NY 189 - Flower Viewing Festival [~fin~]

[AxleGreaser]

@People

I have played with before.
Hi.

@people

I have only been stalking (in a not very creepy way)
Hi.

@everyone else?

How come you did not sign up for this game?

---

So this game has 5 day deadlines, 3 times shorter than normal.
So we need to play 3 times faster than normal.
I expect everyone else to make 3 times as many posts as normal, and then i will try for half as many.

VOTE: Shiro
Skip: < goes over and gives Shiro a great big wet puppy Dog kiss.>
Skip: <

Looks back at Axle

. ^._~.>
Axle: Oh. Ok then.
UNVOTE: Shiro

VOTE: Fro99er
Skip:<

Goes over and curls up at Fro99er's feet in the shade of a tree

.>
Axle: <

Sighs

>
Axle So who can I vote for?
UNVOTE: Fro99er

Axle: ... . . .
Axle Ahh

VOTE: Slaandar
You beat me last time. -_-.

Lets dance.

[AxleGreaser]

Like seriously people. It's possible Axle is scum. But it's not off post #8.

And yes,

I'll sit here and defend the shit out of him

if you keep suspecting him off of his entrance post.

Only if you want me to vote you over it. How do you know my alignment? yeah I know the specificity of what evidence you said is restricted to the first post and its interpretation but this is mafia.

TLDR: They're big boys, you don't need to protect them from me.

[AxleGreaser]

Fro99er before you open the spoiler *stop playing mafia for sec.* Ok so it might take 5 mins, to stop but then stop for a sec.
now read the spoiler.

Spoiler: @Fro99er

:-/

Lynch me people, and find scum on my wagon.

Ok, so you're up to saying, "lynch me", to prove a point.
Ok I am playing too.
and err what if i am town and perfectly willing to, (perhaps if i dont play it right), get lynched, while combing my wagon for scum?
and or getting hard town reads from the genuine pushes?

On my first brief read through all I got was muddy frog prints, and some people I am not totally familiar with playing tag.

[AxleGreaser]

Axle's also here. He responded to me once, but now he isn't responding.

I will chat if you like.

pedit

Well, my head says that if you guys keep spamming, people are going to get apathetic and leave.

seems likely.

Re: Speed I expected (if i was lucky) was a little faster.

[AxleGreaser]

but there's other people here that are interested in your thoughts in the game.

Yeah i gleaned one thought, if Frog was town, and he felt town, he was smoking as he went by me.

The people who piled on me early, did so with about the right amount of .... "Oh look there is a bonfire over here anyone want to jump on?".
If they are scum they were trying to look town, by doing that which they would normally do as town. Not expecting it to run to completion.

I still dont have all the people I am not used to lined up in my head as individuals, but i think is aw plenty of looking over their shoulders at who else was on the wagon.

[AxleGreaser]

You don't say. It's 5 day deadlines, of course they have Day Chat. Probably by an encryptor, I suppose.

No they have post 2. :\

Mafia team have daychat.

[AxleGreaser]

Axle plans everything. He claims in post 8 he has read you (by saying everyone else he hasn't read didn't sign up for the game). Now he claims in post 327 he doesn't have everyone lined up????????????

AXLE IS INFORMED, PEOPLE. He read ups on things!!! For him to play dumb here is :/

Yeah, I have claimed I read everyone, I have claimed that in my meta (see first post first game), it is probably glean able from the signup thread if you try.
That is different to me being able to read a real time, conversational, playful thread amongst people who know one another and look for the subtle things where only one (or perhaps two of them) are only pretending to play but are actually looking for ways to mislynch.
That requires a profound mental model of what feels right for that human to say at that time.

I will get that and i will read more past games.
As you are aware, I have been doing other things lately and not ONLY waiting for this game to start. So I was less bored and did less reading than average.

get a grip.

[AxleGreaser]

Frogger why do you think I'm scum? I must have missed it in the huge pile of shit reasons people are scumreading me.

299 is like the opposite of how I feel. I guess that's all.

Re 299: You may know, or think you do, that i could make that post 150 as scum. It is however a thing not a lot of scum players would do.

However

@Spiffeh

This is odd.

You are not going to wrap your had around the Frog situation

Ok not even gonna try to wrap my head around this Fro99er shit because I'm too tired to try and understand it rn.

BUT

This is town af. Scum only benefit from townies defending them so I don't see him saying this as scum.

How do you know it is town defending me?

[AxleGreaser]

inb4 realizes i'm a hypocrite for now calling out Axle's post #8 which i defended as null until I got more info

LOL

[AxleGreaser]

Axl I got to say I agree with froggers your posts do seem odd

Yeah The game so far is different and my response is different too.

[AxleGreaser]

The only reason I don't want to flash lynch Axle is because I need to figure out his scum buddies.

Moderation in all things Fro99er.

[AxleGreaser]

You are not going to wrap your had around the Frog situation

Ok not even gonna try to wrap my head around this Fro99er shit because I'm too tired to try and understand it rn.

BUT

This is town af. Scum only benefit from townies defending them so I don't see him saying this as scum.

How do you know it is town defending me?

I meant it more like: in a world where Axle is scum, Frogger would be town (don't think you'd be scum together), and Axle would probably let Frogger continue defending him.

damn thought I found something.
That is either very good or true.

[AxleGreaser]

You are not going to wrap your had around the Frog situation

Ok not even gonna try to wrap my head around this Fro99er shit because I'm too tired to try and understand it rn.

BUT

This is town af. Scum only benefit from townies defending them so I don't see him saying this as scum.

How do you know it is town defending me?

I meant it more like: in a world where Axle is scum, Frogger would be town (don't think you'd be scum together), and Axle would probably let Frogger continue defending him.

damn thought I found something.
That is either very good or true.

Oh and BTW

The specific bit I am claiming is good or true is strictly limited to "in a world where Axle is scum, Frogger would be town"

(I make no claim nor representations about what i would or would not do as scum. You need to read my games if you want to work that out.)
Also being true, doesnt rule out a scum PM, but its start.

[AxleGreaser]

From personal experience this is bad practice.

preflip association is TBMK canonically bad.
What less bad is slow playing a read, so that when it does flip it has associations. Whenever it doesnt bite your arm off when you fail to get them, lynched, it might even be good.
A bit like feeding line to a fish, or not striking at the first nibble.

[AxleGreaser]

@EchoEcho

Can't scum not do this?

Assuming that has the number of negaitives in it, that i need for it to mean what I want it to.
Will it help if I assert that I hope to hell I can do that (and more) next time when i roll scum, or I am in deep doo doo.

Hmm, fine. Let's observe him more closely then. I'm the only player voting him now, so it's going to take more than that to lynch him.

It would also, I hope take some reasons better than those you gave.

@Sakura

I don't even know why you guys are scumreading him.

If your reads list is right, and

I'm on the opposite end of this actually

then faced with the same problem they ... pick someone ,and move forwards..

me i am sad
My 'dance partner' has not turned up at all.

[AxleGreaser]

*Tips fedora*

I can dance

I was thinking more of the kind of dance you do in the pale moon light, and you stare into the whites of their bloodshot eyes, while circling left.
but Ok.

Axl I got to say I agree with froggers your posts do seem odd

So be specific which ones seem odd in what ways?

[AxleGreaser]

So be specific which ones seem odd in what ways?

It not a post it is a general lack of complexity that I came to expect from you then again we haven't had that many games together and the day is still young.

Like in Masquerade when I replaced in I read about 5 of your posts and was pretty much 99% sure you were town. I can't get that here. At least not yet. It might be because you haven't found something that pings you yet.

#1

Which would be logical since nothing significant has happened yet

You appear to have found your own answer

#1

. As my scum game also had complex posts alignment indicative seem unlikely without more detail than that.
To be fair in masquerade, i was also replacing into to fully out of RVS game, with Thors push on Pere (the eventual lynch) running full steam. And i walked through that to have pings on 2 scum in my first 6 posts. So yeah i had substance to work with in that case.

However please explain why or how you know nothing significant has happened yet or what that means.

[AxleGreaser]

Hmm, fine. Let's observe him more closely then.

"When you look into a still calm pool, it is not the pool that looks back.": Axle

Hi,
it seems you've been added to my dance card.

[AxleGreaser]

The problem I have with Axle is his coasting and fluffing.

I have a cure for that (the problem that is)

Here is you knowing as fact that, my theory discussion is "is unfortunately not very correct."

The best he has provided theory discussion that is unfortunately not very correct.

You seem to think you know that as such an absolute fact that you can just say so, and even without whatever your status normally is people will just assume you're correct.
Being wrong about theory wouldn't make me scum and without any effort to find out if i am knowingly wrong, or blah blah else, what you go is posturing. (fluffing even)

I am pretty sure you also assume anything i do that you don't understand is fluffing. I may be wrong about theory and more, indeed I am sure I am not right about lot of how I play mafia as I do in my mind(best judgement) keep getting better at it. However I am pretty sure rather a lot of what I do is not fluffing. And even the stuff that is pretty much straight up fluff has a purpose. The purpose may not serve you, or help you but it helps me, so blow it out you ear.

Did that help?

[AxleGreaser]

However please explain why or how you know nothing significant has happened yet or what that means.

It means that I am still null reading everyone thus for me nothing significant has happened.

Well I kind of agree, what do you think you ought do about that?

[AxleGreaser]

@YO Lurkers

Fashionably late to RVS has been shortened.

Players will be prodded after 24 hours of inactivity during the day,

pedit: Oh cool.
Hi
honey your home.

Now to read your ninja'd post.

[AxleGreaser]

On my first brief read through all I got was muddy frog prints, and some people I am not totally familiar with playing tag.

I am disappointed Axle.

Well given that up to that point 261 you found nothing to comment on that I had not seen.
I am sad that you are telling me that you are dissappointed, but I would not take it too hard if i were you.

Your vote however seems like it might be better than my vote, but then you had some content to work with when you chose.
So time will tell.

Do you have any small opinion of Echo Echo yet? (not asking for read... just...)
I dunno I am itchy, but its situational bad vibes and memories of a game I played badly in a long time ago, that are coming back to me.

[AxleGreaser]

Okay I am on board.

UNVOTE: Slandar

unvote again Fro99er and Shiro.

---

I, probably, will never be bothered to post all my thoughts so I will just make vague screamy noises in the direction of Davsto.

VOTE: Davsto

This is a great wagon no one needs any reasons at all .....

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Davsto

[AxleGreaser]

Does "read" mean you have a read on someone or you've read their games as like a meta thing

Yes it is thing that happens i read lot of games. Frogger is aware of that. I did pregame to this read something from most people I didnt know. Thus here(link) I knew Echo echo was brand new and is also what the first para of my first in game post alludes to. Frogger made thing of it I addressed it.

Boring. the end.

If it seems weird where it comes from (at frogs end), the last game i and fro99er played together, I was scum and won from a nearly no win situation.

[AxleGreaser]

Why do people scum read things they don't understand instead of requesting clarification to actually read someone's thought processes instead of just their words

I dont know why.

Also I can make about 39% sense of axles posting which is definitely an improvement

Could you please tell me why?

[AxleGreaser]

^^This meta post has been brought to you by the letter G, and the number 3!

-_-

The reply to question or the question itself makes you "-_-" ?

[AxleGreaser]

So Axle how about some reads?

Well there are the ones already in the thread.
First post RVS'd 3 people think i can get quickish reads on. They were all unvoted here 429
327 talks about reads from what happened early.

This ones not in the thread, but 431 seems accurate, has some buts that oi think would be rare for scum to say so it reads as town, but I think it is uniformed about Fro99ers meta. Angry young man is a possible response from receiving a scum, PM. Fro99er looks a fair bit like Fro99er. There are some corners in his play i might not quite follow his train of thought around. but IIRC thats not unusual either. Lots of people have played with Frogger. So it will pan out.

Echo Echo was ~~~~~ me, but when I poked around in memory it felt like a different occasion I was wrong, and just being rubbed the wrong way.

Davsto, is rubbing me the wrong way, but I havent sat down today and read the thread hard enough for todays reads.
and domestic duty calls for a bit.

[AxleGreaser]

I honestly didn't even read the post, I was complaining about all the meta posting

But I'm being an unnecessary distraction right now so I'll stop that, sorry.

FWIW I like this post. SHows good awareness. <making toast for someone else, who needs it, now.> back then.

[AxleGreaser]

The people who piled on me early, did so with about the right amount of .... "Oh look there is a bonfire over here anyone want to jump on?".
If they are scum they were trying to look town, by doing that which they would normally do as town. Not expecting it to run to completion.

I still dont have all the people I am not used to lined up in my head as individuals, but i think is aw plenty of looking over their shoulders at who else was on the wagon.

Much reads, very wow. The only read i got from 327 was that you think frog is town.

Well ok if you read harder it also says that I had looked at the people who piled on me early did it right, which early on D1 is about as good as town read gets.

That would mean 9 the naked vote felt Ok. 12 Frogs vote had some reason (not certain I understand it but assuming I did it felt about right.)
Frogs jump off, 27 AGain Ok, he jumps at stuff like that, IMO. Sakura 30 no reason but definitive statement (an appropriate level of escalation)
37 Ok. Also now with people getting off, I see no reason in the thread that scum would have got off. Perhaps 150 would make someone go find out why i said that and then change their mind about who was easy.

The rest of the thread up to there I largely read as people who know one another playing tag. Even if they are scum they were not to the best of my observation being overtly scummy and pushing any agenda at that point.

[AxleGreaser]

So how was i supposed to get this out of what you said?

how about the same way this guy did?

The third quote is a pretty decent analysis of his wagon. I can't say I fully understand the fourth post,

The fourth, post alludes to any situation in which things are smoking as they go by you. They appear to be headed for a crash and burn. It also alludes to the speed at which Frogger was drawing conclusions.

My suggestions would include reading and thinking; being town, and pattern matching against your own legit thought process.
alternatively asking questions is good too.

[AxleGreaser]

iai should die

vote: iai

I have no objection, and if i wasnt on something resembling counter wagon my choice would be hard.

[AxleGreaser]

@Echo Echo

I understand why Frogger townread him off Post 8,

Please show me where fro99er did this.

Frogger mistakenly townread him for a null action because he saw Axle perform it a couple of times before.

Please show me why you think fro99er thinks this "because he saw Axle perform it a couple of times before.".

[AxleGreaser]

You've seen my scumgame, did my entrance into this game mirror it at all?

Why would it? Especially if you are aware of what that entrance looked like?

[AxleGreaser]

@I am Innocent

I don't disagree with that and I'm getting a town vibe from you, hence my unvote.

Welcome to my town pool, (my views on IAI changed since 542) could i nterest you in voting the Shiny Davsto Wagon
Low mileage almost brand new.

[AxleGreaser]

I would think if I was scum, my scummates would be nervous...or bussing, being a 5 day deadline and no counterwagon and all. So either way, who is the scum on my wagon?

but you also think.

Yeah can't believe 3 of them jumped on my wagon like that.

if you were scum couldnt your team mates have been caught flat footed.

[AxleGreaser]

@Shazzam

I like fair bit about your 431
What I am missing is why that made you think Frogger got a scum PM.
I would like that include how 361 (and the stuff around there) fits into that.

[AxleGreaser]

In short, I think you've made a bad case, but you're acting like it's a good case because you want to lynch him for other reasons.

I actually say in 431 why it made me think Frogger is scum.

Why is it bad case a scum made with intent and not just a bad case?

"Lynch him for other reasons" is an open ended statement I don't know what you think the other reasons might be.

[AxleGreaser]

Town Reads are
Slight Town Reads for MarioManiac
Those who have done townie things which I can't still pull the trigger on to call townie are
Null
Scummy -

please explain how Mario got into that category.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... b%5d=25801

[AxleGreaser]

Scummy - Shiro

Also what leads you to have this read.

[AxleGreaser]

I mean I think it is wrong but still liking the thought process

@Shiro

While trying please to ignore any wrongness.
Could you highlight which bits of "thought process" you like?

@Busybodies and nosy parkers.

Also to be clear this question to Shiro is about Shiro's alignment not Shazzam.
basically anyone who thinks they need to know at this time the purpose and direction my questions are taking me would need to ask.
odds may be low that I will answer you at this time.

[AxleGreaser]

Town Reads are
Slight Town Reads for MarioManiac
Those who have done townie things which I can't still pull the trigger on to call townie are
Null
Scummy -

please explain how Mario got into that category.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... b%5d=25801

Mario's entrance was right as my wagon was heating up, and also being in that last game with me and pisskop and salamance where I was scum, the easy thing for scum Mario to have done would be to agree with others and stuck a vote on me, instead he started a wagon against salamance who was one of the 2 biggest cheerleaders for my wagon.

You had 3 votes 451 Salamance had just voted you at 450, why would it be easy for him to scum pile onto your wagon?
Don't scum usually spread out a bit?

His reasoning was

LE RESISTANCE

which would be pretty easy to just go back on later.
There is no commitment by MM4 to opposing your wagon.

Id call your wagon picking up speed to be 458 460 477

The situation when Mario entered was
3 votes, especially if the last one (Salas) was as you suppose a scum vote, that was not yet much thread sentiment at all.

[AxleGreaser]

Shiro do you always post so many images as town? (serious question I want links)

LOL

http://oi61.tinypic.com/2rqm05f.jpg (Oh btw that was Shiro agreeing with you that garmr was scum IIRC)

[AxleGreaser]

Look at how easily shiro and spiffeh get on my wagon, Mario could have done the same, instead he goes after salamance, a slot I'm very concerned about as salamance is right, he knows my scum game better than anyone on this player list, yet still thinks I'm scum.

Yeah but if as you say Sala is scum I don't know why you expect scum:Mario to have jumped on as well, and you expect it so much that him not doing so is read as town.

[AxleGreaser]

I find it more likely that scum would just blankly blame someone in the middle or end

It is fakeable though so no strong feelings just an observation but yea

Ta. That is what I was looking for.

[AxleGreaser]

I find it more likely that scum would just blankly blame someone in the middle or end

It is fakeable though so no strong feelings just an observation but yea

Ta. That is what I was looking for.

Shiro is confused

Axle is confusing. Apologies.

In 648 I was looking for a place that if I poked there and you were scum you might not be bale to answer the question in a way that i 'expected'. In fact you didnt answer it in way i had expected as i had not seen that particular piece of "thought process". You get bonus good points for that.

Spoiler: counterpoint

If I had replied that was not the kind of reasoning i was looking for, it would mean your jedi mind trick had failed

[AxleGreaser]

First i am going to point out that Echo Echo has amde 8 times as many posts as you so there are more chances you can find stuff to point at.
and then i will examine your first point.

Frogger, I'm townreading you.

Shut the fuck up.

Seems a bit buddyish. "I'm townreading you, so you can't scumread me".

and it seems that if you are correct that both you and Echo Echo dont know fro99er very well.
Well actually I am not sure who is buddied by being told to

shut the fuck up

.

249
Does not fit your buddying theory.

Drive over the thread like bulldozer seems a more apt description

Re 268 No I am pretty sure people getting apathetic and leaving a highly spammy post filled game is thing that happens....
Here is link to guy that claims to be apathetic already... 217

yet you claim more contribution (even if as it is as he said spam) is just better?

Trying to convince people to post and help less.

TLDR: 669 seems to be jamming square peg in a round hole.

[AxleGreaser]

I am going to assume 673 is an addendum to 672 and "their" refers to IAI.
k.

and yes i am not highly impressed by the theory that scum have to form counter wagons (in 12 hrs or less)(work commitments etc don't count for some reason?) or else the current wagon cant be on scum....
because once that is the default theory the obvious way to stall wagon on scum is do nothing.

[AxleGreaser]

I highlight in 431 that he is much too sure that you are scum for things that do not indicate scum in any way. He is so sure he wants to 1v1 you for the day. That is why it looks like he has reasons he's not telling us for wanting to lynch you, and the obvious implication is that he's scum, because it's Day 1. Only scum have undisclosed motives Day 1.

Uh ok, but you are going to explain to me how scum can have motives to want to lynch one person in particular D1. (especially with a bad case and day chat.)

Spoiler: me guessing wildly... and failing utterly

Your hypothesisng a night 0 role cop, and I would have role they want to lynch but me claiming it wont ..... nope.
So they'd have to want me dead because i am renowned.... nope.

Frogger who has day chat has this great to him case, that you know is bollocks and he wants to 1v1 me so much he just does it without checking out if its good idea i n day chat...

Nope i am going to need actual examples of possible motives scum can have to 1v1 me with case you say has "things that do not indicate scum in any way".

Scum doing the opposite of what would logically be considered to be in their best interests is rare, especially towards the start of a game. And as I've stated before, 12 hours or less seems to have been doable, but it didn't happen. By my count, 6 people posted who were never on the IaI wagon, while the wagon was building from 3 to 7 votes. That is half of the players in the game who were never on the IaI wagon. Seems like enough to me, but it didn't happen.

Yeah I dont bank on Wifom either. But combining avoiding beetle juice (appearing because of the pressure) Needing to actually find and think of good enough counter wagon. Needing the people who have the thread pull or skill to pull it off being in the thread. Does IAI, even have time to discusss it and say "yeah guys i really am going to play so save me". IF the wagon on IAI was on scum, Lots of plausible stuff can wind up with some delay.

I am mainly making sure that

12 hours is quite a while in this game, and I think quite a few of the players in the game have posted during that time. A counter wagon definitely could have started imo.

That it COULD have started does not mean anything certain.
and that you sliding (getting dragged) over that line, here 606 when prompted to start analysing the wagon as if it is definitely on towny gave me a nervous tick.

[AxleGreaser]

Actually, after reading this I have the exact same question.

If by "the exact same question" you mean as me, then perhaps you don't.

This is the bit that matched in my head the kind of reasoning Shiro could have if Shiro was analyzing the game.

I find it more likely that scum would just blankly blame someone in the middle or end

I think you are wrong about BOTH Shiro and Sakura *being* scum. (probably wrong pisskop, but I havent looked at him hard yet)
I think the reasoning in 606 is just fine and _indicative_ of a town thought process.
Is it fakeable? Yeah sure. I am sure I have faked that much depth before.

[AxleGreaser]

VeeGee has not picked up his role PM and, as such, I am searching for a replacement. He may remain in the game if he returns before a replacement is found.

[AxleGreaser]

I hate every other wagon here besides IaI, Mario is choice 2.

Without going too white knight about it unless you want too.
What wrong with the Davsto wagon? I didnt like 669. Which post or posts did you like?

[AxleGreaser]

Basically by the second half of the catchup you came off as a voice of reason/town leader, so it doesn't surprise me that a scum or two (shiro/spiffeh) followed you on my wagon.

Voice of reason i can buy, Town leader however is kinda a meh reasoning, i haven't been leading anything and if anything my vote was a sheep of sala, so i dont know how you get that kind of impression from that.

@Axle: I'm currently trying to sort IaI, Davsto would also be a good position for my vote if in the end i think IaI is town.

I like voices of reason.

I am about busted and going to sleep. (1am)
I have similar position in that
I am currently trying to sort Davsto and IaI would also be good position for my vote, if i think Davesto is not the best D1 lynch.

I think the other wagons,..... smell.

[AxleGreaser]

smell == people finding totally obviously BS places to park their votes.
== Wagons with bad reasons.
== people asleep at the wheel.
== ...

[AxleGreaser]

smell == people finding totally obviously BS places to park their votes.
== Wagons with bad reasons.
== people asleep at the wheel.
== ...

Yet u don't see that with mine....right

Well no of the existing wagons I like yourd and the Davsto one as my D1 lynch.
I they both wont Fly, Id probably go outside and vote new wagon.

[AxleGreaser]

How was I lurking. I woke up to 17 pages. No way I could catch up before work or during lunch so I waited until after my 4 kids went down for bed and I could devote a couple of hours....all within about 24 hrs of the game starting.

I work
I have a family

Scum whoever they are also have those things.... yet you claim the lack of rapid counter wagon means you must be town?

[AxleGreaser]

What do u like about mine axle?

At post 600, I had quite different first look opinion.

My views from 542 up to then (on about 1 read through were that you had started playing.)
Why you hadn't been as unknown. (also not all that important as there can be reason, and that is IRL so its none of my bees wax)

I didn't like 601 and it made me reconsider and read it all again.
602 don't like it. No swayed and don't like it.

I even wondered with how suddenly the wagon sprang up... What if you're scum. And the wagon went from nothing to something so fats no scum got on....
WAT do?

I dont like your 603 case.

Hey what if i am looking at the counter push right here....
It is long enough after the sudden jump in size it doesn't look like a panicked reaction.

As you say you had IRL commitments. Why was there no scum counter push? becuase the guy in question had IRL commitments and
hadn't even stated hey guys I am worth saving, in the QT yet. I see no safe assumption there should have been a counter push by now at all.

[AxleGreaser]

Oh BTW if what I post is a bit gobbledegob tonight, then i can probably translate tomorrow morning.
I may even wake up in 4-5 hours after i go to sleep. I sometimes do.

[AxleGreaser]

There's something about sheeping the reads of someone following the wagon you started that seems particularly dissonant but I can't put my finger on what

That bears thinking about.

[AxleGreaser]

I am currently voting Davesto. I am about to work out if i want to vote IaI more.

Davesto is a really a quite shiny wagon, (lurker and meh/ew posts) I am little sad it has no more general appeal.

---

Why IaI's development of the Spiffeh wagon smells bad.

TLDR:

Long bow?
IaI's filter reads like hes catching up
but if I just read between the lines of 540 567 592 594 602 603 it seems the spiffey read was fully formed to begin with.
I am fine with that, people reading the thread finding scum then drilling down to get the specific extra clarity you need is good play.

But it does not read like that, it reads like a trap well sprung.

---

Reality as seen by Axle

This is perfectly valid description of events that a towny might have.

I actually like everything about BananaCucho after I voted for him (he has a post similar to Axle's and I like his Frogger progression)

Spiffeh votes banana in post 38 >>>Starting at post 45<<< Spiffeh likes what hes seeing.

Keep in mind my votes were only about 2.5 hours apart.

and 2.5 hours later he reconsiders and unvotes. States why, with reasons that start AFTER his vote.

How has IaI characterized this?

IaI asks this question....

I actually like everything about BananaCucho after I voted for him (he has a post similar to Axle's and I like his Frogger progression)

Which post was that?

which IaI later redefines to mean this

I try. Have you answered my question yet on the post by Banana where you started town reading him?

45 is NOT where he started to town read him. 45 is the first thing Spiffeh liked that when read with the other things that happened in 2.5 hours lead to a change of mind.

What I dont see is an effort by IaI to work out what Spiffeh was doing.
What I do see is an effort to make it fit the hole.

So post 45 you

think Banana is town

, but that isn't what your saying in 105.

nope nope nope that is not what Spiffeh said.

Spiffeh said rather long time ago

I actually like everything about BananaCucho after I voted for him (he has a post similar to Axle's and I like his Frogger progression)

That is where the

information

the read is based on starts.
You dont know when he did or should have realised the read was now different. You seem much more interested in having wagon thats not yours, than you do in finding scum.


You are pretty keen for other people to find the scum on your (assumed to be town) wagon 601
I don't see you actively trying to sort that out yourself.

Feels bad smells wrong. Looks like a good D1 lynch.

[AxleGreaser]

UNVOTE: Davesto

VOTE: I am Innocent quicksand.

[AxleGreaser]

UNVOTE: Davesto

VOTE: I am Innocent quicksand.

When you see I'm town, who is the scum on my wagon?

pass for now.

[AxleGreaser]

UNVOTE: Davesto

VOTE: I am Innocent quicksand.

When you see I'm town, who is the scum on my wagon?

pass for now.

I want this information now. What do have to hide? Town has no problem making stances, but scum do.

cry me river.

I have significant filter dig in some other part. AT the very least you would have to explain how me analaysing that hypothetical would be alignment indicative.

[AxleGreaser]

I feel good about my town read and Axle ATM. Axle, your 747 makes sense and feels like a genuine observation instead of one that was made up. I don't think that was I am Innocents intention however, as his post about Spiffy seemed like a genuine inquiry and could have just been a misunderstanding.

Your Dave train is gaining speed however and will continue to gain speed. All aboard!

Even spiffeh agreed with me which makes the whole axle case either a clown move or scum move. Still trying to figure that out.

No spiffeh did not agree with you

Keep in mind my votes were only about 2.5 hours apart. I first responded to things concerning me, reread the post vomit that had occurred, and adjusted my vote accordingly.

If you claim he is agreeing with the facts of your case
and my dismantling of it is a rubbish clown move.

Err how come your vote has moved?

[AxleGreaser]

I take that back.

There

are

were

only two on it, Slandaar and Axel.

I need more from Slandaar, and Axel moved to IaI.

Sakura, do you read IaI as town now?

FTFY:

FYI:
Slandaar and Axel : Voting the non contributor. Then the 679 was 671
STILL only me and Slaandar.

Then with pretty nearly no new information....
Just lately..... 743 744 748 750 766

[AxleGreaser]

Also Axle's vote switch after the Dave wagon took speed gave me some uneasy feelings.

Well i had some. When the ground moved. For no apparent reason.
Where did the spiffeh reads go? and why?

[AxleGreaser]

Coming from the clown who says my scum game is lurking but refuses to unvote me

Nope I believe you were in fact busy with IRL.

Then you turned up and played your scum game just like I outlined.

[AxleGreaser]

For someone soooooo interested in who might be scum on they're wagon when they know as fact they are town....
I see no active interest by you in for instance examining Shiro.

I do see you wanting other people to make posts running with the hypothetical that you are town.

[AxleGreaser]

@Axle,

I didn't have a read on spiffy. I was interested in I am Innocents observation on him and joined him in voting Spiffy

You asked me to join Dave's wagon before. I had for a second before following the spiffy idea.

Now I'm back because I wasn't reading Spiffy as scum and he unvoted the biggest wagon (a town read of mine) and you said his wagon was still shiny so I don't see why that would bother you. You jumped off when me and one other person voted Dave I believe.

This town read of your is IaI, who you sheep voted earlier(504). And you voted Spiffeh when he was Voting IaI(609), and unvoted him when he limped off that wagon after coming under pressure for it?

That does not feel right to me.

[AxleGreaser]

Also Axle's vote switch after the Dave wagon took speed gave me some uneasy feelings.

Well i had some.

When the ground moved. For no apparent reason.

Where did the spiffeh reads go? and why?

Just me and Echo, and then you unvoted.

For no apparent reason

[AxleGreaser]

votecount 1.18

Davsto (5) - Slandaar, BananaCucho, Echo Echo, Sakura Hana, Salamence20

For those of you keeping score at home, this was me, Echo, Slandaar and Axle when Axle jumped ship

Yeah, bite me, i am interested in the dismantling of the IaI wagon.

I have at all times stated I like both wagons.

[AxleGreaser]

EBWOP This me highlighting what the problem was.

Also Axle's vote switch after the Dave wagon took speed gave me some uneasy feelings.

Well i had some.

When the ground moved.

For no apparent reason.

Where did the spiffeh reads go? and why?

Just me and Echo, and then you unvoted.

For no apparent reason

[AxleGreaser]

So Axle, a supposed you who has been calling ppl to get onto Dave wagon, why would you be worried about ppl jumping onto the wagon for

No apparent reason

since it's been you calling ppl to join you?

Its D1 wagon, I have thin reasons for thinking Dave iss scum i could easily be wrong.
Just as I am writing the post, to pressure(no I think its more than that) IaI the ground moved under me.
While i was writing it (time from 739-747), when i went to submit i saw votes.

I saw the spiffy wagon evaporate... and my Dave wagon suddenly get thrown a bone.
"Quick look behind you" is trick I stopped falling for many decades ago.

So yeah I unvoted with the reason quicksand. (I didnt want that to be the distraction, I wanted to discus what was SCUMMY about how IaI went about making his case on Spiffeh.

[AxleGreaser]

Also Axle, did it bother you this much when I am Innocents wagon grew so quickly for no apparent reason in the first place?

(BTW this is a genuine question, not an accusation because I don't remember and that's a lot ofnposts to go through and I'm curious of the answer)

I Am Innocent (7) - Ricastle, pisskop, Salamence20, Sakura Hana, Spiffeh, Shiro, BananaCucho

It was fast, but the game is, the three voters before you had not been pinging me up until then. You had earlier. I didnt see that wagon as an answer to anything.
The day needed stuff to happen, running up some low vote count player would do. In 542 I said as much.

The situation now from my point of view is different.

[AxleGreaser]

A three vote wagon losing two votes is hardly an evaporation

A two vote wagon getting two votes sure you could say that was a bone but I think you're exaggerating a bit

What you're saying doesn't lessen what it looks like but I'll give you the benefit of tbe doubt because this argument is quickly becoming pointless.

It is when it is its main protagonist, and nothing happened that would lead me to think that his claimed reasons for the wagon were explained/resolved.

[AxleGreaser]

A three vote wagon losing two votes is hardly an evaporation

A two vote wagon getting two votes sure you could say that was a bone but I think you're exaggerating a bit

What you're saying doesn't lessen what it looks like but I'll give you the benefit of tbe doubt because this argument is quickly becoming pointless.

It is when it is its main protagonist, and nothing happened that would lead me to think that his claimed reasons for the wagon were explained/resolved.

To me that makes it clearer the case of Spiffeh was never really believed by IaI. It looks like convenient sham.

[AxleGreaser]

@Noone

I wanted to discus what was SCUMMY about how IaI went about making his case on Spiffeh.

I still do.

@I am Innocent

I feel good about my town read and Axle ATM. Axle, your 747 makes sense and feels like a genuine observation instead of one that was made up. I don't think that was I am Innocents intention however, as his post about Spiffy seemed like a genuine inquiry and could have just been a misunderstanding.

Your Dave train is gaining speed however and will continue to gain speed. All aboard!

Even spiffeh agreed with me which makes the whole axle case either a clown move or scum move. Still trying to figure that out.

No spiffeh did not agree with you

Keep in mind my votes were only about 2.5 hours apart. I first responded to things concerning me, reread the post vomit that had occurred, and adjusted my vote accordingly.

If you claim he is agreeing with the facts of your case
and my dismantling of it is a rubbish clown move.

Err how come your vote has moved?

[AxleGreaser]

ALSO point of Clarity, I had problems with the votes before 747 I pressed submit, to be sure iw as eeing the whole thread exactly then swapped my vote in 750, i had seen, 748 but my problem was the other wagon jumps.

Catching up

Even though he didn't state it, this is an unvote of I am Innocent.

UNVOTE: Spiffy
VOTE: Dave

So just because I unvoted for someone that makes you change your mind?

yeah ....
I went blink blink blink. made no sense to me.

Indeed, i had think about if i really wanted to go down the 747 if you were doing things like 704 as it felt a bit like appeasement.
That people (IaI) would then decide nah... my reasons dont make sense to me anymore even though i claim to believe Spiffy confirmed the facts of them was unfathomable.
That he then considers me criticising the case he *just* walked away from clown move.... also fails to ring true.

[AxleGreaser]

Regardless the movement of both wagons is gonna be interesting after flips for some VCA later down the road IMO. So I like that a situation like this happened.

TLDR:

QFT

Spoiler: please open this spoiler in LATE game and read it again

TLDR: QFT.
<clown_hat status = dons> Late game

if

you have a problem. And I am dead. Read what happened here... or I may be very grumpy.
I cant know whats going to happen, but its quite possible this, now, is key. So when you have the wisdom of hindsight look here >with fresh eyes< again and decide what you see. /delusion grandeur over.
Note: it is a habitual mistake that players of all alignments make, over estimating the importance of events around them and this may be me making that mistake, or me being right. Time will tell.
</clown_hat status = removes.>

otherwise for now as it is not late game ignore it totally as Axle is a clown. Dont bother guessing what I may be seeing, its absurd.
Nope i am not clarifying this at all period.

[AxleGreaser]

This is indeed quite possible. Why do you keep trying to use post-flip speculation logic pre-flip to justify not lynching you? It's nearly convinced me that I should be voting for you instead of Salamence because it is as ineffective as mere platitudes.

If i anlayse my actual D1 content based reads on that wagon.
Ricastle, is VLA but did something before they left. 433 Whats a baymax bTW. So null.
Pisskop
Sala
Both gave the tree a shake and got it up to 3. Up to here I wouldnt care if the read was basically fabricated to make something anything happen. Town would do that becuase duh town, and scum would do it to pretend to be town.

The next 3 458 460 477 Happened pretty whoosh. If had to guess, whoosh is not scum indicative. Whoosh is scary for scum. They might struggle if they have all missed the boat to get any town cred for scum lynch. They might worry if to many of them were clumped up in the TMI pile where its weird how all those guys knew not to lynch this exceptionally scummy dude(Who then flips town).

So in those 6, I don't see scum. Well scum could be there, but not much if any better than random. It certainly weighs quite small compared with my read based on their actual play and reasoning.

So yeah ^^^^^^^^^^^^ That is an actual anlaysis of a wagon.
Yours may well be different as you could have different reads based on prior content and reasoning.

Superficial mechanistic cookie cutter, wagon analysis... smells bad.

[AxleGreaser]

Echo is town.

I had stuff to comment on. I just didn't because it breaks my reading up which is why the comments I did make are so short and generally don't say much . I might revisit them at some point, maybe. The vote is good because Davsto just came into the game and voted the flavor of the minute with no reasoning then left. The reasoning posted in the thread was bad, so, he had been convinced by bad reasoning (I assume), posted no original thought and voted the flavor of the minute so yeah. Good vote especially when you sign up for a game such as this with short deadlines.

It's hard catching up 500 posts, but this one caught my eye as really town. And a good point on Davsto. Going to finish catching up, but I'd put my vote here if I had to before finishing the catch up.

It caught my eye, and is good part of the reason I was on the Davsto wagon.

may i commend to you the IaI wagon. It is shiny too.

[AxleGreaser]

referring i think to IaI being unable to climb gracefully of the spiffeh wagon, with towny looking reasoning....

I as scum have a difficult time naturally admitting when and how I'm wrong.

Thoughts?

yeah his dismount looked awkward to me.

@Flubber

If its something else please clarify.

Banana is more null than I'm comfortable with them beinf

*shrugs*

I dont know why you expect him to be less null. Do you usually get strong town vibe from his style? I haven't looked into that one yet.
but yeah you seem to be scratching all my itches.

Hi, ....

[AxleGreaser]

@Frogger

Spoiler: LOL

Frogger Holy shit with the pre flips

It's what I do. Every. Game.

May I commend self flagellation as form of Pavlovian conditioning. Works for me.

[AxleGreaser]

Banana is more null than I'm comfortable with them beinf

*shrugs*

There is limited meta but quick skim of the game 1628 with flips leaves me concerned.
possible explanations include, this isn't the road to rome, game size, RL, and ...
But i already have two pet wagons and I know I RVS'd 3 times but there is a limit.

What is your vote doing?

[AxleGreaser]

I hated the timing of Axle's jumping off Davsto onto IAI,

Look at the post i made before i went to bed 711 See where that is going ... waaaaaay before any speed got on the Davsto wagon.
Look at 739 a topical comment on the thread.

I write 747 it takes me while to read verify and compose. 42 mins even. (inc coffee or whatever I cant remember)

Then as I am pressing submit, I find the ground moving.... in ways that look scummy.
So I press submit check exactly what has happened while i was composing stuff then vote.

What do you expect?

Check my actual posting on Davsto, that looks like a half hearted fake push?

Sheesh.

[AxleGreaser]

IAI is the scum counterwagon to a town wagon on Davsto

Please reread the thread.
There was no wagon on Davsto. Just two guys pushing it. (and not much to go on.)

IaI took off as the only serious wagon with support. It faltered and i didn't like how it faltered. Made me think it was right all along.

[AxleGreaser]

it takes me while to read verify and compose. 42 mins even.

You seem to be awfully concerned with TIMESTAMPZ AND TIMEZONEZ

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx rude words elided.

that better be a big wink.....
play this game, not some past game.

BTW you are the one calling me out for the timing of my vote change.
I am the one asking you to look at the content of the posts. PKB?

[AxleGreaser]

Idk, im having a hard time parsing the "Oh noes 2 ppl voted the person i think is scum, better vote someone else" as town.
But im also having a hard time thinking why scum would do that unless Davsto is also scum.

How much do I believe each thing, was i in the process of prosecuting a case i had been working on. Do I really care if you mislynch me that much. Who does or does not give shit how it looks. Do you have an explanation why as scum i would do that?

Try reading my actual fucking case PLEASE

trying to lynch scum based only on who voted when before any flips is just bad.

I am pretty sure if you go examine my scum meta you wont get "this guy panics" as a read.

[AxleGreaser]

play this game, not some past game.

I am.

I can't have some fun in the process?

I can't actually believe you took that seriously axle

yeah but have lolok at 867.. some people seem to be, when there are actual reads based on actual content in the thread.

Also have reread, of your earlier play, and then remember I have no idea how drunk you were, or what kind of drunk you are. I get really mellow.

Finally how seriously did you take me taking you seriously? You know how many levels deep i play.

[AxleGreaser]

What i mean is that Axle and Davsto are probably on the same team, and i rather lynch Davsto for info first as i have a stronger scumread there.

Lining up lynches, is bad and if Davesto flips scum ,and then you drive it through, you are going to be dissapointed. But hey if you do would you then lynch three people i tell you to if i flip town... cos I will.

Cool you too frogger.

[AxleGreaser]

There's also the fact that i made some sort of mini case to explain the reason i didnt like Davsto before the vote switch happened and it could've been influenced by it. There's a lot of things Axle isnt taking into account.

You are correct i had been quite hot to trot on my new IaI read and i clean forgot you had made point about Davesto.

You are still claiming though that for me to be scum with Davesto 671 is me pushing buddy?

and you are not lit like Christmas by IaI getting of his Spiffeh read at all?

[AxleGreaser]

Eh i made a mistake in my scenarios, is more like if Davsto is town then Axle can't be scum, but not necessarily viceversa, sorry.

Ok consider me backing up in anything I said since then.

[AxleGreaser]

I hope you're not blind to this kind of progression, you focus on who IaI unvoted, not on who he voted and why.

Why am I scum again sal?

Haven't you noticed the amount of devotion I have given this game?

unvote spiffeh
Vote salamance

Why am I scum again sal?

.

Ok so that could be IaI going and looking under a rock somewhere.
Looking under rocks is what townies and scum faking it do.


however
He claims to have made this progression 540(lloking for something specific starting here IMO) 567 586 603

PS - I think I caught spiffel in a lie, so that's where my vote is

So he claims to think he caught scum in lie.
and

Even spiffeh agreed with me

but now he was pressuring for content?

He has at least produced some content, it is now sals turn

I am not buying what he is selling.

Now it is true Davseto is selling nothing at all.
And the bits I called as scummy are.

If you ask I can go back and rip the crap out that Davesto post... but i did what felt was proportionate at the time. As its bad but can i know its scum bad or bad bad.

IaI feels like intent moving around behind the actions. I am voting IaI.

[AxleGreaser]

You. Are. Reaching.

Thats NOT my case at all. Indeed my case is NOT about you or Echo Echo. So why you mention the timing of those votes is ?

My case is about the reasoning and the lack of consistency behind IaI's push on Spiffeh.

My problem is outlined in 747
added to in 827
and most recently where I explain how IaI getting off spiffeh to go look under some other Sal rock 785
claiming that "some content" satisfied, what previously was described catching scum in lie. 619

It reads to me like a made up pile of rubbish.

[AxleGreaser]

Lining up lynches

You seriously cannot believe she's scum lining up lynches.

which would be why I didnt say or even hint at that.

[AxleGreaser]

I think I'm really tired if that's the case but I'm pretty sure that bothered you before but I could be wrong. You probably dropped that and I didn't realize it

I'll revisit tomorrow

Dropped what?

When I voted I said "quicksand", flagging but specifically AVOIDING talking about recent vote changes. Especially those of anyone BUT the person i made a case on.

other people raised the changes ,and largely ignored my reasoning posted in the thread.....

I am weighing whether or not getting drunk and going postal, seems like a plan.
I think i am joking, but a 'port' really seems like good idea.
I really expect I wont as i think that would hurt my win con.... but as a plan.... it has redeeming features.

[AxleGreaser]

Also, the reason I'm not posting while you all are is because my timezone is BST, so about when all of the posting is done is 1AM-5AMish for me, sorry about all that.

Whats BST in GMT (0?) I am +10 I am sure someone overlaps with you.
My problem has been with what and how much not the interaction.

[AxleGreaser]

It's a point against me, but we're already past that.

Spoiler: for LOLs

WHile it is a bit of punt(mild guess).
Can I get any smart arse points for seeing the same thing but wondering why you bothered with an Alt?
Well, either that or you get style points in my book, for a quality impersonation. (postgame)

Bold votes probably wasn't a great term but the point still stands!

Does putting an exclamation point at the end suppose to make u more believable or something?

5 star contribution

Agreed.

also not entirely novel as an observation.

Spiffeh's posting style stands out a bit to everyone elses as he uses a lot of exclamation marks and has a couple nicely structured posts.

Please show me where fro99er did this.

Spoiler: My Answer

Post #8 is scum.

Vote: Axle

I highly doubt that. But it's solely meta.

yeah he said that, and either he is scum for not knowing what he means from one minute to the next(nah BS) or he actually meant

Spoiler: why not

I highly doubt that meaning that drawing that conclusion from that information is crap. (post #8 is scum, is a question that is independent of my alignment.)(yeah actual mathematicians can think like that. sufficient necessary conditions, premise=> conclusion, logical relationship or not. he said it was crap. )

FFS people. Axle could be scum, he could be town. I have no problem with an axle wagon if you all want to start one.

What I have a problem with is people actually saying they didn't like his post. That's just bullshit and looking for a reason. He could still absolutely be scum, but not based off one post on page 1.

I love wagons just as much as the next person, if not more so, but if you're going to wagon, just say you're doing it to wagon, not because you hate his post #8.

and as i have detailed knowledge of why he would know that, it seems very believable.

If hes better at scum than i suspect he is, the whole begging of the day could have been planned in advance. As he could know post #8 was coming and there could be reaction that he could do that to. And that eventually i would turn up. If he knew me well enough knwoing what I would do when I saw him crashing and burning is also predictable. (or it was.) But my paranoia meter is pinging 11 to think that so nah. Frogger would have to be silly, (not what you might describe as bad, but actually silly.) to read me as town over post #8. hes seen it before.

Please show me why you think fro99er thinks this "because he saw Axle perform it a couple of times before.".

It's an inference, based on his posts.

Ahh. (you have been assuming facts not yet in evidence)
He has seen me do that when i was scum and he was town. And has looked up and read the occasions when i also did it as town.

CONCLUSION:

Slandaar is very town, and I have reversed my read on Axlegreaser; I now find him town. Spiffeh too. I'm scumreading Davsto, Flubbernugget, and tn.

I don't see why the Flubber read. I think have been swinging the other way, but i don't trust my flubber read, i expect to be inaccurate. Do you have a hint?

[AxleGreaser]

To give you an idea of why that was a problem...

Fine I post at silly times of day because i can.... stop crying in the river....
and state what times of the day your GMT day you, want to have chat....
Then you can talk to me about my scum read post about you.

You as you know your alignment can work out why i got off you and onto to IaI.

This is called playing mafia.

I am going out of my way...

sigh.

[AxleGreaser]

@Davsto you made post 669

I criticized it here 671

Here is something else i said about it.

If you ask I can go back and rip the crap out that Davesto post... but i did what felt was proportionate at the time.

Your post doesn't have to be true or accurate. Echo Echo doesn't have to be scum or scummy for the reasons you said.
All you should need is that you are town ,and that was you trying your best to figure the game out.

If for some reason that is not your best towny work.... and you have town PM, cut your losses, say so, and move on.
(move on means do something new that i can talk to you about at a time convenient to you.) (but not 17-18hrs from now)

So are we going to talk about 669 and my 671 or something else.

[AxleGreaser]

What is so hard to understand?

You caught scum in lie, went to some effort do so over an extended time frame.

This

He has at least produced some content, it is now sals turn

directly undrmines the seriousness of

PS - I think I caught spiffel in a lie, so that's where my vote is

When no, all you actually wanted was "at least produce some content" and then you would move on?

This does not sit right.

[AxleGreaser]

I moved from one scum read whose wagon stalled to another scum read.

Who you went to some effort to claim you had caught in lie.

Then accepted that there was now some content and moved on.

[AxleGreaser]

So this is in response to 932
and you are moving On?

Alright then, I'll go for someone else.

VOTE: Banana
Because that unvote was weird. Jumping off the (already falling apart) main wagon makes Spiffeh less scummy, and completely nullifies all your reads on him enough to change your vote?

Also, FoS at MarioManiac for the vote on Sala. It seems like an attempt to counterwagon but with an RVS feel so he can go "guys it was a joke".

Actually, fuckit, I think Mario is worse.
VOTE: MarioManiac

So I should discuss this post with you, or ?

[AxleGreaser]

Please wise one, tell me how I should have played it?

743 Banana got off why?
Talk to spiffeh some more. Push spiffeh about limping off the wagon.


Not go from scum you caught in lie, which get downgraded by you to now they are contributing its Ok....

PS - I think I caught spiffel in a lie, so that's where my vote is

He has at least produced some content, it is now sals turn

This shoots your own wagon in the foot.

one or both of those two statements is bullshit

[AxleGreaser]

Never.got.downgraded.but.nice.try.

I didnt say you claimed to have down graded it,
but you shot your own wagon in the foot by saying that providing content provided relief.
as if that was the problem.

When previously you had claimed he was caught in a lie.

[AxleGreaser]

The wagon was already shot.

Scum play in terms of momentum

Townies try and work out who is scum, by working out why they do things.
You shot the reasoning behind your own push.

I dont believe you ever believed the reasoning behind your own push.

[AxleGreaser]

Alright then, I'll go for someone else.

VOTE: Banana
Because that unvote was weird. Jumping off the (already falling apart) main wagon makes Spiffeh less scummy, and completely nullifies all your reads on him enough to change your vote?

Also, FoS at MarioManiac for the vote on Sala. It seems like an attempt to counterwagon but with an RVS feel so he can go "guys it was a joke".

Actually, fuckit, I think Mario is worse.
VOTE: MarioManiac

Ok I am just going to assume we are discussing this post as the other one was ahem, cough, cough. We all have bad days.
anyway.

Spoiler: lol

I have noticed the wagon i have been pushing not only stalled but apparently evaporated right in front of my face. Wat do. (I plan on having two showers as i clearly still have BO, after going to the gym yesterday.)

So while that guy is IMO still scum for all the reasons i stated.

Dave, I don't think i can sheep your Mario vote, as it feels a little funny and stale. Mario's vote on Sala 459 happened before your 669 on Echo, and it did not ping you back then.

About your observations on Banana

Alright then, I'll go for someone else.

VOTE: Banana
Because that unvote was weird. Jumping off the (already falling apart) main wagon makes Spiffeh less scummy, and completely nullifies all your reads on him enough to change your vote?

I imagine that is all kinds of a rhetorical question and implied blah blah.
Could you please explain in direct language why you were going to vote banana.

If you convince me i might start or join new wagon on him.

[AxleGreaser]

Oh.

[AxleGreaser]

Ow.

[AxleGreaser]

Is anyone else seeing this shit?

I am trying to but I keep falling on the floor.

LOL GUYS LOOK HE CAN'T ANSWER

What are ur waiting for, others to agree before u recast a vote my way? Cowardly scum move.

I thought you were the guy that when your wagon ran out of support a bit you had to move on?

Was that a cowardly scum move.

<ow.>

Damn now i am doing to myself.

---

keeping this out of the way as its fluff.

Spoiler: @shiro

Axl what do you think of my hypothesis?

Will you settle for i don't find it convincing.

I will also state I don't think it is the kind of thing you would likely claim to be true as scum than town.

It has some characteristics of things i find scum characteristically do. it is a distanced kind of mechanical scum hunting recipe thing.
You could if you want to check if it is any good, by testing how many people this game fit the description of
"I mean why vote and never push anything. It would only make sense to park your vote and assuming this for scum a partner is the best place "

Also pretty much anything scum always do, and is describable simply, such as park on partners is bad scum play.
(barring silly exception like shoot yourself at night, although I once nearly saw game that might have won by using scum KP to shot scum at night. It could have won except for the fsk up ,and that was because no one would ever have believed that they tried that. (the situation was unusual))

Vote parking by town happens. There are times i see people do stuff i call vote parking and its towny to do that at that time. Thread may need less cooks or the broth spoils.
My push on "Blaze" against reinoe in masquerade was not push I 100% actually believed (shhh)). I thought someone should.

[AxleGreaser]

Its too late in the day.

I know 2 days 11 hours is normally on this site short. In this game its half game day.
Whats late?

[AxleGreaser]

@Dave

could you please explain in different words this read.

VOTE: Banana
Because that unvote was weird. Jumping off the (already falling apart) main wagon makes Spiffeh less scummy, and completely nullifies all your reads on him enough to change your vote?

[AxleGreaser]

Thats not quite accurate. bear in mind ...
How about you just assume I think Banana is scummy...
but a reason needs to be consistent with the facts.

growing wagon.

When banana jumped ,the only two vote on your wagon were Slaandar and then me. Your wagon had been static for very long time.

[AxleGreaser]

Votes are not the whole story.

I suspect if one were to look back, more and more suspicion of Davsto was being voiced hence his viewpoint. I might check that later. (Someone else could!)

Derp me.
Sweet Yeah Sakura was raising sentiment. and I discussed it at 887 hre pst making waves about Davsto was at 728

[AxleGreaser]

Btw guys, shorter deadlines doesn't mean "let's deadline scramble every day phase"

I will be here sufficiently between now and the end of the day for this not to be problem with me. There has been a fair amount of "Oh no hes scum that one over there, rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb". I think if I recall them all the only one I actively oppose, is Shiro. Not even sure if any push (by reasoning or lack thereof) on Shiro qualifies as at all serious. Indeed the only vote I see is Ricastles. That should put you in my ball park, of who I will easily hammer.

[AxleGreaser]

Perhaps you and ricastle have questions for one another?

Although the vote on banana and ne in one post felt weird

Pretty much confirms Davsto as town. And no, it's not just because he switched his vote in the same post which he made it, although that is a major factor.

[AxleGreaser]

Of the three wagons IaI, Davsto and Mario.
My prefernce is, IaI > Davsto > Mario.
The preference is strong enough that at this time of Day, no consolidation from me.

[AxleGreaser]

echo

[AxleGreaser]

echo

echo

echo

echo

Spoiler: rulez

There are 4 echos on this page, Ok 5 including that one. The last above is on the right and may be hard to see. Sorry if that was too far mod.

@MarioManiac4

And in case MarioManiac4 doesnt get my point, I echo the request for reasons/explanations. (6 reverberations now)

I mean you know you are going to flip town(eventually), and you know that, and you'd like us to follow your reads and get those rotten scum after you die. But to do that we will need reasons, otherwise your just a dead towny, who may have been right or wrong. Your reads, even if i become certain you are town, wont mean much to me unless i know the reasons.

[AxleGreaser]

Explain all of those.

Nah

<Ow.>

Um...

Ok.

Echo. EBWOP

.

Of the three wagons IaI,

Davsto and Mario

Mario and Davsto.
My prefernce is, IaI

> Davsto > Mario

> Mario > Davsto.
The preference is strong enough that at this time of Day, no consolidation from me.

but my golly gosh it is tempting.
The concept of typing "nah vote" so very nearly had me...

[AxleGreaser]

Also for those that would like more depth to that analysis by Mario. I recommend.
Nah the video Lyrics

[AxleGreaser]

I mean you know you are going to flip town(eventually)

?

Yeah well obviously I dont, I ma talking to him as if he is town and presenting the reasons why as a towny he ought post the reasons.
If ask like that in non confrontational non accusatory way, whats the excuse for nah...
I was typing that up when he ninja me.

[AxleGreaser]

I am not young.

[AxleGreaser]

Also That VC there is room for me without reaching self hammer territory.

bugger.

Ninja'd again. Consider me L-1 in waiting.

[AxleGreaser]

Also I don't remember Mario having any issues explaining reads back in Disney which just finished, so im happier with my vote now.

I was in the process of typing a WAT post.
Then i read that game at another "level" and i see your point. phew.

@Salamence20.

I can only arson at twilight so hurry the fuck up

I am currently slowing the fuck down as i dont know what you are saying your role does.

Twilight is most games i have seen of arbitrary length. So with no more information, I would start twilight when you want it to.

I am happy to L-1 or hammer the Mario wagon.

What do you need out of twilight...
and who is going to cast the other vote. <

looks expectantly at the rabble

>

[AxleGreaser]

@Ika Hi

as of 1173 hammering Mario looks pretty likely.

I am ready to L-1 the wagon.
waiting on Sala to clarify about 1103 see 1186

and then potentially the hammer would be up for...

[AxleGreaser]

Reaction test completed!
Downloading results!

colour me not impressed.

tap tap tap.

[AxleGreaser]

AKA now you need to both explain reads and make something out of your reaction test BS.

[AxleGreaser]

yeah its duh that he does not have role that is explicitly not normal.

Roles which are explicitly Non-Normal include: Arsonist,

everyone that dies at night should flip in the same way (e.g., "died during the night" or "was found dead")

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Vigilante

The Arsonist variation is functionally similar to a Vigilante.

So just what can be squeezed into the normal role stuff via perhaps flavor IDK nor care.
(burning things in flavor might be the standard kill mode of this game then were all good with those pesky guidelines)(and hes effectively a vig)

We have enough time to see if he wants to say something.

No skin off my nose.

[AxleGreaser]

@Davsto
You are still not that far from being lynched today or tomorrow. Concentrating on finding scum, and actively looking like you are doing so, rather than informing about your thoughts on the setup would be best.

[AxleGreaser]

Meh, I'm pretty damn sure MarioManiac is scum, and frankly a lot of my tells will be changed by Mario's flip, whatever it is. I'd rather not get ahead of myself by going "I think X is scum" and then Mario flips something which makes me change that opinion, because it'd be a waste of time.

Also, getting tells this early for players in future days is likely to fall prey to conf/bias, which can screw me over.

No
even if what you think changes.
Laying down in the thread what you think right now.
Then explaining what and how that evolves tomorrow, will make you look townier than if you dont.

of course if you are scum that is harder to do and get away with... which is why it would be how to look actually townier, if you are...

[AxleGreaser]

@IKA

There is no THE CASE on Mario.
I suspect most people are at POE from their town reads, and lynching into whats left. Various panics such as when i got off Davsto to vote IaI and everyone was Oh what a surprise. When if you go back and look you will see I had been digging and working towards, that post for quite some time. Then theres the stuff you wont see that i did. I talked to Shiro to strengthen my read on IaI!!!, by making sure Shiro was in thew thread if IaI really wanted to find out if that Shiro vote was scummy......

TBMK: People went all funny after that and wagon hopping became a fad.

Anyway this may or may not be quick find index to what was the basis of votes on Mario. In some bizzare way the wagon started off Davsto 936. yeah. actually.

so whats the case on mario right now?

Vote: Mario

Half sheeping Slandaar, Half because i didnt like that thing about "PoEing Slandaar's buddies" like where the heck did that even come from.
I would also be okay with an IaI lynch again.

refers to 1017 marios POE post.

Davsto post about Mario 936
(be careful making read on davsto, see the context of 932 928 671 692 Davstos 669 It took lot of encouraging to get more stuff out of Davsto. )

Slaandar. Working thatout and why the vote may be tricky. See 914 925(then work out why he said that) and 992

Shiro 1024

Banana 1044 naked?

Shazzam 1084 worth a read. Summarizes all 3 wagons from his point of view.

Sal 1097 naked.

Ricastle 1083 I think referring to Marios 1173. (so called reaction test.)

That 1173 also crossed my cant suffer this to live line.
well that and suspicion I cant get my IaI lynch up.

[AxleGreaser]

yeah its duh that he does not have role that is explicitly not normal.

Roles which are explicitly Non-Normal include: Arsonist,

everyone that dies at night should flip in the same way (e.g., "died during the night" or "was found dead")

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Vigilante

The Arsonist variation is functionally similar to a Vigilante.

So just what can be squeezed into the normal role stuff via perhaps flavor IDK nor care.
(burning things in flavor might be the standard kill mode of this game then were all good with those pesky guidelines)(and hes effectively a vig)

We have enough time to see if he wants to say something.

No skin off my nose.

Axl why do you want to find out about sale's role? It sounds awfully lot like role fishing by pressuring the issue of his fakeclaim

No I want to know if he needs ANy thign specific to happen right now. he has stated in the thread that is has something to do with twilight.
Does he need the the lynch to be timed to go down so he can act in twilight... YES NO

I then move on.

That about as non role fishy as it can get considering all the other loose lips chatter there has been.

[AxleGreaser]

Right, I'll list all the players and a basic summary of my reads on them..

... in a couple of hours. IRL things yay, don't have enough time to start on a post like that.

You do what you get done instead of excuses. End of day can wait for quite some time if you say hey guys gimme some time....
I am currently waiting on the off chance Sal needs time.

[AxleGreaser]

Right, I'll list all the players and a basic summary of my reads on them..

... in a couple of hours. IRL things yay, don't have enough time to start on a post like that.

You do what you get done instead of excuses. End of day can wait for quite some time if you say hey guys gimme some time....
I am currently waiting on the off chance Sal needs time.

You appear to still be long on the excuses,
short on the towny things done in the thread.

[AxleGreaser]

by pressuring the issue of his fakeclaim

I explictly didnt

So just what can be squeezed into the normal role stuff via perhaps flavor IDK nor care.

go back and read 1186 for what i actually asked Sal.

Is it Ok to drive this lynch home now? Y/N is what i expect.

[AxleGreaser]

Fair enough, my bad then. I misinterpreted it

Thats, Ok you probably just saved me from being misinterpreted by someone with a square head.

[AxleGreaser]

based than evidence based.

ta.

Finding the ones that are evidence based, and describing your evidence would be the next most useful thing I would get from you.
That can be done at the time of day you have time and posted then.

TAI.

[AxleGreaser]

This is some next level flailing.

I dont disagree.

Davsto has this problem with time. If we have some we could let him have time so he can post his reads and analysis with reasoning connected to evidence.


If Sal turns up and oks things and people really want to, I am also happy to end the day.
I am feeling pretty damn mellow, and i am not even drunk.

[AxleGreaser]

Most of them I could probably find posts to support my reads on them if anyone asked,

Well this was me asking

A few of these are more gut-based than evidence based.

Finding the ones that are evidence based, and describing your evidence would be the next most useful thing I would get from you.
That can be done at the time of day you have time and posted then.

TIA.

(but I messed up the TIA)(thank you in advance)

I will be blunter.

please provide evidence for the reads that have evidence.

That might be big task, so break it up into bits choose individual read sand find the evidence then do another one.
starting as soon as practicable. please.

[AxleGreaser]

Davsto has this problem with time. If we have some we could let him have time so he can post his reads and analysis with reasoning connected to evidence.

I get your point, but I'm waiting until tomorrow. I'm solid on my scumread with Mario.
All providing reasoning for my scumreads will do is tell the people I scumread how to act to make me less suspicious of them in future. I see no reason to expand until tomorrow, when I'm gonna go after the next scum.

My lynch order is open for debate again.

[AxleGreaser]

Explain to me why giving a reads list today when I already think I'm voting and am going to lynch scum is more beneficial for town than just lynching who I think is scum and providing the reads tomorrow.

I did (1223, especially 1216) we need you to provide reasoning in the thread to support the reads list you already gave.
Reads list are easier to fake than that reads supported by reasoning.

Reads list supported by reasoning are harder for you if you are scum to back flip on if the need arises tomorrow.
As town you explain why your view changed and move on.

Thus you doing the things that are harder and riskier for scum to do make you look townier.

[AxleGreaser]

but it'll give scum info on how to act to be less suspicious in my eyes.

As town, given the wagons that have run today,
How for you to be less suspicious in other peoples eyes is I think a higher priority for you.

There are lots of people hunting scum, you being seen to be hunting scum would be nice.

[AxleGreaser]

Okay, which people would you like me to do? Because fuck off am I doing an ISO on all 18 players, each of which have an average of about 60 posts each, just to prove my towniness to you in a way that, imo, helps scum more than town.

That might be big task, so break it up into bits choose individual reads and find the evidence then do another one.
starting as soon as practicable. please.

You get to choose which order is most important too.

At some time you might die and us knowing why you thought it is important if you are town.

[AxleGreaser]

Dammit, I was distracted, there was a hammer.

@Axle

- I'll start writing down as many people as I can during the night so I can post it ASAP tomorrow.

Dave I have been reading your other games.

You not knowing the value of putting reads in the threads seems incongruous with what i read.
You only have one finished game, so that makes me giving example references hard.

The comparison of your play here and elsewhere looks bad to me.

I tired to wait, on saying this but you let the clock run down.

[AxleGreaser]

inb4 Sala said he was an arson just so the day could end ASAP

The day was going to end soonish regardless so i don't see your point here.

The day was becoming problem, and while I was milking it

The cost in terms of these aspects

This game is going to hit a 50 Page Day 1.

Just shut up and let other players get a chance to post, otherwise there are going to be replacements. Seriously.

was a concern.
For a 5 day D1 that was pretty good one, unless people have exhausted by it.

[AxleGreaser]

You. Are. Reaching.

Thats NOT my case at all. Indeed my case is NOT about you or Echo Echo. So why you mention the timing of those votes is ?

My case is about the reasoning and the lack of consistency behind IaI's push on Spiffeh.

My problem is outlined in 747
added to in 827
and most recently where I explain how IaI getting off spiffeh to go look under some other Sal rock 785
claiming that "some content" satisfied, what previously was described catching scum in lie. 619

It reads to me like a made up pile of rubbish.

The feel of IaI, read the thread From post 955 through to 970 Also see. Spiffehs 933
IaI is not town.

VOTE: I am Innocent

pedit: Damn these ninja's

[AxleGreaser]

Oh, yeah, Baymax & Piss are town ftr.

quickie Who is BayMax?

Well, that's interesting.

VOTE: Shiro

What is the reasoning for this.

[AxleGreaser]

EBWOP

The feel of IaI, read the thread From post 955 through to 970 Also see. Spiffehs

933

(

oops that the wrong post 993

)

[AxleGreaser]

I think Slandaar might have been a fear kill tbh I heard he is really good town

Banana makes no sense as to why though or who. maybe a random sk or vig mistake? Neither is impossible so eh

Rica <3 too

Spoiler: later not today

If later on the game you work out it is an SK shot. It looks like an SK shot that was made by a skilled player.

[AxleGreaser]

Anybody notice anything similar about these...perhaps 7 names at least? Yeah same people responsible for killing Mario tried to kill me too in other words.

I am town. I am not on your list voting Mario. Please at last in spirit Add me to the list, I was perfectly willing to vote him.

I am voting you.

I see no contradiction in some people legitimately thinking mario was scum.

If you wish to analyse why people voted him, and point out which specific ones were scummy and why, Id be interested.

Let's also check in with what the dead think. For scum IAI, this would be an odd choice to kill.

It makes them easy to quote without fear of contradiction.

[AxleGreaser]

Since Shiro's only non-RVS votes were on me and Mario, she is the first person I wanted to look into, and unfortunately the only person I had time to look into further during N1. After rereading her, I no longer think she is likely scum.

As you have already done the work.


and you read Shiro as scum yesterday and never said why.
and now today shes back to town
Please explain. BOTH your original read and the current one. img (local humor?)

[AxleGreaser]

Axle, please provide other reads than just me.

TIA

I have a truck load of content and reasoning in the thread. or
You could try reading 1175 and 1238 for some CliffsNotes
but that will detail and nuance.

[AxleGreaser]

Reads please.

As I just asked you to read the post where I made them.... I assume that a silly pun?

As you voted someone yesterday because you scum read someone else... for reasons you never stated....

PKB

[AxleGreaser]

Spoiler: EBWOP added missing word

Axle, please provide other reads than just me.

TIA

I have a truck load of content and reasoning in the thread. or
You could try reading 1175 and 1238 for some CliffsNotes
but that will

miss

detail and nuance.

[AxleGreaser]

I stated them, multiple times I believe.

Your read on Shiro changed from so scummy you voted Davsto over a preflip association. 945

To town today and there is ZERO reasons for that.

[AxleGreaser]

1330 explains (to the degree that it does) you going from an existing Shiro scum read to a Davsto read.
By doing bad preflip associations, from your scum read.
and going "Well they're a wagon so thats good enough for me(IaI)".

It does not explain why today you now town read Shiro and what happened to yesterdays strong scum read.

[AxleGreaser]

Axle, how many scum on Mario's wagon uthinks?

Less than average. It looks like the kind of town wagon scum stay off.

[AxleGreaser]

It does not explain why today you now town read Shiro and what happened to yesterdays strong scum read.

and EVEN though you calim you did this last night you still have not provided it

WHY

?

[AxleGreaser]

Tick tick... You did this last night (last 24 hrs) remember?

[AxleGreaser]

But yes, I reread her, and found a pattern of one town tell that I can't believe I missed earlier.

and you still didnt say what that was

[AxleGreaser]

Ah I see 538 now

[AxleGreaser]

Ah I see 538 now

Sorry no I dotn that not 538 of this game, that 538 of another game.

You still have no explained why you town read shiro on your rererad

[AxleGreaser]

It does not explain why today you now town read Shiro and what happened to yesterdays strong scum read.

and EVEN though you calim you did this last night you still have not provided it

WHY

?

You have NOT answered this question.

You have linked indirectly to post where you have SCUM tells you , but you have linked to nothing in this game that is the basis of your town read on Shiro.

[AxleGreaser]

Also note it is now the best part of two hours since I asked this question

Since Shiro's only non-RVS votes were on me and Mario, she is the first person I wanted to look into, and unfortunately the only person I had time to look into further during N1. After rereading her, I no longer think she is likely scum.

As you have already done the work.


and you read Shiro as scum yesterday and never said why.
and now today shes back to town

Please explain. BOTH your original read and the current one.

img (local humor?)

The intent of the request is perfectly clear, and all i have had is evasion on explaining what was found during this supposed reread.

[AxleGreaser]

I have answered all ur questions actually.

Where are u reads?
Where are the answers to my other questions?

Thanks shiro for answering my question.

NO you have effectively claimed by referencing this post http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p6716641
that you have NO intention of stating why you changed your read to town overnight.

That is explictly NOT answering my question.

[AxleGreaser]

I have answered all ur questions actually.

Nope you didnt

I have answered all ur questions actually.

Where are u reads?
Where are the answers to my other questions?

Thanks shiro for answering my question.

NO you have effectively claimed

in 1341

by referencing this post http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p6716641
that you have NO intention of stating why you changed your (

previous strong scum read on SHiro

) read to town overnight.

That is explictly NOT answering my question.

[AxleGreaser]

So you want the town tells??? Sorry not going to happen bud.

so this was explicitly a lie then

I have answered all ur questions actually.

[AxleGreaser]

Town Reads are Banana, Aeronaut, Shazam, Sakura, Flubber
Slight Town Reads for Slandar, MarioManiac
Those who have done townie things which I can't still pull the trigger on to call townie are pisskop, frogger, echo echo
Null ricastle, davsto, veegee, TN5420, AxleGreaser
Scummy - Salamence, Shiro, Spiefel

And based on the flips so far, I'd say my town tells are fairly accurate huh?

There are two theories for how that can happen huh?

[AxleGreaser]

Axle vs IaI is most likely a mono-faction argument, leaning tvt. Neither one is answering the other's questions, so nobody's particularly in the right here.

I have not answered the distraction questions that have been dragged back and forth across the thread.

In this post 1322 I asked question.

There has indeed been shit storm of evasion since then.
His final position is that, NOPE he wont explain his read on Shiro at all period.

he claims it was strong scum read yesterday and changed to a town read today based on some secret sauce town tell that he wont reveal.

[AxleGreaser]

Yes as scum I like to put all the town players in my town reads so I can box myself in with limiting choices of who to vote for...

You are by your own just stated policy never boxed into anything.

All you have to do is pull out another "Oh I re-read the thread and found a different secret (scum/town) tell and changed my mind."

So back at you.

[AxleGreaser]

Spoiler: Answers to various bullshit questions Pt 1

Note first: I didnt just claim to have already done this analysis so the timeliness of my answers is

not

problem.
Well actually this only answers 1.

Why less cum than average.

I had not thought much about how many scum would be on marios wagon before IaI asked. As it is an especially unreliable guess to make.
It becomes even more unreliable in fast paced game where as has been claimed by IaI himself he (and so presumably anyones who scum) is not online 24x7.
So if wagon changes quickly it is entirely plausible significant numbers of scum are not online, and its not always plausible for any scum to jump on any wagon.
So there is very large anount of noise in any estimate of how many scum are on wagon.

Thus I state i believe less than Average is as many significant digit as are in fact justified by the following reasoning.

The wagon on Mario was especially to begin with built on flimsy evidence. IaI has IIRC claimed town reads now on
Slandaar, Shiro, Sakura Hana
Which are 3 of the early adopters of the wagon. It makes no sense to claim that is scum counter wagon when it got created by people you have town reads on.
The case or what there is of it I outlined in 1219 Lots of people voting with very little reasoning. I think scum will find that a harder than average wagon to vote.

However my reads of who would be scum on the wagon is far more controlled by their posting content than by their position on the wagon.

I really wont be surprised if there is only one scum on the wagon. Second most likely number is 2, then zero.

[AxleGreaser]

Axle you know why your scum hunting skills suck, and we can discuss this more post game if you want so you can see there is no hidden agenda as I am town, but it is because you don't look for motive.

Bullshit

Instead of saying that my

reasons are crap

for moving shiro from a scum read to probable town read, ask yourself why? Why would scum IAI do that? Why would scum IAI have listed those 3 players who have flipped town among his most 7 towniest D1? Why were the Mario and IAI wagons so similar?

If ur honestly town and start thinking like that, ull play much better. If I'm wrong about u and ur scum, then well played.

I didnt suggest they

are crap

. I suggested they didn't exist because you are scum

To suggest they a

re crap

you would first have to say what they are.
Even then if

they were crap

Id have to decide if you

were just bad

... or if you were

scum

,
and they were bad because you had had to make them up.

I did think about motive.

You when cornered with question that you lied when you had claimed to answer it. (1322 1364 1366(explicit lie))

Dragged up a shit storm of distraction questions for me, and that might just have made sense if you were scum reading me.. .BUT

This states you dont and didn't for quite some time.

If I didn't agree with this id park my vote on u and suggest 1vs1.

So your motive was not to probe my alignment, but to distract from the fact that you could not answer my question.

[AxleGreaser]

I have answered all ur questions actually.

Nope you didnt

I have answered all ur questions actually.

Where are u reads?
Where are the answers to my other questions?

Thanks shiro for answering my question.

NO you have effectively claimed

in 1341

by referencing this post http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p6716641
that you have NO intention of stating why you changed your (

previous strong scum read on SHiro

) read to town overnight.

That is explictly NOT answering my question.

I'll make a deal with u, if I

move

players the other direction, aka, loosen the box, I will give explicit reasons

But for me to do that I want answers to my 3 questions

There are no players to be

moved

the question i about one player you claim to have read on that changed.

You claim to town read me, why do you need those questions answered.
BTW You got he how many on the wagon and why answered. I have lots and lots of content in the thread.

and yeah, my best read is guessing how many scum on the wagon is such bad tell its basically all noise.

[AxleGreaser]

Yes as scum I like to put all the town players in my town reads so I can box myself in with limiting choices of who to vote for...

You are by your own just stated policy never boxed into anything.

All you have to do is pull out another "Oh I re-read the thread and found a different secret (scum/town) tell and changed my mind."

So back at you.

Except this change in read would box me in further no?

Think next time before u type

I did you don't need an infinite number of read flips. You give out some reads. Find you need to change some of them. If you get called out on it and somenone like me hounds you for four freaking pages while you throw distractions at them. Then you roll out your Oh its my secret tell. That is more than enough freedom to not be boxed in at all. Scum players even without that, canned universal excuse, give town reads all the time. Sometimes for good measure they change their minds, the good ones can even tell you why they did. There is no boxing in.

The odds on me not thinking before I type are about the same as me being dead and still typing.

[AxleGreaser]

If you said 2-3 scum on the wagon, I'd have pushed you for which ones "must be bussing me then".

Under the preflip hypothesis that

IaI flips scum

.
As my most likely estimate is one on the MarioWagon.
Wagon analysis alone might well suggest Ricastle was on you as an RVS vote then got stuck there.

My low estimate of the number of scum on Mario is because the wagon just looked soooo bad. 994 was a post that looked like legitimate estimation.

[AxleGreaser]

OMG I AM AN IDIOT

I will bite. Why?

[AxleGreaser]

Stop trying to minimize my vote on davsto. There is what, probably 4 or 5 bad guys this game? D1 I have no problem voting any scum read (I had 3 after my catch up post) or null reads (5 at the same time).

D1 is about pressuring people, seeing how they react, gaining reads. Yes

that

preflip association

made me

feel better

about it, but as the lack of interest on my 3 scum wagons continued, I was pretty ready to move to my null reads next anyway.

Die in a fire, preferably with Salamence20.

VOTE: I Am Innocent

If that preflip association is something you feel so strongly about, why didn't it effect you yesterday.
Slaandar pointed it out here.

Why is scum shiro coming up with such bad logic unless she's trying to protect someone?

unvote salamance
Vote davsto

Why is IAI voting someone because he thinks someone else is scum?
(Shiro isn't scum)

[AxleGreaser]

Also, interested in why we arent voting Aero

I have no idea why you are not voting aero.

I am voting the guy I have the biggest scum read on. For reasons i have stated in the thread.

Feel free to start counter wagon. I like them.especially if the come with reasons.

ninja'd by a wall,

Oh look someone actually did their homework.

[AxleGreaser]

People that suddenly townread me with little to no reason are 100% scum.

Fun fact you softed vig like trojan. Buys you day.

[AxleGreaser]

Yes im the werewolf faction

The be the solo entire (hence nongroup) werewolf faction as you claim you would need to be really powered up.
Unless you also claim all your powers I am unlikely to believe you.

[AxleGreaser]

hm so whats the case on IaI?

My votes based on 1304
At this time I dont like the stuff mentioned in 1383

IIRC when his wagon ran up yesterday it was pretty short on reasons to begin with.
(IaI 540 is his 5th post and he had 7 votes at the time 525.)

and when i gave it some at about 747 was about when everyone else said nah...

and ran up other people.
Davsto then Mario.

[AxleGreaser]

Shoot Davesto.

are you sure?

Shoot Davesto.

but are you really sure?

Shoot Davesto.

pinky swear you mean it sure?

Shoot Davesto.

Ok

Dammit, I was distracted, there was a hammer.

@Axle

- I'll start writing down as many people as I can during the night so I can post it ASAP tomorrow.

Hey, I think I agree.

Yo Sala, Davsto didn't do his homework like he promised.

[AxleGreaser]

oh, and axle, u never did produce those reads. Can't wait to see where u go next. <popcorn>

Well that would be obvious?
I read up to about here and unvote.

UNVOTE: I am Innocent

I could just vote Davsto right now, but first I need to check some stuff.

[AxleGreaser]

Well that sucks Ricastle was in the pool of also rands reads for me.

[AxleGreaser]

oh, and axle, u never did produce those reads. Can't wait to see where u go next. <popcorn>

As you have noticed me taking an interest in you is thing. I try not to spook, people I am still sorting.

I had mild wondering scum leans on Banana and Ricastle D1. (and shiro thinks hes having bad day) The banana one in particular I thought had high margin of error. So yeah i want ed more interactions without/before spooking them. The banana stuff is also tied to interactions, so not good until flips. Oh well.

Remaining Scum reads Davsto.

Remaining Scum leans, tn, Aero,

There are people I dont read well, as i dont know them, but people that seemingly do, say town.

[AxleGreaser]

VOTE: Davsto

Where is that reading you were going to do last night?

[AxleGreaser]

pisskip, spiffeh, and ricastle. At least 1 (33% chance) or 2 (67% chance) has to be scum, as uncoincidentally, these 7 players also ended up on Mario's wagon.

The two that did not end up on Dav's wagon....spiffeh and ricastle.

You love this preflip stuff.

So if they are scum because they are on one wagon and not the other....
then the dave wagon is where your vote belongs?

[AxleGreaser]

and frankly very few other players have dome a it list.

Weve already had this discussion and the end of you said:

Dammit, I was distracted, there was a hammer.

@Axle

- I'll start writing down as many people as I can during the night so I can post it ASAP tomorrow.

I did not demand a whole list from you

I will be blunter.

please provide evidence for the reads that have evidence.

That might be big task, so break it up into bits choose individual read sand find the evidence then do another one.
starting as soon as practicable. please.

you stated

Most of them I could probably find posts to support my reads on them if anyone asked,

I asked
you stalled.

[AxleGreaser]

you ain't done yet.

I have provided extensive detailed comment on my scum reads.

Your turn.

[AxleGreaser]

That good?

Incongruously.

[AxleGreaser]

Can we wagon flubber to make him talk?

Yes you can do things.

[AxleGreaser]

It should not take too much if hes town.

[AxleGreaser]

I might be wrong about Davesto, given his long post explaining his tn scumread. A+ for effort.

my read on Davesto,

I am going to have sleep on, deciding what I conclude from that Davsto post. and see if it sits right or itches.

[AxleGreaser]

Is this really a thing that we're talking about rn lol

That would be the non bastard implication of "Role distribution is guaranteed to be random, determined with the aid of random.org"
so I am going with yes

[AxleGreaser]

I missed the reasoning behind a mafia doc being worth discussing

It added color and scope and detail to the gunsmith claim IIRC.

[AxleGreaser]

I am going to have sleep on, deciding what I conclude from that Davsto post. and see if it sits right or itches.

Davsto, recent long post does get A+ for effort. It and associated kind explicitly indicates that it was not read from hunting for scum earlier, but was made at the time requested. If you get a town PM you get it for the whole game and you play for the whole game, not just when some other townie hounds you into the ground.

So yeah, it can be a townies effort, or reluctant scum, not sure I see signs where i think no a scum couldn't find that just by looking for stuff.

[AxleGreaser]

Well perhaps little earlier than I asked.

[AxleGreaser]

Normally I would also say that hammer vote is unlikely scum but sine it is Ika, can't rule him out yet.
I would like to know why 3 players were not voting at all.

The slot was dead in the water. Anyone could have hammered. Alignment indicative, may be, was it good time to end the day.

If you want alignment off TN I suggest read post to him or about him.

[AxleGreaser]

Well you should have flubbers attention by now.

[AxleGreaser]

Axel: Interactions with TN lean scum

So I was right D1? Oh boy!

nope