so meh) But, I didn't see it as emphatic or overeager or anything like that, just seemed like a regular post to me, so the interpretation just hits me as off. Likewise, her question to N in Post 508 feels throwaway. Her posts seem reasonable, but eh.

I'd be willing to join the N wagon before the penguin wagon though.

Town reads are: Empire, Tierce, Wicked, and DV. I'd like to believe CES and Benmage are town too.

Oh and I still need to read through TM White Flag for Llamarble and Nacho. I still think Llamarble is townish but... And as far as the Konowa/Tierce thing, idk I don't see Konowa's response as a big thing. (oh and Konowa, Empire is referring to my reaction to NS in Castle Zar not DGB) Konowa's reaction seems rather natural, but I'm not a really accurate reader of Konowa so we'll see as the days progress.

Sorry for the wall

[Tammy]

Oh yeah,

Vi

, what do you think about the votes on you and the people voting you? (I would normally ask how you feel about them, but I don't think acute/obtuse/right angles feel...they seem more like thinkers to me, so.)

[Tammy]

He also committed one of my favorite scum tells, in as much as I believe in scum tells, in Post 407. I did have this happen to me once. I wrote a whole wall of reads in marketplace mafia, but I was on my ipad and accidentally hit the "x" instead of the tab and had to rewrite the entire thing. However, every time that I can remember someone claiming to have just written a big huge post that got eaten and

they weren't going to rewrite it,

it's been scum.

So this is your favourite scumtell, and yet it's something that actually happened to you as town?

Technology is alignment blind. I bolded for you the alignment relevant part.

And Empire, just so you know, one of us was *-* close to having to replace out after I read Post 504. My knee jerk reaction was to talk to you on aim about how ridiculous it was that he thinks you're scum.

this feels like a fake dumb tell.

Okay? Do you know what the word dumb means? You could call it a fake reaction if you want; although I doubt I would even think to say something like that if it weren't a reaction I had.

I get the feeling you're going for the too scummy to be scum play. I know you are capable of reading things properly, so I'm rather confused by your play overall.

[Tammy]

@Tammy- you say that Johhog is suspicious because his play here doesn't feel like his ordinary town play. Have you checked some of his games as scum? How do they compare to this?

That's not all I have said about johhog, and I said I'd still find his play suspicious even if we'd never played ogether before.

No, I haven't checked any of his games, but empire said his only scum games are newbies. I don't really check games I haven't played in for meta except when

empire makes me

it's a bit more crucial and I'm having a hard time getting a read on someone.

I'm really only rereading the tm white flag game again because even though I wasn't in it, my teammate was so its about as close as rereading a game I actually played in as I can get.

[Tammy]

VOTE: n

[Tammy]

I was hoping to have more energy to comment on some things, but drugs are kicking in and I'm heading to bed. I'll try to get to this tomorrow morning, but I have an interview tomorrow I need to prepare for, so etc.

Don't like Penguin's comment about Wicked saying "not going to say why" being shady. And I agree with Empire that Penguin can just as easily be scum with N, who's most recent string of posts are just twitch inducing.

I hope Vi's "Trying to force No Lynch" thing against Johhog is trolling. I'm suspicious of Johhog and didn't think he remotely meant that.

There was something else. Forgot.

[Tammy]

So, my track record of suspecting town day one is still in tact. *yay* I wish he wouldn't have played "off" because of a role; I think in this player list no one needed to and he probably would have lasted longer.

Shadoweh is town. Sorry I doubted you Shadoweh!

remind me I said this when I doubt you again in 5 minutes

Nacho made a good point about CTD talking to Shadoweh like she was misguided town instead of an actual suspect in Post 523.

My first thought is that N is town. Not on the replace out; I actually thought that was rather scummy at first but think it's probably just null. But, CTD made quite a push on N at the end of day one. CES says he's tricksy and since he's flips traitor he has to be a little careful about things, but he couldn't have known he'd die over night so his last complaints about N are I dunno, lean me a little town. We'll see what OGML does, but I'm not ready to drain his blood like I was at the end of day.

Meh I need to re-read. The only reads I still feel confident about from the end of the day are Tierce and Empire being town. Those are two I probably will never be paranoid of. Nacho looks really town from his end of the day reads list though, but his read on Empire is off. And Shadoweh too. Everyone else I need to think about though I still want to think Benmage and Llamarble are town.

I'm having second thoughts on my leaning town read on CES. His insistence on there being a three person scum team when Vi was saying four is rubbing me the wrong way. The thing is Faraday ran a game at Westeros that started the same day as this game and it was 16 person with a 4 person scum team that was limited in the amount of kills they could make the first four days, so a 3 person scum team with a traitor follows along with the type of balance he used in the game he created at the same time. Does this make sense?

There's also the possibility CES was bussing Vi. And I *think* CTD pretty much ignored him. I'll find out if I missed that soon.

[Tammy]

Okay so CTD really didn't mention/responded to in throwaway posts: Benmage, CES, Vi, Konowa, DV, Wickedest, Tierce.

Tierce is town, and I still would like to think Benmage and DV are town.

So, I would expect at least one probably two scum in Vi, Konowa, CES & Wickedest.

He did mention that he wasn't interested in a Vi wagon though...I don't know if that would be too blatant for a traitor.

[Tammy]

VOTE: ces

[Tammy]

Okay re-made it through the first 10 pages and think that ces/wicked are good votes. If either is scum, the other works...

CES - Why did it take you so long to start questioning Llamarble?

[Tammy]

Or anyone else who takes the time to read Tammy's walls.

That definitely implicates you more than me.

Sympathy for the reader.

unvote
vote: Vi

[Tammy]

Vi, CES, T/S

Short answer: S

I said D1 that I thought CES was Town; his means of coming around to suspecting me seemed logical and supported by a surprising amount of thought (specifically "any that he chose to share"). At this point it seems evident to me that CES is tunneling me as an end to itself; if you understand what he's said about me Today, please tell me. Something similar happened with {Vi, N, penguin_alien}; notice that not only did CES coax both of the two wagons,

but he deliberately didn't choose until his vote would hold the least accountability

("just put one down for the sake of avoiding No Lynch"). Now look at this exhaustive list of people CES has pushed over the course of the game:

This doesn't seem like a very valid point. I've only seen CES!scum a few times, but none of those time did he deliberately try to avoid choosing a vote so that his vote didn't have much accountability. He might still be scum here, but this is a weak.

[Tammy]

Someone he called scum is probably scum. Just saying.

Also you are forgiven but I'm watching you for Day 5 mind changes. O_O

This is entirely possible.

You are holding me to a higher standard than I am capable of. Silly Shadoweh haven't you noticed if I'm alive past day three, I start distrusting almost everyone?

[Tammy]

Okay re-made it through the first 10 pages and think that ces/wicked are good votes. If either is scum, the other works...

How so? And what happened to your Wicked townread from D1?

Scrapped it. I scrapped most of my reads from day one other than the ones I felt confident about and am reassessing, especially since being horribly wrong about johhog. And my wicked town read was admittedly for a pretty silly reason. He mentioned that the CTD/Shadoweh thing felt like bussing and because I had gotten a little paranoid over the same thing thought he was town for demonstrating my thought process. But, CTD/Shadoweh weren't bussing, and Nacho made some really good points regarding wicked that I had been overlooking by that point. Anyway, both are good votes to see what comes of it regardless.

[Tammy]

Oh sorry. In Post 103 he makes sure to follow up with Ben why he called CES scum. Benmage had previously called both Empire and CES scum in Post 42 without any reasoning for either, so why is CES the only one that wicked mentions? (He also does a similar thing with wondering why Tierce thinks N is scum in Post 248)

Both of these seem rather throwaway and don't seem to serve a real purpose than to be commenting on someone for the sake of it. Also, they both are in the list of people that CTD didn't really mention/mentioned in throwaway posts, and I know the mafia traitor role is a tricky one for us to make sense of on how they would treat their partners, but it's something I want to look into.

[Tammy]

Vi, Tammy, T/S

You've seen a lot more Tammy-scum than I have, and from what I've heard I'm not going to be good at reading her.

With that said, T.

But why though? At this point even empire, who should be good at reading me, didn't feel really comfortable calling me town. Why did you, even with the caveat?

[Tammy]

Vi, CES, T/S

Short answer: S

I said D1 that I thought CES was Town; his means of coming around to suspecting me seemed logical and supported by a surprising amount of thought (specifically "any that he chose to share"). At this point it seems evident to me that CES is tunneling me as an end to itself; if you understand what he's said about me Today, please tell me. Something similar happened with {Vi, N, penguin_alien}; notice that not only did CES coax both of the two wagons,

but he deliberately didn't choose until his vote would hold the least accountability

("just put one down for the sake of avoiding No Lynch"). Now look at this exhaustive list of people CES has pushed over the course of the game:

This doesn't seem like a very valid point. I've only seen CES!scum a few times, but none of those time did he deliberately try to avoid choosing a vote so that his vote didn't have much accountability. He might still be scum here, but this is a weak.

Luckily, I said a fair amount more than you bolded.

The bolded was all I took issue with >_>

Or anyone else who takes the time to read Tammy's walls.

That definitely implicates you more than me.

Sympathy for the reader.

unvote
vote: Vi

We're talking about CES; it's more like this.

If it makes you feel better, I've not read several peoples' walls. (If that doesn't make you feel better, etc.)

The inspiration for my post!

It never makes me feel better to be lumped with everyone else

[Tammy]

Am I hallucinating or did ces just respond to Vi a couple hours before he actually made that post? I think I need to go back to sleep.

[Tammy]

CES has spent the entire game thus far tunneling on four people, all of whom are actually pretty likely to be Town and all of whom just happen to have been the major wagons going on without his input. Three of them were targets of opportunity (Llamarble, N, penguin_alien) and I was just an easy pick along the way to lynching N and penguin_alien.

Now consider that Johhog softclaiming his power role sounds a

whole lot

like why he was killed (feel free to come up with an alternative explanation; I'll wait). Now you get to choose whether you believe I'm spinning webs of elaborate fake confusion about why he was killed, or if I was actually left out of the loop entirely AKA not scum. I'm legitimately surprised that people who have read a whole lot more of this game than I have (well, the Townies, anyway) have not picked up on this yet.

But the question is: would you fake a town tell to sound like town?

Also, I'm not getting some of your points about CES. It's kinda hard to tunnel four people, having four suspects pretty much indicates not tunneling. Llamarble was a natural push and actually seemed odd to me that he wasn't tunneling Llamarble at the start of the game. But I can't tell how much of it is you actually thinking CES is suspicious and you pulling playstyle hatred against him like for instance in Post 821 where you say that there's no meta reason for us to expect positive contribution. I actually think that's wrong and that he's been rather forthcoming with his thoughts and reasons on things and they read genuine enough, so I can't follow along if you actually find him suspicious and that's part of the problem for me.

Why do you suspect Shadoweh and not OGML? Especially considering OGML has done next to nothing since replacing in except call for a wagon on benmage? (Actually, I'd like CES to fill me in on the Shadoweh suspicion too. I'm putting this here to see if you actually read my walls. )

---------------

Obv prod dodge. This happens after work.

Do you work in 24-hour shifts?

Also, why Penguin over N yesterday?

-------------

CES - You said CTD was tricksy. How would you expect him to handle the traitor role?

-------------

Empire - I know you're voting CES, but why are you scum reading him? Also, what's your read on Vi?

I feel like there should be more there. Sorry, I'm really distracted right now. Too many things going on and this stupid dissertation has to be done like next week, so I'm even more scattered than I normally am.

~Tags fixed

[Tammy]

Faraday - Will you fix my quote tags???

Pretty please and thank you.

[Tammy]

Tammy, Konowa already beat it to me as the main thing is the slide off of CTD. CTD is certainly savvy enough to have dropped a subtle hint and Shadoweh catching it (or a team mate catching it + daytalk) would make her line of play feel very natural to me.

But is the nature of the attack in the first place something you would expect from scum on perceived town? Or Shadoweh!scum on perceived town? The reason why I thought they were distancing is because the nature of her attack reminded me of when she replaced into Otherworld and went after her partner. But, him being traitor pretty much got rid of that suspicion. I did find the slide off of CTD when the wagon started to build to be suspicious, but why even bother starting the argument if you're not going to see it through?

[Tammy]

Obviously I looked for one, 'marble. Not sure why you'd assume I hadn't.

Vi: In ADwD I thought my team's traitor was town right up to when he was lynched (and originally thought he flipped traitor for the other team). I guess I can't prove that I missed Johhog breadcrumbing a PR here, but my ability to read subtle hints is provably awful. Besides, if he did wouldn't you be able to find it too now?

1) Don't call me Vi.
2) I didn't want to be needlessly negative but daytalking scum buddy did seem more likely from the get-go.
3) As for me being able/unable to find it, scum being an informed minority seems relevant here. I know of traitors on westeros leaving clues simply by making a post that groups all the scum together semi-conspicuously.

But traitors on westeros flip innocent not traitor, so they can do things like that without there being a trail when they flip. (And the last time I remember someone doing that, the entire scum team missed that hint.) But, here they flip traitor, so I wouldn't expect him to leave a strong trail.

[Tammy]

Empire - I know you're voting CES, but why are you scum reading him? Also, what's your read on Vi?

The CES vote is largely PoE. As far as their argument is concerned, honestly, I think both of them come off pretty badly:

- On the one hand, CES trying to push a weird almost BoP-type argument against Vi today is kinda shitty considering the general suspicion Johhog drew despite both his and your posts. A ton of people suspected him regardless, and unless you think a ton of people were just posturing about it, I don't really think ignorance of Johhog's softclaim is any kind of scumtell. Also, I know Vi doesn't read large portions of the game D1 in detail (for example, I remember Vi telling me after Castle Zar that he didn't really read any of MoI's posts) so him missing something like that doesn't seem farfetched to me.

- On the other hand, Vi pushing the whole "he hasn't really looked at anyone else angle" in #847 is pretty awful if you know anything about the way CES plays. Dude's pretty much one of the tunnel-iest people I've played with so him focusing almost exclusively on Vi is really CES just being CES, nothing alignment indicative -- Vi's played with him even more than I have so I just find that argument really weak. I don't know much about CES's scum meta (every time I've tried to metagame him it just ends horribly) but the idea that CES was trying to absolve himself of responsibility seems kind of ridiculous. CES can get away with a lot of things regardless of his alignment so I don't think he'd try a cop out kind of play like that as scum. My read on Vi is still very much TBD and I want to go through his meta one more time when I'm feeling better.

Okay, same page pretty much. There are little bits of things that look good for each of them and points about their suspicion of each other that don't make sense to me. Like I like Vi's semi-self-meta about not really reading and not picking up on johhog's crumb and that being a town tell for him. I also like his thinking the scum team would be four, and I dislike CES's push that the scum team was most likely three and that Vi was trying to sow confusion about the size of the scum team. Which doesn't really make sense to me at all as I think a scum team would be more likely to argue the scum team was smaller than it actually is not larger; I don't even know if I'm making sense about that right now. Anyway, it's a point that bugs me especially now that we have a traitor flip, which makes the scum team most likely to be three. But CES is being pretty forthcoming with his thoughts and answering questions which makes me think favorably of him somewhat and makes some of Vi's points about his play and helpfulness rather odd. In short, I really don't know what to think about either of them right now, so halp.

[Tammy]

Oh sorry. In Post 103 he makes sure to follow up with Ben why he called CES scum. Benmage had previously called both Empire and CES scum in Post 42 without any reasoning for either, so why is CES the only one that wicked mentions? (He also does a similar thing with wondering why Tierce thinks N is scum in Post 248)

Benmage singled out two players as scum very early on (page 2ish). His scumread on CES came after just one post from him;

We won't.

Vote: penguin

That's a pretty significant page 2 stance for Benmage based on hardly anything. There's nothing unusual about my question.

It wasn't a slam dunk, he's scum tell, just something to note if either of you ever flip mafia. My point about it was he called two people scum with no reasoning, but you only asked about ces. I see your point of him calling him scum based on one post, so at least that's more clear.

[Tammy]

Tammy also looks like scum as of the latest pass.

Whoops! You dropped your ball in the end zone; time for another pass. >_>

[Tammy]

Okay my Wicked town read is coming back. Why is there a wagon on him again?

I don't like his vote on DV though.

I wasn't referring to Shadoweh's slide off of CTD (I don't think that would make any sense as an argument since she wouldn't know his alignment regardless of alignment) but rather CTD's slide off of Shadoweh which I think makes more sense sense CTD would've known Shadoweh's alignment ifScum. I'm definitely going off the top of me head but I remember CTD still talking about Shadoweh as Scum but ignoring her.

I'm interested in why CES took what I said as what he said.

I don't know how likely this is either. If either one of them ever flipped, the other would look terrible. And if I, who isn't that strong of a mafia player, knows not to do something like this, why would CTD who is as CES said tricksy? He does say "Your case against me is terrible and your quality of scumhunting/post count ratio is abysmal. Please let me know if you're planning on continuing to tunnel me so I can ignore you for the time being. Kthxbai." in Post 425 though. Is that what you're referring to? If he is tricksy and he knows what looks suspicious, could he just as easily behave that way to make a fake connection?

Although there's something bothering me about CES's theory, but I can't put my finger on it. I need to think about it.

[Tammy]

Made me look it up.

522 and 551, the "you are clearly paying alot of attention" shtick.

Oh his comments to Nacho about Shadoweh.

paranoid webs.

Empire - what are your current reads on Shadoweh/Nacho?

[Tammy]

Okay I just reread ctd and I think what I thought I saw was nothing, but I'd still like empires input.

Also I agree that his attack on johhog for voting ces looks suspic ions.

[Tammy]

Prodded. Thought I posted tomorrow, guess I didn't. Sorry. Will catch up in a bit.

[Tammy]

And by tomorrow I mean yesterday. Just woke up.

[Tammy]

YOLO

[Tammy]

Okay so, mulled over this game/situation while running today hoping it would become clear, but unfortunately every time I thought I had a handle of it the spin cycle reset itself and I got battered with indecision once again.

Vi - I don't know who I want to lynch today really.

And I think part of my problem is that the CES/Vi issue is what I've focused most of my attention on. I haven't really had a whole lot of time to look at the game in depth as a whole right now, and though I have some pretty good town reads that I feel confident in, everything else is murky. Empire and tierce are town, those reads I'll take to the bank. (and vi Post 505 isn't actually out of character for empire and is a pretty solid town tell post for empire). Still think that deasvail and wicked are town, and I'd like to believe that benmage and shadoweh are town but I feel kind of antsy about calling shadoweh town. I want nacho mama to be town, and I think llamarbles recent konowa case more likey comes from town than scum. I don't know why benmage said that llamarble is so scummy it hurts; I didn't see anything wrong with the post he was referring to. And llamarbles first vote and mention about konowa's "and I don't care if you think that" is something that on a gut level felt wrong to me too, which makes me feel even better about him and his case. And his "I went to ISP myself to see if I was pleased with my posting quality" in Post 900 is so adorable I just want to say that has to come from town. (and I mean adorable in the most non-condescending way...sometimes I think I should clarify that)

So who does that leave?

(CES, Konowa, OGML, and Vi)

I doubt very seriously the whole scum team is in there though, so one of my town reads or would like to be town reads have to be wrong. Maybe nacho or shadoweh if so? My main problem I think is that I keep reading through them and finding little reasons for why they might be town. I really don't get vi's near certainty that the N/OGML slot is town. I haven't seen anything that really looks townish, and I don't know anything about OGML but does he usually not really do anything in a game? Konowa's Post 18 just really bugged me, but the interaction with tierce and some of his direct interaction with people reads kind of townish. CTD only mentioned konowa once in Post 311 to say that he was flying under his radar, which migh be suspicious. I need to reread through ctd again though as I'd like to compare how he treated empire to his other suspects.

I did wonder if the "you're clearly paying attention" could be a hint of sorts to nacho, as he was voting N at the time but was arguing with shadoweh. Someone had pointed out that he was on one wagon while pushing another and he had answered that he was pushing two of his suspects but he only had one vote, which is a reasonable response, so perhaps that was what he meant by "you're not paying attention"? I don't know.

This whole ces/vi thing has pretty much consumed the day and I don't feel confident about either of them. Part of me thinks that if they are both the same alignment then they are both scum, because it just doesn't feel like a town v town battle. And if one of them is scum and one of them is town I just have no way to sort through the mess to figure out which one it is.

As far as ces goes there are little things I like. Oh and vi, ces' presence on the penguin wagon at start of day isn't as damning as you tried to make it out to be. At the time that ces came into the game, shadoweh and penguin had the largest wagons, so he normally would have ended up on one of those two anyway. I suppose why he ended up back on the penguin wagon after leaving the llamarble wagon would be a good question though. His interaction with llamarble seemed natural enough, and if he were going to just tunnel townies with bad reasons why wouldnt he just stay on llamarble, especially when others were willing to stay on llamarble and vi was telling tierce to get back on llamarble when she got off. I've seen him as scum tunnel on town and stay there even though they started dropping town tells that other people were noticing, so for him to jump off and say "there's something there" in Post 188 seems unnecessary?

His build up to scum reading vi also looks natural enough and Post 290 seems kind of odd to come from scum pushing for a town mislynch. He knows that empires meta cases are rather thorough and tend to be correct. Now I suppose he could have been sucking up to empire a bit here, but that still seems unnecessary and unlikely to work anyway. But it just looks like someone who thinks they have a scum read, not scum pushing a mislynch as I just don't think he'd care that much to try to get a meta case against him. (as an aside, Post 463 is really funny in an ironic way considering the tendency ces has to go after one person quite strongly at a time.) Post 539 feels town? I really liked his reasoning for his scum read in Post 583 as it shows him willing to share his thoughts which I think he's less likely to do as scum? I don't know about this really, the last game I watched when he was scum Mina noted that he was being unusually forthcoming, but he still tunneled in that game pretty strongly. His first vote of the day didn't change at all. I don't know what the smiley tell thing is though, that seems a bit silly? Unless its a personal vi thing.

But ces did you admit in Post 777 that vi hadn't read johhogs posts and therefore didn't know he'd crumbed a power role? Because if you do believe that then wouldn't you have to believe he wasn't part of the scum team that most likely killed him? And since you called Nachomama's scum list a surrealistic masterpiece in Post 736 which also had johhog as scum, why aren't you calling him out as not reading posts while scumhunting. What's your current read on nacho mama?

Post 896 reads town. It kinda reminds me of when I asked him if he was faking ignorance for something silly when he replaced into ny146, and he said that he did sometimes fake ignorance but wouldn't on something like that because he had some pride.

The thing as empire said is he does tunnel as town so I don't know why vi is using that point, and sometimes the reasons aren't great. I remember that his reasons for thinking red coyote was mafia in abarat weren't great, or staeg I think in adwd. Idk one persons good reasons are another persons silly reasons, and I don't see,the reasons here being bad? Overall I feel pretty good about ces, but it's ces. He doesn't sound overly manipulative. But I really don't know.

I feel worse about vi than I do ces but there are things that make me wonder about him too. There's been mention of him just not reading posts or paying attention, but there are indications that he's paying more attention to the game. For instance, Post 285, Post 336, Post 369 and Post 586. And in that last post some of it felt designed to discredit rather than to explain how he felt/thought about his voters. I remember this being his approach in open 463, though I think it was a little more blatant there.

Okay, I know this isn't helpful, but I'm about to falls sleep on my keyboard. I'll finish my thoughts about vi tomorrow.

[Tammy]

I really don't get vi's near certainty that the N/OGML slot is town. I haven't seen anything that really looks townish, and I don't know anything about OGML but does he usually not really do anything in a game?

OGML hasn't done anything Townish. With that said, please see post 920.

(One reason I'm extremely skittish about reading you is because I'm told this kind of thought process does not work on you at all.)

Yeah, I saw you said it wasnt impossible he was mafia.

What thought process doesn't work on me? And why would someone else's thought process not working on me have anything to do with my alignment? I have to say I'm a bit intrigued that you aren't really trying to read me. That might not be the right word, but I just woke up and meh. And it's not because I'm totally self-centered but I've been getting antsy lately when I get town reads for almost no reasons, even though I'm always town, and even though this isn't exactly that, it's making me wonder. On the one hand, if you were scum, you could just call me town because you'd know that. But I'm not even sure what I'm trying to say here or what I really think about it.

I've seen him as scum tunnel on town and stay there even though they started dropping town tells that other people were noticing

Sekrit: This is what's going on right now; please see Llamarble's and Wetfox's posts for more etc.

Different type of town tells.

I don't know what the smiley tell thing is though, that seems a bit silly? Unless its a personal vi thing.

The tell might not be entirely bad, but as applied there it's rubbish as it was obviously placed there deliberately. (That and I post smileys like a text-messaging hipster. #HASHTAG)

Me having posts where it looks like I'm paying attention to the game might come from me periodically trying to get into the game, albeit with limited success. I really don't know what to tell you if you think that I would willingly join a game like this and not try to care.

That wasn't my point. The statement that you weren't paying a whole lot of attention is at odds with the evidence of you paying attention.

Okay I have some grading to do before I go spend the afternoon being a dork, but I'll definitely make some time tonight to finish up my thoughts on vi. Also will read through konowa again, though his replace out is unfortunate, there was something else I wanted to do. Hmm...oh read through ctd.

YOLO! (unless you're reincarnated and then you might just come back as a troglodyte and wouldn't that be fun?)

[Tammy]

CES - What's the last scum game you played? Not as a hydra or a replacement. I can't find one and am tired of looking.

[Tammy]

Okay so my continued thoughts on vi. I was kinda hoping that one of you people who I trust to be town could just direct me here. I still don't know what to make of vi pretty much refusing to get his own read on me. I don't know what someone else's thought process not working on me has to do with my alignment. That kind of statement just sounds like "my thought process isn't the type of thought process that will make you agree with me" which I still don't see what that means for my alignment. It almost feels like the not really giving the opinion is leaving an opening to change at will later, but I don't think, or just hope, he's not sloppy like that as scum. I may not be as cocky as my obvtownnesss as empire or tierce, but I'm fairly readable and have played with vi, so it just feels odd. And now I really feel completely self-centered.

Oh and vi can you link me to a scum (or mafia) game that is not you as a hydra? And ideally not one in which you spammed the game in latin or in what I can only assume is Harry potter fan fiction? Oh and maybe something other than experimental mafia?

I kinda liked his response about penguin alien in Post 743. But I also don't know about this, he didn't show this kind of second guessing himself in castle zar with mehdi when he started looking kinda townish at the end of day, so Hrm. I want to believe him that he just didn't realize the crumb, but his first posts at start of day could easily be faked attempts at town tells, so yeah I don't know here.

His points against ces in Post 784 are just weak. In trying to find a ces scum game, I came across a game where both ces and vi were together as town. Think empire was in it too, and he tunneled in that game pretty hard. The language used is pretty bad too. The "he deliberately" part concerning the votes is just bad and the accountability thing is just wrong. Not to mention his own day one push make up the same exact people as ces, minus himself of course. And he points out the llamarble thing (when he had the big wagon) but didn't note that he was one of the first to move off and say there was something there.

I still think that the exchange in Post 786 feels weird as I don't see suggesting he didn't notice the soft claim and is evidence of not diligence scumhunting and simultaneously claiming that he belongs to the same scum team that,killed him for his claim. Unless he's talking about the suspicion yesterday? My heads spinning. But I hate the "oh, so you killed johhog". It feels off to me for some reasons. Post 800 is just wrong. Sure, benmage voted first but it was the wagon he had been pushing yesterday, so meh. I don't know, I think I've already gone over what is just bugging me about some of the ces push.

That is also evident in the wagon analysis. I don't get the wagon analysis especially for non flipped people and is jut looks premature and like busy work. I don't get the point of going after the llamarble wagon especially. And to come to the determination that ces is the obvious scum on those wagons, looks like a determination was made beforehand and the evidence is being trotted out now to prove what was already planned or believed. First big wagons can easily be completely town. In mafia behind the maiden I was the first major wagon, and iirc there was not one scum on that wagon. In fact, I think of the major pushes against me that game, it was always by town. And scum scumhunted the wagon. The effort looks somewhat townish but I've known scum to do that exact thing to look town before, so not ready to call it town when the whole thing just keeps pointing at the same person being guilty especially when it looks predetermined.

But then there are posts like Post 888 where he seems genuinely annoyed, and the continual referencing the town tell, and little snippets about his scum play read somewhat genuine. The lack of consistency in near back to back posts reads somewhat townish, and again would be somewhat sloppy for scum.

In short I don't really know. I feel like I would be reading vi as town if it weren't for the thing with ces. And not because I think ces looks so super town, but because some of the points he's arguing are just pretty bad. But I don't see some of ces' points on vi either, though ces' points don't make my head crinkle up the way vi's do.

So, yeah, that was a lot of read through to come to the "I dunno" conclusion. Maybe after I read through a scum game for both of them I'll have a better handle. I'll just be super surprised if they're both town here, though it's not out of the question I guess fe them both to be scum and pulling the double bus. And if only one of them is scum, I think it might be ces except for when I think of him insisting on his town tells cuz that kind of thing gets to me.

I'm going to sleep. I'll read over konowa and ctd tomorrow.

[Tammy]

Oh and empire some of this, a lot, is here for your feedback. Is there anything I'm overlooking, focusing on that's irrelevant or downright silly?

[Tammy]

Ebwop: and if only one of them is scum, I think it might be vi...

[Tammy]

Apparently st. Party's day parades last a long time in la.

I can barely stay awake any longer, so I'll respond to what I can in snippets until I pass out and get to the rest tomorrow.

Empire - on that konowa post. I don't know what you're looking at. He didn't explain it that way earlier I think? Idk.

Maybe a fresh set of eyes can help clear up one of this murkiness here.

As far as vanilla cop. I'll have to go back and look at ny146 tomorrow, but I think magua basically explaining that it was essentially a regular cop in that a goon wouldn't come back vanilla. In Kanyes game, I was a mafia vanilla who came back vanilla to the rolecop, but that was explicitly in the rule set and the rolecop knew the mafia goon would come back vanilla.

But vi why did you choose wicked to investigate?

[Tammy]

Okay yeah, magua said that the vanilla cop could be used to clear vt's as really being innocent as well as bust any fake claims. Okay don't know how helpful that is.

[Tammy]

Tierce - why the scum read on shadoweh?

OH I see it. It took llamarble pointing it out. Empire is what you're talking about when konowa says "it's what I would have done as town?".

[Tammy]

Tammy, I think I have a lot more reservations about CES's play than you do. You do make a good point about CES sliding off the Llamarble wagon as I think he'd definitely use Llamarble's claimed playstyle shift as ammo as scum and would have kept pushing for that lynch. Aside from the other stuff I don't like about his Vi-push, what bugs me is that he wasn't really at the forefront of the initial Llamarble push. In Abarat and White Flag, he pushed Llamarble pretty early and hard and I'd go so far as to say he led those wagons. Here, he doesn't really do anything with Llamarble until suspicion mounts against him. And I don't get where you're coming from when you say he hasn't been manipulative because stuff like #933's "Do you have some kind of Revolution mafia related trauma where you can't side with me?" seems pretty damn manipulative to me.

On the other hand, there's some stuff that feels pretty townish from CES -- particularly #896 (which was the reason I unvoted before I left). I know CES plays a really stiff/tight scum game so I believe him when he says he would have taken some care to make sure he didn't come off badly when presenting arguments. Him coming off to a false start at the beginning of today (his admission that his posts to start the day off were based on a misreading) doesn't seem like something he'd do as scum. And then there's posts like #539 and his frustration with Llamarble "not towninating" in #259 that read genuine -- actually, aside from the late start, his entire interaction with Llamarble seemed townish. I do want to know, though, why he thought the CTD wagon was anti-town.

So basically, the long and short of this is that I have no clue on CES and I wish he were as easy to read as Regfan.

Did I say fuck this game yet?

That was exactly the problem I had with ces...that he didn't push on llamarble right away.

Eh, I don't really see that as too manipulative. I think I've seen him make statements along those lines as town before and it feels kinda straight up? Idk when I think of ces and manipulative, I think of him being a bit more underhanded? I mean I guess I don't know.

Yeah, either as easy to read as regfan or that chamber was assigned to this game.

No, but fuck this game too! Will you hurry up and be decisive about something? I'm entering my whimper stage and need someone to sheep.

[Tammy]

Oh and vi can you link me to a scum (or mafia) game that is not you as a hydra? And ideally not one in which you spammed the game in latin or in what I can only assume is Harry potter fan fiction? Oh and maybe something other than experimental mafia?

Otters vs. Tigers vs. Sharks, aka "what do you mean I can't bus my whole team" IIRC. Since a lot of that game died in the crash, that leaves DEFCON 3.0, which was one of many games I'd just as soon not see resurface due to the extreme badness therein. Please see wiki etc.

Thank you. Couldnt you have claimed before I read through that though?

["quote="vi"]
Honestly the thing that worries me most about this is the insistence that there

must

be one scum between me and CES. Regardless of how I feel about the Dutchie, being forced into a situation where it's possible that both of us are Town and the lynch is just kind of ~decided~ to be between one of us for vague reasons ("well they're the ones arguing, and it's taken up the whole day [because literally half the game isn't posting], and when two people go after each other all the time like this is must be TownVscum") is setting off giant red fireworks.[/quote]

If this is in reference to me it pretty much highlights one of the things that has bugged me about you not giving a read on me because you're skittish. It's not like I'm a lurker who doesn't post things and is therefore hard to read. I've posted quite a bit of content, so the "I'm relying on empire here" makes it convenient for you to change at your whim and you don't have to worry about looking unnatural shifting a town read if necessary. Saying that it doesn't feel like townvtown and that I'd be super surprised if both of you were town doesn't even come close to insisting that there must so strong must is italicized be that way.

And if you're not sure one of the two of you is scum, why has all of your arguments and evidence been pointing to the obvious argument that ces is scum

-----------------

Oh and you asked in Post 1007 why you would read johhog? Didn't he fit a similar criteria? Scum red of yours a lot of people thought was town?

[Tammy]

I'm just gonna post this now while I go down my not off list list (DeasVail, Konowa, Llamarble, Tammy) I will say right now that Tammy's post to Empire comes off as whining, which I really don't associate with Tammy-Town.

What was whining about it? That I'm entering the whimper stage and want someone, who I trust, to sheep?

Your permission to use the "what I associate with town-Tammy" card is hereby summarily revoked until you learn how to use it properly because none absolutley none of what you have been claiming doesn't fit town Tammy since the beginning of the game has any basis in fact or reality. I post in one liners as town. I'm not always mad as town. I dont always go into deep insights as town. And I do, in fact whine as town. Especially so when I've read through everyone more than once, read their meta, and still come up lost.

And just so you're aware, anyone who knows how to properly use the "this is what town-Tammy does" card knows I'm quite obviously town here. Oh and here's a little bonus hint for you, you know that thing I've mentioned a couple times, the dissertation whose deadline is rapidly approaching and is not about mafia? Yeah, that one. I'd love to have an actual real life thing that makes me busy, that more than one person in this game knows is true, to hide behind so I didn't have to post and what would make it better is I would totally blend in with the other half of the game that is doing jut that. If you actually knew anything about me, you would know the amount of time and energy I've put into this game, makes it inifinitely more likely that I'm town than not.

Not only did I fall asleep, I just realized I forgot DeasVail existed. Staring at Tammy's posts I can't come up with something that would drive a case in 3 days or bust. I do know what's bothering me though, her posts are too familiar. There's trusting, and then there's trusting to the point of not looking for alignments. That and she hasn't gotten into a hueg fight with anyone yet. How often does that not happen? <.<
'.

So, you actually got around to reading my posts and realized the crap you spewed earlier didn't hold and decided to just mudsling instead? Awesome. I'd really love to see what kind of case you could come up with. I'd like for you to point out where I'm not actually looking for alignment, because that's rich, and what ive been doing all game. And I don't mean a "this is the sense I get blah blah blah" I want you to point out specific instances of where I'm just too familiar (whatever that means) and too trusting and not looking for alignments. I want to see that you are actually reading my posts.

As far as the last line. You better be trolling because if that's an actual accusation, congratulations you win the thread for the stupidest remark.

[Tammy]

Dammit. While looking at vi's post, I had a flash for why n might be town and I can't remember what it was. Putting this here mostly for myself to try to remember what that was later.

UT - I would love to just sheep you, but I'm not sure about your alignment and don't feel great about ces being scum.

I know I need to move my vote, but I'm not sure where I want to move it yet. I need to get some work done, I'll come back tot his in a bit.

[Tammy]

Not only did I fall asleep, I just realized I forgot DeasVail existed. Staring at Tammy's posts I can't come up with something that would drive a case in 3 days or bust. I do know what's bothering me though, her posts are too familiar. There's trusting, and then there's trusting to the point of not looking for alignments. That and she hasn't gotten into a hueg fight with anyone yet. How often does that not happen? <.<

Do you know what makes this even worse shadoweh? Is that just a few posts ago, you crossed off 8 people as town and gave a short list of four people on your not crossed off list. Then proceeded to cross off people off your not crossed off list. So, you trust two-thirds of this game and then decided to trust some more people? And then you seriously accuse me of being to trusting and not looking for alignments? Because there's hypocritical and then there's hypocritical. And I would say hypocrisy is somewhat of a town tell I most people, but I know that when you're scum you have a tendency to just say stuff and not be careful that you're being hypocritical or negating a previous post.

[Tammy]

Tammy: Would you be upset with me if I told you I wanted to make you mad to see what would happen? Why didn't you vote me after that? O_o (Not that I don't mean what I said though. Yes, that's the part I meant as whining and no, at this moment I'm not really symphasizing with being ignored while asking other people to have opinions for you. If you're not scum then get your own? Maybe I'm jealous.)

I would say your card restriction will last a bit longer than previously envisioned. Why would I vote you after that? And more importantly why would you think I would vote you after that? If you have been reading my posts, which I'm increasingly believing you just read that one or two in which I said I wanted to sheep someone, you would know that although I've been flip flopping on you since the start of the game, the last thing I said about you was that I thought you might be town, unless I was off on my scum list and then you and/or nacho might be scum.

And you legit have not been reading my posts if you think I have no opinions of my own or that's what I'm asking for. My posts are chock full of my opinions; what I'm lacking are conclusions I feel confident in. Which is something that is not unusual for me in the first place and is probably exacerbated by the fact that there are other more pressing things on my mind which is causing me to be a little more than distracted and scattered.

You are free to comment on the opinions I do have, but that would require actually reading my posts. I'm not asking for your opinions or to sheep you because I don't trust you; I don't have a confident town read on you. I do have a confident town read on Empire and grown a bit used to bouncing ideas off of him.

The "if you're not scum, get some of your own" makes no sense at all. If I were part of the informed minority, I'd already know who the scum/town were and wouldn't feel this lost.

Do you know what makes this even worse shadoweh? Is that just a few posts ago, you crossed off 8 people as town and gave a short list of four people on your not crossed off list. Then proceeded to cross off people off your not crossed off list. So, you trust two-thirds of this game and then decided to trust some more people? And then you seriously accuse me of being to trusting and not looking for alignments?

Should I have come to the conclusion that all five people are scum? I'm not egotistical enough to assume I found the entire scum team and we can all go home before actually reading everyone in depth. The logical conclusion is that I'm wrong somewhere, but finding something concrete in a group of suspects at this point is more important to me then sussing out which town reads aren't.

You totally missed the point, and maybe if you'd actually read my posts you'd know what the point is. You claim I'm not searching for people's alignments, never mind the fact that that's all I've been doing this game. You claim that I'm too familiar or too trusting; I still don't know what you mean by that. If you were reading my posts, you would see that I had given my town reads by varying strength and looked at four people who by poe might be scum and proceeded to try to read them. I also chose two of my town reads that might be scum if I was wrong on my four by poe.

You then proceeded to do something very similar. Cross people off your list, come to four and cross off some of those. Though in the process of you doing something similar to what I did, you accused me of not searching for alignments and seeming too trusting. That's what was hypocritical.

[Tammy]

Oh and vi can you link me to a scum (or mafia) game that is not you as a hydra? And ideally not one in which you spammed the game in latin or in what I can only assume is Harry potter fan fiction? Oh and maybe something other than experimental mafia?

Otters vs. Tigers vs. Sharks, aka "what do you mean I can't bus my whole team" IIRC. Since a lot of that game died in the crash, that leaves DEFCON 3.0, which was one of many games I'd just as soon not see resurface due to the extreme badness therein. Please see wiki etc.

Thank you. Couldnt you have claimed before I read through that though?

You needed to see PookyTheMagicalBearxInternet Stranger.

Well I think my favorite part was Mina saying that her case against you could be summarized by *twitch*.

The latter part is more interesting than the former.
You must think me unnaturally dense to not keep an eye on what's going on around me whilst I pursue someone I think is scum. News flash: I'm not so single-minded and convinced that I'm right that I don't watch what other people are doing. That would require me to be a patsy for scum. I kind of hate it when that happens.

That wasn't my point. I thought it was odd that while you are arguing that ces is obvious scum, someone else said it didn't feel like a townvtown argument.

So, since you're whinging about reading through an old bad scum game before I claimed, and also trying to find reasons to call me scum, would you like to pick the kind of obvious correct side now?

That last one was a left over complaint, and I don't typically try to find reasons to call someone scum. However, sometimes they do jump in my lap and go "woof". That said I'm still paranoid of you, so I'm not going to stop trying to read you.

As far as the obvious correct side, unfortunately there isn't a side that's obvious to me. If ces looked like obvious scum to me, that wall of thoughts wouldn't have had to happen and I'd happily be on that wagon and working on footnotes with glee. (Okay footnotes are never glee-inspiring but I have a chapter to footnote format before the night is through, and just kind of wanted to whine for a second.) The wagon grew a little more tempting when Llarmarble was on it, but now he's stepped back too, not seeing it as a slam dunk scum wagon. Also the OGML and UT pushing the wagon make me nervous. Konowa was a potential scum read mostly by poe and UT hasn't posted enough to get a good read on him, though his posts that he'll be the shepherd and won't lead me astray feel like town on a gut level, but his two posts to CES right after he voted shadoweh left me unsettled. And I don't know what to think of OGML, and can't remember the flash of brilliant insight I had this morning about why he might be town was, but popping in to do nothing but "vote on ces still good" while doing nothing else doesn't make me feel better about the wagon either.

The shadoweh wagon is interesting as is her stepping it up to provide reads once Tierce started pushing for her lynch. But, the self-meta gets to me, just as your calling out your town tells gets to me, and I'm interested in what she's going to start doing now. I'm still somewhat suspicious of the interaction between CTD, and if Shadoweh does flip scum then think there could be something to CTD's statement to Nacho that he was clearly paying attention in regards to Shadoweh and him. Also, nacho's slight defending of shadoweh here and there could be something. If she's scum, which I don't feel confident in. This game is driving me insane.

[Tammy]

I messed up my quotes again, and there are minor responses in the quote box.

yolo

[Tammy]

we have seven hours. can we swing a CES lynch? Shadoweh I know is on board. I definitely am.

show of hands?

What changed from your just a few hours ago "we have the scum" post?

And yes, I do have a bad case of wordvom, which I tend to o when I'm lost and uncertain. I'm more succinct when I'm sure, or have strong gut reasons.

[Tammy]

Shadoweh - when I said self-meta gets to me, I mean I think it's a townish thing to do. Of course it's not necessarily as scum do it too, but it usually breaks my resolve.

I'll be around on and off, and can hammer when necessary.

I still don't feel great about this lynch, but I don't feel great about any lynch. Everyone's town, we should just no lynch, hold hands and have a sing-along.

[Tammy]

we have seven hours. can we swing a CES lynch? Shadoweh I know is on board. I definitely am.

show of hands?

What changed from your just a few hours ago "we have the scum" post?

oh hey there false dichotomy, haven't seen you in like four posts. missed u babe

I dont see how that's a false dichotomy and it doesn't answer the question.

[Tammy]

because I can totally think they're both scum baby

That part I get, but why try to shift to ces whom you previously said was a gut read when your post about shadoweh and the Ben wagon seemed like you were more certain and had evidence? Wouldn't one scum lynch be just as good as the other?

[Tammy]

I don't have evidence, all I have is reads, and I'm more sure of my CES vote as should be evident from like any of my posts on the subject.

baaaaaaaaa

But this sounds like you have evidence:

oh I see the confusion now

Shadoweh/Nacho were referring to the benmage wagon as the counterwagon instead of by its real name which is A FUCKING RUSE

the benmage ruse was a distaction. we HAVE the scum.

Do you have a tendency to just throw out crap to see if it sticks? Or do you truly believe the benmage wagon rose up as a ruse to distract from a shadoweh!scum waon?

[Tammy]

VOTE: untrod tripod

[Tammy]

Zach - why were you thinking of voting UT?

[Tammy]

If you have been reading my posts, which I'm increasingly believing you just read that one or two in which I said I wanted to sheep someone, you would know that although I've been flip flopping on you since the start of the game, the last thing I said about you was that I thought you might be town, unless I was off on my scum list and then you and/or nacho might be scum.

You said it awhile ago and the tone of your post implied you thought I was doing scummy shit. I wouldn't say I have a case worth sheeping but in my humble opinion it's better then what is quickly becoming a last minute power wagon on easy pickings. You're still currently voting Vi, so you aren't voting Not-Me yet. Even if you aren't confident, it's time to make a stand, at least that's what I think. (even if ironically being loud is what's contributing to this.) It sounds like you don't like the current wagons either so either look for something new for sharks to dig into or enjoy telling me to shutup in the votingest way possible.

.

Yes, I do think you are doing scummy shit, but I don't know if you're scum doing scummy shit or town. What I think is most scummy is the weird meta attacks you've been making this game that aren't even close to being correct. The argument against empire was off day one. And your argument against me day one which has evolved into a day two of new and special incorrect meta to use against me. I got crap from you and empire because oh my god Tammy was writing in short posts giving thoughts as she goes along! How can that possibly come from town? I need to see walls! I give walls, and now you're inventing new meta things I'm supposed to be supplying. And if any of you knew the more I think about people the more my reads suck, you wouldn't complain about me starting out the game the way I did this one.

If you look at my meta I also self-meta as town, because this conversation isn't meta enough. In truth you are correct, I didn't go into depth in your posts because after soloing the other lanes I needed to resupply. And I wanted to see your response first.

Okay. Two things. What grand insight did you get from annoying me? And are you saying you're reading people in iso's and not reading the game as it progresses?

As for what I'm going to do now, I'm honestly not sure. I don't have a case to push people onto even if I were to convince people to get off me. I supose it doesn't matter, if the active posters want to throw me out then so be it. Just don't spend tomorrow lynching each other and take some pot shots at the lurkers instead.

If you don't have a case to push people onto and are unable to come up with one, why are you all befuddled that I don't have one?

[Tammy]

I would think it was pretty clear that I count you and Tammy as townreads because I'm like, actually trying to get you to go along with me on stuff. I don't negotiate with scum.

I also have a provisional townread on Empire in addition to the aforementioned town read on benmage.

my only strong scumread is on CES and I have a bit of a scum boner for Shadoweh. what else did you want to know?

Nacho mama is the one who started the wagon on benmage. How can the benmage wagon be a ruse to save shadoweh and be started by someone you think is town?

[Tammy]

do go on, Tammy. I'm sure this case based on activity since I replaced in will be well-founded and not at all stupid

The caps response to ces when he voted shadoweh read off, and today instead of just answering a question you played the semantics game.

[Tammy]

I would think it was pretty clear that I count you and Tammy as townreads because I'm like, actually trying to get you to go along with me on stuff. I don't negotiate with scum.

I also have a provisional townread on Empire in addition to the aforementioned town read on benmage.

my only strong scumread is on CES and I have a bit of a scum boner for Shadoweh. what else did you want to know?

Nacho mama is the one who started the wagon on benmage. How can the benmage wagon be a ruse to save shadoweh and be started by someone you think is town?

one person does not a wagon make. my townreads are perfectly capable of being wrong, by the way. you know, kind of like how your vote on me is shit

There were three votes on benmage at the time that you called it a ruse designed to distract from the scum wagon of shadoweh.

[Tammy]

you keep using this word...evidence....

you literally can't have evidence unless you have a mod-confirmed investigative result, and even then...

I have reads, I think benmage is town and I read that wagon as a rusewagon on town to distract us from the SCUMifom.

we have seven hours. can we swing a CES lynch? Shadoweh I know is on board. I definitely am.

show of hands?

What changed from your just a few hours ago "we have the scum" post?

oh hey there false dichotomy, haven't seen you in like four posts. missed u babe

[Tammy]

@UT: Out of interest, what reference were you making with that image?

that's the crying indian. it's a fairly iconic image


subtext: I think a lot of what you're saying is fake

Do you have a scum read on him?

[Tammy]

I mean, evidence is a word that it's important that we use correctly. at this stage of the game we can hardly have ACTUAL evidence and that hard absolutely are NOT a thing I throw around lightly. I don't call things absolute that aren't, so I was making the point (as I always do, you can check my meta) that you can't use the word evidence at this time

as far as false dichotomy, I mean that's a logic thing, not a semantic thing

No, see you're squabbling with me over the use of a word and whether or not it's proper rather than just answering the question.

And you introduced the fallacy of a false dichotomy because that's not what I did when I asked you the question.

[Tammy]

we have seven hours. can we swing a CES lynch? Shadoweh I know is on board. I definitely am.

show of hands?

You may have officially switched over after deadline extension, but I'm sorry to inform you that this post came before that, and after not only was shadoweh put at l-1 but your post declaring that we HAVE the scum.

I'm also sorry o inform you but I never set up a false dichotomy because I never excluded ces as a scum read but wondered hat happened to the confidence you showed in the previous post when you declared we HAD the scum.

Also it doesn't matter what the word used is but in that post you sounded certain due o the rise of the benmage wagon that we HAD scum.

Now instead do just saying something along the lines of "yeah, that's pretty damning and I still think shadoweh is scum but I feel more confident in my ces read" you started throwing out crap that really didn't answer the question at all.

[Tammy]

Okay shadoweh was just here reading and not posting.

[Tammy]

Vi - Why did you go from thinking CES was obvious scum to thinking his wagon was a terrible wagon?

(If you already answered Zach, sorry but I missed it -happy hour weeeeee-)

[Tammy]

Konowa roleblocked empire night one?!?

Hang on.

[Tammy]

Okay so these are the moments when it sucks to have a replacement.

There is literally not tiny little hint of suspicion of empire in Konowa's iso. Not one. In fact there's nothing to indicate he didn't think he was anything but town. I could see him blocking Johhog, or wicked, dv, or hell even me, but I don't see why he would block empire.

I realize I've had a few tonight, but don't you usually block your suspects?

[Tammy]

Tammy: @_@ If I say I'm sorry will you stop yelling at me while saying you think I'm town but god I do scummy things?

I will give you a virtual :hug: is that good enough?

[Tammy]

not everyone claims all their reads up front

I don't know what to tell you, I'm not konowa

It's not abuot just claiming reads, but the way you talk to and about a person.

Read konowa and then tell me about the choice.

And yes, I know you're not konowa, that's why I said this is when replacements suck.

[Tammy]

Okay so what is so hard about answering damn questions when someone you're town reading asks you because they're trying to get a better read on you and then to decide how to view your reads? Because when you throw out the crap UT did, it just looks like you're throwing out crap for the sake of it and that always looks scummy to me. Also, when someone is trying to figure out your damn claim, it's probably not a good idea to say they're being a dumb ass. It doesn't make them want to not vote you. And I could kick Konowa for not bothering to leave a message for him for why he tracked empire. Would that have been so damn hard?

Poor Faraday had to put up with a drunken rant right after the lynch, and I'm still annoyed. This game is making me feel rage.

I've decided all my reads are going into the grinder. Yep, even those super strong town reads on empire and tierce. I realize you're both busy, but real life is sucking me dry too and I managed to make waffles for breakfast, lunch and dinner last day phase. Please do something to stop this rising paranoia. kthnx.

VOTE: ces

Might as well start this day out like the others. Plus a little baaaa after the fact.

[Tammy]

Would you have killed a cop over someone who possibly isn't a PR? They aimed for a possible PR last time, and this one was on someone worth NKing regardless. It's not always that simple. Also it was a roleblock Tammy, but I'm not sure how you could or whether you'd want to leave a trail of that.

Despite my lowly white girl brainstorming efforts I wasn't able to contextulize the rap about why everyone should lynch Benmage properly in my head. Am I the only one who thinks his hammer was scummy? Along with his ignoring of the burdening wagon on him, and the lame vote on OGML who wasn't close to taking off that day which kept people from noticing they were handing the hammer vote to the other lynchee?

Oh yeah, that's what I meant. He could have left a message with the mod to pass along, so he wouldn't get stuck in that position.

Shadoweh, do you mean the image of him throwing down his microphone? He was basically saying, "I'm done here"!

But yeah, the hammer was odd.

[Tammy]

Tammy, the activity based paranoia is ridiculous, it's fuckign great and fantastic and lovely that you've managed to find the time to post more than i do but i can't keep up the activity that I used to and the fact that i still manage to make time for this game by posting during fucking class. and to be honest, i feel like this has been my single most obvtown game in mafia unless yopu suddenly think i became god tier at scum so the paranoia makes no sense from someone who should be able to read me. and despite being sduper busy i'm still among the most prolific posters in the thread. so fuck that noise. (also i'm posting while drunk, i think this should p much make me IC-tier town).

Let me have my paranoia; it will work itself out. For you it's not activity based and my paranoia is in the green zone. The paranoia is mostly about Tierce...that's probably orange.

[Tammy]

But empire your whole post made me laugh, and you know what that means anyway.

[Tammy]

See, I'd just prefer to accept that Tierce, Empire, and Tammy are all town. That shrinks the lynch pool to a much more manageable level... and you know that would be awesome.

We are, and really obviously so at that, and that's why I'm pissed off at her pancakes and waffles and sillynoia.

Okay, I'm good. Heads on straight...well sort of. You know what I mean. Sorry for the dip in sanity. Congratulations by the way!

[Tammy]

Prod dodging. I will try to get to this game tonight but am not promising anything.

[Tammy]

I'm really interested to see any reasons why Benmage is scum. I'm not inclined to suspect him for the hammer (If you put a wagon at lynch -1 you can pretty much count on him hammering it.) and I wasn't hugely inclined to suspect him even before that. If there's a real reason to suspect him, I'm missing it.

Its funny, less I do the townier I appear. I'm going to have to screw you all one day.

That day is not today.

I can't help but think that Benmage is a capable enough scum player to go "okay, if I lurk like hell, I won't get suspected".
He also feels a little less aggressive than usual. Generally when Benmage is suspected when he's lurking like hell as town he would have popped in a couple of times with "MY SCUMGAME IS FLAWLESS", but nothing of the sort so far.

Then keep going.[/quote]

But, why wouldn't he as scum pop in to say that either? It's expected of him, it's easy enough to say, why not say it? What about it is distinguishing him as scum?

[Tammy]

The TET assumption is pretty helpful, so you TET folks had better be pretty confident about each other. I personally don't see much wrong with y'all.

Empire has dropped probably at least five Empire town-tells. And he's better at reading Tierce than I am (I used to have a tendency to just scum read Tierce but recently have gotten much better at reading her). My main paranoia at the start of day, as silly as it was, was that they were partners, but their responses to my paranoia was got rid of that.

[Tammy]

One of the issues with OGML is that his games are mostly pretty old. I'd say the most relevant ones are from Micro 53 to American Revolution as Town, and Playground Mafia as scum.

Town games: Micro 53 (this was the game I had as a base for "OGML is far better than this", which I remembered from months ago because I had discussed it with Empire), Author Mafia, American Revolution Mafia, Open 411, Mini 1141, American Gods Mafia

(don't hurt me, Faraday)

Scum games: Playground Mafia

Hmm...American Revolution. I was trying to figure out why I felt like I had some experience with OGML. I replaced into American Revolution after OGML died, but from what I read it was easy to get a mislynch on him and he suspected my whole team at some point I think. So, decent gut but looks rather scummy while doing it. Reserving judgment to see how he interacts and responds today. Though I had a pretty good scum read on N.

[Tammy]

Just turbobusser in general, 'marble. I don't think Nacho spending effort to save his buddy N makes notably more sense than more straightforward conclusions (i.e. if a bunch of townies showed up to swing the wagon to p_a late, then maybe that swing was driven by townies).

So then is he turbobussing benmage now?

[Tammy]

So Nacho / CES / maybeN until further notice.

I like this because I don't trust Nacho.

[Tammy]

Oh yeah, that's what I meant. He could have left a message with the mod to pass along, so he wouldn't get stuck in that position.
Shadoweh, do you mean the image of him throwing down his microphone? He was basically saying, "I'm done here"!
But yeah, the hammer was odd.

I don't think I've heard of any mods letting you send messages to replacements. You said 'reason why he tracked Empire', he wasn't a tracker dear.

I meant blocked...I said that earlier.

[Tammy]

Deasvail - You've been partners before with Nacho. What do you think of his being termed a turbobusser? Is that your experience with him?

[Tammy]

My internet is out and will be until I pick up a new modem tomorrow...hopefully.

If you want me to look at something specific, let me know., but I'm not going to post much on my phone because this just sucks.

[Tammy]

It does!

I got internet back tonight and ended up having a Dr. Who marathon. Sorry for my absence; I'll be better tomorrow, I promise.

[Tammy]

Maybe I don't want to see a pure PoE list from you because it doesn't jive with your mafia MO? Sorry but you seem like you take deductions too seriously to declare anyone scum without thinking they're scum.

Okay hand over that forged copy of the meta handbook. It's got erroneous information in it all over the place.

[Tammy]

I don't get the issue shadoweh keeps taking with zach's posts. In fact I just don't get a lot of shadoweh's posts. They sound like they're constantly annoyed, but I can't make out why.

[Tammy]

Last night when I was reading over the game, the sense that I got of ces today is that he's mostly arguing about argument types, and talking about how scum buddies interact and less about actual scum. CES - who do you think ogml's partners are? Reading his iSo I don't feel it as much but it's still there. (I still have some punts about him for sure coming back scum, not going to repeat them again since they're in my ces wall. I still like those things but he's capable of doing that as scum too.)

I need to think about it but I almost think nacho is the better lynch just because there are fewer things I like there. Additionally, I hate Post 1348. He left several colors at home in his attempt to paint a picture that lead to benmage scum because of the hammer. He totally left out me questioning the claim and target, vi agreeing with the points I raised and not moving, tierce not moving, and then the post Ben pointed out. That just is more scum motivated to me than town. I did like his reads posts, but I can't shake the suspicion I've had of him since early on, and I can't put my finger on exactly what but ctd's interaction with him is suspicious too.

[Tammy]

He left several colors at home in his attempt to paint a picture that lead to benmage scum because of the hammer.

The point is that there was a shit ton of things that came into the equation of us mislynching twice. Llamarble is arguing that the playerlist being good somehow means that now it's time to say "okay, CES can't be town too", and that's not quite right.

I guess I still don't get the point of the ones you chose to include or what point that makes. The posts you included show vi telling us we don't have a lot of time, shadoweh at l-1, it claiming and Ben hammering. Are you making a statement about the shadoweh wagon falling apart or Ben hammering ut after he claimed?

[Tammy]

He left several colors at home in his attempt to paint a picture that lead to benmage scum because of the hammer.

The point is that there was a shit ton of things that came into the equation of us mislynching twice. Llamarble is arguing that the playerlist being good somehow means that now it's time to say "okay, CES can't be town too", and that's not quite right.

I guess I still don't get the point of the ones you chose to include or what point that makes. The posts you included show vi telling us we don't have a lot of time, shadoweh at l-1, it claiming and Ben hammering. Are you making a statement about the shadoweh wagon falling apart or Ben hammering ut after he claimed?

The point is that we've had two days where deadline panic played a significant part in the lynch. Both days in a row, there's been a point of lag, deadline clamor, mislynch. The second day we even got a deadline extension, but we really didn't do anything with it, instead ended up driving a claim then hammering without any discussion. Obviously shitty play, obviously can't really be anyone's fault even though Llamarble is acting like something else happened entirely.

I don't see how you're viewing it that way. Day one had a significant early wagon on llamarble and a decent wagon on ctd. The main competing wagons then formed on n and pa with the ultimate choice being between them. In fact those two wagons competed for almost three days before the lynch was finalized hours before deadline. You got what you wanted that day as you fought to keep n alive instead of pa; the majority of your day one play was defense of n. There was no deadline panic to that lynch at all, and I'm surprised you're now characterizing it that way.

Day two was hardly a deadline panic either. If there was a deadline panic, we would have lynched shadoweh who was at l-1 at deadline and had claimed vanilla. She should have been the lynch yesterday. That lynch was a comedy of errors beginning when ut went weeeeee let's see if we can do something else in 24 hours for whimsy and ended in the clusterfuck that ended with his lynch. There was no deadline panic there either. Okay bn could have held off on the hammer, but ut also obviously wasn't actually interested in discussion or he would have, you know, just answered some of the questions I had earlier.

Is this why you're voting llamarble? Because he's trying to find a reason for why we've mislynched instead of oversimplifying it as deadline panic? There are clear reasons the wagons hve shifted so far.

[Tammy]

I can't help it if 'marble won't listen to me and keeps pushing my lynch on erroneous grounds. I'm not sure who OGML's partners are. There are three people that definitely don't look town - Shadoweh, benmage and Nacho but they only look mildly townie on a closer look. Benmage would fit as a partner given OGML's genuine disgust.

You don't have a town read on benmage?

[Tammy]

How about TET folks offer an opinion on
1. It is very likely that at least one of CES / Shadoweh is scum.
2. Which one they think is more likely.

Its likely?

I've talked about ces quite a bit, and shadoweh bugs me most on a tonal level. She keeps expressing annoyance and frustration and I can't figure out why. It feels like she's trying to reproduce town indignation and is overdoing it. I think it's replaced her scumhunting which is setting off alarms, especially when what scumhunting she has done is based on erroneous meta information.

[Tammy]

]I think my answer is obvious, but hey, why not. Not like I'm doing much anyway, so let's trust Tammy knows what she's doing.

VOTE: Cogito Ergo Sum

Even though Tammy has said she doesn't know what she's doing? >_>

But regarding your next post, I'm still contemplating if nacho wouldn't be a better lynch, but I have to run off to work now. So, I'll get back to this later.

[Tammy]

Jut a quick flyby

UNVOTE:

To avoid a hammer today.

Get back to this later, probably tomorrow.

[Tammy]

I'll get back to this is just a little bit, but something just struck me as rather odd.

Nacho worked like hell to save N day one. By his most recent reply to me, I would guess he has a town read on CES. He's caught up in a silly argument with Llamarble in which he's not actually trying to prove that Llamarble is scum though that is where his vote is.

So, if he thinks that ces is town and Llamarble is scum, why is he limping about not actually trying to get his scum read lynched?

[Tammy]

I'll get back into this tomorrow (7:30 PM class got cancelled woooo). I've been thinking of stuff to post but I really don't have anything to say right now for some reason.

Anyone have things to ask me?

This is quite possibly the worst post in this game and one i don't think I have ever seen come from town.

[Tammy]

This is quite possibly the worst post in this game and one i don't think I have ever seen come from town.

Well, deal with it, it just did.

Start scumhunting.

[Tammy]

For instance rather than ask for people to ask you things, be proactive.

But since you need a prompt for some reason. What is our update on OGML? Haven't you been watching him with the markers you learned?

[Tammy]

This is quite possibly the worst post in this game and one i don't think I have ever seen come from town.

Well, deal with it, it just did.

Like why take the time to comment on this piece of inanity and not what I posted about nacho last night?

[Tammy]

*i mean you're comment is inane, not my comment about you're bad posting. #yolojustwokeup

[Tammy]

Day two was hardly a deadline panic either. If there was a deadline panic, we would have lynched shadoweh who was at l-1 at deadline and had claimed vanilla. She should have been the lynch yesterday. That lynch was a comedy of errors beginning when ut went weeeeee let's see if we can do something else in 24 hours for whimsy and ended in the clusterfuck that ended with his lynch. There was no deadline panic there either. Okay bn could have held off on the hammer, but ut also obviously wasn't actually interested in discussion or he would have, you know, just answered some of the questions I had earlier.

To be fair, though I agree Day 1 wasn't as bad, Day 2 was two deadline pannics for the price of one. A second deadline wagon forming after the first one doesn't make it any less of a clusterfuck panic lynch.

I don't appreciate the comments about how I must be scum if CES isn't. Mafia is not a If=then system. Especially not from the guy who would be the alternate explanation for the scum motive besides me.

OGML What the fuck seriously. Do you care at all who gets lynched?

I am half-asleep typing this, I think the lack of sleep is starting to catch up to me, but I am seriously having second thoughts about this based on Mr.Setup and Mr. Bemnage-Looked-Too-Motivated-So-Let's-:effort:-harder.

Your almost getting lynched wasn't panic. It was building up over time. But why are you choosing things like this to complain/whine about? What is it telling you about who is scum/town?

What don't you appreciate about llamarbles theory? What does that say about him? A good bit of his theory is based on Poe. Is there something wrong with his Poe pool?

What gives you the idea OGML doesn't care who gets lynched? Don't you guys have the same suspects? Were you just yelling at someone to yell?

[Tammy]

I'll get back into this tomorrow (7:30 PM class got cancelled woooo). I've been thinking of stuff to post but I really don't have anything to say right now for some reason.

Anyone have things to ask me?

This is quite possibly the worst post in this game and one i don't think I have ever seen come from town.

I'm kinda in the same spot, where I don't have anything to add beyond what I've said already.

I'd be pretty happy if the day ended with a lynch of one of CES, OGML, or even Shadoweh. (The latter two don't seem likely at this point so...)

*Cough* Lynch CES *Cough*

It wasn't the I don't have anything to say by itself. I've made that post a dozen times. It was that coupled with the "anyone have things to ask me" that struck a nerve.

Besides, you know who you want lynched and have made that clear. But when your last post before this is that everyone looks town, it's especially odd. (not the everyone looks town, I've been there, but the passive posting)

[Tammy]

It wasn't the I don't have anything to say by itself. I've made that post a dozen times. It was that coupled with the "anyone have things to ask me" that struck a nerve.

Besides, you know who you want lynched and have made that clear. But when your last post before this is that everyone looks town, it's especially odd. (not the everyone looks town, I've been there, but the passive posting)

This is ridiculous and the fact that it's coming after I've posted an ISO that you of all people know damn well never ever comes from me as scum in million years is even more baffling. Asking to be engaged in the game is not even remotely as scumtell (BBmolla did something like this in Sherlock as town, from memory) so I have no idea where you're getting this from. And I don't see how my thinking lots of people look town is even relevant here considering how I play and considering how clear I've made those opinions over the course of the game.

In case you haven't realized, I've been posting passively lately out of a combination of being super busy, having nothing to say, and just generally being demoralized because of how shitty I've been playing overall lately. I hate the fact that I feel disengaged from this game but at the same time I don't really have anything to say.

So, what you're saying is that it's perfectly fine for you to tell me you're not getting warm and fuzzy feelings from my posts, tell me to towninate and suggest I'm possibly struggling day one when I actually think I started pretty strongly and town. Then accuse me of being a negative nancy and having a bad attitude when I was in a good mood, but when you make a scum post, I'm not allowed to question it. Kay. Because that's the gist of what I'm getting from your how dare you question me post.

I have never, that I remember, seen town ask for people to ask them questions. I've seen it a lot from scum. If BB did it as town in Sherlock, I wouldn't know that because I didn't play Sherlock. And if I did, I would have called him out on that. What does that have to do with anything anyway? (Actually I just ran through BB's iso, and you'll have to point out for me where he went "anyone want to ask me things?" He made a wall and asked for people to respond to it. He then asked why Tierce wasn't yelling at him. Neither of which are remotely the same thing to asking people to ask you things, when what you should be doing is asking other people things.)

And bringing up you town reading everyone is relevant to the point I was making. And you need to take a step back and actually read because I think it becomes pretty obvious what I was saying if you're not blinded by OMG HOW DARE YOU. It wasn't a criticism, and even states that in the parenthesis. Zach was saying that he can see where you're coming from because he doesn't have anything else to really say either. However, Zach has a scum read. He knows who he wants lynched today. He's already said the game could benefit from the day not going to deadline. I would totally expect someone in his position to not have anything else to say today. However, you don't know who you want lynched and are reading everyone as town. This again is not a criticism because hello! and not to mention yesterday I joked that we should no lynch because everyone was town. But you not knowing what you want to do and not having anything to say is not the same thing as Zach knowing what he wants to do and not having anything else to say.

But regardless, it wasn't the not having anything to say that struck a nerve. It was that followed by you asking people to ask you things. That passive "someone ask me something or anyone want to ask me anything" type post I've only ever seen come from scum. You're acting like I started calling for your lynch immediately. I said I've never seen that post come from town, and I haven't. On the whole I have more reasons to think you're town than not, but when you make a post I've never seen town make before I'm going to point it out and question it. I don't stop reading my town reads, even the ones I feel confident in my ability to read, and you know that.

But no, I'm not trolling you. I legitimately hated that post and it made me twitchy. But, I do also want you to be more proactive.

[Tammy]

I'll respond to some other things when I get home, sitting at a bar editing my dissertation fml, but this is not how I'd expect deasvail to respond to the case against him as scum. I have some things to say about the case in the first place but was waiting to see how deasvail responded before saying anything.

Empire - if you have internet and see this, will you tell me what you think of the case and deasvail's reaction?

okay later.

[Tammy]

I'll respond to some other things when I get home, sitting at a bar editing my dissertation fml, but this is not how I'd expect deasvail to respond to the case against him as scum. I have some things to say about the case in the first place but was waiting to see how deasvail responded before saying anything.

Empire - if you have internet and see this, will you tell me what you think of the case and deasvail's reaction?

okay later.

[Tammy]

So, if he thinks that ces is town and Llamarble is scum, why is he limping about not actually trying to get his scum read lynched?

Do you really think I've been "limping about trying to get my scumread lynched"? Because if so, there's a problem.

No, I believe you were limping about

not

trying to get your scum read lynched. And yes, I agree that's a problem, glad you recognized that!

What I think is a more interesting problem is that you get called out for limping about, and you don't actually then try to get the person you are scum reading lynhced. The person you've been misinterpreting and making silly arguments with but not actually trying to prove anything against. The person you warned should kill you last night but have not done anything with. Instead, instead, you get called out for limping about and what do you decide to do? Make a case against probably the easiest target save OGML here. You havent even talked to him all day save you asking why he had llamarble as a town read in Post 1282

Why in Post 1504 do you just question deas about his scum read on you? I've said for the past few days that I might prefer a lunch of you over ces. Tierce has mentioned that she would lynch you too, so why are you just questioning deasvail?

Post 1506 is scum posting. "I can't dismantle your thoughts if the only thing you say is you think I'm scum". Don't be that guy. Post 1509 is also pretty terrible.

What it very much looks like to me is that you were very satisfied to pretend to contribute today when it looked like ces was getting lynched and not you. And that once you got a few votes and more people started questioning you, you went uh-oh that other lynch I was avoiding might not actually happen, and people are actually starting to notice me in a negative light, I should probably do something, let's get aggressive and try to act town. Problem is I don't believe you believe half of what you're saying.

I don't understand why people are town reading nacho; I think it's a good lynch would lynch twice.

[Tammy]

@Tammy

I know you unvoted CES, and I imagine you're still willing to go back to him... correct me if I'm wrong. Anyways, can you give me a little insight on your Nacho read please. (Sorry if it means repeating oneself)

I don't trust nacho. I would be willing to vote ces, though I'm unconfident in my read there either way. But I've been going. Back and forth on him and nacho all day, thinking nacho might be a better vote, simply because there are a few more things about ces' play than about nachos play that I like. But I think both have a good chance of flipping scum.

[Tammy]

Okay, I'm going to wait to vote until I

sober up

here empires take on the deas/nacho thing.

[Tammy]

*hear

[Tammy]

By the way, Empire, Tammy: stop it, you two, this is probably one of the Towniest games I've seen from both of you and you have both been ridiculously busy; lower activity and participation is understandable. Yeah, you want each other to participate more, but just SAY SO instead of going on walls about it. You're either Town or GODMODE SCUM, and I don't think you're in any RL state to become GODMODE SCUM at this point. So give this game what time you

do

have and stop bickering.

Ok FINE but she said really mean and hurtful things to me

I do want to say a couple of things though @ Tammy

1) I thought it was pretty obvious that i was trolling you into towninating during our whole back and forth on D1 despite me saying I wasn't <_< I admit, I was a bit paranoid, sure, but I was never like actually suspicious of you or anything.
2) I brought up the BBmolla thing as a counterexample, though i did misremember the game, i thought he talked more generally than just Tierce. Regardless, I still maintain that it's not even remotely a scummy post and I HAVE seen town do it all the time.
3) The main reason that I'm overreacting frankly the last thing I want to deal with this game is paranoid bullshit coming from you about me when it should be pretty fucking evident that I'm town to anyone who knows an iota about my meta. You even said it yourself that I've dropped at least five of my towntells this game so unless you think that my scum game has magically and vastly improved from Rarefaction I (a game that has happened something like half a year ago now or something) you shouldn't even have doubt.

It was a scummy post. Nothing you can say will change my mind on this. Deal with it.

Read my last post because this bs reply was unnecessary.

And you know what, never mind. I had a while post typed up with a response to you but it's clear you aren't actually interested in doing anything other than "how dare you"

So yeah whatever. You made a scum post. I'm not going to stop trying to read you or anyone, and when you or any town read makes a post that strikes a nerve I'm going to question it. You know this. And since you know I'm town, you know it was genuine. This response is ridiculous, and I'm done and beyond annoyed.

[Tammy]

On the whole I have more reasons to think you're town than not, but when you make a post I've never seen town make before I'm going to point it out and question it. I don't stop reading my town reads, even the ones I feel confident in my ability to read, and you know that.

But no, I'm not trolling you. I legitimately hated that post and it made me twitchy. But, I do also want you to be more proactive.

Like for instance Empire, if you had read that line, you would know that I still think you're town so you can take your "I don't want to deal with your bullshit paranoia how dare you how can you think I'm scum" and stuff it.

[Tammy]

Another deadline scramble for a lynch.

Really guys? I don't even know anymore... just... fucking urgh.

This game needs more decisive decision making. We currently have like the opposite of that going on right now.

None of Benmage, Nacho, or Deasvail seem particularly interested in supporting a CES lynch.

Nacho's support in particular could have very possibly seen CES dead by now. The thing I don't like about a Nacho lynch at this point on top of my read of him is that by not supporting it, he's making his own death more likely. (Unless there's a reason for doing that as scum, I don't see that as a particularly great sign... you know in terms of the likelihood of flipping scum.)

That's the case now, but it certainly wasn't the case at the start of day when he didnt support it. There was no clear indication he would be the lynch. If he suddenly supported it now, it would look weirder than his sudden dv case. I've seen scum not support or go for their counterwagon all the time.

[Tammy]

Taaaaammmmy. Empire was drunk and he hasn't been having a good time IRL. Yeah, you thought it was a scummy post, you've talked about it at length, at this point it's just you two ranting at each other. Save it for Cerulean games?

But but I'm frazzled too. Actually, I feel like I'm getting paid back for every time I've responded poorly to suspicion.

----------------------

Okay empires reaction to the dv/nacho thing is what I was looking for. I had the same reaction to the case and dv's response, But empire's better at reading dv than I am so I wanted his take.

VOTE: nacho

So we should now have truly competing wagons. This places them at 4 each. Empire it's up to you to make the choice.

[Tammy]

There isn't. But scum-CES wouldn't have an issue claiming vanilla. Town-CES doesn't really bother because #YOLO.

I don't know how true this is. If he's not going to do it as town, he's probably not going to do it as scum either. And recently I saw him as scum get tracked to the kill and instead of claiming vt or anything to try to save himself even though at least one person thought the tracker was lying, he argued the viability of the role being in the setup.

[Tammy]

Yeah, it was the tracker. I could give you the link but it's at westeros and not on the main board but the one you have to sign in for, and I'd have to figure out which alt he is now.

If you still want the link, let me know and I'll post it when I get back from a run/swim.

[Tammy]

Just an FYI, I won't be here at all during deadline most likely, so whatever vote I put down will be final (thanks for putting the pressure on me, Tammy <_< ).

I aim to please

[Tammy]

I think they both have a decent chance of flipping scum.

[Tammy]

What's frustrating is that both of them left their vote on someone who isn't getting lynched. And I have a sneaking feeling they're both laughing at us trying to figure out which one we should lynch when they would both flip scum.

[Tammy]

I think they both have a decent chance of flipping scum.

I agree but I'm a waffly baby and I actually really want to get this right. I hope this turns out like the time we deadline lynched Zach in Castle Zar and he came back scum.

Yeah me too. Oh and since you're bringing the waffles this time, I can supply the syrup!

[Tammy]

I'm fairly sure he relies on rhetoric as either alignment, but the most he has done here is dodge the claim necessity (which he did Yesterday) and blatantly not claim when DV threatened to hammer and he was online Today. Not much pragmatism for scum CES in that line of thought, is there?

Ugh, yeah you're right in a sense but there's a lot of benefit to not claiming as scum generally (town are naturally going to be afraid of possibly lynching a PR + remember how people reacted to N's refusal to claim?). I think it's something he knows he can get away with too if he's scum.

I agree with this. I remember him telling me that he would mock someone who insisted he claim when run up. He was scum when he said that though, so dunno where I'm going with it. But I think the point is that I don't think the not claiming is a town tell. (I'm tipsy sorry if I'm not making sense.)

[Tammy]

Okay so for who's left. I have good town reads on: Tierce, Empire, Zach and Llamarble. Seriously if anyone of them are scum...fml.

I'd also like to believe that Benmage and deasvail are town. Benmage because of some earlier interactions and because I like to believe people have integrity when they say they do. Yes, I'm a sucker, I know. Also, deasvail is just reading like his town self to me mostly, though there are times when I go hmmm...

So really OGML, Nacho, CES and Shadoweh exist in this black hole of you seem pretty scummy are you plane of existence. The last three though actually work quite nicely as partners?

[Tammy]

I'll be around.

And, I know it's not addressed to me, but I've seen ces!scum doggedly go after a lousy target.

[Tammy]

Do you really think CES-scum would push on as lousy a target as OGML?

Yes. He did that in that Westeros game Tammy referenced from memory (Tammy can correct me if I'm wrong here).

No, you're right. I've seen him do it twice, but that is one game I was thinking of. The only caveat to that game is that it was multiball, but it was still a focus on bad play and disregarding towntells that were dropped (and it was the first vote he dropped in rvs and the lynch he pushed regardless)

[Tammy]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

How do you do that shrug?

[Tammy]

I fucking hope to the god I don't believe in that this is a scum flip. Otherwise, I'm going to bawl.

A+ made me laugh

[Tammy]

i know that's why it was funny

[Tammy]

also i'm tipsy

[Tammy]

Just stopping in to go WOOOOOOOOOO

I'm about to pass out though so its more like woo

But 48 hours ago it was HOLY FUCKING YES!

And now that nacho did come back scum, I wonder if there was something to ctd's comment to nacho about shadoweh "you're clearly paying attention", he said it twice.

Okay back to this later *sleep* now.

[Tammy]

In all seriousness I haven't looked at this game since the night phase ended and it's depressing to remember it exists. I don't think I'm up to writing something more extensive then I was wrong and shouldn't be allowed to make decisions. I will try to read over Nacho and see what there is to draw from there. I don't really understand how that lynch happened in the first place.

A good start would be why are you voting CES when you stopped lynching him yesterday to lynch Nacho?

Dafuq? A good start or you would be to read the game. I dont understand how you dont understand how the nacho lynch happened or how you could possibly be asking the ces question if youre ctually reading the game. But I seem to recall that you don't really read games when you are scum.

[Tammy]

I think I might have a heart attack if benmage ever acknowledges the part anyone but himself ever plays in a scum lynch.

[Tammy]

Shadoweh - Really really...now it is bloody obvious to me that you are legit not reading the game or my posts. How could you be confused why I voted Nacho and why would you think it was for that. I feel like you've made it your mission to just annoy me this game, and I just can't figure out why, if you're town, you're just not reading the game. You've shown time and time again that you just aren't reading the game. Reading it would give you the answer and you wouldn't be wasting my time.

For instance did you miss this? By the way, this is is just a smattering of my posts about nacho yesterday. The remaining ones are me interacting with him and very clearly not being satisfied with the answers. My posts yesterday are a virtual road map for why I voted nacho, and you're confused?

So Nacho / CES / maybeN until further notice.

I like this because I don't trust Nacho.

Last night when I was reading over the game, the sense that I got of ces today is that he's mostly arguing about argument types, and talking about how scum buddies interact and less about actual scum. CES - who do you think ogml's partners are? Reading his iSo I don't feel it as much but it's still there. (I still have some punts about him for sure coming back scum, not going to repeat them again since they're in my ces wall. I still like those things but he's capable of doing that as scum too.)

I need to think about it but I almost think nacho is the better lynch just because there are fewer things I like there. Additionally, I hate Post 1348. He left several colors at home in his attempt to paint a picture that lead to benmage scum because of the hammer. He totally left out me questioning the claim and target, vi agreeing with the points I raised and not moving, tierce not moving, and then the post Ben pointed out. That just is more scum motivated to me than town. I did like his reads posts, but I can't shake the suspicion I've had of him since early on, and I can't put my finger on exactly what but ctd's interaction with him is suspicious too.

I'll get back to this is just a little bit, but something just struck me as rather odd.

Nacho worked like hell to save N day one. By his most recent reply to me, I would guess he has a town read on CES. He's caught up in a silly argument with Llamarble in which he's not actually trying to prove that Llamarble is scum though that is where his vote is.

So, if he thinks that ces is town and Llamarble is scum, why is he limping about not actually trying to get his scum read lynched?

So, if he thinks that ces is town and Llamarble is scum, why is he limping about not actually trying to get his scum read lynched?

Do you really think I've been "limping about trying to get my scumread lynched"? Because if so, there's a problem.

No, I believe you were limping about

not

trying to get your scum read lynched. And yes, I agree that's a problem, glad you recognized that!

What I think is a more interesting problem is that you get called out for limping about, and you don't actually then try to get the person you are scum reading lynhced. The person you've been misinterpreting and making silly arguments with but not actually trying to prove anything against. The person you warned should kill you last night but have not done anything with. Instead, instead, you get called out for limping about and what do you decide to do? Make a case against probably the easiest target save OGML here. You havent even talked to him all day save you asking why he had llamarble as a town read in Post 1282

Why in Post 1504 do you just question deas about his scum read on you? I've said for the past few days that I might prefer a lunch of you over ces. Tierce has mentioned that she would lynch you too, so why are you just questioning deasvail?

Post 1506 is scum posting. "I can't dismantle your thoughts if the only thing you say is you think I'm scum". Don't be that guy. Post 1509 is also pretty terrible.

What it very much looks like to me is that you were very satisfied to pretend to contribute today when it looked like ces was getting lynched and not you. And that once you got a few votes and more people started questioning you, you went uh-oh that other lynch I was avoiding might not actually happen, and people are actually starting to notice me in a negative light, I should probably do something, let's get aggressive and try to act town. Problem is I don't believe you believe half of what you're saying.

I don't understand why people are town reading nacho; I think it's a good lynch would lynch twice.

And furthermore where is the hell would you get that I needed Empire to tell me it was scummy? Did you miss this post?

I'll respond to some other things when I get home, sitting at a bar editing my dissertation fml, but this is not how I'd expect deasvail to respond to the case against him as scum. I have some things to say about the case in the first place but was waiting to see how deasvail responded before saying anything.

Empire - if you have internet and see this, will you tell me what you think of the case and deasvail's reaction?

okay later.

Which should make it quite clear I didn't like Nacho's case and thought DV's response was townish. I didn't need Empire to tell me it was scummy; I wanted his feedback. I wanted to see if he had the same reaction I had. He did and that helped me believe that I had the correct reaction in the first place.

This you would know or would realize if you actually read the damn game.

[Tammy]

And the Nacho lynch was not out of nowhere; we had been discussing it all day.

[Tammy]

And by we, I mean the people who are actually reading the game.

[Tammy]

Can you tell me why you still think CES is scum with him?

Why wouldn't I think ces was scum with him? I only thought that nacho had a better chance of flipping scum than ces, but that they both had a good chance of flipping scum. I partially wanted nachos flip more yesterday because I felt more confident we could get that yesterday while we can get ces' anytime. But I think you are saying now that you can see nacho and ces working together quite nicely...

...but I can still see you working with them especially after benmage rose as a counterwagon to you started by nacho, or do you think nacho was bussing benmage?.

[Tammy]

I think Benmage is town. I outlined why a few posts ago. So your reasoning is that the Nacho lynch happened in the heat of the moment, and you think the blunder would have been forgotten if he hadn't been lynched right away?
.

No, I never said the nacho lynch happened in the heat of the moment, but with the resistance to the nacho lynch I felt better about being able to get the lynch yesterday.

[Tammy]

I find it mildly amusing that the person who has proven she's not reading the game over and over got annoyed at being asked to answer something shed already answered.

I'm fine with shadoweh or ces flipping today. Not gonna put him at l-1 right now though.

I still think there's something to the ctd interactions with nacho and shadoweh, and it sure does look like nacho tried to start a benmage counterwagon to shadoweh on day two. Unless nacho was bussing. Don't feel real great about that though. I'm just more suspicious of shadoweh as her play just oesnt make sense or town.

[Tammy]

What does that have to do with anything? You're a poster child for how being hypocritical isn't a scumtell. The only way I see CTD's posts is he was trying to hint that he knew I was town because he was scum to Nacho or something. The two of them had weird conversations about eveeryone. I think CTD was picking fights with him on purpose.

Benmage probably isnn't scum so he was probably not bussing Benmage. My play doesn't make sense as a person maybe, but town has the right to be irrational.

Point out where I said shadoweh is being a hypocrite and is therefore scum. Go on find it for me.

Did ctd have weird conversations about everyone? Me? Tierce? Vi? Konowa? Ces? Are you sure about that sweeping statement?

Ctd did not pick a fight with nacho about you. Nacho picked at him and his response was odd.

Also, where do I say you are not town because you're being irrational? Your play does not make sense because you aren't reading the game, you are not actually scumhunting, your anger or frustration reads fake, when you do criticize someone for their play it either doesn't fit with the game because you haven't read it or you're using weird and erroneous meta information, your play around ctd is suspicious also. It's also possible that benmage was a counterwagon to you started by nacho.

In short I just can't see how you're going to flip town, but I think this is the last time I'm going to respond to you. It's not productive especially when it looks like you're writing words for the sake of it so you can look busy instead of reading the game.

[Tammy]

VOTE: shadoweh

[Tammy]

CES - You said it's shadoweh and benmage at this point, but what happened to your OGML suspicion?

[Tammy]

CES and Shadoweh are pretty much equal on my suspect list.

[Tammy]

It would take a really lazy and shortsighted reader to think "oh we'll leave empire and Tammy alive so they can fight." it should be obvious that the bickering was over, as I was looking to him for feedback and we were working ogether and joking by the end of the day.

I thought zach was the obvious kill last night.

[Tammy]

Shadoweh why do you keep saying the last scum alive? Do you think there's only one left?

[Tammy]

Oh okay...I should just go to sleep.

[Tammy]

Shadoweh why are you voting OGML?

[Tammy]

Oh yeah the johhog kill question reminds me. I think ces was selective scumhunting in the way he treated vi's suspicion of johhog and nacho's. I'm pretty sure I brought that up already and he refuted it but I want to go back and look at it. Mostly a reminder to myself.

[Tammy]

Because he's the other likely scum. Do you want me to vote CES? I mean I could right now, I'm sure no one would be upset..
Tammy do you really think Empire has 0% chance to do something to set you off again? If neither of you is scum I agree that it's shortsighted, but it's still possible.

Oh that's what a vote means? Why do you think he's the other likely scum?

Do I have a chance to get paranoid about someone, yes, that's just me. Do I think it's possible I'll get to the point where I want to lynch Empire, very very doubtful. Are you sure you read that exchange and why are you fixated on it. You even misinterpreted it while it was happening and exaggerated what was going on. If your hoping to fan the flames of something so you can cause a distraction, you might just try to pick something else.

[Tammy]

I just wish I would have hammered Shadoweh day two. I feel like my sanity would be more intact right now and this game would be less irritating.

[Tammy]

Okay not getting that kill at all. I mean yes, he was pretty town, but he was also blocked night one, which means there's no way he made what we're assuming was a vig kill, which is what I thought they'd be searching for. I guess that also means he was pretty much near-confirmed town through some mathematical something or other I can't remember now in my tipsy state. Oh well, better for us.

I can't see myself voting outside of OGML or Shadoweh today, but there are some things I want to go over when I'm more sober and have the patience. Nacho could have totally been trying to defend his partner day one while CES minorly bussed him. Also CES dropping his OGML scum read yesterday and calling him partnerless even though he said the day before that OGML could be partners with Nacho is ehhhh.

But, I still think that Shadoweh's not reading the game and not really scumhunting is really suspicious. Also, think there could be something to the CTD interaction. Gonna have to check on that, probably tomorrow. Also, it's not unheard of to bus one partner while defending another, though I'll admit this is kinda weak unless OGML flips town then this could be something.

I'm leaning more toward OGML though. Nacho's defense of N seems even kind of odd for white-knighting, and CES's defense of Nacho the next day calling him a "turbobusser" makes it even more likely.

[Tammy]

Oh, also, also, this:

What's frustrating is that both of them left their vote on someone who isn't getting lynched. And I have a sneaking feeling they're both laughing at us trying to figure out which one we should lynch when they would both flip scum.

Well done you. It was too obvious and I was trying to complicate reasoning, mea culpa, etc.

thank you...thank you! Though if it is OGML, we had him day one.

But, I still think that Shadoweh's not reading the game and not really scumhunting is really suspicious. Also, think there could be something to the CTD interaction. Gonna have to check on that, probably tomorrow. Also, it's not unheard of to bus one partner while defending another,

though I'll admit this is kinda weak unless OGML flips town then this could be something.

Shadoweh - glad to see you're still not reading entire posts. Here's the important part bolded for ya!

[Tammy]

More pertinent, I'm looking into that hypothetical future where a town flip there happens because I think you would be alive in it to lynch me afterwards. If it doesn't happen then GREAT.

Shadoweh, you haven't been paying enough attention to me in games if you think I would just willy-nilly lynch you without thinking. I do think you're suspicious because you haven't been reading the game and you've been making really weird scum readings for people throughout the game, except for CTD which was accurate. When I'm convinced people are scum I don't use the words "this is weak...could be a thing..." And when I'm alive this far in to late game, I actually question why I'm still alive and start doubting everyone around me, unless I have strong reasons for thinking they are town and even then I'm looking at them sideways.

[Tammy]

I didn't say that! Just that I would murder you first.

You would kill me first? <3

And I've been reading the game for a full game day by now, I would appreciate if you'd stop saying that about me. Wasn't, didn't, sure, but am now. By weird scum readings do you mean thinking the scum were town or something else, because if you add in CTD it sounds like you just mean the scum.

By weird scum reads, no I'm not referring to the scum. But to some of the meta reasonings you've given over the course of the game. And I don't mean that just because you didn't trust me early on. I don't think that unless you know how to read me that I've been really obviously town all game long; I've been distracted. But you were using things I couldn't understand because they didn't fit.

But I partly think that Empire was killed over Tierce and me because we both were voting you yesterday and OGML thought that would continue and it would be his best bet. They had to kill one of us afterall.

[Tammy]

I wouldn't mind an early lynch today either, except for I don't want to get ahead of myself.

especially wshen i've been drinking