Cyclic Experimentation Set x02 - [Game Over]

[MagnaofIllusion]

Finally started. I see the passing discussion has already started and we have input on it. Good. We still are going to do so because it brings information to Town that can be analyzed long term.

I very much doubt scum have an ability that eliminates the death clause in passing to a Partner. That would border on bastard modding. Also in Cyclical X01 the only player with any abilities other than a Factional Nightkill that was not cyclical was the Serial Killer. I can’t see scum having a non-cyclical power based on the set-up experience I have with Kunkstar’s game.

Much more likely we probably are facing two smaller Mafia factions as opposed to a single Mafia this game. It reduces PoE possibilies. That said the passing mechanic is too useful for Town to not do it.

Also we are not going to claim all Powers at the outset. No reason to until later in the game. Abilities can be reconstructed through the passing chain later. There may be exceptions to this (Treestump is one form the first game as it is a perfect Mafia test tool) but we will deal with those as the day goes on.

Official Passing Strategy

–

The Cyclic Claim process is a two step process.

Step 1 - The Day after you cycle a power at Night in your first post of the day you claim to have passed a power. You do NOT claim the Power or who you passed it to.

Step 2 - The second Day after you cycle a power at Night in your first post of the day you claim who you passed the power in Step 1 to. In the case of possessing multiple powers you claim every person you passed the to. You do NOT claim what the power was.

This process is ongoing and can result in multiple claims in any given day. For example -

Day 2 everyone claims if they passed a power Night 1.
Day 3 everyone claims who they passed their power to Night 1 and if they passed a power Night 2.
Day 4 everyone claims who they passed their power to Night 2 and if they passed a power Night 3.
And so forth.

[MagnaofIllusion]

On the outset the following players fall into my ‘Likely Lurker or VI” pool who I will not hesitate to vote for at a deadline if we need a lynch and they show no signs of playing in a more Pro-Town manner – EC, SlySly, Fourseen.

They have either proven to lurk as scum, lurk and provide no content regardless of alignment, or play in a manner that is borders on ‘Playing against Wincondition’.

I do like that the list is pretty short to start.

Also fair warning – Any player that sends a powerful Pro-Town ability (Doc / Investigation / Vig) out of play by ‘forgetting’ to send a cycling choice is to be lynched immediately. I put this out there so no-one can claim “oops, I forgot”.

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@Magister

– Is that a post restriction?

@MOD

– If it is I now hate you

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@Implosion

– Why did you specifically add claiming Powers to my plan from Cyclical X01 when it was not part of the original plan?

Anti-virus wound up being used kind of... awfully. Scum redirected it to theirself and killed an apathetic parama-doctor.

It was Anti-Town last game since Diddin publicly claimed it and allowed scum to hijack said ability. The ability itself is not inherently Anti-Town in the slightest.

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It doesn't demand any claiming at the present so it is okay to tentatively agree

while we gametheory in private.

Please explain what you mean by the bolded.

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plans are for the weak

unvote
vote: implosion

let's quick-lynch up in this bitch

Yes, why implement a plan that proved to be instrumental in Town winning the last game and likely will be very helpful this one …

VOTE: Crypto

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@EC

– Of you list of Anti-Town abilities the only one that makes sense to immediately claim is Tree-stump and we can’t lynch said player. If the Virus makes another appearance it will most likely ‘take care of itsef’, so to speak.

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Am I right or am I missing something?

Scum being able to ‘track’ abilities isn’t really that much of a threat. We only claim who we passed to after the receiver has passed it themselves. Scum passing to Town and NKing them is a risk for them as the ability that passes to the Inactive Zone / Dead Zone (or whatever it is) very likely can be tracked back to them.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I also typically give off a scummy vibe in my posts according to a lot of people I play with, apparently something about the way I talk.

Indulge me here Toog – the only times I recall you getting significant pressure and getting lynched Day 1 you were scum. Do you have any Town games where that happened?

Wrong type of loose canon. I don't just vote to vote, but I will withhold information, or manipulate, when information is trying to be organized. Check out my wiki on DEFCON 3.0 and Metropolis to see examples.

I’d like you to specifically state whether you object to the claim passing or actively try to undermine it (by not being forthcoming or truthful) to make things “more interesting” as you put it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

i think magnaofillusion knows better than to vote me

Yeah, you probably need to re-adjust your perceptions. You've presented what at this early stage is the scummiest post I have seen so far. Thus you get a vote. Pretty simple process.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm not an expert on crypto's play, I've never played with him before, but it certainly seems to me that a), b), and c)

were all part of RVS, and therefore not really to be taken seriously.

In d), he jumped on the warriormode "wagon", which consisted of Magistar Ludi and nobody else, because warrior's reasoning was nonexistent.

The bolded I read as similar to Junpei’s assertion that RVS is useless. I disagree in that RVS votes are part of the game and often can be used to find relational tells.

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enlighten me.

I already did. Did you not read my post where I voted for you? You position that the plan is stupid and implosion should be quicklynched for mentioning it (regardless whether it was RVS or teehee reaction testing or whatever you want to call it) was the closest thing to scummy play at that point.

Your recent play calling out others for not providing reasons while you engage in the exact same behavior has so far provided me with sufficent reason not to move it.

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DEFCON 2 Me v. Scum Fate, Fate won that battle.

Here is a list of every game that I have been called scum in and lynched (or endgamed) at some point, though I was town:

Being lynched outside of Day 1 as Town isn’t really relevant. It pretty much happens to every Town player who plays Mafia.

Saying your playstyle generates scum-reads as you did is Anti-Town. If you are Town you’ve only given scum an open invitation to attack you by self-admitting you are naturally ‘scummy’. If you are scum it’s a pre-emptive measure to say “I’m not scummy, it’s my playstyle” which is a complete cop-out. Neither serves Town’s interests.

I haven't yet determined if I find the system advantageous to town or not.

Did you read Cyclical X01? Because regardless of how the Mod has crafted the set-up to reduce the effectiveness clearly the plan does not give scum any additional information and helps Town via PoE and helping to establish reads based on the claimed pass targets. I’m not quite sure what else you might have to say on the issue.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yeah, warriormode's initial post was very worthy of a vote. I would say that crypto sprinting away from a warrior vote looks suspicious if warrior ever flips scum. (Its also possible crypto is trying to go with the idea that a lot of posts equal town, and is just posting high volumes to this end.)

Please elaborate on why his initial post was vote-worthy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

where did i give that reason for my quick lynch suggestion? do you think my quick lynch suggestion was serious? have you ever come across the word facetious before? do you know what the opposite of serious is?

do you think that experienced mafiosi would attempt blatantly anti-town play?

Of course I understand what being facetious is. I’m not some 12 year old you can make cower with rapid posting and empty questions like these.

The bolded is telling. Of course they would if they thought they could get away with it. Players like Fate and Sociopath specialize in it. Appealing to the WIFOM this early on seems like a pretty over-the-top reaction to what is minimal pressure at this stage.

that's a blatant misconstruction. i've done no "calling out." i ask questions to strengthen my understanding of other players' thought processes. that's how i get reads. you're misattributing a critical or threatening quality to my probing when you.

Asking people to justify their votes is ‘callling out’ as I put it. And you have clearly done that. Examples –

is this vote reasoned or random

so you've established that i move quickly and unpredictably.

why are you voting me?

do you actually think i am mafia or is this a policy-type vote? if you think i am mafia, then what do you think is the secret scum agenda driving my play?

You are welcome to get reads however you wish. If that process I find scummy I’ll vote / inquire of you. That’s how Mafia works. In this case you ask others to provide reasoning but yourself don't. That's low level Cognitive Dissonance.

Let me ask you – looking back at ISO 7 you specifically ask Warriormode if his vote was ramdom or serious and then three posts later vote him agreeing that it was scummy before he even responded. Why question him if you’ve already drawn the conclusion within minutes?

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Would you count Mass Effect Mafia, MoI? You thought I was scum Day 1 there, I lived through the Day and you tried to swap me with you you hoping I would eat the bullet... which ended quite humorously if I recall correctly.

Given I didn’t play in Mass Effect Mafia I’m not sure what you are getting at here. Please explain.

[MagnaofIllusion]

his vote was scummy. it was understandable. i found the real substance of his post intuitively scummy.

Why question him then?

And why was it scummy? Elaborate.

"i don't lynch people for behavior that is actually scummy. i lynch people whose peculiar scumhunting methods i find instinctively suspicious, probably because they feel foreign to me. embrace your irrationality, fellas. that's what i do. and i get by!" – magnaofillusion, paraphrased

More empty rhetoric. Thanks, I’m getting a good idea at your playstyle already and it will help me develop a solid read on you as the game progresses.

[MagnaofIllusion]

i said it was intuitively scummy. that indicates that i don't have strong logical reasons. but i found his post rushed and uncurious (bordering on bored) and too minimalist.

If you can explain how you think any of these attributes (rushed, uncurious, too minimalist) actually applies or how they are scummy please do so. If the answer is "Gut / Intuitive" don't worry about responding.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Having not played in the first game, is this strategy supposed to be some balance between being able to figure out the setup and not giving the scum too much information? I don't see any fundamental problem with it, I just don't understand the reasoning behind the details of what and when things get revealed. Also, how is it supposed to deal with limited-shot powers that can disappear, or what happens when somebody's power gets revealed earlier? If I'm undermining the strategy by asking, feel free to say so and I'll drop it.

The purpose of the plan is to establish PoE relational links as powers are passed that enable the Town late-game to narrow down candidates for scum and thus focus their other scum-hunting focus. It certainly doesn’t replace traditional scum-hunting at all, it supplements it.

Also it keeps scum honest as they can’t pretend to pass items or to pretend not to get powers when they are passed. Scum don’t want a 1 v 1.

We aren’t looking to bust the set-up. That will come in time as claims are made.

The beauty of the system is that Cops / Trackers / Insert your favorite information role here can immediately claim their Guilty results in the Day after they get them and not worry about scum knowing who to kill to take said role out of circulation. That is the express reason why ‘who you passed to’ is claimed in the second step, not the first.

As for limited shot powers – the last game didn’t have very many of them. It also had the ability for players to recover powers from the inactive areas so if scum wanted to purposefully not pass an Pro-Town power to inactivate it and claim it was limited shot then they have a strong likelihood of being caught.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Toog

– why not vote for someone right now. That’s be great! At least until we get a vote-count. Thanks in advance!

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@Sinestro

– Do you plan to sign your posts or just let the clear differentiation between Andy and Hiplop tell the tale?

eh if you were to place your vote right now, who would it be on? (assuming it was a hammer vote ?) @toog but other can reply if they REALLY want

Why don’t you answer yourself …that’d be great!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why is everyone so interested in me putting a vote on someone?

Because I have made precognitive skills. Just do it Mr. 'I Like to Do My Own Thing Because I'm Cool Like That Even Thought It is Anti-Town'

[MagnaofIllusion]

Fine

Vote: Toogeloo

But just until next vote count (or I see something better).

Good enough. Thanks.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna, why did you fail to respond to Crypto's #101?

Because I've already answered it. I don't jump through hoops repeating myself. We've already discussed my read on him and the game hasn't gone anywhere significant in the meantime.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOD - is the latest vote count accurate for all votes on page 6?

~The current version should be. Missed Junpei's vote in the original.

[MagnaofIllusion]

UNVOTE: Crypto
VOTE: Stringer Bell

I think the observations being made regarding the following are very valid scum-hunting regarding Stringer –

1. His not having a place for his vote after unvoting RVS.
2. His ‘worry’ about the speed of the Warrior wagon but eagerness to jump on the Fourseen wagon.

I didn't want to lynch warrior because I didn't think that the case against him was very good, and a quicklynch on a mediocre case is not a good start to a game.

I still don't think that quicklynching D1 is a good idea, but in this game you rarely get thrown the two posts that Fourseen threw us.

Um, what is the case on fourseen, other than he is a clear VI / troll (as I pointed out with my list early on)?

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Does anyone have any Drunken Piper previous experience? His single post where he jumps on the Warriormode wagon and avoids commenting on anything else I find suspect.

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So you were hesitant to wagon warriormode because you didn't like the speed of it, then you easily hop onto the quickly growing FC wagon? Why the difference?

I wouldn't mind a diddin lynch right now either, but I'm interested to see where this FC wagon leads us.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: FourseenCircumstance

Um, whut? You correctly identify Stringer’s behavior as inconsistent and scummy. What line of thinking in your mind looks at the following sets of circumstances and votes fourseen?

String hesitant to vote warriormode
String jumps on fourseen

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MoI: Gametheory in private as in, by yourself, in your head, in notepad, or whatever you use, theory about the game. We aren't about to clog the thread up with pages of people fleshing out ideas. If you have a good idea after working on it solo, post it, but if I posted everything I thought about in regards to gametheory, you'd be mad.

I don’t see any reason to devote a single bit of more time at this stage on gametheory. The plan is more or less set and we should be focusing on scum-hunting for the rest of the day.

vote fourseencircumstance

Not dealing with this. This ends now.

Let me get this straight – you early Day 1 admonish diddin for saying fourseen was effectively a great policy lynch based on TV Mafia. You said you didn’t want Day 1 derailed.

Then fourseen shows up and posts in a manner consistent with his play there (where he was Town) and you immediately jump on him saying “Die, this ends now”?

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I fail to see how treestump isn't generally negative for town.

The Treestump is the perfect tool to test possible scum partners via passing in the early game (Days 1 -3/4, pending on outcomes). By directing the Treestump from scummiest player to scummiest player we can possibly catch a Mafia death via the established rules.

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Just because the scumchat club says you are playing anti-town, doesn't mean you are. I've been strung up incorrectly so many times by scumchatters when I was right and they were wrong, I've lost count.

This is a terrible response. Why, when responding to that information I provided, did you jump to the ‘scumchat club’ as your response?

1. I have never used scumchat. I have no idea who the ‘scumchat club’ is.
2. My observation is based on your scum play in Plum’s LOTR Mafia.

MoI's plan sounds safe for the town and better to me than implosion's. Implosion's plan, to me, seems to assume that this game is going to be just like the x1. I have played in many sequel games and the mechanics have always changed greatly forcing the need for a different strategy than what did or would have won the first one.

I also don’t like this at all. It demonstrates that SlySly doesn’t have an understanding of what he commenting on.

1. My plan is exactly the same plan I proposed in X01. No variation.
2. Implosion’s plan is basically mine except he adds claiming of Powers which I think we don’t need at this juncture.

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I'm not trying to be scummy. In fact I'm one of the most proactive players right now. Take two.

If you want to split hairs that’s fine. You previously said you were being specifically Anti-Town and tried to WIFOM “Why would scum do this”. Also, as you put it,

1. Active ≠ town.
2. Town ≠ right.

I'm voting him because his first post felt off. His second was bad as well. I was asked to shed light on my intuition and I complied. I gave fair warning that it was an intuitive read so don't expect me to entertain your interrogation.

So you felt it was ‘off’ due to those elements that I asked you to elaborate on and in the end the ‘being rushed’ and ‘lacking curiosity’ are all just intuition.

Your vote isn’t better than Diddin’s BTW. It was worse. Diddin at least cobbled together something of an actual passable scum motivation behind his. He did it in a weak manner, but at least he did it in a credible fashion. "Town Enthusiasm" is crap.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Then wtf are you talking about? I was on a terrible team and still had a chance to win had the mod not screwed us in the night. I played to win and I didn't lurk. Let's see you overcome zwet and arudeboy. Who were you in that game? gandalf?

I was part of the MemoriaEsponia Hydra. Yes, you did lurk pretty strong and I identified you as likely scum Day 1. We can review the Dead QT for support for that if you wish.

Not sure what your playing to win comment means. I said I saw you lurk as scum in LOTR Mafia. That's why you are on the list, not for listed VI element.

I see you don't address the scum-chat angle at all. Again, why bring that up?

I haven't read x01, nor do I plan to. Implosion's plan was presented as a plan that worked in x01 and also seemed to not take into account that scum are able to pass powers amongst themselves in this game.

Your response is pretty weak here. Scum still die if they pass between themselves.

Again, why do you differentiate between our plans as one being effective because it is different from X01 when both are the same plan as X01, minus the initial Power claiming in Implosions?

[MagnaofIllusion]

The part of my post that you didn't quote explains why I voted FC. Do you think FC's posts are anything other than obvious backtracking after being called out for a weak vote?

Of course it is obvious backtracking. Did you miss the part where I specifically called out, before any of his posts, fourseen as a clear VI? He is. I don't see what he did as very scum motivated.

If he wanted to drop an easy vote he could have just wagonned Warrior. Warrior had more votes and hopping on that wagon wouldn't get significant flak. What fourseen did was drop a vote on Crypto who is not a newb like warrior and much more active in the thread. I can't see much reasoning for that from fourseen-scum unless fourseen and warrior are aligned together.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna, it seems obvious that this fourseen wagon is the counterwagon on legitimate scum warriormode.

Magister, it seems obvious that there are two wagons. Without flips are you asserting that here is no possibility they aren't on two Newbs / VIs displaying bad gameplay as opposed to scummy gameplay?

You've never elaborated on why warrior is scum that I can recall. Link me or elaborate please.

What do you think of Stringer?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think that is a correct assessment. Just iso warrior, should be self evident. Stringer I thought was early town but I liked your few points against him. The fact he hoped on the fourseen wagon while dodging the warrior wagon strengthens my conviction in warrior scum.

No, "ISO it's self-evident" doesn't cut it.

Explain your warrior read with support.

[MagnaofIllusion]

There's nothing to clarify.

He's right. Crypto is one of those players who believes that Cognitive Dissonance and Inconsistency are just long words as opposed to signs of conflicted play, which is much more likely to come from scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna, the fact that you are still arguing that I'm scum is pretty hilarious. Your ego gets in the way of stepping back and looking at other people's play. You are currently arguing that I'm scum because I have a play style with which you disagree. Get a grip.

Where I am arguing you are scum again? I'm not voting you as significantly scummy play has actually occured and I've moved my votes there. I'm more letting people know you are just generally bad.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Man, you can't even read your own posts can you?

No, you moron. It means that you play in a specific Anti-Town herp a derp playstyle manner where you specificly go out of your way to emulate scummy play regardless of alignment. Your "read me some other way" is a clear indication of this.

It means your play is going to be scummy and bad regardless. Even if you are Town odds are you will not help out Town long Term.

No go sit and the corner and stop yapping like a Tea-cup Poodle. Some of us have scum to catch.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also, the wagon on Fourseen is far from justified. While Warrior has commited some legitimately scummy play, and an attempted lynch on him is logical, the logic on Fourseen that I'm seeing is "he's bad." Can I just send a reminder that our goal is to lynch the scum and not the town? If you believe that Fourseen has scumtold, then go ahead. But I'm seeing most of the players voting him because "he's playing bad" which both implies a belief that he's town who simply needs to get out of the way, or an attempt to PL in favor of actually hunting for mafia with your vote.

Please provide your case as to why Warrior is scummy. You haven’t provided any more reasons than Magister.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Can we get back on Warrior please? Or at least off of Unforseen until he comes back with other contribution? Thanks.

@MATT - Again since you apparently missed it last time - detail why Warrior is scum. You know, the same request you had to Magister.

In your next post.

I've bolded it so you can't possibly miss it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Note that in all the explosion of play that Toogelo has faded into the background. He continues to provide no reads or positive input.

Whispersilk and Furc have yet to post at all.

All three of these players need actual input soon.

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crypto is angry town. He may be hypocritical about revealing reads and such, but I still think he's town. I stand by my Fourseen vote, I haven't seen anything from him to make him less scummy than he was, nor anything from anyone else that has been scummier than Fourseen.

This is the kind of minimalist posting response I would expect from scum with a little bit of pressure while others are under heavier scrutiny – stick to stated position, add a weak ‘read’. Smacks of trying to stay as low profile as possible.

Stringer is a good Vote!!!

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The recent votes by EC and Sinstro for Fourseen stink to high heaven and I’m highlighting them here. One of these two is probably scum of some flavor ...

B) It was the link between Diddin and Fourseen that raised my attention.

Oh, so your basis for voting for Fourseen is the diddin link. Even thought diddin actually hasn’t flipped. So despite calling Fourseen VI that could go either way you joined the wagon based on relational information that doesn’t yet exist conclusively re: Alignment.

Why are you not voting diddin (who you clearly think is scum)?

I'm going to assume he's a VI.
Is he? Do you just have personal history (like diddin?) or what because it isn't shotty so I don't know about him.
Your response just sounds like "LYNCH THE IDIOT" so I wanted some clarification.

I'm thinking give-the-VI-theBotD but if there's significant meta then...

Vote: FourseenCircumstance
Other notorious scumreads are listed above.
Would you rather have a comprehensive list of reads from us?

This is bad. Both Junpei and myself have clearly explained that Fourseen is a Shotty style VI. There’s not “significant meta” that says he is scum. Junpei is just basically shouting “LYNCH THE IDIOT”. This vote screams of 'just browsing' and not actually reading the game content.

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I feel like a huge slacker in here. Most of the players in here have a lot more experience than me and every time I see something suspicious, someone else has already brought it up.

Crypto is working his way back to town IMO. He' active and stirring things up. I'm a big fan of that generally.
MasterLudi is rubbing me the wrong way. Refusing to explain tells is annoying.
Stringer is mildly suspicious... but I'm not sure it's very much.

Scumdar goes Ding!!!!

Cognititve Dissonance? Check – crypto is working back towards Town due to activity but Magister is ‘rubbing the wrong way’ for not giving reads. Crypto is also blatantly not giving reads. Yet crypto isn't also rubbing you the wrong way and is in fact becoming more Town as his 'wagon' disappates.

Fence-sitting on Stringer? Check – until we have a flip not conclusive but worth bringing up.

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It's the fact that he changed his mind right after someone said it was scummy that he unvoted warriormode that was bad, not changing his mind in general.

Crypto isn’t getting lynched today, despite the fact that he’s dead weight. Stringer has just commited the same move – he unvoted his RVS vote without re-voting, got called out on it, and immediately jumped on the nearest easy place to park a vote – Fourseen.

Vote Stringer with me diddin.

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Come on MoI, you were in TV Mafia, you saw what Fourseen did, you should be saying this to him as well!

The difference is that I believe Fourseen literally is a Shotty style VI who isn’t capable of better. I have no evidence to supports that Crypto is a VI.

Also he has stated no real reads or given any real comments, he has backpedaled in the above post on the only opinion he had. It's time to get rid of this guy now. He is very scummy already and he is just going to annoy me with his awful posts and people going "VI TOO SCUMMY TO BE SCUM!". If we encourage this type of play by letting him live, then it will spread. He dies now.

Nope. Sorry, no. I’ve already explained why Fourseen’s tactics don’t come from a VI-scum mindset. If you’d like to show where I am wrong in my line of thinking feel free. But unless you can show how his stupid play benefits scum (no-one so far has, just that he’s bad which is beyond dispute) I’m not convinced.

Take for example these two back to back posts –

ENOUGH............

After I am done this Engineering Homework I will post my thoughts....

While I got a sec, Ethereal why did you vote for me immidiately after you stated that I am probably dumb town, shouldn't you be voting for someone you truly find scummy?

So Fourseen is under great pressure. He says he will come back with his thoughts after homework. His next post is THAT? That’s his ‘thoughts’ on the game? That doesn’t read a scum wanting to stave off his lynch. That reads as just a Town VI. If he flips scum then egg on my face. But specifically stating you would be back with your thoughts and immediately failing to produce while near lynch isn't the thing of scum play. Scum who don't actually want to provide comment don't actually promise to and fail. They just lurk.

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Some people are bordering on ridiculous. There's any number of reasons to withhold reasoning. At the end of the day, who votes for whom and when is much more important than how or why

Nope, not in the least. Without giving reasons the when and how you voted are going to be interpreted in the least beneficial light by other Town. Being a good Town player is about transparency. Your job is to let other Town (if you are Town yourself) know why you suspect someone and making it a reason to join the wagon.

Otherwise your ‘hidden’ read can’t really give you any credit with other players and leaves you open for accusations of Bussing if you are Town.

Now if you are scum … feel free to continue to take this position. You get no credit for good lynches and bad lynches you champion make your likelihood of being lynched increase.

On Magna. Magna voting for stringer while not joining the warrior wagon sounded off a few alarm bells for me as well, though i'm not sure what to make of it. Stringer read townish to me in his first few posts, and a little worse recently, but after evaluation, certainly nothing to put a vote down on. Considering magna is opposed to stringer's voting for fourseen It would have made sense to join the opposing large warrior wagon, or comment about the state of the rest of the forseen wagon. He appears to be trying to kick start a little stringer wagon to both dodge the terribad forseen wagon and avoid talking too much about warrior.

After reading this I smell undermining. I’ll explain to you again why Stringer is scummy.

He unvoted warrior because it was ‘RVS’ without revoting. At the stage this happened we were far enough into the game that he had plenty of places to place a vote. He’s called crypto Town. Why not place a vote and pressure the person on crypto’s wagon who he thinks had the worst reasoning? If he was worried about the speed of the Warrior wagon why not look into the vote on said wagon that in his mind was the weakest?

He then receives comments saying that move is scummy (which were correct). His reaction was to jump at the first easy wagon he could – and low and behold perennial VI Fourseen delivers with classic dumb play.

When called to explain his vote Stringer’s explanation is that “He’s the worst thing around”. That’s basically not an answer – he can’t actually show why he is scummy but just calls him so. And despite the fact that Fourseen's wagon exploded much faster than warrior's he has no concerns about the speed. Cognitive Dissonance right there.

None of this is driven by reads on warrior or Fourseen. I don't currently read either as having scum intent in their posting.

If you are Town you’ve already decided that warrior is scum and everything you see is being colored by that pre-flip. Aka Tunneling. I don’t particulary find your case compelling. I don’t see specific scum intent in his plan review that you can’t also apply to about 75% of the posters in the game. Your wagon reasoning is dependant on unknown alignments. I can also probably find many games where multiple Town wagons appeared Day 1 and your line of thinking (obvious counterwagon) led to mislynches down the line.

--

Magna- your plan is good and all though why, in Step 2, do you claim who you passed the power to? Is that just to confirm the town via not being scumbags passing to each other?

It’s to forge links for late game, in the case that a pass results in a death, and to put scum stupid enough to lie about their passing in a 1v1 with Town who can say “No, you didn’t pass that to me”.

--

MOI, this is the part that bothered me. Since it appears to have worked so well in the first game, I seriously doubt the mod would run a sequel that would be so easily broken by the same methodology.

Again, this doesn’t matter. The benefits of information to Town a significant enough even with the expected / known Mod adjustments that there is no reason to call it into question just because it worked before. Town gets information they can use to an unknown degree, scum don’t get helped.

Your little Appeal to Fear “Oh my, it may not clear people and result in WIFOM” is noted.

@SlySLy

– I really want to know who you think is scum. I await your post.

[MagnaofIllusion]

should we claim who we passed to, or used our abilities on?

Go read my post early in my ISO that details the plan.

Day 2 we claim ONLY if we passed an ability N1.
Day 3 we claim who we passed to N1 and if we passed an ability N2.

For the moment we DO NOT claim in any shape what that ability is.

And in regards to what I think you are talking about - No, that's non-standard and of no use to the Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I used my ability on Crypto. I remember not claiming abilities in terms of what they were/who I passed to until d2
I am assuming town will repeat that, as it was beneficial last game for us

I did have a PR night one, though, as I softclaimed in the previous post

We haven't had N1 yet ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

I am living up to my personality then. Day 1 is my day to get the most motivational reads. I am not an aggressive player.

Also, I have already given two town reads and a scum read (plus I have a few more I am keeping an eye on).

I really don't care if you are living up to some stated personality or not.

Your lack of commentary about the goings on in thread is not Pro-Town.

You are not a unique and special Snowflake.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey Furc - please comment on the fact that you claimed to pass N1 when we haven't even had a N1 yet. Thanks!

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be LA from 4pm EST today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

--

You seem to be misrepresenting what I said. Not giving reads <> not explaining tells. It really doesn't bother me that crypto doesn't want to give reads. Magister, on the other hand, votes for warrior and says that he is scummy, but he blatantly refuses to say why. Instead, he essentially says in 227 "go read warrior's ISO and figure it out for yourself." What that means to me is "I don't really have a reason, but if you can find one, I'll just pretend that's what I meant the whole time." Maybe it's just that I've only played newbie games before, but I've seen scum do that plenty.

No, that’s not what I am saying at all. Crypto on multiple occasions has rendered votes with no reasoning. He voted for me ostensibly because I pissed him off. Dragging his reasoning for voting and calling warrior scummy out of him was like pulling teeth and the result was basically ‘instinctive’ with some garbage “He’s not showing Townie Enthusiams”. Crypto has basically done exactly what sets you on edge about Magister – not supporting his reasons why players are scum.

As far as "fence sitting" on Stringer... I suppose you could say that also about the 22 other players I didn't comment on either... -_-

Nice deflection.

You basically chose to comment on Stringer and said effectively “He’s sort of scummy but I’m not sure if he should be voted”. You’ve just laid the groundwork to go either way on him depending on the wagon and to have an out if he ever flips.

Town doesn’t have reason to lay ‘escape hatches’ like that.

--

...and this excuses him from being scum?

Okay, but what's the plan, then? Just ignore him and have him tag along for the ride?

Of course not on either case. You judge a clear VI by what you perceive as the intent behind their motives and the totality of their votes / suspicions. Players like Fourseen are much more readily caught via VC Analysis than saying “That’s so bad, it must come from scum”. And if you need a test suspect for linked passing (like from a caught scum to non-confirmed) you put him first in line in hopes of catching a free kill if he is scum.

I read fourseen via what I perceive his motivations to be currently as not scum.

I do. I think it's possible he wanted to be noted as voting crypto, but without commiting to or making any sort of effort to prolong crypto's wagon.

So your scum motivation is that he wanted to vote his partner but not effectively push / prolong the wagon. In a manner that is sure to look like weak distancing that doesn’t earn him any actual Town reads if crypto ever flips scum.

I don’t see that at all.

Sorry, there is just no middle ground between the retardation of EM and the ostentation of MS.

Why me = Fry me

I found the conflicting positions taken in these quotes from that post to be interesting.

On one hand you present EpicMafia as the scourage of Mafia existence and then turn around and use a phrase that germinated and became well know from there.

Also I disagree that asking EC to support his reasoning when it was highly suspect (as I pointed out myself) is ‘Why Me’ posting.

[MagnaofIllusion]

It accomplished what I needed to do already.

Active Lurking Achieved?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Welcome DGB!

I’m not going to give you the ‘Town Tell” pass that others are advocating for you based on crypto’s replace-out. Given Atomic you should know why given your own actions and Sensfans. I'll elaborate if necessary.

I need clarifications on why these reads are as such DGB – nothing long but something I can work with:

WE5874016 - Sinestro [Online.] – Why Town? Much lower activity than should be expected from hydra of hiplop and Andy. Horrible justification for Fourseen vote. Given the mechanics of this game hiplop’s ‘I’m bored because I’m VT’ regular excuse doesn’t hold water.

BT1357719 - Stringer Bell [Online.] – Why not Scum? Do you disagree with my reasoning?

You're better than this word macaroni salad when you're town.

VOTE: nopointunactingup

Please elaborate on why the phrase ‘word maracroni salad’ appears in that sentence.

You won't have to campaign for my lynch tomorrow, your team will NK me.

If you are Town ( or scum in Multi-scum environment ) you know this isn’t true. It’s why you go to the trouble of playing as you do Day 1.

--

@Kdub

– Please give me your read on Stringer.

--

I find the reasoning of Ludi and those who talk about how there's 0% fourseen is scum by the fast wagonning bullshit.

It's just appeal to probability. Please show evidence that he's not scum instead.

If Fourseen flips scum those will be my number 1 suspects.

In regards to the bolded –

1. You are using Appeal to Probability incorrectly. An Appeal to Probability is saying the odds of something happening are so small that they couldn’t have happened (ie a Cop scanning a Godfather N1 and a Miller N2 in a game) which is a fallacy. It’s true that Ludi is incorrect in stating outright there is a 0% chance that Fourseen is scum. Unless he has some power that tells him Day 1 that Fourseen is Town (which I don’t expect is in this game) as Town he shouldn’t be 100% sure. I don’t think Fourseen is scum but am willing to acknowledge I could be wrong.
2. Asking for ‘evidence he’s not scum’ is horrible. You can’t prove a negative, especially Day 1 in this game. What evidence is there of actual scum intent in Fourseen's play?

I don't get why ppl discourage the leading pressure wagon but not pushing for any other wagon (Magister Ludi, slysly )

Um this is a complete lie. I know Magister is pushing warrior and I am pushing Stringer. Why fabricate statements like this?

--

Still fine with vote and reason,
but will change if it turns into a stringer bell lynching season.

The way to achieve an actual lynch is not to wait for others to commit. Join me and lead the charge – Vote Stringer for a better tomorrow!!!1

--

Too scummy to be scum, MoI? I don't like your logic at all. Fourseen has been scummy, lurking, and utterly stupid. I am not focusing on point 3 for my vote, points 1 and 2 are also important. Do not misrep me by saying "Junpei is just screaming "LYNCH THE IDIOT!"."

I’m not saying he’s ‘too scummy to be scum’. I’m saying his play doesn’t show the hallmark of scum intent. If you can explain to me what he gains as scum from his actions I’ll certainly listen. I don’t see any net gain … in fact it clearly was net negative. I don’t see anything that indicates to me he’s not Horrible Town in his plays.

As for lurking – that’s a pretty ludicrous charge. Fourseen has 9 posts as of this point. Players with less?

Wazzatron – 5
Nopoint – 4
Whispersilk – 1
Redcoyote – 5
Drunken Piper – 4
Springlullaby – 7
Diddin – 4
Peregrine – 8
Sinestro – 8
Bunnylover – 3

That’s 10 players – 40% of the total game. I’m not even counting the players with 9-11 posts which probably brings the percentage to well over 50%. The 'lurker' tag in the above post looks like it was a Wikitell tacked on to 'strenghten' you presentation.

Playing stupidly isn’t a scum-tell. It’s a function of being a bad player. Being able to look past the stupidity and look at motivations is an important skill to have here on MS.

If we get to deadline and he’s the only viable lynch I’ll vote for him. But until that point I’d rather look for players I think are showing true scum intent.

I'm suspicious of..
Toog, Stringer, Magister Ludi, didden

Then vote Stringer. It’s a good place for your vote.

--

I'm not a fan of the whole cognitive dissonance line of argument concerning stringer, I don't see scum wanting to look town with the whole "I don't want an easy lynch" thing just hopping on the next available wagon.

That’s exactly why I suspect him. If he was Town who really didn’t want a ‘easy lynch’ he wouldn’t have jumped immediately on the Fourseen wagon given what concerned him about Warrior’s wagon should still have concerned him about Fourseen’s. His behavior indicates his reasoning for unvoting Warrior and not voting anyone else was manufactured.

--

When crypto was asked for his reasons, they werent great, but he provided them

No, this isn’t 100% correct. He was asked by Junpei (IIRC) about his reasons for voting me and never gave them. Please review his ISO and see if you agree. If you disagree please show me his reasons. If you agree does this change your opinion?

Bah, you replaced out ...

--

unvote, Vote: Junpei

I guess I'll give Crypto's replacement a chance for now. Willing to change to SB but I don't think that lynch is happening either MoI.

So you are willing to vote a Junpei wagon that had less support than Stringer (at that time) but are saying you are willing to change to Stringer but the lynch ‘isn’t happening’?

Get your vote on Stringer ASAP.

--

im not SK hunting yet

Pending the results of N1 this raises my Furc as Mafia read. No-one mentioned you were SK hunting ….

Possible slip indicating you are Mafia and via numbers know that there is unlikely to be another Mafia team.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@EVERYONE

– Notice that Stringer is attempting to lurk out the attempts to apply pressure to him. Before catching heat he was somewhat active. Now he’s not posting which is a great way to make sure you don’t further incriminate yourself.

MORE STRINGER VOTES PLEASE!!!!

--

His second post "I'm pretty reserved" (bracing us for being sketchy perhaps) tingled my spidey sense, and his first posts were awful, but

then he declined hopping on some pretty easily justifiable wagons.]

So I have him leaning town, but not firmly.

Um please go ISO Stinger again. The bolded part isn’t accurate as he jumped right on Fourseen like it was going out of style shortly after being called out for unvoting Warrior without revoting someone scummy.

Wut?

In all the Large Games we have played together I have NEVER seen you die Night 1. Ever. As Town or Scum. So the inference that you will not be around Day 2 because you will be killed looks to me like an attempt to direct protection to yourself. Not a fan of that sort of behavior.

--

Correction, slysly is not projectmatt. Shit. Hmmmm

So you’ve fired off a clearly incorrect attack. And one that was based completely on undermining the observer as opposed to refuting the observation. And when you realize this your response is ‘Hmmmmmm’ and then to do a sloppy ISO attack?

Your summary of why he is scum - “Lazy vote. Contenless posts, accusations of slips, nonsense, outrageous accusations.

Not backing anything up.

”

The bolded shows Cognitive Dissonance in spades. You just had posted a long rant about how everyone doesn’t have to share reasons when making accusations. Then you use that same behavior as a scum-tell on SlySly.

Accusations of slips is Null. Both scum and Town do that. Town when they see what they perceive to be a slip. Scum to attack Town / bus a Partner. Trying to say otherwise is scummy.

The rest of your reasons are either Null tells (Lazy votes) or subjective opinions (contentless posts, outrageous accusations).

Overall a scumtastic series of posts. Magister you can go swim in the Scum pool.

--

Somewhat suspicious due to the "let's not quicklynch today...wait n/m Vote: FS gogogogo" thing, and the earlier thing with Toog strikes me as a bit off as well. He's below diddin and FS on my suspect list, but he's on the next level down.

So he’s suspicious but you are unlikely to be voting him today? I just want to be sure I understand your position clearly.

--

I agree with the general sentiment that Ghostlin’s catchup where he calls both Fourseen and warrior suspicious but votes Junpei is suspect.

I mean he's all over the place. Reread my Junpei case on #391 with DGB's scum read of him on #407, then compare that play with Fate here: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=16926 (Square Enix V).

Bluntly, anyone who has so many scum reads at rapid fire is waiting for the first wagon to come along that they can just lynch.

This is horrible.

Comparing Junpei to a completely different player in a select game is scummy. Junpei’s playstyle is clearly different than Fate’s. Furthermore you ignore the fact that Fate does that exact same thing as Town. I can pull any number of games to demonstrate. Your tell isn't solid, IMO.

--

That being said, I'm prepared to go to the mat over the idea that defensiveness = scumminess because I've seen it be effective too much not to.

The be prepared for a Battle Royale if you are going to press the “Newb being defensive” is a solid scum-tell. It’s a Newb-tell and is null because it comes from new players of all alignments. A simple look through Newbie games will demonstrate this.

Let the master work her magic and be thankful you're here to witness it.

Buddying up to DGB noted.

I don't like this defense of nopoint out of the blue.

Asking someone to clarify why they are pushing someone as scum isn’t a defense. It’s asking for clarification. A defense would have been along the lines of “Nopoint is Town you have no case and are scummy for pushing on Nopoint without one”.

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Stringer

– Please elaborate on why Fourseen was scum to you in the first place. You’ve never given specific reasons, only generalizations.

--

Yeah, I mixed up the names when I posted that. Not sure what you mean by 'undermining the observer', as technically thats what all attacks ever in a game of mafia are supposed to do. Attacks are supposed to get other players in the town to view the attacked player as scum. When I attack someone, I am attempting to undermine their town reads with everyone else and insert scum reads (or further scum reads, etc)

No, that’s incorrect. You didn’t address the issue at hand (and finally did after I brought this point up) but instead incorrectly tried to say Slysly was scummy because he’d been sheeping you all day and changed 180 degrees. Which was false. Attacking the player and not the argument is a scum tactic. It demonstrates you can’t successfully refute what was stated and instead go the ‘demonization’ route. Town has no reason to do this. There is scum motivation in that sort of play.

There is a clear difference it what I have said this game. Voting is more important than words, yes. But when you leave a very early vote on someone, promise content and then fail to actually deliver, all the while keeping your vote exactly where it is, I will take object. That is scummy play.

We disagree. I don’t see an early vote left on Junpei not supported by content in Slysly’s ISO. What you've listed as scum-tells I don't see credible scum intent in. Also you've dropped generic, inflammatory phrases like 'outrageous accustations' which I don't see as credible.

Trying to paint my two valid opinions here as in direct contradiction is a lazy and simplistic thought process.

More rhetoric. Useless for Town, goldmine for scum.

Not at all. I rarely see town accuse other town of inside information. A larger majority, say 66% vs 33%, is scum falsely accusing town of inside information, when in fact they have the inside information. It's something I have noticed in my games playing. How is making that accusation, which I based entirely on my own experience (which is how everyone scumhunts in any way shape or form, from experience), scummy. That is to say, how is what you are accusing me of more likely to come from scum than town?

Where did you magically get the 66% to 33% stats from. Seems to me you’ve just grabbed numbers to support your argument. What if I say that I see Town accuse other Town of 'inside information' much more than scum accusing Town or scum. Is my personal experience not valid for my scum hunting?

Your play is scummy for all the elements I’ve already described.

You made a scummy attack (not arguing facts but trying to discredit the person) using incorrect facts (attributing his play to Matt).

You used a series of Null / inaccurate tells (IMO) in crafting your ‘read’ on Slysly.

What I see is basically OMGUS – Slysly calls you out and suddenly he was scum that was hiding in plain site. In fact the level of response from you is pretty out of scale considering the initial statement.

Things aren't null because you say they are, and Everything is subjective. I'm surprised you're accusing me of this.

I find things scummy, I call them out.

You find things scummy, you call them out. I happen to think my post had very valid points, and I was quite happy with my isolation of slysly.

And I’m very happy with my analysis of your posts and my conclusion on your scumminess for making them. I’m doing exactly the bolded – finding things I see as scummy and pointing them out.

--

I haven't. Is this something he does on a regular basis, whether he's scum or town? Anyone who has played with him can answer that, not just kdub.

In Stars Aligned 3 as Town he basically took a mis-reading of the rules and tried to say it justified him being (wrongly, mind you) confirmed Town. Very similar demonstration of him not paying attention / making bad decisions.

I don’t recall him making mechanical mistakes in Bold and Beautiful Mafia but would have to review to be sure.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I've had a scum read on Fourseen since his crypto vote/unvote (ISO #2 and #4). Like I said before, that's about as blatant as it gets. A little pressure, and he backs off? That screams scum to me. I still believe he's scum, but his wagon is dying down and it seems like his lynch isn't going to happen today. Therefore, I voted a different suspect, Furcolow.

Ok, let me get this straight ...

Someone who changes their stance radically due to a little pressure is scum?

Like yourself who unvoted on the basis of speed of the wagon on Warrior, didn't revote, got suspicon for it, and suddenly found an even faster wagon to vote for?

I agree ...

MORE STRINGER VOTES PLEASE!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

So...MoI, you're saying it's OK behavior for someone to have eight to ten running scumreads at once, versus you know, five or six intelligent scum reads? Because the first is bluntly what I'm accusing Junpei of. If that's true, then you and I have different definitions of scummy behavior.

Well let’s explore this. Gather me the list of ‘running scumreads’ of Junpei. Please either take a snipped or reference the ISO. Posts where he votes someone or directly calls someone scummy count.

If you can gather 8 to 10 I’ll review and we can discuss. I did a brief review of his ISO and didn’t count that many.

Further further bonus points if you can demonstrate that his suspicions rise each time someone calls him out I’ll be even more inclined to buy in (aka what I believe we are seeing from Magister Ludi).

--

I don't think ML is scum.

Great. I took a look at your ISO. Lots of unsupported X is Town posts, little scum-hunting. Is anyone other than Warrior, Fourseen and possibly NoPoint scum? Why is Warrior scum BTW? You never mentioned or questioned him before your vote at 140 and aside from a weak mention later that he’s a good wagon I see nothing in your ISO re that scum read.

Why is NoPoint scum, other than DGB pushing on him?

--

Have I ever mentioned how fucking annoying this is? Because it is.

Please identify what is annoying about it. Is it that I’m pressing a scum-read in a way you don’t find nice or sporting? Is it because I’m continually calling out your buddy? I’d like to know why it is annoying so we can discuss the ramification so such.

--

Diddin, I strongly believe that fourseen is scum, so should I do what MoI does and go

MORE FOURSEEN VOTES PLEASEEE every post?

Okay, I will.

Sigh … the chick is jacking my swagger …

You so 2000 and late Junpei ... [/off Black Eyed Peas]

--

How does anyone look at this and not think that FC is scum?

Because despite how obviously derp it was I can’t see any viable scum motivation for it. What does he gain by attacking one of the most active and non-Newb players who had pretty much dormant wagon as opposed to hopping on Warrior or picking someone with almost no votes but lurking (take your pick, plenty out there) and call them scummy for lurking?

This is where you have questions. You think that I succumbed to the pressure of Junpei needing a vote from me, and hence voted FC. You think that this is similar to how FC voted crypto and succumbed to the pressure of Junpei, crypto, and projectmatt and unvoted. Here is the difference:

I did not take a crap case and vote FC just because Junpei asked me about why I didn't vote somebody after unvoting.

It wasn’t just Junpei that suggested you were scummy for unvoting with no vote – RedCoyote also did and it dinged my scumdar when I read it.

Actually – I think you did just what the bolded says. You saw a derp posting series and pounced with a vague ‘as bad as it gets’ statement attached.

153-I look at the vote count and see that I still have my vote on FC. At this point, FC still hasn't done much of anything, so I take it off. I don't supply any other reads or another place for my vote.
159-In answer to Junpei's question, I did not, at that time, have a place to put my vote. I wasn't sure of the warriormode wagon, I didn't want to quicklynch him.
186-FC comes in with his terribad reasoning and votes crypto
196-FC unvotes, with the reasoning that crypto is an active player. My view of this is stated earlier in this post.
204-I vote FC, with the reasoning of "that's about as blatant as it gets."

1. Why did you bother to unvote FC in the first place then? In the time you posted 153 he had a whopping two votes. No danger of a ‘quicklynch’.
2. Why didn’t you supply other reads or place the vote then? Is it your contention that nothing scummy had gone on?

Not at the moment, I'm not sure of the warriormode wagon and don't want it to get out of hand this early in the day.

Nothing worse than quicklynching day 1.

This is your quote from 159.

Warrior got his first vote at post 40. He topped out the speed portion of his wagon at 6 votes by 147. So he gathered 6 votes in 108 posts (18 posts per vote gathered)

Fourseen, with no votes, makes the first of his bad posts at 186. He’s gathered 8 by post 213 from wazzatron. That’s 8 votes in 28 posts.(3.5 posts per vote gathered).

Is your stance that Fourseen’s wagon, which exploded at a rate approximately 5 times the pace of warrior’s wagon, isn’t a quicklynch?

Does your Day 1 quicklynching stance from 159 only apply to players you don’t think are scum?

--

All arguments I have seen on Fourseen is low zone scumhunting, the guy is derp at best. I can't fathom how people can form read on him, except to bet on an easy lynch.
The whole back and forth between stringer and MoI is bad, with similar bad reasonings.

IIoA right here Spring. You make dismissive comments yet don’t take a stance that says anyone you are deriding is scummy. Who is scum in the ‘low zone’ scumhunters ( besides Junpei)? Are either Stringer or I scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Magister Ludi

– You seem to have missed the question that Slysly put to you at 466. Or specifically didn’t answer it. I’ve quoted it here for ease of response. If you don’t respond I’ll just assume you want to continue dodging.

This is twice now that you have attacked me with a blatant lie. Please quote what I said that you interpreted as me saying Magna is scum and is your
scumbuddy.

--

OK. What I'm saying is that ML: fast wagonning = 0% scum has no basis.

This I agree with 100%.

Also … I think you butchered the quote pyramid regarding wazzatron’s ‘defending’ you. I never said ‘I don’t like this defens of nopoint out of the blue”.

And here our friend Magister Ludi immediately addresses the accusation against him with a big post, up for some Cognitive Dissonance ol' Magna?

Can you elaborate on exactly what you are saying here? I’m not sure I get where you are going.

If you are saying that Magister has a case of CG for having attacked someone for responding immediately to a case and then doing it himself I don’t think that holds up. Magister is calling out lurkers / low performers who do that. Active players responding quickly to a case is a much different scenario. I don’t see any world where you can call ML a lurker.

Magna: Could you summarize your case on Stringer? Though I'd be much more willing if we lynch Ludi today.

Quick bullet point summary of Stringer –

1. Fourseen RVS unvote with no revote – suspicion from multiple players – immediate jump back onto Fourseen when he posts ‘bad posts’.
2. Cognitive dissonance regarding speed of Warrior wagon compared to speed of Fourseen wagon.
3. Response to pressure – lowers activity when pressure slowly builds, avoiding commentary other than vague defense of his position. When I call him out for such his activity immediately spikes (this is a new element … but go look at the post where I call his lurking out possible pressue and then look at his sudden activity).
4. Possible role-fishing of Toogeloo early (not strong alone, but given what else I am seeing it is additive to the case).

I'm also waiting patiently for his response to my latest batch of questions.

--

IIoA? What is IIoA in what I have said?
1. You are obviously wrong in saying that 'i'm not taking a stance' because I'm currently voting Junpei who is on the fourseen wagon which I think is the scummiest wagon.
2. I don't think either you or stringer is scum atm. What is this 1v1 mentality crap? Your argument about Stringer was townish when it was made but it has been overstated for very many pages now. I'm not buying it. I think stringer's defence is ok and don't think that his unvote warrior stuff is as scummy as you make it out to be.

It’s IIoA for precisely this reason – That post had lots of information but added exactly zero to scum-hunting. You just said you were already voting Junpei and that post doesn’t expand on that ‘case’ any. You don’t call anyone else scum in the post. It’s a large post that looks very much like active lurking fodder.

Who said anything about 1 v 1? No-one’s called for that or couched anything in the game as such. I specifically asked you for reads on both Stringer and I given you commented on how you didn’t like out back and forth and that is was bad on both sides. Bad indicates the possibility of scumminess in the vacuum of actual commitment to a position.

I just glanced through your ISO. The only solid suspicion I see is Junpei. You had early votes for Magister and Warrior but I don’t see any strong indication you think they are scummy. Who at this stage are your scum reads beyond Junpei?

--

Frankly, when I called warrior scummy, it was based on gut feeling about his posts that I'm sure I could elaborate on, but really don't feel like elaborating on.

Ok, so you really can’t other than gut. Fair enough.

ML-town is because I feel like his play here resembles his play in sexy sedilla (towngame) more so than his play in PYP 5 (scumgame). This is entirely based on gut; but there was something about his early play in PYP5 that just felt very off. His play here doesn't feel off.

So it is gut combined with a very limited meta read. Please go look briefly at his play in Blackest Night Mafia and Cthulufish Mafia and tell me how those games affect your meta-read.

--

@Ghostlin

– Ok, let’s go down the list of reads you provide –

...DGB. Check.

Agreed. Saying you are going to enjoy pushing for the lynch of a player Day 2 rises to the level of of a scum-read.

We're at six. Already.

Agreed. Clear list of Toog, Stringer, ML and diddin and the obvious suspicion on Fourseen.

Seven. Although I'd almost say seven and half here with the mention of Toog, but that's not what you're asking for.

Agreed on Sinestro. That’s seven. You can’t count Toog as a half since he’s already on the list.

This is pretty close to half a suspicion right here--he couches it in 'too soon to tell', but I'd hope this wasn't the only thing he had on Red. Surely?

Disagree with this. That doesn’t read as active suspicion to me. Junpei clearly states he doesn’t like Red’s posting but it is playstyle driven. The ‘too soon’ actually makes my read stronger – that’s saying he will be judged by voting and other factors. That's exactly what Town should do when faced with a playstyle they find inherently scummy - look at voting patterns, relational tells, and look back for motivations as flips occur.

I'd count this at eight, but even if you discard the rest of the 'questionable' ones, he's suspected (FoS or direct vote) seven people, and infered at least two others are scummy (Red Coyote's catching up, Kdub's "scum slip".)

These are all from his ISO. I didn't fabricate them.

I’m not giving credit for that on kdub. There’s a difference between having an actual scum read and commenting on a post that seems scummy. I’ve commented on posts by Slysly, kdub and others that I find possibly suspect or scummy. Doesn’t mean I have a scum read.

So Junpei’s seven scum reads you found are – DGB, Toog, Stringer, ML, diddin, Fourseen, Sinestro.

Do you think having seven scum reads well into Day 1 in a Large Theme game with 25 initial players is unreasonable? General rules of thumb puts total scum (all kinds) at 6 to 8 depending on the setup.

Do you think any of the reads are unreasonable or unsupported?

Now that we’ve got this out there I can see the core of your reasoning.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You are selective quoting me in that post.

Once you have acknowledge it, how much of what you have said above can be conceived as a relevant and weighted argument?

Your point? I eliminated the second paragraph of 489 because it wasn’t germaine to my original point. That paragraph, for the record was –

Everybody on the fourseen wagon is using crappy arguments. Junpei is the scummiest because he tried to pass his call policy lynch for something more than what it was and trying to actively defend that stance when called on it. The only thing that is townish about him is activity, but when you plough through it, it's just noise with everyone whom he seems to be suspicious of being what I identify as weaker players. Read back his replies to me, I don't like how he handled it. I'll venture to say now that the diddin vote looks like a bussing vote.

None of that has anything to do with the IIoA nature of the post I questioned you on. That’s further elaboration on your Junpei read. It is good that you elaborate but doesn't impact my questioning on the first post in the least. I don't quote pyramid just for the sake of it. Despite what people may believe I specifically try to save as much space in my quoting without changing context.

You post a lot, and

your cases are getting progressively more over the top.

I don't remember you being that much fuzzy and all over the place from that future/past game.

The bolded is generic. Please specifically show what cases you are referring to that are ‘progressively more over the top’.

Right now I think Junpei and diddin are scum, and probably together. The rest is yet unwashed. Not disclosing town reads.
Btw I'm kinda thinking that disclosing town read may be more hurtful than in normal games since it helps scum guess cycling choice.

So your only other scum read this far into Day 1 is diddin.

When did I ask you to disclose Town reads?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, who are you trying to convince, and of what?

My main goal is to convince people to vote Stringer at this juncture. I'm also doing some scum-hunting on the side trying to get reads on slots.

Isn't that what Mafia is about? Should I include more non-sequiters about pasta salad or something?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well I don't like to feel like I'm listening in on private conversations...

I'm not really seeing Stringer as particularly scummy.

Not sure exactly what you mean by the first portion.

I’m of course willing to listen to rational discussion about other possible scum. We do have multiples of course. You’ve stricken Junpei from your list. I’m not really feeling NoPoint based on past observations. Give me something meaty to discuss on Kdub please.

--

I disagree.

I think that FC, in trying to look town, tried to pick a fight with one of the most active players.

Because crypto posted so much, I think that FC thought he could find something in all his posts that made crypto look scummy. Hopping on a bandwagon after being largely inactive would have just gotten him a lot of suspicion, so I think he decided to go for crypto in lieu of jumping on a bandwagon.

The bolded isn’t really a viable motivation unless you can show that Fourseen has a history as scum of doing that. Otherwise it’s you taking something that can come from either Town (voting for a player they think is scummy, regardless of activity / experience) or scum (faking such) and not in a proportion that makes it a scum-tell.

1. I unvoted FC because there was no reason to have my vote on him. We were past RVS, I saw where my vote was, and I unvoted.

RVS votes aren’t separate from any other part of the game. A vote is a vote is a vote.

2. I saw the votecount and just unvoted. I didn't have the time to sit down and look for scum, I just checked the thread and unvoted when I saw that my RVS vote was still on FC. When I sat back down to look for scum, it was right there in front of me.

You didn’t answer the question put to you – are you saying nothing scummy, even in the mildest sense, had happened previous to your unvote and you had no actual scummy reads at that stage?

--

DrippingGoofball, give me your opinions currently on the following players; warriormode, nopoint, slysly, and Magna. I need some sanity in here. To quickly reiterate my main points;

More buddying up to DGB.

That makes two so far.

Magna; little bit of gut here after playing with him in (how many games now? five?) (and why i'm less willing to lynch here)

long posts seem to be efforts in posting a lot, not really convincing anyone of anything.

I've seen enough of him to know this.

I chuckle at the bolded. Glass houses, dear sir, glass houses.

The difference between us is I’m directing my attention at multiple players I deem worthy. You’ve basically sat on “Warrior is scum, Fourseen is Town” all game and only develop new ‘reads’ when players direct suspicion at you.

--

Magna is the biggest name on that list, and his play seems to have an underlying agenda. It's like he is trying to throw suspicion on other people to avoid the suspicions that are currently being ridden. Maybe add chaos to game.
warriormode's wagon has gone completely silent it seems as discussion moves away from 4seen and Warrior and

onto players like Junpei and Ludi

. At the same time, warrior has also disappeared into the void of discussion.
nopoint is more of a vibe than anything. I don't like Bunny, and nopoint likes Bunny. As a result I get a bad vibe about nopoint.

Observation – note the bolded ignores the current biggest wagon of the game (Stringer) in demonstrating that suspicion is moving from Fourseen and Warrior to other players.

Toog

– why is that?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Responding to prod. Still catching up, currently on page 11.

crypto is cracking me up and I'm liking the plan. That's all I have to say for now.

So Whisper is coming in late and this slow catchup part of your self-professed "I lurk" Day 1 strategy that you have discussed elsewhere?

If so you can go on my acceptable deadline compromise lynch list.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I want to say specifically that regardless of what eventually happens that the voting and vote movement today has been very productive in laying the groundwork for future wagon analysis. Don’t let this go unremembered …

--

Hey I like DGB!!!! More people need to express their love.

Hey, I like lots of people on MS. That doesn’t mean that I buddy them in games.

That said that both RC and yourself chose to express her virtues makes me more comfortable with me read on her myself.

--

Junpei and Ludi were the first two names that came to town about discussion of current lynch prospects. I hadn't even realized Stringer had as many votes as he has akrewed.

So are you not following the thread carefully or not reading the Mod Vote-counts?

Yeah, Bunny isn't getting the love I want her to get.

Unvote;
Vote: nopoint

Why aren’t you voting for me? In 505 you express clearly the reasons you think I can be scum. Although you indicate that NoPoint might be scum (in saying only Slysly doesn’t have a chance of being Town) your ISO doesn’t address him at all.

--

@Junpei

– You aren’t getting a Fourseen lynch today. The latest VC pretty much assures this.

Please move on to one of your other suspects.

--

guys im sorry i haven't been posting much, shit keeps going wrong with me (pretty sure im coming down with something pretty damn serious) I've been sick for a WHILE, been extremely busy, and just had a pretty critical allergic reaction. I'm trying to keep up but its difficult :\

I assume this is hiphop posting. I just want to be clear – both you and Andrius have run afoul of sickness at the same time and are having trouble keeping up with the game for that and other reasons?

--

DGB: Looks like a cobbled together set of reasoning.

Anyone who's acutally played a game with DGB

sort of knows she can be...unfathomable but forthcoming if you know to ask for what you're looking for. There are other players who are suspecting people less than she is, so the attack of 'I'm not going to let her do what she wants' seems contrived to me.

I’ve bolded the important point – you show no indication of actually seeing if Junpei ever has played with DGB. And the rest of this stance looks to me like you are attacking what could clearly be a playstyle clash as ‘contrived’.

So you only take issue with three of the seven reads?

Onwards – you didn’t answer the other important part of my post – asking you what elements of that actually are scummy in your thinking re: Junpei's reads.

--

Without rereading the game, I seem to recall several players saying that diddin was on their suspect list and very few people saying they had a town read on him, yet his wagon is going nowhere. I realize my vote is somewhat unproductive right now, but I'd really like to see how viable this is before conceding and moving it elsewhere, or perhaps taking an alternative approach. Can anyone honestly look at him and say he is playing like town (even lazy town)?

1. Your vote is currently very unproductive.
2. How do you know ‘very few people’ have Town reads on him? Most people are keeping their Town reads fairly close to the vest.
3. Telling people to essential ‘Look at didin’ for yourself without presenting an sort of summarized case isn’t going to move anyone and just looks like you’ve parked your vote and aren’t doing much to actually get this lynch you ‘want’.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because a vote on you is no different than a vote on Bunny. I'd be going from only voter to only voter. My vote does more on nopoint.

Great. Why is NoPoint scum worthy of a lynch? Elaborate. You had little trouble elaborating on the reasons you consider me possible scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So your sole reasoning on NoPoint is that he doesn't think Bunny is scum. And that gives you a bad gut vibe.

Ok ... you are really working the laid-back / useless thing today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also, I'm not taking a strong stance on the stringer bell wagon.

It's refreshing that you are so up-front about your fence-sitting.

[MagnaofIllusion]

nopointinactingup (not a confident town read at all)

This little tidbit stands out to me form 579. Why go out of your way to purposefully fence-sit on NoPoint like this?

I like the idea of a Stringer lynch, like the idea of a warriormode lynch even more. Do not understand the vote on nopoint at all.

The warrior wagon is dead. He’s a very likely investigation / vig target for his lurking out the day at this stage. He’s not going to get deadline lynched.

Yet your vote continues to languish on him.

--

Lets get either a nopoint or warrior wagon into high gear.

No, don’t think I’m going to really look at either of those two players given your basic active lurking approach to this game.

--

MoI, I'm not backing away from my wagon yet, there's no reason to, the only reason this wagon has lost steam is because Fourseen has faded into the background. He has yet to make a good post, he is scum.

Yes, there is plenty of reason to.

1. Deadline is in approximately 4 days. You keeping your vote attached to a dead wagon is at best unproductive.
2. Yes, there is good reason why the wagon died. Continuing to say otherwise is scummy.
3. Not making what you call ‘good’ posts is not a scum-tell. Furc hasn’t made a good post all game. Is he scum?

--

You have to read between the lines. No one is going to be so blunt as to say, "Nopoint is town!!! WTF are you doing!"

Actually the bolded is clearly not accurate. Magister did that just for Fourseen.

I don’t believe Wazz’s stance to be applicable.

Good lynches in no particular order: Drunken Piper, Stringer Bell, Junpei, Toogeloo, ForseenCircumstance, wazzatron, diddin

Unvote; vote: diddin

So you list these as good lynches. We are close to deadline. You decide to bypass either top wagon (Stringer, Junpei) you listed as a good lynch and vote for the players with only 1 vote at that stage?

Scummy.

--

Ghostlin’s ‘Furc is scum’ post at

558

is also an example of useless spreading of votes to non-viable wagons at deadline.

Because for this particular Day 1, I like kicking as many wasps nest as possible; it's another player that's not getting the exposure he should. Plus, Fourseen's acutally still playing this game. Should push come to shove, I'll get on a more poplous wagon.

So you went out of your way to call Junpei scum, haven’t indicated anything that says that read changed, and yet you abandon when it is a Top wagon to show your ‘interest’ in Furc?

Again that’s at best unproductive and possibly scummy. You can call someone to everyone’s attention without moving your vote when it increases the possibility of no lynch Day1. This is behavior you demonstrate in the first 5 RL days of a game Day, not the last.

--

Oh look, Wazzatron is doing the exact same thing at

568

.

Why these people: Drunken Piper, Wazzatron

I'd like to understand the Drunken Piper thing i don't see it as scum so much as entertaining, and I have no clue why your voting me after this post

This response to Red indicates he has no problem with Red suspecting Stringer, Junpei, Toogello, Fourseen or diddin. Thus all should be at least some degree of scummy in Wazz’s mind.

Yet he places an unproductive Red vote when Stringer or Junpei need a serious push to get a lynch with deadline approaching.

--

Very few people have said they have town reads on diddin, whereas several have said they have some level of suspicion of him. The general sentiment indicates that he may be a viable wagon. I'm trying to find out. And I did list my reasons for suspecting him in my earlier post.

Several indicates perhaps 2 to 4. That’s not an overwhelming amount of support for you to idle your vote on him most of the day. Which is exactly what you did. You really didn’t push him in any cohesive fashion and just rode the non-wagon.

Well, now there really is no chance of this slot getting lynched today.
UNVOTE:

Considering voting FC again, but SB looks like a reasonable lynch as well. Going to reread him a bit.

There was no chance of getting that slot lynched today when I told you so in the first place.

Wait – you want to ‘go reread’ Stringer? In your earlier response you said he was your third scum-read behind Fourseen and diddin. Why would you need to re-read him if that was the truth?

--

@NoPoint

- I'm getting tired of repeating this to everyone in the damn thread. Magister is not getting lynched today. It's too close to deadline. Find a viable wagon that you can live with and get on it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

2) MoI: thanks for the defense of my wagon not being viable
What has made it not viable?

Deadline is in 4 days. You have 2 votes per the last votecount. Much as your play is horrible per usual generating the additional 11 votes necessary when you are basically a policy lynch makes no sense when players have active scum reads for scummy play. And several of those reads have at least 4 if not more votes.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because no one's turned in a wagon in four days. No one. It has never happened on the history of Mafia Scum.

[/sarcasm]

Oh, sarcasm. That's useful.

Please remind me - what percentage of Insta wagons that generate at deadline return positive results for Town?

Because my experience indicates that percentage would be very low.

But by all means, continue to disregard what is logical, smart Town play in favor of 'kicking at hornets nests'.

[MagnaofIllusion]

How's getting Stringer past L-8 going for you? With three votes between the leading wagon and the wagon I'm currently on, I fail to see much difference, but fine. I'm getting shouted down --enough-- that I don't see Furc as a leading wagon, but seriously people? Too dumb for scum isn't an argument, it's a headache.

Unvote.

Vote: Junpei

Ok, so completely dodge the points I just made and go to the well with more sarcasm. Very Pro-Town and Tek.

Show me scum intent in Furc's posting. You haven't. You've basically said "He's horrible, he must be scum". He may post terrible stupid things but he's giving scum reads and Town reads that can be used to judge his alignment as the game develops.

On the other side you are completely ignoring players who are doing NOTHING as far as game content.

Why aren't you concerned with players like Sinestro, Whispersilk and Bunnylover who have provide negligible content with which to judge their play? That's what troubles me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

That's from my very first post of this game. #391.

Funny you put it this way. Your ‘list’ that you are referencing here is basically 200 posts ago (aka 8 Pages). that's a full third of the game. They've had minimal input since then so wht isn't Sinsetro not worth ‘bringing attention to” in the manner you did Furc? Because it doesn’t appear you’ve ever vote for Sinestro.

You don't see the possible scum potential of refusing to read the thread (in other words, actively lurking)? That's what Furc threatens to do in a fit of "righteous indigination" because we're not voting DGB for scum. You do not see possible scum motivation in 'I absolutely refuse to be useful until DGB is lynched'? Come on. You're better than that.

Active lurking isn’t ‘refusing to read the thread’. That’s a bad statement you’ve made there.

Do you seriously think he wasn’t actually going to read the thread? I ask because that statement if the verbal equivalent of a kid going "I'm holding my breath until I get my way".

--

Yeah, I think nopoint is scum. His entire wall are lies. And I get the distinct feeling he wants to have really long clashing wall battle just to bog down everything.

Magna, I would hardly call 'active lurking' having the fourth most posts in the game. I think you yourself even pointed out a few pages ago that it would be ridiculous to call me 'lurking.'

1. If you can’t actually take the smallest effort to point out exactly what about his wall makes every part of it a lie I can’t really take your stance all that seriously.

2. Of course you aren’t active lurking. I’m talking about the manner in which you are ‘pushing’ your scum reads as it were. You basically make little, non-content post comments like “Let’s get this NoPoint wagon going” as opposed to actually presenting anything that is close to a case. Meanwhile you spared no Word volume expense in defending Fourseen. I don’t like the disconnect there.

--

Warriormode was a plausible lynch until he declared V\LA. Oh well.

No, he wasn’t. He might have been a viable candidate in your mind but he had two votes. That’s not a viable wagon this late.

--

Now that I have looked at him again, that was really the main thing you and others have focused on in building the case on him.

That’s not really accurate. I summarized the whole case on him in post 490.

[MagnaofIllusion]

More content later ...

Stinger's claim means he absolutely shouldn't be shot or lynched, unfortunately. After the results of N1 his claim can be analyzed and actions taken as necessary.

Kdub I absolutely hate that you waited this long to begin this process. We are going to rush to lynch at deadline. You need to shoot today and you need to make the final decision. I absolutely ABHOR the abdication of responsibility that putting a Daykill up for 'Public Direction' shows. This is diddin all over again from X01 and you are a better player than that IMO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Meh, Everytime 'public daykill' has happened, the person has turned out to be town. I actually like it instead of hero vig's

Not true, at least in the fact that I've Modded a game where Scum had a public Daykill power. And I believe there are other examples.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, but did the offer it up to the public to be directed, (is what I am saying makes them town.)

That's moronic thinking. Offering up to public opinion simply means potential scum is going to get a number of strongly supported suggestions. They can then shoot any of those that aren't their partners. The fact that we have three fairly strong wagons means their is some level of support for any of those targets. Hypo-scum Dayvig can offer his 'Vig' up, kill anyone other than a partner, and get Town cred from short-sighted players. Not to mention that with the potential for multiple scum groups that 'cred' is potentially even less useful.

Good Town Dayvigs take their shot, explain their actions, and live with the consequences.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Stringer

The exchange between Junpei and Furc around post 620 raised my suspicions on Junp. Furc (shockingly) makes an absolutely solid point in 621 about the number of his scum reads and Junpei’s assertions that they were ‘bad’. Junpei basically dodges answering and employs dismissive sarcasm as a defense.

--

In light of the claims that have been made the following addendums are being made to the Day 2 claiming process.

Both Kdub and Stringer are also to claim who they passed to. In case you aren’t clear why – the Hider ostensibly can’t be Nightkilled so there is little harm in that information being made public for confirmation. Kdub’s power will be made public by the Daykill anyway so again … no harm in public confirmation.

Stringer is also to claim who he hid behind N1 on Day 2.

--

Sinestro is lurker scum –

696 / 697

folllowed by no content pretty much solidify this.

--

This sounds like a scum ability in my opinion as it allows for scum to circumvent the poisoning and keep an ability on themselves for 2 Nights.

There is no such thing as a Scum power. Powers are randomly distributed.

The power is not very Town friendly. That said the Two shot element and the later links that scum would have to make in claiming the use of the power on their partners doesn’t put it in ‘Super Danger Land’ for me.

--

@Kdub: I don't like what your doing. You put the day vig ability in danger.

This is a horrible point. The public nature that Kdub has claimed for the Dayvig (it must be posted in thread) means it was automatically in danger when used.

@MoI: What is the benefit of keeping the hider ability in-game?

A Hider is a medium to very strong power in the hands of Town, depending on if Kdub is using the standard version or a variation.

The ability to make a Townie immune to Nightkill is very useful late game if we have more than one ‘confirmed’ Town. Add in the Cop element and there is no reason to get rid of it just because.

Add in the fact that scum probably can’t get rid of it at Night unless they get lucky (shooting the Hide target) means that even if Stringer is scum he has to establish links to other players if he has the power and will die if he can’t support actually having it. There is no reason we should kill him via lynch or Dayvig … no matter how scummy he has acted.

--

The lurker bushes are always a good place to find scum.

This is a good point. Large Theme Games suffer from lurker-scum much more than smaller games.

--

And now you are saying that fourseen is the kind of player you vig. What happened to your scumread which was strong enough to be ridden all day?

What is this? Are you trying to suggest you don’t Vig scum-reads?

--

NP for his inconsistentency in his scum reads.

Please support this assertion.

--

Lol. What is "much"? A cop confirmed guilty? If you got one of those, speak up.

Seriously, you're like that kid in class who walks in when Nietzsche is being discussed, without having read the source material, and then trying to offer your opinion or conjecture about what he says. You're ignorant.

If you really think nopoint is town, read his iso, make a town case, and then we can all look at it and judge it. That's what I did with forseen, and you will notice there is no longer a wagon there. Nopoint wagon is doing fine.

Dismissive and insulting needlessly? Check.
Further refusal to support the scum read on NoPoint with anything other than generic language? Check.
Asking people to justify Town reads when unwilling to justify scum read? Check.

Scummy

--

The first thing that springs immediately to mind when I read the Junpei/ML argument is the thought that I usually decry such things as Town v. Town,

Zang tell detected.

Also you’ve never supported your supposition about why Junpei is scum based on his multiple scum reads. I think you were hoping I would gloss over that.

Also, workdawg dropped a scum tell before he replaced out.

Since the vote count is going to be reset based on Kdub’s shot (I'm assuming here) you can have my vote for now.

VOTE: Ghostlin

Junpei: Game in question is on going.

Then your meta in question is unusable at this stage and may be unreliable if you don’t actually know Whisper’s alignment in said game.

--

no this is not why that is taking what i said out of the thought I HAVE A TOWN READ ON DRUNKEN PIPER, and i am allowed to scum hunt and i will be on a liable wagon soon i believe you could all do some more scumhunting yourselves though.

1. Is your assertion that I specifically am not scum-hunting?
2. You certainly are allowed, and encouraged, to scum hunt. The fact remains that you can scum-hunt without placing a vote via questioning, comments and accusations. At the stage of the game we were at when I posted getting a lynch was paramount to Town’s needs. Placing a vote somewhere unproductive was not Pro-Town in the least.

--

1) I don't view it as dead just yet, but I will likely be switching to Stinger, many people would vote for FC I"m sure, as he is useless and scummy
2) No it's not scummy, and if you think it is, then call me 'scumtastic', there is no reason for FC's wagon dying other than other people showing up as scummy and FC fading into the background. That's not a good reason.
3) Furc is scum, yes. I believe there's a post around here where I"ve ISO'd him and said he's been mostly useless and that he's a great lynch. But FC is more blatant and unlike Furc, he flatly contradicted himself.

1. Well then your view is incorrect. Whether this stems from Stubborn Town Syndrome or scum motivated behavior I am not clear on.
2. The wagon faded in significant part because several different players vocally spoke out against it and were persuasive in their assertions. It’s scummy that you ignore this and pretend it disappeared only for other reasons.
3. Please point me to that post so I can review it. Thanks!

MoI, make a comprehensive case on Stinger, the reason is to show how and why you are committed to this wagon as much as you are.

In light of what has happened over the weekend I’m going to decline this request. My reasoning is already well documented in thread. If I deem it beneficial Day 2 (pending Night results and my living that long) I’ll do so.

My irrefutable case is here

It’s not irrefutable. It’s been refuted several times. Why do you insist on terming it in that manner?

Is this what we are going bananas over keeping? This role is pretty bad, in my opinion, unless we direct it, which is still bad. If he's scum he'll just say he visited a townie or a scum pal (pure wifom) and thats why he lived, if he's town then he has a chance of death wherein we learn nothing, and a chance of life wherein we have to lynch him to get 1 clear for not likely a long period of time.

This role doesn't seem like something we should stall a wagon over.

This is horrible analysis. In this set-up Investigative powers and Protection powers are at a premium since they can be passed and thus results known immediately. Downplaying the strength of a role with both elements borders is either stupid or scummy.

--

As for nopoint's claim, I'm inclined to agree with Toog. It's a marginal town ability but a useful scum power. I have no qualms with shooting nopoint based on the claim, but I'll wait another day or so to let other people weigh in.

I want you on record – do you think NoPoint is scum? If so why would you consider shooting him? I don’t care that this is a ‘Double Day’ or not … the last game it was used as a 'Double Day' it was disaterous.

--

At that point, I counted 3 other people willing to join the diddin wagon (including me and Kdub already voting). If you have a different count, please say so.

That being said, I take no pleasure from sitting on a wagon all by my lonesome. I do not have the captial (nor the will really, diddin just pinged my gut more than the others on the list) to get this moving either.

So let me get this straight – you saw some middling support for lynching the diddin / chkflip slot and jumped onto the 1 person ‘wagon’ understanding that you didn’t actually have the ‘game capital’ to make it a meaningful wagon at this stage of the day?

[MagnaofIllusion]

1. I've bolded it for you.

So you bolded the word all. My question still remains – I am a part of all. Am I not scumhunting? If I am who do you refer to with the generic all?

2.what's the best way for you to scumhunt? i'll answer for you with your vote. Also it may have been "paramount" in your opinion however i don't believe it was i was happy to change at that point was 3 day's before now (4-5 days to deadline) and i believe that there would be time to change my vote, Do you Disagree?

Yes, I disagree with a number of elements.

1. The best way to scum-hunt is to question suspects, build cases and point out scummy behavior. There are more scum in the game than you have votes for. Of course voting for scum suspects is an important part of the process, but in the case of an impending deadline (4 days when I posted the original comments) destabilizing a viable wagon on a candidate just to vote for another players with minimal votes is not Pro-Town.
2. Voting at the very last minute is not Pro-Town. Let’s use Stringer as an example. Say you vote in the last day for him and he reaches a level where he needs to claim. He claims as he did (Hider). What now? You either lynch said role (Not Pro-Town in this set-up) or panic and wagon another player with very limited time left. Which will can lead to three things – a lynch without a claim, a No Lynch, or a lynch on a claim that is Pro-Town. None of those are necessarily good for Town. You need several days of lead time to deal with the possibilities claims present.

also i have to ask is there a reason you voted both stringer (top of post) and Ghostlin (just above quoted) in the one wall?

Stringer was intented to be an unvote and I blew the tag and missed it on review. Clearly given my commentary that was the obvious answer. What is your interest in that anyway? Do you think it is scummy to vote for multiple people in one post?

--

I think he's got a better than average chance of being scum. Purely based on gameplay, he's below SB in scumminess, but given the claims, I'm not going to second guess myself when it comes to killing him if that's what you're after.

Thanks. I just wanted acknowledgement from you that he was an actual scum read at this juncture, even if it wasn’t your top scum read.

--

MoI: #490, which was the last thing you posted about my Junpei read and also saying you understood my reasoning (or rather the 'core of my reasoning') was answered in #530. I dislike the implication I didn't answer your questions/didn't have a valid case because you're not paying attention/didn't like it.

No, it isn’t. From

544

-

I’ve bolded the important point – you show no indication of actually seeing if Junpei ever has played with DGB. And the rest of this stance looks to me like you are attacking what could clearly be a playstyle clash as ‘contrived’.

So you only take issue with three of the seven reads?

Onwards – you didn’t answer the other important part of my post – asking you what elements of that actually are scummy in your thinking re: Junpei's reads.

Also I asked this direct question in

490

–

So Junpei’s seven scum reads you found are – DGB, Toog, Stringer, ML, diddin, Fourseen, Sinestro.

Do you think having seven scum reads well into Day 1 in a Large Theme game with 25 initial players is unreasonable? General rules of thumb puts total scum (all kinds) at 6 to 8 depending on the setup.

Do you think any of the reads are unreasonable or unsupported?

In

530

I don’t see any answers as to the bolded.

Again for the record – what specifically about Junpei having seven scum reads Day 1 is scummy? That was the thrust of your initial attack. Is it the volume specifically? Is it that 3 of his seven reads you think are unreasonable? The assertion then is that 4 of his seven reads are reasonable / supported.

Your dislike doesn’t concern me in the least. You didn’t answer direct questions. Thus I called you out on that.

Your 'Zang tell' is bunk, and I can hardly defend against what the previous player of this slot did in all of four to five posts before he left. Your vote on me is stretching, particularly since you accuse another player of trying to throw an investigate role away. So...what's your case again?

Actually my Zang tell isn’t bunk at all. It’s proven out fairly consistently to be a good indicator of scum intent. It’s stronger early in the game (Day 1) before still has application later on. Zang calling Jack / myself TvT in Stardust Mafia and Spyrex calling Fate / me TvT on Day 3 of the recently ended Video Game Mafia Upick are just two example off the top of my head.

I don’t care if you can’t defend you predecessor – his sins are yours. They just don’t magically wipe away because you replaced.

Care to explain how my vote is stretching? In a game with the strong possibility of multi-scum that you are trying to use my suspicion of Junpei as absolving you of being scum is rather comical. Scum in multiscum love to scum-hunt the other side.

I’ll put together a formal case on you here in the next day or so since you asked

so kindly

in such a defensive manner.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I've seen at least one game on this site where the Zang tell doesn't work MoI, it's pretty lazy scumhunting.

Sigh. No tell is 100% accurate. That’s pretty much Mafia 101. This ‘I’ve seen an example where it didn’t work, therefore it’s crap’ is a poor argument. More times than not I have observed it as a valid tell.

To answer your question specifically, in a 25 player game I find it odd that that you'd target 3 of the 7 most active players at the time---I believe you called me out on something similar when you asked if I didn't suspect whisper.

So you are saying that suspecting active players is scummy? The players providing the most post and thus ostensibly the most content to dissect and analyse for scum intent? The players most likely to actively challenge suspicion? Why is it scummy? What is the scum intent?

Can you even tell me what this magical tell you used on WorkDawg is?

It’s clearly in my ISO – Posts 299 and 315 are where Workdawg’s Cognitive Dissonance regarding Crypto and MagisterLudi / Fencesitting on Stringer are found. I note your use of dismissive wording (using Magical as an undermining technique) in your response.

That's my problem with your 'case' so far--two of your reasons you've listed so far are based on tells, you've yet to explain one of them, one I can't cite anyone else on the site except you using, and you've based the rest on questions I frankly didn't catch and have explained in less than three lines in the above. All while saying you understand my reasoning.

The bolded ‘yet to explain one of them’ is rather bunk since I explained it back when I made the observation.

Your explanations (or lack thereof) don’t make sense from a Town perspective. I can understand your reasoning but that doesn’t mean I agree with it. You’ve failed to explain clearly why having multiple scum reads in a Large Theme game is scummy.

Your 'no-one else uses that tell' has the faint smell of 'Caught for the Wrong Reason' desperation.

I could say you've dropped a secret scum tell in your last post, doesn't make it necessarly true. Also, nice and mature, refusing to restate a case.

Where did I refuse to state a case? Just because I haven’t hopped to do it immediately doesn’t mean I will not do so. Misrep.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna, what is your opinion of nopoint? Do you think it would be a mistake to kill him?

I don't think he's scum. He's playing to his Town meta. Town NoPoint may not come off as the best communicator but he's providing reads and attacking multiple players. Scum NoPoint tends to power-lurk and avoid conflict.

I see this as Town NoPoint. Additionally his "Everyone on my wagon is scummy" posting as of late smells of Townie paranoia.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI- you keep saying two scum teams. I've seen nothing to indicate this. What are you basing this idea on?

Correction - I keep saying there is a strong likelyhood of two scum teams.

It was one of the easiest fixes that was suggested at the end of X01. Having two scum teams as opposed to one team and a SK reduces (but doesn't eliminate) PoE since scum can pass to Town or other Scum. The slight change to the passing mechanics (allowing the pass but giving consequences to follow) actually bolsters my thoughts - a more limited scum team means a sacrifice is a bigger net cost to their faction.

Again - in 25 players it isn't unexpected for a 3-3 or even 4-4 distribution given the set-up.

In the end once we get some Night results and a flip or two we'll have a better idea.

[MagnaofIllusion]

RedCoyote: The fact that there was 6 scum in last game and no one has mentioned that fact until now is very interesting. I wonder how Furc knew about it.'

You wonder how Furc knew that there were 6 scum last game? He played in that game as part of a hydra. Also, it's pretty public knowledge given you can go look at the thread. Why is it interesting to you?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why I Think Ghostlin is Scum

–

Elements from Workdawg

–

A few reads so far.
Crypto is working his way back to town IMO. He' active and stirring things up. I'm a big fan of that generally.
MasterLudi is rubbing me the wrong way. Refusing to explain tells is annoying.
Stringer is mildly suspicious... but I'm not sure it's very much.

This is the post that dinged my scumdar and began my back and forth with Workdawg.

Here he gives crypto Town cred for being active and stirring things up. Nothing outwardly wrong with that.

Then he dings MagisterLudi for refusing to explain tells. He specified that this meant this means Magister calls someone scummy but refuses to say why. Which is what Crypto had been doing all during the day. Crypto was asked about his vote on me by someone and never elaborated. His elaboration on why warrior was scummy can be summed as gut.

So it’s Cognitive Dissoance – MagisterLudi is scum for a behavior that he wants to completely ignore in Crypto.

The fence-sitting on Stringer is based on my Stringer as scum read.

Elements from Ghostlin

–

In post 391 Ghostlin presents his replace-in reads.

He calls out the following people –

Fourseen – He attacks him for his vote / unvote of Crypto.
MagisterLudi – He attacks post 264 and shows how all six paragraphs are incorrect on multiple levels. Also says that 265 is ‘backwardsly hypocritical’
Warriormode – That he is opportunistic for his vote on Toogeloo for giving out ‘anti-Town’ information
Sinestro – Attacks his use of sheeping as a scum-tell in 284 and says his scum-hunting is fake (or lacks actual scum-hunting)

Who does he vote? Junpei because he has ‘too many’ scum reads and in this one game Fate had reads like that also and they hung him and Fate was scum.

So he’s provided reasons for all the above listed players (and note he calls out at least 5 players as suspect which doesn’t really jibe with his ‘too many scum-read’ stance) but votes Junpei for Fate-meta. And poor Fate meta at that since Fate plays like that all the time. In essence his problem with Junpei is a single game of a different player.

I find that scummy.

1) Because the guy who's FoSing everyone active I have a really hard time believing is Town.

2) Because he's not really got enough votes yet and I want to draw attention and discussion that way.
3) Because even though I believe you may be scum, Momma always said to choose your battles.

Number 1 is highlighted. This is the core of his case on Junpei. Note the language choice (hyperbole on the number of suspicions of Junpei).

Also, in review I don’t like Number 3 much either. Why avoid pressuring MagisterLudi (who he thinks is scum) because he wants to be smart and ‘choose your battles’? That shows survivalist tendencies (doesn’t want to attack a player he might find daunting) and is antithetical to the process of finding multiple scum in a large game.

So...MoI, you're saying it's OK behavior for someone to have eight to ten running scumreads at once, versus you know, five or six intelligent scum reads? Because the first is bluntly what I'm accusing Junpei of. If that's true, then you and I have different definitions of scummy behavior.

Here begins my questioning of him regarding his Junpei is scum read. We’ve already discussed how Junpei only actually had 7 reads of possible scum (8-10 was again hyperbole and is not really much different than Ghostlin’s initial list of 5).

Ghostlin then never addresses how having multiple scum reads on Day 1 of a Large Theme game is inherently scummy / shows scum intent. Referring to a single Fate game isn’t evidence … it’s cherry picking a situation that suits his reads.

Now at 558 Ghostlin opens up his ‘Furc is scum’ attack. This brings his ‘scum reads Day 1’ to six. Which again conflicts with his stance on Junpei. And he votes him.

And at this time he moved from a wagon of five (Junpei, who before his vote shift was tied with Stringer for the top wagon) to a wagon of two including his vote. At that point the game was within 5 days of the original deadline and no-one was near lynch. Hardly seems like the voting behavior of someone who has an honest scum read on a candidate (Junpei) and wants to make sure he sees his lynch through.

Review Ghostlin’s ISO – he really doesn’t push Junpei at all after voting him. In fact the only reason he revisits his vote is due to my questioning when Junpei directs questions his way.

Because for this particular Day 1, I like kicking as many wasps nest as possible; it's another player that's not getting the exposure he should.

Plus, Fourseen's acutally still playing this game.

Should push come to shove, I'll get on a more poplous wagon.

I bring this up for two reasons –

1. To again highlight the Cognitive Dissonance in Ghostlin’s play. Here he says “I like to kick as many wasp nests as possible”. The message here is that spreading around suspicion where you think it needs to go is a Town mindset. But this directly conflicts with his stated “Junpei has too many suspicions, I can’t believe Town takes that approach” stance.
2. The bolded is interesting – why does activity have anything to do with Fourseen’s being a good lynch when you called him scum earlier?

I acutally don't agree with the nopoint/SB wagons enough to not lynch them as a compromise, and if I were to jump somewhere, it'd be on ML or Junpei, which I've already received flax for one.

He’ll jump to MagisterLudi who he hasn’t questioned or scum-hunted since his initial replace in. And who at this point had two votes and wasn’t a viable wagon 4 days to deadline.

That brings us up to date with Ghostlin’s reaction to my calling him scum was very much outsized.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The OP of x01 shows a count of five for the scumteam. Is it wrong?

You are forgetting DGB there who was Serial Killer, which is scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I agree that SK is not town, but I don't agree that the SK is part of the scumteam.

It's an irrelevant semantic distinction. There were 6 total scum in the last game. Scum is a generic term covering Mafia and Serial Killer factions.

[MagnaofIllusion]

That will be hard to determine now that you've answered a question aimed at RC. He said scumteam, that is not a generic term that includes an SK. I wanted to determine if he made a mistake or was purposely being misleading.

Do you think there would be any potential gain for him as scum to be 'deceptive' about the number of Mafia members in a game he played as a member of the Mafia and is easily publicly accessable? What possibly could that gain be?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’ll respond to what little there is to Ghostlin’s ‘defense’ in the morning. Suffice it to say his 'he has three points' summary is misrepresentation and scummy as hell.

--

Andy is Andrius????

I can’t believe I’m about to do this …

INSERT FACEPALM PIC HERE

--

4) We're reading. When we read. When I play as a hydra its sort of turned into me sharing the slot instead of coop, as IDEALLY I only have to post half as often,

thus I can put less time and constant effort into the game.

(Read: Nintendo Mafia. I always lurked in the shadows offering opinions to the hydra buddy but never actually did alot of work publically until LyLo when OWNED.)

The bolded is crap. Both of you are wanting to put in less time and effort and what do we get? Crap / non-existent play. Hydras are more time intensive because you not only have to read and stay active but you have to come to a meeting of the minds before actually posting. How this ‘I can hydra when I don’t have the time’ site fairy tale came about I don’t know but I’m going to snuff it out if it kills me.

Well yes but you can still stay Vanilla for a loooong time.

Probably not. You are going to get lynched / killed long before that giving the effort you are. Plus “I’m bored I’m Vanilla WAAAAAHHHAA” is crap. Stop playing Mafia if being Vanilla bores you.

Sweet Magna sees springlullaby_scum too. Awesome.

1. Where do you see that?
2. I’m allergic to buddying. Check

On my end I'm working on a variant of Magna's plan for claimings and whatnot. It probably won't be better as he played and tested it in the original but I also had a hand with the original so I'm going to look at it too. /BAKER

Don’t bother looking to revise the plan. Nothing to be brought to the table and a waste of time / active lurking fodder.

--

All this waffling close to the deadline is interesting, but not productive. Of the people who were OK with killing nopoint, a few of jumped off the wagon but haven't given much indication that they have changed their mind about him. Ludi, you're saying you think he is town now, but I've stated that I'm going to shoot him and you are not actively doing anything to dissuade me. It's not a good mindset - "I know this guy is going to die, I suddenly have a town read on him, but I'll go attack someone else without doing anything to prevent his death". If nobody is going to give me a good reason otherwise, I'm still killing nopoint. I'll give people ~6 hours or so from this post. If something warrants it, I can hold off until closer to the deadline, but then people might panic and quicklynch if I take it too close, so I don't want to wait until the absolute last minute.

This is exactly why all the ‘Let’s make it a Double Lynch’ talk was foolish in the first place.

Shoot who you want and deal with fallout, even if it means you need rope. Continuing to run claims up the flag-pole isn’t productive for Town in the least.

--

Yeah, I don't think you should shoot him. This could be a giant egg on my face if i'm found out to be wrong later in the game, but I strongly discourage you from shooting him. I think how people act when they are close to death reveals more than all sorts of talking beforehand ever could.

I'm sort of scrambling here to find someone who I think is scum, which is pretty unlike myself so late in the game. Magna seems townier now than ever, warrior has flaked until wed and heat has gone off there, nopoint I think is town, and I'm not as sure on slysly anymore (considering he might legitimately be busy)

What I'm trying to do now is speed read this thread to gather myself again. I think I was taken down a route of thinking people who were being confrontational with my own slot were scum, when in reality most scum aren't confrontational at all. So thats where I'm at right now.

This absolutely reeks. “I have no more scum reads and I was fooled because I think everyone who suspects me is Scum because I’m that bad a player.” That’s what you are saying and I don’t buy it in the least.

--

MoI that could be balanced with a recruiting mechanic

It could be balanced by a lot of things. That said your ‘cult / recruiter’ speculation is more far-fetched than two scum teams or any number of other options.

And why whine about set-up talk when you are doing it yourself. Also hint – scum already have a knowledge advantage of the setup since they know their faction.

ALSO – STOP CLAIMING WHEN YOU DON’T HAVE TO!

--

MoI: What is the Zang tell? Is committing the Zang tell enough to lynch Ghostin to you?

It’s fully explained in my case on Ghostlin. Why don’t you read that? Is it enough on it’s own? No, but with Ghostlin it was the straw that tipped him from suspect to full scum read.

Here's question for you: If every post I make is pure utter nonsense, and shows a clear lack of complex thought or logic, does that make me town? I believe in innocent until proven guilty, that is golden; but mafia is different, in mafia sometimes you have to lynch the person who shows no signs of guilt, but no signs of innocence. That said, Fourseen has shown some guilt, but you keep ignoring that fact.

No, it doesn’t make you Town it makes you a Moron.

I’ll say this for the last time Junpei – you need to be able to develop a means to read VI players. Just saying ‘He’s terrible, lynch him’ is made of fail.

Hider is not as strong as you're implying, are we thinking of the same role? It doesn't confirm town well, and it doesn't confirm scum because we have to specifically direct it, which is dangerous.

See, this is the point where I get frustrated as all fucking hell.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. It shows and your continued need to argue when you have no understanding drives me up the wall.

In this set-up a Hider like any other investigative role is EVEN STRONGER THAN NORMAL.

1. Any result can be outed THE NEXT DAY for any investigational role. Cops / Trackers / Hiders / Whatever are free to come out and say “Hey, I passed a Cop last night and Player X is Scum / Town”. Without worrying about repercussions since they can’t be killed to stop the Cop skill.
2. The Hider as Stringer described it is the standard one – IT CAN’T BE ROLE-BLOCKED. The only way the holder of the Hide ability doesn’t survive is either being moronic and not submitting or hiding behind scum. Otherwise they are assured to give their “Player X is not scum’ report.
3. But what if they are lying scum you say? Doesn’t matter. The report itself is only relied upon when said player flips or is proven to be Town via other means. Thus the Hider report clearing Player X on Night 1 becomes an absolute clear when the player who gave it flips.
4. The Hider also is almost assured of living to pass the power on. That’s important given that kills resolve before passing.
5. A proven scum Hider claim still bring benefits in the person they pass to being cleared of being in their faction / sacrificed to the ‘Poison’ mechanic.

I could go on but your ‘Hider is weak’ statement show you really haven’t thought about what makes the set-up tick at all.

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

Furc claimed third party. We kill him.

Point out where, that's a novel concept!

[MagnaofIllusion]

1) The Junpei muitiple suspicion factor is a scumtell to me like he has a scumtell for...oh, using the phrase 'town v. town' (which I encourage everyone to start using as town) as a scumtell.

Dismiss instead of respond. Noted. Facts –

You yourself have practically as many ‘scum’ reads as Junpei. I pointed this out. Yet again – Cognitive Dissonace in full effect. You claim that Junpei having multiple scum reads is scum behavior but you are doing the exact same thing yourself.

2) About half of the suspicions Junpei had I disagreed with. 3 out 7. For sake of argument, 40%. If someone's handing out a 40% bum read accuracy on scum tells, something maybe might be wrong.

Look, let’s use numbers in a non-meaningful way!

You disagreeing with 40% of Junpei’s reads doesn’t make them ’bum reads’. Sorry to break that to you.

I don’t agree with a large number of your scum reads. This should tell me maybe something might be wrong, correct? Thus my read on you must be accurate. Not really any answer you can give to that statement is there when you are on the other side of the coin. That's why that stance isn't valid.

Have you ever done a survey of Town player’s reads in a Large Theme game to determine whether being 60% accurate (which you are basically saying Junpei is since you don’t disagree on that percentage) is above average or below average? Not that your use of accuracy really means anything at this stage given we have no flips. But suffice it to say you’ve just grabbed the number and ran with it hoping it was big enough to make your stance look good.

3) The scum reasoning for having muitiple tells on many active players is that it permits scum to ignore buddies that may be lurking and a fluidity in wagons. (You can vote anyone if you suspect almost everyone). Thing is, I'm still not sure why I'm explaining this to a player like MoI who's been around more than once, and I thought it was obvious.

Let’s see …

1. It assumes only Town players are active. Bzzzt … wrong answer there.
2. It assumes that all of Junpei’s reads are active players. Kind of hard to say that your stance is valid without actually showing who of his reads are active versus not. Let’s do that – here is the list of players we agreed were his seven suspicions earlier:

DGB, Toog, Stringer, ML, diddin, Sinestro, Fourseen.

Of those the only players you can say are active players are ML and maybe DGB. And that’s stretching it. So once again – how is Junpei using reads on all the active players?

Yes, that’s the sound of your ‘scum tell’ exploding in the face of actual facts.

Oh … I also notice you don’t even try to address the inherent scumminess of using Fate’s meta against Junpei and the extra scumminess of doing it in such a clearly self-serving way. I’ll just assume you know I’m right and just hope it dropped into the abyss.

I find it ironic that we've got maybe technically four days left to deadline, and MoIs jumped on a short wagon (mine) after posting how obviously scummy Stringer is the entire day.

Yes, ignore the developments in thread (such as Stringer’s claim that we absolutely should not lynch / kill based on the role) and try to say that I’m abandoning my read to just attack you out of the blue. Ignore I’ve been questioning you and calling your behavior suspect since you replaced it.

MoI really has three points: he disagrees with my read on you as some kind of scum reasoning, he didn't like my focus on you versus Fourseen or my vote hopping to Furc (the last is a pot/kettle moment) and he has a mystical Zang tell that says I'm scum (and a tell from the Workdawg days).

Not even close and scummy of you to try and represent that case as such.

The case on you is made up of many elements -

Cognitive Dissonance from workdawg's Crypto and ML reads.
Cognitive Dissonance from you regarding 'having too many scum reads'.
Failure to authentically scumhunt. You've coasted and not pushed a single one of your scum-reads.
Outsized reaction to a single vote.
Surivivalistic play in not wanting to push a perceived 'hard target' in Magister.
Use of meta from a single Fate game as 'evidence' against Junpei.
Inability to justify why Junpei is scummy for having his reads - when questioned the goalposts and your 'reasoning' move each time.

That rhetoric and a buck fifty will buy you a (bad) cup of coffee. For someone who continually goes 'WHERES THE SCUM MOTIVATION, OMG?!', the fact you have an entire tell based on the phrase on someone says really proves you love to talk the talk, but you don't really walk the walk.

Strawman away!!!! My case showing your scummy behavior isn’t based only on the Zang tell.

I'm not downplaying motivation based scumhunting, but I've explained for the third or fourth time motivationally why scum might do some of the things I've accused various players of, and you have a scum tell based on the exact usage of a phrase. That's cognitive dissonance, MoI.

Do you understand what Cognitive Dissoance is? I ask because your use in the last sentence shows you don’t. I have a Tell based on scum buddying up to players / seeking Town cred by calling Town versus Town conflicts just that. My view of that hardly qualifies as CD.

Please continue to whine about how ‘It’s based on a exact usage of a phrase’. I enjoy the flailing.

[MagnaofIllusion]

nopoint is sounding town now. Too little too late.

Oh well.

Let's move on to the chore of stringing up Furcolow. He has a third party role.

1. Absolutely hate this ‘oh well he’s Town’ after your starting the wagon on NoPoint and then coasting along not doing anything about it.
2. Explain exactly where Furc claimed third party. I want a quote or a post number. This is starting to smell like the DGB from Atomic Mafia who made bad pushes and was scum. You don’t get any sort of pass in not providing support for your statements.

--

It's a bit curious that nopoint posted nothing all day even when I indicated I was likely going to kill him, then suddenly shows up minutes after I do it.

Whatever, no reason to argue it now since it's done. We just wait for the mod to show up and post the flip.

Why is it curious? If he flips scum everyone is going to ignore that last post as WIFOM bait anyway. If he flips Town there are any number of explanations why he didn’t post before that point including lack of access.

--

Alright, give me links to show me the difference between scum who act similar to fourseen, and town that do.

I don’t have time to run down tons of source material for you.

What quickly comes to mind for me is kdowns – go read Mini Theme 70s Show Mafia and Large Theme Video Game Upick Mafia. For fun don’t look at his alignment in either before reading and decide for yourself.

Read Day 1 is all you really need to do. Specifically look at the movitvation for actions in those games and how he is treated by other players. His play / posting is pretty darn bad in both but one shows scum intent and the other doesn’t. Plus looking at how other players treat VIs is also a good way to judge their role.

As for hider, now that you've explained it I see your point. I did read your Ghostlin case, and I determined that I did not know what the Zang tell was. I'm not going to say "Oh, town v town, ah yes scum!", because I'm not a sheep like the idiots you are claiming to be town, explain to me the SCUM MOTIVATION behind going "X conversation is town v town to me".

The Zang tell shows scum intent as follows –

When a player calls a conflict Town versus Town it they ostensibly have read both players as Town. The Zang Tell is most clear and strongest early in a game (Day 1)– when little or no flips have happened. An uniformed majority player is least likely to have the solid Town reads early on to definitively say that a conflict is Town versus Town.

Scum players, ostensibly knowing who is Town / not Mafia, have motivation to take the stance.

1. In the case of where no Partner is involved – it’s buddying to both players (showing they have a correct Town read on said players) and looking to establish ‘Town Cred’ for correctly reading those players as Town early when they eventually flip.
2. In the case where a Partner is involved – it’s an attempt to defuse the conflict that might cost the player a partner if it escalates and buddying to the Town player.

Scenario 1 is more often seen than Scenario 2 but both happen.

Now later in the game calling a conflict Town versus Town really isn’t a strong tell at all given that reads become more and more established. That said scum do use the technique later – see Spyrex ‘settling’ the Fate / myself dispute Day 3 of Video Game Upick.

--

@Magister

– Why haven’t you championed for Warrior to be shot at all given your response to chkflip at 831?

And magna, yeah, I change my reads if things and reads in the game change.

As you should. That said your rapid reversal on NoPoint given you didn’t really ever give any reasons for your scum read is suspect.

I never said I had no more scum reads, only that I need to reevaluate. If you are town,

you should happy if I start to read you as town

. What is dangerous to scum is a block of townies who can mutually read each other as town, and start acting accordingly.

I'm not saying I was fooled, only that my reads may have been off. (And If I was fooled, and came out of it, all the better.)

The bolded I don’t like. That combined with your stance that I’m ‘playing Townier than any Townier’ stinks of buddying.

Why did you suspect me in the first place other than my calling you out? Please direct me to posts where you explain your read reasoning.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey. nopoint was scum. Until he was shot. It happens.

Nah, not good enough. NoPoint hasn’t even flipped. Your initial vote on him was devoid of anything I can follow and you coasted along doing nothing to push it in any way. Then Kdub spends several days saying “Hey anyone have objections”. Not a peep from you. Kdub then shoots him and you pop up saying “Oh he’s Town. Too bad”.

That’s what I expect from scum DGB.

Oh come on. You're kidding, right? Just iso him. He claimed some bizarre stuff for no reason. He's third party. He doesn't have a normal role. We're lynching him.

Oh come on. You’re kidding me right? You make wild, unsupportable statements and when asked to justify them you say “Look at his ISO” that’s crap.

What about his role isn’t normal? He’s specifically claimed he has to pass it. He’s claimed to be a Motivator which is probably some sort of Enabling role which wouldn’t tell him explicitly what it does since it is target dependant.

No, your reasons stink like Limburger cheese that has sat out in the sun for weeks on end.

Question

– if I pressure you are you going to flake out like Atomic?

[MagnaofIllusion]

So Kdub -

Who do you suspect if NoPoint flips Scum?
Who do you suspect if NoPoint flips Town?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Since you are here Red why don't you answer this -

So let me get this straight – you saw some middling support for lynching the diddin / chkflip slot and jumped onto the 1 person ‘wagon’ understanding that you didn’t actually have the ‘game capital’ to make it a meaningful wagon at this stage of the day?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Once kunkstar gives us a flip I’ll return with my vote and a list of players I would support as lynchs for today. We still basically have a 3 day deadline to work with so there is not a ton of time.

--

And regardless of what he flips, I still suspect FC and RC for independent reasons.

Does Chkflip not warrant continued suspicion with you?

--

I flaked out of a few games due to disgust with Double-Dip Mafia's terrible play. I decided to stick to a smaller number of games in the future to avoid burn out.

And you flaked out crying ‘Oh, woe is me what did I ever do to get suspicion’ when I was properly pushing your lynch. Left a pretty bad taste in my mouth.

Why not further interaction regarding me calling your stances scummy? Am I right?

--

Votes influence other players, MoI. Surely you agree with that.

This doesn’t answer my questions … you openly acknowledged your ‘vote’ / influence wasn’t going to sway people. So you can’t have it both ways. Here’s what happened.

1. You vote diddin ( a non-viable wagon with only 1 votes before your switch) and in doing so abandoned a vote on Stringer (Top 3 wagon). This was within 4 days (IIRC correctly) of the original deadline.
2. I question you about it and you whipsaw back to Stringer. You explanation is this –

At that point, I counted 3 other people willing to join the diddin wagon (including me and Kdub already voting). If you have a different count, please say so.

That being said, I take no pleasure from sitting on a wagon all by my lonesome.

I do not have the captial (nor the will really, diddin just pinged my gut more than the others on the list) to get this moving either.

In any case, I have no problem with any of the major vote getters here aside from nopoint.

The bolded is the important part IMO.

3. When I ask you why you moved if you knew it was fruitless (which the bolded clearly says) is that ‘Votes influence people’. That’s in direct opposition with the bolded statement where you explicitly said your vote wasn’t going to influence people.

My gut says that you are guilty of the same offense I ‘ve called Stringer out on … taking an action, getting some minor flack from it (and you were clearly not the only one I called out) and immediately reversing course.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Ghostlin

Players at this stage I am actively willing to lynch

DGB
MagisterLudi
Sinestro
Ghostlin
Toogeloo
RedCoyote

Lurkers who I will lynch to avoid a No-Lynch

Whispersilk
PeregrineV
Bunnylover
warriormode

Players I will not support a lynch on even to avoid No-Lynch

Stringer
Kdub
SlySly
Junpei

If you aren’t on any of these lists you are in the Meh, probably would vote at deadline to prevent a NoLynch.

--

Vote: Furculow

Least liked person on the previous nopoint wagon.

Oh, so the wagon you supported suddenly becomes suspect? And your vote just happens to land on Uber-VI Furc who is under pressure.

Show your work

. Nevermind, you are probably scum so I doubt that is happening.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't entirely understand why Stringer's claim makes him unlynchable; is it impossible for scum to obtain abilities as well day one? I understand that the ability is definitely beneficial, but I'm not sure if that clears him of his scum vibes.

Read the thread then ... no-one is saying that he's Town. Everyone letting him off for today is saying that the Ability he claimed is to Pro-Town to remove today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'll save you all some time: it doesn't matter much if you lynch the slot beyond a mislynch;

I drew no power when I replaced in, and I wasn't going to cycle it anyhow.

More to say later but I just wanted to highlight the following -

WTF is the bolded? You'd rather send a power to the Void than use the Cycling plan (which is the heart of the game, BTW) to help the Town? That's as purely Anti-Town as anything you've accused Furc or any other VI of saying.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, moron. I'm saying I got the VT power as worded in the first post. Cycling something that does nothing when there are powers we can perserve still means it does nothing.

Did you acutally NOT read this post before you decided to jump in and misrep?

No, you moron the 'Void' isn't an actual power. It just shows you don't have one. VTs do not 'cycle' their lack of power.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ghostlin isn't scum.

If the sentiment isn't to lynch Ghostlin I'll also lynch DGB in a heatbeat.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'll come up with a Fourseen case after I ISO the smaller wagons (like I think I said I was going to do) and see if my vote isn't in the wrong place.

Warning - if your case doesn't involve content other than 'This is a terrible post' don't bother. Fourseen is a terrible, terrible player. Provide scum intent behind terrible posts in your case please.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I want to review Kdub’s assertions about Wazz’s NoPoint stance from post 896.

--

EBWOP: Also, I find it perpetually interesting instead of going 'what did you mean by this?' and assuming that I'm might've been confused by the role PM you went 'lol, scummy!'

Welcome to the variant Curse of the Burden of Proficiency … I know you aren’t a moron so when you post things that don’t make any sense I’m going to look at them with a more sceptical eye.

If anything at this point

901

looks to me like you’ve resigned to your fate.

If it’s from Scum I’d also gather it might be a last second effort at weak-linking yourself to me for possible later use in a case by your Partners.

--

The run-up of Ghostlin to 7 and furc to 4 in such a short time is troublesome.

So you are troubled by the explosion of votes when deadline for Day 1 is under 2 RL days away?

Yes … this is a lurker slot posting “He look how Pro-Town I am with my concern” content. Scummy.

--

I will have very limited access for the next two days as I've just moved, and the internet is not set up in my new place yet, but I will read and catch up as and when I have access.

This slot is for bullets if we have any Town driven NKs tonight.

--

And Magna, if you think calling people town is buddying them, you've got to change your head. Forming a strong block of pro-town players is what damages scum in any game. Mutual town reads are a very strong pro-town force. Also,

Are you saying I shouldn't be no longer calling you scum?

As for your question, I initially expressed suspicion of you back in my rather longish post, maybe page 10 or so.

Make no mistake Magister – I understand how it is mutually beneficial for Town players to work with other Town players. I’ve been involved in / formed Voting Blocks. I was a member of the Town in BTTF Mafia that rolled the scum in two lynches due to that fact.

You aren’t teaching me anything. The fact remains – you gave me a vague scum read early on (the Page 10 or whatever you are referring to), said nothing significant about your read on me until the point where you called me Townie McTownpants, in effect. Add in that I’m suspicious of your slot (as expressed many times this Day) and your sudden (that’s how I perceive it, anyway) shift is why I label it as possible Buddying.

The bolded is a loaded question – if anything I’d like explanation of why you have a Town read on me given the only discussion of your read so far was your ‘He’s scummy’ Page 10 (or wherever) post.

--

This is a misrep on Ghostlin's part.

Even after stating, "Stinger's claim means he absolutely shouldn't be shot or lynched, unfortunately" MoI later votes Stringer, though later in the same post he moves his vote back to Ghostlin.

No, it isn’t a misrep by Ghostlin. As I explained to Wazzatron the Stringer vote at the top of the page was intended to be an Unvote. My posting before that vote should clearly show that I didn’t support his lynch after Stringer’s claim for Role reasons.

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

No. We don't auto-lynch the role-less. He's town, we're not lynching him.

Yup, let's not lynch the person who has a case showing scummy behavior.

Let's instead lynch on DGB's wild claims.

No, we aren't lynching Furc just because scum says so.

This last second push smells of a desperate attempt to save a Partner.

Ghostlin scum means DGB scum. Mark it down.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wazza’s attack on Kdub at 943 is horrible because, as Kdub has pointed out, the wagon on Stringer disappeared due to the Hider claim. No reason for Kdub to shoot Stringer. It’s a lazy argument that reflects lack of actual reading of the thread.

Oh look .. just 24 hours to deadline and Warrior and Bunny pop back up.

--

@MoI: why do you find DGB scummy? You have cited no reason that I can dig up.

DGB is easy to read as scum. See Atomic Mafia for my latest example. Scum DGB hides behind the “Lulz, I never gives reasons it’s how I play” stance she espoused earlier. Read her ISO.

1. Doesn’t do ANYTHING to push or support her NoPoint stance. Nada. Then after NoPoint is shot shows up BEFORE Mod flip and says “Yep, he’s Town”. I thought NoPoint was Town via read but couldn’t be sure.
2. Bad pushes all around – NoPoint was Town and this “My DGB sense tells me Furc is third party” is just horrible.
3. General lurky, non-content providing play.

--

Anyone who has any reluctance about my lynch has been derided as possible scum, scummy motives, etc, by you and your fellow wagoneers. Particularly your post in response to DGB insisting I was town to her. Instead of asking for reasoning, you go for 'oh, btw, if that's not a lynch Ghostlin, I'd be willing to switch off to DGB.'

Show me one example where I have called anyone other than DGB scum for opposing your wagon.

Are you seriously suggesting I should be asking DGB for reasoning when each of the prior attempts I have made on that angle have been ignored (asking for reasons on Scum NoPoint read, asking for support on Furc as Third party)?

Looks like you are trying to fashion a soft attack on me for being unreasonable for not asking for reasoning when asking DGB for reasoning is something she has explicitly said in thread she doesn’t have to provide (her so called ‘lower standard of proof’ statement).

And if I flip Town? I know, it's a stretch to you, how hard you're tunnelling, but I'd like you to answer the question. Does it indicate DGB's alignment any if I flip Town?

If you were to do so I’d analyze that known fact and how it impacts my DGB and other reads. I have you as a scum read so I’m not going to speculate until I see evidence to the contrary. The "I'm Town" stance doesn't really ever disuade me since I see caught scum claim "Hey, I'm Town" right to the end when they flip scum all the time.

--

Ghostlin dropped a 5-ton town tell.

Choose another wagon, please.

Don’t care since you aren't bothering to explain.

Then you should want to vote Furcolow, who stupidly claimed third party without any pressure whatsoever.

Liar. And a bad Liar at that.

I sense that Furcolow has a sticky, non-cyclable ability. It's not a normal claim. It's off.

And this is why you are scum. Because Town DGB wouldn’t push such a crap reason to lynch. I’ll explain.

If your premise is correct then no-one will be able to coorobrate Furc’s claimed Pass N1.
If your premise is wrong then the Motivate power will be able to coorobrate his claimed cycling power.

Thus your rush to confirm your ‘sense’ is bullshit since tomorrow it will be confirmed or not confirmed.

You are scum. This is Atomic all over again. Better NK me tonight DGB because I’ll be riding you ALL DAY tomorrow until you hang.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Chkflip

- It's basically 24 hours to deadline. Your 'case' on Fourseen isn't anything that hasn't been hashed out already. If people believed he was scum based on your reasoning he'd be dead already.

Why are you FOS-ing Furc when your vote is useless currently and Furc is one of the two viable wagons?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I can't read DGB (and I think peoplewho pretend otherwise are at least fooling themselves) but I don't agree with the reason cited mainly because I don't think Crypto was scum. Scum don't ragequit, I have never seen it done.

Go look at Sensfan scum and DGB scum in Atomic Mafia.

Sensfan rage-quit early Day 1 after I called his 'mass claim' plan stupid and talked about his horrible past play.
DGB quit after coming under fire (from me) for scummy attacks and stances.

I can probably find other examples if possible but two scum from 1 game pretty much ends said discussion. So your 'I've never seen it' stance just means you've don't read much Mafia.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I would be comfortable voting Furc when it gets closer to deadline if a Fourseen wagon is completely impossible today.

Deadline is in less than 24 hours. How much closer to that time do you need to get before deciding your two man wagon isn't viable?

[MagnaofIllusion]

You act like it's going to be completely impossible to achieve lynch due to my vote. Why aren't you bitching at Magister Ludi about his one-man wagon? Furc and Ghostlin aren't even on his radar ffs. Stop being ridiculous. I'm still giving both wagons looks, I'm still looking at the ISO's, and I want to make the most informed decision before switching my vote.

Oh, I'm sorry ... I'm not allowed to question you because?

Clearly you aren't really reading since Ludi had his vote on Ghostlin after the shot by Kdub. A little bit of "Hey, look over here at this person" gone wrong perchance.

I'm holding you personally responsable for your stances. Your slot has been very inactive most of the day. You don't like the attention? Can't help you there.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'll have to read back and see if you were this Newbtastically defensive in X01 Chk.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'll have to read back and see if you were this Newbtastically defensive in X01 Chk.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI: Why can't the hider ability be roleblocked? The first night it can be blocked (since its claimed), the others it will be more random. Also if the hider ability hits scum, they can block it the next night as well. Not only did you forgot about someone claim about having the power to stop a person passing their ability.
Edit: Nevermind, power been removed so far.

The standard Hider (per Wiki) cannot be roleblocked or targeted with any abilities while Hiding. And Stringer’s explanation indicates that his Role description matches the standard role.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I WILL BE VERY ANGRY IF GHOSTLIN GETS LYNCHED.

Do not incur my wrath.

AtE crap.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ghostlin (10) - MagnaofIllusion, projectmatt, Furcolow, implosion, FourseenCircumstance, wazzatron, Junpei, EtherealCookie, warriormode, chkflip

Perhaps if you had put an ounce of effort other than "TOWNTELL, DGB SMASH" into explaining why the case on Ghostlin wasn't valid or why he was Town as opposed to empty posts like this you might have been more effective.

Just sayin ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Day ends in 16 hours.

If you are not voting or your vote isn't doing anything useful you have approximately 12 hours to either get you personal wagon going to the point where it is viable or stop being Anti-Town. I'll be back in the AM and will be interested to see what has happened by that time.

/MoI to bed ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

This game ....

@Everyone

– You know what scum want in this set-up? Removal of as many Cycling Powers as possible. It reduces the Power that can possibly be in the hands of Town and reduces that changes that they get caught / killed by the Passing mechanic.

So yes, DGB’s push on Furc as Third Party is terrible and also has the bonus feature of removing another Cycling power (after NoPoints was lost) Day 1. That’s a win for scum and the only reason I can see in her contentless rhetoric.

Meanwhile Peregrine and MagisterLudi’s little “I’m going to vote for one-shot wagons” dance is scummy as all get out. Thanks guys!

--

None of my cases have been 'weak'.

Just look at the last two. On nopoint, we were gaining steam until I realized he was more likely town than scum. I thought the case on ghostlin was good, but something about the way he claimed his ability struck me as town. So i'd rather pursue my consistent number one scum target, warriormode.

The bolded is luzl.

The only person with less in the case department than you is DGB. And that’s saying something.

You’ve never had any sort of case that isn’t you just repeateding “Player X is scum” all game long.

This Ghostlin wagon now has my express disapproval. I believe Ghostlin is town

I will only vote for Furcolow as a complete last minute compromise lynch. Is there any support for anyone I outlined in my earlier posts, those being projectmatt, warriormode, PeregrineV, whispersilk, and Wazzatron?

Yup, you are scum. Thanks for solidifying my read.

--

But I'm scum, right? So really...

I want Ghostlin to be lynched

, but I want town cred.

You should be consistent, at least - and agree that Ghostlin is town because I say so. Being scum and all, I ought to know.

Nope, the bolded isn’t incorrect. My read so far is you want Ghostlin saved as he’s your scum partner. DERP. Anything else incorrect to say before day ends.

Furcolow isn't even really denying being third party, he's not clarifying the parts of his role he pretends not to understand because he doesn't want to. Is anyone's PM unclear??? Mine sure isn't. There is no reason for Furcolow to have a role he doesn't understand. He has to be faking, he's not asking the mod for clarification. He's lying.

Three more votes and we got him.

And you’ve not bothered to once deny that you are scum like I’ve been saying. Thanks for clarifying that you should be lynched tomorrow.

Better NK with your factional kill DGB!

--

"Cognitive Dissonance" and "scum because he had a lot of scum reads" are two of the low hanging fruit that have been successfully over-harvested and exploited in this game. There hasn't been even one good example given of the first and the second is just absurd. 25 people in this game. How many scum do you "scum because he had a lot of scum reads" people think are in this game? 1?

Bullshit.

Cognitive Dissonance is not ‘low hanging fruit’. Low hanging fruit is VI hunting.

You are right – ‘Scum because he has a lot of scum reads” isn’t a scum tell. Yet that was the sole reason for Ghostlin’s shitty attack on Junpei while he himself had the equivalent amount of scum-reads. So Ghostlin attacked Junpei for something that isn’t a scum-tell but did the exact same thing himself.

That’s Cognitive Dissonance. If you don’t understand that I’m not sure what I can do to help you.

--

Sly is Town. DGB is Town. RC is probably town that needs to post more. BL is just bad, but would most likely be a PL. MoI is either grossly misunderstood town, or the biggest snake oil salesman that needs to eat fire ever.

Let’s see, in order – Very likely, not a chance in hell, jury is still out, useless statement, Nice fencesitting!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Part of me wants to make a post saying how DGB's claimed Power seems like an obvious 3rd Party claim.

[MagnaofIllusion]

It also gives the scum a golden opportunity to kill me, I cannot be doc-protected.

LULZ ....

Anyway I'm getting lunch and will be back to see where we stand when I get back.

[MagnaofIllusion]

My vote is going to be useless at this point, because both the leading wagons are bad, and I have no intention of voting for either of them.

I will continue reading from where I last posted before I moved.

Oh, so you know that the wagons are bad but you haven't actually read the thread to see that.

Yeah, you are scum too.

@MOD

- Setup is broken, too high a Scum to Town ratio even with the possibility of Multi-scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

See this writhing pile of bullshit is why I was hammering each and everyone of of you who said "Oh, we have plenty of time" at 5 days to deadline.

Because all the "Dear God, Furc and Ghostlin are just so Town for the last 2 pages, too bad we have 1 hour" post make me want to puke. Hey perhaps every one of you were so casual then and now are expressing dismay is either terrible at this game or scum.

But anyway I digress.

Back to more pointless posts please!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey DGB - why don't you abandon your stupid Furc lynch and actually push for Whisper again? I'm sure those who don't understand that you make no sense with the Furc lynch will still follow you!

Because this is all pointless distancing? Let's find out ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

UNVOTE:

Oh look ... Peregrine hammered Furc and DGB immediately posts this.

Do I take it that once again one of your pushes was on Town suddenly DGB?

Could you be any more obv-scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yeah.

And look at all the players watching silently in the sidelines, waiting for the last minute to hammer.

Yup, and if you were Town you'd be happy about that since you were saying Furc was 3rd party.

But no, now the 'shift the blame' game begins.

SCUM SCUM SCUM SCUM!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

If Furc is town, chkflip and wazzatron need to be looked at tomorrow. Their last-minute switch from Ghostlin to Furc was weak.

FUCK NO.

If Furc is Town DGB and Ghostlin are first on the block. Others are in line like Peregrine. I can't say I like this line from you either Kdub.

[MagnaofIllusion]

EBWOP

*saw* whisperscum's vote, not *was*

LULZ

So it took you 3 minutes to type unvote.

NOT BUYING SCUMMY MCSCUMMERSON THE FIRST!

[MagnaofIllusion]

When you find out my alignment, promise to take your scumdar for an internal clean up.

When the game is over if somehow you aren't scum please take your entire game in for cleaning. Because it is completely shot and riddled with stupid in that case. Thanks!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Haaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaha

Yeah, that's my reaction if you end up Town. Good read there.

Now we just wait to see Furc's flip.

Telling as all get out that DGB hasn't said peep one about how it's a good lynch given her terrible push today.

PREVIEW EDIT -

Lulz, Ghost ... do you seriously think I'm joking? DGB is obv-scum. Of course enough of you are dense that on the odd chance I live to Day 2 I'm going to have to go screaming All-CAPS to get her lynched.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Time to analyze the early crypto wagon, and the late Stringer Wagon. Thoughts will be incoming.

You forgot your claim as to whether you passed or did not pass an ability N1.

I passed an Abiility N1.

Ok, now I have to look back to who opposed my Stringer as scum stance.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'd rather they claim it via actions myself unless it can be used covertly in which case you should claim who has it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'd support a Ghostlin, DGB, wazzatron, or chkflip wagon as well. Maybe others once I reread a bit. I guarantee that Furc wagon had a bunch of scum on the back end.

This list has one dead person on it and lacks Magister Ludi.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok … quick look at the Stringer voting patterns and significant counter-wagons

–

Stringer Bell (1) – EtherealCookie

Stringer Bell (2) - EtherealCookie, RedCoyote

Stringer Bell (3) - EtherealCookie, RedCoyote, MagnaofIllusion

Stringer Bell (2) - RedCoyote, MagnaofIllusion

Stringer Bell (3) - RedCoyote, MagnaofIllusion, PeregrineV

Stringer Bell (4) - RedCoyote, MagnaofIllusion, PeregrineV, Drunken Piper

Stringer Bell (5) - RedCoyote, MagnaofIllusion, PeregrineV, Drunken Piper, EtherealCookie

As of that Vote-Count Stringer became the leading wagon over Fourseen. And from this point Junpei and NoPoint (confirmed Town) become counter wagons

Stringer Bell (6) - RedCoyote, MagnaofIllusion, PeregrineV, Drunken Piper, EtherealCookie, FourseenCircumstance
Junpei (5) - SlySly, springlullaby, diddin, Ghostlin, Furcolow
nopointinactingup (4) - DrippingGoofball, Magister Ludi, Toogeloo, implosion

Stringer Bell (5) - MagnaofIllusion, PeregrineV, Drunken Piper, EtherealCookie, FourseenCircumstance
Junpei (4) - SlySly, springlullaby, diddin, Furcolow
nopointinactingup (4) - DrippingGoofball, Magister Ludi, Toogeloo, implosion

Stringer Bell (6) - MagnaofIllusion, PeregrineV, Drunken Piper, EtherealCookie, FourseenCircumstance, Furcolow
nopointinactingup (4) - DrippingGoofball, Magister Ludi, Toogeloo, implosion
Junpei (3) - SlySly, springlullaby, Ghostlin

Stringer Bell (8) - MagnaofIllusion, PeregrineV, Drunken Piper, EtherealCookie, FourseenCircumstance, projectmatt, Bunnylover, RedCoyote
nopointinactingup (5) - DrippingGoofball, Magister Ludi, Toogeloo, implosion, Furcolow
Junpei (3) - SlySly, springlullaby, Ghostlin

This last vote count is when the wagon tops out and Kdub makes his play (or close enough for my purposes here).

Players strongly on the wagon as it grew and who get a ‘Get out of Jail free’ card from me today

– Peregrine, EC, Fourseen,

Players who either abandoned Stringer or pushed NoPoint / Junpei when things were tight (and thus are Temiati suspects)

– RedCoyote, SlySly, Spring, diddin, Ghostlin, MagisterLudi, Toog, Implosion

[MagnaofIllusion]

Pass / Not Passed List

–

Passed an Ability

– MoI, Kdub,

Did not Pass an Ability

– Magister, Implosion, Fourseen

--

VOTE: Ghostlin. Should have happened at the end of the Day yesterday. Anyone who happens to be Town and pushed on Furc as opposed to Ghost needs to sheep someone with sense.

--

Also, I have an aching suspicion that it's a multiball game. Stringer died even though he had a hider. I mean, he was scum - but still managed to die even though he had a hider ability. That means one of a couple things... either he hid behind someone who died, or he hid behind scum of another faction.

I mean, the first one is possible... but the odds that he hid behind DGB or drunken piper are lower than the odds that he hid behind DGB, drunken piper, or however many other people.

I’m not sure what the bolded is supposed to imply but it looks but it is meaningless. Either Stringer hid behind alternate scum or he hid behind either Piper or DGB. Speculating beyond that is pointless at this stage. He’s dead.

--

Two most important votecounts, in my opinion. Crypto wagon, and nopoint wagon probably contain one scum each. I'd put higher belief in the crypto containing one, considering I know I am town and that leaves only two players, toog or implosion, as scum candidates.

The only person not on the StringerBell wagon that was on the crypto wagon is the diddin-chkflip slot. (which seems statistically abnormal)

Why you think the cypto wagon is at all relevant compared to the Furc / Ghostlin wagons at the end of the Day I don’t get. Why don’t you elaborate.

[MagnaofIllusion]

My ability was Reroute, which allowed me to reroute a player's cycling choice. I rerouted KDub's Day Kill to myself, and as you can see, I prematurely detonated all over whispersilk. Afterwards, I cycled it to DGB, which she didn't have on her at the time of death, so likely it hit the void, or someone took it from her or me during the cycling (though, since my ability was Reroute, that would require a second routing ability). The ability to Day Kill is now expended with my shot (there was only one bullet left).

A good chunk of the case on Stringer was him role-fishing my "anti-town" role yesterday. Clearly, if we were scum-buddies, this wouldn't be a necessary point for him to inquire upon as he would know what my role was. But, whatev's.

Well let's see what develops with this.

In the meantime I'll just address the bolded as it is pure crap. The big part of Stringer's case was his 'Speed of the Wagon, oh no!" obv-scum two step with Warriormode and Fourseen. And his subsequent lurkage and scummy play. You pretty much don't get any Towniness with what you wrote. Whatevs indeed.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Pass / Not Passed List

–

Passed an Ability

– MoI, Kdub, Toog

Did not Pass an Ability

– Magister, Implosion, Fourseen, Projectmatt

[MagnaofIllusion]

From my overnight notes -

From Ghostlin / Furc wagons

–

Suspect – DGB, Magister, Toog

Suspect if Ghostlin is scum – SlySly, Bunny, RedCoyote, Wazz, Chkflip

Since DGB flipped Town (note to Dead QT - you really played badly DGB) so this is another subset of my suspicions.

--

I said a good chunk, not a big part. Stringer got a lot of early suspicion due to his fishing.

Lulz. No, he didn't. Never amassed more than two votes before I picked up on his scummy play an started actually banging the drum on him.

As Magna should be able to attest to... yes.

Nope, don't ever remember you playing obv-scum as Town. Sorry Charlie ... you stink of scum.

--

Projectmatt would be getting heat from me for his "Oh my god you shot Whisper" before the flip but he gets a pass for today. Still scummy just like Magister though.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You guys are analyzing the wrong wagons bee tee dubz.Stringer was scum, and was close to lynched yesterday. Players that caused Furc's lynch to succeed are where suspicions should start.

No, you really have no idea what you are talking about. The counterwagons to Stringer are a good hunting ground and I did look at the Ghostlin / Furc wagons. It's why I suspect you so much since you were scummily placed in both those scenarios.

--

Preview Edit -

I'm hurt you don't remember me striking you in Metropolis.

I don't really consider that a game given it was from DERPER Charlie. Were you Town there? Regardless you also have looked scummy just like Brightest Day Toog so that's hardly a convincing argument.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I was theorizing that SlySly was playing scum trying to push on an easy mislynch for Whispersilk, which made me sort of think Whisper was town. Seeing her shot within the first few posts was agitating, yeah.

Um, what?

We have loads of useful wagon information with NoPoint, Furc, DGB and Piper all flipping Town and Stringer flipping scum.

Tons of suspect characters from the end of Day wagon that lynched Obv-Town Furc over scumtastic VT Ghostlin. Including uber-lurker Whispersilk.

And you are 'upset' because you had some little theory that scum SlySly was pushing a wagon (that went nowhere, BTW) on Whisper?

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Ghostlin

Tons of people I will be happy to see dead still, including Toog. More thougthts in the AM after sleep.

[MagnaofIllusion]

There's a few things that are nagging me here, acutally. You see, I never voted for Stringer and rode Junpei erratically the beginning of the day and Furc throught the end of the day. Also, DGB, who is now dead would fit on his Temiati list. Also the person that advocated we jump off the Stringer list was MoI, and MoI's biggest...I'm going to use opposition here as the word is now dead. Also, Magna's the one who advocated we jump off the Stringer lynch in the first place.

If I didn't believe Mafia could have an orgy of evidence, I'd be voting MoI right now. I'm acutally going to do something smart here and wait for more information on the pass/did not pass lists to finish.

hahahaha ... seriously this is great!

I'll respond when I get a chance but there are so many horrible, horrible elements to this post it makes me chuckle.

Afraid to actually commit to a vote for me Ghostlin? Why is that?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@KDub

- Let's be clear - the whole point of your 'These tail wagon votes are bad' has to operate under the premise that Ghostlin is scum.

Please confirm that is your stance. Thanks!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Pass / Not Passed List

–

Passed an Ability

– MoI, Kdub, Toog (claims pass to Void), Junpei, chkflip, warriormode

Did not Pass an Ability

– Magister, Implosion, Fourseen, Projectmatt, Bunnylover, SlySly, RedCoyote, Ghostlin, PeregrineV

--

I love the little Toog / RedCoyote / Ghoslin ‘circle the wagons’ posting we have been seeing.

I also like Ghostlin’s “Why you abandon Fourseen vote .. others not vote yet … you scum”. Trying to lynch yet another Town VI Ghostlin? Did your taste for Town blood not get satisfied with the terrible, terrible Furc lynch?

--

Nah, way too arbitrary. All three players on the top part jumped off and on the wagon. You're singling out a specific time for no particular reason except to satisfy a confirmation bias.

Nope, but thanks for playing. My summaries presented here is based on significantly more than that. I do appreciate your need to discredit though.

Toogeloo is now a stable townread of mine, although I agree that it would've been nice to hear something more from whisper.

Junpei’s already covered this but I find it fascinating that you give a ‘Town’ read to player with Toog’s Day 1 play, who redirected a power to himself, and who shot Town (not good Town clearly, but not scum).

I have called you out here and here, but your insincere push of Ghostlin is putting me over the top.

Please solidify for the record – you have a solid Town read on obv-scum Ghost, right? I want you to firmly commit to a position.

Yeah, this is more well put together than I could've come up with. The biggest odd note in the post is definitely the fact that using abandoning the SB wagon as potential evidence of scumminess puts targets on MoI. He leaves himself off the list, but those who he puts on there are people he thought were scum before the day was over anyways. It's very dishonest.

Hmmm … so you ignore context also given that the Stringer wagon disintegrated due to his claim. Noted. Also – I love that you would expect anyone to consider themselves a suspect, Town or scum.

--

There's a few things that are nagging me here, acutally. You see, I never voted for Stringer and rode Junpei erratically the beginning of the day and Furc throught the end of the day. Also, DGB, who is now dead would fit on his Temiati list. Also the person that advocated we jump off the Stringer list was MoI, and MoI's biggest...I'm going to use opposition here as the word is now dead. Also, Magna's the one who advocated we jump off the Stringer lynch in the first place.

If I didn't believe Mafia could have an orgy of evidence, I'd be voting MoI right now. I'm acutally going to do something smart here and wait for more information on the pass/did not pass lists to finish.

Now that I have time I can properly address all the scummy wonders I see here.

1. So you never voted a solid case on confirmed scum (Stringer), voted Junpei (counterwagon to confirmed Scum), and pushed Furc at deadline (Town). I’m glad you are honest it bothers you that your voting pattern is so scummy.
2. What does it matter that DGB would have fit the Temati list? Not everyone on my radar is scum. Some, like DGB, are going to be bad Town. Undermining with poor logic? Check.
3. Here’s the best part of this “MoI advocated we jump of Stringer scum”. I absolutely adore how cheekily scummy this is. First it ignores that I was THE driving force behind getting Stringer to where he was despite all the resistance. Second it tries to paint my stance that as holder of the Hiding power Stringer should have died today so the Hiding power (very Pro-Town power) could be passed from obv-scum and establish links as something scummy. Yup, scumtastic way to ignore the actual game Ghost.
4. Here’s another dandy – “MoI’s biggest ‘opposition’ is dead so he killed DGB’. Firstly pointless WIFOM NK discussion. Secondly DGB never called me scum … that was me calling her scum. Scummy twisting.
5. In an epic display of rashness tries to use the ‘jump of Stringer’ attack twice in the same post! Well done scum!

Scumtastic all the way around Ghostlin! Good show of being brash as outed scum!

My primary hurdle to saying MoI is scum is I'm having a huge critical problem believing he set all of the above up, and killed

DGB because she was onto him,

and then posted a list that's rather incrimatory of people 'going these people are scum+bad because SB was scum'.

Put up or shut up time Ghostlin – provided one quote from DGB to support the bolded assertion. Because I know you cannot.

Lying scum is lying. It’s so nice!

Then why aren't you voting him over it? If the case is bad and full of crap logic as you say, then shouldn't you be? Saying 'if our positions are reversed, you'd be voting me', acutally is a piece of strained reasoning without a vote.

Nice little scum response here … despite the fact we are in Day 2 of a large theme with multiple scum (like Ghostlin) floating around Junpei is scummy for voting for one suspect while attacking another.

--

I'm liking the Magna hate, and will start a crusade against him if other people's feet are a bit too cold to get it going. Magna is being very manipulative with his posts, and I really, really, think Ghost is town. The fact that he was THIRD person on Stringer yesterday doesn't give him any cookies for Stringer actually flipping scum, especially since Stringer was completely abandoned eventually. I think players farming for attention elsewhere than Stringer are obviously worth attention, but gut hates Magna, and that's enough for me for now.

Vote: Magna

Of course you like the non-existent hate. I’m on to you.

Another example of the vague, tainted language attack of “his post have an undercurrent of manipulation”. It’s scummy of course because you can’t actually point to a single post and describe why it is scummy. Nope, just the classic old rhetoric.

And yes – my solid scum-hunting and pretty much Day-long push on scum Stringer means I get to call scummy people like you scum.

If someone comes to the conclusion that my actions are not possible for scum, and call me town of it, then that is his prerogative as well. It's not like Coyote is defending me. He is simply stating he has a town read on me.

Actually, RedCoyote’s little ‘Funny vote chkflip, where is your real one’ is absolutely a defense of you. Whether it comes from bad Town or chainsawing partner is left to be seen.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So let’s look at Toog’s play from Day 1, shall we

–

Luckily lurker Toog’s ISO will be easy to review since it’s low on actual content posts.

I also typically give off a scummy vibe in my posts according to a lot of people I play with, apparently something about the way I talk. This is part of my real life personality probably because I don't typically think about feelings before I say something. I speak off the cuff. I don't build a case (right away), I give gut reactions to pretty much everything, sometimes without thinking it through. But this goes hand in hand with me being a good read of motivation.

As stated before – “I’m always scummy so you can’t suspect me”. Plus a little dash of “I go on gut without thinking, so don’t ask me to actually make cases or explin”. Not anything Town should bother saying.

I should also state that I am a bit of a loose canon in games of organization. I like to do my own thing, and find that a little chaos tends to monkey wrench (and make more interesting) the game a bit. The main reason for this is that scum are already informed, so I don't like to aid that in any way. Sometimes it's fruitless, but other times it has worked to my advantage.

As stated before –“ I’ll do what I want no matter how scummy or anti-Town it is.” Again, Town has no reason to specify that they are going to act this way in advance.

ISO 8-10

are an interesting little bit – a little bit of undermining where he tries to reference a past game where my ‘suspicion’ didn’t work out well for me as scum. Oops, except I wasn’t even in that game at all. It was Spyrex. Honest mistake, clearly MagnaofIlllusion and Spryrex are easy to mix up.+

yes.

... I mean no.

wait...

Is this a trick question?

Classic ‘joking’ response to being directly asked about being scum. WIFOM ahoy .. no scum would ever joke and say they were scum.

Junpei and Ludi were the first two names that came to town about discussion of current lynch prospects. I hadn't even realized Stringer had as many votes as he has akrewed.

Yeah, Bunny isn't getting the love I want her to get.

Unvote;
Vote: nopoint

The first part is a response to me as to why he didn’t list Stringer as a current lynch prospect when he was the leading wagon. Note he ‘didn’t know’ Stringer was under pressure. Doesn’t make any comment about whether he thinks said pressure is Good / Bad / Indifferent.

Then he votes NoPoint (Town, as we know) for Gut. Yup, one of the direct counterwagons to Scum Stringer at that stage.

I'm pretty sure I gave just as much reasoning for either of you to possibly be scum.

I think I said you I felt you had underlying motives in your posts, and that I didn't like nopoint because he likes Bunny.

Here he clarifies – he voted for NoPoint because NoPoint had a Town read on Bunny. Yet didn’t we just see this in regards to Townreads –

Shooting nopoint and then lynching Stringer would give us a ton of discussion for tomorrow.

Here he wants Town shot and only wants to lynch Stringer ‘for information’. Not because he is scum. Nice safe way to advocate for when Stringer actually does flip but without actually having to push or support it. Nice touch.

This sounds like a scum ability in my opinion as it allows for scum to circumvent the poisoning and keep an ability on themselves for 2 Nights.

Nice little scummy attack here on NoPoint’s claim – the set-up specifically has no inherent ‘scum or Town’ abilities. Yet here he intimates NoPoint is scum for having an ability.

Vote: Furculow

Least liked person on the previous nopoint wagon.

And this is what we get after NoPoint flips Town. He votes the easy target (VI) because Furc was on a bad wagon … the same wagon Toog himself was supporting. Hypocricy away!!!!

--

Overall Toog’s Day 1 is fairly scummy. Pushes on Bunnylover (traditionally weak player) and two Town. Ignores Stringer (confirmed Scum) more or less completely and does some MAJOR buddying to DGB. And has lots of fluff and a nice smattering of scummy little post.

I’d certainly support Toog today. He’s not as outright scummy as Ghostlin but is a strong second tier.

@Toog

- What happened to that Bunnylover strong suspicion from Day 1? Forget it completely? What did Bunny do that makes him Town now?

[MagnaofIllusion]

So, I'm skeptical of magna right now. I'll try to elaborate on it in a week after midterms, but in short: He's still alive on day two something about his scumhunting feels like it's just "going through the motions." It feels like he's just trying to find reasons to call people scummy without really trying to find who the scum are. Toog is kind of right there in that he feels a bit manipulative.

Yep, I’m certainly not trying to find and hang scum. And my scum-hunting on Stringer is further indication that your theory is correct …

Magna: how surprised are you that DGB flipped town? Why do you think that anyone would kill DGB, who you were nearly guaranteed to push on today? And most importantly, why are you appealing to your own authority:

Very surprised. Given how terrible her reads were (NoPoint and Furc are scum – called Stringer Town who I thought was pretty clearly scum), the manner in which she pushed said reads (basically nothing) and how she immediately distanced from both NoPoint and Furc before the Mod post screamed scum.

Because they wanted to kill her? I have no clue. She looked like obv-scum who needed to be lynched at the end of Day1 to me. Only read I’ve been wrong on so far (that is publicly known, anyway).

Appealing to my own authority? Generic Wikitell away!!! Seriously – I was fucking right about Stringer and I’m going to find the partners who made the lynch difficult. Does that frighten you?

I kind of want to see where this will go

Just like you wanted to see where you vote would go on Town NoPoint?

And no response to Junpei’s case on you? Hmmmm …

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, I will say now that you catching Stringer means almost nothing to me as far as your ability to catch scum go. Andrew94 is bad at mafia, and he got nominated to win an award for his ability to catch scum. He's awful; I honestly don't know what they were thinking, but he got lucky, and bottom line is that just because you caught one guy doesn't mean I'm about to trust you to catch the rest.

Bully for you. Meanwhile I do care more about my scum-hunting than yours. Funny how that works. Everyone believes in themselves (generally, there are exceptions) more than others.

--

So being right about one person as scum gives you more authority on your own reads? No. If DGB were still alive, you could use that exact same reasoning to push for her lynch. It's flawed reasoning.

I was right on more than just Stringer. I read both NoPoint and Furc correctly as Town. And I'm as positive as I can get that I'm right on Ghostlin also.

If you want to argue that scum partners to Stringer aren’t going to be found on the NoPoint / Junpei wagons please continue. You’d be dead wrong, but please continue.

--

I can tell Magna didn't read all of the posts, otherwise he would of seen the trope information for Orgy of Evidence, including the parts in the same goddamn post where I say it's unlikely he's scum. What's he do? Go for as many misreps as possible. Also, unlike Implosion/Toog, I'm not voting for you, and haven't acutally --called-- you scum.

Oh, I read your posts. I just don’t really care about some link you found on TVTropes. I can find posts all over the Internet … none of which matter to the fact at hand … you are trying to avoid the content of my posts showing your scummy play and instead are attacking secondary issues like I have lots of examples (which, ironically, is more reason you are scum not less).

Why does you not calling me scum mean I shouldn’t think you are? Please clue me in to that theory champ!

No response on finding a DGB quote calling me scum? Ding … lying scum caught lying!

I can tell you now that while Magna may be town, he couldn't find scum with a Cop role and a map to guide him.

Lulz. Yup … I caught Stringer and you pushed on Town and I’m the one who couldn’t find scum with a Cop Role and map.

You are terrible when you are outed scum, you know that Ghostlin.

So Junpei's a VI? Damn, considering his posting style (complete sentences, somewhat good reasoning on the implosion case, somewhat decent if wobbly reasoning), I wouldn't call him a VI at all...since exactly what I'm doing there is accusing Junpei of the cognitive dissonance of jumping off a wagon he'd said he'd ride the end of Day 1.

Lulz, again. Your reading skills are clearly impaired when you are angry about being yet again caught.

Fourseen is the VI. The point of the comment was that you attacked Junpei for not going after VI Fourseen again today.

Are you actually going to show where the claimed misreps are or have you given up?

[MagnaofIllusion]

1) I doubt sincerely the 7-10 people you've called out today are all scum, MoI. To the point that you've called most of the people who didn't agree with the Stringer lynch, irregardless of their other actions, or motivations, out. For a guy who likes posting the phrase 'where's the scum motivation' a lot, you acutally don't bother to dig for it and go into a VCA orgy.
2) Funny, you're sure acting accordingly. In fact, you were going to be screaming for DGB's lynch today, except she's sadly deceased. And Town.
3) You were the third vote on the wagon. Stop pretending you were it's archtect, and everyone jumped off to preserve a PR at your behest. In fact EC (who?) and RC were on the wagon before you according to the vote count. Yes, you may have said the most words, but you weren't the only one who found SB scummy, and if you found SB's wagon the least credible of scum, I think you're smart enough to jump that wagon's bones. (Also, scum creating wagons on each other DOES happen.)
4-5) Really are rhetoric, really aren't revelant and really show you didn't do your homework. Since you won't follow links, go to tvtropes.org, type in the words 'orgy of evidence' and look at the entry.

Honestly,

I don't think you're scum mostly because everything last night wants me to believe you're scum, along with SB's ability going to the Void and DGB's flip.

Think that's some super scummy WIFOM? Don't give a shit. I'm going to go back to ignoring your screaming about how I'm scum.

1. Who said all 7-10 are? Strawman right there. That’s the pool of people where we are very likely to find scum. Tons of scum motivation for pushing a counterwagon to your partner when things are tight. Are you trying to say that scum aren’t going to be found there. Again, I’m going to spend time looking at ISOs and digging. Also, didn’t you call about 6 to 9 players scum Day 1? Yup, all of them aren’t likely scum so we shouldn’t have bothered to listen to you either, right?
2. What’s the point here? That I shouldn’t have wanted the player who pushed lynch attempts on two Town players, immediately disowned those deaths BEFORE the Mod confirm and called my top suspect Town lynched as possible scum? And again – your NK WIFOM bomb right there “MoI wanted DGB lynched, DGB had a Town read on MoI, so he must have killed her” is fantastic. Especially in light of how it conflicts with your “I’m not saying you are scum” stance.
3. Nice. Yes, I was the architect of that Wagon. Keep trying to throw irrelevancies at it (you were 3rd thus you couldn’t be the driver) at me. Now I like how you transition to “Bussing” in this post. Nice touch.
4-5. Can’t respond, won’t both. Nice.

The bolded is scumtastic. Elaborate on why Stringer’s ability going to the Void somehow incriminates me. And if a player I suspect flipping Town makes me scum your suspicion of Furc must make you scum to, huh.

Yes, continue to try to ignore me. I’m not going away.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Where... did... i say anything even vaguely like that second line.

Do you disagree? I’m going to follow my instincts and find scum as per usual. You don’t like it? Oh well.

--

You really should learn to read things outside of mafiascum. You occassionally learn things. Quoting from TV tropes, I'll go slow since you're new at this:

Ah you make me chuckle Ghostlin. Sad little scum Ghostlin, caught and unable to do anything other than use insults to try to detail focus of his scumminess.

Bored of the 'I found Stringer so I'm obvious town' argument. It's a fallacy. You're good enough to know it's a pile of shit fallacy to the point I'm wondering if you're doing this as parody of acutal Town scumhunting or you're trying to channel someone like Fate. If you're scum...well, finding Stringer isn't hard, and if you're town, every player, including vezok, chesskid, and werewolf have been right at least ONCE in their careers.

I’m bored of your strawmanning and attempts to derail the topic. Will you stop? Not likely.

Meanwhile it’s funny that you again try the insult method. What does it say about you then that you’ve only found ‘Town’ in your flipped suspects? That you are worse than Vezok and Chesskid? That is, of course, sarcasm. But it’s as meaningful as you rpost above.

Fact – I developed a pretty strong case on you Day 1. The end of Day push on Town Furc is a pretty solid sign that you are scum bailed out by a combination of your partners and foolish Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

EBWOP: I concede your point that DGB never called you scum, however she was one of the few town members last night to call you on your crap.

Please direct me to what 'crap' she called me on. If it's my scum read on her - I don't deny it was wrong. I tend to get scum reads on Town players who push on players I find Town and actively distance from dead players they called scum before the Mod-flips.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Really? You want an explanation on how you explain to town how that particular power (which was the only reason SB was kept alive) going to the void in a possible muitiple scum game after you point out it's utility that it is in fact a useful town ability and the exact person holding said ability is now dead and unable to pass it to anyone on town?

Here's some scum motivation:
1) You are an opposing mafia member or SK and don't want it passed.
2) Deleting what's said about the item going to the void for a minute, you are on the same team as stringer, arranged the wagon and then urged it to dissolve. The fact that he was dead and scum was beyond your control; you didn't do the shooting, but you'd rather forget you were the one who saved stringer.

Yep, I absolutely want to get into it. Because you are going to need to explain the scum motivation to me.

Do you disagree that it was a Strong power? Yes or No.

On your scum motivations –

1. Ok, how exactly do I make him die under this case? I can’t directly kill him. Are you saying I enticed him to hide behind me or a theoretical partner? Or that I was able to perfect assess where he would hide and killed that person? Your point here makes no sense. If I was opposing scum the smart play have never let him not be shot / lynched yesterday. Because that would have accomplished two things at once – taking out a suspect and ridding the game of a powerful Town role.
2. Ok, so it’s bussing? Ok. And let’s look at the disconnect in your arguments – before I wasn’t very important to the Stringer wagon … but now I am for purposes of this argument. You can’t keep your stances straight Ghostlin.

That’s further evidence you are scum. You attack from whatever vantage point suits you in the moment as opposed to attacking from a single line of thinking.

First I wasn’t important to the Stringer lynch. But now I was and it was bussing.

Also still waiting for an non scummy WIFOM reason why DGB being dead incriminates me more than you. Because the more you lean on that the more I get the feeling you were involved with the kill just to use it as a Frame up job.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, is this the use of associative alignment tells on two players who have not flipped that I'm reading? No this is not a rhetorical question.

No. What the fuck are you talking about?

At the end of Day 1 I found DGB, who pushed on both NoPoint and Furc (who I read as Town) and distanced from her suspicion BEFORE Kunkstar posted their alignment flips to be scummy for that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Do you disagree? I’m going to follow my instincts and find scum as per usual. You don’t like it? Oh well.

Seriously. What the fuck is this. You're putting fucking words in my mouth. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING VAGUELY LIKE THIS:

If you want to argue that scum partners to Stringer aren’t going to be found on the NoPoint / Junpei wagons please continue. You’d be dead wrong, but please continue.

I NEVER ARGUED ANYTHING LIKE THAT. DON'T SAY THAT I'M FUCKING ARGUING THAT AND THEN SAY THAT I'M WRONG FOR ARGUING IT. that's literally complete bullshit. you're putting words in my mouth, calling those words scummy, and then calling me scummy for saying WORDS THAT YOU PULLED OUT OF THE FUCKING ETHER.

Then instead of throwing a temper tantrum answer me these questions.

1. Do you think Stringer partner scum are likely to be found pushing counterwagons at critical moments when Stringer was under fire but not the clear leader?
2. If you do what was the purpose of going on about 7v7? I correctly identified Stringer scum and am planning on finding his partners. Again, I don't care if that rubs you the wrong way in my presentation of facts.
3. If you don't why do you think that?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, I'm going to bed and am giving the thread a breather. Hopefully we can get some other input.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Kdub

- Who was your original target pass target?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Pass / Not Passed List

–

Passed an Ability

– MoI, Kdub, Toog (claims pass to Void), Junpei, chkflip, warriormode

Did not Pass an Ability

– Magister, Implosion, Fourseen, Projectmatt, Bunnylover, SlySly, RedCoyote, Ghostlin, PeregrineV, wazzatron

Those not on record (and still alive)

– Sinestro, Springlullaby, EtherealCookie

--

MoI: Do you believe that people should accept what you say because you've been right, and to some degree follow you based off of that?

I think people should judge the content of my posts and make their own decision. That said I think it is generally good Town play to give more credence to players who are successful in their reads and scum-hunting than to those who are not.

What does it mean to be an architect of a wagon, just so that I'm on the same page?

By that I mean the person primarily responsible for building a wagon on a player. Usually it is by building a good case, but there are other ways to assume a leadership role on a wagon.

Not all wagons have to have one architect, or any at all. It’s possible two or more players are fairly equally responsible for pushing a lynch / wagon. It’s possible that no one person is really the force behind a lynch / wagon (althougth those generally tend to be unsuccessful as far as catching scum, IMO).

You said that you get scum reads on town players who push on (ergo find scummy) players who you find town. "and actively distance from dead players they called scum before the Mod-flips." is a separate point, I am addressing the first part of the sentence, which is most certainly different and most certainly associative tells on two players who haven't flipped based on alignments.

No, it isn’t a separate point. That whole string is intended as a single, cohesive point that I found DGB scummy for her Day 1 player. If you want to say I butchered the grammar so be it. It’s not two separate points.

MoI, another question: did you misrepresent Implosion in the second section he quotes of post 1232?

No, not in my opinion. I wanted to get to the heart of whatever point Implosion was avoiding – that Stringer partners were likely to be found in the counterwagons. The whole string of 7v7 or whatever he was going on about was, in my mind, rather irrelevant and focusing on style as opposed to substance.

--

I believe SB's ability went to the Inactivity Zone, not the Void.

Great. Who is scum SlySly? I seem to recall you were anti-Ghostlin scum and Pro-Furc scum yesterday. What are your current opinions?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Spring

- as you catch up remember to indicate whether you passed a Power N1.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Pass / Not Passed List

–

Passed an Ability

– MoI, Kdub, Toog (claims pass to Void), Junpei, chkflip, warriormode

Did not Pass an Ability

– Magister, Implosion, Fourseen, Projectmatt, Bunnylover, SlySly, RedCoyote, Ghostlin, PeregrineV, wazzatron, Sinestro

Those not on record (and still alive)

–Springlullaby, EtherealCookie

--

Chkflip’s

1249

is bad. Kdub has elaborated why well enough it doesn’t bear repeating.

@Any possible information roles

– You should disclose whatever results you got last-night today if it clears someone (Cop Innocent) or condems someone (Cop Guilty, tracking someone to DGB / Drunken, tracking Stringer to someone).

--

Why not? Take the flipside of the argument. If you, as town, have the power to keep a Vig power out of scum hands, do you take it?

Of course. And then you shoot your scum suspects for reasons you formed yourself. Not “FOR DGB” in a way that looks to shuff off responsibility for shot. Toog said absolutely nothing about Whisper lurking and just piggy-backed off DGB.

And also Toog didn’t bother to ask for a claim from Whisper or even try to see if she had cycling info to share. Both of which are at best Anti-Town.

Why not Bunny? Why not me when he said he ALMOST did? And why give him a Town read based on what I wrote. Hint – ‘because scum wouldn’t shoot like that’ is WIFOM.

I have a town read on Ghostlin. Period. It's not a "solid" read, and he certainly isn't "obv-scum". I mean, I guess he's as obvious scum as DGB was, right?

Yup, just like Furc was scum right Oh look, you were wrong also

I mean, everything else aside, you do realize that statistically it's more probable for Furc and Ghostlin to both be town than it is for one of them to be scum?

Appeal to Statistics? Ding. Without looking at game-play that’s a valid statement. But of course we have all Day 1 to look at Ghostlin’s scummy play. I understand you disagree.

Why do you think, if both Furc and Ghostlin are Town, that so much push back and forth happened at the end of Day 1? Scum has absolutely no reason to stick their necks out if either result is a plus for them. Do you think everyone who shifted votes late is Town then? Who are scum on those wagon?

You sit here and say, "everyone who did X is more likely to be scum" when you know damn well that you did X without so much as a mention as to why your case is exceptional. Then you come crying when I call you out for it? It's dishonest and you were caught on it. Deal with it.

Explain clearly because you’ve vagued this up enough that it is unclear what you are accusing me of? Jumping off Stringer post-claim? If so your assertion here is incorrect. I didn’t attack anyone for jumping off Stringer after he claimed Hider. Not lynching or vigging him afte that claim was Pro-Town. Just those who jumped off BEFORE the claim when things were tight. Reading is tek.

What are you talking about? You made the lynch difficult, MoI.

Nope. Not in the least. Why say things that are clearly not accurate?

--

I never said Bunny was town, nor did I say Bunny was no longer a suspicion. Bunny has dropped off my radar a bit due to other things I have wanted to take care of, and to some degree that nopoint flipped town. Why? Are you thinking Bunny is scum? [cwutididthar]

Nope, I’m prodding you to take actual positions because you are active lurking and high on my suspect lists. You wouldn’t have said anything about this change had I not prompted you.

What ‘other things’ did you want to take care of?

Why does NoPoint flipping Town mean your suspicions of Bunnylover should lessen? You suspected Bunny for other reasons and NoPoint because he thought Bunny was Town. Your supsicion ran the opposit direction yo are trying to use as support now. If NoPoint being Town means his thoughts should hold more weight why aren’t you giving any thought to his scum reads posted right before he flipped?

--

What does it have to do with my lack of apparent sincerity? Bluntly, this is me, and this is the first post you've two bothered to make Day 2 and you start with a statement of 'his posts aren't sincere in their defense.' What would be more sincere? I've pointed MoI is continuing to try to lead town on a fallacy, and one of the most vocal posters that didn't agree with MoI was dead, that MoI practically had an orgasm about lynching, no less, and flipped town. (That's your answer.)

Once again the Day 1 case on you has nothing to due with the fallacy you are screaming about. Neither do your scummy posts surrounding NK speculation or anything else.

Your play is scummy. It was yesterday. It is today. You need rope.

Continue to strawman and do whatever you can to suggest that my strong opinion on where Stringer’s partners are going to be found means everything I say isn’t worth listening to.


--

MAGNA can you put in a neat, easy post why you think your scumreads are indeed scum? You don't need to bring up quotes, I just want to know the reasons. And i get bored of quotewalls

Um, no. I don’t care about your requirements. I’ll summarize my pools of suspect when I feel it helpful.

So you disagree with my Toog is Scum stance. If you agree that Ghostlin is scum why aren’t you voting him?

I seem to remember you lumping her in a list of "DO NOT LYNCH" @Stringer... hmmm

I meant later on about the SB wagon if that part was directed at me; he put up a list saying "DO NOT LYNCH, OBV TOWN" or something similar, then came in this day phase and was screaming about how he was 100% right on SB and should be sheeped for that reason

Please find support for this lie. And I call it a lie because I know I NEVER, EVER called Stringer Town. I said he shouldn’t be lynched because his claimed power was too important for Town to lose due to lynch.

And if you can’t find that quote please explain why your stance makes any sense.

Wazzatron is scum, I was talking to andy about it yesterday; nothing about his posts seem town motivated, at all. There's something incredibly off, and I can't quite put my finger on it. I really hope its not a predefined thought on him thats making everythinglook scummy to me, but damn that iso is pretty bad, magna what are your thoughts on him?

Wazz is in my pool of suspects. His position and play at the end of Day 1 regarding Furc and Ghostlin is suspect if Ghostlin is scum (as I believe). His attack on Kdub for the NoPoint kill based on vote-counts was completely terrible. He made several other bad statements based on fautly logic also Day1.

MoI, has your opinion on ghosty changed at all? Have you second guessed yourself anytime recently? if so what triggered it?

No, I still think Ghostlin is scum. Are you not reading? I think that’s pretty clear. The case from Day 1 combined with his escape from lynch with Town Furc being lynched in his stead really makes that pretty clear.

I’m not sure exactly what you are asking in questions 2 and 3.

--

Obviously, I'm not a fan of Toog.

Than riddle me this – why are you focusing on everyone other than Toog as opposed to making a case and pushing for his lynch.

Your play indicated you’ve parked your vote and aren’t going to do anything to convince anyone to join it so far. Don’t see that as a Town motivated play.

MoI likes to stay, or appear to stay, busy throwing things out and seeing what sticks. He made his lists and compared his lists. He didn't review the actual timing of events when summarizing his analysis, he was either gut shotting or scummily creating a heading and throwing some names under it. For instance, in the following post, MoI has included me in a list where I do not match the heading. I never voted SB and my vote on Junpei was early in the game and my suspicions of Junpei were day long, not a "tight time" reactionary push, like he has implied by including me in this list. I haven't looked back to see if the others in MoI's list fit the heading.

You actually do match the heading very well. You never voted for SB and sat your vote on Junpei (who I have a solid Town read on). You were one of the constants on the opposing wagons to Stringer when the pressure was on him. That’s certainly pushing Junpei when things were tight, regardless of when your suspicion on him first germinated.

Do you disagree?

--

Perhaps. They could also be the leaders, or have been bussing. The position of a given player with respect to a wagon alone is close to meaningless. I mean, i really doubt that every stringerbuddy was in the position with respect to the stringer wagon that you elaborated on, for example.

Who said all the Stringer partners were in that group? You accused me of putting words in your mouth and here you are doing the exact same thing.

Having a pool where you will likely find buddies does not mean all of them are there. It just means that the odds of finding Stringer buddies is better in the coutner-wagons than in the population as a whole.

The point of talking about 7 for 7 is that you're trying to derive authority from having been right about a read on stringer. Having been right about stringer does not give you more authority than anyone else to declare who stringer's scumbuddies are.

[/quote]

This is pointless. No-one has any authority in a Mafia game at all. That’s not how the game works and you’ve been around long enough to know that I’m going to actively push my suspects. That’s how Mafia is played.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Since Ghostlin isn't getting any traction today I'm going to move to one of my other suspects for the time being.-

UNVOTE: Ghostlin
VOTE: RedCoyote

[MagnaofIllusion]

Better move me to the top category. I did not pass an ability on purpose, so I guess I passed it to the Void.

WTF is this?

I

SPECIFICALLY

said that this was not a good move. The more passes the better the information long term to Town. Why did you do this?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Do you want my ability and target now, or are we waiting until tomorrow?

If you passed to the Void there is absolutely no point in waiting unless you stupidly sent a realy Pro-Town ability like Doc / Cop / Etc there.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey Sinestro - there are questjons waiting to be answered by you ... don't go back to powerlurking like you did Day 1.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOD – Please prod EC.

--

Pass / Not Passed List

–

Passed an Ability

– MoI, Kdub, Toog (claims pass to Void), Junpei, chkflip, warriormode, PeregrineV

Did not Pass an Ability

– Magister, Implosion, Fourseen, Projectmatt, Bunnylover, SlySly, RedCoyote, Ghostlin , wazzatron, Sinestro, Springlullaby

Those not on record (and still alive

) –EtherealCookie

--

MagisterLudi is playing awfully low-key today. That dings my radar.

--

the quote thing was my bad, i apolgize (sb part), you never said he was town but you did say DO NOT LYNCH, i processed it as "hes town"

So now that you realize your stance was incorrect what does that change of your opinions on Ghostlin? You said yourself that one of the reasons you read was changing from scum to not on him was that I called Stringer Town. Which I didn’t.

--

Way to continue the pattern of jumping onto easy wagons. GG scum.

And yet your vote sits on Fourseen. Who again isn’t scum. He’s a VI and his play is fairly readable if you make the effort. Despite this little gambit who ELSE besides Fourseen is scum?

What are your thoughts on your wagon-mate RedCoyote?

--

I cannot, in any way, see this as being useful to town.
When DrippingGoofBall claimed his ability destroyer, I figured if he's telling the truth, my ability would go away, and if he dies, I might get his, and if he's lying, then no big deal, since I planned to cycle it to the Void anyway.

I have problems with this on multiple levels.

1. You made a decision unilaterally that an ability couldn’t possibly help Town when clearly it can. Regardless if scum get their hands on it the abilities MUST be passed and scum can’t continue to hold it themselves or fact death. That’s at best an Anti-Town decision if you are telling the truth.
2. You later say make the argument that it would be powerful in the hands of scum as they could target their kill and steal any abilities the target had. And DGB was a scum-kill and you targeted her. I can see the possibility that you are scum who didn’t believe DGB’s claim, tried to take the ability she had, and it backfired (yours getting destroyed since the flip proves she still held it at death). If scum have Daytalk your late reveal could be the result of fear / knowledge that other players have the ability to see into the void / tracker or other results and your partners convinced you to fess up in advance.
3. Regardless if you are Town you’ve put us in a Bad position. It was a solid scum tactic game 1 to pull what you did. Town now has the choice of either lynching you to prevent scum from doing it down the line and risk a mislynch or to let you off and make any future attempt to hang a player for that bad play more difficult as a standard has been set. For the record this is another reason why Toog’s shot today was stupid – it could have been used on you to set the standard without losing the lynch.
4. That you were unable to find a single Town read you considered a good enough bet to pass to in a game where scum still only account for at most likely 35% of the population.

I’m going to have to take the weekend to think about this.

--

I think his unpredictability frightens you. I don't blame you, because it scares me too. I'll tell you what I told Junpei. You either buy it or you don't. There's only so much debating you can do on an issue like this. Toogeloo took a crazy shot. Would he do that as scum or as town (or something else)?

You are right .. I don’t buy it. And Toog clearly would do it from either alignment. Thus going back to the rest of his play (shown in the review case I made) I think he’s a good scum candidate.

The difference is I'm not parading around as though I'm flawless. The same cannot be said about you.

Never said I was flawless. That’s a bullshit cop out statement. There’s a difference between saying I was correct on multiple reads and saying I’m not wrong on anything and for you to try to assert there isn’t is crap.

My point is, in the end, you cannot say Ghostlin is obvious scum because Furcolow is town, which is what you've been driving at since the day started.

And my point is that I’ve said Ghostlin is scum for many other reasons (my Day 1 case, my refuting his scummy points today) and you are trying to straw-man it by saying it is solely based on the Furc / Ghostlin deadline action.

Who said scum stuck their necks out? Only you have reads that are set in stone. I'd like to think most of the other players have more of an open mind.

That’s dodging the question. I’m going to put it simply you.

WHO IS SCUM ON THE END OF DAY FURC & GHOSTLIN WAGONS AND WHY?

There should be multiple names on this list.

How do you define tight? I see EC jump off of SB at VC7 and not get back on until VC14. FC didn't get on SB until VC15. But these are both exceptions to your rule? And it just so happens that you saw them both as town before all this anyways, right?

See, this is where you argue things in a manner that attempts to undermine (the sarcastic little stinger at the end) that makes me read you as scum. Let’s discuss your response here.

Vote Counts 13, 14 and 15 as they related to the three wagons –

Junpei (4) - SlySly, springlullaby, diddin, Ghostlin
Stringer Bell (4) - RedCoyote, MagnaofIllusion, PeregrineV, Drunken Piper
nopointinactingup (2) - DrippingGoofball, Magister Ludi

Stringer Bell (5) - RedCoyote, MagnaofIllusion, PeregrineV, Drunken Piper, EtherealCookie
Junpei (4) - SlySly, springlullaby, diddin, Ghostlin
nopointinactingup (2) - DrippingGoofball, Magister Ludi

Stringer Bell (6) - RedCoyote, MagnaofIllusion, PeregrineV, Drunken Piper, EtherealCookie, FourseenCircumstance
Junpei (5) - SlySly, springlullaby, diddin, Ghostlin, Furcolow
nopointinactingup (4) - DrippingGoofball, Magister Ludi, Toogeloo, implosion

So you are knocking my ‘giving a pass for today’ to both EC and FC based on the timing. Let’s look.

EC re-votes for Stringer and raised Stringer scum above Junpei and NoPoint (who we know is Town) and also above the fading Fourseen wagon. If he was a likely Stringer partner there is little reason for him to help push his partner. He could have found a reason to vote for either Junpei or NoPoint. So yes, his play in time with the wagons is pretty strong evidence they aren’t partners.

Fourseen votes for Stringer and again helps keep Stinger as the top wagon. Again .. no reason for Stringer partner to make that move.

This is exactly what I mean by tight – multiple competing wagons that were very close (within 2 votes each other). Do you want to say my reasoning here is incorrect? Meanwhile you abandoned the lead wagon on scum (Stringer) by the next vote count to reduce the distance between Stringer and the competing wagons. That I see as scum motivation.

You abandoned the wagon due to the claim. How is that not making things difficult?

This is scummy as all get out. Yes, ignore the realities of the situation and say I made the lynch of Stringer difficult by not wanting him dead because he claimed a Pro-Town Power that could be confirmed by another player the next day.

1. Is that postion scummy?
2. Does that position remove my suspicions about Stringer?
3. Does that position mean my scum-hunting to get him to the point where he was a viable lynch less credible to you?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – Per usual I will be LA from 4pm EST today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Got a generic question for town. PV just did something blantanly anti-town and scummy. Where's the outrage?

Are you reading the game? Because a more than healthy portion of the game has reacted to it. He’s got a number of votes.

My question is – had he not fessed up like that would you have even looked at voting him? It’s a serious question.

Where’s your outrage at Toog’s blatantly Anti-Town immediate Vig shot today? Did I miss that given he admitted to stealing the Gun, shooting for scummy reasons, and passing to DGB who just happens to end up dead?

--

Also, MoI, I read the kdowns games, and FC doesn't perfectly fit the VI bill, so I fail to see your strong opinion that he is town.

At this point Junpei I really don’t care. You aren’t going to change your opinion. But it’s clear to me you are looking for any reason to get back on what I see as a very bad lynch. If you are expecting Fourseen to meet some perfect template of a VI you are fooling yourself. Day 1 should pretty clearly say he’s Town, IMO. The wagon on him developed at a rate you just don’t see on scum. Look how long it took me to rally enough support to make Stringer a viable candidate and the resistance there was. Now look at he relative ease at which Fourseen reached double digits.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Appeal to probability?Single scope comparisons?Come now, you don't expect that to hold any ground with me, or anyone else who is reading closely, do you? I'm honestly surprised that you are using that as an argument as to why someone is quite clearly town.

Junpei do you even know what an Appeal to Probability is? I ask because nothing in any way, shape or form in that post deals with "The odds or so slim that it happened it couldn't have happened". Nothing.

As I said. I don't care what your opinion is regarding Fourseen. Fourseen's play does not come from a scum-intent position and anything you say about 'lack of Town intent' is empty and pointless. You can have made the same argument about Furc. What do you know ... he flipped Town. If you can't develop skills to look beyond the inherent derp I can't help you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

"The wagon on him developed at a rate you just don’t see on scum."

Appeal to probability right here. To clarify, a translated version is provided below:

"It is so unlikely that a wagon would develop at the rate it did on scum, that the person who was wagoned, FourseenCircumstance, could not be scum".

If someone shows no intent, how are they ever to be lynched? Just because Furc flipped town means nothing. They are two different cases. There is no such thing as an "inherent derp", rather there is such a thing as "such awful play that you wonder if the subject is conscious". If I can't kill people for awful play, then I can't kill scum.

No, it isn't. The way wagons build isn't some random process. It's driven by intent and motivation behind each and every vote. Again, if you don't understand that I can't help you here. You are trying somehow to apply probability to something that is not governed by the laws of random occurance.

And once again - there is a difference between bad play and scummy play. Again ... if you can't understand that I can't help you.

And finally ... this isn't a productive discussion. It's completely MD material. You want to discuss it in another area I'm fine to do so. I'm not going to spend any more time on this issue in thread. Want to lynch Fourseen? Make a convincing case that nets enough votes for the lynch. I've yet to see one of those.

[MagnaofIllusion]

It's all about thought processes MoI, if you can't understand that I can't help you. Also, why are you dropping Ghostlin?

vote ghostlin

He needs more pressure.

Passive aggressive fluff. Nice touch.

Oh, so now, after everyone has ignored Ghostlin all day long and I've moved my vote elsewhere to stay productive you want to try to get it going?

1. Where were you at the start of the day?
2. What do you think of RedCoyote?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Welcome IamInnocent …

Note up front – I have seen Warrior’s claim of an effective Guilty on Sinestro. I have some questions for him in this very catchup.

PLEASE DO NOT QUICK-LYNCH SINESTRO. WE NEED TO GET SOME REPLACEMENTS FILLED.

Currently kunkstar is working on two empty slots. There is no Town advantage to have those slots empty going into Night. Firstly it deprives us of time to read said slots. Second if said slots hold any powers they could be lost to the Void via the lack of Cycling choice. That’s something we can’t afford at this stage with multiple Powers already idled.

--

No reason for warrior to lie here, but something's bothering me. Why would SB have used the hide power in the first place if he is scum? What does he gain from it? It's not like he was a very likely vig target (presumably a vig would have let him live to see if he could prove his power) and if there is another scum group, they wouldn't shoot at a claimed hider because they would miss if he hid. I guess maybe the hider was compulsive, which is one way to deal with scum getting certain powers that wouldn't seen so useful for them.

Actually the Hider that Stringer claimed (so, take it with a grain of salt since he is scum) would have prevented all direct actions against him including Cop / Track actions. Very much a solid reason for scum Stringer to want to use it in that case.

--

I know deadline is catching up and it seems like we haven't gotten very far in discussion.
SO here's some valuable info.
Claim: watcher N1, Watched Sinestro, and I can tell you Stringer Bell visited him

Please explain in your own words why you chose to wait to reveal this information. And also please explain why you thought Sinestro was a good watch choice. Thanks!

--

Still waiting for RedCoyote to explain the disconnect in his play whereby he calls anything Day 1 outside the end of Day wagons useless but doesn’t give an opinions on what those end of Day wagons say about who is scum.

--

I do disagree that I fit your heading. I didn't start pushing a Junpei lynch when things got tight, and that is not what your list infers. My support for a Junpei lynch yesterday is very similar to my support for a Toogeloo lynch today. I stated my reason, voted, and nothing came up to make me change my stance, just like today with Toogeloo.

This is semantic quibbling. You are trying to shift the focus away from the facts by arguing about minor and inconsequential issues.

You say that you started pushing the Junpei wagon before Stringer was under fire. That doesn’t matter in the scheme of why I find your positioning suspicious. You continued to vote (and ostensibly support) the Junpei wagon all during the time when Stringer was a counterwagon and under fire. That’s behavior I expect from a possible partner.

--

I was seeing if Fourseen would be lynched today, then I caught Implosion. There is other stuff between that, but those are the highlights. You don't want to lynch Ghostlin?

I think that RedCoyote is scum, but, you don't want to lynch Ghostlin? I think Ghostlin is quite scummy as well, and considering that we have the highest post counts and your wonderful (unless you're going to verbally assault your own case as well) case, it shouldn't be too hard rallying votes when the highest wagon after you change your vote has just 4 in 10 days.

Implosion isn't dying, I'd rather kill Ghostlin to RedCoyote. I'm positive you feel the same.

Yes, I clearly want to lynch Ghostlin. I think that pretty abundantly clear from my play.

Here’s my question – why right then when RedCoyote’s wagon had built impressive steam? I spent the first part of this day trying to rally support to lynch Ghostlin. You were no-where to be seen. I’m not going to just idle my vote on a player who I think is scum this early in a Large Theme game and not move it (which is horribly Anti-Town).

--

That being said; you outline my point. You sound beestung over Toog and PV, but you're not voting for either. L-8 isn't a huge amount of votes for either wagon for players who have made blantant anti-town moves...and you're all voting for RC. I guess I can appreciate a scum wagon with nuance versus lynching people for play that you could WIFOMly argue scum wouldn't do, but I don't think the scum will take claiming seriously if we don't kill or lynch PV. Or not being able to adqueately justify their shot, in Toog's case.

1. In the case of Toog I’ll say what I have said to Junpei above – I only have one vote in thread at a time and can’t vote all my suspects. I do think he’s scum outside independent of the handling of the shot today and would vote for him if a solid wagon developed.
2. You miss the point about why I feel Toog’s shot was Anti-Town . It has nothing to do with the target … but clearly the timing. Immediately firing off the weapon first thing today was a terrible, terrible move for Town. First it deprives us of any chance to learn if Whisper passed an ability N1. Second by not holding it till later in the Day he eliminated the possibility of shooting Peregrine for his Anti-Town move or Sinestro for Warrior’s claim. Both would have been net better use of said ability than firing at a lurker to ‘avenge DGB’.
3. Peregrine’s move was so Anti-Town it is scummy. I haven’t had a chance to review his ISO in full (that comes later on this week) to see if I think hes stands a reasonable chance of flipping scum. If he doesn’t I really want to weigh the downside of not lynching him for his move versus the downside of using Town’s greatest weapon on a player I don’t think will flip scum.

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

scum might have known that their scum buddy hid behine sinestro, assuming warrior is telling the truth and just not trying to get a mislynch. If we assume their are two scum teams, one team could have redirect the hider towards one of their own teamates. the team with the hider scum would now believe his target was scum and try to achieve that lynch or nk them later on.

Look, a large amount of nothing. Bunny this is all basically pointless speculation about what MIGHT have happened.

Who is scum? Give us your Top 3 Non-Sinestro scum reads with a small bit of why stat!

[MagnaofIllusion]

We're willing to gun for the town as long as you'll let us

Yup, Serial Killers shouldn’t live once claimed to be ‘leashed’ especially early. All you will do is accelerate the Town bodycount in all likelihood.

@Anyone who wants to argue

– Go look at the first game. Outed Serial Killer DGB could have made herself NK and Lynch immune by killing scum the Night after she was lynched (and likely would have shot said player as the lynch immunity was known publicly at that point). What you don’t know can and will bite you in the butt.

I’ll be voting Sinestro once we have confirmation that all slots have been replaced and EC’s replacement says whether they passed a power N1 or not.

In regards to Warriormode

– There are a couple of possibilities as to how he got this information, most but not all of which stem from him being scum. I suggest it a good use of any investigative strong role (Cop, not Tracker or Watcher) to confirm him scum / clear him tonight. It will simplify the process Day 3 since any such player can claim the results immediately Day 3. Either he’s Town and we put to rest any issues related to the WIFOM of his claim or he’s scum and we get another confirmed good lynch Day 3.

--

Toogeloo’s Post 1462 actually makes me think he has inside information. No reason before Sinestro’s claim (which until his flip should be taken with a grain of salt anyway in case he’s Mafia looking to ride a leashed SK claim for a few days) to think that Warrior’s claim meant that Sinestro must be 3rd party. Could easily be two scum teams (and Sinestro’s claim doesn’t eliminate this possibility). If we only have one Mafia faction this is a slip and Toog needs rope.

--

MoI: I was reaction testing you; and you acted as I was 98% sure you would act; unfortunately that is not indicative of your alignment at all. I'm well aware of why RedCoyote was a much more favorable vote for you at the time.

So you were reaction testing me. And were 98% sure what my reaction would be, and knew in advance that the result would be useless to helping form a read about my alignment. Why bother in the first place with that line of inquiry?

--

@MoI: If Stringer was scum, but had a pro-townie ability would he not just send his ability to the void? Does it really matter what ability the person we are trying to lynch have if they are scum? They know their number is up, and will try to cause the most damage to the town before the next day arrives.
Do you still believe we should avoid lynching top scum canadiates because they hold a useful town ability?

To answer the last point first – Day1 of this game where a Strong Town power is concerned? Absolutely.

Why would Stringer-scum damn himself to an auto Day 2 lynch by passing Hider to the Void when it was the only reason he got off the hook Day 1? That’s stupid. Scum Stringer’s best chance to survive long term was to avoid a Scan / Investigaton, pass the ability consistent with his reads, and play as a Town player in his position would going forward.

I can prove the above statement wrong. I've been in a game where we quicklynched scum.
I don't see how the speed of any wagon can maintain whether that person is town or not.

No, you can’t. For every game where scum got quicklynched I can probably find 10 to 20 where it hit Town players. A single statistical outlier does not disprove anything.

--

That's your main argument and you know it. Do you want me to quote your whining about the damn Furc lynch over several posts? Because I'll do it if that's what it takes for you to drop this point.

Really? That’s my main point? I direct you to the following posts from Day 1.

Post 753 – Where I begin laying out my Ghostlin suspicions.
Post 757, Post 759 – Further questioning of suspect Ghostlin
Post 767 – Full laid out case that Ghostlin is scum.
Post 822 – Response to Ghostlin’s defense against 767.

Every single on of which happened before NoPoint was even shot. Why make a point that is clearly not correct? Do you think using loaded language (whining) and threatening me was going to make me cower and forget my scum-hunting Day 1?

Pere is a good bet at scum. wazza is another safe bet. I also called Sinestro and am prepared to follow through on that.

Great. Please point out where you’ve done anything that actually supports those reads today? Because looking through your Day 2 ISO after 1185 (when these reads were presented per your own link) I see the following regarding those suspects –

And I think that's where most of the game is at. Even implosion. I can't speak for him, but I bet if you put a gun to his head and made him choose, he'd say MoI is town.

It's just like pulling teeth to get an actual discussion going rather than this "if you're not with me you're against me" nonsense. – This is direct at Sinestro in reference to me ‘being a dick’. Doesn’t really feel like scum-hunting here, is it?

Post 1303 – Votes Peregrine with the sole reason being his purposeful pass to the void. No mention of other scummy things Peregrine is done.

Post 1304 – Finds a quote from Peregrine that shows fencesitting and further develops his “Peregrine is scum for not passing” stance. Which he had no reason to have back at Post 1185 when Peregrine had not admitted it. Still no sign of any support for his Peregrine read.

Post 1308, Post 1310, Post 1348 – More comments on that specific issue.

@Red

– What about Wazz or Pere from Day 1 gave you these scum-reads?

I see your angle, but I also see the WIFOM. Why not try to make it look like you want SB dead if you know that SB is just going to end up claiming Hider? I mean, riddle me that, MoI.

So you think it is more likely in this game that all his scum partners would rather push a Hider partner early Day 1 hoping that his claim would bail him out as opposed to actually going after their presented scum reads? You may call it WIFOM all you want. Logically more of Stringers partners will be pushing the counterwagons than pushing him. Is the possibly a partner there? Yes, it’s possible. But you will find more good targets looking in the counterwagons than on Stringer. Especially if we are in MultiScum where bussing is much less attractive.

Once we have some partners pushing the counterwagons flipped it can be assessed whether we are likely in Mutli-scum or Mafia / SK (Sinestro) and the search can be refined.

I think FC was laying the groundwork for some simple bussing, nothing more. I see him as scum for his moves outside of his SB vote.

Why don’t you make a clear and convincing case on him then?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wait, what? Why would I need to be lynched at all under any circumstances regarding what happened here?

Let's turn that around - why shouldn't you be a strong suspect? What about your play this game says "MagisterLudi is solid Town?".

[MagnaofIllusion]

It's SlySly's stance not mine so I'll let him field that (although I don't see where it is coming from).

My question is independant of that Magister. Please take a minute and respond.

[MagnaofIllusion]

sup guys

i'd unvote, but i'm still grudged at magna

reading.

Good to see you also Pops

[MagnaofIllusion]

Stringer died by hiding behind non-Eruci, and claimed the possibility of SK when he claimed his ability. Stringer flipped Termiati. Therefore, scum team is Termiati. Why would I think any differently? And where is Daevori ever mentioned anywhere? My Role Pm only stated enemies of the Eruci.

So what about your Role PM saying ‘enemies of the Eruci’ specifically excludes mutli-Scum? I know you’ve played in multiple games with Multi-scum so your ‘most common’ argument doesn’t hold much water?

--

Guys. Don't make this complicated. He's a SK. Kill him. You can't leash them. They aren't your pets, and at Day 2 we're not looking a situation where it would be wiser to keep one alive.

Um he’s dying. The only reason he hasn’t is because we are waiting on EC’s replacement (which you specifically agree we should do earlier).

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey Ludi, while you are busy doing nothing in particular why don't you explain why you are Town via your game efforts ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Everyone slowly pushing up the Sinestro Vote Count

– if you think you are going to get Town cred at this stage please stop. We are waiting for EC to be replaced so the replacement can at least confirm Pass / No Pass and have the Night to read the thread. Now if you are scum wanting to stymie this process continue mindlessly voting Sinestro before said replacement … it will make the successive Days lynches easier to decide upon.

Post 1491 and Post 1512 show that something is amiss with the quoting feature currently.

--

Your question seems silly. I will indulge. I am town because I have shown a town independent mindset in trying to determine who are the scum in this game. That is probably the biggest way you can tell if someone is town or not, regardless of the results and I've been all right so far on that front too. I've gotten correct town reads on several players, and have tried to stop silly wagons on people I percieve are town as well. Hitting a scum or two by lynching would be nice as well.

Really? Given that your scum reads really haven’t developed beyond Warrior and Projectmatt (when you don't call someone scum and then retreat fairly quickly to calling them Town, that is) and that I’m not seeing any evidence at all of drive to find scum via inquiry I find this explanation a little hard to buy. That said – please explain what correct Town reads you have gotten. As a note – listing NoPoint isn’t going to help since your back-off from him was timed quite scummily. Thanks again!

--

If you don't want us to shoot, we won't. Only when you guys want someone vig'd, whether it's a lurker, or someone scummy. We will listen. We don't want to die yet And honestly we'll probably get nk'd soon, we are against mafia, and we would be working like a town vig - essentially a shield for you guys.

That’s a good one Hiplop – the claimed Bulletproof will be Nightkilled soon. I got a good chuckle … thanks for bringing some levity to your impending roping.

--

guys what's a good post reading quota for today before i relapse and play dominion. Page 4? 5? 6? 12? 15?

You will have 60+ pages to read by the time the day ends. Here’s your equation –

You have Time = (Time in Days to replace EC) + (Time to hammer scum Sinestro and have Kunkstar show the flip) + (3 days for Night) to get caught up.

Whatever schedule allows for that to happen by the Dawn of Day 3 is what you need to use.

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Why would I make that assumption? Stringer said "I guess that includes the SK." So why would I think there is multiple teams as opposed to one team and an SK?

And ding you hit the bullseye. Why are you making any assumptions at all about the set-up? We know there is a Temaiti (or proper spelling) faction and we have a claimed Serial Killer. That’s all Town should know at this stage.

Yet your posting betrays that you may in fact know that there is only a Single Mafia faction. It’s subtle but it’s there and means if we determine down the line that only a single faction is likely you absolutely need rope if you are still among the living.

--

Hm? Scum would know whether or not we're in a game with multiple scum teams?.

Yes, Mafia scum probably do have a solid idea whether we are in Single or Multi-scum. Simply based on their starting number of members compared to the game size.

Even if they aren’t absolutely sure the idea of bussing in a 25ish person game Day 1 / Day 2 is pretty hard to swallow I imagine, especially if via the Pass mechanics they can effectively be forced to kill off partners later on.

--

No, I gain the ability of the person who dies.

So I have to know who is going to be killed at night. Please explain how town would ever know this?
But, with recent developments, we could have passed thw ability to the SK who could kill and rip the power from his victims, and then send the powert back to town. Right?

Town should be able to make a pretty good read of who they think might die at Night and take their best educated guess. And down the line it’s would have been great defense when a Player has to claim a strong passed ability to survive lynch.

Your little Appeal to Fear is noted for coming days.

But seriously, can you see how the role I dumped benefits scum more than it benefits town?

But seriously, how can you continue to not see that the strength of cycling powers isn’t just in their usefulness as roles but in the many PoE eliminations they can create over the course of days?

No, and the power night1 was my responsibility. I don't consider it useful for town, since town consists of me and dead people. If, in my mind, I had someone I could confirm, I might have passed to them (if the vig had plugged scum, for example, I'd probably have sent it to him).

WTF did you sign up for this game if your attitude is “I can only pass to confirmed Town and I’m too stubbornly stupid to understand that passing is good long term”? This question is null and void, of course, if you are scum. Then you are doing a great job looking the part.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wow... so if I believe Termiati is the only scum faction, you see me as scum, but if I don't include Daevori as a possible scum team, I am scum to SlySly. Guess I am damned if I do and damned if I don't. I have been posting this entire time based on the information we have present. Stringer suggested an SK when he flipped scum, therefore I believe one team (Termiati) and an SK. How hard is that to comprehend? There is NOTHING to suggest multiple teams yet, so why would I even consider that possibility?

There is nothing that DOESN’T suggest multiple scum teams at this stage. Once again – you quote possibly slipped if the case that only one Mafia team exists. I'm not willing to just write of something very possible (especially given the strong indication at the end of Cycle X01 that adding a second full Mafia team would help balance out the set-up) just 'because'.

But since you think only one exists – please detail how all your scum picks make sense linked to Stringer scum.

Do you go into every game expecting multiple teams?

Do you think, "this game probably has 4 Serial Killers, 10 Mafia between 3 teams, and maybe just me as the only town?"

The most common setup of multiple factions is town, mafia, serial killer. I have seen nothing to suggest differently yet. You are misrepresenting my entire argument to make it seem like I have inside information.

I go into every Large Theme game not expecting anything not told to me directly by the Mod. Suggesting otherwise is stupid (or just low level play). The bolded is scummy hyperbole meant to undermine. Nice touch.

Hey guess what. You got a Scum right and two Town right on Day 1. You have inside information to know so much about the players, mirite?

Lulz. Nice WIFOM there Toog. Weren’t you just sarcasticly dismissing something else as that? Hypocrisy for the win!!!!!

If we lynch Sinestro today, since I know we won't have to worry about extra kills for a bit, I will GLADLY volunteer myself for lynching tomorrow just to remove myself as a distraction if you want Magna, but I swear to god, if you don't get lynched sometime shortly after me, I will be SORELY disappointed in this town for putting up with your bullshit manipulation cases. All you do is paint people as ugly as you possibly can.

You don't actually use evidence

, you have to twist every sentence that someone that you don't like says into a way for you to make them a target.

Barring a cop Guilty / similar damning evidence tomorrow I will absolutely take you up on this Toog. Thanks for the offer (which I’m completely guessing is empty).

The bolded is Newb crap posting and AtE – what evidence do you want? Don’t like that cases not built on Follow the Cop actually can produce scum flips? Feeling 'caught' for the wrong reasons?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be LA from today at 4PM til Monday for my normal family duties and Thanksgiving. I should be able to make some posts in that time but cannot commit to exactly when they will be.

--

Obviously, I never abandoned the SB wagon so you can cross me off this list for that.

I did support the Junpei wagon with my vote, but I think you are really stretching to say I actively pushed it, especially when things were "tight". You've worded your list heading in vague enough terms, "pushed" and "tight", to leave the door open for arguing semantics on terms that are not strictly measurable because the reader and writer could definitely be working with varying definitions of the chosen terms. Using the way I define "pushed" - an obvious, visible and confident (usually repeated/reinforced) action, and "tight" - when NP/Junpei were actually nearing the required votes for a lynch, I don't belong on your list. When you change the context of those terms is when it becomes semantics and you are no longer arguing the root issue.

Now, if you have quotes of me during times you define as "tight" for NP/Junpei where I was making obvious visible actions, maybe evening reinforcing my stances, to get NP/Junpei lynched, by all means, feel free to quote me. If not, you could just as easily say, "Well, you may not fit there, but you fit under this _________ heading then." Either would cut through any semantics debating.

In regards to the bolded – you explanation for the reason I should suspect you as possible Stringer partner when you were voting Junpei during the whole competing wagons phase is that you weren’t actively pushing Junpei by making visible actions and reinforcing statnces? I don’t exactly know what to make of this. You aren’t suspect because you just parked your vote and did nothing with it and at the same time a counterwagon on scum was being pushed? That’s pretty absurd.

Because I was curious based on the above response I went and looked at the time-frame when the wagons were really viably competing – from Post 468 to Post 651 when the wagons really got started til the point where Stringer topped out and his claim was near.

Post 478 - Asking Drunken Piper if his opinions on Junpei or MagisterLudi.
Post 513 - Suggesting that Junpei and ML are trying to ‘link’ me to them via some slip, suggestion you would wagon MagisterLudi
Post 534 - Explaining how Junpei slipped regarding Junpei being Mafia with a QT.
Post 536, Post 537 – Fluff responses.
Post 539 – Suggesting Junpei would be scum with Implosion for the slip.
Post 541 - Suggestion you should ISO Implosion related to the slip you claim on Junpei.
Post 543 – Reference to Daytalk from Cyclical X01
Post 623 – Response to DrunkenPiper that you don’t see Junpei as Town and he continues to make moves that you see as scummy.
Post 630 – Question to implosion about his NoPoint vote.
Post 632 – Fluffy response to RedCoyote on Drunken’s posting style, ask the following question “Why Stringer over Junpei?”

That’s your posting during that stage. Seeing it laid out – do you suggest you aren’t reinforcing your opinion / stance that Junpei was scum who needed to be lynched over Stringer during that period?

[MagnaofIllusion]

That list doesn't bother to actually answer my question - I asked you to assess them from the standpoint of how they were likely a Stringer partner given your 1 Mafia team stance. The only assessment that even mentions Stringer is mine, and even then it is oblique.

Again - please assess your candidates in terms of them being Stringer partners via interactions /motivations.

[MagnaofIllusion]

-Not empty at all. My comments about how I typically play scummy, my lurkish Day 1, my vig shot. I imagine each and every one of these is highly distracting to people. So if I must sacrifice myself so that I am not a distraction late game, I will do so. However, once my flip happens, people will see how antagonistic and manipulative you have been of my posts, and I am hopeful you gain the scrutiny you deserve.

So let me get this straight - you are specifically saying how all of these elements of your play are 'highly distracting' - you are specifically suggesting that they can easily be perceived as scum motivated play.

Then you suggest I'm scummy manipulative for suspecting you for those exact elements?

That's some rather brutal inconsistency on your part.

[MagnaofIllusion]

It is an extreme reach to fit me under the heading in question. You have completely dumped the context of what I was saying in much of your list. For instance, in your last point, I was asking DP to convince me that SB was a better lynch than Junpei.

How were those posts not in context when you were directly interacting with Junpei and saying he was scum for multiple reasons?

Again - are you explictly saying those posts don't show you directly indicating our vote on Junpei was valid and supporting it?

[MagnaofIllusion]

OK, so you'll have to explain this also. If player A passes to player B who passes to player C who passes to player D, how the hell does that catch scum?

Did you not read the first game at all?

Example of clearing connnections via passing.

Player A passes to Player B Night 1.
Player B passes to Player C Night 2.
Day 3 Player B doesn’t die immediately at Day start. Thus A and B can’t be aligned together.
Player C passes to Player D Night 3.
Day 4 Player C doesn’t die immediately at Day start. Thus B and C can’t be aligned together.

Much later in the game those web of links creates a powerful set of PoE eliminations that can be used on top of play to find scum late-game.

Example of finding scum via deaths

Player A passes to Player B Night 1.
Player B passes to Player C Night 2.
Day 3 Player B doesn’t die immediately at Day start. Thus A and B can’t be aligned together.
Day 4 Player C dies from ‘Passing’. It is known that PlayerB and PlayerC are aligned together.

Via the publicly claimed information (such as who passed to who Night 2 it can be determined who passed to PlayerC. Said player is lynched as outed scum.

In both cases each passing power that survives a Night increases the amount of information available to Town. The longer the powers stay in play the stronger the PoE possibilities become. This is absolutely why specifically Voiding any powers is at best strongly Anti-Town and a good scum strategy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

At least I can admit that my playstyle isn't the most pro-town play. You still don't think you have manipulated anything.

You didn't answer the questions put to you but just took another little pot-shot.

Do you think it's helpful to Town to do so?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh, so what you are saying is that you really were backing more and more away from your position that Junpei was scum while letting your vote sit there while the Stringer / Junpei / NoPoint competing wagons were well underway. Noted.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So SlySly - why shouldn't that last post be considered IIoA? You give us a list of freely available information and do absolutely no analysis or suggesting who is mostly likely lurkerscum in your opinion.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'll be back either Sunday or Monday to catch up with what I missed -

Suffice it to say Junpei didn't actually paraphrase he direct copy / pasted from the QT. So I agree that post is mine. I disagree that the context is anything as he is presenting. I'll respond as I feel appropriate to the rest of his interesting little case.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well let’s please wait as long as possible to hammer Sinestro so kunkstar can have as much time to gather EC and Pops replacements.

--

For someone who makes no assumptions about the game, you make a lot of assumptions that scum can't pass abilities to each other via some other method.

My assumption here is based on the first game where a skill similar to the one you claimed to have N1 existed and was the only way for scum to circumvent the standard passing set-up. The set-up is fairly open and a non-passable ability for Mafia to hoard abilities for themselves would be pretty unbalancing.

Nice again to try to asset that my keeping an open mind on something that is hidden (exact number of scum factions) is inconsistent with using knowledge that relates to the Mod publicly disclosed facts of the set-up and the full knowledge of the prior game.

My reads are independent of each other. Not all 6 people I have named as scum are going to flip that way, I am not that savant-like. Reads change as the game progresses. For now though, I can safely say that Junpei, Warrior, and wazzatron/IAI were not on the Stringer vote train. You were third, which is the ample point to put a bus vote down. PV is more gut because of Junpei's comment, and as I mentioned before Bunny is a read slipping away simply because of a comment she made on Day 1.

So basically everyone on your list could be scum and Stringer’s flip adds nothing to the mix. Noted.

--

*** Re: the neighborizer, I did not have this ability last game, so I am wondering if the person who gets it can keep his identity hidden from the rest of the players in the QT. For instance, if the person Junpei passes to doesn't post in the QT, would MOI not know who has it D3? Or does the mod announce in the QT who gets to join. Would be nice to keep that hidden to everybody but the recent passer/passee...(the less people that know the less likely scum will intentionally kill the person who has it.)

I looked back – kunkstar does post anything in regards to the members of the Neighborhood so said recipient could hide his identity via Pseudonym or by not directly posting there.

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Ghostlin - Post 1549 is a prime example of why I find you scummy. You are unwilling to commit to whether the offense you claim I committed actually comes from scum-MoI or not. There’s weasel-wording language (specifically you use ‘worried’ multiple times) that softly can be used to indicate suspicion after the fact but can also be hand-waved away as “not actually calling MoI” scum if you need to later.

--

Why are you delibrately being stubborn? I'm talking about the Furcolow lynch, not the nopoint lynch. Posts 1150,1200, and 1284 were full of your whining about how Furcolow was so obvious town and that makes Ghostlin scum. Whatever you said prior to D2 is redudant because that was before the flip.

Why are you deliberately being stubborn yourself? I don’t care if you disregard what happened before Day 2 and what happened before the end of Day 1. It’s relevant to gameplay you your continual need to ignore it isn’t helping our back an forth.

Post 1171.

Yeah, I see that post. I don’t see any clear and convincing case that says “Hey, this is clearly scum motivated play”.

I wanted to respond to this as well. Of this group, I think FC, chkflip, and possibly warrior are our best shots at nabbing scum. That said, I wouldn't be sad to lose any of these people except possibly EC. I would like to read more of what EC's replacement has for us because I'm not convinced he was avoiding giving content.

For future referential tells – RC specifically doesn’t want EC dead, would like FC, chkflip and Warrior dead, and takes a middle of the road approach on Bunny, Spring, Sinestro (lulz, confirmed scum via claim before this post) and projectmatt.

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That's not quite what I am saying, entertaining twist though. Thx!

The thought that Junpei may not be a liar lasted for the duration of the 2 sequential posts of mine that you called fluff. In the post immediately following, Junpei reaffirms he is a liar. My pedit in the next post confirms I have retained my original position that Junpei is a liar. As I've already stated, I still haven't put Junpei in my town list.

I was in favor of a Junpei lynch during the time of SB and NP lynching/vigging wagons. By the time it became obvious to me that the Junpei lynch was a worthless D1 cause, NP was dead and the reasonless (with the exception of you) Ghostlin wagon was well underway.

Ok, so you were generally in favor of a Junpei lynch for the duration of the time that wagon was competing with Stringer-scum for prominence. But you strongly object to me putting you in my suspect pool because you disagree with the specific label of the group I am sorting you in.

End result – no change in why I put you in that pool. Label the pool whatever you wish – you were in favor of a counter wagon at the timeframe in question and not in favor of a Stringer lynch.

--

I’m going to comment on anything I think relevant from Junpei’s case. Anything I don’t comment on should be considered something Junpei is just grabbed in an attempt to ‘concoct’ his case after he ‘discovered’ his damning scum-slip. For example – anything that has the word ‘twisting’ is probably going to fall into this category. I don’t consider anything in the category anything other than fluff padding.

Right off the bat, says we have two scum teams. NOTE: I believe that MoI is in one of at least 2 scum teams :NOTE. There really isn't any reason to suspect this because he doesn't consider abilities/poison already going to hurt 'the plan', he immediately jumps to the conclusion of multi-scum teams. As MoI says later in the game, scum should know if there are multiple teams based on their numbers.

Or I have experience from the first game that indicates that two Mafia factions are likely. But note that Junpei didn’t have any problem with this up until his discovery. So this is after the fact retrofitting.

So, caught in his lie MoI says that Crypto is always going to be just like scum, but he's town. I can't make this stuff up folks; MoI thinks that Crypto purposefully was trying to emulate scum play which was why he thought he was scum.

Actually you did a great job making it up Junpei. Congrats. Anyone – go read Post 245

There I specifically say that Crypto has adopted a playstyle where regardless of his alignment you goes out of the way to play in a scummy / anti-Town manner (aka Fate-style). No-where in that post do I call him Town as Junpei asserts here. And note that Crypto himself specifically agrees with my assessment in his early post HERE.

So much for the grand ‘lie’ here.

Wait, in this post he says that he has no evidence that Crypto is a VI and not scum. But he said that Crypto wasn't scum, just bad earlier. Contradictionsss

But, of course, I’ve already shown how I never called Cypto Town so this ‘contradiction’ really isn’t anything other than a further mistake by Junpei. Again let’s read Post 299. It’s in specific response to Junpei in the middle of the post where I differentiate Crypto from Fourseen in saying one is a clear VI (Fourseen) and one is not. Being capable of better play does not equal Town.

Also; MoI defends me a lot, which really felt like buddying to me then and now. I think he was preparing for the moment he would enlist me in the neighborhood, and try to win me over, knowing I'm a vocal player.

Note the lack of context in this attack compared to the his “MoI is in one of at least two scum teams” above … buddying is when a scum player tries to make connections to Town. In the case he is arguing I couldn’t know Junpei was Town.

As to worrying about 'Winning you over' that I do find amusing. Had I really wanted to find someone to buddy to I would have chosen someone who has a strong reputation like Kdub or the late DGB.

MoI tells Magister Ludi (in 2) that he isn't pushing scum reads by just saying "lets get this wagon going" or things similar. It's funny because later he accuses SlySly of pushing my wagon despite saying at most those things, if not less.

Please continue to push the “semantics argument” that I’ve had with SlySly. Again – his position on a counterwagon to scum-Stringer during the period in question makes him a possible partner in my analysis regardless of whether he was actively cheerleading the wagon.

As to his ‘slip’ from the QT –

He absolutely copy / pasted my post word for word from the QT. That is without dispute. His “oops I paraphrased at Post 1584 later statement was an attempt to hope I would alter my original post in an effort to ‘keep him in the game’ after the fact when he thought his post might be Modkill worthy. Not sure why he would think I would do that but that’s why he made that post per his QT comments.

The next person in the QT can confirm this.

Regardless I completely dispute his assessment of the context. Junpei was basically stating that Warrior MUST be Stringer’s partner in the QT. That post in question was to demonstrate ways that Warrior could be either Town or scum not aligned with Stringer.

The next person in the QT can also confirm that I have asserted that there.

Summary

– My position on Junpei hasn’t changed. He’s not going to be Stringer’s partner and is more likely to be bad Town than scum for the opposing fashion. Keep this in mind whenever you see my alignment.

Oh, and while we are on the topic –

Our warrior discussion is really a gametheory discussion. Is that the topic that you want to be posted of?

Whut? It’s really a gametheory discussion? That’s pretty inconsistent with your opinion that “Lulz, this is a huge scum-slip”.