Perfect Masquerade [Game Over]

[Gentleman 3]

[Gentleman 3]

Dude 3 probably scum. Too many birds in his avatar, trying to present himself as something he’s not.

Coming from a literal numeral...

[Gentleman 3]

I was intimidated at first, but eventually I realized that you were all just as odd as I am

[Gentleman 3]

I considered nicknames but I think it would create more problems than it would solve. I was just gonna go with L9, G3, etc.

[Gentleman 3]

I'm now outnumbered by ladies 6:1

[Gentleman 3]

Have you decided which Lady you think is the cutest?

That's such a loaded question, how could I ever decide

[Gentleman 3]

Me. It hit me wrong.

What about it? You think it was overly conciliatory?

[Gentleman 3]

I think L7 is > rand town as well, but not for anything before 19.

[Gentleman 3]

Do you have any other > rand town reads, Gent 3?

Hmmmmm.

No.

[Gentleman 3]

I mean posts do bug me sometimes and I don’t know why, but still this reaction feels weird.

Eh, I think it was reasonable. It's best practice to not suggest a possible answer when you ask for an explanation of something, because you could be signaling to scum exactly how to tell you what you want to hear.

I was aware of this, but I figured the risk was minimal because it's only page 3 anyway, and trying to jump-start discussion was more important.

[Gentleman 3]

Speaking of being overly conciliatory.

[Gentleman 3]

Hi everyone! owo

I see your owo and raise you an uwu.

Also yet another lady pops in. Where are my bros at??

[Gentleman 3]

Please ignore the unfortunate post number of the previous comment.

[Gentleman 3]

About time another gentleman showed up!

[Gentleman 3]

I picked my avatar before knowing what number I was.

[Gentleman 3]

It seems initially scummy and lessens your chances of getting asked to the dance because it seems like you're afraid of engaging in a read of a player.

Why does a joke suggest that she's afraid of making a read?

[Gentleman 3]

L5, what made you think that the smiley faces might bother someone?

[Gentleman 3]

That assumes it is a joke.

She literally just said it was...

[Gentleman 3]

If you’re referring to my scumread on g3 because he had too many birds in his avatar, that was a joke.

This conversation is for the birds.

[Gentleman 3]

Hey! This feels like your real tone.

That it does. Good call.

[Gentleman 3]

“69”

:3
I still can’t get over that funny theory.

Gentleman 9 isn't even in the game lol.

[Gentleman 3]

I want no part of a version of the game where certain player types dictate pairings and no one else actually plays mafia.

I don't think anyone was suggesting this.

[Gentleman 3]

I mean the key is to make T/T pairings. If flips make a difference in how likely a pairing is to be T/T, then sure, but I'm wary of that because scum have pretty much no incentive to avoid bussing, so associatives will probably not be helpful.

[Gentleman 3]

Oh you're THAT Dawn.

That took me longer than it should have.

[Gentleman 3]

I'm confused as to why you townread Lady 4 because I think she's been the only person I outright scumread so far.

I mean I think she made it pretty clear why...

Do you expect that everyone else ought to be reading people's posts the same way you do?

[Gentleman 3]

bussing isn't necessarily an optimal strategy for scum.

I didn't say it was, but scum may well be indifferent about whether their partners die (particularly if they have one member who's clearly their best shot at endgame).

[Gentleman 3]

Isn’t it ideal for Gentleman 2 to choose a Lady that could be a Wolf.

Don't think so, because if he pairs with someone who has to die before LYLO anyway, the advantage of the IC is nullified.

You're on the right track though. He should probably pair with someone who isn't incredibly townread but could possibly get to that point.

[Gentleman 3]

It allows a confirmed Town to stay alive longer!
You don’t want that? :l

Our wincon isn't keeping individual townies alive, it's keeping town/town pairs alive. IC living to endgame is devastating if their partner is scum.

[Gentleman 3]

The reasoning she gave was pretty vague and I think I'm justified in asking her to follow up on it. Do you think that I'm not?

You're fine, you just phrased it obtusely. A more specific question would have probably better served your purpose.

[Gentleman 3]

Can we ask people to dance yet. bc like I am keen to do it early and do most of my reading under an assumed masons idea.

Actually, it might be smart for you to do that, and then keep your read on your partner completely secret.

[Gentleman 3]

Both claims are essentially unfalsifiable, essentially meaningless

Nothing's falsifiable except by flips...?

[Gentleman 3]

Hey can someone walk me through how to make an image avatar size?

If on Windows, download & open in Paint, Image -> Resize, keep aspect ratio and make it so width is <= 120 and height is <= 100.

If not Windows, no clue.

[Gentleman 3]

Lmao.

[Gentleman 3]

[Gentleman 3]

It is a shame, I would have preferred for us to be able to pick our names, or at least be given more interesting ones, but I also see why it was done this way.

I think the nickname plan was doomed to fail from the start, though everyone should still get an avi.

[Gentleman 3]

I knew this should have been played in a PT.

[Gentleman 3]

Lmao. I thought this would be a romance but it's actually a horror movie.

Any one of us could be the next victim...

[Gentleman 3]

Am I the last one to arrive?

Not quite, we're still waiting on Lady 6 and Gents 1 and 8.

[Gentleman 3]

Would you believe that I went to the first post for a playerlist to think about who my strongest townreads are? It wasn't very helpful.

LOL

[Gentleman 3]

No single man has ever been voted president

What are you talking about? Buchanan was a bachelor.

[Gentleman 3]

I suppose I shouldn't really be discussing that.

Yup.

[Gentleman 3]

I was more trying to figure out why you would do that?

I did it too ftr. Was curious and antsy for the game to start.

[Gentleman 3]

Please don't read L4 off of my read on them, I'm not actually sure they're scum anymore.

...was there a time when you were sure she was scum?

[Gentleman 3]

No, I was never 100% sure they were scum. There was a time that I was rather confidently scumreading them. I am no longer sure what my read on them is. Does that post really need to be asked?

Why are you repeatedly going after me forcing me to clarify things that really don't need any sort of clarification?

Because using imprecise language is bad? If you weren't sure she was scum, don't say you were sure, I don't really see what's hard about this.

[Gentleman 3]

I'm partial to mushrooms.

[Gentleman 3]

You act like I'm the first person on MafiaScum to say that I'm no longer sure if someone is scum or not without an investigative result. It's not uncommon to use this phrasing without literally thinking someone is for sure, beyond reconsideration, scum.

Well, chalk it up to differing experiences I guess, because I rarely see this (unless you're talking about people tunneling when they really aren't as confident as they claim).

Regardless, I asked for clarification because I was unsure, and clarification I got. We don't really need to dwell on it anymore.

[Gentleman 3]

I can easily think of a way G3 could be coming from a scum mindset here.

I mean, that post was in reference to me saying that "I'm no longer sure" isn't a common phrasing, so unless you think I knowingly lied about that to make G6 look bad and thought nobody would call me on it, then that interaction would go exactly the same way regardless of my alignment.

[Gentleman 3]

What irks me about this is someone’s continuity of opinion has been cut off without any clear indication of whose it was.

Yeah, it really ought to be revealed which slot was replaced.

[Gentleman 3]

Just did a full reread, my town pool is {L4, L5, L7, G5, G6}. Maybe G4.

[Gentleman 3]

Outside of some small concerns about Celeste I have practically no solid suspicions at this moment.

Interesting. Want to talk about this?

[Gentleman 3]

It wasn't an attack, though. I was confused, asked for a clarification, got one, and moved on.

[Gentleman 3]

362 was me being annoyed about G6 getting on my case for asking for clarification. Had nothing to do with the actual thing I asked clarification on.

[Gentleman 3]

If any part of that exchange was an attack, it was 356. That's pretty pointedly implying that there's something bad about my question.

[Gentleman 3]

I mean I think it's pretty clear-cut?
I ask for clarification in 350
G6 calls my questioning bad and heavily implies that it's scummy in 354 and 356
I defend my question by telling G6 that he shouldn't be ambiguous in 362
I later explain that I only wanted a clarification (372)

[Gentleman 3]

I'm attacking his choice of wording, sure, but not his alignment. Usually in a mafia context the word "attack" means an attack on someone's alignment (there's a reason I don't normally use it), so that may be the source of the confusion.

[Gentleman 3]

Communication is hard.

[Gentleman 3]

Site is more borked than G2's avi. Posting ability currently limited by my patience.

[Gentleman 3]

Tonally G3 feels fine most of the time, but his discussion with G6 felt a bit too much based on semantics.

What can I say, semantics are important. Do you think my wanting people to say exactly what they mean reflects badly on me?

[Gentleman 3]

Could just be a personality quirk

We don't have to talk about it anymore, but I can assure you this is what it is

That should become clear enough eventually.

[Gentleman 3]

Actually, am I missing something?

When I think about it, isn't this just a case of finding one town lady to pair with the IC, and then...just no one else pairs up at all (Ideally we'd come up with backup pairs to organize at the last second in case scum tries to make a S/S pairing in the last minute). Although this sounds like it's starting to get really unfun.

You would need three T/T pairs to make that work, because otherwise scum makes a S/S pair and then NK's a T/T pair.

[Gentleman 3]

Gent 4, I had good feelings here too, though it should be noted that their more recent posts have been light on talking about the game

Robin I will get a bit more heavy when the game starts pairing. Predance is a little toi cocktease for me.

[Gentleman 3]

Mod: Are replacements allowed to say that their slot was replaced?

[Gentleman 3]

Mod: Are replacements allowed to say that their slot was replaced?

Nah, I want their meta to affect the game as least as possible.

Understandable, but a possible problem with that is that then they might get asked to explain something their predecessor did, and they won't be able to but they also won't be able to say why...

Also, in some cases (like this one), it will be obvious what slot was trying to make the slip post.

[Gentleman 3]

I bet

If I could choose the lady that got left out it'd hit scum.

It would mean very little even if you did.

[Gentleman 3]

In terms of helping town. Odds are, whoever you pick wouldn't have survived to endgame anyway.

[Gentleman 3]

I'm not going out of my way to pick at you either, it comes easily

[Gentleman 3]

G5 being turbotown is definitely a hot take.

Sort of. G5 was pretty dang towny.

[Gentleman 3]

Given that these are very unpopular reads my goal was to simply let town do what they want for a while and if we don't end up flipping scum to leave the dance with 9 and an explanation why later.

Thank you for not doing this.

I disagree with you on L7 but not necessarily on L9.

[Gentleman 3]

G5 mainslipped and is getting replaced. I think L5 would be aware of that if she shared a scum at with him.

But in theory she could have been playing dumb.

[Gentleman 3]

Ok so real talk, I am not super keen on putting particularly huge stock in reads pre-dance.

I think it's important for surface level though to have some control over pairings.

Some people are good at getting reads early on, YMMV. Definitely we need something substantial to pair over, in any event.

[Gentleman 3]

How likely is it that scum will want to pair with their partners? Ive been part of a mafia/mafia lover pair in a lovers game and it was even more stressful and miserable than playing scum usually is. So my thought is they wouldn’t want it, but then someone made a post about pairing off before scum had a chance to pair off together, and now I’m wondering icky original thought makes sense. Is there some reason scum would want to pair with each other here?

Remind me to answer this after pre-dance.

[Gentleman 3]

Walk us through it a bit when you have time?

It's pretty hard to explain, I guess just prioritizing content over appearance? And I don't just mean the four word posts, I mean the focus of his posting stream was very much to push out as much content as he could without really explaining it or trying to make it look good.

[Gentleman 3]

G5 mainslipped and is getting replaced. I think L5 would be aware of that if she shared a scum at with him.

But in theory she could have been playing dumb.

I mean, yeah, that's absolutely something scum might do to try to avoid giving away inside knowledge. I don't think L5 or G5 are scum but I don't think this specifically rules them out.

[Gentleman 3]

You don't want to try and live to endgame?

[Gentleman 3]

G5 I just explained.

L5, I guess it's just that she's spitting out a lot of information in a way that doesn't really seem planned or controlled. It's not that there aren't people who do this as scum but most of the time that carefree, say-what-you-feel attitude is town.

[Gentleman 3]

Oh. That was in response to L9; I was saying I explained my read on you already

[Gentleman 3]

Is this a town-slip? All of dance games have been 1:2 or 2:1 for scum ratios.

That's just a coincidence.

[Gentleman 3]

Hey you.

Yeah you.

You town?

Yes.

Had a rough couple of days and the site habitually being godawful didn't help.

[Gentleman 3]

There's some sort of stanford prison guard experiment thing going on where alot of the gentlemen are in their roles as douchey guys at a club.

Isn't anonymity wonderful?

[Gentleman 3]

Well, to be fair. There are some really cool things that have come out of this game being anonymous. The intro pages where everyone was getting to know each other were really fun.

[Gentleman 3]

But now we have to like actually read people and it's hard because mafia is hard.

[Gentleman 3]

That... doesn't sound hilarious...

[Gentleman 3]

I rarely ever have the ability to play the way I want to play without risk of being scum read for it.

...Misogynously?

[Gentleman 3]

But I’d like Gentleman 3’s input on this.

I won't lie, I'm weirded out by your lock read on me. I don't think it's justified.

But more importantly, I'm quite confident that if you and I are T/T and we pair we'll be speedlynched at some point, regardless of our reads on each other.

[Gentleman 3]

@Gent 3
Which Lady do you feel you would work best with?

I don't think any nebulous statements about who I would "work best with" would outweigh pairing optimally, based on reads.

[Gentleman 3]

Huh. Just ISO'd L8. I don't feel like I should townread her but I kinda do.

[Gentleman 3]

Can we please stop with the altguesses? It would really suck if he started force replacing due to it.

+1

That seems pretty clearly against the idea of the game.

[Gentleman 3]

That pairing of G2-L9 lost its luster when L9 started posting.

FTFY.

[Gentleman 3]

This reads to me as something I would say in a scum PT.

???

[Gentleman 3]

Maybe I should dance with the lettuce lady.

Im a BIG sucker for those stories where the two people who dont like each other come together and find out they were meant for each other in the end

Not a good idea, if you both are town one of you would probably end up walking out on the other like a bonehead.

[Gentleman 3]

On a related note, if anyone here is considering forming a pair with the intent to catch your partner off guard by leaving-- don't.

[Gentleman 3]

I'm surprised L5 didn't respond to my posts from this morning.

[Gentleman 3]

Ooooooooh Explain this one!

I don't think L9 has ever been towny. Not much to explain.

[Gentleman 3]

Oooooooooh I thought I explained this one!

Did you? I don't think it's normal for scum to post reads in the scum PT as though they really believe them.

[Gentleman 3]

She's clearly a strong player; she's playing solidly, outing reads, asking questions, but there's nothing there that reads as specifically motivated by solving rather than motivated by keeping up the appearance of solving-- it could easily be either one.

[Gentleman 3]

People in the scum PT could be like “dont partner with G5 since hes probably getting lynched early or plans on leaving right away” or something similar.

But that's not at all what she said.

[Gentleman 3]

Pushing the game forward in the early game like she has is a plus for me.

Ehh. I don't really think pushing the game forward is that towny in a game where deepwolfing is everything.

[Gentleman 3]

Look at that post again.

Im saying it reads as something I would expect in a scum pt. It doesnt feel right. I dont know what more I can say.

She says she thinks she would sync well with me or you but she townreads me more than she townreads you.

Those are not genuine concerns scum would have. I don't see why they would be brought up in a scum PT.

[Gentleman 3]

Gentleman 3, do you think Lady 4 is town?

I remember townreading her but I don't remember why. I think part of it was a lot of going against the grain.

[Gentleman 3]

Do you town read her after review?

That's too much effort...

Gimme a minute to look and I'll let you know.

[Gentleman 3]

Yeah I still think she's > rand town. That's in large part due to 177.

[Gentleman 3]

Gentleman 3, is there a reason you haven't proposed yet?

- because I don't like making decisions
- because I think pairs should be widely agreed on
- because I want to pair with someone who wants to pair with me, and only L5 has expressed interest, and I have thought about asking her but have not yet come to a conclusion

Who are you thinking of proposing to, if anyone?

Depends on how people read me, which I really don't have that clear of a picture on. If people feel good about me I'd want one of my townreads (probably L5 or L7); if I'm going to be mislynched anyway, I would not want to drag them down and would instead try to pair with scum/lynchbait.

[Gentleman 3]

The interesting thing about that post is that I don't know that a lot of players were particularly townreading Lady 7 at that point

Explicitly it was only me and L9, though we were both very present in the early pages. Several other people had at least indicated that they didn't scumread her. I think it's reasonable to think of it as consensus.

[Gentleman 3]

I’m interested g3

If we hypothetically pair and are T/T (and don't die at intermission), do you think the odds are good that we can survive till endgame?

If not, I'd want you to pair with someone with whom you can survive till endgame.

[Gentleman 3]

You know, for 44 pages in, there seems to be alot of uncertainty for reads.

I mean, theres a reason/excuse I, G2, and maybe one or two other have, but the rest of yall idk what to think.

I have an excuse too, it's that I secretly suck at mafia. Don't tell anyone.

[Gentleman 3]

I doubt therefore I am.

Well, maybe...

[Gentleman 3]

I basically sidestepped the question by saying "it doesn't matter." I'm not going to decide who to pair with based on whether I'd work well with them-- I'm going to decide based on people's reads.

[Gentleman 3]

That isn't necessary (or allowed, actually), you can just ask someone else.

[Gentleman 3]

It's worked in previous dance games.

[Gentleman 3]

I don't see why that would be beneficial to do, though.

You're giving up control and handing it to people whose alignments you don't know.

[Gentleman 3]

I'm actually kind of uncomfortable with Lady 7 taking a potshot at the Lady 8 pairing and not offering herself instead?

How was that a potshot

[Gentleman 3]

Or maybe I should throw an invite out since Im such a whore

I don't care that you're referring to yourself, can we not use misogynistic language please.

[Gentleman 3]

If that's a setup for a future push it's the shittiest, bluntest one I've ever seen.

[Gentleman 3]

You think Lady 6 is townposting?

No, that was a response to 1142 about L7.

[Gentleman 3]

Why do the cute ones not like me?

I don't have anything against you but you've legit been MIA for most of the game so I don't have much to go on.

[Gentleman 3]

Solely on account of the fact that they haven't posted since I invited them, I'm kinda regretting asking L8.

You could probably threaten her into declining if you really wanted.

[Gentleman 3]

I reread Lady 8. A few brownie points, but I'm not crazy about her or anything.

Honestly I have a pretty hard time seeing her as scum. She just seems laid-back and natural in her interactions like she's just trying to contribute and prod wherever she can, rather than trying to project any sort of appearance. It resonates with me because that's a lot like how I play town.

[Gentleman 3]

I would rather leave out L2 than L5, I think L5 would be easier to read in the future.

[Gentleman 3]

L2 is town and readable, G3. You just don't have eyes or are scum.

No, I took another look at her ISO and I see what you mean now.

Her posts are just hard to follow on mobile, which is how I do a majority of my playing. So I will freely confess to not having read all of them in real-time.

I still think L5 will eventually be readable though.

[Gentleman 3]

To be fair, I think 1264 is perfectly fine, because it isn't a meta townread.

[Gentleman 3]

Lmao.

[Gentleman 3]

Leave out L3

If only we could.

[Gentleman 3]

G3 not asking anyone even though he's been around a lot feels weird. I don't like his I don't want to drag anyone down, can we make it to endgame really.

I worry that he's waiting to see if his partner is townread enough for a scum-scum pairing that will make them super strong scum pairing that they'll win in that end game stand off.

I mean the point of this game is to pair confident townreads with each other, so like, I only want to pair with someone I confidently townread if people also confidently townread me. It's common sense if you think ahead, but most people just aren't.

[Gentleman 3]

What makes me most nervous about his approach is that he has hinted that he'd like his partner to be chosen for him

I never said this, I want other people's input but if I do intend to survive to endgame I'm not going to pair with someone I don't townread.

[Gentleman 3]

And comments like those throw me for a loop because I really don't know where the town as a whole stands on me and that's vital information before I pair.

Pedit: did you not read what I just said

[Gentleman 3]

I didn't say you said it, I said you hinted at it, and you confirm this with the second part of your sentence in your response.

Fair enough, but any hints you might have thought you received to that effect were mistaken.

[Gentleman 3]

From the second half of that post, I basically want to know if people are going to try to lynch me or not.

If they can confidently tell me they aren't, I will probably offer to L7.

[Gentleman 3]

I shouldn't have signed up as a gentleman honestly, if I play again I won't.

I don't see what the rush is?

[Gentleman 3]

That's dumb.

[Gentleman 3]

If you want to play that game, you could assign a POSSIBLE scum motivation to literally any action. That doesn't help anything. What we want are probable motivations, not tinfoil theories.

What do you think is probably the reason I'm holding out?

[Gentleman 3]

maybe

but

your face is dumb?

Shit you got me there.

[Gentleman 3]

You think that's the most likely explanation, given that from your POV I have an 80% chance to be town, and scum-scum pairings in this setup are quite rare, and a move like that would require a confident player which I clearly am not?

[Gentleman 3]

(if he pairs with L5, hes getting speedlynched tomorrow)

Orly?

[Gentleman 3]

L5 is the only person who's put an ounce of thought into what will happen after I pair.

Everyone else refuses to do it and is just saying "make a decision already" without telling me how they will respond to what decision I make, as though I don't deserve to know that in order to factor it into my decision.

[Gentleman 3]

Yeah I'm not asking L7. She'd probably just leave on me if town.

[Gentleman 3]

Which, btw, is something I know L5 won't do.

[Gentleman 3]

So can you explain? What makes you think that 9 people in this game scumread me/L5 enough to speedlynch us?

[Gentleman 3]

I am concerned that G3 seems extra concerned about how he’s being read and wants to gauge how his potential partner is being read too

This is, or should be, the entire point of pairing. Townreads with townreads, nulls with nulls, scumreads with scumreads, then eliminate them generally from the bottom up.

But there's no consensus on me. And nobody is endeavoring to form one. They're trying to use my pair to determine their read on me, which is backwards.

[Gentleman 3]

What? You think I haven't? I've been trying to get your attention for ages.

Link? If you did, sorry, I missed it.

[Gentleman 3]

Here, I'll explain what my thoughts have been. That might help work this out.

L2 hasn't been on my radar till recently, 1258 specifically. I think L4 is right that she's definitely readable, though I myself have a hard time with that style. If I were to pair with her, it would be

to make sure she can live for a while.

L5 locktowns me and has expressed a lot of interest in solving me. That would make our pair very unified-- we live or die based solely on people's reads of her... unfortunately, I'm in a similar boat as with me in that there doesn't seem to be a consensus on her. I thought she was towny but as I mentioned before, pocketing isn't out of the question. If I were to pair with her, it would be

because she townreads me and won't ever leave the dance.

L6 I haven't read much of, what I've read has been fine, but she seems to be pretty townread. If I were to pair with her, it would be

because people have suggested that pairing.

L7 used to be my strongest townread. She isn't anymore. I'm not going to pair with her. But when I was considering it, it was because

I was most confident she was town.

And finally, a fifth consideration. Without giving away too much, one time I previously played this setup, I had a similar choice, and I went back and forth and back and forth in my head and decided on exactly the wrong option. As previously mentioned, I am bad at this game. And mafia is a team game. So I want help from my team.

[Gentleman 3]

Post 1122 and quoted again on this page.

That's just saying you would pair with me, not what you would do after we pair.

[Gentleman 3]

This is stalling, you know it, I know it. Theres over 50 pages of information, you should have some semblence of who to pick at this point.

Oh, I do. I have many semblances. See my above post. The problem is picking which semblance is the best.

[Gentleman 3]

Is it because you dont townread her, or because you both are scum?

I don't townread her as confidently as I would like (enough to bet the game on it), and I don't know how confidently the town as a whole townreads her.

[Gentleman 3]

G3 only wants to pair with her so whats the holdup.

Read on

[Gentleman 3]

I will go so far as to venture to say that I think the read on Gentleman 3 is generally shared by the majority and those who aren't part of that unanimity have weak enough reads that when players become more forthcoming about their stances tomorrow, they will be.

The funny part is even reading this I can't tell what the read is, but I assume it's town. (If I'm universally scumread I can't imagine this many people would care this much about who I ask.)

But if so many people think I'm town, then why are they pressuring me to pair by doubting my motives, rather than by explaining why expedient pairing is pro-town?

Like that's literally what's happening. The longer I wait, the more people are "omg I'm afraid G3 is scum stalling for info" and as far as I can remember, not a single person has tried to identify for what reason I might be stalling as TOWN and help me work it out.

So if I'm a universal townread like you say then people sure as hell aren't treating me like one.

[Gentleman 3]

Why do you think people plan on leaving?

It is a tradition in this setup for people to leave for stupid, petty reasons.

[Gentleman 3]

By which I mean people are (a) impulsive, (b) intoxicated by the power of being able to immediately kill someone, and (c) bad at calculating why it's mathematically not a good idea to leave.

[Gentleman 3]

Oof the survivability makes me want to throw up.

Also um... you realize that townies need to survive for town to win? If I'm going to be lynched anyway, it doesn't matter who I pair with. It only matters if people won't lynch me, and in that case I want a town partner who won't walk out on me.

[Gentleman 3]

Looks like L5 isn't townread enough for that pairing to work.

I'm gonna take a shower and then reread L2 and L6 and ask one or both of them.

[Gentleman 3]

Just a heads up. Your first ask is locked.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean you can't make a second one.

[Gentleman 3]

Lol. Town shouldnt do it impulsively and I think you are being too worried about the leave mechanic.

Spoiler:

@Mod: I'd like to leave the dance.

Dunnstral, who was

Town

Gentleman

, has

left

in

Second Dance

.

Bitmap, who was

Town

Lady

, has

left

in

Second Dance

.

Leave the dance

Vedith, who was

Town

Gentleman

, has

left

in

Second Dance

.

Firebringer, who was

Town

Lady

, has

left

in

Second Dance

.

Leave the dance

Dr Worm, who was

Town

Gentleman

, has

left

in

Second Dance

.

Pink Ball, who was

Town

Lady

, has

left

in

Second Dance

.

Anyways, I'd like to leave the dance

Dunnstral, who was

Town

Gentleman

, has

left

in

First Dance

.

MariaR, who was

Town

Lady

, has

left

in

First Dance

.

I would like to leave the dance!

Kokichi Oma, who was

Town

Gentleman

, has

left

in

Second Dance

.

Princess Celestia, who was

Town

Lady

, has

left

in

Second Dance

.

I’d like 2 lesve the dance pls

SirCakez, who was

Town

Gentleman

, has

left

in

Second Dance

.

Malakittens, who was

Town

Lady

, has

left

in

Second Dance

.

I will step out of the dance.

RadiantCowbells, who was

Town

Gentleman

, has

left

in

pre-dance

.

Lady Lambdadelta, who was

Town

Lady

, has

left

in

pre-dance

.

Let's leave the dance

Dunnstral, who was

Town

Gentleman

, has

left

in

Second Dance

.

MariaR, who was

Town

Lady

, has

left

in

Second Dance

.

Exit stage left.

Priscila, who was

Town

Gentleman

, has

left

in

Second Dance

.

Assemblerotws, who was

Town

Lady

, has

left

in

Second Dance

.

Vedith leaves the dance floor

Gamma Emerald, who was

Town

Gentleman

, has

left

in

first dance

.

Vedith, who was

Town

Lady

, has

left

in

first dance

.

leave the dance in a selfless manner

Shadow_step, who was

Town

Gentleman

, has

left

in

first dance

.

MariaR, who was

Town

Lady

, has

left

in

first dance

.

I want to make myself feel the sweet embrace of death and turn into stardust. (leave the dance)

mhsmith0, who was

Town

Gentleman

, has

left

in

second dance

.

pieguyn, who was

Town

Lady

, has

left

in

second dance

.

[Gentleman 3]

People die in mafia, if you worry too much about living youre not going anywhere mate.

This is a non sequitur that I think pretends to be an actual argument? Can you rephrase this in more formal terms, i.e. tell me exactly what your premises and conclusion are?

[Gentleman 3]

Lady 1's getting replaced, also.

[Gentleman 3]

Thats alot of posts with no context.

Well, yeah. But I just wanted to illustrate that it does happen.

[Gentleman 3]

That said, most of those people you quoted leaving (at least of the ones I looked at), Gentleman 3, left because they thought their partner is scum, not due to some insignificant quibble, which makes your post remarkably dishonest in the way it presents itself in context.

I mean obviously nobody would leave unless they thought their partner is scum, but I'd bet that some of them were fairly spur-of-the-moment. But there's nothing to lose by, you know, trying to wagon them first... and tons of information is lost when you just yeet out of there.

[Gentleman 3]

I just think you are too worried about leaving. Its not coming off as a town look to me.

Why not?

[Gentleman 3]

Why is that something I might fake concern for as scum, but for which I'd be less likely to really have concern for as town?

What are the odds that I don't think leaving is REALLY a big issue for town, but I'm scum and I'm pretending I do, because I think it will bring me some advantage?

[Gentleman 3]

I mean town has left the dance and been right in the past, but when I pair with someone, that's not what I'm concerned about, because it's impossible for them to do that.

And yes I was afraid of players leaving due to playstyle differences. I have been scumread for playstyle differences over and over, in almost every game I play. Usually that read works itself out with enough time, but if my partner leaves on me before it can, then they have potentially screwed town over in a major way.

I want L2 and L6 to weigh in on this when they get a chance. To both of you, if I pair with you, how will you go about trying to read me? What will you do if you scumread me? What will you do if I scumread you?

[Gentleman 3]

You want to make it to endgame, im starting to think its because youre scum.

It's because of math. For any other pair to make it to endgame, we could lose because the gent in that pair is scum, or we could lose because the lady in that pair is scum.

If my pair makes it to endgame, we lose only if the lady is scum. That straight-up halves our chance of losing.

I'm not saying I necessarily should make it to endgame, but it's the most important thing to consider in deciding who to pair with, because let's be real. Probably none of the other unpaired gents are going to live to endgame. So if I'm NOT making it to endgame, it doesn't MATTER who I pair with. Endgame potential is the most salient factor in my decision.

[Gentleman 3]

G3 if you pair up with someone that you later read as scum, would you leave?

Only if it was MYLO, and even then only with significant deliberation. Otherwise I would attempt to wagon them.

[Gentleman 3]

Do you really think that it doesn't matter who you pair with if you will not make it to end game?

Yes.

[Gentleman 3]

If things usually work out in time, how are you expecting the player base to know how later days will turn out or whether or not you will make it to end game?

I'm not expecting them to know, I'm expecting them to help me figure it out.

If things usually work out in time, why are you so scared of who you choose?

...Because they don't always, and because I just said it's possible my partner leaves on me before I can convince her I'm town?

[Gentleman 3]

How are you reading me presently, L6?

[Gentleman 3]

Also I'm not going to ignore his questions, especially when they only require a one-word answer. That's just rude.

[Gentleman 3]

At least G3 is sticking to his guns, even though they are weird and bad guns.

That's actually a really good way to describe me, lmao.

[Gentleman 3]

Perhaps I phrased incorrectly; If you knew you would die before you made it to the end of the game, you would not try to find and match with scum?

Okay, I see where you're going now. I was operating under the assumption that nobody's going to let any of the AFK gentlemen near endgame, which would mean that yes, I would have no incentive to match with scum because everyone not yet matched would die regardless.

If that isn't true, it I guess is somewhat important for me to match with scum, but it's far more important to just identify which other unpaired gentleman is the towniest and match HIM with town. Technically pairing with scum increases the chances of this, but it's equally effective to pair whichever lady I think is scum with a gentleman who also isn't going to make it to endgame.

Certainly, the possibility of a currently unpaired scum lady living to endgame with a currently unpaired gentleman is not the biggest concern of mine right now.

I somewhat understand, but you understand yourself better than anyone else here.

Yeah, you're right. Though I can't say I'm an expert on how people read me. If I were, my scumgame would be a hell of a lot better than it is.

Right, so does it not follow to pick the partner who you've stated before you have little doubt would stick with you until the end?

Not directly, because getting walked out on isn't the only way to die-- if people don't townread L5 and they want her dead, it doesn't matter that she townreads me.

[Gentleman 3]

For the record G4, I disagree with L6; I don't think you're being anti-town right now.

Like I said before, communication is hard. One of the supreme goals of town in a mafia game is to be able to understand how each other are thinking.

[Gentleman 3]

And tbh, getting questioned about my thoughts will frequently lead me to get them more in order myself. Same principle as how you don't really understand something unless you can teach it to someone else.

[Gentleman 3]

What, exactly, would you like me to offer? I'm not reading 60 pages of nonsense pregame.

It's not pregame...

[Gentleman 3]

You aren't townread enough for me/you to work out. I think it's pretty clear.

[Gentleman 3]

Why am I so not townread? I really don’t understand that.

Ask the people who aren't townreading you, idk.

[Gentleman 3]

“Hey I need someone thats going to live, sorry toots.”

This does not come from a town perspective.

Have you read a single thing I posted to G4?

[Gentleman 3]

Honestly, not really. I just saw that you got G4 to change his thought process.

I havent changed mine, you are way too worried about staying alive. The only townie that should have that mentality is the IC. The rest comes from scum.

News flash.

Town doesn't win unless townies survive. I don't know if this has occurred to you.

You should actually read the posts. I'm not going to go through explaining the entire thing again.

[Gentleman 3]

Is it possible to replace Out and grab someone to replace in?

Er, that could be a problem if you ask someone who's already in the game.

[Gentleman 3]

Oh jesus 20 new pages. I cannot parse this at the present hour.

Please don't have 20 more by the time I wake up

[Gentleman 3]

I haven't read everything yet, just skipped around. Will still read tomorrow but L5 I would like it if you gave a brief summary, in context, of what led you to this:

@Gent 3 Don’t pair with Lady 6. Choose either Lady 2 or me.

because I'm currently leaning toward asking L6.

[Gentleman 3]

If G5 and G6 are TvS it's no great mystery which is which.

[Gentleman 3]

By the way I'm aware that I'll probably discover the context for what I asked about as I reread, but I still think a concise summary will help.

[Gentleman 3]

@Gentleman 3 walk me through the history of your read on Lady 5. What posts made you change your read on her (if any)?

Can't point to any in particular. It's always been pretty holistic. And it really hasn't changed that much, either.

She's always had a posting style that is similar to what I call "classical obvtown," which is a perfectly reactive, perfectly spontaneous playstyle that very few people are capable of imitating convincingly as scum. (I could probably count the ones I've witnessed on one hand.)

Pretty much all my reading of her has been comparing her against that baseline, to see how closely she aligns with it. She is neither perfectly reactive, nor perfectly spontaneous, but I initially thought that what she was doing was very genuine, though that has dropped off somewhat, and paranoia that she (mis)identified me as a powertown and sought to pocket me has increased. (I still don't think her locktown read on me is justified. I think it never will be. There's a non-negligible chance I could have played exactly the way I am playing as scum.)

She was a strong townread, and now she's a weaker townread, but still a townread. However I think I'm warming up to L6, and several other people I trust have called L6 town, and so I think L6 is a smarter pairing for me. It's not as though L5's townread on me will go away if we don't pair-- although it is overconfident, it's still correct, and if she flips town people are still justified in believing it to a certain extent.

[Gentleman 3]

@Gentleman 3 (the Lady 9 quote was for context) - were you disappointed when Lady 9 accepted?

No.

[Gentleman 3]

My problem with this is that of the peel who did not have requests on the table, you were the towniest of them. The only others were the mostly absent g7, g1 and the wholly absent g8. If your strategy for end game was so important to you, and I at the time was your strongest townread, or a strong townread, how come that was not something you were vocal about in the earlier pairings? (If you were point them out because I don’t remember). Did you have strong townreads on the remaining gents? If not, why didn’t you consider that oh I’m leaving a strong town read of mine who I think should be at end game for possible scum?

That's a good question.

To be perfectly honest I don't know the answer for sure. But I think I do, and it's this: Nobody ever listens to me.

I'm pretty confident that if I had tried to weigh in on who should pair with whom in the earlier game, unless I was specifically asked, everyone would have ignored me. And honestly, my evidence for that lies in the way I was treated for trying to discuss longterm plans-- people ranged from dismissing me to outright scumreading me for doing it. If I tried to play matchmaker I'd be giving those same types of justifications and you can bet your boots that somebody would go "oh G3 is trying to pair his scumbuddies with strong townies, better not listen to him."

So my focus this game was on, and always has been on, the one thing I can control. That optimal? Surely not. But I'm a low charisma player, and I live with it.

[Gentleman 3]

You live in Great Britain, correct?

STOP.

Jesus.

[Gentleman 3]

L4, if I leave the dance (proof that I'm town) can you leave the dance after?

No no no no no.

[Gentleman 3]

Note that G5 is now calling me scum to discredit my push on him since simply calling my scumpartner scum did nothing to deter said push on him.

Lmaooo

[Gentleman 3]

Are you Alchemist?

STOP

[Gentleman 3]

Most of it barely pertains to you or your choice anyways.

After having read all of it, this is like, really wrong...

[Gentleman 3]

Because of the interaction between Lady 6 and Lady 1.
It is a similar interaction between Gent 5 and Gent 6 which could cost Town the game especially if they are all stubborn enough to Thunder dome themselves.

Okay so I finally got here with context, and the L1/L6 interaction really didn't seem more than a mutual suspicion, and those get reversed all the time. Doesn't seem like any thunderdoming will go on between them, at least not from L6's side, so I don't see why this should dissuade me from L6. (L1 seems a bit more hotheaded, but I wasn't gonna pair with her anyway.)

[Gentleman 3]

Okay I'm back at the present.

All things considered I think this has the best chance of setting us up for success.

Lady 6, let's tango.

[Gentleman 3]

Of course there is. it would be impossible for there not to be.

[Gentleman 3]

I like both of them about equally, but several people I trust, notably G6, have said that L6 is town. And I also think that L6 and I will have an easier time reading each other than L2 and I would have.

[Gentleman 3]

G5-L4 should suicide and then G6 can suicide our pair.

kthx.

no

[Gentleman 3]

I don't know who anyone is and I'm so happy about that.

[Gentleman 3]

Doesn't make sense for town her to want to die with the things she said

Does it make sense for scum her to pretend to want to die?

[Gentleman 3]

If she does a lamisting route yes

Is anyone actually reading her willingness to suicide as town though?

[Gentleman 3]

Guys it's not about actually wanting to die, it's about looking town by asking to die because scum doesn't suicide

It doesn't look town though. It's clearly an empty threat.

[Gentleman 3]

Because her attempt to look town has failed, she's... town? Uhhh come again?

I didn't say it made her town.

[Gentleman 3]

Also people alt guessing me as RC when RC is literally in this game is incredibly amusing to me.

Seriously what the hell

[Gentleman 3]

How hard is it to obey the rules of the damn game? They're not complicated or difficult rules!

[Gentleman 3]

Okay strategy people, I now understand why there's some need for strategy in the partners.

Sorry for being a hippie everyone should choose who they want with no thought about anything but that. Not that I think there should be dictatorial control, but.

I get it.

yyyyyup.

[Gentleman 3]

Am I the only person who thinks G5 is scum

Because if so I'll just leave and wash my hands of the game

You are not.