Smuggler's Port [Game Over]


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Post Post #47 (isolation #0) » Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:19 am

Post by Moment »

In post 35, Menalque wrote:
this is incredibly petty but: FakeGod, my name takes a capital at the start, if you wouldn’t mind for future VCs
I'd also like to be capitalized. Perhaps FakeGod just has it out for us "M"s. By which of course I mean Me and my Mafia partner, Menalque.

--
In post 43, Menalque wrote:I think we should talk about the tomboy daughter as little as possible
This is correct. This setup is also hilariously scumsided if the TD does not play well.

--
Ship: Wheat

Inspect: Copper


VOTE: Norwegianboy

Early townlean on notscience, Hel. Early scumlean on Titus.
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Post Post #49 (isolation #1) » Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:24 am

Post by Moment »

Despite my typical inclination towards town, I'm actually slightly disappointed to not have been made mafia here.

I don't consider myself a bad scumhunter necessarily, but I have no doubt that figuring out the TD as scum would be a much easier task for me.
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Post Post #106 (isolation #2) » Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:59 am

Post by Moment »

In post 56, Datisi wrote:
In post 47, Moment wrote:VOTE: Norwegianboy
[snip]
Early scumlean on Titus.
:?:
I assumed the read on Norwegian was implicit with the vote.

--
In post 58, Menalque wrote:Fun fact: I am scumreading exactly one (1) person who has posted so far
I'm pretty sure that literally every single time I've seen this in a game I'm in, it's been in reference to me. Am I correct?

--
In post 89, Titus wrote:
In post 83, maxwell wrote:
In post 74, Hel wrote:That's a good point from Titus. Do we check the scummiest 2 people then and try and hit scum?
No, the strategy is we vote Titus today.
Why? I don't recall ever playing with you, so this "strategy" vote/tunnel feels weird and out of place.
Why would the vote make more sense if maxwell was someone who was familiar with you and vice versa?
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Post Post #108 (isolation #3) » Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:02 am

Post by Moment »

In post 96, maxwell wrote:bland setup spec that doesn't even come to a meaningful conclusion, pure empty content. Subsequent posts have not been better.
This is basically the same thing that was thinking with regards to Titus' posts. I think this reflects more on maxwell being town than any sort of statement about Titus, however.

--
In post 99, Titus wrote:
In post 91, username wrote:Okay so this is a fakegod setup which means there's slim to no chance of finding a breaking strategy


I'm usually the first to object to denying tribute to the blood gods on day one but what if we no-execute and send out shipments / shipment check And work off that on day 2?

Reduces our risk of outting / killing the tomboy on day one. There's no night kill, and then we have a jumping off point tomorrow.
We have a jumping off point now. Unilaterally forgoing a lynch is bad.

Execute: username
Deliberately suggesting a strategy that's bad for town—the flaws of which are so immediately apparent as to be pointed out within the next three minutes—is not a real scum strategy. This is a bad vote.
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Post Post #111 (isolation #4) » Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:03 am

Post by Moment »

I think I take back my Titus scumread. Despite her vote being bad, I don't think it actually comes from scum – especially her subsequent unvote.

I actually feel quite happy with my initial vote.
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Post Post #113 (isolation #5) » Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:06 am

Post by Moment »

I don't feel that I could explain myself particularly well at the current moment and thus I won't attempt to. That being said, if I had to give an example, I think this post is fairly scum-indicative.
In post 100, NorwegianboyEE wrote:
In post 96, maxwell wrote:bland setup spec that doesn't even come to a meaningful conclusion, pure empty content. Subsequent posts have not been better.
I am willing to follow your line of reasoning for now.
Execute: Titus
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Post Post #128 (isolation #6) » Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:16 am

Post by Moment »

In post 115, Titus wrote:I am half wondering whether he was told I was weak day 1 and a safe place to push to eliminate me before I hit the point where I take off.
Who do you think would know this and have told him?

--
In post 116, Hel wrote:I buy username's townslip of not knowing scum's alternate wincon. He's giving me good Port Authority vibes too so he can be my shipmaster.
I agree weakly with this reasoning for username town, although again I might say that you making this read reflects more on you being town than on username.

--
In post 117, NorwegianboyEE wrote:
In post 113, Moment wrote:I don't feel that I could explain myself particularly well at the current moment and thus I won't attempt to.
Why did you vote me initially though? What was your thoughts in your first post?
I just said that I'm not going to attempt to explain myself at the moment. I'm not quite sure why you're asking me this, or what you're attempting to get out of it.

--
In post 119, Maki Harukawa wrote: Townreading on Alisae/Titus/Username so far. Can't say anyone has pinged my radar yet.
I'm interested to hear why you're townreading Alisae this early. I don't feel that he's done anything particularly town-indicative so far.
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Post Post #151 (isolation #7) » Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:29 am

Post by Moment »

In post 132, NorwegianboyEE wrote:
In post 128, Moment wrote:I just said that I'm not going to attempt to explain myself at the moment. I'm not quite sure why you're asking me this, or what you're attempting to get out of it.
Um... Solving your slot? I'm trying to understand what is going on in your brain. So i can find out if you are pushing me for something genuine or making things up as you go along... Do you... understand... that this... is a game... of mafia?
In post 128, Moment wrote:I'm interested to hear why you're townreading Alisae this early.
I only said i liked one of their posts. It's not a strong read.
Saying that your question is meant to "solve my slot" isn't particularly helpful.

There's a general assumption among all players in a game that (game-relevant) questions are implicitly asked with the purpose of solving a slot. A question like "What did you have for breakfast?" is pretty plainly not game-relevant, but a question like "Why did you make four posts in a row?"
does
seem to be game-relevant. With that in mind, if I asked someone "Why did you ask me why I made for posts in a row? I don't see the relevance of that question.", it wouldn't be useful if that person responded "I was trying to solve your slot." I am already working with at least the base assumption that that is what you are attempting to do, or at the very least you are attempting to appear as if you are solving my slot. The question comes from a disconnect in my mind between that apparent goal and what the question actually is, which to me does not seem to further the goal of solving a slot.

I'm not sure I was as clear as I could have been there, so allow me to repeat myself in a more concise manner. I don't see how the question you asked me does anything to further your solving of my alignment, and thus I inquired about it. Yes, I understand that this is a game of mafia, thank you.

Allow me to ask my question again more specifically – what is it specifically about that question that furthers your understanding of my alignment? I realize reading through my own post that I'm coming off somewhat harsh here, but I have to say that your question felt a great deal like just asking a question for the sake of asking a question – to
appear
to be doing something, while not actually getting at anything meaningful.



I was asking Maki why she townread Alisae.
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Post Post #157 (isolation #8) » Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:34 am

Post by Moment »

In post 148, Maki Harukawa wrote:
In post 128, Moment wrote:I'm interested to hear why you're townreading Alisae this early. I don't feel that he's done anything particularly town-indicative so far.
I found the post about set up information compelling and not something Alisae would need/want to fake as scum.
I agree that it's unlikely to be faked, but I disagree that it necessarily comes from town.

--
In post 152, NorwegianboyEE wrote:Oh god, why do the nutcases always go for me.
I don't really appreciate the attempt to frame what I'm saying as not making sense, both this and asking me if I understand that this is a game of mafia.
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Post Post #169 (isolation #9) » Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:50 am

Post by Moment »

In post 156, Maki Harukawa wrote:As someone who knows Alisae quite a bit better than the rest of you trust my word on it. I'm either scum TMIing a townread or I'm confident on it. Regardless, Alisae is town for now.
Normally I'm inclined to agree with this sort of argumentation, but this is a twisted version of it that I really don't like.

--
In post 165, Alisae wrote:ya i think {Datisi Mena and Icon} is a good place to start looking for scum
i could see it being one of them atm
Iconeum is a strange choice. What about his posts so far makes him a good choice for potentially being scum?

Are you saying that you townread most of the other posters so far, or is this just a list of scumleans?

--
For the record, the only one I haven't gotten yet is username.
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Post Post #207 (isolation #10) » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:57 am

Post by Moment »

Townreading notscience and scumreading Umlaut.
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Post Post #210 (isolation #11) » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:59 am

Post by Moment »

I suppose I should've been a bit more wordy. In my experience, RVS votes past the point where serious discussion has already began are a fairly reliable indicator of scum.
In post 199, Umlaut wrote:VOTE: Not Known 15

People without avatars are scum
His other posts do him no favors, but I imagine I'll elaborate more on that later on.
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Post Post #256 (isolation #12) » Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:34 am

Post by Moment »

In post 239, Umlaut wrote:
In post 210, Moment wrote:I suppose I should've been a bit more wordy. In my experience, RVS votes past the point where serious discussion has already began are a fairly reliable indicator of scum.
In post 199, Umlaut wrote:VOTE: Not Known 15

People without avatars are scum
His other posts do him no favors, but I imagine I'll elaborate more on that later on.
Kind of think I should acknowledge here that my vote isn't 100% random (though not really about the avatar and not because I have any sort of significant scumread on NK15; I don't have any sort of significant scumread on anyone yet)
The terminology of it being an "RVS vote" isn't the important part. What is is the fact that it's a seemingly non-serious vote—or at least, a vote given with a non-serious reason—past the point where real discussion has began.

In general I think your recent entrance to the thread shows little concern with sorting.

--
In post 241, Hel wrote: But I also don't like Moment completely dropping the issue after Norwee dismissed him, rather than pursuing it further.
I suppose I didn't feel the need to be very forceful in continuing the conversation in which the first response was to question my understanding of mafia and the second was to call me a nutcase. Not directly, at least, although I did bring up the deflection.

--
Town: {Titus, username, maxwell, Hel, notscience}
Scum: {Norwegian, Umalut}
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Post Post #779 (isolation #13) » Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:56 pm

Post by Moment »

In post 401, Menalque wrote:I don’t really see anything that jumps as town to me in the ISO, but I think the way [notscience] tried to pressure username only to back off when he realised who it was/that it wasn’t gonna go as anticipated is scummy
I disagree. To me, both notscience and username came away from that interaction looking townier. Notscience's trajectory of scumreading what he perceived as faked anger into asking others to vote with him into apologizing after realizing who username is does not in any way resemble a scum plan to me.

I think that in general scum plan things less than people think they do, but let's say that notscience did plan a push on username. If he were scum, why would he back down upon username giving his real identity? If notscience's plan was to push him for "faked anger", I don't think that the reveal of the identity would have changed anything. It makes more sense to me viewed as notscience realizing that the anger really isn't forced given the knowledge of username's true identity.

As for why username came off of it townier I won't go too deep into it, although I will say that I think is a somewhat towny post. I'm sort of projecting my own experiences there – personally as town I've had it multiple times where people have accused me of something and I just think "Really? You think that I would do
that
as scum?", whereas I think scum would have a different reaction.


Umlaut's calling this post "much better reasoned" does him no favors in my eyes, especially considering that this post is more of an assertion than a line of reasoning.

--
In post 427, Menalque wrote:
In post 426, Radical Rat wrote:But, until I get more experience with you, it also means that I can't trust myself to determine whether you're doing scummy things because you're Town being weird, or Scum using that as a shield.
Not being able to read me is fine, but does it not make more sense to default to assuming I’m town than assuming I’m scum given that there is a much higher mathematical chance of that in any given game?
Bleh.

--
In post 453, Radical Rat wrote:I'm getting scum vibes here. Like "Oh darn, it sure is a shame I rolled TOWN and not scum, because I'm TOWN, and also I should mention I'm TOWN!"
I also found the rest of their posts to be largely fluff with no real conviction.
It's funny you should call my posts fluff, because I've done basically nothing except talk about the game. With the exception of a single tangent to illustrate a point, I think I've talked pretty much exclusively about reads.

--
Looking at , I'm beginning to understand people's scumreads on Datisi.
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Post Post #780 (isolation #14) » Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:08 pm

Post by Moment »

Please understand that I don't mean it in an offensive manner when I say that Datisi's understanding of posts seems somewhat off. A lot of the questions in such as the Donnie Brasco, 14/17, and other questions to Alisae seem a lot like just basic matter of comprehension. Again, not trying to be condescending or anything, moreso trying to make a point that I think has already been made somewhere about cognitive load and how scum have a harder time with it. Datisi even explicitly said that , and then asks whether or not it was a joke anyways in 469.

--
In post 490, Titus wrote:I don't like EE being wagoned here. He's not defensive enough to be scum IMO. It's a meta read which is blah but it's better than most anything else on day 1.
Inquiring minds want to know – what exactly is your read history with Norwegian? Do you consistently read him correctly?

--
Maki's posts starting from I quite like. Perhaps she's finally town? I suppose my revenge must wait for another day.
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Post Post #781 (isolation #15) » Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:20 pm

Post by Moment »

In post 524, Umlaut wrote: Scattered thoughts:
I think we all agree Menalque is town.
I think not.
I think there's a high probability there is at least one smuggler in those who haven't posted since NK15 outed. (Which is six players so that's not a hugely impressive deduction I guess)
Why? Is there something causal about not posting since NK15 posted and being scum, or is this just a comment on the specific people who make up that group?

--
Townreads, strongest to weakest:
{Titus, Maki Harukawa, username, notscience, maxwell}
{Alisae, Hel}
{Radical Rat}

Vote: Umalut
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Post Post #782 (isolation #16) » Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:42 pm

Post by Moment »

In post 781, Moment wrote:Townreads, strongest to weakest:
{Titus, Maki Harukawa, username, notscience, maxwell}
{Alisae, Hel}
{Radical Rat}
I suppose I should mention that this leaves only {GuiltyLion, SS, Datisi, Menalque, Iconeum, Umlaut, Norwegian}. Of the seven, I think scum is most likely in {Datisi, Menalque, Umalut, Norwegian}, although obviously I recognize that that's just taking out the people who haven't posted much. (With the exception of GL, whose posts around page 28 are fairly good).

--
In post 618, Datisi wrote:
NorwegianboyEE wrote:
In post 607, Hel wrote:Taking out all the fluff
So you admit to fluffposting? :shifty:
Spoiler: :thonk:
In post 36, NorwegianboyEE wrote:
In post 35, Menalque wrote:
this is incredibly petty but: FakeGod, my name takes a capital at the start, if you wouldn’t mind for future VCs
Jeez, at least your name was spelled right. Have some gratitude ya snob.
In post 70, NorwegianboyEE wrote:Fun fact, i've got a folder of anime girl reaction pics too. But i've never had the guts to do the gimmick in a mafia game yet.
In post 82, NorwegianboyEE wrote:This game has too many weebs already, if i go all out here then people might start puking rainbows.
I'll try to restrain myself...
In post 105, NorwegianboyEE wrote:These spambots are getting quite advanced.
In post 129, NorwegianboyEE wrote:
In post 127, Datisi wrote:oh, can i add character images to my posts too?
No.
In post 219, NorwegianboyEE wrote:Whichever corrupt officials are bringing illegal goods in our perfectly legitimate copper business need to pay in blood. Now excuse me while i prepare myself some Earl Grey tea. It’s the finest.
In post 268, NorwegianboyEE wrote:
In post 264, username wrote:I will always and forever, regardless of alignment or even in MD, have nothing but contempt from the very bowels of the most ragefilled hell for "shitposting meta" in games
Aw boo hoo.
In post 430, NorwegianboyEE wrote:No way i'm listening to the plan of some no good no-avatar hooligan. NO SIR-E-BOB!
In post 431, NorwegianboyEE wrote:
In post 418, Alisae wrote:LeTs UsE aS mUcH aS tHe DeAdLiNe As PoSsiBlE.
We HaVe To UsE aLl Of ThE tImE GiVeN tO uS tO mAkE tHe BeSt DeCiSsIoN pOsSiBlE.
You're my spirit animal.
In post 433, NorwegianboyEE wrote:In fact,
Here @NK15

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=83480&start=125

Go get yourself an anime avatar UwU.
In post 503, NorwegianboyEE wrote:
In post 501, Menalque wrote:is backing the terrible “clowned” replacement option,
Ew
In post 504, NorwegianboyEE wrote:Only i should be allowed to use that term.
In post 534, NorwegianboyEE wrote:
In post 533, Umlaut wrote:I need to think more.
I'm starting to question why i signed up to a game that requires thinking.
In post 610, NorwegianboyEE wrote:Only cowards care about what pedits say.
In post 611, NorwegianboyEE wrote:(Also i’m phone posting so that really makes me care even less)
RAW UNFILTERED UNCENSORED NORWEE Right here, right now.


norwee can you respond to my pretty please?
Just going to put this interaction in the back pocket for now.

--
In post 642, Umlaut wrote:Everyone fluffposts, there's no reason not to admit to it, and there's nothing suspicious about admitting to it especially when it's as obvious as it is in Hel's case.
Take that back. I've never made a fluffpost in my life, and I don't even know what jokes are. I won't stand for this kind of accusation.

--
In post 744, Alisae wrote:
In post 743, Menalque wrote:Maki did have a point and I’m already at 125 posts
who cares
It matters. This game isn't moving at the breakneck pace that I've had to deal with before, but post count is a real consideration, and one that often goes ignored. To be fair, I think that in this game it matters less given that the game is ending earlier than normal one way or another, but still.
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Post Post #784 (isolation #17) » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:07 pm

Post by Moment »

I saw people voting for a "clown" and I guess I just couldn't see a better option.
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Post Post #930 (isolation #18) » Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:15 am

Post by Moment »

In post 887, Menalque wrote:@moment why are you not townreading me?
Should I be? I don't think you've done anything particularly town-indicative, you're voting the counterwagon to my top suspect, and said top suspect has rather strange interactions with you. Of course, I don't claim to already know two scum with 100% certainty, but I'd say the evidence is against you more than it is for you.

--
In post 915, Menalque wrote:It seems odd that scum!nk would insist on getting to choose the lynch while knowing that the town!PA is out there somewhere and able to CC at any point

And if he really thought it was me and he’s scum, then why worry about it so much? Idk maybe it’s worth it if the equation was that if I was town I never could CC because it would out the tombody daughter but idk

I’m thinking NK town
I'm inclined to agree. I don't see what NK15 did as anything resembling a real scum plan.
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Post Post #933 (isolation #19) » Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:19 am

Post by Moment »

In post 924, Menalque wrote:I think umlaut being counterwagoned is probably another point in favour of scum!notscience
Who exactly is it on the Umlaut wagon that you think is scum defending notscience?

--
In post 931, Menalque wrote:I think it’s strange given your townreads that I’m not also in your townreads, yes. What’s strange about my interactions with umlaut?
What is it about my townreads that indicates to you that you would be a part of them? Be specific, please.

I didn't say that you have strange interactions with Umalut – I said that
he
has strange interactions with you. Off the top of my head, the "we all agree Menalque is town" comes to mind.
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Post Post #938 (isolation #20) » Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:29 am

Post by Moment »

I will concede that if Norwegian is scum that makes notscience being scum far more likely, and vice versa.
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Post Post #951 (isolation #21) » Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:52 am

Post by Moment »

Someone once told me that the most common way that towns lose games is by focusing on the townies who do outrageous things over the silently scummy people. I think that that describes our current situation fairly well.
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Post Post #960 (isolation #22) » Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:02 am

Post by Moment »

In post 952, notscience wrote:Who am I missing, moment?
My point there was less so about "you should focus on these silent people that I think are being overlooked" and more "you should stop focusing on this townie who has done something incredibly outrageous".

--
In post 955, username wrote:
In post 951, Moment wrote:Someone once told me that the most common way that towns lose games is by focusing on the townies who do outrageous things over the silently scummy people. I think that that describes our current situation fairly well.

I once lost a game because GreyICE claimed miller on page one and the town let him coast to endgame


I once won a game as scum because I claimed cop with a guilty on mastina, who got lynched, flipped town, and the actual cop never counterclaimed me until endgame despite having a guilty on my partner.

Letting scum get away with outrageous things hurts a lot after the game is over.
This is negativity bias. Even when of equal intensity, we have a tendency to remember negative things—our failures—much more than we do positive things. There are likely a vast majority more games that you lost by ignoring silently scummy people than games that you lost by ignoring someone doing something really notable, but you remember the notable ones more than you do the numerous losses.

I think that if you were to actually go back and check, you would find a large number of instances of what I'm talking about. I know for a fact that I personally could give many examples of times town focused on outrageous things over silently scummy people, to their own detriment.
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Post Post #965 (isolation #23) » Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:06 am

Post by Moment »

In post 961, notscience wrote:You’re a towel.

I disagree vehemently. I read it like five times before I posted it to make sure I read it right.

Pedit-
Okay guys that’s fine we can leave scum nk until endgame and then act all surprised Pikachu when he flips red that’s fine too
I'm quite willing to risk looking foolish if I'm wrong. I believe my reasoning is strong regardless of the true result.

--
In post 962, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 960, Moment wrote:"you should stop focusing on this townie who has done something incredibly outrageous"
:igmeou:
Oh? Is there something you'd like to say? Yes, I think NK15 is town, if that wasn't clear.
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Post Post #980 (isolation #24) » Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:17 am

Post by Moment »

In post 969, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 965, Moment wrote:Oh? Is there something you'd like to say? Yes, I think NK15 is town, if that wasn't clear.
The point you're arguing is not something anyone would dispute.
Not really. I think you misunderstand me. My point is not to argue that town specifically doing outrageous things should not be lynched for it, which is obvious. My point is that things of this nature
come
from town more often than not, and time and time again towns hyperfocus on them to their own detriment.
Obviously, if we knew NK was town, we would not be wasting time getting distracted by him. The reason he is getting attention is not because he is high-profile but because he is scummy, and so you should be explaining your reasoning for why he is not scummy, which you've mostly skipped over, instead of pushing people to focus on the quieter players when they still scumread NK.
I may have been brief, but I did not skip over it. I agreed with Menalque and made the point that what NK15 did does not resemble a real scum plan very much to me.

--
In post 970, username wrote:No, because do you know what GOOD TOWNS do to people who fake claim?


They kill the fake claimer.
The best town players know not to dogmatically follow rules such as this. I see that I will not change your mind, but I take confidence in the fact that I know that what I am talking about—this principle—is correct more often than it is incorrect.

Also, please do not misunderstand me. I'm not claiming that people who fakeclaim are always town – that would be silly. Obviously, in something such as a Normal game, fakeclaims most often come from scum. My argument is more to do with this specific situation.
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Post Post #985 (isolation #25) » Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:23 am

Post by Moment »

In post 971, Umlaut wrote:
In post 779, Moment wrote:I think that in general scum plan things less than people think they do, but let's say that notscience did plan a push on username. If he were scum, why would he back down upon username giving his real identity? If notscience's plan was to push him for "faked anger", I don't think that the reveal of the identity would have changed anything. It makes more sense to me viewed as notscience realizing that the anger really isn't forced given the knowledge of username's true identity.
I feel like this is
Like this is...?

Also, please answer this question, which you ignored:
In post 781, Moment wrote:
In post 524, Umlaut wrote: I think there's a high probability there is at least one smuggler in those who haven't posted since NK15 outed. (Which is six players so that's not a hugely impressive deduction I guess)
Why? Is there something causal about not posting since NK15 posted and being scum, or is this just a comment on the specific people who make up that group?
--
In post 975, username wrote:
In post 965, Moment wrote:I'm quite willing to risk looking foolish if I'm wrong. I believe my reasoning is strong regardless of the true result.


I guess that's where we beg to differ because I don't want to lose a town game just because you're okay with scum fooling you.
Do you really believe that I am "okay with scum fooling me"? Please don't misrepresent me.

I expect that if NK15 is lynched and flips town there will be a wave of accusations of gamethrowing, how bad he played, how town should never do that, et cetera, et cetera. As there always is in situations such as these. Soemtimes, people are unable to see the pattern of mistakes that they consistently make, game after game.
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Post Post #990 (isolation #26) » Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:28 am

Post by Moment »

In post 986, Something_Smart wrote:Yes. Fortunately, we can go more specific than "NK did a weird thing and therefore is more likely town"; we can look at the actual thing and determine whether there's town or scum motivation.
Exactly as I did.
And this one happens to have clear scum motivation, and dubious town motivation.
Perhaps. Allow me to be clear in that I don't think that what NK15 did was a
good idea
. I think it was fairly stupid, even if only for the situation that it's currently put us in. That being said, it really is a question of mindset – does NK15 truly believe that what he did helps town? That it was a good idea? I think the answer is yes.

--
In post 987, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 985, Moment wrote:Soemtimes, people are unable to see the pattern of mistakes that they consistently make, game after game.
Sure. And the best way to help them see it is to kill them every time they do it and then blame them for the loss :P
If you want to lose a lot of games and blow a lot of air at people who probably aren't going to change, sure.

--
In post 988, GuiltyLion wrote:
In post 781, Moment wrote:
I think there's a high probability there is at least one smuggler in those who haven't posted since NK15 outed. (Which is six players so that's not a hugely impressive deduction I guess)
Why? Is there something causal about not posting since NK15 posted and being scum, or is this just a comment on the specific people who make up that group?
man given that NK15 was fake claiming this especially stands out as weird now
Is it? You asked .
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Post Post #1008 (isolation #27) » Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:29 am

Post by Moment »

I don't think that I've made this point yet, so considering that it seems relevant to the current conversation I'll make it now – I think this game is exceptionally scumsided.

Lynching two scum out of three in five days—nightless—is already not quite the easiest of tasks. I'm not an expert at calculating EVs, but I can't imagine that it'd be very high, or at least much higher than other games. Then we add all of the mechanics related to the cargo, the TD, and the PA. I honestly do not believe that these help town in any significant way, and the instant lose condition of scum knowing who the TD is makes this game a veritable
landmine field
. On top of that, it's a landmine field in which one player's bad play can instantly lose the game for everyone else. I expressed all of these sentiments to FakeGod before the game began, and he
agreed with me
. Do you know what he said? It was something along the lines of "better hope the TD is good!"

What I'm trying to say here is that I think town needs every possible advantage it can get, and so I'm not willing in the slightest to lynch someone whom I'm not convinced is scum. We don't have that much leeway.

--
In post 999, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 990, Moment wrote:That being said, it really is a question of mindset – does NK15 truly believe that what he did helps town? That it was a good idea? I think the answer is yes.
1 This is basically contingent on him being someone who's played for almost three years and made two thousand posts and yet cannot recognize an obvious joke, complete with a funny gif and a joke reply.

2 Not only that, but you'd have to believe that he studied the joke claim enough to determine it was likely true, which no doubt would also entail looking at the context and the reactions.

3 And yet, despite all this planning-- and the thing was meticulously planned, since he had a whole spiel prepared-- he never thought to crumb that his claim was fake, in case he was counterclaimed.

Alternatively, you could just believe that he's taking an ill-advised dive for his teammates, probably against their wishes, to help rule out possible daughters. Since the game lasts a fixed number of days, he might do this if he thought he'd be executed at any point, and thought it would benefit his team.
1 Yes, I believe this to be true. Have you read his posts?

2 I don't think you have to believe he "studied" it. The opposite, really.

3 Crumbing really doesn't mean anything. You certainly recognize that scum possess the capability to crumb just as much as town do. You ask why he wouldn't crumb as town fakeclaiming – I ask, why wouldn't he crumb as scum fakeclaiming? Even if he's "taking a dive" as you say, certainly it would still be better for him to live longer. So why not crumb? The answer is that—barring meta—that's really more of a personality trait than any sort of hard rule. I think that you know this, so this point feels a lot like rhetoric.
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Post Post #1017 (isolation #28) » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:40 am

Post by Moment »

In post 1013, Menalque wrote: It’s kind of hard to explain. I don’t think maxwell or maki had done enough for you to be TRing them in . I think specifically that they were void of content that would indicate their alignments. Maki is definitely strong enough as scum that they could make any post there as either alignment. Maxwell actually isn’t that bad in ISO and I was more concerned about his early posting which is where that scumread came from. I didn’t like the way that he seemed to jump onto the chance to suspect GL when I said I was SRing him and I thought his first 3 posts were very easy to make as scum and didn’t really commit him to anything.

I also didn’t like from maxwell because the first bit seemed like an empty question and the final two points felt like they were just void/avoidant.
I townread Maki because I know who she is and because of my experience with her. It's not particularly strong given that she's one of the few people in the game with less posts than myself, but at the moment I have no reason to doubt it. I'm probably not going to elaborate on maxwell just because there aren't any posts of his that I actively remember as being super town-indicative and I don't really feel like going back to give examples – it'd just be post-hoc anyways.
I find it odd that you’re not townreading me unless you think I’m actively being scummy given that me being this enthusiastic about a game is generally town indicative for me, and I don’t know how you’re seeing a town thought process in ali and titus that you’re not seeing in me. As in: I feel what they’d contributed up to that point, if it was towny enough for you to think it’s actual town and not faked, should also be something you’re seeing in me. Or if you don’t see it in me, I don’t think you should be TRing ali or titus either.
It seems to me that there's an element of specificity here that you're not seeing. I don't townread Alisae and Titus just because of the vauge "their contributions are good", thus indicating by the fact that I don't townread you that "Menalque's contributions aren't good", or anything along those lines. I townread them
specifically
for various thought processes I've seen from them that I feel are far more likely to come from town than from scum, and that has very little to do with post count. It's similar to why I townread Maki – one specific element that I feel is more likely to come from her as town than scum, despite her low post count. (I will say that this is more the case for Titus than it is Alisae, hence my ranking Alisae lower.)

So, at the risk of redundancy, I'll restate myself It's not really about a vague "towny contributions". It's about specific posts that I don't see as coming from scum, and—to memory—I don't recall seeing any of those from you.

--
In post 1015, Menalque wrote:Moment can you talk to me about what you think is scummy about norwee? Because I tend to SR him regardless and I was thinking he was town here. I still think you’re wrong about datisi but I wouldn’t necessarily expect you to understand why
I suppose you've figured something out, then. Sure. I'll make a separate post.

I don't exactly scumread Datisi very strongly – I think it's more accurate to say that I see no reason to townread him.
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Post Post #1026 (isolation #29) » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:57 am

Post by Moment »

Actually, I'm not going to go too in-depth into it. I'm just going to cite some posts with a little commentary.

His response to NK15 I think is fairly bad. I also think the tone / word choice in these posts is fairly scummy, although I am unsure exactly as to how having English as a second language would affect this.

Spoiler:
In post 893, NorwegianboyEE wrote:Once in my homesite i saw a VT claim vig after a vig shot. When the real vig counterclaimed them and they got inevitably lynched afterwards they said they did it to "protect the real vig and make scum waste a shot on VT" and that town was dumb for lynching him.
I believe NK15 is the lying one here, but i don’t know if he’s town or scum. If town i think he’s stupid as hell. But gotta consider the possibilities. After all, i’m curious what scum would have to gain from fake claiming here if they know they’ll be CC’ed.
In post 897, NorwegianboyEE wrote:@Not Known 15
You did it to "protect the PA" or did you fake claim to out the real PA?

Because there is a nonzero chance you did the second.
In post 898, NorwegianboyEE wrote:
Eliminate Not Known 15

Keeping my vote here for a bit.
In post 908, NorwegianboyEE wrote:If NK15 is town then he’s misplayed hard. But i’m not really willing to take that chance.
In post 911, NorwegianboyEE wrote:Heading into radio silence anyway now. So might not change vote due to that reason.


I think short, low-justification high-confidence meta reads are an easy way for scum to justify answers that they already know.

Spoiler:
In post 722, NorwegianboyEE wrote:I think you both are quite easy to read for me at this point tbh, and i'm ready to just settle on both of you being town.
If C9++ and that newbie game i had with Mena are any indication then he is lazy as scum. Here he actually efforts.
Alisae mostly agenda posts as scum, not what they're doing here.

I think his trajectory on username is scummy, especially . Just search for "username" in his ISO and read all of the instances.

I think that he has multiple instances of deflecting when people scumread him. Not just obviously towards me, but towards others as well.

Spoiler:
In post 652, NorwegianboyEE wrote:
In post 645, Alisae wrote:ok lets kill umlaut
VOTE: umlaut
Why Umlaut?
In post 653, Alisae wrote:notty vote bad
titus vote bad
In post 654, NorwegianboyEE wrote:Looks like the start of a decent wagon.
VOTE: Umlaut
In post 655, Alisae wrote:norwee what the fuck are you doing?
In post 656, NorwegianboyEE wrote:Sheeping u.
In post 657, Alisae wrote:do u even have reads
In post 658, NorwegianboyEE wrote:Damn, you giving me an existential crisis with that tone. What the FUCK am i doing? With my life?
In post 659, NorwegianboyEE wrote:I have reads but they are mostly gut. I think u are town tho.
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Post Post #1036 (isolation #30) » Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:04 am

Post by Moment »

In post 1021, Menalque wrote:Okay, it would be helpful if you were to go back and to highlight specifically what you think the towny thought processes you think you’ve seen in both of them are, because I haven’t seen that. Admittedly, I haven’t been looking super hard at that because I feel it’s not something I’m great at spotting but I think I’m more able to judge it when it’s pointed out to me explicitly by someone else.
I probably won't, honestly. I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think it's particularly worth the time when neither have even a single vote at the moment. Maki still has so few posts that I would prefer to wait before attempting to convince others on my own read. For maxwell, as I said, it would just be post-hoc justification. I'm a believer in the fact that trying to force yourself to explain your intuition is very harmful to one's ability, and I think the cognitive science backs me up on this. I'll quote it for you the next time I'm reading and he makes a post that I think is town-indicative.
I’d still like you to answer the question about whether you’re an alt or not: I won’t pursue the line of questioning more than that, but I’d appreciate a simple “yes/no” just so I can stop thinking about it.
I'm not.
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Post Post #1053 (isolation #31) » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:42 pm

Post by Moment »

It's almost comical how many of the same cliches you see game after game. "Can't make endgame", "Can't leave it for later", "We'll be wondering all game", so on and so on.
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Post Post #1055 (isolation #32) » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:44 pm

Post by Moment »

Yes, how clever.
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Post Post #1102 (isolation #33) » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:53 am

Post by Moment »

It's such wishful thinking to me to think that NK15 is scum. Either wishful thinking or pure laziness.

People just see "Oh, looks like he got caught fakeclaiming" and their brains stop thinking past that point. There can't be any more nuance, anyone who did that must be scum. Yes SS, I've already heard and responded to you talking about the scum motivation, you don't need to say it again. I feel as though you're making a failure of theory of mind – I don't think you're properly trying to think from NK15's perspective. I think his posts from the rest of this day strongly evidence the fact that he has pretty strong convictions in the setup that you're not considering when you think about motivation.

To anyone who says anything along the line of "well he'll always be a question mark so we have to deal with him", your mindset is truly flawed. There is nothing forcing your hand. Any sort of "obligation" you feel is completely constructed. Obviously you feel as though he's scum for what he's done, but my main point here is that that's just an
element
of a
read
, not any sort of obligation that something "must" happen. I say this because I think thinking along the lines of how someone "has to die anyways" is poison to thought. I have experienced it before where someone
agreed with me
on reasons to townread someone they thought had to die before endgame, and yet
still
they said "It doesn't matter anyways if I townread her, because she can't live to lylo".

There, just as it is here, I feel that once people had constructed in their head that someone could not live to the endgame, the relevance of reads on that player was out. Death eventually had to come, and specific arguments didn't really matter because of course she has to die anyways. I don't feel as though that mindset is germane to having a discussion or to winning the game.

This upsets me even further because NK15 is already among the least eloquent, least charismatic, most mislynched players on the entire site. If you're wondering why I keep making comments about making the same mistakes over and over, it's because I see the same players get lynched over and over by the same other players. Adding the situation with the PA on top of that is just too much. I was in the same situation as NK15 once upon a time, and I got out of it only through a grueling few days of
constant
argumentation
and
pushing a wagon on scum over myself. Of course NK15 was never going to get out of it. It just feels so unjust.


I wonder if some people even believe in the scumread themselves – truly believe, rather than just belief in belief. You're calling him a "douche" and getting really angry at him. What's the point of that if it was just a scum ploy to do whatever?
In post 1082, Iconeum wrote:the one thing i was unsure about was how to handle these douches who thought it was smart to fake claim PA and try to fake-lead on town
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Post Post #1115 (isolation #34) » Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:28 am

Post by Moment »

In post 1109, Menalque wrote:I have a question about the mechanics, namely: is it actually net beneficial to have investigations or not?

As in, do we gain enough of a chance to catch scum vs accidentally outing the tomboy daughter or significantly reducing the pool has to hunt for her within that we shouldn’t just play this as a straight up white flag nightless?
It seems to me that if the PA were to just give a single player whom we investigated, that would be—if not strictly better—at least somewhat better than entirely ignoring the mechanic. That being said, I'm not completely against ignoring the tea mechanic, although I think it would mean that Iconeum would have to prod dodge for the rest of the game.

Assuming that we lynch town today, we'd actually need to hit tea in a group of no more than five people to at least give us better odds of hitting scum in that group than just any three out of sixteen. Of course, that assumes only one scum in the group rather than multiple, but we can't know that anyways.

--
In post 1112, maxwell wrote:Anyway NK15 has outed as not TD and so there is no benefit to not sorting him at some point in the game. Even if we decide he's town for sure, we keep him to endgame and eliminate 2 scum anyway, they know not to pick him. So I don't see a real point in preserving him no matter what. Having an unknown merchant claim means you should resolve their alignment in some way. We either eliminate him now or put him in a check to get a result, and he'd be the first to go on any positive result in a group anyway (also if he's actually town I'm fucking pissed at him and he can sit in the dead thread and meditate on what he's done).
The point in "preserving him" is to not lynch town. I'd say that's a pretty important aspect of this game.

I forget who it was that made this point, but it was a good one – we only have five chances to lynch scum in this entire game. It just doesn't make sense to give one of those lynches up just because you "don't see the point in preserving someone". You're displaying the exact mindset that I talked about – you say "we either eliminate him not or put him in a check", when the reality is that nobody is forcing anything. There is no
need
to lynch him, and while I wouldn't be opposed to it, there's also no
need
to check him. You're not talking about reads here, you're just talking about some invisible obligation that you've constructed in your mind.

Your line about being angry at him is completely indicative of everything that I talked about earlier. You're not properly putting yourself in someone else's mindset. You're so caught up in something being terrible play coming from town that you think it
must
be something coming from scum – but have you not experienced this before? Have you not been in this exact same situation, claiming that if someone really is town they're unbelievably terrible and they must be scum, and yet they flip town anyways? The question I'm really trying to ask is this: have you not noticed by now that town does outrageous things game after game after game?
Basically what I'm saying is I'm not reading a single word Moment posts for the rest of the day. He can bloviate all he wants, I don't give a shit.
Mature.
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Post Post #1149 (isolation #35) » Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:40 am

Post by Moment »

@Menalque, If you want some posts to explain my maxwell read you can pretty much look at the ones on this page.

As a side note, this may be my confirmation bias speaking, but reading this post gives me the feeling that Umlaut has been keeping track of who is not the TD.
In post 1145, Umlaut wrote:Trying to catch up now and it looks like everyone is talking mechanics.

There are a number of people who have already been spewed not-TD in the process of this discussion. In their case the damage is done. Why don't we just put all of them (or a subset of them) on the shipment to be inspected? Then we don't give scum any information they haven't already gotten, all we do is determine whether there's scum in that pool.
Also, I wanted to say that I'm taking back my Maki townread for now.
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Post Post #1151 (isolation #36) » Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:46 am

Post by Moment »

I think there's a difference between directly responding to someone making actions to indicate that they are not the TD and "keeping track of who is not the TD", but I will concede that my point is a fairly weak one.
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Post Post #1154 (isolation #37) » Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:11 am

Post by Moment »

As I ate breakfast this morning I was ruminating a bit on game theory and mafia, so allow me to go into a bit of a tangent.

A lot of times when people are lynched and flip town, people will still say that it was the "correct decision" to lynch them, or something along similar lines. I expect that that would be said if NK15 were to be town, and to be fair I have already said that I would say something similar if he were to flip scum – that I think my reasoning was still strong. What do people mean by this? How can something be the "correct decision" if it was incorrect? Are they just unable to accept that they were wrong?

Perhaps, but there
is
at least something deeper there, and it relates to being "probability-oriented" rather than "results-oriented", if you've heard those terms before. I'll illustrate by way of example. Let's say that you're playing a game with a coin weighted so that heads comes up 2/3rds of the time, and tails 1/3rd. If you correctly call the flip, you gain a dollar, and if you're incorrect, you lose one. The correct decision is obviously to always call heads, no? A less obvious example: you're drawing and replacing red and blue cards from a deck where 60% of cards are blue and 40% are red, and similarly to before you have to guess whether you'll draw a red or blue card. Many people will say that the correct strategy is to guess blue 60% of the time and red 40% of the time, but the correct strategy is to always guess blue.

What's my point with all of this? These games have an obvious "correct strategy" – one that maximizes your winrate. Despite that, the coin might still come up tails, and you might still pull a red card. If that happens, does that mean that you made an incorrect decision? Similarly, if you were to guess tails instead and the coin came up tails, did you make the correct decision? This is the core division between being probability oriented and results oriented. A results oriented way of thinking would say that tails was correct if the coin actually came up tails, but being probability oriented tells you that there's no reason to guess anything other than heads. People who say that actions were the correct decision even when they were wrong are being probability oriented, and in some sense they're right to be. Generally being probability oriented is a lot better than being results oriented.

Maybe everyone already knows all of this, and I don't mean to condescend. But I'd like to bring my point back around to mafia now – as I've said, people often say that lynches were correct even when people have flipped town, and in some situations they may be right. But mafia is a lot more complex of a game than those simplified examples I gave – in those, it's obvious what the best strategy is, and so one can be quite confident in saying that even if tails were to come up five times in a row, heads was still the correct decision to make. I don't think the same is true of mafia.

Here we come to basically my thesis of this entire post: I think that, in mafia games, people convince themselves that they're being probability oriented a lot more than they actually are. There's an unbelievable amount of information available in any given game of mafia with which to read people and thus with which to make decisions, and thus to say that something is "the correct decision" is much less clear cut than with a game of weighted coins. Something may be the correct decision under the rule of "generally believe cop claims", but that's not the same thing as
the
"correct decision". Of course, it's no easy task at all to recognize when to go against common rules such as that – in fact, I would say that it's a trait of only the best of the best of town players to be able to recognize when to go against common wisdom, and I don't claim to hold any such consistent ability myself. Even still, I think that most people could do with examining some of the rules that they unknowingly chain themselves to, as well as looking a bit more at some of that unbelievable amount of information available to them – especially after they've been on a lynch that ended up being wrong. At the very least, I think that would be better than immediately jumping to the conclusion that one is always perfectly probability-oriented, because the truth is that's not the case for any of us.
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Post Post #1157 (isolation #38) » Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:23 am

Post by Moment »

In post 1155, Umlaut wrote:Moment, it is a common phenomenon in many games, of which I think Mafia is one, that good players more often lose because they think they have found an exception to the usual guidelines for good play and are mistaken, than because they followed those guidelines too closely.
As I said, I think that it's a trait of only the best of the best town players to recognize such a situation, and I don't think that I have that consistent ability myself. That being said, I have done it before.

That being said, I don't think this is relevant to our current predicament, because I don't even think that not considering NK15 as outed scum is "excepting the usual guidelines for good play". If it was, I would have been more specific as it relates to the current game.
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Post Post #1202 (isolation #39) » Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:49 am

Post by Moment »

This is a bad pool that I don't understand. Iconeum, I suggest you reconsider.
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Post Post #1237 (isolation #40) » Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:20 pm

Post by Moment »

Mystery stories of any kind are, of course, the best. Romance stories are alright, although I find that the common tropes grow fairly predictable. It's rare to find a truly well written one.
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Post Post #1437 (isolation #41) » Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:41 pm

Post by Moment »

Quelle surprise, tea was found.

There are a great number of reasons why I am upset at Iconeum, but perhaps the one most worth mentioning is that he had the option to shorten the night to 24 hours and chose not to.

VOTE: Notscience
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Post Post #1438 (isolation #42) » Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:43 pm

Post by Moment »

For the record, I never stopped townreading Maki. I said that I retracted my townread on her because I wondered if perhaps the fact that she could get townread despite her low content would allow her to coast by if scum, and so I wanted to give even a small nudge towards her producing more content.
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Post Post #1468 (isolation #43) » Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:23 pm

Post by Moment »

Umlaut has moved up since your last readslist?
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Post Post #1472 (isolation #44) » Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:29 pm

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I'm not sure how to interpret those votecounts as justification.
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Post Post #1477 (isolation #45) » Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:37 pm

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In post 1475, Menalque wrote:If notscience is scum, which I’m putting as “likely” given that I’m townreading you + datisi and I don’t think Icon is suicidal enough to dictate the pool and then put the TD in, then it looks to me like when notscience was coming under pressure, a counterwagon went up on umlaut that was then diverted onto NK15 once the fakeclaim shenanigans happened and he was an easier target
Hm. I agree that Norwegian and Alisae are notscience's most likely partners by association and they were on the Umlaut counterwagon, although in general I'm hesitant to extrapolate too much from the shifting of wagons in a game with 17 players and only 3 scum.
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Post Post #1478 (isolation #46) » Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:39 pm

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Even still, I'm not sure that I personally would consider that criteria for a townread. I've found that clearing someone simply for being a counterwagon to scum is often a mistake.

That being said, that's just me.
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Post Post #1481 (isolation #47) » Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:50 pm

Post by Moment »

In post 1480, Menalque wrote:Are you townreading me yet, moment?
I think there might have been a time near the end of the day yesterday when I was, although if I had good reasons I can't remember them.

I would predict that there is little chance that I end up in a situation this game where I push for your lynch, so functionally I suppose I'm townreading you.
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Post Post #1649 (isolation #48) » Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:13 am

Post by Moment »

In post 1646, NorwegianboyEE wrote:From my POV it’s quite telling how easily NS got wagoned. Me being the only one to defend NS shows that scum are content with the lynch today. So either NS is town or scum are hard bussing him. Now tell me which you guys think is most likely.
Neither you nor Alisae seem to want notscience lynched, so there's at least two people. I'd also add NK15 and maxwell, but we're getting a bit away from the point.

Even if we grant that this argument is sound from your perspective, why should it be convincing to anyone who doesn't already townread you?
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Post Post #1681 (isolation #49) » Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:50 am

Post by Moment »

I seriously considered refusing to ship wheat and may have done so if the day went on for longer.
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Post Post #1689 (isolation #50) » Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:10 pm

Post by Moment »

In post 1687, Umlaut wrote:Also we
definitely
have to investigate NK15.
Why?
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Post Post #1694 (isolation #51) » Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:17 pm

Post by Moment »

In post 1690, Umlaut wrote:
In post 1689, Moment wrote:
In post 1687, Umlaut wrote:Also we
definitely
have to investigate NK15.
Why?
I mean, mostly because I refuse to lose the game to a living NK15 who was caught in a lie midway through day 1.
Are you aware that this is a purely emotional play?

It seems to me that if your goal is to minimize your chance of losing or maximize your chance of winning, choosing an investigation based off of today's lynch is the method to do that. That is to say, an investigation based off of the information gained from notscience's flip.
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Post Post #1705 (isolation #52) » Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:13 pm

Post by Moment »

In post 1696, Titus wrote:It would be best for the health of the town for him to be investigated.
What exactly does this mean? You'll have to excuse me if it reminds me of the sort of meaningless talk I've seen in the past that I've already talked at length about.

--
In post 1700, Umlaut wrote: Yeah, as I phrased it it's purely emotional.

Maybe the thing to do would take the best single person to inspect given notscience flips green, and the best single person given he flips red, and put them together? But I think NK15 has to be at least one of those.
Is NK15 being one of those people something that you believed before I brought any of this up, or is this post-hoc reasoning? Be honest with yourself, the answer doesn't really matter to me.
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Post Post #1774 (isolation #53) » Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:12 pm

Post by Moment »

I'd rather he didn't handpick.
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Post Post #1778 (isolation #54) » Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:24 pm

Post by Moment »

In post 1775, Iconeum wrote:so if i do this, i'll be eating shit again even tho my first selection turned out great
Don't get full of yourself. Don't forget that your first selection for a lynch didn't turn out great.
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Post Post #1784 (isolation #55) » Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:32 pm

Post by Moment »

In post 1782, Iconeum wrote:
In post 1778, Moment wrote:
In post 1775, Iconeum wrote:so if i do this, i'll be eating shit again even tho my first selection turned out great
Don't get full of yourself. Don't forget that your first selection for a lynch didn't turn out great.
yeah ur right i'm terrible

i wasn't able to catch scum in a SEVENTEEN!!!! player game that has all of THREE!!!! scum in it on DAY ONE!!!

i'm so bad lol
That's not what I said.
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Post Post #1794 (isolation #56) » Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:39 pm

Post by Moment »

In post 1789, Menalque wrote:I don’t want umlaut investigated, my 2 would be (norwee, nk15) just to hopefully kill the paranoia there
I think that mixing together an investigation that you expect to result in a guilty (presumably Norwegianboy) with a "paranoia" investigation, so to speak, is a bad idea.

Thoughts?

--
In post 1790, Iconeum wrote:Moment, who would your pick of 2 be?
I'm a fan of GL's pool in .
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Post Post #1799 (isolation #57) » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:09 pm

Post by Moment »

In post 1797, Menalque wrote:
In post 1794, Moment wrote:I think that mixing together an investigation that you expect to result in a guilty (presumably Norwegianboy) with a "paranoia" investigation, so to speak, is a bad idea.

Thoughts?
Eh it’s a bit of a gamble and I see what you mean, but my logic is that if notscience flips scum then I/we probably have enough clout to keep the guillotine off NK15 in that scenario and to get it
on
to norwee
I think that perhaps you would be surprised. But of course, that's just my prediction.


--
I think that including both Alisae and Norwegian in the same pool would be suboptimal. In general I think that when creating an investigation pool around expected partners of an expected scumflip, you ought to include one and leave one out. The logic goes something like this – if you're investigating the people who you would already consider your lynchpool for tomorrow, the only outcome that would really change what you were going to do anyways would be an innocent result. If you already consider X and Y to be the likeliest partners of Z and you were already only lynching among them, then getting a guilTea result doesn't change all that much.

Including one, excluding another and including an unknown third party (a sort of "wild card") seems to me to be a better way to narrow things down. Innocent result, lynch the partner suspect you left out and if you're wrong then you realize that both of your most likely suspects were incorrect and in the process you gained an innocent on a third party. GuilTea result, lynch the partner suspect in the pool and if you're wrong then you've still won despite investigating a less suspect third party rather than your top picks for partners.
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Post Post #1800 (isolation #58) » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:11 pm

Post by Moment »

Of course, it's possible my thinking there is flawed. It's true that investigating both of your top suspects assuming a scumflip today still either wins the game in two more days or proves to you that both of your top choices were wrong. Perhaps my objection is more based on the specific people rather than any sort of general principle of the best way to investigate in this setup.

I doubt it really makes all that much difference.
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Post Post #1956 (isolation #59) » Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:48 pm

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Thank you for shortening the night.

VOTE: Alisae
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Post Post #1979 (isolation #60) » Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:49 pm

Post by Moment »

Maxwell scum was an angle that I'm almost ashamed to admit that I hadn't really given proper consideration until you just said that.

I'd like to see more from Hel today.
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Post Post #1983 (isolation #61) » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:51 pm

Post by Moment »

In post 1981, NorwegianboyEE wrote:Scum was probably hard bussing them based on their apathy so i wouldn’t clear anyone based on how strongly they were pushing for their elimination yesterday.
I don't think this connection between apathy and being hard bussed is a good one.

The most sensical reason for notscience to have said nothing yesterday is because he—and perhaps the rest of his team—realized that he was certain to die over the rest of the people in the investigation pool, and thus he minimized the amount of associative information left for town after his death.

I would go further as to say that if Datisi
were
to be scum, notscience certainly would
not
have played the way he did yesterday. If Datisi were to be scum I imagine that notscience would have pushed much harder for his lynch, or just in general have attempted to live much more. If you'll allow me a bit of a tangential metaphor, anyone with enough familiarity with puzzles can tell you that there's a natural tendency to discard puzzle pieces from your mind after they've been used once, even if there's no reason that that should necessarily be the case. What I'm trying to say is that I think that people would naturally assume only one scum in the pool, and I think that this assumption would only be furthered if notscience were to attempt to live much more strongly, and thus it would benefit him as scum to do so if Datisi were scum.

This might seem like WIFOM, but I don't think that it is. Basically, my point is that notscience as scum benefits from staying silent yesterday no matter what, but he also could've potentially benefited his team more by attempting to live
if
Datisi were scum, or from an outsider's perspective if one of me or Datisi were scum. Crossbussing has a tendency to throw people off.



Of course, this might mean less coming from me, but I always like to imagine that what I say makes sense even detached from myself as the one saying it.
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Post Post #1984 (isolation #62) » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:53 pm

Post by Moment »

That post is a lot less coherent than I would prefer, but they can't all be winners. I think I got my general point across.
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Post Post #2097 (isolation #63) » Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:18 pm

Post by Moment »

In post 2063, GuiltyLion wrote: p-edit: NK15 I think you're misinterpreting Moment's , I don't read that as sarcasm I think he's saying he was genuinely surprised at finding tea.
No, it was sarcasm.
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Post Post #2098 (isolation #64) » Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:30 pm

Post by Moment »

In post 2082, Radical Rat wrote:I do recognize that this couldn't really have been done intentionally in this instance since Iconeum decided the pool, but if Ico DID happen to find multiple scum there,
they could definitely still try to coast off that
.
This statement doesn't really mean anything to me.

Once again, without seeing any sort of truly persuasive argument as to why there are multiple scum in the D1 pool or as to why me or Datisi are aligned with notscience, I can only consider this as another mostly emotion-driven play. There is logic in
not clearing
people solely for being in an investigative pool with scum, but that itself is not an argument as to heightened suspicion on those people. I personally see evidence against the idea that there are multiple scum in the pool, as I've talked a bit about.

Of course, there is the argument that further investigations only serve to make it easier to find the TD. This makes at least intuitive sense, although I can't help the feeling that there's something deeper regarding investigating the person we would have lynched tomorrow anyways without an investigation, and how much that would/wouldn't narrow down the pool. Those are really only the vague beginnings of a thought though – I'll think a bit more about it. While I'm on the subject, people have been bandying around who is or isn't "confirmed" as not being the TD a lot. There are exactly three people
confirmed
as not being the TD: Norwegian, Radical Rat, and SS.
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Post Post #2238 (isolation #65) » Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:33 pm

Post by Moment »

I'm essentially prod dodging here, although I've skimmed.

Maxwell proposing himself along with me and Datisi seems like an attempt to poison the well and potentially get one of us on the chopping block tomorrow instead of likely just him. A rather uncharitable interpretation, but the one that most immediately jumped to mind.

Investigating me and Datisi is still a stupid decision, but including Maxwell would be moreso. I would not comply with it.
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Post Post #2242 (isolation #66) » Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:39 pm

Post by Moment »

Haven't been able to give this game much time so you're still getting loose thoughts.

If Alisae is scum, with the way he's playing I would expect that he already knows - or thinks he knows - the TD. Also, if Alisae is scum then I would guess Maxwell isn't, simply because I would expect Alisae's buddy to also be playing in a very low-effort manner given the (theoretical) impending 2nd scum lynch.

The point I'm trying to get to in a roundabout manner is that I'm wondering if I'd rather vote Maxwell today. There is certainly an element of recency bias in this.
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Post Post #2244 (isolation #67) » Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:44 pm

Post by Moment »

In post 2239, Menalque wrote:
In post 2238, Moment wrote:Maxwell proposing himself along with me and Datisi seems like an attempt to poison the well and potentially get one of us on the chopping block tomorrow instead of likely just him. A rather uncharitable interpretation, but the one that most immediately jumped to mind.
What happened to your maxwell TR on D1?
Day two happened.

All reads grow "stale" with time and with more information. I'd say the same thing regarding Hel. I'll try to give you a better answer when I get the time.

---
In post 2240, Menalque wrote:
In post 2238, Moment wrote:Investigating me and Datisi is still a stupid decision, but including Maxwell would be moreso. I would not comply with it.
Also, why?

This makes like zero sense

If tea turns up, we’re flipping maxwell first anyway

If no tea then we’ve removed the next obvious suspect and we haven’t reduced the pool the TD is in
Are we
decidedly
flipping Maxwell first anyways? The basics of it are that I think Datisi is town but I couldn't say the same about Maxwell and I'd rather simply investigate a suspect alone than potentially be in a guilty pool with him.
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Post Post #2425 (isolation #68) » Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:29 pm

Post by Moment »

Oh, looks like I'm dead. My timing is impeccable as always.
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Post Post #2429 (isolation #69) » Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:36 pm

Post by Moment »

Menalque, I'm unsure as to why you gave my day 1 read on maxwell so much weight as to have it change your mind despite my not really giving much reasoning for it. I'm unsure if you still think that I'm someone else or if we've played before (because I recall only mentioning what you talked about in 2604 in one game years ago) and that's why. Regardless, I know this may sound strange to say but if we play again I would prefer you didn't give random reads I make without much justification that much weight. Of course, it's up to you. I suppose it's just that if I wanted to convince someone on something, I would probably give reasons – otherwise, it'd just be me making notes of where I'm at.

GL, I can go a bit more into my logic on the investigation post-game. I think your interpretation is a little uncharitable, assuming you're town. I also think that you overstated the degree to which you claim I would have resisted the investigation, but that ship has already sailed, pun slightly intended.

Iconeum, I have no animus against you, but I have to wonder if you have one against me. My reactions to NK15 and you D1 gave away no information and as such I was still a very viable target for being the TD. Of course, there's absolutely no way I could be objective about this sort of thing, but I still believe that I was a poor target for investigation.
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Post Post #2430 (isolation #70) » Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:36 pm

Post by Moment »

In post 2427, username wrote:
In post 2425, Moment wrote:Oh, looks like I'm dead. My timing is impeccable as always.

Reads?
It doesn't really matter.

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