NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER
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PeregrineV Survivor
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PeregrineV Survivor
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PeregrineV Survivor
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PeregrineV Survivor
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In post 370, Thor665 wrote:I don't think you get to naked vote at this stage of the game - reads and thoughts please.
It's not naked, it's more an acceptance that Izraeil probably knows better than I at this point, and last time I thought they were scum, ignored them, and we lost.
Of course, an actual read will give me a better idea. Is there a reason you think he is particularly town?I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 375, Izariael wrote:In post 374, PeregrineV wrote:In post 370, Thor665 wrote:I don't think you get to naked vote at this stage of the game - reads and thoughts please.
It's not naked, it's more an acceptance that Izraeil probably knows better than I at this point, and last time I thought they were scum, ignored them, and we lost.
Of course, an actual read will give me a better idea. Is there a reason you think he is particularly town?
I'm not sure why you'd sheep me at all, honestly. I'm also a late-comer here, playing catch-up just as you are.
Did something about Scripten's behavior make you put more weight on my read or something?
Nope, haven't read the thread yet.
If I had listened to you about 5-off, he could have been gotten that much earlier.Also, in the game you linked, you were my top scumread and you were town... so there's that. I'm sure that's probably a reason why you were inclined to ignore my 5-Off scumread.
It could all be wrong, but for now, your being sheeped.
Yes, I took myI will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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I know it's only page2, but I so liked it!
In post 36, Thor665 wrote:I now support Csaro's lynch also.
Scripten's drunk post is also a policy lynch.
People should vote one or the other, my RVS stage is over.
I found Csaro's post refreshingly direct. What about them makes you want to lynch him?
Since when have drunk posts been a policy lynch?
Ok, that made me laugh.
In post 42, Aneninen wrote:Hi,
I haven't fokking read anything and won't do so right now because I'll go to work soon. However, I like the fact that there are 21 players here. Obviously, I won't self-vote so I can roll a d20 for a RVS vote.
VOTE: Boonskiies
Oh. Reasoning for the vote. We want to adopt a kitty and my sweetheart is talking about one who was posted on Facebook yesterday. If we had that kitty right now, he would vote on you. We must respect the kitty's will.
Your reason for RVS is fine. The fact that it is fake is not fine.
In post 43, Cho wrote:Cho claimed Mafia 2-Shot Even-Night Bulletproof Vigilante in the neighborhood last night.
VOTE: Cho
I believe the claim.
Is the even-night apply to the vigilante part or the Bulletproof part? The town vig needs this info to coordinate your termination.
Too early.
In post 48, T S O wrote:Caesar, you elephant, stop being serious so early!
We've got about 150 pages for that shit.
VOTE: CAESAR
You voted Caesar for being serious in his efforts to scumhunt?
I like this.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 46, TierShift wrote:Disclaimer: this is my first large game and I have no idea how to approach it.
This would be the scum approach to dealing with a previously unknown environment.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 388, Thor665 wrote:1. I found it annoying that he was taking derp fake claims serious and extending the derp fake claim discussion.
So you vote was because you found him annoying, but not scum?
2. Since always, for me.
I'll keep an eye out for that, since I see quite a few of them.
Your post here is shockingly empty.
It's page 2, what are you looking for from a page 2 read?
I could continue the discussion of the reviver and supersaint claims, but someone beat me to it. But, those don't interest me like Cho's claim.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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Pretty harsh page 4 criticism. What were the top 5 posts inthsoe 4 pages that points you to "town idiocy"?I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 382, T S O wrote:In post 374, PeregrineV wrote:In post 370, Thor665 wrote:I don't think you get to naked vote at this stage of the game - reads and thoughts please.
It's not naked, it's more an acceptance that Izraeil probably knows better than I at this point, and last time I thought they were scum, ignored them, and we lost.
Of course, an actual read will give me a better idea. Is there a reason you think he is particularly town?
Last time you ignored Thor, he was lynched in LyLo and Marvel Avengers and Town lost. What makes Izzy more reasonable to sheep than Thor, given you've been in the same situation with both?
Izzy posting style appeals to the way I think.
Thor I sometimes agree with, and sometimes not, but his lack of explanations sometimes come across as greatly scummy.
I think you are referring to Marvel Alliance and not the big theme we just had, and you are correct.
For this game, Thor has given more information about the basis of his reads, but I think of the ones he's had so far there is a 75% disagreement rate, if not higher.
Also, Thor is definitely not sheepable since he's voting for me, so there is that. His other reads that I recall were you scum and grayfoxx scum-at least those were the votes I remember him making. Which, given the back and forth between you and Gray/Csar, he either changed his mind somewhere or thinks you too faked the whole thing or he's scum trying to pick a lynch.
Which of those, I'm not sure yet.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 485, Muffin wrote:PerV, why are you voting Scripten but not pursuing him at all? You're "scumhunting" elsewhere instead of where your vote (and ostensibly your top scumread) is. Why is that?
It was a sheeping of Izreal, who I determined was town from a single/couple of posts based on a recently completed newbie game and I decided to place a vote while I caught up.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 486, Egg wrote:Pere, why sheep Izar?
374 and 494. I'm having a hard time determining if the vote is the problem, or the sheeping is the problem.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 486, Egg wrote:Pere, on Page 16, you can probably ignore RVS. Just sayin'
Yeah, but I had to start reading, and Page 2 was so full of fun. Plus, RVS/early game has a lot more infromation in it than people think. It won't mean as much now, but after a few scumflips it becomes more helpful.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 497, Muffin wrote:In post 494, PeregrineV wrote:In post 485, Muffin wrote:PerV, why are you voting Scripten but not pursuing him at all? You're "scumhunting" elsewhere instead of where your vote (and ostensibly your top scumread) is. Why is that?
It was a sheeping of Izreal, who I determined was town from a single/couple of posts based on a recently completed newbie game and I decided to place a vote while I caught up.
So you still think Scripten is scum? yes/no
Sure, why not.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 499, TobyLoby wrote:Why yes?
I'm actually working on my reads right now, but let's add in all the attention the 2 votes he has has garnered. It earned him a Thor townread, a Muffin inquisition of my vote, an Egg agreement with Izreal of the Scripten vote, and a TobyLoby questioning of the vote. Considering no one but Thor ever squeaked about Scripten prior to his 2 votes, I find all the sudden attention to be interest arousing.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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Varied and probably not very exciting, but here goes.
Players:
1. Aeronaut*- In some twist of irony has fewer posts than me. We'll see what the catchup police have to say about him, I suppose.
2. Alina- replaced? being replaced?
3. Aneninen- early scumvibes. Later, saying and doing the right things, but taking the meticulous post-by-post approach with no analysis of the posts along with the stunningly empty conclusion of Pere is scum (418). This can easily be compared to Thor's 477 with actual reasons (even if wrong).
4. Boonskiies- Probably scum
5. Cho- thought the mafia claim was good discussion starter. However, it never went anywhere after that, nor was it used to start discussion. For that, downgraded from town-rvs to null (I think psychologically that when scum claim scum it helps relieve their conscious about being scum. If others take it as fake/humor, so much the better. In any scumclaim cases, esp. RVS, I look to motive) Nothing has improved the null read, including the wagon on him.
6. GrayfoxxxxCsareo- I liked for town at the start. That diminshed somewhat by the TSO tunnel. Grayfoxx is still got some town sheen, and has not degraded it any since taking over. We'll see how it goes.
7. davesaz- Early scumvibes. Improved somewhat, but still hits me when I read some of his posts. There is scumhunting there, but it seems of the cautious type.
8. Egg- Liked his early push on me. His later self-doubt I read somewhat as town, but keeping your vote there after expressing that doubt takes away the town cred. This is one I'm be exploring more of later.
9. Garmr- probably town.
10. goodmorning- Another player I usually start reading with a town bias towards their posts. So when I read them and feel icky, not a good sign. Leaning scum.
11. Goofyd00d- Early scumvibes. Some of the things he says are contradictions in and of themselves. (295 and 455 are examples)
12. hephaestus*- skimmed and will catchup later
13. Izariael- Already discussed. early townlean, but high expectations expected.
14. Muffin- Torn here. Outing neighborhood protown, but votes Cho as scum same post. claims I scumposted without a definition of why it's scumposting (very similar to Aneninen).
15. Nero Cain- early townvibes. We'll see if these stay.
16. PeregrineV- So town! My God, so town!
17. Scripten- early scumvibes. Some wording makes me wonder.392- A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum. Stuff like that keeps me from calling you town.
18. T S O- I think he's town this game. Probably means he's scum. Not my issue, but not voting him right now.
19. Thor665- early townread, but then downhill (slowly) from there, as he votes opposite my opinion. Kind of used to that, so not a full on scumread for that at this point.
The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball (261 and 265) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.
20. TierShift- very early scumvibe, went away slowly. I see peeks of town, but not enough. Null for now, looking for more.
21. TobyLoby- Early null. The styling of some of her posts I think is town, but their delivery and followup are not there. It's like a one-way questioning but I don't think I've seen responses to the responses to her questions. Slight null-scum, but waiting for a strong read to pop.
More on this multiball thing- When otherscum have otherscum to hunt for, it's easier for them to look town. If it does turn out to be 2 scumteams, that would explain why most of the active posters aren't looking too scummy- they are also scumhunting. But, not crossing that bridge until we get to it, if ever.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 502, Garmr wrote:In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:9. Garmr- probably town.
This is new this is the first game you ever town read me.
Yeah, TSO too. And not Thor. Whole world is upside-down.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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Lol...not telling. But a hint, it has to do with that Big Marvel theme game we just finished.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 504, davesaz wrote:I have a feeling that there will be people you're reading that I would say I don't have enough information on, so still null to me. I don't think it is fair to call that caution though. I believe being honest about nulls is town while making up a read on little or no evidence is scummy. Not extremely scummy, so not enough to use that by itself as a read.
One of your observations about Thor reminds me of something I've seen at another site. I want to closely re-read the thread before commenting on this further, so this part of my post is largely a reminder to myself to come back to it. Can't spend that much time on it at work.
Yeah, I try to read early game for vibes, since early posts by necessity are info-light. With flips, they gain something. Obviously, more posting adjusts that, but I want to show the full range for the players that it applies to.
Spoiler:I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 510, T S O wrote:In post 507, PeregrineV wrote:In post 502, Garmr wrote:In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:9. Garmr- probably town.
This is new this is the first game you ever town read me.
Yeah, TSO too. And not Thor. Whole world is upside-down.
I thought you were townreading me in Marvel Avengers Alliance?
Looking back (since it was before the summer), I think you weren't town so much as you weren't as scummy as everyone else. At least that's what I got looking back at my own posts.
This time my read is purely based on nothing but your posts.
Am I right?I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 511, T S O wrote:Also, yes, the angriest young person ever here. Yes, me, my hand's raised.
*sigh*
Whippersnapper!!!I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 506, Aneninen wrote:@PeregrineV. Because of your catchup and your early reactions I "MissMarpled" you scum. Your list (501) contains quite a few strange things. Eg. Boonskiies is probably scum with no explanation. Goodmorning is leaning scum because she's "icky". Izariael: "high expectations expected"? Thinking that TSO is town that'swhy he's probably scum. Thor is scummy because he was calling the multiball. Toby is null-scum because of...?
Boon- Yes. Willing to hear why you think he is town.
Goodmoring is icky. Yes. It starts with 32 and 34. All smack-attack on Csar for asking the claimed reviver if he can self-revive.
Nothing to Tiershift for claiming or fakeclaiming or anything.
Nothing to Muffin about claiming or fakeclaiming or anything.
Nothing to Cho about claiming scum or anything.
Over half his posts are Csar triades about Csar responses to goodmonring posts about a role that goodmonring thinks Tiershift does not have.
No vote. For anyone. Throughout any of it.
How does that make sense for town to spend so much time on?
Izreal, covered twice, posts linked to at least twice.
TSO- I know my own limitations. Reading TSO correctly may be one of them. Any reason I should lie about that?
Thor- also covered. You want specifics ask specific questions.
Toby is nullscum because the styling of some of her posts I think is town, but their delivery and followup are not there. It's like a one-way questioning but I don't think I've seen responses to the responses to her questions. Slight null-scum, but waiting for a strong read to pop.
Just so we are clear, my readlist confirms that you think I am scum. And since you didn't say it, I'm going to note it as you disagree with the reads you questioned.(To "MissMarple" – I read an X player in a game. His/her gameplay was/is very similar to an Y player's one in another game. Y flipped alignment A. Therefore, X is probably A too. "MissMarple-ing" is one of the very few ideas of mine which has been working so far. In this case, X=PeregrineV, A=scum. His readlist confirmed my read anyway.)I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 514, Muffin wrote:This is specious logic and you know it.
I'm questioning your vote because it was a shitty vote, and the implication that I'm scum defending my buddy Scripten is just a transparent attempt to fling shit at the wall and see what sticks.
You think the vote was shitty because it was on Scripten, or because I sheeped Izreal? You are distinctly unlcear about the details, so I call it like I see it- you questioning the vote on Scripten.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 515, T S O wrote:In post 512, PeregrineV wrote:In post 510, T S O wrote:In post 507, PeregrineV wrote:In post 502, Garmr wrote:In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:9. Garmr- probably town.
This is new this is the first game you ever town read me.
Yeah, TSO too. And not Thor. Whole world is upside-down.
I thought you were townreading me in Marvel Avengers Alliance?
Looking back (since it was before the summer), I think you weren't town so much as you weren't as scummy as everyone else. At least that's what I got looking back at my own posts.
This time my read is purely based on nothing but your posts.
Am I right?
Ehh, probably. I guess being townread by proxy is a bit different to actually being townread independently here,
Yes, you are townier than scum-Bulba, town-Smarg, and obstinate-Thor.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 517, TobyLoby wrote:In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:11. Goofyd00d- Early scumvibes. Some of the things he says are contradictions in and of themselves. (295 and 455 are examples)
I don't see the contradiction between these two posts. The one one he says he tends to fly under the radar when there is a lot of action. The second post he says he sucks when there is a lot of activity.
So when others post a lot, expect less from him, or him to not be as good. When others slow down on posting, he gets better, and posts more, but then all that extra posting is increased activity, so he gets bad again....or something. Not down with the pre-excuses for bad play, seems like scum setting up to slough off any scrutiny.
Not a tell so much as not really a way for town to know it at this point. We use NKs to figure killing roles (mafia, SK, vig), so anything else is either hidden knowledge or unnecessary distraction.I've heard of the multiball tell. I've seen it once applied and used before successfully on scum, and I've used it as scum to try and lynch town working on the assumption. So it's all over the place for me. I especially don't know what to think of it when someone outright says it.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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Yes.In post 521, Muffin wrote:The simple facts are:- by your own statement you couldn't have had a scumread on scripten when you voted because you hadn't read the game and you parked your vote there while you caught up
Then, after catching up you:
- didn't try to convince anyone else to join you on that wagon
- didn't show any reasoning as to why Scripten is scum
- didn't post any analysis of Scripten's posts to highlight scum motivation for his posts
- No, and still haven't.
- Nope. It was entierly sheeping of Izreal + "17. Scripten- early scumvibes. Some wording makes me wonder.392- A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum. Stuff like that keeps me from calling you town."+ 500
- Why would I? At this point I'm arguing I don't have a town read on him, he gave me early scumvibes, and I find the interest in him interesting in and of itself. You tell me why he's town and maybe we'll debate the finer points.
Then, when called on your shitty vote by me you:
- tried to paint my attack on your shitty vote as a chainsaw defense of scripten
- posted a big giant reads list stretching something scripten wrote to fit your pre-existing vote
- I think I asked why it was shitty. Missed your answer. Link please.
- As stated, was in the middle of my reads list when I posted 500. My Scripten read while writing the list was as stated. My interest has gone up since.
I'm not sure how any of those things come from a town frame of mind.
pedit I don't have a read on aninen i will iso them and get back to you
I guess when you do an analysis of my posts you can highlight my scum motivation.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 529, Aneninen wrote:@Everyone
By the way, I have an idea. It's clear that due to the sheer size of the setup, not everyone are interacting with each other. Would it be useful if I tried to make a "graph" about the interaction frequency?
I like crap like this, so if you have the time/ability, I say go for it.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 542, Aneninen wrote:@PeregrineV, 525 – Yes, I disagree with most of your reads. I haven't got a solid read on Boonskiies at all. I got surprised that you have. Goodmorning and Tiershift are town according to my reads. I've also started to develop a townread on Muffin too, see above. Cho is a big question mark (by the way, she's a she). I checked one game randomly and she got lynched on Day1 as a townie. As for Izariael, what does "high expectations expected" mean? TSO is scum. I've already written about him. I might add: he keeps asking everyone about me but he hadn't provided a real case against me. ("This post is a trash" or whatever is not a real case.) Thor is very town and so as Toby, in my opinion. And yes, you're my strongest scumread. My vote is for you too.
Boon- Then analyze what you got on Boon.
goodmorning, Tier, Muffin, Cho- OK
Izariael- Check out her posting in the linked Newbie game.
TSO- So did I. As for lack of real cases, welcome to the club.
Thor- yeah, maybe. He's mostly town in my games and I always want to read hiim as town but we sometimes think so opposite it's hard to keep him there, and he becomes a scumread. That only helped in one game (where he was scum). So, yeah, pushing this one off for now.
Toby- the fact that any responses to Toby are not further responded to by Toby doesn't matter? It's like they don't care about the answer.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 548, Garmr wrote:In post 538, goodmorning wrote:
P-EDIT:In post 533, Garmr wrote:@goodmorning
Just curious why vote now and not earlier. You mention people earlier you feel uneasy about but didn't really push on them. I don't really understand a reason to hold back your vote if you find someone suspicious?
I like this question.
I was primarily focused on reading Csareo since he was responding to questions and I could play off the TSO thing.
As far as mentioning my uneasiness on people: one irrelevant post or off gut read does not a good vote make.
I've found I can have difficulty in Larges due to sheer scope of the playerlist, so mentioning people I'm uncomfortable within the momentis a new thing I'm trying; I should be able to put my focus where I want it and look back to see where I was uncomfortable with AND NOTICED someone in the past.
It's also a good way to mark things I may want to pursue at a later date.
Ok so you saying it's a playstyle thing your trying. It also crossed my mind earlier you might be using the neighborhood to discuss cases and that's why you weren't pushing as hard in thread. It got me thinking what warrants a vote to you? Because I use my vote as a pressure tool and I find threatening to vote someone if they don't answer a question can sometimes apply even more pressure to answer. So not voting till this late in the game baffles me.
Can you tell me in your mind what does a vote mean to you and how do you use them?
Yeah, he's trying to convince me of total playstyle change from here. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=25487I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 550, Muffin wrote:
Specious logic again.In post 544, PeregrineV wrote:A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum.
Explain how my logic is superficially plausible, but actually wrong.
Yes, but the vote is generating good discussion right now. I'll decide to push it if and when I do.
Because you're voting him?Why would I?
I've given my reads so far. Any shifts are too minor to bother with just yet. I voted him because Izreail did, and I had a townread on her. That was the reason. The facts stayed the same from my read, and had no effect nor were affected by my vote on him. So "stretched facts" is a stretch. And I will continue to surprise you, I'm sure.
No, that's not how it works. The onus is on you to explain why someone is scum. I myself have him pretty null, but you voted for no reason and then stretched the facts to justify your vote instead of just finding someone scummier to vote. That's not a natural progression that I'd expect from a town player.At this point I'm arguing I don't have a town read on him, he gave me early scumvibes, and I find the interest in him interesting in and of itself. You tell me why he's town and maybe we'll debate the finer points.
Pretty certain I haven't attacked anyone yet. Maybe goodnmoring, but it was more of a sarcastic observation. My vote is staying there because why not?If you aren't scumreading him why are you still parking your vote there? Why not vote one of the other players you're attacking?I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 557, Thor665 wrote:Please provide me a link to all the 21+ player games you have been in recently that were not multiball.
I presume it's a majority?
Let's find out together. Me being in them doesn't seem to have much bearing, so let's just look.
NY169 : 20 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY173: 18 players, 4 mafia + SK
NY172: 20 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY171: 21 players, 5 mafia (in this)
NY170: 19 players, 3 mafia
NY167: 17 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY166: 18 players, 4 mafia + SK (in this)
NY165: 24 players, 5 mafia + SK (ran this)
NY164: 24 players, 3 mafia + 4 mafia (in this)
NY161: 21 players, 5 mafia (in this)
NY143: 21 players, 3 mafia + 3 mafia (in this) (2011)
NY137: 21 players, 4 mafia + SK
NY134: 22 players, 5 mafia
It seems 3 years and 35 Large Normal games ago, there was a 21 player game with 2 scumteams.
So, yes, a large majority were not.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 558, Thor665 wrote:In post 260, Nero Cain wrote:baring multiball, I'd know his alignment and thus would have no need to be wishy washy.
@Pere - also, Nero was actually the first one to say the word.
So...yeah, are you claiming scum?
I feel like you're claiming scum.
I'm going to vote you on the basis you're claiming scum.
Nero used it as a logic example. You said "Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption"
There is a difference.
Your already voting me, so changing the "reason" of your vote is veryI will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 565, Scripten wrote:In post 559, Thor665 wrote:@Everyone - Pere claimed scum. I caught him. You may sheep me now.
Heh. I like this. Not yet ready to sheep Thor, but this is a good post.
Can you believe people can't figure out why I might have you as a scumread?I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 572, Boonskiies wrote:I'm almost positive it's multiball. My role basically implies it.
If your scumrole implies it,, then that's fine.If your townrole implies it, then saying so right away makes a difference in how we scumhunt.Blue Mafia Goon
Perhaps Thor has a similar role to you....I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 568, AxleGreaser wrote:Fluff: (a benchmark)
Hi, I am your Alina replacement, she didnt make any(zero) posts that I disagree with, so no Amish tell here.
However in the same way that Meta (see post 367) you are self aware of, and is modifiable, is thus usually completely null, then no Amish tell is null for me too. (@Muffin: have two cookies, @Iza: also I am also disappoint)
Spoiler: More fluff
RBS over (random bullshit phase)
In post 392, Scripten wrote:In post 368, Izariael wrote:
Top scumread would be Scripten. I'm irked by everything in his ISO. Non-committal, flimsy reads and a lackadaisical vote on top wagon are raising my hackles.
VOTE: Scripten
This looks like a vote for town cred rather than a vote based on actual scumhunting.
It's fairly early into D1, and you want solid reads on people? In a large?
Also, Cho was tied with TSO atthreevotes. I think I can deal with the guilt of putting someone at L-8 or so.
@Scripten
Please explain how you think that would get "town cred" and is not actual scum hunting.
(I fail to see your point of view) (I fail to see how you can hold your point of view.) (It feels made up.) Show me your perspective.
Also while I usually try not to tread in other peoples puddles, I am not fully up to speed, so pardon any size 12's.
Axle-Welcome!
Axle-Muffin is done debating semantics (556). But maybe you'll get an answer where I drew only criticism. Good luck with that!I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 556, Muffin wrote:Because if you actually go into depth, any rational player would realize that your argument falls on its ass if your definition of "town cred" is different from his. I'm done debating semantics with you on this point. Your logic is faulty and you know it.
Yes, you need a safe place to park it so you can pretend to be scumhunting. I understand.My vote is staying there because why not?
Axle will be taking up the first argument.
I guess we have different definitions of "safe", "park", "pretend", "scumhunting" and "understand".
And since he's only a null read, please inform us when he is full on town in your reads.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 577, AxleGreaser wrote:Didn't ask Muffin.
Don't expect an answer from him.
Surprised I got one from you.
Writing it off as a welcome party. (good social graces)
I made the same argument already, with the end response as shown.
In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:17. Scripten- early scumvibes. Some wording makes me wonder.392- A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum. Stuff like that keeps me from calling you town.
In post 556, Muffin wrote:Because if you actually go into depth, any rational player would realize that your argument falls on its ass if your definition of "town cred" is different from his. I'm done debating semantics with you on this point. Your logic is faulty and you know it.
Yes, you need a safe place to park it so you can pretend to be scumhunting. I understand.My vote is staying there because why not?
Makes sense that if you make the same argument I did, you'll get your shore 'o the Muffin wrath.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 582, Muffin wrote:scripten's a big boy, he doesn't need me to defend him despite your burning desire to argue with me about scripten's motives
ask him yourself, perv
Yet you are defending him.
The question is out there from both me and Axle. We'll see what he says.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 583, Thor665 wrote:In post 570, PeregrineV wrote:In post 557, Thor665 wrote:Please provide me a link to all the 21+ player games you have been in recently that were not multiball.
I presume it's a majority?
Let's find out together. Me being in them doesn't seem to have much bearing, so let's just look.
NY169 : 20 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY173: 18 players, 4 mafia + SK
NY172: 20 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY171: 21 players, 5 mafia (in this)
NY170: 19 players, 3 mafia
NY167: 17 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY166: 18 players, 4 mafia + SK (in this)
NY165: 24 players, 5 mafia + SK (ran this)
NY164: 24 players, 3 mafia + 4 mafia (in this)
NY161: 21 players, 5 mafia (in this)
NY143: 21 players, 3 mafia + 3 mafia (in this) (2011)
NY137: 21 players, 4 mafia + SK
NY134: 22 players, 5 mafia
It seems 3 years and 35 Large Normal games ago, there was a 21 player game with 2 scumteams.
So, yes, a large majority were not.
Adjusted that for how it was used in the discussion.
Adding in the other SK ones changes it to a 6/13 ratio.
Meaning, roughly, 50%
So...yeah, I think that is a safe assumption to have in your head Day 1.
Also, you called me scum for bringing up multiball...in relation to a discussion where someone brought up multiball...so, yes, I do think that's weird on your part.
And, really, "changing your reason upon consideration of new information is scummy"
Pull the other one, it has bells on.
I don't have a lot of sheep yet.
Why are people scared of this - he is declaring scum.
If you don't think he is then you should probably explain why you don't find the commentary scummy. Because I find it five alarm chilli level.
Except Multiball means 2 scumteams, as per the definition: "Serial Killers and other one-person groups do not count; the term is specific to scum groups of multiple players."
So, your attempt to use SKs to discredit me is pretty blatant.
Your attempt to use 24 player games as examples is also blatant. I included them for reference, but 24 is not 21, and the setup and balance for each is different.
So, try 25%. And recently, none of them.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 584, Thor665 wrote:Oh, or 4/7 if we only count games with 21+
Except you didn't say 21+. If you had, we wouldn't be discussing this.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 589, Thor665 wrote:That also doesn't matter. I don't even wish to get into a 'is or isn't this multiball' discussion and never did - it's not germane to any issue on the table.
If you have an opinion about Pere calling me scummy for mentioning multiball or how I'm calling him scum for doing so - that would be excellent discussion to have.
I'm calling you out on your certainty that this 21 player game is mulitball.
In post 261, Thor665 wrote:Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption, and second off being wishy-washy is actually pretty solid scum play.
"Safe assumption" is not mentioning it. It means "it is safe to assume".
Now you can discuss how you didn't mean what you said. Or something, I'm sure.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 590, Thor665 wrote:In post 126, Goofyd00d wrote:Considering 4 is the meta for almost garunteed, I would say 5 people in a hood contains a scum, and maybe even multi factions.
Here's another mention of multiball that didn't bother Pere.
Could be Goofy is scum.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 587, Scripten wrote:Uh huh... Because nobody makes votes just to gain good favor with the rest of the town, right?
Why would you think that voting you would earn Izariael good favor with the rest of the town?
His (intentional(?)) misinterpretations and the fact that he's ready to vote Thor for discussing multiball are huge red flags. Does nobody else follow why the latter is so scummy?
What did I misrep?
Everyone is trying to tell me why I'm wrong, but it hasn't worked so far. Give it a shot, though.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 599, Muffin wrote:In post 594, PeregrineV wrote:In post 582, Muffin wrote:scripten's a big boy, he doesn't need me to defend him despite your burning desire to argue with me about scripten's motives
ask him yourself, perv
Yet you are defending him.
The question is out there from both me and Axle. We'll see what he says.
i know, i need to stop arguing with my scumreads
Yeah, you started with 397 and have been digging your hole deeper ever since. :shrug:I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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Before I forget-
@goodmorning- I was scum in Amurika, so I had to dodge you. You made it tricky and hard to do.
Two of the games you linked you were an alt or hydra or something.
The last (graveyard) had all around bad play by most of the town, so not using that as meta for this game. Got any more?I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 605, Thor665 wrote:In post 591, Cho wrote:Do you understand this, or rather, follow my train of thought?
I follow your train of thought but find it very surface oriented.
The point isn't that he called me scum for multiball commentary - the point is how and why he did it considering the conversation it was brought up in.
Does that make sense?
In post 597, PeregrineV wrote:Except Multiball means 2 scumteams, as per the definition: "Serial Killers and other one-person groups do not count; the term is specific to scum groups of multiple players."
So, your attempt to use SKs to discredit me is pretty blatant.
Your attempt to use 24 player games as examples is also blatant. I included them for reference, but 24 is not 21, and the setup and balance for each is different.
So, try 25%. And recently, none of them.
I will agree the wiki defines multiball as notincluding SKs.
I will also say I have been in a game witha 2-player SK.
That said - if you look at my comment to Nero it clearly included the idea of 'any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role'
Also, if I had clarified SK - I understand that 'SK hunting' is also considered a scumtell (or SK tell) so I don't actually see the point of even trying to draw the difference here.
I saw what you said to Nero.
I saw what you said about the game.
Based on my experience, it's not multiball.
If you want to speculate there might be an SK in the game, I would wonder why you speculate that or why you care, but would probably agree.
If you try to speculate that Nero's actions point to him being the SK, then I'll tell you I don't get that.
I did not see in your comment where you were specifying a Serial Killer. You said Nero was not scumbuddies with Csar (259).
Do you disagree that my comment means what I said it means here? And if you do, please explain why.
Try this format
-Thor's comment (linked)
-What Thor meant
Then I'll be able to answer it, since right now I'm not sure what you are asking.
In post 598, PeregrineV wrote:Except you didn't say 21+. If you had, we wouldn't be discussing this.
Well...actually, yes, I said exactly that.
In post 557, Thor665 wrote:Please provide me a link to all the 21+ player games you have been in recently that were not multiball.
My bad, I did misread that.
I assumed that you wanted to point out 21 player games that were multiball, because we are in a 21 player game that you stated was obviously multiball.
You may now argue for the nature of 21+ games, but I'll state in advance that changing the facts changes the arguement, esp. about something like mafia game size.
So I should add 'lying to butter up a case' to your scumtells then
You're trying to defend yourself in a pedantic manner.
It looks scummy to me.
What's up with this? Why don't you walk me through how and why you actually think your catch on me is scummy and also why it doesn't apply to Nero or Goofy - that would be interesting to hear moreso than the weak word dance you're doing now.
-Sure, why not.
-Being exact about what you said and what I said in a printed forum game is kind of the point of the printed forum game.
-OK
-I think that you saying that this game is obviously multiple mafia teams implies some sort of inside knowledge of the setup that you did not relate to the thread at the start of the game. Most commonly, this is through a scum role designation of specific mafia (Blue, Red, Mafia A, etc.), and less commonly through a town role (Mafia A cop, Red Mafia Cop, etc.). However, I don't think it is in your nature to "slip", nor to be so bold nor so brazen about possibly having a scumrole. So, as stated before,In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball (261 and 265) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.
-I already pointed out the differences between mentioning, speculating, and stating. You've been pushing everything based on my 501 statement, and instead of just letting it go (which I do sometimes), I proceeded to point out why you were wrong. You've since continued to push for my lynch, not for actually being wrong in my opinion, conclusion, or summary, but because I have that opinion, posted that conclusion, and backed up that summary. Making this another case of (strength of reaction) vs (strength of initial post) (see Scripten vote).I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 606, Scripten wrote:It's actually hilarious how badly both you and PereV are missing what Thor has been saying. I'm just pointing out how obvious it should be to everyone else. All of these attempts to outguess the mod/setup are really just moot points.
What has Thor been saying? In your own words.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 609, goodmorning wrote:In post 604, PeregrineV wrote:Before I forget-
@goodmorning- I was scum in Amurika, so I had to dodge you. You made it tricky and hard to do.
Two of the games you linked you were an alt or hydra or something.
The last (graveyard) had all around bad play by most of the town, so not using that as meta for this game. Got any more?
Those are the ones we've both been players in at the same time.
You died before I replaced into Timeshift I, and I modded NY167 which you were a player in.
I still don't see why AMURIKA is relevant to this game or what point you're trying to make with it, and in Shadows I was in a hydra which the other partner abandoned after like 3 posts, so it's pretty much just me.
Tunneling is an extremely effective scum tactic used to avoid 90% of the rest of the players. The fact that 50% of your posts here are Csar tunnels is in contrast to the last memorable game with you, in which your town play was easily recognizable.
Assume I take you at your word that Grayfoxx is now a townread for you after all that, what's next on the goodmorning agenda?I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 614, Thor665 wrote:I also would LOVE you to point out where I said the game was obviously multiball.
In post 265, Thor665 wrote:
In post 266, Egg wrote:In post 263, Thor665 wrote:Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption
Why? Also, if you're right, isn't Nero more likely town for seeming to genuinely assume there is no evidence for it?
Why? Because there are 21 players in this game.
And I could easily argue that he's more likely scum for trying to act like there's no reason to think that because scum are the only ones with legit evidence about the question and he's trying to cover for that knowledge but overplayed his hand.
It's not obvious, it's a safe assumption.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 614, Thor665 wrote:I asked this: That said - if you look at my comment to Nero it clearly included the idea of 'any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role'
About my post mentioning multiball.
That you called scummy.
This is not complicated - answer the question. You're the one who analyzed my post and found it alignment indicative - why not expand on your work?
Show me your comment that clearly included the idea of 'any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role'.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 614, Thor665 wrote:Actually I'm calling your entire use of logic here suspect and pointing out the double standard you are using n applying it and calling that scummy.
You have responded with further proof that you're either not really reading the game or are trying to bluster through my issues.
I don't feel like we're actually talking yet.
You're not talking openly, you're offering up misrepresented or half finished thoughts and then waving your hands wildly in the hopes this will go away.
I mean, look at the quote above. I asked you to explain how what I did was scummy - you didn't actually. You even admit that I wouldn't tend to do that as a slip which leaves...what exactly? If it wasn't a slip I was intentionally doing it? Okay...why? And why would it be scummy as opposed to, say, a town breadcrumb or something? Like, the logic just does not flow nor is it an answer as to why you concluded it was scummy.
I'm trying to talk with you.
Why are you dancing with me instead?
Let's start over.
My opinion on Thor:
In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:19. Thor665- early townread, but then downhill (slowly) from there, as he votes opposite my opinion. Kind of used to that, so not a full on scumread for that at this point.
The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball (261 and 265) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.
Thor, what do you think of my opinion on you?I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 615, Scripten wrote:In post 612, PeregrineV wrote:In post 606, Scripten wrote:It's actually hilarious how badly both you and PereV are missing what Thor has been saying. I'm just pointing out how obvious it should be to everyone else. All of these attempts to outguess the mod/setup are really just moot points.
What has Thor been saying? In your own words.
Nah. I think you can figure it out. Actually, on that note, what part of finding it likely that this game is multiball is alignment-indicative? Do you think that scum have a better idea about the setup than town do?
P-Edit: Gorramit. Ninja'd by Thor.
In post 611, PeregrineV wrote:-I think that you saying that this game is obviously multiple mafia teams implies some sort of inside knowledge of the setup that you did not relate to the thread at the start of the game. Most commonly, this is through a scum role designation of specific mafia (Blue, Red, Mafia A, etc.), and less commonly through a town role (Mafia A cop, Red Mafia Cop, etc.). However, I don't think it is in your nature to "slip", nor to be so bold nor so brazen about possibly having a scumrole.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 630, Muffin wrote:Reminder that throughout this entire exchange where PereV is calling Thor scum, Pere has had his vote parked on a go-nowhere wagon.
The wagon that is now at 3?
I can actually argue with someone without thinking they are scum. I am married after all, and my wife has yet to NK me.What's the matter Per? Scared to vote Thor?
But seriously, are you reading my posts? Read 501 again and come back to me.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 632, Thor665 wrote:
In post 627, PeregrineV wrote:Let's start over.
My opinion on Thor:
In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:19. Thor665- early townread, but then downhill (slowly) from there, as he votes opposite my opinion. Kind of used to that, so not a full on scumread for that at this point.
The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball (261 and 265) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.
Thor, what do you think of my opinion on you?
That it is scummy, unsupported, a double standard (triple, really) and lazy whilst being used as a smokescreen for doing nothing.
Also - that you cannot even justify it when asked to.
Well thanks for that. Good news for you, if it turns out to not be multiball, like 75% of the 21 player games played in the last 3 years, then it was just me be dumb/scummy/paranoid/whatever.
If it does turn out that way, then we can argue about it again, I think.
What are your thoughts on my thoughts on the 19 other players I gave my reads on while lazily doing nothing?I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 636, Thor665 wrote:I do not find your desire to change up the conversation very functional - you ducked multiple questions and still failed to explain your logic.
I thought we started over?
And I explained the logic about all of it. If you want to continue to press that you do not understand what I am saying, then say so.
If you disagree, then say so (and I think you did).
If you want to say you meant this
In post 259, Thor665 wrote:Because, really the only thing I see is that it's mildly unlikely for you to be any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role. But that's all I get out of it.
when you said this
In post 259, Thor665 wrote:Because, really the only thing I see is that it's mildly unlikely for you to be scumbuddies. But that's all I get out of it.
Then say it. Or, say exactly what you meant using as many or as few words as possible.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 641, Thor665 wrote:
In post 637, PeregrineV wrote:And I explained the logic about all of it. If you want to continue to press that you do not understand what I am saying, then say so.
I literally just did.
In post 637, PeregrineV wrote:If you disagree, then say so (and I think you did).
That is also correct.
You do not understand what I am saying (the logic of why I said it).
You disagree with what I'm saying? Or do you disagree with the logic which you do not understand?I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 641, Thor665 wrote:No, I meant that when I specifically said the word multiball. As I said.
I put it in context to show just how silly your raised statement is.
Now please address it.
So when you said
In post 261, Thor665 wrote:Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption, and second off being wishy-washy is actually pretty solid scum play.
You meant:
In post 261, Thor665 wrote:Well...first off [the existence] of any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role is a pretty safe assumption, and second off being wishy-washy is actually pretty solid scum play.
In that case, probably best to say so, since multiball is a fairly precise term used to indicate multiple teams, not just multiple non-town killing roles.
In the meantime, I'll stick to my silly raised statement.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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In post 653, Thor665 wrote:In post 651, PeregrineV wrote:You do not understand what I am saying (the logic of why I said it).
You disagree with what I'm saying? Or do you disagree with the logic which you do not understand?
I have stated the logic as I understand it, and said that I disagreed with it and asked for clarification on the logic if such exists.
You are playing word games.
No word games.
And no, the abosolute best way I can explain it I already have:
-I think that you saying that this game is obviously multiple mafia teams implies some sort of inside knowledge of the setup that you did not relate to the thread at the start of the game. Most commonly, this is through a scum role designation of specific mafia (Blue, Red, Mafia A, etc.), and less commonly through a town role (Mafia A cop, Red Mafia Cop, etc.).
In post 652, PeregrineV wrote:So when you said
In post 261, Thor665 wrote:Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption, and second off being wishy-washy is actually pretty solid scum play.
You meant:
In post 261, Thor665 wrote:Well...first off [the existence] of any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role is a pretty safe assumption, and second off being wishy-washy is actually pretty solid scum play.
In that case, probably best to say so, since multiball is a fairly precise term used to indicate multiple teams, not just multiple non-town killing roles.
In the meantime, I'll stick to my silly raised statement.
Yes, that is what I meant and indicated it is also clearly what I meant when taken in context and you were asked to assess that claim and then address how it does or does not affect your read.
As I've said, a safe assumption that an SK exists is also an eyebrow raising statement, but since it is, IMO, more likely, less so than your actual statement.
I see how that could have been an interpretation of what you said. In which case,Your method of doing so was to repeat what I said to you.
Kind of shrug.
And then state that you're sticking to the claim.
I will take this to mean you find that insane as a possible interpretation of what I meant.
Please describe what YOU think I meant.YOU COULD HAVE JUST SAID THAT.
I'm not sure what the hell you were saying to Nero- maybe telling him he CAN be scum because it's a safe assumption that there is more than one non-town faction. In which case, not sure why you would think so, and not sure of your purpose in telling him that.I will haveLimited Accesson weekends.-
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PeregrineV Survivor
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