House of the Dragon - Game Over!

[furtiveglance]

I replace Bellaphant

I also got in a PT somehow so that's cool

I haven't seen GoT or HotD, too gorey for me

I haven't read the game apart from casually spectating before I replaced in, I'll read *some* later

[furtiveglance]

Alright guys I read the mod ISO. Flavour looks really cool, mechanics as well. Can we do follow the Cop with the King's Hand and the Grand Maester, as long as the Master of Coin gives them both enough coin? If the Grand Maester dies, we just get a new one right? Is there a problem with this?

[furtiveglance]

UNOwen do you think Follow the Cop works? If there's scum somewhere in the chain we can work out who it is, otherwise we get a check every night

[furtiveglance]

UNOwen do you think Follow the Cop works? If there's scum somewhere in the chain we can work out who it is, otherwise we get a check every night

I don't care at all. Someone else can think about mechanics to figure it out.

Are you bitter not to have a cool title yet? I'm sure they'll all get killed off and we can take over

[furtiveglance]

Are you bitter not to have a cool title yet? I'm sure they'll all get killed off and we can take over

Extremely bitter yes, especially since I was cruelly led to believe I would be on the council.

But actually I'm just not really interested in trying to break or otherwise optimize a set up. Mechanics talk is always dull to me.

Follow the Cop is never a breaking strat, I'm just suggesting what might be good play.

I haven't read much of the game, why don't you talk me through your no 1 townread and no 1 scumread?

[furtiveglance]

So the Kingsguard hasn't been decided yet then? Andres, who do you think you'll pick? Is it realistic to hope for all town?

[furtiveglance]

Selected thoughts on players I've played with before:

Andresvmb - Unsure/complex read. I townread him hard in Datisi's Cafe, our only previous game together. I was 3p but I really did townread him. This game he seems different, angrier/more confrontational in places. And more of his posts are quite long paragraphs I think. Not obvious town like before, and he's playing differently. But players can play differently in different games. I think I need a closer look at Andres, maybe in a Kingsguard PT

GuiltyLion - Townread, seem to be thinking critically. Surprised he isn't on the council, could be a good pick for Kingsguard.

Lukewarm - unsure. I remember townreading him in a game I spectated of his when they were mafia.

Mastina - seems Town, compared with the 1 completed game we were in together when she was town.

PenguinPower - could be Town based on the game we played together. I'm never really certain on Penguin though

PD - seems town based on experience

Titus - unsure. I've done 1 game of town Titus and 1 game of mafia Titus. I'd say closer to Town here.

Sorry these thoughts are really bare. But I'd endorse me, GL, Mastina, PD for the Kingsguard.

[furtiveglance]

I would like the King to execute: VOTE: Charloux

[furtiveglance]

Follow the Cop is never a breaking strat, I'm just suggesting what might be good play.

I haven't read much of the game, why don't you talk me through your no 1 townread and no 1 scumread?

I'm very confident TSQ is town. They seem to be on the level - not trying to push any agenda, keep an open mind about all players. I feel as scum there would be a more consistent narrative coming from him, but he's touching on all parts of the game with the perspective of someone who's truly uninformed. For example, he's expressed doubts about Andres a couple of times - IMO scum would not think to show that fear at this point, they'd just bank Andres as a town read until they needed to go back to it later. Especially since TSQ is more focused elsewhere. Specifically I started to town read him when he didn't see a problem with him accusing me of faking my read on him but thinking I could be town doing that. I think his response to me sounded very sincere, as in he truly didn't get what I was getting at, which makes me believe that his approach was genuine.

I don't really have scum reads that I'm all that confident on yet but Charloux is my best bet if I had to pick at the moment. The most "smoking gun" about him is that this progression:

Spoiler:

Baltar is a jerk. Don't like him deciding the whole roster of who gets what position, feels powerwolfy.

You would say that as both alignments tho. To me you being town is ~70%. It would be 75% but i have a weak townread on Enchant and Fire.

VOTE: VP Baltar I don't really have a reason to oppose it, and he seems competent.

Looks bad to me. I don't think it's likely that town would phrase the first comment in that way about someone they were 70-75% sure was town. The way they backed down so quickly on the VPB council picking being an issue doesn't seem natural. I also disliked the comments about not putting himself on the council, which sounds like something town!Charloux is unlikely to bother saying since obviously he wasn't getting on the council but scum!Charloux might say because he wants to look uninterested in getting power.

I would like the King to execute: VOTE: Charloux

I agreed with UNOwen's read on Charloux

[furtiveglance]

VP Baltar, is UNOwen scum?

[furtiveglance]

VP Baltar, is UNOwen scum?

Possibly. Owen remains in my PoE.

Is UNOwen your preferred kill today? If not, who?

I watched you play in a Guardians of the Fortress game. A lot of the way players treated you seemed to be based on your site history, all of which was complimentary. Were you surprised not to be a power role? Do you want to be on the Kingsguard?

[furtiveglance]

I could support a Dwlee elimination also, I'm even seeing a Charloux/Dwlee scum/scum world

[furtiveglance]

I'm happy to put more pressure on with 4 days left

VOTE: Dwlee99

[furtiveglance]

GuiltyLion/Lukewarm beef reminds me of Mastina/Lukewarm beef in Datisi's cafe. Could be T/T. LLD looks pretty obvious town, so does Mastina. I townread UNOwen as well. I think Junko and VP probably have 1 Mafia between them. Firebringer could be Mafia. Datisi is sus. Andante is town.

I'm going back to Charloux

VOTE: Charloux

[furtiveglance]

I think Junko and VP probably have 1 Mafia between them.

do you have reasoning for this

this looks like a part of a content post that you pulled out of your ass in order to fill it out to an appropriately aesthetically pleasing size

It's the really casual way JunkoChan shaded VP Baltar. Makes me think they're either right or scum. Do you think I pulled that one part out of my ass and the rest of my post was genuine, or do you think my ass was the origin of the entire post?

[furtiveglance]

Ok, so here is where my head is at:

King: andres
Prince of Dragonstone: GuiltyLion (maybe?)
Hand of the King: (IDK, should this be a scummy person we force to give a result?)
Lord Commander of the Kingsguard: VP Baltar (LLD, I will put you on the kingsguard with me so we can find the traitors)
Master of Coin: Dannflor
King's Justice: TSQ

What other roles do we need to assign? Are we taking risks with the kingsguard appointments by not putting any scummy people on the small council?

Mom Baltar is acting scummy again

This

[furtiveglance]

I don’t know I haven’t really decided yet

Is this something that happened in PT? Or can you quote it, if not can you point it to me in PT

Why do you think casual shade is anti-partnery

I wouldn't heckle my partner Baltar as they were doing their thing, I don't think they'd tell me to either

[furtiveglance]

Lukewarm - unsure. I remember townreading him in a game I spectated of his when they were mafia.

I am actually struggling to even parse what you are saying here:

You are leaning town on my content, but unsure because of a game you spectated which made you think you would town read me as scum?
You are leaning scum on my content, but unsure because of a game you spectated which made you think you would town read me as scum?

You are still null on my content unrelated to that game (and mentioning the game is just a stray thought)?

Also, why is your point of reference for me in this post a game that you spectated, instead of any of the games we have actually played together?

I can't read you basically. I've never played with you when you were mafia, but I tracked you in one of those games.

[furtiveglance]

PD - seems town based on experience

Do you have experience with him outside of Lost?

No other completed games.

[furtiveglance]

Did we establish who firebringer is funding and why?

The Cop and the Doc right

[furtiveglance]

If not today, when does the King get to execute?

[furtiveglance]

Dear Westeros

It has come to my attention both in this thread and in the Supporters of the King PT that several other citizens find me 'sus', a 'scummy slot' and that the previous holder of my title 'didn't say much'. People tell me "explain your reads", they say I pull things from my orifices, they ask me questions to which I have not the answers.

To this end, I have to decided to redouble my efforts. There is an errand I must do in the north, but after that I will scrutinise this community like never before, and cast a definitive judgement on the Kingdom from the lowliest servant to the Iron Throne itself. This will happen within the next several hours.

Game of thrones-style signoff.

[furtiveglance]

Dear Westeros

It has come to my attention both in this thread and in the Supporters of the King PT that several other citizens find me 'sus', a 'scummy slot' and that the previous holder of my title 'didn't say much'. People tell me "explain your reads", they say I pull things from my orifices, they ask me questions to which I have not the answers.

To this end, I have to decided to redouble my efforts. There is an errand I must do in the north, but after that I will scrutinise this community like never before, and cast a definitive judgement on the Kingdom from the lowliest servant to the Iron Throne itself. This will happen within the next several hours.

Game of thrones-style signoff.

You will do nothing at double effort?

Thanks.

The errand

[furtiveglance]

I probably should attempt do some amount of busywork because that's what people townread on this site and then after doing said busywork people will go "whoa guys Maria is town let's unvote" like a bunch of SHEEP.
Or, I can keep posting like this, probably have correct reads and get voted. Such hard choices.

Hi Maria. Why did you say there's 1 Mafia in Dwlee/Datisi, and then vote GuiltyLion who has fewer votes than Dwlee?

[furtiveglance]

Do you think if I click the iso button on DWlee he'll be extremely wolfy? I just saw two posts from DW in a hood I share with them and GL's backtrack on this page so I voted GL. I could iso them that's probably optimal but ehhh
pedit: That should be extremely self-explanatory

I don't think this is self explanatory. You basically said you were voting to save your ass (which is fine as town), but then voted the lesser wagon when you're saying dwlee has 50% chance of being scum. Idgi

Mindmeld, we are both confirmed

[furtiveglance]

Spoiler:

1. unwnd (Prince of Dragonstone) - Scum. unwnd is pretending to think about the game. I hope they never become Monarch. My main point is that their positions on slots are stagnant. UNOwen is their top scumread already in post 1763 and this hasn't changed in 1858. Similarly, they call Andante null in 1811 ('unsure, just forgot about [Andante]') and then again in 1942 ('Laws [Andante] - No opinion). I don't buy that Town!unwnd wouldn't have thought about Andante in this time enough to give a definitive read on her, given both the amount of content she produced early game and her important position on the Small Council. These continued reads were strategic choices by someone who doesn't need to read.

2. Titus - Town. Titus is quite insightful and sharp here (see 781, 785, 788 and 795), and she couples that with an unnecessary amount of styling (see 770, 1348 and 1536) that I don't think she was doing as scum in the Cafe, probably felt less relaxed in that game.

3. PenguinPower - Town. Playstyle feels very similar to the Cafe. A lot of short posts and questions. Vote on Dwlee is good, I agree with the stance PenguinPower's taken regarding Lukewarm's push on GuiltyLion as well. Not the strongest read because I think his play is easily replicable as scum.

4. Andresvmb (Lord Commander of the Kingsguard) - I was conflicted, but I've settled on Town now. Get me on the Kingsguard.

5. Lukewarm (Master of Whisperers) - 94 makes me think Town, because I've seen Town!Lukewarm try to townread players on page 1 for outside of the box reasons before. 40 (refusing King) is a bit scummy, because I don't think scum would want the limelight in this game. I think in that games that Lukewarm becomes a TR for me, and a strong TR when they do, it's because they make a detailed case on that player (and I usually agree). The game I'm thinking of is Newbie 2090. I'm reading that case for the first time now, and I can see 2 good points (1 is the inconsistency about LLD, 2 is the reluctance to be King and VP Baltar pocket). I remember there was a reason I townread GL, let me read now and I'll see.

Spoiler:

6. Andante (Master of Laws) - 59 already has me sold on Andante being Town. I agree with a lot of the case as well. 131 is extremely ambitious, I think the hunger is Town.

7. Thestatusquo (King) - I'm finding several posts very scummy here. 440 looks like an attempt to take on an almost administrative position in the Town (similar to LAMIST), 573 is a scumtell in my experience. It's hard to categorise, maybe declaring intent to do something game-related based on nothing/meme reasons? No Town motivation for doing that. 607 is unnecessarily snapping at UNOwen for what looks like a pretty innocuous question. This could just be angry town. I don't like that TSQ is King, but I don't think it's wise to push them at the moment. Hopefully they'll just get townier. Obviously I will protect the King if I'm a Guard.

8. VPBaltar - Town. 863 is more likely to come from Town I think, directly engaging with the setup. Wouldn't put it past Baltar to be scum, just not likely for me.

9. Dannflor - Town, but less than some.

10. Unowen - Town, bet my entire LIFE.
11. GuiltyLion - 108 is towny. 1085 is a bad list, because the Lukewarm scumread is completely reactive and my slot is Town. I'm then surprised by the vote on Dwlee over Lukewarm. If I was being accused by what I thought was loud scum, I'd vote them ahead of anyone else. I don't see why Town would have any kind of apprehension about a big ol' toxic 1v1, you could expose a Mafia. It's a Large after all. It makes me think GL didn't want the smoke. Scumread. I might vote here.

Spoiler:

12. Firebringer (Master of Coin) - seems quite open and Towny.

13. Dwlee99 - I spectated a scumgame once, it was multiball, can't remember the game. This looks a bit similar from what I remember. Probable scum.

14. MariaR - Replace in was interesting. I'll move my vote away, but not sold.

15. Datisi (Hand of the King) - A lot of Socratic method going on, which could be a substitute for scumplay. Progression on Lukewarm - I don't get the 835 ('k Luke is scum'), it looks lazy. I don't know really, never played with Datisi before. I get the feeling they're always posting and thinking about the game so they'd be hard to catch as Mafia. But it's definitely possible that they are. Probably won't vote them early game.

16. mastina - Town. I understand the reads, agree with some of them (1044).

17. Junkochan (Grand Maester) - I disagree with Andante and Mastina as scumreads. This could be scum!indicative. Don't want JunkoChan in the council D:

18. Lady Lambdadelta - I think 1302 is very Town.

19. ProfessorDrapion - Seems Town, not sure on the reads though. Maybe a bit wrongfident town.

20. Enchant - Town, but I also townread Enchant a bit in (the now completed game) Normal whatever it was.

So, to clarify:

Town

UNOwen
Andante
Andres
Lukewarm
Mastina
LLD
Firebringer
PP
Titus
VP Baltar
PD
Enchant
Dannflor

Null

Datisi
MariaR
TSQ

Scum

JunkoChan
Dwlee
GL
Unwnd

VOTE: GuiltyLion

[furtiveglance]

@furtive - if you are null and conflicted on TSQ, why do you want to be on Kingsguard?

Because if they are town I can protect them

[furtiveglance]

Spoiler:

1. unwnd (Prince of Dragonstone) - Scum. unwnd is pretending to think about the game. I hope they never become Monarch. My main point is that their positions on slots are stagnant. UNOwen is their top scumread already in post 1763 and this hasn't changed in 1858. Similarly, they call Andante null in 1811 ('unsure, just forgot about [Andante]') and then again in 1942 ('Laws [Andante] - No opinion). I don't buy that Town!unwnd wouldn't have thought about Andante in this time enough to give a definitive read on her, given both the amount of content she produced early game and her important position on the Small Council. These continued reads were strategic choices by someone who doesn't need to read.

2. Titus - Town. Titus is quite insightful and sharp here (see 781, 785, 788 and 795), and she couples that with an unnecessary amount of styling (see 770, 1348 and 1536) that I don't think she was doing as scum in the Cafe, probably felt less relaxed in that game.

3. PenguinPower - Town. Playstyle feels very similar to the Cafe. A lot of short posts and questions. Vote on Dwlee is good, I agree with the stance PenguinPower's taken regarding Lukewarm's push on GuiltyLion as well. Not the strongest read because I think his play is easily replicable as scum.

4. Andresvmb (Lord Commander of the Kingsguard) - I was conflicted, but I've settled on Town now. Get me on the Kingsguard.

5. Lukewarm (Master of Whisperers) - 94 makes me think Town, because I've seen Town!Lukewarm try to townread players on page 1 for outside of the box reasons before. 40 (refusing King) is a bit scummy, because I don't think scum would want the limelight in this game. I think in that games that Lukewarm becomes a TR for me, and a strong TR when they do, it's because they make a detailed case on that player (and I usually agree). The game I'm thinking of is Newbie 2090. I'm reading that case for the first time now, and I can see 2 good points (1 is the inconsistency about LLD, 2 is the reluctance to be King and VP Baltar pocket). I remember there was a reason I townread GL, let me read now and I'll see.

Spoiler:

6. Andante (Master of Laws) - 59 already has me sold on Andante being Town. I agree with a lot of the case as well. 131 is extremely ambitious, I think the hunger is Town.

7. Thestatusquo (King) - I'm finding several posts very scummy here. 440 looks like an attempt to take on an almost administrative position in the Town (similar to LAMIST), 573 is a scumtell in my experience. It's hard to categorise, maybe declaring intent to do something game-related based on nothing/meme reasons? No Town motivation for doing that. 607 is unnecessarily snapping at UNOwen for what looks like a pretty innocuous question. This could just be angry town. I don't like that TSQ is King, but I don't think it's wise to push them at the moment. Hopefully they'll just get townier. Obviously I will protect the King if I'm a Guard.

8. VPBaltar - Town. 863 is more likely to come from Town I think, directly engaging with the setup. Wouldn't put it past Baltar to be scum, just not likely for me.

9. Dannflor - Town, but less than some.

10. Unowen - Town, bet my entire LIFE.
11. GuiltyLion - 108 is towny. 1085 is a bad list, because the Lukewarm scumread is completely reactive and my slot is Town. I'm then surprised by the vote on Dwlee over Lukewarm. If I was being accused by what I thought was loud scum, I'd vote them ahead of anyone else. I don't see why Town would have any kind of apprehension about a big ol' toxic 1v1, you could expose a Mafia. It's a Large after all. It makes me think GL didn't want the smoke. Scumread. I might vote here.

Spoiler:

12. Firebringer (Master of Coin) - seems quite open and Towny.

13. Dwlee99 - I spectated a scumgame once, it was multiball, can't remember the game. This looks a bit similar from what I remember. Probable scum.

14. MariaR - Replace in was interesting. I'll move my vote away, but not sold.

15. Datisi (Hand of the King) - A lot of Socratic method going on, which could be a substitute for scumplay. Progression on Lukewarm - I don't get the 835 ('k Luke is scum'), it looks lazy. I don't know really, never played with Datisi before. I get the feeling they're always posting and thinking about the game so they'd be hard to catch as Mafia. But it's definitely possible that they are. Probably won't vote them early game.

16. mastina - Town. I understand the reads, agree with some of them (1044).

17. Junkochan (Grand Maester) - I disagree with Andante and Mastina as scumreads. This could be scum!indicative. Don't want JunkoChan in the council D:

18. Lady Lambdadelta - I think 1302 is very Town.

19. ProfessorDrapion - Seems Town, not sure on the reads though. Maybe a bit wrongfident town.

20. Enchant - Town, but I also townread Enchant a bit in (the now completed game) Normal whatever it was.

So, to clarify:

Town

UNOwen
Andante
Andres
Lukewarm
Mastina
LLD
Firebringer
PP
Titus
VP Baltar
PD
Enchant
Dannflor

Null

Datisi
MariaR
TSQ

Scum

JunkoChan
Dwlee
GL
Unwnd

VOTE: GuiltyLion

VOTE: Furtiveglance



I read this like 10 times and there's no way you get to a conclusion that me and Guiltylion are both scum together (that would be like the ultimate distancing from both of us if you actually read our interactions) and makes me think GL is actually town if you flip red

And putting me on scum list because i read mastina and andante (2 players with questionable reasoning for their reads) as possible acum in early game is bs reason to have me there

Did I say together necessarily? No, that was your addition. I don't think all 7 players null or below are mafia together, that's the nature of a readslist.

[furtiveglance]

I think furtives readslist comes from a decent place albeit a bit rushed

I did the first few in a bit of detail and thought "if I do this for everyone I'll never be done" so yeah just quicker judgements on a few slots

[furtiveglance]

If you're going to cut corners like that why even do it at all though

Because I wanted to show people that I was engaged with the game and had real thoughts.

[furtiveglance]

I don't think anyone ever seriously has a read on the whole PList, especially when it's more than 13 people. There's no way in hell I'm gonna be dedicating that much time to sort. What are the most important reads of yours? Would you be willing to rephrase them?

You can just look at top 3 town and top 3 scum then, you are my most scum. I want you out ASAP basically.

[furtiveglance]

I don't think anyone ever seriously has a read on the whole PList, especially when it's more than 13 people. There's no way in hell I'm gonna be dedicating that much time to sort. What are the most important reads of yours? Would you be willing to rephrase them?

You can just look at top 3 town and top 3 scum then, you are my most scum. I want you out ASAP basically.

Why am I just chilling in the middle with just two completely nonsense points when I should probably be your number one goal to sort, especially because you said you wanted to be on the kingsguard?

VOTE: Furtive

How are my points nonsense?

Also, I said I don't know if you're town or not. I want to get on the Kingsguard in the instance that you are town, so I can be there instead of a mafia who might unprotect you.

[furtiveglance]

Deer in headlights moment

VOTE: Furtive

I'm right here. What are you saying by deer in headlights? I didn't stop posting for any period of time.

This is an unashamed piggyback and should be noted as scum outting

[furtiveglance]

Deer in headlights moment

VOTE: Furtive

Seriously, does anyone see this in a Town!unwnd way? They have no preceding scumread on me, are voting someone else, and then as soon as I call them out they vote me at the earliest opportunity (triggered by King's vote just before). This is surely outed mafia.

[furtiveglance]

You didn't answer my previous post

Made me think your thoughts weren't real after all

Why was your concern 'real thoughts'

You should know they are real, especially if you're town

Ok I missed this. You're still scum, don't get me wrong.

There's nothing to answer here anyway. I know that my thoughts are real. The point of the game (part of it at least) is to demonstrate to other players that you're town, not just to sit there and know you're town as you get voted out. So I wanted to show people my thought process.

[furtiveglance]

Still not answering the post

This is just performative.

[furtiveglance]

I have used 37 posts, I have 113 left. I will be online for the next couple of hours at least. I intend to get a lot of content out. Roll up one and all

[furtiveglance]

No, it was a legitimate question? My initial reaction to your response is there for all to see. I still stand by that-- your post sounded rushed. I asked you why you were cutting corners and you didn't respond Strike one. You yourself admit this, in which said that you posted them because you wanted people to know your 'real thoughts'. It shouldn't be an issue if they're real or not. Strike two. Why were you concerned about this if you were town. That was my point, and instead of engaging with me, you chose to throw out ad hoc without substantiating on what was initially asked, which shows you are not actually interested in figuring out my alignment. Three strikes and you're out.

Strike one: I just said, I missed that post. If you don't buy that, calling me a deer in the headlights is still wrong because I was online and answered it minutes later.

Strike two: I wanted to show THAT I had real thoughts, BECAUSE several players had called me scummy/a nothing slot etc.

Strike three: You're right, I'm done with you. I was done before you voted me and I think you knew that. I sorted you. You came up bad. You voted me. Fine. I'm typing this for the benefit of others, not you.

[furtiveglance]

It makes me think GL didn't want the smoke.

furtive, this seems like a stretch to me, you're basing this entirely off the fact that I didn't vote Lukewarm. The reason I didn't vote Luke was because I started doubting my scumread and at some point tipped over into fully townreading him.

I don't blame you for not picking up on that as I think I mostly discussed it in the PT and not in the main thread, it was really only covered here:

I'm also maybe waffling on Lukewarm, I'm wondering if we just have major playstyle friction. I agree with everything TSQ just pointed out about his Titus read, it's the same issues I had with his LLD read, but I'm wondering if Luke kinda just... actually thinks like that? He had one post about how people read "confidence" into his reads that he doesn't feel is there which kinda resonated with me, it reminds me of similar issues I've had with Roden and S_S to a lesser degree, where I just chronically scumread the way they think about the game and what they decide to post and how they arrive at reads.

and in 1892 when I was engaging Datisi on the Dwlee/Luke S-S theory.

However, I

do

blame you for accusing me of "not wanting the smoke". I'm not afraid of toxic 1v1s as either alignment, I had already substantively engaged Lukewarm in a big 1v1 earlier in the day, it's not really something I historically shy away from. Why do you think your first impression seeing my Dwlee vote is that I am scared scum avoiding Luke's attention by voting Dwlee instead, like what was that based on? I don't think it is based on history with me, so I'd like to understand why you discounted any number of possible town!explanations (I had a stronger SR on Dwlee, I wanted to wagon Dwlee alongside the other Dwlee voters, I felt like pressuring Dwlee would help me read them, etc, etc). I think the scum argument you're making here is dubious (GL doesn't like 1v1s as mafia whereas he would choose to have one as town)

Yeah, I thought that you had said some quite definitive stuff on Lukewarm in the main thread "Lukewarm is scum" etc. And I didn't see the thoughts play out in that PT. What I perhaps should have said is that it's not just your vote not being on Lukewarm, but being on Dwlee specifically. Dwlee was just a lurkscum type of slot, the kind of vote I do when I don't have any particular scumreads (which your read on Lukewarm seemed to be based on what you were saying).

As for the smoke, take yourself out of the hypothetical for a second. Why DID you vote Dwlee?

[furtiveglance]

Which players were calling you scummy/nothing slot and how did this tie into your 'reads'

GuiltyLion called Bellaphant a scumread quite early. Baltar, Junko and Datisi in the PT I'm in were calling me scummy, low content slot etc. They can attest to this.

[furtiveglance]

I don't have access to that PT

Now how does this tie into your reads? You have me and GL at the bottom so we're both just scum now who are pushing on you?

What's your point here? I got the sense from the playerlist as a whole that I was a consensus null/scum read and wanted to change it. I also wanted to finally get round to giving some detailed reads just for my own pleasure as well

[furtiveglance]

@furtive - if you are null and conflicted on TSQ, why do you want to be on Kingsguard?

especially because you said you wanted to be on the kingsguard?

I just saw you and GL both comment on his stance of wanting to be on the kingsguard, while I feel like "wanting to be on the kingsguard despite not having a solid town read on the king" is actually a townie stance, that I did not think that you had really realized.


I kind of feel like, if a scum wanted to get on the kingsguard with the intent of letting you be night killed, they would not be simultaneously saying "put me on the kingsguard" and "I don't town read the king" and would instead want to look like The Person Who Definitely Choose To Protect The King, How Could This Tradgety Have Happened, I Am Devestated At This Injustice.

I never said I wouldn't protect the King. I obviously would

[furtiveglance]

My point is that If I'm interpreting this correctly

The people who dislike you (or your slot) are scum

That's a very shallow interpretation for someone who could muster up a readslist

I didn't pre-ordain that. In fact, why don't you find precedent for YOU scumreading ME before that readslist of mine?

[furtiveglance]

My point is that If I'm interpreting this correctly

The people who dislike you (or your slot) are scum

That's a very shallow interpretation for someone who could muster up a readslist

My point is that If I'm interpreting this correctly

The people who dislike you (or your slot) are scum

That's a very shallow interpretation for someone who could muster up a readslist

I didn't pre-ordain that. In fact, why don't you find precedent for YOU scumreading ME before that readslist of mine?

I didn't really care about your slot until you embarrassed yourself

Now I'm just trying to figure out if you're just awkward (but mean well) or scum who didn't think through

I lean latter

Let's recap.

Fig. 1: unwnd says I just omgussed my detractors

Fig. 2: I ask unwnd to find where they scumread me before I said they were scum

Fig. 3: unwnd admits that they didn't scumread me prior to my readslist.

Question: Who omgussed who?

[furtiveglance]

Your vote isn't on me

It doesn't have to be for my point to be valid. If no one had any votes right now, I'd vote you. I voted GL because it was the existing wagon that I most believed in.

[furtiveglance]

If you want to try again another day I don't mind but next time really think about what you're going to say instead of just posting

I'm not trying to sound like a dick, but I cannot help but feel like you are showing all signs of nervousness. Right now I think it reflects upon a guilty conscience. I believe this as your attitude towards me is confrontational, only because I happened to question you on your motives. It starts exactly how it ended-- I ask you why your thoughts are real and you continue to be hedgy about it. What's worse, you even had the gall to try and point one of my posts like OH MY GOD, LOOK AT HOW SCUMMY IS THIS? IS ANYONE SEEING THIS? Like what was even the point there. If you think I'm scum make better arguments, or just continue to flail I guess.

Don't talk to me for the rest of the game. It's over between us. I'm declaring war with the land of unwnd.

VOTE: unwnd

[furtiveglance]

Because those points are just facially stupid. And ignores a lot of context.

Me asking people who haven't posted to post is "administrative?" Is the claim that I'm somehow trying to avoid posting about the game by making posts like this that are easy? Because if you thought that you'd probably look at the rest of the points and see if the rest of my posting this game were somehow of this sort of variety? You don't seem to have done this at all. It's an unfinished thought. I don't think any fair reading of my posts this game could possibly come to the conclusion that I'm attempting to score townie points or avoid real interaction in that way. Not to mention the fact that town makes posts like this all the time. I've made posts similar to this tons of times as town. I'll bet some amount of money that if I read your town games I'd also find plenty of posts you've made similar to that one.

The second point is me being annoyed at rhae, and saying I want them to kill them. You say this is a scum tell in your experience with no other explanation. What experience? What's the scum motivation for posts like this that town doesn't have? Barring that, show me the "experience." Where have scum done this? Please I'd love to see the posts.

The third thing is me being annoyed. Again, no examination of scum vs town motivation.

Your three points seem to be that I got annoyed a couple of times and that I wanted to hear from lurkers.

No discussion of my reads. No discussion of my votes. No discussion of my explanations of my positions in this game. Nothing.

It's like you knew you had to come up with reasons for why you said "oh no I might be in the wrong PT!" and then ex post facto couldn't find anything to actually justify that comment.

Also, I said I don't know if you're town or not. I want to get on the Kingsguard in the instance that you are town, so I can be there instead of a mafia who might unprotect you.

Yes. Which is why the fact that you clearly put no effort whatsoever into actually sorting me makes even less sense. You'd think that I'd be the person you'd most want want to sort, given the fact that you need to determine if you want to protect me or not if you're on the kingsguard.

You're saying "I can be there instead of mafia who might unprotect me." is the kind of question I'd maybe think you'd be interested in answering but your attempts to find the answer to that question seem to be limited to like the first 10 posts of my iso with the dumbest surface level read I've ever seen.

Concentration of posts: Yes I mostly looked at early ISO posts. This game is thousands of posts, each with its own little message by one of 21 users who all put effort into the posts. The defence of "I made other posts which weren't LAMIST" doesn't really offset the one that was to me. It's not carbon footprint. And you completely misinterpreted my point about "Whoever kills Rhae has my vote tbh". It wasn't just being annoyed, I explained it pretty well actually. Scum often do this when they want to look like town who don't care about the game, it's fake casualness.

[furtiveglance]

Recap -

Furtive: Here is my readlist
Me: This readlist seems a bit rushed why'd you cut corners
Furtive: Yeah I admit it was rushed
Me: OK What are the most important reads then
Furtive: Ummm the 3 at the top and the 3 at the bottom? Just wanted to show people I have real thoughts
Me: OK, why do you care if people think you have real thoughts? They should be real regardless because you're (presumably) town
Furtive: .........
Furtive: THIS IS SCUM THIS IS SCUM OUTING PIGGYBACKING MUCH? *Points to my post* IS ANYONE SEEING THIS? WHY WOULD TOWN!UNWND DO THIS? OUTED MAFIA

*unshun unwnd*
I didn't say it was rushed, I spent a good amount of time thinking. Probably too much for a stupid online game. I didn't say the ones at the top and bottom of the spoilers, I obviously meant on the ranking underneath which was ordered because the 3 most town and 3 most scum reads are the ones on which I'm most certain (obviously). Your point about 'real thoughts' is such a desperate reach for a point of substance. I explained it twice at your request. There was no extended elipses. I said twice that I missed the post at the time. I never went silent. Stop promoting that fictitious narrative. You neatly declined to mention that you voted me straight after the King did, which would be opportunistic at any time but in this setup with a KING is even more so.
*re-shun unwnd*

[furtiveglance]

He's fresh meat Lion just vote him he already can't explain his 'real thoughts'

This post annoys me coming from either alignment. Why does the meta seem to be about poking people to get a kind of emotional reaction that makes them look a certain way/easier to read? Don't tell me this is aimed at GL. It's clearly to antagonise me, and I don't like it. I was really looking forward to putting some time into this game, make one list and I get waterboarded with hatorade. Really demoralising.

[furtiveglance]

All I did was ask a few simple questions about the readlist you made. We're here now. I didn't like your answers I felt they were hedging and you were scrambling to turn the point against me. I also don't really understand why you would decide that I'm not worth talking to? We're having a shitfight. It's useful to me. This back and forth is what mafia is all about. This is how I develop reads the most instead of just sitting there and postulating. I prefer confrontation.

There's some merit in this point...some. But not in the way I outlined above, I don't like it.

[furtiveglance]

He's fresh meat Lion just vote him he already can't explain his 'real thoughts'

This post annoys me coming from either alignment. Why does the meta seem to be about poking people to get a kind of emotional reaction that makes them look a certain way/easier to read? Don't tell me this is aimed at GL. It's clearly to antagonise me, and I don't like it. I was really looking forward to putting some time into this game, make one list and I get waterboarded with hatorade. Really demoralising.

That's just how some people play the game. I am not trying to demoralize you, but I am doing some things for intended effect. You are more than willing to question me on my motives/reads/whatever.

Don't get me wrong, I think your intention was "provoke furtive to make him look like salty scum hehe", but the fact that some town players think "I'll just wind this player up to get a more natural reaction out of them" is a really toxic problem with online mafia and it also allows scum to do the former and get away with it

[furtiveglance]

I'm gonna go back and answer a few things but I am very much in support of a VP wagon.

I think unwnd and furtive should stop the little game though, it won't get much done. Focus somewhere else or stop the conversation for now, yeah?

Fine, I'll go to bed then. Don't have to tell me twice

[furtiveglance]

Fire didn't give the Cop a check?????

[furtiveglance]

Datisi might be more sus than GL after that flip, a big part of their D1 was 'Lukewarm sus'

[furtiveglance]

I think Firebringer is scumclaiming

VOTE: Firebringer

[furtiveglance]

as annoyed as i am about fire not giving me money, i can buy his explanation in the council pt, and i still townread him overall. and i'm also waiting on some other stuff in the council pt as well.

agree with enchant being townier today.

that wagon on guiltylion is atrocious, and dwlee really needs to die.

VOTE: dwlee

furtiveglance stonks are falling down even further. shading both fire and me in the span of 3 minutes feels opportunistic, especially since those two thought processes seem kinda difficult to co-exist.

What is Fire's explanation?

[furtiveglance]

fire can say if he wants

can you answer the question at the bottom of 2490?

Who did you push D1? One of your main pushes was Lukewarm, they just flipped town. That makes you sus to me

[furtiveglance]

I see no reason for Firebringer and GL not to be mafia together

[furtiveglance]

Are wolves giving you all *hugs* in the PT?

yes

Yes

[furtiveglance]

I see no reason for Firebringer and GL not to be mafia together

This ain't it champ.

Datisi or junko, what's up with the night actions? Junko says they got money from fire and sent a potion to datisi. Datisi didn't get anything last night.

I do think fire needs to make this explanation that looks townie in thread please.

How is it not it? What makes Fire and GL unpaired? Or do you just disagree with both reads separately?

Also, Datisi said they did get a potion in 2490.

[furtiveglance]

Andres Mr Commander,
Why is it ok to you that the Master of Coin gave the Cop no coin?

[furtiveglance]

Is there valid and reasonable reason for Fire to not give datisi money?

Its called a bank account.

To who you gived money?

i gave it all to luke so that town has no money.

How is this not openwolfing. Several players are calling me dumb for voting this.

[furtiveglance]

Andres Mr Commander,
Why is it ok to you that the Master of Coin gave the Cop no coin?

Are you serious? Of course I’m not okay with it. I started today with a vote on Fire for their controversial choices. I think they could easily be Scum motivated, and I agree with Enchant.

My view of the game has dramatically evolved - I will not be voting for GuiltyLion. I just won’t. If you guys execute there and they flip Town, I will take steps to limit the damage done immediately.

Ok I missed that you voted them earlier. Why did you hop off now though? Dwlee could be mafia, but they still could be town. I refuse to believe that Firebringer could be town anymore.

[furtiveglance]

Ok maybe I shouldn’t have said it like that.

But you get what I’m saying, this is nuts.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with Junko or Forebringer’s posts, wolves are pushing agenda.
I am confident both of the two are town.
They also don’t have one vote for the other when choosing for a king, y’all need to use your head!

And this is probably Scum. Not necessarily for the defenses, but just generally I’m rescinding my TR here. The fact that Drapion thinks they’re empowered to limit the Town’s choice of execution here is ridiculous.

What if mastina and PD were both Town? That's my current read.

[furtiveglance]

Ok maybe I shouldn’t have said it like that.

But you get what I’m saying, this is nuts.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with Junko or Forebringer’s posts, wolves are pushing agenda.
I am confident both of the two are town.
They also don’t have one vote for the other when choosing for a king, y’all need to use your head!

And this is probably Scum. Not necessarily for the defenses, but just generally I’m rescinding my TR here. The fact that Drapion thinks they’re empowered to limit the Town’s choice of execution here is ridiculous.

“Probably scum cause defence”
Yeah I’m not garbage like the wolves are this game lmao.
If I’m a wolf I distance and sometimes buss or even hell buss.

“Limit the towns execution choice”

Bitch if we execution Firebringer and they flip town and there is a good chance they will we will be right back to where we are today but in a worse position.

I’ll be honest, I’m putting you back to Null cause I can’t tell if your being manipulated by wolves here or your the mind behind this play and the reason you chose the king guards you did was because VP and GL are on your team.

Again I’m not sure which alignment you are as of now but you need to understand what is optimal right now and what is optimal is to resolve Dwlee/GL or we are going to just keep MLing.

IS THAT WHAT YOU FUCKING WANT!?
YOU ENJOY ML YEAH YEAH!
MMMM TASTY EH?

D_D

Tone it down a bit

I also scumread GL, I just think Firebringer is more outted for not funding the Cop and then memeing about it instead of explaining.

[furtiveglance]

Why is Firebringer not being speedvoted? Their actions are inexcusable.

[furtiveglance]

Why is Firebringer not being speedvoted? Their actions are inexcusable.

@Firebringer
This is getting annoying and some town are getting confused.

Just claim who you targeted last night plz.
Furtive thinks your wolf cause you said you gave it to Luke so town can lose.
Which is obviously not serious but Furtive doesn’t seem to get that.

Scum can be unserious as well. I can't think of any legitimate reason to fund the Doctor/Tracker and not the Cop. Refusal to give any information or explanation is scumclaiming. I broadly agree with your reads, stop being so annoyingly stubborn and condescending.

[furtiveglance]

Just claim who you targeted last night plz.

Here is what I will keep public since I already said it would be:
Junko got money.
Then I spent money in investments.
That is all.

I will not reveal anything about how much anything costs, including how much i started with or what i have now, etc. I said this from the beginning here and the in council PT.

That info is not useful for town and none of you could audit it anyway. None of you can prove if i even spent money on investments or i didn't give money to Luke. Theres no reason for me to claim the money available or how much i had. Any town pissed off and pressuring me for some accountability on this literally don't see how this info could be useful for scum.

Here is the basic point that scum probably should have pierced together but town who can't catch a clue should understand: Not everyone could have performed an action night one.

Enchant points about me making bad decisions is based on him knowing only seeing the end result. If Junko had performed a save, my decision would be held in better regard for it. But she didn't, not her fault and I didn't expect it to succeed.

It's pretty obvious that you could have funded Cop and Doc together for a strong combo.

[furtiveglance]

Just claim who you targeted last night plz.

Here is what I will keep public since I already said it would be:
Junko got money.
Then I spent money in investments.
That is all.

I will not reveal anything about how much anything costs, including how much i started with or what i have now, etc. I said this from the beginning here and the in council PT.

That info is not useful for town and none of you could audit it anyway. None of you can prove if i even spent money on investments or i didn't give money to Luke. Theres no reason for me to claim the money available or how much i had. Any town pissed off and pressuring me for some accountability on this literally don't see how this info could be useful for scum.

Here is the basic point that scum probably should have pierced together but town who can't catch a clue should understand: Not everyone could have performed an action night one.

Enchant points about me making bad decisions is based on him knowing only seeing the end result. If Junko had performed a save, my decision would be held in better regard for it. But she didn't, not her fault and I didn't expect it to succeed.

It's pretty obvious that you could have funded Cop and Doc together for a strong combo.

Your logic on why im scum is too simplistic for me to figure out if its genuine or not.

I haven't been privy to any of the council discussions. I've seen no explanation of your decision to fund Lukewarm, Junko and idk who else instead of Datisi. I suggested the Cop + Doc combo being good as it creates a de facto Follow the Cop loop if you do it every night, assuming Town in the roles. I got no response, from anyone, including you. The only reason not to fund the Cop is if you think they're scum, but you haven't said that or even implied it (you literally just said you thought the entire council was good), so your claimed gameview doesn't match your decision. You are mafia.

[furtiveglance]

Yeah thats what i mean by simplistic.
You could have those thoughts as either alignment. Its very simple philisophical question of gameplay. I can't read a motivation in you professing these takes. Because it lacks any substance of figuring out my motivations for doing any of these actions. You are proclaiming certain actions default to scum behavior, which gives me nothing to see if ur thinking about me as a player. Rather than some grand idea of how town/scum should and would act.

This is why i call it simplistic, and why i can't figure out ur alignment from it.
Kind of worthless.

You chose not to make the optimal play. That remains true no matter what the specific information you got is, because I know that you could at minimum fund Cop + Doc, and that you claimed to townread Datisi. This was not a large brain 5head play. It was very obvious. You made a different choice, which would be terrible to do as town, especially making zero sense with your claimed reads. You then declined to explain to the main thread at all, instead claiming to fund the dead guy's role (possibly as a joke, it doesn't matter). I'm just repeating myself at this point, but my vote is locked onto you for the rest of the game until one of us dies.

[furtiveglance]

have fun with that

I'm not having fun. Everyone is ignoring me, I can't believe Enchant is the only other player making sense right now. I don't really have a preference on GL/Dwlee rn, they're both scumreads of mine. But Fire is just outted mafia.

[furtiveglance]

if you want people to listen to you, make compelling cases or work together with people to solve the game.

You are excluding the majority of the players by only speaking to the council. Another example of your play as a contradiction, which is a symptom of being mafia.

[furtiveglance]

just general advice on u as a player, cause u seem to be a solo "here is my opinion. it is right, everyone should follow me" kind of player. That usually doesn't get people to just sheep u. The only times that will get others to sheep u is when they don't have strong opinions of their own and being lazy (the sheep) and when you have an uber reputation of being a good player. This is like only 1-2 people that were on this site that could unilaterly just claim X is scum and get a whole wagon to just push for them to be lim.

You don't have either of these situations, if you want people to listen. Go to work with them and help them figure stuff out as well as show your willingness to listen as well yourself.

That's not what I'm doing. I'm just observing the mechanics of last night and concluding that you're mafia as a result. I've already outlined why it makes you mafia, people should be able to see it. It's not like I just went 'Fire sus' and nothing else.

[furtiveglance]

That's not what I'm doing. I'm just observing the mechanics of last night and concluding that you're mafia as a result. I've already outlined why it makes you mafia, people should be able to see it. It's not like I just went 'Fire sus' and nothing else.

Okay, just don't think this is compelling case ur making.
Hey i managed to get town lean on u from this exchange. So this was useful.

Again, if you actually thought I was town you'd want me to stop voting for you, and therefore would explain to me your actions last night.

[furtiveglance]

Here's a purely mechanical argument for those players who townread Firebringer despite their actions being inexplicable, and unexplained:

Having a protected Cop check every night puts Town in a much better position that not having one. We know that Firebringer as Master of Coin will stop this from happening, whether they are Town or Mafia. Therefore we urgently need a new Master of Coin who will fund both the Cop and the Doctor. The only way to establish a new Master of Coin is to kill the current one, and therefore vote out Firebringer.

[furtiveglance]

Just claim who you targeted last night plz.

Here is what I will keep public since I already said it would be:
Junko got money.
Then I spent money in investments.
That is all.

I will not reveal anything about how much anything costs, including how much i started with or what i have now, etc. I said this from the beginning here and the in council PT.

That info is not useful for town and none of you could audit it anyway. None of you can prove if i even spent money on investments or i didn't give money to Luke. Theres no reason for me to claim the money available or how much i had. Any town pissed off and pressuring me for some accountability on this literally don't see how this info could be useful for scum.

Here is the basic point that scum probably should have pierced together but town who can't catch a clue should understand: Not everyone could have performed an action night one.

Enchant points about me making bad decisions is based on him knowing only seeing the end result. If Junko had performed a save, my decision would be held in better regard for it. But she didn't, not her fault and I didn't expect it to succeed.

@Furtive, stop being tunnelled and vote a wolf I named all 5 you can choose one and I’d prefer you vote out Andres so I can make you Prince after Andres and Johnny’s wolf flips.

Andres is Town, you are a Clown. I scumread Dwlee, GuiltyLion, Datisi, and I think you COULD be right on Baltar or Penguin.

[furtiveglance]

Having a protected Cop check every night puts Town in a much better position that not having one.

i think the issue is that you're assuming this is something that is possible to have in this setup, which is not information we have.

You're correct, but I'd be very surprised if you couldn't fund 2 of 4 power roles in a night.

[furtiveglance]

Slots that need to leave the game for Town to win (furtiveglance edition):

1. JohnnyFarrar

2. GuiltyLion

3. Dwlee99

4. Firebringer

5. VP Baltar

VOTE: GuiltyLion

[furtiveglance]

but my vote is locked onto you for the rest of the game until one of us dies.

my dude this didn't even last half an hour

With a reread of the Master of Coin description I considered the possibility that part of Pooky's intent was to create suspicion on the role by making it seem easier to fund more PRs than it actually is. I am considering this possibility. I am also considering the possibility that you are mafia and lying. You are not safe from me. Do not relax.

[furtiveglance]

i wonder if i can petition pooky to offer an investment for Coin bodyguards. I think i will surely need this.

If you don't fund Datisi tonight, no bodyguard will save you. That probably goes without saying.

[furtiveglance]

Execution Vote Day Two

With nineteen players alive - it will require ten votes to eliminate a player.

Dwlee99 [7]:

GuiltyLion, Titus, Andresvmb, VP Baltar, Andante, Junkochan, Unowen

GuiltyLion [3]:

Thestatusquo, mastina, furtiveglance

Firebringer [1]:

Enchant,

Datisi [1]:

Dwlee99

Andresvmb [1]:

ProfessorDrapion

not voting [6]:

JohnnyFarrar, PenguinPower, Dannflor, Lady Lambdadelta, Datisi, Firebringer,

Execution Deadline: (expired on 2022-12-02 22:58:35)

What a Beautiful ML wolves got to stall for 2 days from manipulating the king cause the king town read this ML.

Nice!

Vote GL

[furtiveglance]

Occam's razor

VOTE: Dwlee99

[furtiveglance]

From what I can tell Dweelee is an apathy wagon

what's an apathy wagon? I'm pretty certain on dwlee maf here, like, one look at that ISO... that is not town!dwlee

Yeah +scum for Johnny there, mischaracterisation of the wagon. +Town for Andante

[furtiveglance]

I mean call me what you want, that's the vibe.

I don't see it, could be argued that it's a partly semantic point. Dwlee99 is a consensus scumread by virtue of not doing what is expected of town. If you're calling it an apathy wagon, you need to think about the main reasons people are voted. Rarely it's for scumslips, sometimes a player will make a detailed case and be followed by other players, but a lot of the time it's for lurking/not doing what people expect of Town!you. To call it an apathy wagon belies the extent to which a lot of players are scumreading Dwlee, it's not a compromise wagon, it's a main vote in its own right.

[furtiveglance]

I have a bit of a partial solve coming together but it’s a bit spicy. Wanna give it a bit of Harvestella before I post it.

Can anyone confirm for me if doc was suggested to be on cop during D1 before N1? I think so and this is just rudimentary but would like to verify that please.

Please don’t hammer anyone until I catch up entirely.

I have no idea, I suggested it and got blanked

[furtiveglance]

I have a bit of a partial solve coming together but it’s a bit spicy. Wanna give it a bit of Harvestella before I post it.

Can anyone confirm for me if doc was suggested to be on cop during D1 before N1? I think so and this is just rudimentary but would like to verify that please.

Please don’t hammer anyone until I catch up entirely.

I have no idea, I suggested it and got blanked

Link me where please?

Alright guys I read the mod ISO. Flavour looks really cool, mechanics as well. Can we do follow the Cop with the King's Hand and the Grand Maester, as long as the Master of Coin gives them both enough coin? If the Grand Maester dies, we just get a new one right? Is there a problem with this?

UNOwen do you think Follow the Cop works? If there's scum somewhere in the chain we can work out who it is, otherwise we get a check every night

2nd post when I got here

[furtiveglance]

I don't want to overthrow the King if Dwlee flips scum

[furtiveglance]

This is what I have right now: {Titus, VPB, Dannflor, UNOwen, furtiveglance}. Since I don’t know the flip, it’s hard for me to put GL in there, though honestly I probably would otherwise.

Put PD and Mastina in, take Dannflor out

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: dwlee, E-1.

dwlee has not magically become obvtown.

Can I get some time to respond to people and have more interactions first? I haven't had much time to settle into the game yet.

Settle down now

[furtiveglance]

And let me further ask:

If Dwlee is scum, where is the actual counterwagons?

There has been no concentrated counterwagon to the Dwlee wagon.

There was a MariaR wagon yesterday--which fell apart.
There was a GuiltyLion wagon yesterday--which didn't manifest.
There has been ZERO coherent wagons today--meaning that there isn't a coordinated push from scum today.

So

for Dwlee to be scum, the scum must be making absolutely

ZERO

effort to save them.

Which is more likely?
That the scum have given absolutely no attempts to save their scumbuddy who if flipped would spew half the town as town and basically ensure that the town wins through PoE alone...
...Or that maybe, just maybe: Dwlee is town and scum are fine with Dwlee dieing?

Dwlee. is. town.

Why can't Dwlee be being bussed hard, just like Ircher was in Datisi's Cafe?

[furtiveglance]

Interesting on the Math kill. Datisi, gib cop result.

i was waiting for someone to ask!! sad nobody else was thinking of me.

anyway. i decided i was checking in my bottomest tier. as i was rereading the game, i started feeling worse and worse about mastina, and i also started feeling like it was likely there was at least one scum who was properly/loudly defending dwlee.

i checked mastina. she is town.

and @dann, no i didn't say in advance who i was gonna check.

Mastina was obvious town.

[furtiveglance]

incoming half the game praising me and half the game screaming at me for that pick. math is rolling in his grave right now. sorry math.

That is not what you do with a Cop check. You check someone who will likely be voted.

[furtiveglance]

furtive, can you answer the question gl asked you in the supporters pt about me?

Just to clarify, I hadn't checked the PT yet. I wasn't avoiding it.

[furtiveglance]

i do not agree at all johnny is scum.

who is scum there bud

already told u the whole council is town.

I don't think you really believe this.

[furtiveglance]

@fire, who are you considering to be scum again?

if ur read my crazy theory in council pt. Its the lower wim players

Unowen, Dannflor, Enchant, Titus/Lld

I want to talk to dannflor more though, i think he might just had life stuff that lowered his WIM that doesn't fit my theory.

Unowen is def scum in my book.

UNOwen is Town

[furtiveglance]

Are votes to eliminate still active?

[furtiveglance]

Lol trial by combat alright. Let's make two scummy fucks fight to the death

This doesn't work because mafia won't challenge mafia. Only a scumread town would do this and it doesn't sound look a good idea

[furtiveglance]

Lol trial by combat alright. Let's make two scummy fucks fight to the death

This doesn't work because mafia won't challenge mafia. Only a scumread town would do this and it doesn't sound look a good idea

Majority decides on two players. Refusal means you get eliminated.

Johnny vs ???

This sounds less efficient/just the same as voting out both of said players 2 days in a row.

[furtiveglance]

Do we get to vote in this challenge?

[furtiveglance]

I'll be honest, I don't get this mechanic.

[furtiveglance]

I'll be honest, I don't get this mechanic.

Fantastic flavor!

Yeah it's been fun all game

[furtiveglance]

Andres you can't die you're our rock as obvtown captain of the kingsguard

you dying in the scum!Shea world would be a throw

This is unironically how I think of Andres

[furtiveglance]

If I'm on the Kingsguard tonight I'm overthrowing the entire Council

[furtiveglance]

Why don’t we work through an example, because I’m not understanding your point @Enchant.

The current Council is this:
King: TSQ (as they make selections, I presume they cannot be picked for a PR, but I don’t remember reading that anywhere, though I would also think that logically that makes sense)
Prince: Johnny
Hand: Datisi
LORD COMMANDER: Andrés
Master of Coin: Firebringer
Master of Laws: Andante
Master of Whisperers / Grand Maester: [Empty]

Scenario 1: You allocate Grand Maester to say me (since you do not want to allocate Cop + Doctor to the same person), you do not allocate Master of Whisperers. I get shot holding two PRs including Doctor (since I cannot protect myself), but force the Scum to not shoot Datisi as the Hand (since we care that they get a result again tomorrow). Okay, then Lord of the Kingsguard is up for grabs, and so is Master of Whisperers + Grand Maester. You’re left with 4 other players on the Council (outside the King), and 3 roles to distribute which can all be handed out since no one is holding two PRs then.

Scenario 2: You allocate Grand Maester (to me again), but you allocate Master of Whisperers to Datisi as the Hand. Okay, I get shot. So Lord Commander + Grand Maester up for grabs, and one player (Datisi) holds two PRs. You now have 2 roles to distribute, and everyone in the Council but Datisi can get an additional PR (3 players). How is this not strictly better than the situation above?

Note, this is NOT me advocating to get Grand Maester. If anything, I don’t want it because it’ll get me NK’ed, but I’ll accept it if strictly necessary. But I don’t see how you don’t end up in a better place if you distribute the two PRs that remain instead of just one.

Why don't we make Johnny the Grand Maester, tell them who to give potions to. If they're Town they become a likely nightkill target which solves their slot, and if they're Mafia they have to help us with the potions or we vote them.

[furtiveglance]

Why don’t we work through an example, because I’m not understanding your point @Enchant.

The current Council is this:
King: TSQ (as they make selections, I presume they cannot be picked for a PR, but I don’t remember reading that anywhere, though I would also think that logically that makes sense)
Prince: Johnny
Hand: Datisi
LORD COMMANDER: Andrés
Master of Coin: Firebringer
Master of Laws: Andante
Master of Whisperers / Grand Maester: [Empty]

Scenario 1: You allocate Grand Maester to say me (since you do not want to allocate Cop + Doctor to the same person), you do not allocate Master of Whisperers. I get shot holding two PRs including Doctor (since I cannot protect myself), but force the Scum to not shoot Datisi as the Hand (since we care that they get a result again tomorrow). Okay, then Lord of the Kingsguard is up for grabs, and so is Master of Whisperers + Grand Maester. You’re left with 4 other players on the Council (outside the King), and 3 roles to distribute which can all be handed out since no one is holding two PRs then.

Scenario 2: You allocate Grand Maester (to me again), but you allocate Master of Whisperers to Datisi as the Hand. Okay, I get shot. So Lord Commander + Grand Maester up for grabs, and one player (Datisi) holds two PRs. You now have 2 roles to distribute, and everyone in the Council but Datisi can get an additional PR (3 players). How is this not strictly better than the situation above?

Note, this is NOT me advocating to get Grand Maester. If anything, I don’t want it because it’ll get me NK’ed, but I’ll accept it if strictly necessary. But I don’t see how you don’t end up in a better place if you distribute the two PRs that remain instead of just one.

Why don't we make Johnny the Grand Maester, tell them who to give potions to. If they're Town they become a likely nightkill target which solves their slot, and if they're Mafia they have to help us with the potions or we vote them.

@furtive I don’t agree. I thought about the strategic point of giving the role of Doctor to the Scummiest person on the Council, but if you scrutinize the logic, it fails I think.

Scrutinise it then

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: JohnnyFarrar

[furtiveglance]

Why is Firebringer not being speedvoted? Their actions are inexcusable.

i just think it feels like furtive is playing dumb in this interaction, to play up the "town confused why nobody else is seeing what he's seeing" vibe

i think he's smarter than this and as town would be more likely to take the next step of actually thinking about why nobody else seems to agree with him that firebringer is scumclaiming instead of being stubborn and waiting for someone to explain it to him so that he can have a ~progression~

I still sus Firebringer. I hadn't given the bank idea as much thought though because no one had mentioned investments that I saw. So now I've walked it back from 'should be speedvoted' to just 'should be voted'.

[furtiveglance]

Whatever happens today, I want TSQ gone tonight. Whether I'll want to overthrow the monarchy as a whole depends on their pick for Prince of Dragonstone, assuming JF is eliminated.

[furtiveglance]

This is an unashamed piggyback and should be noted as scum outting

This is surely outed mafia.

How is this not openwolfing. Several players are calling me dumb for voting this.

Why is Firebringer not being speedvoted? Their actions are inexcusable.

also i think this type of stuff just reads as very fake to me, and doesn't sound like how he usually approaches things as town. there's no nuance or even really attempts to sort others in these situations, just taking a hard stance

I haven't had as much time as I would have wanted for this game, maybe that's why I seem different.

[furtiveglance]

I think fireisredsir is Town because I townread Andante.

[furtiveglance]

I haven't had as much time as I would have wanted for this game, maybe that's why I seem different.

does having less time make you react in a more extreme, less nuanced manner to things?

Call my views extreme if you want. JF (replacement) and Firebringer are a now consensus scumread and a polarising player respectively, I was ahead of the curve on both. Judge me on those flips, we'll see if I was right like O was on Dwlee

[furtiveglance]

I haven't had as much time as I would have wanted for this game, maybe that's why I seem different.

does having less time make you react in a more extreme, less nuanced manner to things?

Call my views extreme if you want. JF (replacement) and Firebringer are a now consensus scumread and a polarising player respectively, I was ahead of the curve on both. Judge me on those flips, we'll see if I was right like I was on Dwlee

Typo

[furtiveglance]

that

1) isn't what i was saying. its not that the views are extreme compared to consensus, it's that you jumped to extreme conclusions (outed mafia) very quickly and without much nuance

2) doesn't answer the question. im wondering why you having less time is relevant to that

Quicker judgements

[furtiveglance]

call me firetiveglance

[furtiveglance]

Getting fed up of Datisi bad checks and green results

[furtiveglance]

I think we sheep firebringer today and lim unowen. I feel pretty decent about fire being town here, and trying his direction after the mislim yesterday makes sense.

Also, datisi, can you tell me who you planned to investigate last night before Titus came up and why?

You mind also linking me the most recent games you played where you had an investigative role?

VOTE: unowen

I don't like this post - VP doesn't seem like the type of player to sheep usually, Fire isn't towny objectively so that's either TMI or wrong, and separately I townread UNOwen.

Unemotional reaction to another green check, I'd expect some disappointment/stronger questioning of Datisi's decision

VOTE: VP Baltar

[furtiveglance]

Also, datisi, can you tell me who you planned to investigate last night before Titus came up and why?

You mind also linking me the most recent games you played where you had an investigative role?

i didn't. if i had ended up having zero time for the game on n3, i probably would've aimed somewhere in roden/unowen. maybe dann/lld if i ended up deciding not to do my scumpool and instead try to aim at a lolnull slot instead.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87284
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=90062

i was palmer in the anon game

Thanks, I'll read over these after I get some work done this morning.

Furtive, what are you basing your assertion that I would never sheep on?

Guardians of the Fortress game

[furtiveglance]

Challenge: VP Baltar

[furtiveglance]

I'll fight you furtive.

Yeah challenge me you Dwlee apologist

[furtiveglance]

Nah I'll just respond to your challenge by shooting you.

You might as well, I think the game's up for you

[furtiveglance]

Andres bottled it by protecting last night

[furtiveglance]

Nah I'll just respond to your challenge by shooting you.

You might as well, I think the game's up for you

Andres bottled it by protecting last night

what

what

[furtiveglance]

Go on then

Accept Firebringer's challenge

[furtiveglance]

That flip is a massive bummer

[furtiveglance]

I the Paramount of Reach challenge Lord furtiveglance
Tarly to a duel

I have to quote the post to accept

Accept Firebringer's challenge

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: Enchant

[furtiveglance]

I want contributions to who I select. Otherwise, I may go chaos here.

Go chaos, I need some new ideas as well

[furtiveglance]

Whatever happens today, I want TSQ gone tonight. Whether I'll want to overthrow the monarchy as a whole depends on their pick for Prince of Dragonstone, assuming JF is eliminated.

this post is also still v weird and unexplained

he hasn't really pushed for shea being scum besides this, and it just kind of seems out of nowhere?

unless im missing something from PTs im not in

Remember when Dwlee got saved

[furtiveglance]

I have 3 votes fun. The king is scum, half-rhyme

[furtiveglance]

Occam's razor

VOTE: Dwlee99

furtive can you explain your thought process behind voting dwlee when you did

and also what your current read on firebringer is

Real time interaction fun

1) I had voted Dwlee previously, on D1 I think. Since then I had voted several slots, all of which were giving me headaches (i.e. difficult to read but I thought they were sus for various reasons). Dwlee wasn't really doing much when they came into the thread apart for a scumread on Datisi, they felt quite placid/neutral almost, so I thought the simplest solution was that the player efforting the least was Mafia. Hence 'Occam's razor'.

2) I scumread Firebringer, hence accepting the challenge. I could be voting Firebringer right now, but I'm not. Why? I'm not too sure, I considered it but chose to vote Enchant instead.

[furtiveglance]

did you consider the possibility that scum could be pushing dwlee as an easy miselim? it seemed like at points on d2 you were scumreading GL, baltar, datisi, all of whom were pushing dwlee

and id like more of an explanation on your vote tbh. there must have been something that made you choose enchant

1) Yes hence not voting them sooner but mastina's post defending Dwlee highlighting all the votes they had got ironically made me think they were scum getting bussed

2) Enchant epitomises laziness/hiding right now, especially when several players are duelling/arguing about King/Council/Kingsguard

[furtiveglance]

Remember when Dwlee got saved

When did you decide this was definitely a scum move?

It's been a journey. I voted to protect last time I was in the Kingsguard but I was close to overthrowing

[furtiveglance]

I don't want to overthrow the King if Dwlee flips scum

and also, what was your thought process behind this post, and what changed between that and now saying that shea saving dwlee is why he's scum?

I thought it would be too obvious, but now as I've seen 2 scumreads flip green TSQ is standing out more as scummy

[furtiveglance]

Yes hence not voting them sooner but mastina's post defending Dwlee highlighting all the votes they had got ironically made me think they were scum getting bussed

who did you think was the scum bussing?

I think I thought GL/VP could have been bussing

Now I'm not so sure on GL, but I've still got my eye on them

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: Dannflor

I think scum don't want this flip

[furtiveglance]

furtive, do you mind actually answering what i asked you?

lld, i'll get back to you in a bit

Was it why did I vote Johnny? I thought my scumread of unwnd was quite clear so I didn't answer that

[furtiveglance]

I thought it would be too obvious, but now as I've seen 2 scumreads flip green TSQ is standing out more as scummy

This is a wrong timeline btw, as furtive had turned against the king before either Johnny or VPB flipped.

I sort of think it's town though. There isn't really a point to this progression for scum (same with the Enchant vote).

Ok you are right. I now recall that I thought VP was mafia persuading Andres not to overthrow

[furtiveglance]

2) Enchant epitomises laziness/hiding right now, especially when several players are duelling/arguing about King/Council/Kingsguard

it's kind of ironic to hear you say this when your vote on enchant is the epitome of lazy right now. before being prodded about it, you were doing nothing to convince anyone to vote enchant.

the issue i have and why i struggle to believe that vote is real because you very clearly had a scumread on firebringer. that you were talking about for days. and you challenged him. and now that the trial ended, and firebringer had a few votes and you could've turned him into a real wagon, you instead voted enchant...? becuase...?

I already said, I could have voted Firebringer, but like I said previously the way Dwlee stood out was by not really saying much, Firebringer is doing enough to make me question a bit, even though I still suspect them

[furtiveglance]

so who are your scumreads currently again?

Dannflor, Enchant, Firebringer, Fireisredsir as well for their whack tunnel on me

[furtiveglance]

We need to kill Datisi at some point to confirm the cop checks - none of them are getting nightkilled. Is everyone comfortable with this?

[furtiveglance]

We need to kill Datisi at some point to confirm the cop checks - none of them are getting nightkilled. Is everyone comfortable with this?

Honestly nothing about Firebringer eh?

Challenge: Furtive

I honestly don’t care if your town at this point, we need a resolve to make Mastina open her eyes on the council.

?
I started the Firebringer thing and I still scumread them

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: Firebringer

[furtiveglance]

Is it just me that can't comprehend a green check on LLD? If Datisi does flip scum, LLD should be next

[furtiveglance]

By the way, seeing as Mafia already know who they targeted, can someone on the council tell us why there wasn't a death? Important to know if someone was saved, or if someone was roleblocked

[furtiveglance]

Is it just me that can't comprehend a green check on LLD? If Datisi does flip scum, LLD should be next

the only read you ever gave on her prior to this was "obvious town" in 2061

did you forget what your read was supposed to be or

Her content dropped off massively, do you disagree?

[furtiveglance]

Is it just me that can't comprehend a green check on LLD? If Datisi does flip scum, LLD should be next

the only read you ever gave on her prior to this was "obvious town" in 2061

did you forget what your read was supposed to be or

Her content dropped off massively, do you disagree?

It was already dead by that point. This is not an argument.

Yeah but there was a delay in me seeing it. Like I thought your early posting was towny, and when I townread someone's posts that gives them town in my eyes for a bit even if they stop posting so much. But after a while I just think you're scum who couldn't keep it up

[furtiveglance]

ill let mastina dorp all the details on night actions.
she seemed like she wanted the honors in council chat

Yeah please do, if we have a town clear courtesy of doc that would be really useful

[furtiveglance]

do we want to kill datisi today?

I'm very interested in killing Datisi today actually...I just had a thought

isn't it better to squeeze at least one more cop check out of him, if not more (if we flip scum today)

what's the argument for killing him today specifically

Thing is that if we agree to vote him out tomorrow and he is scum then he can just miraculously find a 'mafia' and get another miscondemn

[furtiveglance]

ill let mastina dorp all the details on night actions.
she seemed like she wanted the honors in council chat

Yeah please do, if we have a town clear courtesy of doc that would be really useful

isnt ur theory theres scum on council.
i.e like myself.
how does the night actions help u get a clear.
I knew the actions.

Information is information.

[furtiveglance]

ill let mastina dorp all the details on night actions.
she seemed like she wanted the honors in council chat

Yeah please do, if we have a town clear courtesy of doc that would be really useful

isnt ur theory theres scum on council.
i.e like myself.
how does the night actions help u get a clear.
I knew the actions.

Point is I can't think of a scenario in which the council somehow knows something the mafia don't, so you may as well out what happened to the whole game.

[furtiveglance]

ill let mastina dorp all the details on night actions.
she seemed like she wanted the honors in council chat

Yeah please do, if we have a town clear courtesy of doc that would be really useful

isnt ur theory theres scum on council.
i.e like myself.
how does the night actions help u get a clear.
I knew the actions.

Information is information.

that doesn't answer how it whatever result becomes a clear when u think theres a plant in the council who would know what actions exist and thus can work around them pretty easily.

Just say what happened. Why wait for mastina at this point

[furtiveglance]

If Datisi's checks are all legit, the gamestate doesn't make too much sense to me. Maybe Roden and Firebringer yeah, but who else? I'm townreading too many people, and it's making me think Datisi is clearing his teammates (or one teammate at least)

[furtiveglance]

I can see that I'm getting voted for. I know that Enchant has an open challenge towards me, which I'm considering. So does Drapion I think. If I was Mafia I would have already accepted one, just on the off case I can smoke a town before being voted.

[furtiveglance]

Off chance*

[furtiveglance]

if all of my townreads are town then the POE is incredibly incredibly narrow and that is worrying me but I am not sure what to do

I mean.

Last night confirmed that the entirety of the town council is town. Shea town, Firebringer town, fireisredsir town, Datisi town, me town, Titus town.
The result on LLD is town--given Datisi town, that is absolute.

That's 7/13 as conftown right now.

Which, yes, means the scum pool is quite narrow--but when scum have been denied a seat on the council the entire game, them's the breaks.

There's 3 scum in 6 names.

{Roden, UNOwen, GuiltyLion, ProfessorDrapion, furtiveglance, Enchant}.

We basically have an autowin here.

But that said, I think Drapion is town here.
I lean town on Roden, too.

So that leaves four scum in {UNOwen, GuiltyLion, furtiveglance, Enchant}.
As you are in that pool, you naturally don't like it.

But that pool is absolute.

The seven conftown are conftown.
We have three scum left.
And that's three scum for six slots and you are a candidate.

My preference is furtiveglance > UNOwen = GuiltyLion > Enchant > Roden > ProfessorDrapion.

1) No
2) What, no
3) This makes no sense

Seriously though:
It isn't possible that a result confirms the entire council as Town. I can think of a scenario in which scum could play suboptimally (i.e. lose 1 nightkill) in order to gain towncred, which I'm guessing is what you're talking about (as in the council all agreed to some night action which prevented a death and scum on the council playing optimally would make a different choice).

[furtiveglance]

You know what actually

Challenge: Roden
Challenge: fireisredsir
Challenge: Thestatusquo
Challenge: Unowen
Challenge: GuiltyLion
Challenge: Firebringer
Challenge: Datisi
Challenge: ProfessorDrapion
Challenge: furtiveglance

Accept

[furtiveglance]

Here's an argument and a desperate self pres vote:

Datisi town flip: We have 3 confirmed Town, max 1 dies in the night
Datisi scum flip: We have 1 dead Mafia (good in itself), and we know that he (probably) tried to clear 1 other Mafia (looking at LLD)

Me town flip: wow he was a bad player, get better furtiveglance (even though I literally voted for both flipped scum and put my life on the line TWICE idk what you want from me at this point)
Me scum flip: This would actually be good for town if it was possible because you could probably clear several slots as town (Enchant/Firebringer at least)

VOTE: Datisi

[furtiveglance]

But you should strongly consider my arguments from a mechanical lens and a "what loses us the game" lens and playing around it.

Yes what loses us the game is eliminating a fucking conftown by eliminating Datisi.

Yo

You're not doing much to convince me by swearing and saying 'conftown'.

Your reasons:
1) You townread Datisi by play - fine, that's an opinion
2) 'Last night' - I don't know what happened last night. This will mean nothing to me until you explain what happened and how that makes the whole council town

[furtiveglance]

Lets say we keep dats alive. Dats performs a check UNPROTECTED. Then scum make the choice. Do they allow town!dats to get ANOTHER clear, or go for an already clear/council when they could be protected and we could stop ANOTHER kill. If scum go for dats, good the debate is settled. They won't but its settled. And we get another chance to stop some night kill and dats freely gets another check.

Wait i actually like this one

This could actually be smort yeah. In the meantime who shall we vote that's not me? Roden?

[furtiveglance]

Why are you asking who to push and not just scum hunting

You are my preferred push out of you, GL, Enchant, UNOwen

I'm trying to collaborate

You tried to make me look bad but I'm onto you

VOTE: Roden

[furtiveglance]

Uh huh

Anyway could you answer the question

Was your question am I onto you? I think the answer was yes

[furtiveglance]

Challenge: furtiveglance

I wanna try this first

Accept

[furtiveglance]

Argh

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: Furtiveglance

Let's just wrap this up. No need to over complicate

Yeah just keep it simple and bad. Easy townloss.

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: Furtiveglance

Let's just wrap this up. No need to over complicate

Yeah just keep it simple and bad. Easy townloss.

Why is it only the people on the outs are whining?

On the outs? You mean non-council? Us common folk? Maybe because I'm being told that everyone is clear apart from me and I'm outed Mafia even though I'm Town, and when I ask why I get aired. It's not satisfying

[furtiveglance]

Sorry and I should have added if the gamestate IS fucked, we would benefit greatly from knowing that sooner rather than later

Mastina is grossly exaggerating the downside of flipping Datisi and I'll get to that in a bit once on PC

The gamestate definitely is *ahem* because there's no way it's 3 of GL/Enchant/UNOwen/Roden/Fireisredsir, unless it's exactly Enchant/Fireisredsir/Roden

Datisi cleared at least one of his teammates. If that wasn't the case either he or at least one of his checks would have been smoked by now

[furtiveglance]

I actually think this has been one of my towniest games - I've voted both Mafia, I've challenged multiple times putting my life at risk, I've had controversial opinions, I've been *somewhat* active

Literally don't know what you want from me anymore, unless the meta has gone back to townreading massive wall cases and lists

My other theory is that people on the council tend to trust people on the council, so if you're trusted to be on the council in the first place it just spirals from there and everything gets really stagnant

Either way it's a bummer

[furtiveglance]

Roden about to come in and hammer me

[furtiveglance]

1) The flip that yields the most information and averts disaster in the scenario of scum!Cop is Datisi's flip.

2) There is no way that the entire council is *mechanically* cleared, that's not possible. I as a scum!council member would use the information I got in the way that benefited me the most, INCLUDING falsely clearing myself by playing suboptimally.

[furtiveglance]

Anyway, it would be cool if TSQ randomly executed Mafia out of nowhere at this point

[furtiveglance]

E minus 1

ayo sssshhhh keep it quiet

Do you even think I'm Mafia Titus? You just said let's wrap it up. I don't want to be wrapped up, I'm not a Christmas present

[furtiveglance]

I think there's many erroneous Town votes on me at the moment, I'd like some feedback either now or in postgame as to what I've done wrong in my playstyle this game. I genuinely think I'm really obvious Town (yeah I kind of always do but this game especially, with the challenge mechanic for instance)

[furtiveglance]

Titus posts are so bad it's making me wonder if FB is the pocketed townie and both mastina/Titus were miscleared, possibly because "no way scum!cop clears TWO buddies"

LLD is confirmed town to anyone who thinks Datisi is town, and is making a basic mechanics based argument for why flipping Datisi is correct. Titus should understand the mechanics at play here, yet she instead discredits LLD to dismiss her argument and doesn't seem interested or engaged with the underlying mechanics of it at all. Hard for me to see that as town motivated

Thank you, you need to lead on Datisi tomorrow and not roll with his fake guilty which he will magically find

[furtiveglance]

E minus 1

ayo sssshhhh keep it quiet

Do you even think I'm Mafia Titus? You just said let's wrap it up. I don't want to be wrapped up, I'm not a Christmas present

I have a chicago cubs hat. This game is just on mech solve unless Datisi scum.

We test that world at elo plus 1 day.

Game is just simple follow the cop. I don't need to think. There's no VCA to do. I'm just bored. Not going to help scum though.

No hold on. Let's say at 9 after miscondeming me and UNOwen/whoever is town but sus, Datisi then comes up with a red check on someone like Enchant. What do you do then? Your plan can easily be disrupted by scum antics. And once you do successfully condemn a scum!Datisi, that doesn't out the remaining Mafia at all. At least one teammate is probably green checked right now, but how many? That would be insane confusion in late game. It's better to change up the Cop now, so we can either confirm our current green checks or get a Mafia out.

[furtiveglance]

New Cop pls

VOTE: Datisi

[furtiveglance]

i think if we're in the datisi town world we win and this doesn't really hurt us that much

i think the datisi scum world potentially becomes a concern sooner than i originally thought

the biggest point for me is that none of the checks have died. i think scum would have to basically be throwing in a town datisi world for that to happen

That's the rub though, I don't have a good response to what scum are doing beyond raging.

Man's not raging, man's legit baffled as to why certain man are scumreading man

[furtiveglance]

Roden about to come in and hammer me

I'm not. I'm not shading you with my questions, I'm genuinely trying to understand what you're doing. Idk if you haven't been keeping up with my posts but I've been heavily suspecting Datisi for a few days now, I have way more reason to vote him than you. The only reason I haven't is because I want to be confident with my vote.

Some of the things you've said has given me pause, but at the same time idk what you're doing to further your wincon here if you're scum. It's the same issue I had with Dwlee and why I thought they were probably just town at first.

Can you not see town motivation behind trying to either confirm 3 players or get a mafia out? Neither the Cop nor their 3 green checks have been killed, I don't know if any of them have been targeted. This is suspect. I can't claim to strongly scumread Datisi, I think they're possibly scum by play after their Lukewarm interactions but the strongest argument is the mechanical one.

[furtiveglance]

I actually think this has been one of my towniest games - I've voted both Mafia, I've challenged multiple times putting my life at risk, I've had controversial opinions, I've been *somewhat* active

Literally don't know what you want from me anymore, unless the meta has gone back to townreading massive wall cases and lists

My other theory is that people on the council tend to trust people on the council, so if you're trusted to be on the council in the first place it just spirals from there and everything gets really stagnant

Either way it's a bummer

This is also just something I agree with, like as a mood. I keep going through bouts of losing interest in this game because it's been pretty clear the default game state wasn't going away i.e. everyone not in power is PoE'd and we're all just counting down the days until we get guillotine'd. From my perspective it feels like we're just fodder until it gets to the point that the council can play in ELO by themselves. It's just not fun, but no one in the PoE wants to do anything about it because of the "anyone but me" mentality.

I think it's been a new development in this day phase really, with mastina's list mainly what I'm thinking of. Have you seen it before then?

[furtiveglance]

datisi I know you saw this because you posted in small council. What are your thoughts on this?

how

rude

i have skimmed, and by skimmed i mean *heavily* skimmed. i don't intend to fight my yeet too hard because i understand whoever wants my death is just gonna be parroting the mechanical argument ad nauseam. but i do sense that there is very strong scum motivation to getting me yeeted, and i intend to reread those pushing for it to try to leave y'all in a better position after i die. i will get to doing that in a lil' bit, about to eat dinner

Datisi, if you are indeed town, I apologise for the inconvenience, but can you not see the advantage that even your town flip would give us, with 3 confirmed town?

[furtiveglance]

i did not acknowledge that because... i don't think it's town, AT ALL. i have said before that i feel like scum are trying to nudge in the direction of my yeet, and furtive has had a will-i-won't-i position on my alignment for like, the entire game. there was talk about having to flip me. he has offered zero reads on lld.

so what is supposed to be townie about "hehe guys so like, datisi cop is weird right?", especially when they know they're under fire?

and didn't they say themselves they'd accept a duel or did i imagine that

I've been back and forth on you yes. Even now I'm not sure. It's entirely possible that we're both town. But in that scenario, mechanically speaking, Town is helped far more by eliminating you. Can you agree at least to this premise?

[furtiveglance]

I don't think scum have their entire wincon ride on the hope we paranoia mis-elim the single most difficult-to-elim player in the game.

well you see, i definitely am difficult to eliminate by dayplay, yes

interestingly enough, nobody is making dayplay arguments for my death. i wonder why.

If you're town, I do have sympathy with your situation. But we need the information that the scumteam has denied us by avoiding you and all of your checks. Your flip gives us that

[furtiveglance]

no, i don't agree

in the world where we flip you and you're town, i am not getting protected. so scum has a choice. either shoot me tonight (conftowns my checks, loses us a cop check from n5, BUT it saves a mislim that would've been used on me) or shoot someone else (lets me get another check, if it's red i duel with my red check twice and then i get yeeted most likely if both duels fail, if it's green i still duel and then die)

But flipping you and appointing someone else gives us the same result if you consider your exit from the game inevitable in either scenario, and I get to live.

[furtiveglance]

and I get to live

i am not of the thought that this is in town's interest

But I was talking about the scenario in which we're both town, which I thought we were both entertaining. Or do you mean even though I'm town I'm still not good for town

[furtiveglance]

assuming i'm flipped today, there is no way to tomorrow tell whether we're in the "datisi and furtive were tvt, don't flip furtive" or "datisi and furtive were tvs, flip furtive" world. so even though it would obviously be good to not flip you if you're town... that's not how the math works out.

Fine. Well I still think that even your town flip is very useful for town, if it will be a town flip. My town flip wouldn't be useful at all

[furtiveglance]

LLD is under impression that ur scum flip clears furtive here.
Which I don't think it is.
I don't see why scum!dats wouldn't be bussing furtive here.

Reach for the stars my dude

[furtiveglance]

what even is ur read on me these days.
i haven't followed it in awhile, r u townreading me or what.
u don't treat me like scum so what is it

You're in my poe yeah. I don't see a town motivation to the way you withhold information, when I can't think of anything the mafia shouldn't know. Your whole demeanour is sus. I don't think my last post treated you like you were town, I called your me/Datisi S/S theory a massive reach, that's more shade than anything else

[furtiveglance]

what even is ur read on me these days.
i haven't followed it in awhile, r u townreading me or what.
u don't treat me like scum so what is it

You're in my poe yeah. I don't see a town motivation to the way you withhold information, when I can't think of anything the mafia shouldn't know. Your whole demeanour is sus. I don't think my last post treated you like you were town, I called your me/Datisi S/S theory a massive reach, that's more shade than anything else

i would call ur last post calling me a moron. Which to me sounds like u townread me not sus read me. But okay

I associate reaching more with scum coming up with unreasonable theories

[furtiveglance]

Do we have a deal?

No.

Vice-versa, sure--eliminate furtive today and IF he flips town I'll begrudgingly go after Datisi tomorrow. (It's fucking stupid, mind you. But I would.)

But I prefer the option that has a chance of leaving the second half unnecessary.

A Datisi flip is always town and always means we still have to eliminate furtiveglance.
A furtiveglance flip has a high chance of being scum and instantly means we don't need to eliminate Datisi.

I’m down with this.
As long as we eliminate Dat tomorrow on the green flip.

VOTE: Furtive

You keep saying I'm town. You know you don't have to vote for me. If you want to eliminate Datisi, that is now a very real possibility.

[furtiveglance]

First

[furtiveglance]

I have serious questions about the Doctor and the Master of Coin. Why was fireisredsir allowed to die?

As for the King presumably being overthrown, I townread them after Dannflor's flip, and would have protected had I been on the Kingsguard. I protected the night before last night, when I was on a 4-player Kingsguard. Mastina as King worries me, as she tried to clear the entire council which was wrong. This has still yet to be explained to me. Both Firebringer and Mastina have serious questions to answer today, we need full transparency about the failures of the Council

[furtiveglance]

So there was definitely scum on the kingsguard then.

Were you on the Kingsguard last night?

[furtiveglance]

edit: Mastina as Queen

[furtiveglance]

Kingsguard was:

-GL
-LLD
-Titus
-UNOwen

we each voted to overthrow, thinking a double flip would certainly net at least one scum

I imagine scum is Titus - was "cleared" by Datisi, was dismissive of idea of flipping Datisi yesterday. I voted to overthrow in part to see if Titus would be down to flip both Shea/Mastina, taking it as a sign of towniness if she did.

Correct play here is to lim Mastina as it's indisputable that whoever is scum on the kingsguard did not want her to be flipped along with Shea. She also should have protected fireisred yesterday

It's probably just Titus+Mastina. for as much as FB was defending Datisi yesterday, I don't think he was actually aware of Datisi's alignment, and his thought process was understandable, much moreso than Titus'

VOTE: Mastina

Double flip? Does that mean definitely that a Mafia on the Kingsguard stopped Mastina from dying? Or could Mastina have had a health potion?

[furtiveglance]

I'm down to try and hammer Mastina before she gets on and executes, sorry if that seems harsh but it seems like scum wanted to keep her alive

VOTE: Mastina

[furtiveglance]

Kingsguard was:

-GL
-LLD
-Titus
-UNOwen

we each voted to overthrow, thinking a double flip would certainly net at least one scum

I imagine scum is Titus - was "cleared" by Datisi, was dismissive of idea of flipping Datisi yesterday. I voted to overthrow in part to see if Titus would be down to flip both Shea/Mastina, taking it as a sign of towniness if she did.

Correct play here is to lim Mastina as it's indisputable that whoever is scum on the kingsguard did not want her to be flipped along with Shea. She also should have protected fireisred yesterday

It's probably just Titus+Mastina. for as much as FB was defending Datisi yesterday, I don't think he was actually aware of Datisi's alignment, and his thought process was understandable, much moreso than Titus'

VOTE: Mastina

I sorta don't think Datisi would have cleared more than one Mafia though, do you?

[furtiveglance]

Chill.

If mastina is scum, she just uses exe.

Not if we hammer her first!

[furtiveglance]

Cmon errbody

[furtiveglance]

I think the paranoia scenario is LLD scum, but I overall doubt yesterday goes the way it did with scum!LLD. She could have made her position on flipping Datisi known without doing the late day lobbying that she did to attempt to get Drapion and Firebringer and Titus on board. She also encouraged Shea to execute Datisi. I don't think she needed to make that extra effort if she were scum, the ideal case for her would be a furtive miselim and

then

to flip Datisi.

my only doubt here is that clearing town!LLD was a bad move for scum and I don't want to completely assume scum are just playing badly. but it's overall plausible that they didn't anticipate the momentum pivoting to limming Datisi and thought they could get away with trying to pocket LLD.

@furtive - why not? I don't see why Datisi wouldn't clear multiple mafia, there's so much WIFOM on his flip that it's not necessarily a bad move to do so. and securing council positions is huge

My big one on play is ProfessorDrapion, their turnaround yesterday was disgusting

[furtiveglance]

Do we get to elect a new Monarch? I'd assume that's what would happen tomorrow

[furtiveglance]

I was about to say LLD could have bussed Datisi but I don't think that would have been a smart move actually so I'm gonna rule it out in my mind