Holiday Dance Party ---- Game Over

[GuiltyLion]

hello hello hello friends!

Datisi I did roll town! Are you sure you didn't know that already?

[GuiltyLion]

i did not know that and i in fact still do not know that

if i were serious i'd say 26 slightly pings me the wrong way but could be my own confbias and also i feel like everyone would hate me if i were to already try to get the game out of rvs soooooo

You can just say it if you don't plan to propose to me! I know I get sweaty sometimes I'm definitely not gonna be the most desirable meme partner

but I

am

town, soooo I do hope you'll see it with time

[GuiltyLion]

I AM TOWN!!! I really am!!! I'm just really scared I'll be the one person not picked lol like, this is a fun group of people, I wanna have fun

if you're worried about not being picked, why'd you tell the Mafia not to ask you? they gotta ask somebody too

[GuiltyLion]

i also want to lie to myself and say that i would definitely be able to tell between town! and scum!you if we were in a hood together but who knows

it ain't a lie my scum game is really not that good and I believe in the MindMeld

[GuiltyLion]

how are you out of dance lyrics already, a third of all songs that exist are about dancing

[GuiltyLion]

dancing on my own
dance yrself clean

[GuiltyLion]

Oh don't you dare look back
Just keep your eyes on me
I said you're holding back
I said shut up and dance with me!

^that's actually my default karaoke song it always slays

[GuiltyLion]

I was having fun when we were talking about songs about dancing

I feel good vibes from Datisi. I dunno if I'd want to accept a proposal from marcistar, her posts were meh

[GuiltyLion]

I was having fun when we were talking about songs about dancing

I feel good vibes from Datisi. I dunno if I'd want to accept a proposal from marcistar, her posts were meh

so you're not having fun when playing mafia?? scum????

why good vibes from me?

ok ok you caught me I am still having fun so far

I don't think you're trying to pocket me at all, 35 doesn't seem like you're even thinking about having to pocket me. so far it feels like honest paranoia

[GuiltyLion]

like I think mafia who know me would probably be scared of proposing to me but 35 sounds like you kinda want to, which like, would scum!Datisi really want to

[GuiltyLion]

like I think mafia who know me would probably be scared of proposing to me but 35 sounds like you kinda want to, which like, would scum!Datisi really want to

we've been waiting for a town/town win for years now so like, pairing with you and then winning if we're t/t would be very grand

but, scum!datisi is a petty little shit, and when someone heavily beats my ass i really wanna win the next time i play with them, and win in the meanest way possible (pocket that person, take them to lylo etc) so if you're town, scumtisi would probably also want to pair with you

ah okay, maybe I underestimate your pettiness. so I shouldn't be townreading you (yet) then?

[GuiltyLion]

I dunno if I'd want to accept a proposal from marcistar, her posts were meh

oh i wanted to respond to this too but then i didn't - why did you bring up marcistar?

cause in general I think throwing some Suspicions out there will move the game forward but also if that was your gent scumread and it was a mutual feeling then that'd be cool

[GuiltyLion]

The scumlean was marcistar but I didn't want to bully her right away in the intimidating world of theme games and I actually think 113 is decent enough that I don't hold the scumlean anymore.

FMPOV I don't really townread 113, she kinda assumes that I'm town, doesn't want to hood with me, yet it's got a bit of a buddying vibe to it.

I could see town writing that post but it's not hard for me to imagine scum writing it either

[GuiltyLion]

Yeah I don't want an IC partner

That's like every level of bad possible

I'm also not sure about this

I wouldn't mind an IC partner. It definitely has anti-town utility in that it means you personally can't use your hood ability to sort and I guess in some sense it might be good to force scum to pair with IC so it becomes weird when they don't NK themselves, but scum could easily leverage that for WIFOM if Taly gets paired with a limbaity town slot and there'd be fun in having a conftown to hydra with.

I'm not sure what's best play around the IC in terms of who we should try to set up there but "every level of bad possible" feels exaggerated in a LAMISTy way

[GuiltyLion]

I wouldn't be surprised if 4/8 of them are maf

really? you put 9 red marbles and 7 green marbles (Taly being conftown isn't in the pool) in a bag and draw 4 green and you're not surprised?

[GuiltyLion]

in 174, andante said "I SR a bunch of gentlemen, I wouldn't be surprised if 4/8 of them are maf". like, it's obviously saying that she has so many scumreads within the gentlemen, she wouldn't be surprised if all scum were gents. and what does guiltylion do? he chops off that part of the post, which is literally right there next to the part he does quote, and posts 180, which frames andante's post as a pure mathematical probability question when it clearly wasn't that, and the context was right there and he removed it and whyyy

but the reason I asked Andante that is because the idea that "4/8 of the gents are mafia" (which actually should be 4/7) is so probabilistically low that it's a ridiculous thing to claim to believe when you have no information at this stage. I don't care how many gents you're scumreading, the odds of it are so low in a vacuum that no one should be saying they think all the mafia are in the gentlemen, I can't grok that as an Intellectually Honest belief. I don't think the context changes anything about my question, that's why I chopped it off. I have a pretty math-y attitude towards these things and Andante's claim is extremely questionable, for me the context changes nothing about the part I quoted and I assumed it wouldn't for anyone else either.

for the record, if I'm mathing right, the odds of 4 mafia gentlemen is like 1%. it changes slightly from an informed perspective, but still

[GuiltyLion]

informed perspective meaning knowing your alignment as a Gent/Lady, not informed like mafia informed

[GuiltyLion]

Is improbable speculation a sign of a mafia alignment? This feels like a gotcha more than a legitimate line of inquiry.

not necessarily, that's why I used a motivating example and get a response from Andante. It's not a 'gotcha' it's a "is this

actually

what you think?". If absolutely nothing else I'd want Andante to look harder at the other ladies, because it's almost guaranteed at least one scum is a lady.

I don't like that you're acting like I was straight up pushing Andante over this, rather than interpreting my post as trying to sort her.

[GuiltyLion]

it feels somewhat natural for me to go from "wow, i have so many scumreads in the gentlemen" to "haha, wouldn't be surprised if all scum are in there".

eh, this is the disconnect. That latter thought is Always Wrong, you should be Extremely Surprised if all scum are in there, even if you have like an absurd amount of confidence in your reads

[GuiltyLion]

not necessarily, that's why I used a motivating example and get a response from Andante.

so, what did you get from her response?

honestly not a whole lot. I kinda like the 'dgaf' attitude like I don't feel any self-consciousness about the Bad Math from her. I gutlike that she's pushing back on you saying it was bad faith too, I don't get a sense that she wants/needs to deflect me at all

the biggest thing I got out of this was a catboi scumread, 226 is both thoughtless and uncharitable

[GuiltyLion]

Call out someone expressing a ridiculous belief, say "you can't actually believe this! It's improbable!", use that as basis for suspicion

the thing is, you're putting words in my mouth by assuming I would use that as a basis for suspicion. I might if she reacted in a way I didn't like, but I didn't even get a chance to think about her response or reflect on it before you started assuming I was acting in bad faith

[GuiltyLion]

it feels somewhat natural for me to go from "wow, i have so many scumreads in the gentlemen" to "haha, wouldn't be surprised if all scum are in there".

eh, this is the disconnect. That latter thought is Always Wrong, you should be Extremely Surprised if all scum are in there, even if you have like an absurd amount of confidence in your reads

do you usually take things so literally in mafia? i don't remember you doing that as town

like, even if i were scumreading a couple of gents and said "damn, wouldn't be surprised if all are in there", it wouldn't mean that i literally would not be surprised, it would just be a way to use colourful language to speak my read on the gamestate. obviously i can't claim andante was doing that, but i don't think it's too difficult to assume that someone *could* be doing that, so...

here's an example that comes to mind where pretty much this exact thing has happened before, and I got scumread for it there too.

I actually think it's important to hash these things out because people's brains have bad probability intuitions and to me it only leads to confbias and bad reads when you think things like we might have 4 scum gentlemen absent any hard information.

the biggest thing I got out of this was a catboi scumread, 226 is both thoughtless and uncharitable

how is that post different from what i said? didn't i basically say the same thing - that your post reads like a gotcha?

I don't like that catboi responded to my explanation of my first post to you to act like that was a push on Andante. I feel like you disliked the question itself but catboi is the one who is making claims/assumptions about an intent behind it.

[GuiltyLion]

I like/agree with Prism on Cabd

I could have possibly bought the "very obviously town" phrasing as intentionally spicy to provoke discussion, but Cabd getting defensive about it and doubling down afterwards points away from that idea. Feels most likely to be Cabd buddying catboi to me

[GuiltyLion]

what crossed your mind when you guys first saw this post?

Taly is aligned with

Town

.

casually demanding every player respond

I actually thought it was a little weird it was announced 24 hours before gamestart. felt like a small advantage to scum

[GuiltyLion]

I don't like that catboi responded to my explanation of my first post to you to act like that was a push on Andante. I feel like you disliked the question itself but catboi is the one who is making claims/assumptions about an intent behind it.

i find this odd, because i very much thought "huh, guiltylion is using that bad faith to push andante" and i thought it was obvious from my "hey, why are you asking this bad faith question" questioning line that i thought it was being used to push andante because what else would you even use the bad question FOR but like

ahhh

eh, I dunno, I think also there's a "first mover" bias you get in your favor too probably

also I had thought your initial issue was with the whole "GL dropped the context" idea and I can easily buy that as a good faith disagreement/disconnect on your end. Catboi just didn't seem to consider at all that my first post was questioning rather than pushing

[GuiltyLion]

like I can imagine my post probably does look worse if you genuinely believe that the original context of Andante's post would change/explain her statement, so I didn't feel like you were raising it in bad faith. I didn't see a similar thought process from catboi

[GuiltyLion]

I've thought about it more and I actually just straight up townread Andante now. not so much because of the math thing but I think her emotions are genuine and also claiming to scumread so many gents as a lady mafia doesn't really make any sense as a scum agenda to me

I think Datisi, Prism, and Fire are townie as well

catboi actually I think maybe looks better too given that Cabd read and I did like when he said he was townreading Firebringer

Ydrasse/STD/LLD I didn't get any town vibes from yet but nothing that made me raise my eyebrows either
Alyssa/RH9/Galron similar lack of town impression but slightly more negative vibe

(all of the above six I need to think about more and pay attention, wouldn't feel comfortable calling them either way)

marci/cabd bonafide scumreads

[GuiltyLion]

recipe for disaster but maybe

why would it be a recipe for disaster

[GuiltyLion]

so if you're both town, what would the issue actually be. like what are you afraid of, incorrectly paranoia leaving or what?

[GuiltyLion]

GL

how do you feel about dancing with the BEAKIEST

taly

?

this isnt an official offer, just testing the water

I'd definitely enjoy the experience of sharing a PT with you! I'd be open to it. especially if people think they'd be paranoid of me in LIMLO I don't mind setting myself up to try to eat a bullet.

I'd want other people to weigh in on if they are strongly for/against it though

[GuiltyLion]

Oh, and GuiltyLion, I'm a bit concerned by how much your readslist seems to be based off of preflips w/r/t Cabd and myself.

I think preflips can be Good Actually

like I'd obviously re-evaluate on catboi (and the rest of my reads) if Cabd flipped town but until then I think the Cabd "very obviously town" catboi read is either WK or S-S and it always makes sense to lim Cabd first there and give catboi a benefit of the doubt

I'm not following why you think my read on you depends on any preflip? I don't have a ton of experience with you but I've liked virtually all of your reads/posts and I'm getting the similar vibes I got from you as Allen Iverson recently in Coalition

[GuiltyLion]

i *want* to say galron is townie, because surely scum doesn't come back to 15 pages and enters with *that*, but ehhh

if it were up to me I'd rather just ice Cabd out of the dance completely rather than pair him with the IC on the basis of it would be difficult for him as scum

any rocking out town!Cabd can do with Taly he can do in the main thread, right now

[GuiltyLion]

so if you're both town, what would the issue actually be. like what are you afraid of, incorrectly paranoia leaving or what?

Ugh. This feels weird.

why? elaborate what's weird about it

I found that "disaster" remark Quite Odd, and I still don't feel like I understand why she presumably thinks a Datisi/Ydrasse PT would be bad for town or unfun for her. to me it kinda vibed like a vaguely pocket-y/fake-paranoia comment, it doesn't seem in line with what someone authentically townreading or scumreading Datisi would say, but I'll grant that I don't really know Ydrasse well enough to say that for sure, could just be her personality, and that I'm also probably biased cause I think Datisi is fairly town

[GuiltyLion]

but i enjoyed his posts so far

"enjoy" is a really weird word here for me

no malice towards RH9 meant but I don't see anything in his ISO that brings me joy

[GuiltyLion]

yeah I knew someone would ask me why. I don't have the words for it yet. It's like it's almost irrelevant but not really, and then with this framing of your asking me why in a journalistic kind of way, like you ask me why does that feel weird, and then you go on to explain why you asked the question to begin with rather than let me answer and then give me the background. That's double weird.

I didn't think my explanation would change your initial feelings or prevent you from sharing them, if anything I thought it might help you clarify what you didn't like about it.

I definitely disagree that Ydrasse's remark was "almost irrelevant", to me that's the first thing she's said that's stood out and responding to a potential dance offer is probably the most awkward/difficult moment for scum in this phase, so any weirdness should be looked at intently

[GuiltyLion]

absolutely!

I'd wait to see if Taly or anyone else has Serious Objections before accepting but I feel pretty good about townreading you and it'd obviously be super fun

[GuiltyLion]

also forgive me for playing the "mutual townwin" card but a dance pairing would definitely be the coolest way to get it

[GuiltyLion]

and that's one pairing that isn't seeing intermission

which of them do you scumread?

[GuiltyLion]

Although, I am a little confused on why Guiltylion thinks Marci is scum/sus..?

hi! I actually would like your input here given you and marci are friends

I've played a few games with marci and the sense I've previously gotten from her as town is that she isn't afraid to be confrontational or a bit cheeky about things she disagrees with. like she's 100% playfully ribbed at me before when she's disagreed with my takes. Does that feel like an accurate assessment to you, is she generally kinda ~feisty~ as a person?

the main thing I find suspicious is I'm not getting any of that fire from her in this game, she's been more timid. posts like 129 or 231 are good examples, they feel a little too diplomatic and there's not really an attempt to tease FB or catboi which is something I've seen from her before as town. or like 396, it's kinda hard to explain well but I feel there's confidence missing that I would expect from her when she's getting shaded. What do you think?

I also think her saying she's "enjoyed" RH9's posts is a truly bizarre take. I doubt that RH9 is someone that left a significant impression on her or that his posts were particularly interesting/amusing/good. It doesn't at all ring like a Genuine Thought to me, I struggle to understand why town!marci would say that about RH9

[GuiltyLion]

I don't think I've played with her before, but her lack of posts is sus. she would prob be another scumread if she doesnt post something more substantial soon.

I've seen Mala be super inactive as town before, I don't think this is AI for her at all. I also don't like how this is phrased, the "I will scumread player [x] if they do/don't do [y]" comes from scum more often than town in my experience. Like you realize if Mala is scum then you're giving her a pass as soon as she "posts something substantial"? And also how does it benefit scum!Mala to miss the early game when Ladies need to build enough towncred to get proposed to?

[GuiltyLion]

We are going to win because Taly is the best but then I remembered that Mafia might try to get rid of you and then I was sad.

am I being too naive in thinking this just feels tremendously fake in an obvscummy way

RH9 do you have any completed scumgames anywhere you can link to?

[GuiltyLion]

I've thought about it more and I actually just straight up townread Andante now. not so much because of the math thing but I think her emotions are genuine and also claiming to scumread so many gents as a lady mafia doesn't really make any sense as a scum agenda to me

I think Datisi, Prism, and Fire are townie as well

catboi actually I think maybe looks better too given that Cabd read and I did like when he said he was townreading Firebringer

Ydrasse/STD/LLD I didn't get any town vibes from yet but nothing that made me raise my eyebrows either
Alyssa/RH9/Galron similar lack of town impression but slightly more negative vibe

(all of the above six I need to think about more and pay attention, wouldn't feel comfortable calling them either way)

marci/cabd bonafide scumreads

Like this is not a town post.

It's just not.

frankly I think you just do not have enough experience with me if you genuinely think town!GL doesn't write that post

eagerly awaiting an explanation when you return

[GuiltyLion]

I actually totally missed that catboi post until Marci pointed it out but it's so similar to my own Marci experience/read that it gives me lotsa good feelings about catboi

[GuiltyLion]

To be honest, if you really HAD mind melded with me on my dislike of the GL post, I'd feel a lot better about your alignment.

Also I'm thinking about this more and it rubs me the wrong way, like LLD is trying to bribe catboi with townpoints if he scumreads me

I guess if I'm being self aware that's something I definitely do as town sometimes (hand out towncred when people share my scumreads) but it's inherently a little manipulative when done so explicitly and I certainly don't like being the target of it

[GuiltyLion]

but he doesn't know our mutual history, the comment made perfect sense to me

Do you have any thoughts on whether Ydrasse is more likely to say it as town or scum? Or do you see it as strictly NAI? If it makes perfect sense to you for her to say that as town I'll take that into account

[GuiltyLion]

:/ I'm sorry if I made ya mad Marci. If I wasn't clear I didn't mean anything negative by what I said about you, I've enjoyed your personality every time we play together, I can take sarcasm no problem I get a kick out of zingers its always just a game to me. I hope you don't feel like I have a negative opinion of you as a person, I don't at all and didn't in any way mean to suggest that I did

[GuiltyLion]

Like @marci if youre town I

want

you to roast me if you think I do or say something dumb, it's helped me read you before lol

P-edit: that makes sense Datisi, thanks

[GuiltyLion]

I don't really know what more to say about your hangup on 312, it's not very interesting to me? I think my catboi ping was misguided and have said as much. I think I was just feeling defensive with how he jumped in for what I felt was a pretty shallow point against me ("you're just using a gotcha question"), but since then we had Cabd give a wild "very obviously town" read on Catboi, Catboi made some other posts and reads that I felt demonstrated a lot more thought behind his opinions than I had previously assumed/seen, and as a result I don't really have much to say on that original yuck vibe from him anymore, it ceased to exist. I kinda think the whole thing is blown out of proportion as I also think Andantes response to my original original post was also fine

Like if you have specific questions you need answered I can try but my attention is on people like cabd/marci/rh9/lld now

[GuiltyLion]

Wait, I get it, Datisi is it more about you being worried I'm scum trying to pocket you and giving you towncred when I shouldn't?

I'll sleep on it but I dunno if I really know how to help with feelings of skepticism that I'm seeing you as town when you're town. I could try to reassure you that I'm just good at feeling out your vibes but I suspect that might not actually help if I try to elaborate on it, it'd prob come across to you as even more pockety

I do wanna talk about your Lily scumread cause I don't think I share that feeling but I'm in bed and will have to do it tomorrow

[GuiltyLion]

Kay, so, some morning thoughts.

GL's response is atrocious. I was intentionally a little more aggressive than I needed to be, and the reply from GL's bad post came with "you can't know if I'm scum or not you haven't played with me!" Which is first off, a "caught for the wrong reasons" kind of response, but is also deflecting pressure in a very scummy way.

Then GL proceeds to post like 50 more times, including saying things like "trying to see a mind meld with Catboi is scummy because you're trying to hand out town points" (while then admitting they themselves do it too, but this one is different because *handwave* reaaaaasons)

Which is flailing, essentially. They're attempting to discredit me as a possible person who would push them before I even setup, using flimsy arguments and developing from "you can't read me" to "you're scum, but when I do it I'm not!"

In truth, I was only so-so confident on a GL scum read, and this was mostly a reaction test, which GL failed.

Catboi gets to pass though, since while that is not even REMOTELY what I was thinking wrt to the post, I'd have been far more concerned if Catboi had come closer to what I was thinking, which was essentially:

"GL's post contains approx. 200 words about reads he's "not confident in" and nothing about reads he calls town, and even LESS than nothing about reads he calls scum.

Additionally, GL's "scum" reads are within the zeitgeist of "people in danger". People have displayed concern over Marci and over Cabd, so getting on that wagon felt very easy, and without any level of words to split hairs about WHY GL felt that way, it felt to me like GL was just trying to skate on by.

GL's reads post, in essence, doesn't make a whole lot of sense from a town perspective (but has come from town before, hence the lack of confidence). So I feigned a little confidence, and got the reaction I thought might happen, which was flail and panic into even more nonsense.

GL is scum, go read GL's post, my answer and GL's resulting reactions, I'm hoping people will see what I see.

hahaha wow. Okay.

So first - you say you were intentionally aggressive because you Weren't Actually Sure that my post was Scummy and so you wanted reaction test, and my response was "if you think that I can't write that post as town, you don't know me well", and that means I "failed"? I was entirely correct, I am town, I wrote the post, you said town!me doesn't write that post, then you say "well ackshually I wasn't sure about it", how am I the one talking "nonsense" here?

Second, this is a lot of misreppy bullshit. I didn't post 50 times, I posted a set of 4 posts (of which only 1 was a response to you), then came back to the thread a lil later and posted another 7 posts (of which only 1 mentioned you). Like, why are you counting posts where I'm talking to Datisi directly in response to posts he made towards me while we were both online? Why are you counting posts I made towards marci?

let's review - "FLAILING", according to LLD:

frankly I think you just do not have enough experience with me if you genuinely think town!GL doesn't write that post

eagerly awaiting an explanation when you return

To be honest, if you really HAD mind melded with me on my dislike of the GL post, I'd feel a lot better about your alignment.

Also I'm thinking about this more and it rubs me the wrong way, like LLD is trying to bribe catboi with townpoints if he scumreads me

I guess if I'm being self aware that's something I definitely do as town sometimes (hand out towncred when people share my scumreads) but it's inherently a little manipulative when done so explicitly and I certainly don't like being the target of it

You also did a lot more than a simple discredit, you already proposed in 555 that I'm the lady that gets iced out, and started attempting to butter up catboi when he didn't initially bite. Don't downplay what you did. This wasn't a "hmm, I don't like that GL post" that prompted me to respond and suspect your intentions, this was a "town never writes that post" and a "GL should be iced today".

Finally, your actual issues with my post are pretty stupid too. The entire premise of your dislike is 1) I didn't substantiate/elaborate on my reads and 2) my scumreads feel too consensus-y. To which I'll point out that the point of the post was never to be a detailed readslist, Datisi specifically asked what my reads were in 316 and I wanted to give him a snapshot of my current view of the gamestate. The idea that I won't or can't substantiate my reads is, again, nonsense, I am always willing and able to do so and I have done so on many of those reads throughout my ISO. Which brings me to point 2, I have suspected marcistar all game since 92, I explained immediately that I agreed with Prism re:Cabd in 303 (bonus: there's an explanation in that post on me read! wow!), and I talked about why I was reading Andante, the most novel/important read, in the very post you dislike. Your accusations are thin and hollow and I think you know that, which is why you felt the need to add this bit of "well I kinda exaggerated last night, I wasn't actually sure, but NOW I'm sure" - we both know that my post is easily understandable as a post Town Might Make.

I think you're scared of me.

[GuiltyLion]

That is, ah, a pretty wild assumption.

why else say that I should be the one excluded and write up a giant wall of BS to justify it? either she's town and scared of me as scum and feels the need to make weird reaches to push her view, or she's scum and scared of me as town and already setting up to discredit me/get me out of the game.

[GuiltyLion]

also trying to break up a Datisi/GL powertown pairing, trying to buddy catboi, trying to sneak scum!Cabd into the dance by arguing to pair him with Taly... lotta scum agenda I'm seeing in LLD's GL push

[GuiltyLion]

also trying to break up a Datisi/GL powertown pairing, trying to buddy catboi, trying to sneak scum!Cabd into the dance by arguing to pair him with Taly... lotta scum agenda I'm seeing in LLD's GL push

I don't see you as town so the first point is not an actual point. It's your own bias.

Not buddying catboi, was explicitly testing for their alignment.

I also think Cabd is scummy but I'm less certain about it than I am with you. Additionally, my logic about how this pins down cabd while helping town if cabd is town has been explained.

You are putting a lot of self bias conjecture into this OMGUS of yours.

I explained why it was buddying catboi, you functionally said "hey I'll townread you if you agree with me on GL". how is that an alignment test? catboi is scum if he disagrees with you and sees me as Town?

second, it's only really "bias" if I'm town, no? Why do you think me "putting self bias conjecture" is something that indicates that I'm scum?

as for your third person question... I don't think I even know? It's just how I said it. why does it matter?

[GuiltyLion]

To be honest, if you really HAD mind melded with me on my dislike of the GL post, I'd feel a lot better about your alignment.

Since you're awake right now, this is your one special chance. There's not a lot of other people you can ask in a scum PT to try and read my mind.

Why do you think I disliked the GL post and/or why did you dislike it?

Answering in immediacy provides you some potential mindmeld stuffs.

Catboi gets to pass though, since while that is not even REMOTELY what I was thinking wrt to the post, I'd have been far more concerned if Catboi had come closer to what I was thinking, which was essentially:

not really understanding how this is an alignment test, what your intent was with it on how to read catboi, or what the "nuance" is here, no.

I'm going to ignore your leading question, I've said my piece, if you 'win' this and I go down today I'll go down calling for Cabd's head and yours immediately after in short order and I will make damn sure everyone else does not tolerate any nonsense about how "GL was just bad town" or whatever

your reasoning for putting Cabd in the dance is also Bad Actually but I have to do some work so I might touch on that later. and maybe your Andante push cause I don't like that one either

[GuiltyLion]

I have not had a problem with anything else she's posted, though.

can you give an earnest reply to the points I raised in 678? Namely:
- LLD saying her confidence was an exaggeration as a "test" yet then somehow not liking my reaction in stating that she had no reason to be so confident that it wasn't a town post,
- LLD saying my subsequent posts were "flailing",
- LLD's dislike of the post somehow only amounting to "GL didn't explain his consensus-y reads" - reads which I actually ~have~ explained in greater detail in other posts in my ISO, some before any consensus was formed!, instead ignoring those posts to zoom in on one particular hipfire snapshot reads post I gave in response to Datisi explicitly asking for one.

You really don't see any issues with any of that? I'm kinda tilted seeing LLD get towncred for these pushes

[GuiltyLion]

your reasoning for putting Cabd in the dance is also Bad Actually but I have to do some work so I might touch on that later. and maybe your Andante push cause I don't like that one either

interested in this when you have time (and some jamming about lily too)

on the Cabd thing since I have a moment

I was thinking about it more yesterday

The best case for town is obviously Taly being paired with a universally townread obvtown that no one has any real suspicions or paranoia about. This would essentially force the scum NK onto that pairing, endgaming with such a pair alive would otherwise be tremendously difficult (virtually impossible if there are no S-S pairs, I think)

The second best case for town would actually be Taly pairing with scum, right? If Taly isn't NK'd, it'd be a sizable red flag and we'd have a chance at taking them out via Taly leaving at any point in the second dance. But this isn't that great, it means scum get a free ticket into the dance and can use the NK elsewhere and hope townies suffer the WIFOM, further muddying the gamestate. They can also set themselves up to look good associatively in this scenario since they'd know for sure Taly-Partner is T-S.

However, I think the

worst

case for town is Taly pairing with town who is limbaity or suspected. Then scum could leverage the lack of NK WIFOM to force town to either bet the game on Taly's partner's alignment or to get a free kill when Taly leaves, and also it frees up their NK to use elsewhere if they're confident Taly's partner isn't someone town would bet the game on.

so what's the case for Cabd as Taly's partner? What do we get out of it?

At best, Cabd is town and decides to start powertowning/obvtowning and Taly/Cabd eat the scum kill. Cabd has given no indication yet that he's going to start actually doing this.
At worst, Cabd is town but we all get paranoid of him and do scum's work for them by encouraging Taly to leave before endgame.

If you think Cabd is scum, it's always better to just ice him out and not even argue for him to make it into the dance. The gains for town if Cabd is scumread but actually town are pretty marginal unless Cabd decides to actually powertown. That's where my head was at when posting 365. But the more I think about it the more I think arguing to put a slot like Cabd into the game with Taly is about the worst case for him. If Cabd is widely suspected town, he's better off going with another widely suspected slot, then we can sort each of them and still hold the power to lim them. The goal for Taly's partner should always be the most obvtown player to force scum's hand and make it suboptimal to NK anywhere else

I'd nominate Prism for that currently probably

[GuiltyLion]

GL your responses just seem like "scum caught for the wrong reason" maybe you're not but it feels that way

I don't like being pushed for bullshit as either alignment. "You didn't elaborate on your reads!!!!" being LLD's "gotcha" is captital-B Bullshit

[GuiltyLion]

gl, will read later, a but busy atm.

i do wanna say this for now - if we're gonna end up leaving gl behind, i want to be paired with whichever lady he is most sure is mafia.

wait I don't understand why this at all, so you can personally try to sort them?

if I'm leaving behind I want the scummiest gentleman paired with the scummiest lady (Cabd) and I want that pair limmed immediately so people can see whether I was right. and then if Cabd flips scum I want everyone to remember LLD pushing for me to go home instead and trying to advocate for Cabd to be Taly's partner, of all people

[GuiltyLion]

also I don't want the FB/Andante pair limmed for a long time (if at all) and I'll be elaborating more on that when I have time

[GuiltyLion]

GL your responses just seem like "scum caught for the wrong reason" maybe you're not but it feels that way

i disagree with this. i think the way LLD handled this and admitted was being aggressive was going to ellicit responses that are gonna go something like that i wouldn't say is actually conclusive to an alignment.

its kind of like bad police interrogations

I also want this post framed and hung very prominently on the halls of this dance party

[GuiltyLion]

Potentially exposed to the new variant at work.

Marking myself vla for a bit, apologies but I'm gonna be a psychosomatic nervous wreck even though I'm pretty sure the positive coworker was negative last week when we had overlap with in office time.

More tonight.

this is real shit though, take care of yourself, I hope you don't have it

[GuiltyLion]

Using exaggerated language isn't significantly AI either (I know psyche had some MD post that scum were slightly more likely to accuse people of flailing but this was eons ago in site meta and flailing isn't even that common in the lexicon anymore)

mmm I axiomatically disagree with this but probably not worth litigating

scum use embellishment to sell reads they know don't hold up to logical scrutiny. Exaggerating the number of posts I made, ESPECIALLY when 90% of those posts were sorting/talking elsewhere, is not a genuine thought for why I might be scum. It's entirely designed to try to tilt me and to try to make me look worse to others. She might do that as town, but it sure as hell isn't pro-town behavior.

and it masks the fact that LLD's case on me is absent any substantive point against me. Especially considering we're in, y'know, D1 with no information.

Does she think scum!GL is incapable of giving reasons for his "reads"? Does she think scum!GL is inherently "reactive" in a way town!GL is not? Does she think scum!GL is too scared to give reads that go against consensus? Which of my reads does she think town!GL wouldn't or couldn't have?

A lot of people identified that 327 is a post I could write as either alignment, including LLD herself! So what's the reason she's more confident about me being scum than any other player here then?

[GuiltyLion]

it does feel like all the townier people are in the Gentlemen pool

like I was trying to think of who I'd want Datisi to propose to if not me, and assuming Prism is paired with Taly or Prism/Datisi don't wanna pair for wildly different PT play styles, it's probably like... Ydrasse? or Alyssa? which is kinda lol

[GuiltyLion]

ok, so who should pair with Taly then? I'm not seeing any obvtown powertowns in the Lady pool. I mean I'd say I could actually be that role if y'all would let me but it'd be Extremely Not Good if LLD is Actually Serious about this deathtunnel on me

[GuiltyLion]

Would you like to dance with me Lady Lambdadelta?

ftr I fully support this as long as this pair never survives endgame

p-edit: yeah, is that not like... the best reason to pair?

[GuiltyLion]

@Datisi - I'm not trying to galaxy brain, I just want the best odds of T/T pairs that become unlimmabale

I think Taly/Ydra sounds best if not Taly/Prism also

Taly/Ydra
Datisi/Prism

If I'm being spicy I'd like StD/Mala I think STD is vaguely townie and Mala is a complete wildcard but they're not people you never lim


then you lim in whatever's left of Galron/RH9 and lily/Cabd and almost definitely hit some number of scum there

[GuiltyLion]

Cabd

do you actually want to pair with Cabd? why? I don't see any reason to think he's town an extremely good one (highly implausible catboi read) to think he's scum

[GuiltyLion]

give me some good reasons why prism is town

yes it sounds like I will need to sit down and Actually Effort and write up all my reasoning for why Fire/Andante/Prism are townies before I shuffle off this mortal coil so that y'all don't do anything stupid after I'm gone

I will do that at some point when I have the energy and patience to ISO and think deeply about what I'm posteing. The thrust of it would basically be that these people aren't disingenuous and aren't making reads that would benefit them as scum. I'm probably least sure of Fire cause he's real good at the game but I think pairing with Andante the way he did is super townie of him and I have felt mindmeldy with many of his takes so far

[GuiltyLion]

I want to relax and not stress myself this game

[GuiltyLion]

I'll consider Marci's offer, but I am admittedly interested in what others will do wrt offering me.

what a surprise

[GuiltyLion]

if marci is town LLD accepting a different offer is a literal scumclaim btw

[GuiltyLion]

we both know that's not going to happen

[GuiltyLion]

I mean if you're scum!LLD and town!marci proposes to you, do you want to accept that pairing? Marci is pretty high on the "likely to be limmed" list and LLD is scum I would think has good odds of going deep

I also don't really know what LLD's read on marci is. if town!LLD townreads marci, why not pair with marci? if town!LLD scumreads marci, why not pair with marci and volunteer to be limmed/leave? that's what I would do

also, I just don't feel like it's all that likely that both are town given the number of my other townreads and my sense of the gamestate at the moment. if they are then I'm definitely suckered somewhere, but again, don't see why town!LLD can't accept a marci proposal and it's not like she's expressed a strong interest in any other people that she particularly wants to pair with

[GuiltyLion]

I do think this points pretty strongly away from marci/LLD S-S, so that's useful info I guess

[GuiltyLion]

The truth is GL is opportunistically looking for anything they can push me on to rebut my push and discredit this.

the truth is I am happy to volunteer myself to leave the game and am doing everything I can to ensure a favorable gamestate beyond that. You're the one who needs to navigate/maneuver how you'll play into the dance phases. I'll let my flip speak for itself

[GuiltyLion]

actively incapable of accepting others can scumread their play via arrogance, and are death tunneled in OMGUS (if town).

lol, already starting with the "GL was just bad town" nonsense that I predicted

[GuiltyLion]

I'm going to ignore your leading question, I've said my piece, if you 'win' this and I go down today I'll go down calling for Cabd's head and yours immediately after in short order and I will make damn sure everyone else does not tolerate any nonsense about how "GL was just bad town" or whatever

the thing is, if you're town then it doesn't matter because Marci is likely scum in that world. so Marci/LLD pair leaving is win-win for me

[GuiltyLion]

@Dats, why? in my shoes right now I'd pair with marci and leave. I don't have an endgame condition other than all scum are eliminated, and if I'm not getting my first choice of an obvtown then that's a useful way to play, to ensure that my death means that a scumread also goes down

[GuiltyLion]

You are willing to, if allowed to pair, instantly leave?

If so we can weaponize you to pair with a gent we want dead possibly... Which is preferable to just leaving you in the cold

why is that more preferable to you than me leaving straight away? you can always still just vote the Gent you want to leave after I'm flipped

I'd do it if I'm paired with marci or RH9 and Cabd is left out in my place. cause an axiom of my whole gamestate view right now is that you don't want Cabd left out. if Cabd flips town I'll prob need to reassess, but I don't think it would change my feeling on killing marci or RH9

[GuiltyLion]

i don’t really get why gl says he’ll leave and flip town and pair with scumreads as scum

like beyond wifom or getting his bluff called he just gets voted out which is an extra lim i guess but... it feels shortsighted esp to want to pair with someone people find scummy and kill them instead of going for someone townier

low returns

it's how I caught you as scum in that Discord game when Bingle did the same thing to me, because I picked up that you knew I was flipping town. If town had listened to me after I was gone we coulda won that game. Using my death as leverage to suss out who feels uncomfortable with how they'll look after I flip is useful for reads

[GuiltyLion]

I didn't see that coming. I'm going to fight marci for this. And I want LLD to endgame.

Wanna hit the dance floor LLD?

Take your time.

what in the fuck

[GuiltyLion]

I think if LLD is town who simply misfired on me, marci/galron are both playing like scum racing to see who can live off her coattails the longest lol

[GuiltyLion]

I dunno, I really functionally don't see pairing with a scumread and leaving / encouraging your own lim as substantially all that different than a vig shot on a night when you know you'll be NK'd. if you believe enough in the shot it makes sense

[GuiltyLion]

I think if LLD is town who simply misfired on me, marci/galron are both playing like scum racing to see who can live off her coattails the longest lol

uh, why? assuming you flip town, a lot of heat is gonna be on lld. why would scum WANT to be tied to her there?

you think Marci and Galron are less suspected/likely to be limmed than LLD?

[GuiltyLion]

do I need to pull receipts on all the players, including conftown Taly, who have said they townread LLD up to this point

[GuiltyLion]

I didn't see that coming. I'm going to fight marci for this. And I want LLD to endgame.

Wanna hit the dance floor LLD?

Take your time.

I really need to digest this move because it doesn't make any sense to me

you'd be willing to bet the game on LLD town, right now? why

[GuiltyLion]

marci what do you think of Galron here

let's see those "brain meats" as LLD says

[GuiltyLion]

i mean, no, but pairing with her just like guarantees they get yeeted immediately

yes but then they take down big scary town!LLD with them

instead of like, mislimmable town!STD

[GuiltyLion]

er sorry, STD's a gent. mislimmable lily then

[GuiltyLion]

eh well I have a meeting in 2 minutes so I'll let y'all sort this out while I'm gone

I'm kinda thinking maybe it's more likely LLD is town and at least one of marci/Galron is scum if not both

that Galron move is just wtf

[GuiltyLion]

My thing about this LLD vs GL thing is that even though I think both sides are probably town for it, I'm not comfortable with either being in a designated endgame pair either

this is partially why I really don't think it's so bad for me to pair with marci and leave/get limmed

like if marci flips scum that's probably clearing for LLD? but then Galron comes in and yolo proposes to LLD right when it seemed like forcing marci/GL might be viable

[GuiltyLion]

Idk how to take this mad scramble for LLD

Honestly that alone is making me think she's probably town

my sense too

[GuiltyLion]

huh
i want lld more : (

does everyone want me to pair with guiltylions- he seems like he wants it

I don't like this post because it tells me nothing about what marci's read on me is

[GuiltyLion]

if we do a Marci/GL pair and lim plan, I would not want Galron with LLD, I'd probably want StD-LLD and Galron-Mala

[GuiltyLion]

or RH9-Mala? idk there's other options, main thing I'm optimizing for is I'd just not want LLD/Galron

[GuiltyLion]

yeah actually if marci flips scum then Taly/LLD is strong

I don't think I'm opposed to that really

it makes me feel like you aren't trying to be endgaming scum too which helps with paranoia

[GuiltyLion]

well I was just skimming along but I don't have time to post other than I want to acknowledge that I see the marci proposal and am not gonna accept/deny it yet

gamestate feels very muddy to me right now and I want to like, step back, sort my shit, do some rereading and thinking and effortposting

I don't want to like encourage speculating on replaceouts buuut I super heavily townread Fire's posting in response lmao

I kinda wish I had a chance to dance with you Firebringer

[GuiltyLion]

@Taly I am

I was kinda trying to play the game today around being The Unpaired Lady given LLD was death tunneling me and I thought she was decent odds of scum shitpushing me

then marci/Galron both proposed to her and further shook up the dynamic of the game

I haven't had time or space to shake out how I feel about marci then proposing to me as well and how to fairly navigate this replace situation (not even from speculating about the circumstances or anything, but rather it's probably beneficial to try to mine as much content as possible from S_S/Titus in their shoes instead and that might require me to change my approach here)

[GuiltyLion]

I really think Cabd was scum though. I can't fathom why a town!Cabd would feel confident enough in catboi to post 274 at the time that he did, it still vibes to me as the most Fake Read in the game

I kinda chained a lot of my reads based off that because it stood out to me so strongly and Prism agreed so immediately and vehemently

[GuiltyLion]

I really think Cabd was scum though. I can't fathom why a town!Cabd would feel confident enough in catboi to post 274 at the time that he did, it still vibes to me as the most Fake Read in the game

I kinda chained a lot of my reads based off that because it stood out to me so strongly and Prism agreed so immediately and vehemently

Why did you feel so confident in that one read?

because I can't convince myself that someone as experienced as Cabd would ever have someone as experienced as catboi as "very obviously town" based on what catboi had posted by 274

most times when I don't understand or disagree with someone's read, I can at least empathize with the thought process there to some degree or another. even if it's less likely or whatever, there's a narrative in my head where it would make sense coming from town

but every now and then I see a read that just fires all the alarms of "how on earth could that possibly be your read" and that's what Cabd's was to me. I probably felt more confident because Prism called out the same thing in real time faster than I could. there's not even a shred of honest town doubt or uncertainty in 274, it's fake

[GuiltyLion]

no I'm not ~certain~ but I struggle to see why town!Cabd would

pretend

to townread catboi for the explicit purpose of trying to get in a dance with him

like yeah I might be wrong, I'm not claiming I'd want to bet the game on this singular read or anything, but 44 pages in there's still not a lady I want limmed more than Cabd's slot

[GuiltyLion]

what BOP? I don't follow how you're using that term here

My baseline is that I would expect town, especially one who has played and modded forum mafia for years, to have more skepticism about a slot like Catboi. It was very early into the game, Catboi hadn't done anything notably profound or impactful - Catboi himself even said he didn't think he was outside scum range in 299. I'm not saying nobody should have ever townread Catboi at that point in the game, but when you throw in a qualifier like "very obviously" town it makes me extremely concerned, because nothing about Catboi's alignment should have been "very obvious" and I can't imagine town genuinely believing that. I just can't.

So either town!Cabd was exaggerating his catboi townread for ?? reasons - I theory I considered but found less likely because Cabd got so immediately defensive when called out by Prism afterwards - or scum!Cabd thought he could use an early vocal townread to buddy catboi and get in a hood with him. The latter explanation just feels significantly more likely to me. I throw out any explanation where town!Cabd genuinely believed Catboi was, again, "very obviously" town, I fundamentally cannot grok that being a Real Thought.

[GuiltyLion]

when the same logic applies for why an experienced scum cabd would so blatantly go out of his way to say that against a player without having a very good reason to risk that type of blowout response

hopefully obvious reasons.

I'm all furry ears.

Let me work this through:

as a self-described "poison apple" in neighborhoods I've watched you run games from behind the scenes as scum despite low output in the game thread, including a game in this very format where you endgamed because you had the wool pulled over your dance partner's eyes.

In the recent anonymous dance format games, I found there was a tendency for scum to buddy up to highly visible town early. My own preference was to hold back until I found a partner I felt decent about.

Obviously if I were dancing with you I'd be on guard. But no one ever heads into these games expected to get fooled. And I think the gap between skepticism and overconfidence isn't actually that big - believing you won't be conned just makes you more vulnerable to being conned. And I know that ultimately I'm actually pretty easy to manipulate. I'd also expect you'd relish the opportunity to try to put one over on me.

So consider me apprehensive.

(I do hope the meta/personal history talk isn't too impenetrable to those unfamiliar with it, I hate when that sort of discussion dominates games because it inevitably ends up shutting certain people out. I've tried my best to make it legible to others).

seems to me like there's a super easy/compelling explanation as to why Cabd would play that way as scum?

[GuiltyLion]

also I did want to say, marci I'm going to reset and make sure I'm reading your posts in good faith and not just blanket ignoring/discrediting you, I get how that would be frustrating and despite a lack of ~pizazz~ in your early game, I don't think anything you've done has been especially disingenuous or unfair

I'm not sure we should be dance partners, I don't want to just accept and then stay tunneled on you and leave, that seems like it'd be a bad experience for you if you're town and it was unfair of me to try to use your slot as leverage to bully LLD into things I think would be suboptimal for her if she's scum

[GuiltyLion]

Like this is not a town post.

It's just not.

If I had a nickel for every time I've seen someone say that about a town-GL post, I'd have... I don't know, at least 50 cents probably.

lmfao I'd have a lot more

[GuiltyLion]

oh yeah, i am currently stuck between thinking gl is town because some solvey stuff he's put out isn't *too* bad, thinking s_s is town because [redacted], and thinking there's no way those two slots are t/t

what to do what to do what to do

I'm very casually skimming along on quick breaks at work, I think I should have time to give this game real attention tonight, but this is still very easy, is it not? either ice S_S and pair with me and when he flips scum we can power town (and likely lim Titus immediately after), or you ice me which I will accept

PROVIDED

S_S is instantly the first lim after everyone can see that GuiltyLion Did Nothing wrong, Cabd was obvious scum, and LLD was scum trying to save him and discredit me.

it's kinda obvious FMPOV that Titus came into this game with a premeditated intent to continue where LLD left off discrediting/pushing me out, like the way she's spinning every post of mine in her catchup is clearly agenda driven is it not? Baffled I saw some people throwing townreads there

I don't think a lot of my reads are gonna change unless I see S_S and/or Titus flip. Again, happy to be the lady left behind if it means pairs are constructed and agreed upon such that there's 0% chance of either S_S or Titus endgaming.

I will do the promised lily jam, andante/prism townread deep dives, today after work, For Real Scout's Honor. and I'm fine with the pairings that have occurred so far

[GuiltyLion]

I like/agree with Prism on Cabd

I could have possibly bought the "very obviously town" phrasing as intentionally spicy to provoke discussion, but Cabd getting defensive about it and doubling down afterwards points away from that idea. Feels most likely to be Cabd buddying catboi to me

GL scumread worse. All attack, no teamwork.

I've thought about it more and I actually just straight up townread Andante now. not so much because of the math thing but I think her emotions are genuine and also claiming to scumread so many gents as a lady mafia doesn't really make any sense as a scum agenda to me

I think Datisi, Prism, and Fire are townie as well

catboi actually I think maybe looks better too given that Cabd read and I did like when he said he was townreading Firebringer

Ydrasse/STD/LLD I didn't get any town vibes from yet but nothing that made me raise my eyebrows either
Alyssa/RH9/Galron similar lack of town impression but slightly more negative vibe

(all of the above six I need to think about more and pay attention, wouldn't feel comfortable calling them either way)

marci/cabd bonafide scumreads

Interesting turnaround. Not sure what to think here. Reads wall is out of the blue. He turns and townreads his detractors (Datisi and Adante). What's particularly telling is that Datisi had just finished a 180 there.

If I was to break this by category...

Datisi/Adante + Yrdasse + RH9 + marci

like, this being a super easy example. I'm trying to teamwork with Prism in the

literal

post Titus is responding to, and then the reads wall is directly in response to Datisi asking me for one. Not surprising you completely miss that context though if you're not evaluating me honestly and just want to try to throw dirt ("posting your reads when asked is Scummy, Actually!")

I can do this with every single Titus post about me but not gonna spam the thread

[GuiltyLion]

Your scumread on Cabd is just based on the catboi read?

yep and I've already covered this exhaustively in a back and forth with Alyssa

[GuiltyLion]

can i count on you to exit your scumrange in the analysis you will dish out?

I would say I've already exited my scumrange so like, maybe? I don't really feel I understand what kinds of things you look for in my town game vs my scum game. Most of what you've said this game has been around whether you agree with me or not

[GuiltyLion]

or RH9-Mala? idk there's other options, main thing I'm optimizing for is I'd just not want LLD/Galron

Did it ever get answered why GL had such a coniptition about LLD + Galron?

Leaving this by itself bc important

it should be pretty obvious in context? LLD was on the defensive after I had suggested it was scummy for her not to accept marci's proposal, and that I'd be willing to be left behind or vig marci if it meant Cabd slot was flipped. Out of nowhere, Galron proposed to LLD and claimed he wanted her to endgame. Does that not seem bizarre to you?

[GuiltyLion]

anyway, I'm here and about to do all the aforementioned jamming

[GuiltyLion]

On why I don't believe my play fits a pattern of "pocketing Datisi"

- I have a few thoughts here. The first is that the last time I was scum against Datisi, I fear killed him on N1 because I was terrified of him catching me and I didn't want to have to keep playing the entire game around pocketing Datisi. This was only a few months ago in White Flag 834, my most recent scum game.

(I also invite anyone/everyone else to look at it and see if they feel any differences for themselves between my play there and my play here, not just in terms of how I treat Datisi but also my play in general.)

If I were scum the

last

thing I would want is any chance of needing to pocket Datisi through endgame, as evidenced by what I did in that prior game. I'm not a good pocketer. I don't even fancy myself a good scum player. I hate being endgame scum and normally what I aim to do is bully my way to surviving a few days through the easy MLs while making my teammates look as dis-associated as possible, and then sac myself so that they can try to endgame. Part of the reason this strategy is usually necessary is also because I tend to get killed early when I'm town in most games and so me being alive in LIMLO is rather damning most of the time - I recognize that doesn't apply in this setup as much given the lack of traditional NK, but dancing with Datisi and then needing to spend the whole game making sure Datisi doesn't paranoia leave doesn't strike me as something I'd want to do or something I'd be good at.

Further - if my agenda

was

to pocket Datisi, I don't think I've taken any initiative to really... do that? Like yes, I did townread Datisi early, but I've taken a very clear backseat in terms of letting Datisi propose/dance with whoever he wants to dance with. I didn't lie when he asked if I would be up for dancing with him, but I don't think there's a single post in my ISO that is a) pocket-y in nature and b) NOT a response to Datisi talking to me directly. Most of my interactions with Datisi have been replying to what he's said and not me going out of my way to flatter him or make him feel good about his reads or any of that other stuff that usually comes with buddying/pocketing. I've been instead pressuring/reacting to slots I'm suspicious of, rather than angling to get myself specifically townread. If my agenda was to pocket Datisi and get a dance with him, I think you'd be hard pressed to say that's what I've spent most of my time doing.

Finally, as for my actual townread on Datisi and where it came from, there's a few things that strike me as unlikely to come from scum. The first was 35, I know Datisi

said

that if they were scum they'd want to win in the most vengeful way possible, pocketing me and taking me to endgame and crushing my hopes and dreams of a Datisi/GL dance townwin, but I honestly dunno if I believe him. I caught Datisi almost instantly last time I played with him as scum and I think if he were scum and he knew I was town there'd be at least some detectable degree of Fear. The mindset behind 35 wasn't at all to create excuses to avoid dancing with me, instead Datisi is actually making it harder for himself to not dance with me by saying he thinks he could correctly sort me. I don't think scum would discard a potentially useful reason to get out of dancing with me (I can't read him and he shouldn't endgame), scum!Datisi instead would be worried that

I

might catch

him

. I don't sense any self-consciousness here.

The second is kind of a holistic like of his reasons for suspicion or scumreads. I haven't once looked at a Datisi post and disliked their reasoning for feeling shallow or disingenuous, even when he's been suspicious of me. I don't agree at all that "[a] I scumread so many gentlemen that

I could see all 4 gentleman being maf" is a reasonable or good thought process, but I

can

understand that Datisi would think that the [a] context means

makes sense and hence disliked me asking Andante to explain if they really believed

. I think Datisi's point against lily ignoring/handwaving marci's reads point, especially given their shared history and lily's claimed lack of foothold in the game, is well reasoned. I think Datisi also pushing why I reacted differently to him and catboi, that also makes sense as a genuine paranoia concern. I feel like I'm Stating The Obvious writing all this out but basically all of Datisi's thought process clicks for me and I don't think he's done any twisting/manipulating when presenting suspicion or scumreads, which is like chiefly what I'm looking for for a comfortable scumread. And to touch again on why I didn't originally like catboi, it was because I didn't see any real reasoning for why he didn't like my post other than he claimed it was a "gotcha" -> which I thought was a Shallow Reason because I hadn't even attempted to actually gotcha Andante, my 180 wasn't meant to be an accusation or a scumread. Again, that obviously doesn't apply to catboi anymore, but it exemplifies what I'm trying to point to when I talk about like, non-shallow or understandable reasons for scumreading somebody, even when that somebody is myself.

Anyway, I hope this ramble was somewhat useful Dats, it's not the kinda post I would normally write cause it's a bit self-meta-y and I feel like if I were you this wouldn't really help with any pocket paranoia, but you've requested it so here it is. Now onto the actual good shit, which is Lily, and then maybe Andante. and then if I have time after that I want to actually address what Titus is doing cause it looks like a mess of premeditated agenda posting to me

[GuiltyLion]

why I initially didn't vibe with early lily suspicion

-

Right, so let's tackle this one. Datisi, seems the main thrust of your point is that you think a town!Lily should have been more interested/engaged with marci's content, rather than just like "oh yeah makes sense to me!" in 481

I can definitely imagine that being a scum response, so I don't think you're capital-W Wrong, but I can also imagine it coming from town, so it overall just doesn't weigh super heavily to me. Lily had already just spent (presumably) ~90 minutes between 429 and 469 reading the game and posting her reads, and then responded to marci's post another half hour later (with a few other posts/thoughts in between) and then dipping out of the thread not long after that. Given that context, I can imagine her as town being tired and/or lazy having already expended about 2 hours worth of mental energy on the game, reading marci's post, being like "yeah I guess this makes sense" and not bothering to add much more on top of it. It is inspiring pro town play? No, but I don't think I can say with a ton of confidence that town wouldn't do that there.

My other main thought was that I think

if marci is scum

, it feels unlikely lily is scum with her based on her posts. Her readslist is super marci-centric at a time marci was getting scumread, she basically asks half of the players in the game why they're suspicious/scumreading marci. Even if lily isn't a forum mafia vet, I can't see even a newbie scum tying themselves to a suspected buddy so blatantly like this with their first posts of the game. She also said she wanted to dance with marci and would leave if she ever felt marci is scum - I have to think if they're scum together this is like the worst possible S-S pair to arrange, regardless of who the four is, especially since again marci was already widely suspected.

She did offer to take any other proposal, which is a little ??, I don't think I like that in the context of everything else being about wanting to dance with marci, it's probably the main thing giving me pause.

and I can definitely imagine this being a scum!lily buddying/sucking up to a town!marci, so especially reading this with a bit more attention and thought I'm a bit more skeptical than I was initially. I wouldn't say lily is really a townread for me at all, and if marci was cleared as town I'd revisit this with more scrutiny, but I don't like hard scumread her in the way I do Cabd or a lot of LLD/Titus' posts

[GuiltyLion]

or RH9-Mala? idk there's other options, main thing I'm optimizing for is I'd just not want LLD/Galron

Did it ever get answered why GL had such a coniptition about LLD + Galron?

Leaving this by itself bc important

it should be pretty obvious in context? LLD was on the defensive after I had suggested it was scummy for her not to accept marci's proposal, and that I'd be willing to be left behind or vig marci if it meant Cabd slot was flipped. Out of nowhere, Galron proposed to LLD and claimed he wanted her to endgame. Does that not seem bizarre to you?

Dunno why it's so bizarre or why it got the reaction it did.

dude, you can't be serious. you yolo proposed with no lead-up to it at all, like you'd barely mentioned LLD, and then said you'd bet the game on her being town. That's bizarre. There's no progression and no reasoning at all why you're so confident an extremely skilled player like her is worth betting the game on as town, before you even have any flips.

[GuiltyLion]

Okay GL try to get ur point across in one or two paragraphs pls

sorry I am definitely being rambly but I'm trying to be Thorough

I'll keep it more brief in my Andante post

[GuiltyLion]

Why Andante is town

-

I still think my early reason for townreading Andante is really good. Andante comes in scumreading multiple gentlemen, my question for Andante scum readers is

why would scum be scumreading players they need to propose to them?

. scum Ladies are going to be sucking up to town!Gents and trying to pocket them, especially to try to live as long as possible. Opening the game by claiming to SR Fire and Dragons when they'd barely done anything just doesn't feel like something Andante benefits from as scum unless she's exactly scum with one of those players

I think the emotion in 208 is more likely to be genuine. I don't think scum would be that reactive to early suspicion and I don't think they'd go so low as claiming to be in tears when the game literally just started. Like if you're scum and you're playing that card 200 posts into the game it's just embarrassing, right? Maybe I'm just a sucker for AtE but the execution of that one feels pure to me.

Also, 491 feels real honest to me too and naturally fits with what Andante already did herself in the game? I'm always looking out for if people's mindset matches their actions and this is something I don't think scum needs to post or thinks to post. 621 just another transparent self-aware post in the same vein, I literally cannot remember a single time I've seen scum openly say they were forcing their own reads.

I also think if I'm wrong on Andante she won't be able to keep up this freestyling play style and I trust if FB is town he'd catch her in the PT. And I got a pretty decent townread on Fire as well, so I just see this as a pretty self-resolving pair of two slots that managed to pair first without it feeling premeditated or agenda-driven at all.

I'd maybe dip into the paranoia well about a Fire/Andante S-S pairing if like, all of S_S/Titus/marci were town and it was obvious something was deeply wrong, but I think limming these two first over many of the more skeevy and manipulative slots would be a huge error, and the odds of both of them being scum are very low in a vacuum already

[GuiltyLion]

Galron, if you think Andante/GL is S-S, do you think Andante's play is good or logical play if I'm going to flip scum at some point in the game

[GuiltyLion]

ok I'm gonna try to like read up now and maybe give another general reads post

[GuiltyLion]

oh wait I needed to talk about Prism too

blah

ok lemme iso Prism again. I'll be honest and say the main thing that I townread so hard was how aggressively she called out Cabd, it felt genuine and mindmeldy. The thing I worry about is when I challenge myself why Prism/Cabd couldn't be distancing with Prism wanting to endgame, I don't see anything that rules out the possibility, which kinda calls into question the whole foundation for the read. I don't know if I actually want to write a town!Prism case due to that, the replace out did honestly sink my read there a bit. I might look at what Norway's done since then and give a general overview of my thoughts on the ISO, another post incoming

[GuiltyLion]

Galron r u saying andante is pocketing/white knighting GL here. Cause that’s what it looks like

possible partner

meh ok I don't think I have it in me to do some more deep thinking right this second and honestly as I'm reading through Prism's ISO taken together I really don't see anything that makes me especially certain it can't be scum. I don't know if I can actually write a good town case for her when I try to get down to the meat and bones of it

Datisi would you hate it if I said I actually think maybe I was just wrong and Prism could totally be scum

I do want to catchup on a lot of the stuff that happened since last night and give more hipfire / less polished thoughts, so I

am

gonna do that now

[GuiltyLion]

whoops, quote unrelated

[GuiltyLion]

I would endorse GuiltyLion accepting marci's proposal at this point in time, but I also wouldn't mind her pairing with her friend anymore either.

this is interesting

I've been reluctant to accept because I think if marci's town it's a Bad Pairing and would be easy for scum to push the miselim via one player or the other, unless perhaps

both

Titus and S_S flip red. I kinda think marci-lily would be better - if there's at least one scum in the two they have no chance at endgaming and a T-T flip would suck but wouldn't be devastating since odds are high they'd have been candidates for lim in a different pair as well. and if nothing else it'd be fun for the two of them

I think maybe marci/GL could work on the condition if we left lily out - a lily redflip would be a lot of townpoints for marci (almost clearing in my mind - I do agree with you that I think marci's later posts have been better - not sure if I've thought about them enough to comfortably townread yet) and maybe if S_S and/or Titus flips red as well I'd be established as far more likely town by that point.

Titus' singular minded push on me is sinking the odds that LLD was just wrongTown, which I think is making marci feel better in my eyes too

[GuiltyLion]

Taly
GuiltyLion, Datisi
RH9
Alyssa the Lamb, Firebringer, Catboi
NorwegianboyEE
Galron, Andante
Malakittens, Save the Dragons, Marcistar
(Something_Smart, Titus) Angielily,

this and 1205 are super good posts I think. These reads are pretty close to mine (at least a mutual town core of Datisi, Firebringer, Alyssa [who I've liked a lot of recent posts from], Catboi) feels pretty good. I'm less sure at the moment about RH9/nEE and more sure about Andante.

Ydra's thoughts on lily are making me reevaluate. the more I sit with it the more I think if marci is town then those lily posts are worse than I had thought. I still don't think it's S/S energy but I do think lily seems like she both wants to buddy marci but also doesn't want to actually be tied to her.

I'm kinda hoping to see some marci thoughts on that, either in the pages I'm in the process of reading or in the near future.

[GuiltyLion]

If you had your pick of the remaining gentlemen who would you want?

Datisi. I'd also like catboi and I'd settle for marcistar but I'm worried a marcistar/GL T-T pairing isn't actually beneficial to town unless we manage to effectively clear ourselves. I think after I said I was willing to leave to flip marci it's not good for the long term gamestate if we pair and I don't stay at least willing to do that

[GuiltyLion]

This really feels solid for GL Ydrasse Rh9 marci team.

oh also for completeness sake because I cannot resist calling this out, this claim is a million times worse than Andante's "4 maf in the gentleman" because now you're even naming a specific 4 person team

don't really feel it'd be especially useful to push this particular point but I can't fathom Titus

earnestly

believes the scum team is exactly these four players

[GuiltyLion]

Norwe/Datisi being an endgame pair?

I don't know if this is actually a good bet to endgame but I'm certain it'd be hilarious from the dead thread

[GuiltyLion]

didn't Dragon already pair with Titus? That's a duo that's absolutely not endgaming, btw

[GuiltyLion]

now that i think about it, i'm a bit nervous about norwee declining to pair with the ic

the town norwee i know is reckless and he lives on the edge

scum!norwee knows that pairing with the ic is Bad

I did not like 1147 because it felt a little telling-instead-of-showing fake to me. like why wasn't Norwee thinking about this when Taly asked him initially? the fact that it came 20 minutes later is a bit 'sus', as they say

[GuiltyLion]

There are definitely people here who are capable of confidently placing me as town.

who? why didn't you name them up front?

[GuiltyLion]

I don't want to relitigate that but seeing your ISO I don't see much mention of the fact that it's equally bizarre for scum-Cabd to do. Like you really think he lacks game sense to the point where he would make up a read like that and assume it wouldn't look weird.

I would feel this way even if I didn't know the slot was green-- I feel like the only possible answers are that either he really did think catboi was uber towny for some reason, or he was doing some kind of reaction test that got interrupted by his replacement. Neither of these are heavily alignment indicative.

Just my $0.02.

I appreciate that you need to write this post regardless of your alignment and it's a solid effort but it doesn't move the needle for me. I disagree that it's equally bizarre for scum-Cabd to do that, if he had the intent to "groom" catboi as a potential dance partner (pun intended) then it easily would make sense for him to write that post. The backlash was strong and immediate but I don't think we can say scum!Cabd would have necessarily anticipated the backlash ahead of time.

The only town explanation I'd entertain would be the reaction test angle, but the way he was defensive on being called out on it (280/285 - I think if he were town reaction testing he'd be confident in explaining himself later) and then mysteriously alluded to "one or two things" (296) that contributed to this read - without actually naming what those things are - makes me less inclined to believe it was specifically a reaction test.

[GuiltyLion]

This in particular is a huge red flag to me because LLD is a player that is good at channeling confidence and pressure onto other slots and is a player I definitely wouldn't say is lying about being willing to leave the dance if she suspects she has a scum partner. I have particular thoughts I will get into a bit later about her scuffle with GuiltyLion, but what I strongly suspect is happening is that the scumteam are attempting to take advantage of this likely incorrect read to either pocket her and use her as an avenue to get their own agenda across (effectively poisoning her contribution to the game) or even to just get her to remove herself entirely from the game.

I vibe with a lot of this post, I kinda want to zoom in on this part in particular.

I did wonder at the time if LLD was wrongTown and one of, or both, of marci/galron were aiming for this well-poisoning effect. That's definitely a narrative I can imagine, and LLD then proposing to pair herself with Taly also felt like it might be a Town Move.

The thing I'm struggling with now is a couple of things:

1. If LLD town, Titus is really souring me on that slot. Every post she's made in her catchup pertaining to me has been uncharitable and explicitly meant to make me look as bad as possible. I know Titus can be obstinate, and maybe I'm naive but I fail to see what it is in my posts - especially early game pre:LLD scuffle - that would have her So Convinced that I'm scum. She should have enough experience with me to at least doubt her read I feel, but she's projecting utmost confidence. To me it feels more like Titus sees we're already anti-spewed and she's just hoping to muscle me out of the game so I can't do damage later. Why do you think Titus' play is town here?

2. I kinda feel like marci's recent posting has been better - vibe/tonewise it's been a lot closer to the town!marci I know, and I don't see a super compelling explanation for why scum!marci offered to pair with me ultimately, unless she just wants to get one of LLD/me out of the game and figures that's the most utility she can get out of her slot. if marci is town I'm not sure what to make of Galron's Yolo Propose if he's scum - I do think it looks bad on him but I don't see what he gains from it if LLD is also town, other than to maybe poison whatever other pair marci winds up in. and if marci is scum, is Galron ever scum with her as well? I'm not sure how I feel myself, kinda just want more thoughts from you on that.

I feel you've got some good theories about how scum are playing in the abstract sense but I don't know I follow how this bit in particular fits together with your conclusions on the alignments of marci, galron, LLD, does that make sense? could you maybe walk through which combination of scum!Galron, scum!marci, scum!LLD you see as best explanation for that whole scenario?

[GuiltyLion]

Seat of knowing and all that.
But i think Prism's posting up to 42 has been pretty transparently town.
What don't you like?

Norway I wanna ask you this

I actually like a lot of Prism's posting but the thing is when I reread it again and tried to reset myself, it's a lot of stuff I agree with but not a lot of stuff she could never post as scum

what do you think she posted that you would say is not possible or not likely to be a scum post?

[GuiltyLion]

or RH9-Mala? idk there's other options, main thing I'm optimizing for is I'd just not want LLD/Galron

Did it ever get answered why GL had such a coniptition about LLD + Galron?

Leaving this by itself bc important

it should be pretty obvious in context? LLD was on the defensive after I had suggested it was scummy for her not to accept marci's proposal, and that I'd be willing to be left behind or vig marci if it meant Cabd slot was flipped. Out of nowhere, Galron proposed to LLD and claimed he wanted her to endgame. Does that not seem bizarre to you?

Nope. LLD protects her townreads just as much as she nails scum. Ftr, I have never seen LLD be wrong when she was this confident.

my quote unquote conniption quote unquote was specifically about Galron proposing, not LLD or her townreads? I'm not following at all how this reply addresses my point that

Galron's

decision to yolo propose is bizarre.

[GuiltyLion]

that's very hard for me to do since I pretty much always look for the WHAT and then fit the WHO to it... and then verify the most crucial part of it and refine from there

the thing about this particular playstyle is that it's often far more valuable in generating correct townreads rather than correct scumreads, since this process often rules out specific players from potentially being scum entirely if you're at least in the ballpark of being correct, yet you often need the details to be correct in order to generate a solve that has enough correct scumreads to be able to win the game (or to generate enough correct townreads to be able to easily PoE it out)

I'm not at the stage where I can definitively tell you roughly who I expect to be scum in this exchange, all I can really tell you is that if I'm on the right track, the reads I mentioned in that thread are more likely to be correct than not

somehow this is both fair and unsatisfying

I think as long as you're on the same page of Titus not being an endgame tier townread then it's probably fine for now

[GuiltyLion]

I'll eat my hat if GL is town.

oh lol I hadn't even seen this

better start doing some research on which hats are safest to eat

[GuiltyLion]

Purple prose is overly embellished language that serves little meaningful purpose in a piece. It’s characterized by strings of multisyllabic words, run-on sentences, and blocks of unyielding text. Universally discouraged by all manner of writing experts, purple prose slows the pace, muddles the content, and can lose the reader entirely.

Titus, you of all people should know that I write multisyllabic words, run-on sentences, and unyielding blocks of text in every town game. Not even half a year ago I was in Situation Room writing some epic monster walls

I agree it's bad writing but mafia takes enough of my time as it is I'm not gonna sit here and do much serious editing of my posts unless it's like The Most Important Post In The Game

I'm actually somewhat confident that if someone did a detailed analysis of my word count / dense post frequency in town games vs scum games there'd be a decent correlation. I can't wall as effectively as scum (I'll do it occasionally but can't as consistently)

[GuiltyLion]

EBWOP - in Situation Room

WITH YOU**

[GuiltyLion]

wait ok this Titus pairing post deserves some Real Attention

I'd like Datisi with EE. Both have similar energies and would likely work well together.

If they really trust each other

, they could definitely do a good cop bad cop well.

If I'm to put my tinfoil/tunnel hat on, I feel like the reasoning for Datisi/Norway is entirely so scum!Titus can imply scum!Norway should be townread (see highlighted). What reasons do you have to think they'd work well together? I kinda see that PT imploding at least once lol, or at the very least Datisi tearing his hair out. as I said earlier though it

would

be hilarious

I'd put Catboi with SS. I feel this is a very solid pairing because I TRed Cabd early. I feel Catboi can be a bit forward while SS can be more reserved. They both are active and can play off each other.

Why did you TR Cabd? I don't see any mention of that in your ISO. And do you have any read on what S_S has posted?

RH9 I would put with Alyssa. These are both slots I waffle on and I hope their dichotomy would help me see which way to go.

This idea of RH9/Alyssa pairing somehow making both of them more readable feels fake to me

I'd put Galron with EE. Galron seemed to have a plan when wanting to propose to LLD given he retracted it right away. EE can do some planning and I hope that EE could find holes in his thinking. Galron might be off the box enough to catch EE if he is scum.

I think forgetting that you just paired EE also feels like the whole thing is more likely to be fake. like I think the cognitive load of scum having to lie about their reads on all the slots makes messing up and double pairing more likely than if you're town who's genuinely working through each slot thinking about who is remaining after you decide on a pair.

@

MARCI

, @

Norwee

- what do you two think about this point in particular? It's similar (though not quite exactly the same) to how I was on scum!Vanders forgetting who was in which grouping in the game we played together, so you've seen me nail scum on a similar point before. Is town!Titus likely to forget she wanted Norway and Datisi paired together?

[GuiltyLion]

I got nothing against you RH9! and actually I have enjoyed your one or two moments of sass. I don't really feel super comfortable about a read on you either way, you're vaguely townish by POE other people being scummier and I have felt better about you being consistently Present and getting more directly involved as the game goes on, but I haven't yet seen posts that stands out in a way that gives me unshakably good feelings about your alignment

I'd pair with ya if it makes sense with the rest of the gamestate (read: it results in S_S being flipped), and I don't think it'd be that bad cause if I'm terribly wrong on my scumreads then you and I would be necessary flips before endgame, but I'm not like chomping at the bit to do it, ya feel?

Especially if Datisi wants to dance with me after all, I wanna save the spot for him
(yes Datisi perhaps this post you could now reasonably interpret as a potential pocket)

[GuiltyLion]

I've been traveling today and will have time to play for real later. Juet landed in Phoenix. I wanna say just based on the last page that Catboi/SS is a terrible idea it just results in catboi leaving early. S_S should only be paired with another suspected slot or preferably iced out of the dance entirely

[GuiltyLion]

I'd love to accept Datisi's proposal both because I think it'd be good for the game and because I'd have the most fun that way, but it sounds like Taly is against it? I reserve the right to Yolo accept later but I'm OK in theory with Datisi/Alyssa pairing instead if it means I get my say on who gets iced or limmed first. I'll address posts/questions towards me later.

Taly please can you explain why you are townreading Cabd/SS. It's the scummiest slot in the game. S_S hasn't done anything to make me reconsider and at times has been scummy himself as well

[GuiltyLion]

I think it’s another popping up awful argument from the conveyour belt of bullshit that is forcefeeding me in this game. Just more circumstances i cannot control. I don’t know what Titus is doing because we’re not alligned. I just know she did something weird and probably must have a bit of an derpy memory. That’s all i can say. If you want to continue pushing this line that’s fine, but i will respect you less for it. And probably question your motives stronger than i have previously.

I feel like this is kinda melodramatic, you can just say you disagree without saying I'm force feeding you bullshit

Also, I don't really get the "respect you less" bit, because a) what if I were scum, and b) I literally caught Vanders off a similar derp in our last game together and no one listened to me. So I was kinda hoping you'd at least respect my idea even if you ultimately don't find it convincing. Am I correct then in thinking your position is that town and scum are equally likely to forget who they already said they wanted paired?

[GuiltyLion]

Seat of knowing and all that.
But i think Prism's posting up to 42 has been pretty transparently town.
What don't you like?

Norway I wanna ask you this

I actually like a lot of Prism's posting but the thing is when I reread it again and tried to reset myself, it's a lot of stuff I agree with but not a lot of stuff she could never post as scum

what do you think she posted that you would say is not possible or not likely to be a scum post?

47
89
135
136
145
214
269
451
790
829
912
998

Also I was kinda hoping for your actual thoughts here. I don't see why scum!Prism wouldn't be capable of writing many of these posts

[GuiltyLion]

1721 kinda feels townie to me :/

[GuiltyLion]

I'm frustrated at any push against

Ydrasse

right now and anyone insinuating that I had no agency in considering a pair with

LLD/Titus

,

Ydrasse

,

Prism

, and

Cabd

--- and this includes something

GL

suggested in one of his posts as

LLD

pushing a scum narrative by gatekeeping my pair, as though she had the power to do that.

I'm confused, I dont think I said anything about LLD gatekeeping your pair? Which post gave you that impression?

The closest I can recall is when I was talking about how LLD suggested she might want to pair with you, I saw that as potentially a townie move cause I don't think scum would benefit from offering to do that. But I certainly didn't mean to suggest in any way that you had no agency?

[GuiltyLion]

I think GL’s ignoring me is suspicious

What did I ignore? I kinda felt like you were trying to buddy me with your initial posts about me. But I don't remember anything I was explicitly supposed to respond to

[GuiltyLion]

Thanks

GuiltyLion

, why pair with

Datisi

if you think there's a decent chance of him leaving you?

Also

GL

, what are mislims that you think are easy in this game? IE, who do you think is in any PoE to be left out that you think is a misfire?

1. I'm not really worried about Datisi leaving me - I'm town and I'm confident I can exert the level of effort and energy in this game required to help Datisi see that. Honestly if this game goes terribly off the rails I'd be more worried about me getting Wrongly Paranoid about Datisi than I would Datisi leaving at a time that would lose the game

2. I'd say Andante, RH9, Mala would be my picks for slots that scum might push for an easier miselim

[GuiltyLion]

I did wonder at the time if LLD was wrongTown and one of, or both, of marci/galron were aiming for this well-poisoning effect. That's definitely a narrative I can imagine, and LLD then proposing to pair herself with Taly also felt like it might be a Town Move.

why didnt u bring up this point before? :< whyd u wait until someone else did?

I think if LLD is town who simply misfired on me, marci/galron are both playing like scum racing to see who can live off her coattails the longest lol

[GuiltyLion]

would you like to dance with me, guiltylion?

I accept

this is gonna be a lot of fun, and you have full promise of me tryharding!! I'm already close to eclipsing my post count this game than I had total in White Flag

[GuiltyLion]

Oh hey GL was in my last scum game

Nice

was that on an alt? I don't remember playing with you before

[GuiltyLion]

wait and you're also Ank?? lmao

sometimes I feel like I'm always playing with the same ~15-20 people just on a bunch of different accounts -.-

[GuiltyLion]

S_S what do you think about RH9's proposal

[GuiltyLion]

ngl this attack mode on mala right out of the gate and then pressure on her for not having reads when its clear mala hasn't been around looks alot like self preservation "i don't want to be left out of dance" look to me.

+1

[GuiltyLion]

Have no clue what GL/Andante/STD are doing.

you can always ask

[GuiltyLion]

The fact that she scumread Taly not knowing Taly is the IC is questioning that it just might be town

I interpreted her post as joking ftr

[GuiltyLion]

something_smart should be the flip, in all likelihood. As said, I think the way certain slots played around cabd is telling. If it is indeed scum, I would flip Titus immediately and then probably norwee too. Still think Fire/Andante is T/T. Good luck.

:/ I hope this doesn't mean you're leaving us

hey Fire, it's good playing slay the spire I just died to Donu and Deca on A20 Defect cause my deck was some meme trash

going to bed soon tho I think

[GuiltyLion]

I feel most of the people calling Andante scummy have been the generally scummier slots themselves

[GuiltyLion]

I feel most of the people calling Andante scummy have been the generally scummier slots themselves

u dont think her defense of u was a little weird? like it read something like i would do as scum defending u lol

yeah it was a little weird, def worth mentally noting, but I could imagine her doing it as town so I'm not super interested in it

I don't see why she'd do it as scum unless she's just looking for allies

I do agree Galron's Andante takes were bad I think Galron is low key pretty scummy especially if LLD/Titus is town

[GuiltyLion]

one thought did cross my mind that Galron might have been trying to plant a false associative between me/Andante and distance with her, but that's a tinfoil theory

[GuiltyLion]

plant a false associative between me/Andante

by this I mean, if Galron/Andante are teamed I could see his posting as trying to set me up if/when Andante redflips

but it requires assuming they're both scum to make sense so it's not a good idea to pursue until at least Galron flips red

and even then it's still possible he was just stirring shit

[GuiltyLion]

place your bets on dankest replacement

Not_Mafia would be fun

[GuiltyLion]

well if by tinfoiley u mean unlikely yes, if by tinfoiley u mean extremely unlikely no

yeah I feel this

I think I mostly mean I wouldn't explore this idea until I had a confirmed Galron scumflip already in hand

[GuiltyLion]

With the amount of shit I am getting for agreeing with LLD, scum has to be in there protecting GL. This further reinforces that I'm right. It's one thing to disagree. Shading me because I agree with a slot I know to be town is utter garbage.

Galron's recent posting tanks my read of him. He was suggesting that my and GLs flips solved the game, but replied with the fact he didn't like my catchup.

That has zero to do with my flip or GL's flip solving the game.

He doesn't show how the flips are related. His response about why he didn't like my catchup doesn't elaborate on how my and GL's flips solve the game.

If GL is town, turbo flip Galron.

This recent interaction suggested Galron wanted to pair with LLD to take out a strong and charismatic voice while I have the charisma of a gnat when prosecuting.

this is a good post

I am town and down to turbo flip Galron

Titus I do not think it is inherently scummy that you agree with your predecessor but I would say that if you are town I think you are letting LLD's push on me bias your own read on me and that was reflected in how you treated me on entering the game/catching up

[GuiltyLion]

If I paired with RH9, would anyone be gunning to kill us immediately?

*raises hand*

[GuiltyLion]

I mean I could see worlds where I'd down to kill Galron or Harley first but you're not making it much further beyond that

[GuiltyLion]

on the subject of guiltylion and norwee fight about titus forgetting she's already paired norwee, in posts 1703, 1713, 1887: i am kind of confused on why norwee is getting so defensive here? like, i reread the original point that guiltylion was bringing up, and it seemed to be "titus has forgotten she's already paired norwee, therefore titus is more likely to be scum". but norwee is responding to it as if the original post was "titus has forgotten she's already paired norwee, therefore titus and norwee are more likely to be scum". which doesn't feel at all like what he said there? however, the fact that he didn't correct norwee about it makes me feel like it might have actually been his intention to say that all along, which i find kind of confusing? like, i know earlier in the post he showed a connection between norwee and titus, but this point didn't seem to support scum!norwee, so uh. maybe i'm just dumb but this whole exchange is ???

my thoughts on this

I mostly felt like Titus derping on pairing Norwee twice was weird and scummy, I didn't think that inherently incriminated Norway

however I specifically requested Norwee's thoughts because:

a) he recently saw me as town railing on something similar
b) if he's town I thought maybe there'd be an opportunity to engage and get his thoughts on the weirdness
c) if he's scum, it puts him in a spot to have to give a tricky read on Titus regardless of her alignment

the way he got defensive about it points me more towards c) than b). so I think you picked up that I am kinda suspicious of how he reacted around the whole thing, but it's not cause I'm suspicious specifically because of that Titus post but rather he got defensive and melodramatic (conveyor belt of bullshit) about me asking him what he thought about it

[GuiltyLion]

I think Alyssa should accept RH9, then.

if you were left out, who would be the pair/slots you'd most want to flip

[GuiltyLion]

I think if I'm recalibrating around town!Titus my primary scumreads are Galron, S_S, Harley, Norway, and then if there's town in there depending on who it is I'd look closer at marci and andante, I think those two would be possible scum in my blindspots as I have reasons for townreading them but there have been instances of weird angles/agendas they've taken and I don't think they've efforted on a level that clears them

everyone else I can't see myself really scumreading unless we get a bunch of townflips in the above and my gamestate view was clearly way off. I liked mala's posts and again if I'm tinfoiling again I could see Galron proposing to Harley as a way to make sure she doesn't informatively redflip first before dance. mala greenflip would tell us virtually nothing I don't want her to be left out

if S_S is serious about wanting Alyssa/RH9 to pair that'd be obviously a townie attitude to take, but his current position in everyone's reads is so bad that I'm not sure it can't come from scum him just trying to act as town as possible as a last ditch effort

[GuiltyLion]

I don't have strong preferences for who gets flipped first. This setup is all about identifying endgame pairs. I think RH9/Alyssa is the best chance at a plausible endgame pair among the unpaired players.

like, I want your scumreads here, not your townreads

scum are okay with posting townreads cause it can generate WIFOM, scum posting scumreads either antispews townies or forces them to bus their buddies, and they can't skate by with faking like they can with faking accurate townreads

[GuiltyLion]

scum are okay with posting townreads cause it can generate WIFOM, scum posting scumreads either antispews townies or forces them to bus their buddies, and they can't skate by with faking like they can with faking accurate townreads

Huh? You're saying I couldn't just name random names as scum?

That's, uh, a take.

That's not really what I'm saying. I asked for your scumreads and you chose not to give any. Then I said generally it's easier for scum to name townreads than scumreads, even though I like and agree with the townreads you gave

[GuiltyLion]

Then I said generally it's easier for scum to name townreads than scumreads

It's literally just saying names either way...

I was also hoping you'd give reasoning but whatever

[GuiltyLion]

Me no feel like I've given GL the proper attention he deserves to sort him but I wish they were a bit more active in talking to me

sorry, I tend to just ignore slots I know/think are town unless it's part of wagon building / vote negotiating, and we haven't had that yet this game so I haven't had much I've wanted to discuss with you from my end

I'll try to pay more attention to you, I promise, and I feel I'll have more to discuss now that we're in a proper D1

did you have anything you want to start with? I'm still catching up and dumping a boatload of thoughts in my PT with Datisi so I haven't read anything beyond 2357, but I did want to respond to this while I was looking at it

[GuiltyLion]

yes and I will, but it will be in a lot more clear/articulated/summarized fashion rather than spammy hot takes Post by Post

[GuiltyLion]

Am I the only one that's like mayo on hot dogs?

what.

Seattle's speciality is cream cheese on hot dogs which is delicious tho

[GuiltyLion]

I have a PT for it now

Most of these opinions are not stuff that's worth sharing, if people reacted to all of it then it'd just make the game thread enormously bloated and more difficult to reread later

Whenever I play mafia I have a ton of things I think that I don't post and I try to keep my posts (mostly) condensed to stuff that might actually generate useful content. And being townread isn't my goal

I also think I can (and have) maintain a pretty clear window into my thoughts from the level of activity/posting I've been putting into the main thread already so far. It's not like I'm avoiding posting things here, and Datisi is always welcome to share stuff I've said in our PT if he thinks it's relevant or that I'm hiding/misleading this thread in some way

[GuiltyLion]

@S_S

SS r u going for a townread to pair with or what is ur idea of good pairing

I was thinking of it, yeah... there really isn't anyone that I care to bomb. I think it's entirely possible that I can turn the suspicion on my slot around, and being with someone I townread would be really good in that case.

Maybe it's better to put RH9 with Alyssa though? How are people reading Alyssa?

I guess I don't actually have to read Galron now, I just have to read Mala now. If I think she's got a decent chance to be town then it would be better to let her pair with Galron on the offchance that he becomes obvtown or spewed town or something.

In the first post here you say you think you can turn the general opinion on your slot around, but in the second post quoted you suggest it'd be better for Galron to pair with Mala if Galron becomes an obvtown slot - which sounds like you think you'd be more mislimmable than Mala.

What changed your mindset between these two posts in terms of your belief in your abilities to become townread?

[GuiltyLion]

GL what are your reads at currently?

I don't care about reasons, just what they are

as of here (haven't read up today), they're around here

I'd be utterly shocked if scum -> {Fire, Datisi}
Generally I townread but I don't feel secure enough to locktown -> {marci, STD, Titus, Alyssa, Shiro}
Mixed feelings, low confidence either way -> {Norwee, Andante}
Mild scumread but not as strong as tier below -> {RH9}
Would never let endgame, best odds for scum -> {HQ, Galron, S_S}

Ydra omitted intentionally

[GuiltyLion]

s_s, do you have any opinions on me or my pair

I have a shit history at reading both you and GL. I... honestly can't recall much about what you've done, and most of what GL has done that I can recall is tunnel my slot for dumb and facile reasons, which is probably +town to be honest.

Actually my GL meta is stale but the more I think about this the more it seems like an unlikely hill for him to die on as scum.

hmm I feel like I've often picked on you when I'm scum cause you're an easy slot for me to plausibly scumread & push. I definitely scumread you frequently as town before as well but what makes you think I'd be unlikely as scum to tunnel you in this way in this particular game?

[GuiltyLion]

Anyway this doesn't look S/S as a progression. I think Norwee is above-average likelihood to be scum for the single-target mentality.

I'm not going to respond to that HQ

[GuiltyLion]

whoops, was thinking about replying to Smart and got quote bugged.

But what I was gonna say is that I can see where Smart is coming from, I can definitely imagine a possible scum motive/agenda in the way Norwee switched who he was angling for once Datisi made it clear he scumread Norway

[GuiltyLion]

because I had previously drafted a post with a quote to Smart earlier and so mafiascum preserved the quote functionality when I quick replied later

have you never seen that before, it happens frequently. Pretty sure it already happened once earlier this game to Galron IIRC

[GuiltyLion]

I don't like that you go for a question instead of taking like two seconds to think about what might have happened

[GuiltyLion]

mentally compare that to when he cased me when I was scum in the large theme with bombs (can't remember the name). There, everything he had was backed up. He looked at reasons when suspected.

Which large theme are you referring to? Situation Room? If it's that one, this was on like D8 of the game when we had a shitton of hard info and associatives with flipped town/scum to go over. It's not accurate to compare that to my posting in the early stage of this game with no flips and no info. I don't remember any other Themes we've played together with "bombs", so correct me if you're speaking about a different game.

[GuiltyLion]

Everybody, rank each pair (except mine - calling IC privilege) on how likely you believe scum resides in them.

{Datisi}
{Titus, STD}
{Fire, Andante}
{Marci, Norwee}
{Alyssa, RH9}
{Shiro, HQ}
{Galron, S_S}

where my head is at I think. I'm actually townreading S_S a lot more now than I had been before today but Galron still my best bet for scum. I also think Andante is looking pretty townie in the exchange with HQ

also all these thoughts are my own I haven't really jammed/consulted with Datisi yet today

[GuiltyLion]

Datisi + Guiltylion - Datisi scum lean

Andante why you scumlean Datisi again? I don't really remember it and couldn't find much in a quick skim of your ISO

[GuiltyLion]

HQ, haven't you been scumreading RH9 all game?

[GuiltyLion]

ND have you ever scumread someone that townread you

from where I'm sitting if you're town it seems like the easiest thing for scum to do would be to townread you and let you just fight with everyone who scumreads you

saying "this person reads me correctly as town so they're town" is basically diving headfirst into a scum pocket, I have a hard time buying the "I need to be read correctly before I can start solving" idea, it's fucking hard to solve correctly when you're universally townread

[GuiltyLion]

Here is my long awaited observations and reads table.

Spoiler

Spoiler: Table

Observations And Reads
Players		Other
Original	Replacement	Notes	Verdict
Galron		I like 514. 657 seems like genuine concern. 2648 and 2649 feel like genuine concern too. I like 2560. I don't think scum!Galron would try to remind me of his scumgame.	Townlean
Datisi		I don't think that scum!Datisi would mention his scumgame either so I like 107. I like the way Datisi is generally posting. Examples of this include 574 and 577 (which is a double post of 576). 2841 interests me as it seems that Datisi is trying to sort Harley Quinn.	Townlean
Catboi	Shiro	I like 299 and 403 from catboi because it seems like he is trying to repel Cabd's advances as opposed to letting Cabd pocket him. Shiro's entrance in 2199 and 2201 made me smile. I mindmeld with 2645. However, I hope that 2670 was the result of a misunderstanding because that's the one post I dislike.	Townlean
Marcistar		I like the way that she's trying to solve. Examples include 580, 724, 1153, 1439 and 1795. I like her original readslist in 477 and later her 'vanilla readlist' in 2459. It feels genuine.	Town
Firebringer		Mindmeld with 2885 and 2780. I like 2605 because it seems like Firebringer wants to solve the game instead of being focused on only solving Andante. The exchange between Firebringer and Harley Quinn resulted in me moving him from a townlean to a TR. Examples of posts from that exchange that I liked include 2890 and 2894.	Town
Save the Dragons		2835 seems like he is trying to solve marcistar. Readslist in 739 seems OK. Pair ranking list seems fine in 3032, though I'm wary of pocketing. I like 3056.	Townlean
Ydrasse		I disagree with 2525 regarding Galron. I don't think that Galron's scum for reasons mentioned above. I like how she is trying to calm Harley Quinn down in 2187 and making good suggestions in 2181. Like her readslist in 1204 and explanation in 1587. 1567 and 1572 seems like genuine concern.	Townlean
Prism	NorwegianboyEE	See 2779 for why I disliked NorwegianboyEE and 2883 for the part where I recind the 'painting a narrative' part. I agree with 2717, though. I also like 3058 His predecessor, Prism seemed fine. I liked 989. 5 was an idiosyncratic entrance. It was definitely not what I expected. I seem to be wrong on NorwegianboyEE and I apologise humbly.	Null
GuiltyLion		I feel like GuiltyLion is an interesting slot to read. I find him quite calm and explantory in his interactions unlike a lot of other people. Examples include 180, 221, 237, 248, 261, 286, 2132. 264 feels like a genuine reaction and I am amazed at how GuiltyLion was so calm. 327 feels solvey. I disagree with 1887 because there's nothing melodramatic that GuiltyLion has done. Thanks for 1705! 1620 is interesting. Has things changed? 1562 and 1600 feels like something which I should have not skimmed past.	Town
Cabd	Something_Smart	Dislike Cabd's interaction with catboi in 274. However, Something_Smart is different. I like 1157 because it fits in with my read on GuiltyLion. The advice in 1160 and 1165 is appreciated. Other posts that I liked include 1296, 1375 and 2910. I like 2852. 2931 was mind-opening.	Townlean
angielily	Harley Quinn	I think that angielily's readslists in 469, 471 and475 was OK though outdated. I agree with 484. From Harley Quinn, I like 2875 and 2882 for the content. 2042 and 2596 feels solvey. 2166 interests me. It does seem to me that Harley Quinn is somewhat dependent on meta. 3028 would be my favourite post because I mindmeld with the first sentence.	Townlean
Alyssa the Lamb		I like a lot of posts she has made. Examples include 55, 267 and 279. Interesting meta is given in 2859, 2861, and 2868. Interesting advice in 2973, 2987 and 2993	Town
Andante		I mindmelded with Andante at times. Examples 489 and 497. However, I disagree on the push on Shiro & Harley Quinn. It feels like 'tunnel vision'. Pair ranking list in 3013 seems OK, though I vehemently disagree on her read on Harley Quinn. However, 2932 makes a bit of sense.	Null
Lady Lambdadelta	Titus	I have found a couple of Lady Lambdadelta's posts, quite notable. These include 362, 558 which I find to be good advice, 623 because it could make sense from her perspective, 625 which is a mindmeld regarding 'Meta ≠ Experience' and 627. Now to some notable posts by Titus. These include 1214, 1215, 1216, 1220, 1222, 1223, 1342, 1351, 1447 and 1463.	Town

did everyone just like, not read this post lol

a lot of it feels fake to me

[GuiltyLion]

to flesh out that thought

there's so much in there that's just like, "this feels genuine", "this was an interesting post", "advice here was appreciated", "mindmeld with this", etc. It feels like something he'd write if he just went through ISOs and needed to comment on posts. What's missing for me is any real underlying thought process in the vein of "I think this is likely to be town because [x]", looking for scum agenda in what people are doing, any sort of skepticism or uncertainty. Hence it feels fake, I don't see a mind that has incentive to correctly evaluate alignments behind any of his reasoning there.

What I want to do now is actually sit down with a RH9 town game and see if this is how he always feels or if the fake feeling is more unique to this game

[GuiltyLion]

to flesh out that thought

there's so much in there that's just like, "this feels genuine", "this was an interesting post", "advice here was appreciated", "mindmeld with this", etc. It feels like something he'd write if he just went through ISOs and needed to comment on posts. What's missing for me is any real underlying thought process in the vein of "I think this is likely to be town because [x]", looking for scum agenda in what people are doing, any sort of skepticism or uncertainty. Hence it feels fake, I don't see a mind that has incentive to correctly evaluate alignments behind any of his reasoning there.

What I want to do now is actually sit down with a RH9 town game and see if this is how he always feels or if the fake feeling is more unique to this game

See here, here and here for previous tables that were made as Town. Then, tell everybody that those are fake too. I don't care. I would rather that everybody uncovers the truth than believe lies.

ehhhh okay these tables aren't all that noticeably different from the one here, fair enough

[GuiltyLion]

Here is my long awaited observations and reads table.

Spoiler

Spoiler: Table

Observations And Reads
Players		Other
Original	Replacement	Notes	Verdict
Galron		I like 514. 657 seems like genuine concern. 2648 and 2649 feel like genuine concern too. I like 2560. I don't think scum!Galron would try to remind me of his scumgame.	Townlean
Datisi		I don't think that scum!Datisi would mention his scumgame either so I like 107. I like the way Datisi is generally posting. Examples of this include 574 and 577 (which is a double post of 576). 2841 interests me as it seems that Datisi is trying to sort Harley Quinn.	Townlean
Catboi	Shiro	I like 299 and 403 from catboi because it seems like he is trying to repel Cabd's advances as opposed to letting Cabd pocket him. Shiro's entrance in 2199 and 2201 made me smile. I mindmeld with 2645. However, I hope that 2670 was the result of a misunderstanding because that's the one post I dislike.	Townlean
Marcistar		I like the way that she's trying to solve. Examples include 580, 724, 1153, 1439 and 1795. I like her original readslist in 477 and later her 'vanilla readlist' in 2459. It feels genuine.	Town
Firebringer		Mindmeld with 2885 and 2780. I like 2605 because it seems like Firebringer wants to solve the game instead of being focused on only solving Andante. The exchange between Firebringer and Harley Quinn resulted in me moving him from a townlean to a TR. Examples of posts from that exchange that I liked include 2890 and 2894.	Town
Save the Dragons		2835 seems like he is trying to solve marcistar. Readslist in 739 seems OK. Pair ranking list seems fine in 3032, though I'm wary of pocketing. I like 3056.	Townlean
Ydrasse		I disagree with 2525 regarding Galron. I don't think that Galron's scum for reasons mentioned above. I like how she is trying to calm Harley Quinn down in 2187 and making good suggestions in 2181. Like her readslist in 1204 and explanation in 1587. 1567 and 1572 seems like genuine concern.	Townlean
Prism	NorwegianboyEE	See 2779 for why I disliked NorwegianboyEE and 2883 for the part where I recind the 'painting a narrative' part. I agree with 2717, though. I also like 3058 His predecessor, Prism seemed fine. I liked 989. 5 was an idiosyncratic entrance. It was definitely not what I expected. I seem to be wrong on NorwegianboyEE and I apologise humbly.	Null
GuiltyLion		I feel like GuiltyLion is an interesting slot to read. I find him quite calm and explantory in his interactions unlike a lot of other people. Examples include 180, 221, 237, 248, 261, 286, 2132. 264 feels like a genuine reaction and I am amazed at how GuiltyLion was so calm. 327 feels solvey. I disagree with 1887 because there's nothing melodramatic that GuiltyLion has done. Thanks for 1705! 1620 is interesting. Has things changed? 1562 and 1600 feels like something which I should have not skimmed past.	Town
Cabd	Something_Smart	Dislike Cabd's interaction with catboi in 274. However, Something_Smart is different. I like 1157 because it fits in with my read on GuiltyLion. The advice in 1160 and 1165 is appreciated. Other posts that I liked include 1296, 1375 and 2910. I like 2852. 2931 was mind-opening.	Townlean
angielily	Harley Quinn	I think that angielily's readslists in 469, 471 and475 was OK though outdated. I agree with 484. From Harley Quinn, I like 2875 and 2882 for the content. 2042 and 2596 feels solvey. 2166 interests me. It does seem to me that Harley Quinn is somewhat dependent on meta. 3028 would be my favourite post because I mindmeld with the first sentence.	Townlean
Alyssa the Lamb		I like a lot of posts she has made. Examples include 55, 267 and 279. Interesting meta is given in 2859, 2861, and 2868. Interesting advice in 2973, 2987 and 2993	Town
Andante		I mindmelded with Andante at times. Examples 489 and 497. However, I disagree on the push on Shiro & Harley Quinn. It feels like 'tunnel vision'. Pair ranking list in 3013 seems OK, though I vehemently disagree on her read on Harley Quinn. However, 2932 makes a bit of sense.	Null
Lady Lambdadelta	Titus	I have found a couple of Lady Lambdadelta's posts, quite notable. These include 362, 558 which I find to be good advice, 623 because it could make sense from her perspective, 625 which is a mindmeld regarding 'Meta ≠ Experience' and 627. Now to some notable posts by Titus. These include 1214, 1215, 1216, 1220, 1222, 1223, 1342, 1351, 1447 and 1463.	Town

did everyone just like, not read this post lol

a lot of it feels fake to me

You did read catboi's 573 about my towngame, before posting this, or did you not?

I did read that comment, that doesn't mean that you don't sound fake as scum either, or that I should take catboi's opinion as gospel. He even said in the same post he doesn't have a read on you, and he also indicated after his 573 that he scumread you later in 693.

Here is my long awaited observations and reads table.

Spoiler

Spoiler: Table

Observations And Reads
Players		Other
Original	Replacement	Notes	Verdict
Galron		I like 514. 657 seems like genuine concern. 2648 and 2649 feel like genuine concern too. I like 2560. I don't think scum!Galron would try to remind me of his scumgame.	Townlean
Datisi		I don't think that scum!Datisi would mention his scumgame either so I like 107. I like the way Datisi is generally posting. Examples of this include 574 and 577 (which is a double post of 576). 2841 interests me as it seems that Datisi is trying to sort Harley Quinn.	Townlean
Catboi	Shiro	I like 299 and 403 from catboi because it seems like he is trying to repel Cabd's advances as opposed to letting Cabd pocket him. Shiro's entrance in 2199 and 2201 made me smile. I mindmeld with 2645. However, I hope that 2670 was the result of a misunderstanding because that's the one post I dislike.	Townlean
Marcistar		I like the way that she's trying to solve. Examples include 580, 724, 1153, 1439 and 1795. I like her original readslist in 477 and later her 'vanilla readlist' in 2459. It feels genuine.	Town
Firebringer		Mindmeld with 2885 and 2780. I like 2605 because it seems like Firebringer wants to solve the game instead of being focused on only solving Andante. The exchange between Firebringer and Harley Quinn resulted in me moving him from a townlean to a TR. Examples of posts from that exchange that I liked include 2890 and 2894.	Town
Save the Dragons		2835 seems like he is trying to solve marcistar. Readslist in 739 seems OK. Pair ranking list seems fine in 3032, though I'm wary of pocketing. I like 3056.	Townlean
Ydrasse		I disagree with 2525 regarding Galron. I don't think that Galron's scum for reasons mentioned above. I like how she is trying to calm Harley Quinn down in 2187 and making good suggestions in 2181. Like her readslist in 1204 and explanation in 1587. 1567 and 1572 seems like genuine concern.	Townlean
Prism	NorwegianboyEE	See 2779 for why I disliked NorwegianboyEE and 2883 for the part where I recind the 'painting a narrative' part. I agree with 2717, though. I also like 3058 His predecessor, Prism seemed fine. I liked 989. 5 was an idiosyncratic entrance. It was definitely not what I expected. I seem to be wrong on NorwegianboyEE and I apologise humbly.	Null
GuiltyLion		I feel like GuiltyLion is an interesting slot to read. I find him quite calm and explantory in his interactions unlike a lot of other people. Examples include 180, 221, 237, 248, 261, 286, 2132. 264 feels like a genuine reaction and I am amazed at how GuiltyLion was so calm. 327 feels solvey. I disagree with 1887 because there's nothing melodramatic that GuiltyLion has done. Thanks for 1705! 1620 is interesting. Has things changed? 1562 and 1600 feels like something which I should have not skimmed past.	Town
Cabd	Something_Smart	Dislike Cabd's interaction with catboi in 274. However, Something_Smart is different. I like 1157 because it fits in with my read on GuiltyLion. The advice in 1160 and 1165 is appreciated. Other posts that I liked include 1296, 1375 and 2910. I like 2852. 2931 was mind-opening.	Townlean
angielily	Harley Quinn	I think that angielily's readslists in 469, 471 and475 was OK though outdated. I agree with 484. From Harley Quinn, I like 2875 and 2882 for the content. 2042 and 2596 feels solvey. 2166 interests me. It does seem to me that Harley Quinn is somewhat dependent on meta. 3028 would be my favourite post because I mindmeld with the first sentence.	Townlean
Alyssa the Lamb		I like a lot of posts she has made. Examples include 55, 267 and 279. Interesting meta is given in 2859, 2861, and 2868. Interesting advice in 2973, 2987 and 2993	Town
Andante		I mindmelded with Andante at times. Examples 489 and 497. However, I disagree on the push on Shiro & Harley Quinn. It feels like 'tunnel vision'. Pair ranking list in 3013 seems OK, though I vehemently disagree on her read on Harley Quinn. However, 2932 makes a bit of sense.	Null
Lady Lambdadelta	Titus	I have found a couple of Lady Lambdadelta's posts, quite notable. These include 362, 558 which I find to be good advice, 623 because it could make sense from her perspective, 625 which is a mindmeld regarding 'Meta ≠ Experience' and 627. Now to some notable posts by Titus. These include 1214, 1215, 1216, 1220, 1222, 1223, 1342, 1351, 1447 and 1463.	Town

did everyone just like, not read this post lol

a lot of it feels fake to me

You did read catboi's 573 about my towngame, before posting this, or did you not?

And fake is an objective word. Why didn't you give your definition of 'fake' earlier? Were you trying to do a reaction test? Because if you were, then I feel hurt that you would do so. If you didn't, explain what led to you making 3182?

I'm struggling for scumreads if slots I previously suspected like S_S (or HQ) might be town, and I don't really have a particularly compelling reason to think you've done anything this game that you couldn't do as scum. I think you have a fair point that you have posted similarly shallow/fake-

sounding

posts as town, but it's really hard for me to look at anything you've posted and feel like scum!RH9 can't or wouldn't post that. The "fake" feeling is that a lot of your posts feel to me like an emulation of what you think solving sounds like, like you're trying to post things you think you would post as town rather than posting genuinely

[GuiltyLion]

I wasn't sure about her slot after she called me town, and my plan at that point was to get in a PT and solidify my town read

so the "I want LLD to endgame" thing was just a LLD reaction test

please don't say stuff you don't really mean it makes it hard for me to discern between scum bullshitting and town bullshitting to ~reaction test~

but I do kinda understand your proposal a lot better if this was the real angle

[GuiltyLion]

don't say that to Smart because anyone can just "name names" apparently

[GuiltyLion]

I would like more people to chime in and say whether they think it's possible Shiro is pocketing Harley.

If enough people say so then at least we can prove to her that they're not all in bad faith.

I definitely agree with your vote/push on the "Shiro solving" inconsistency and could see Shiro pocketing HQ here

I could also still imagine a scum!HQ paired with town!Shiro defending him, so it kinda feels to me like that pairing is likely T/S flavored in some way or another

I need to reread catboi again to try to remember why I townread him and if those were Good Reasons

[GuiltyLion]

he strikes me as the type to plan out his pairings more carefully as scum whereas that feels like genuine fear of getting left with a shit partner

what if scum!RH9 was too timid to make a move early

like I can see why you think this way, but I don't know if I agree, if he's a Planning Type he might have stalled in paralysis due to not sure what the Best Plan would be

and as scum he could then later be genuinely afraid of getting left with a partner that's bad for his win con

[GuiltyLion]

I agree with alyssa rh9 as endgame pair

where did this come from? you're confident on RH9 despite not being confident on half the table?

I don't think I have any endgame pairs at the moment, frankly. I've oscillated between Fire/Andante and Titus/STD but the more I townread S_S (and now potentially Galron??) the more it feels something is terribly wrong

[GuiltyLion]

Norwee, what has marci been posting in your PT? any update on your read on her?

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Norwee/Marcistar

- Norwee's explanation for which Prism posts were obvtown was severely lacking
- Norwee's townread on HQ is pockety
- Norwee dodging Taly's offer to dance was weird
- Norwee/marcistar aren't talking about each other much for slots that weren't very firm on each other when they paired
- feeling anxious about S_S/Galron being a T-T pair after all makes me wanna vote elsewhere
- sheeping Datisi

I kinda gut think marci is town but I'm not so confident in it that I don't want to vote here for that reason

and I think I need some real flips or at least wagons to make any real progress. I just said this to Datisi in our PT but I don't get a sense that I've been actively working against scum in this game and that freaks me out and makes me want to vote a weaker scumread, rather than people I've previously been focused on

[GuiltyLion]

also I don't know if I made this clear but I think Galron's 3291 is a super townie post, the third paragraph kinda resolves a ton of what I didn't like about his play and I totally buy his reasoning on having different experience previously with LLD

[GuiltyLion]

i don't think you can say you're sheeping me when you offered all these Reasons for voting there while i my vote was essentially "what does this button do?"

oh hush, I'm sheeping your vote