Large Normal 199: L'Hôtel Pleuvoir (Fin)
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Pine In Your Head
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Pine In Your Head
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Pine In Your Head
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...In post 14, Cabd wrote:Before this goes any farther... Pine please read my claim and read the player list. Thanks.
...
Shut up
My vote stays."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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That's essentially what I'm doing. Trying to keep up but fuck this.In post 673, mozamis wrote:ah jeez, guys...
you're all so bloody ENGAGED in the game. Can't everyone just lurk the shit of it for a while lol"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Interesting. I wasn't expecting a straight answer to this. I think we can use this for some very effective PoE. Need to go through Cloudkicker's ISO.
I think a lot of nonsense is being made out of Sonia's clearly sarcastic comments.
This game moves too quickly to be fun. I swear to God, six pages (probably seven by the time I post this) in a few hours is insane. There are a lot of people in this thread who are doing a lot of talking and fuck all listening.Thank you. I absolutely despise playing catch-up, and it's absolutely the fault of people who post WAY too much. You genuinely do not need to comment on everyone's each and every thought.
"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Nah, I'm not reading all of that. I skimmed most of it, but I'm operating on my replacement MO now. Reading absolutely everything is likely to just get me to fall in line with one of the prevailing schools of thought already present; I'd rather start mostly fresh, without preconceptions. I've had a good deal of success with that as a replacement. Worry not, I'll go back and read anything that's important, like the vig claims and significant interactions, but I'd rather not be complacent. The top five posters in this thread account for 53% of its content, and the top ten account for more than 80%. There's a lot of room for scum to hide in obscurity, and I'd rather read the minority than the majority."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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My run through of Cloudkicker's ISO suggests that he was attacking Gamma, Alisea, Nero and I pretty consistently. There were others, and a few he went back and forth on, but they seemed more a feature of his spazzy nature than serious attacks.In post 2283, mozamis wrote:
ok, caught up and have calmed slightly.In post 2281, Cabd wrote:Literally impossible unless those three plus me are scum
I'll rescind my rage vote for now. His reason for voting Lapsa sounds OK. Plus, I really want him to be town. He has to be null I guess for a while. But seems more profitabke to concentrate on cloud kikers stuff.
UNVOTE
More important is how hard he defended Tywin. That's where my vote is going.
VOTE: Tywin"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Entirely inconclusive. CK was pretty neutral on them, but seemed to be buddying up in some posts. The buddying could be construed as trying to foster a Town ally, or it could be supporting a scum comrade, or any number of other things. So like I said, inconclusive.In post 2290, Alisae wrote:Pine do you think Cloud incriminated Kyouko?
Is there something in particular you'd like to point to that you think indicates otherwise? (genuine curiosity)
PEdit: I just went through Cloudkicker's ISO looking for references to Sonia, and concluded that she's not scum with CK. CK started out aggressive and attacking with her, then ended up giving her a blanket TR and supporting her in a couple of places. That reads to me like someone who is looking to push an attack, seeing it not working, then shifting gears to turn them into an ally. Given that Cloudkicker knew scums' identities, it rules her out too.
Personally, this gives me solid TRs on Gamma, Alisae (with the caveat that she is either Vig or SK), Nero, and Sonia, in addition to TRs on Titus and Cabd.
Primary scumread is Tywin, based mostly off of Cloudkicker's ISO, need to drill down on some more. Honestly, though, with so many quality Townreads, it makes PoE a lot easier."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Any of a dozen or so where he's hard defending Tywin. If he's not CK's teammate, I could see him putting up a token defense for the "I was right" Towncred, but not going to the effort of actually derailing the wagon on him. Cloudkicker went to the mat for Tywin.In post 2302, Titus wrote:Interesting. Why isn't that post flagging down SSM?
Which post in Cloudkicker'S ISO have you scumreading Tywin?
Ehhh, not really. That's a general crumb to anyone's listening, SSBM just happened to be the one he was engaging at the time. In context of a larger conversation about Traitors which he (if memory serves) did not initiate, it's entirely NAI.In post 2303, Alisae wrote:@PineIn post 1872, CloudKicker wrote:Kyouko youre really underestimating what a traitor would to to indicates hes the traitor to their scumteam"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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This.In post 2335, Titus wrote:
Stop using this as an excuse. You are not in the newbie queue. It garners no sympathy and lets scum discredit you. Seasoned players can tell newbtown from newb scum a good percentage of the time. Sometimes they cannot. Learn from where you went wrong. Adapt.In post 2333, Alisae wrote:I know right, it's almost like I'm bad at this game.
If I see this, "I suck", "I am new", one more time, I will Gibbs smack you.
Pick a read. Disagree with me on it. Go ahead."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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This is not "little to no reaction," Sonia. He's contesting the validity of the inno.In post 2371, Nero Cain wrote:If you didn't I'm not sure why you'd CC. Like I know that you are arguing that there could be two vigs (I don't even think Sry claim was legit anyways) but if that's what you believed at the time then why CC? And if thats not what you believed at the time why wouldn't you think she is scum?"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Okay, ordinarily I just plain wouldn't comment on supposed Towntells regarding me, but I'm on an "educate new players" kick, and everything about this is terrible.In post 2475, mozamis wrote:Bollocks, forgot the "Pine didnt know Cabd was joking about Masons thing", which seemed a pretty good town tell.
Pine back to town then I guess. Still, be good to get more from him.
1) Mistaking the player list is NAI. It happens to be correct here, which is why I let it go, but if you'd said that about someone else I'd fight you on it. It is arguably evidence towards a read, but it's pretty weak sauce.
2) If someone Towntells on D1, they've Towntold. It doesn't get stale. It doesn't go away. If you make the decision that scum wouldn't do that, scum wouldn't do it. Period. That is, definitionally, the difference between a "tell" and a "read". A tell is a solid, reliable indicator. A read is a general feeling, which may change. All of this applies to scumtells, too. If someone slips and says something D1 that is irredeemably scummy, like not knowing that VTs are called "Adventurers" in this theme game, that doesn't get stale either. It doesn't matter that they acted Townish later.
End lesson. Continue to read me Town, as it is correct this game, just sharpen your game."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Never heard of you.
And I AM giving more. It isn't my fault that it's hard as balls to keep up with 84 pages of mostly drivel over four or five days. I'm current and providing input now. Also, bullshit that I'm not providing analysis, I've given solid reads on at least 1/3 of the player list just in the last 24 hours."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Okay, the quick version of recent posts. I have to finish making this pie, wrap some final gifts, drive to my parents' house, then get some shuteye.
Large posts from/regarding Tywin- Tywin appears to be caught scum flailing here. The connections between him and Cloudkicker are just too much to ignore. Yes, I know, some of you are suggesting CK was trying to earn Towncred from a Tywin!Town flip, but I don't think so. CK went to the mat for Tywin. Solid scum strategy is to make a futile effort to save Town. Key word beingfutile. You protest, and make a Towncase, and offer an alternate wagon that isn't going to fly. CK was trying way too hard for real. He didn't argue against it, he fucking derailed the Tywin wagon. That screams traitor trying to protect partner. Obviously, they didn't get the message. In light of this, everything else Tywin said is bunk, and isn't worth the digital paper it's written on.
This post, directed at me, is a perfect example. He's throwing an absolutely trash case at me. On the Lapsa lynch? I was the first vote, jackass. You can't be opportunistic!scum if there was no wagon to jump on. Pushing you without reason? I've given my reasons thoroughly. You have to flip Town first in order to bother with implications of a Townflip. Discussing them prior to flip is pure WIFOM. Perhaps I didn't keep up with D1, but I'm here now, and adding plenty. Derailing the Kyouku wagon? What Kyouku wagon? I've asked for cases on them anyway, there's no deflection here but Tywin's. Why not question CCs? There aren't any. Syryana never hardclaimed. With Alisae's hardclaim, his talk of vigging is regarded as a jest unless he makes an actual counter. I thinkIn post 2433, Tywin Lannister wrote:
I honestly believe you're scum. You've added nothing to the game, was on the Lapsa lynch, push for my lynch (I know I'm town) without reason, doesn't think things through about what info my flip will give if it flips town (and it will), doesn't look at Syryana or Alisae both claiming vigi, and has tried to derail the Kyouko wagon by going back to the easy mislynch (me).In post 2431, Pine wrote:It sounds like she's pushing a scumread. How strange.
What have you done this game that is pro-town Pine? Also, why not question the counter claims at all? What case do you have on me as scum, and if I flip town, what info do you gain from it? Do you not think anything through as a general rule?everythingthrough, I just refuse to engage in WIFOM.
This is the kind of nonsense that makes me super hard for scum!Tywin's lynch.
Mozamis- Our disagreement seems mostly resolved, but I'm a bit suspicious of him. In particular, the "I have Cabd as Town but not Titus" is suspicious as fuck, because that doesn't compute. It shows a serious lack of critical thinking, and suggests someone who's just making things up as they go. Don't get me wrong, I've made boneheaded errors like that as Town too, but it's cause for concern and further evaluation. Reasons for putting SSMB Kyouku in Townpile are super weak too. I don't see real!Town giving someone a pass that easy. Kneejerk desire to immediately lynch Vig/SK is also indicative of someone who fears an uncontrolled NK.
Regarding Vig/SK leashing- Unless there is evidence to suggest otherwise, Alisae is either SK or Vig. IMO, neither leashing nor killing the SK/Vig out of hand is pro-Town. SK/Vig is arguably the biggest threat to the scumteam, until late game. She shouldn't make it to endgame, but neither do we end her shots. That said, leashing SK/Vig does not work in my experience. Yes, it essentially gives us two lynches, but it also allows scum to influence a second NK. Vig/SK, regardless of their own alignment, is anti-scum, and will shoot for their scum suspects. In short, fire away, Alisae. Know that your choices will be judged, and if you start shooting obvTown, you'll get lynched right away.
Disagree, friend Titus. Also, in this context, it's spelled 'bloc'. Got that case on SSBM_Kyouku?In post 2477, Titus wrote:
Leash or lynch almost always gives flashbacks. Given the strongblock we appear to have, mandating the vig shoot a particular slot and lynching any deviation that doesn't hit scum. No excuses. Whatever we decide, we stick with.In post 2474, Cabd wrote:You draw parallel between piegirl and alisae?"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Yes, that is the short version. I have at various times had a reputation as a wallposter. I started a truly epic catchup wall around page 50, but by the time I got to 20, you guys were at page 70 or something. You were going faster than I could catch up."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Keep them to yourself. If scum have a roleblocker, they'll let you shoot if you're aiming for Town until you're aiming for scum, then roleblock you.In post 2490, Alisae wrote:I won't do anything stupid Pine.
Tho should I keep my potential targets to myself or share them?"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Bad friend. No slice of homemade apple pie.In post 2492, Titus wrote:
Share imo.In post 2490, Alisae wrote:I won't do anything stupid Pine.
Tho should I keep my potential targets to myself or share them?
FROM SCRATCH.
"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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This is a much better idea than either of the other options. I approve. Alisae, do this please.In post 2496, Titus wrote:I still think sharing is a good idea but always include multiple names, including viable players you may not shoot. It will get reactions we can use. Even if scum block you, that too is a reaction."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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With a list that long, we can't reasonably get real reactions. Three names would probably be most efficient. If scum appear on a short list, they'll be nervous. On a list that long, they won't be as worried.In post 2507, Alisae wrote:So like this right?
Dear Santa. I want to vig the following people:
Kyouko
Tywin
Syr
Sonia
Nos
Nero
The Mod
Santa
PEdit: Maybe, Titus, but directing the Vig is a special thing. Suggesting Doc protect ObvTown Bob or whatever is one thing, controlling Vig is another."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Show your work, please?In post 2518, Aj The Epic wrote:I've had Kyouko pinned as scum since yesterday. I don't see this town motivation everyone else is talking about from that slot, it all looks calculated at best."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Never mind. I took some of my own advice (from elsewhere) and CTRL+F'd your ISO. The later part of your case on Kyouko has some laudable consistency to it, but your initial scumread on him comes out of nowhere, and then sticks around until it finds a reason.In post 2519, Pine wrote:
Show your work, please?In post 2518, Aj The Epic wrote:I've had Kyouko pinned as scum since yesterday. I don't see this town motivation everyone else is talking about from that slot, it all looks calculated at best.
Better question: Convince me that this isn't just confbias."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Let's be clear, guy, I am not defending you. I don't have a Townread on you. I just don't have a scumread on you, and don't grok the cases of the people voting you. There's a world of difference between them.
If a good case appears, I'm entirely fine adding you to the scumpile. It's super easy in a game where this many Townreads, as the ratio of scum to Town in my nullpile is a lot higher than normal. The simple fact that a lot of people are SRing you, even if they don't really know why, isn't sunshine and daisies for you. Persons are smart, people as a whole are stupid, but small groups can sometimes have good instincts.
Essentially the same speech could be given for Nosferatu. Can someone give me a case on him that doesn't use the word "lurk" or any conjugation thereof?"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Any answer would be a WIFOM situation. Is she saying 3-shot because she's a 3-shot Vig, or because she's an SK who will elect to stop shooting after that many nights for Towncred?
Answer anyway, Alisae, I'm just saying it's a question we inherently can't trust the answer to."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Cannot decide if Tywin's massive AtE is a scum tactic or genuine frustration. It reads as the latter, which makes me question my reads, but it's also classic scum to fake fatalism.
Need to weigh Tywin objectively again.
VOTE: Unvote for now."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Experience matters. Newish people tend to act in certan predictable manners, while more experienced people tend to act in other manners.
If, for example, I were to come under slight suspicion, say 1-2 votes, and pitch a fit, throwing all kinds of AtE (Appeal to Emotion,) you'd probably be right to think me scum. If a guy coming from Town of Salem with one Newbie game here under his belt started doing the same, you might overlook it due to his inexperienced.
There's lots of stuff like that that can be assessed if you have an idea of the person's age, experience on site, and prior experience elsewhere."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Because I haven't interacted with this alleged Syryana person. At all.In post 2687, Gamma Emerald wrote:
Why not kill Syr based on this theory?In post 2545, Pine wrote:See, this exchange is making me think Alisae is SK instead of Vig. SK is worried about other shooters, Vig is just part of Town.
Jury's still out though."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Okay, disregard my last several posts then.In post 2786, Titus wrote:
Not a mason.In post 2784, Pine wrote:Because if they know you're a Mason, it's because they were privy to an investigative result that revealed your role; Town rolecops aren't unknown, but they wouldn't be actively hunting your partner.
If i scumread SSM, I would be pushing this further in hypotheticals."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Kyouko actually comes out of this with Townpoints. I figure a scum who spotted what they thought was a Mason crumb would just kill said person and be done with it, rather than try to publicly solve the game. Or at least they'd point out the crumb to their buddies in private and not share the observation with Town."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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This is the Townbloc I'm seeing right now, by the way:
==Upstanding Citizens==
Pine - My role PM says so.
Titus - Solid Townread, supported by consistent attacks by by Cloudkicker
Cabd - Solid Townread, supported by clearing Titus. No reason to clear her or even claim if scum.
==Probationary Members==
Sonia - Interactions with Cloudkicker. See post 2301 for details.
Kyouko - Recent developments, gamesolving
Nero - Attacked consistently by Cloudkicker
Alisae - Attacked consistently by Cloudkicker, probationary due to possible (even likely) status as SK.
Gamma - Attacked consistently by Cloudkicker
That's 8/14 of the playerlist. Hunh. I've never been especially good at Townhunting, but this game seems like a bit of a perfect storm for it.
==Scumlist==
Tywin - I reread him, and the scumvibes are strong. The fact that he has pretty much gone to ground after the pressure lifted from him reinforces the notion that the initial scumread was sound, and all that AtE was an attempt to gain sympathy. Fire away, Alisae.
Mozamis - Explored elsewhere, mostly to do with disingenuous and inconsistent reads and justifications.
That leaves a remarkably small nullpile...
==Meh==
Elbirn & AJ - I keep getting these two mixed up. Neither has come off as Townish, but neither have they made any notable errors or slips. They could be scum playing it close to the vest or cautious Town. I don't know yet.
Nosferatu - Who? I looked this guy up, and his site-wide wordcount in the last ten days is smaller than this post alone. That suggests NAI lurker to me, and probably flake-bait. Complains about catching up difficulties. I can empathize with that to an extent, but come on, man. We're no longer at a 20-pages-a-day pace. Skim a bit. I won't shed any tears if he gets vigged, though I always prefer someone scummy to a lurker any day of the week.
Syryana - Again, who? I haven't interacted with this slot all game. I see a ton of fluff and nonsense in his ISO. Lots of memes, not a lot of scumhunting. Actually, he hasn't posted anywhere on site in a week.
@Mod: Can we get a replacement on Syryana? Or at least a fairly insistent prodding?
Okay, there are my thoughts. Some feedback and discussion would be appreciated. Apologies for multiposting, I know that makes me a hypocrite and I don't care."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
Act 3, Scene 1 ofJulius Caesar, by W. Shakespeare-
-
Pine In Your Head
- In Your Head
- In Your Head
- Posts: 16763
- Joined: February 27, 2011
- Location: Upstate New York
While I am shamelessly multiposting at 6AM...
Note to Mod and other players: I'm might have somewhat limited access until after the first of the year. I think the place we're going has wifi, but I may be restricted to phoneposting."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
Act 3, Scene 1 ofJulius Caesar, by W. Shakespeare-
-
Pine In Your Head
- In Your Head
- In Your Head
- Posts: 16763
- Joined: February 27, 2011
- Location: Upstate New York