Civilization Mafia [GAME OVER]

[Leonshade]

I feel pretty ambivalent about lynching Caesar today. He's mostly a PoE/compromise wagon, if he flips town not much will change and I'm not confident in him flipping scum.

[Leonshade]

I don't agree with any of nancy's scumreads

I don't have the time or energy to double-check Vecna's case, I'l just put my trust in him. Of interest to me is that davesaz claims to have scumreads in this game but hasn't had a vote out all day. He also had LUV as an (unexplained) scumread alongside ABR in his D2 reads list but the scumread seems to have disappeared since.

VOTE: davesaz

[Leonshade]

I don't agree with any of nancy's scumreads

Which ones? The ones I was looking at if Aslan were scum, or the earlier ones?

The ones in 9110. I don't know what your current reads are if those are just hypothetical.

I don't agree with any of nancy's scumreads

I don't have the time or energy to double-check Vecna's case, I'l just put my trust in him. Of interest to me is that davesaz claims to have scumreads in this game but hasn't had a vote out all day. He also had LUV as an (unexplained) scumread alongside ABR in his D2 reads list but the scumread seems to have disappeared since.

VOTE: davesaz

Why would you flawlessly trust my judgement after that ABR faillure?

I'm not just blindly sheeping you, I did check dave's ISO in this game. He has expressed scumreads this game, including during this day, but hasn't gone after them or even backed his words up with a vote. You being wrong about one read doesn't make you wrong about everything, and I at least trust your alignment here.

I don't really want to lynch Caesar today and there isn't a better wagon for me to hop on. dave isn't my ideal wagon but I'm not getting CloudKicker or Skies today.

[Leonshade]

@Ali:

Why are Nero and Sondam locktown? I can see TRs, but the certainty puzzles me. Why isn't nancy locktown?

[Leonshade]

@Leon

I really, really like BaeReed's read on the Sondam hydra and I trust that a lot and I trust my TR on BaeReed a lot.
As for Nero, I'm locktowning him because honestly, I think he's one of the few make that make sense right now.

I'm puzzled as to why you aren't asking why Brian is locked town. Weren't you pushing him earlier?

Also before I answer your nancy question,

@nancy

If you're going to do a serious push on me, do it in your next post, or go back to townreading me.

I know why you have him as lock town (the Drixx thing), I simply disagree.

JaeReed's Sondam read is based on Maria and gerry preferring scum, right? They've been phoning it in here so that's actually not a bad reason to TR them, I've certainly known that about the Maria head of Sondam.

Nero I'm leaning town on, but locking him in for making sense, nah. It would be easy for scum to make sense since they know what's going on.

[Leonshade]

This is literally the same thing as Beeboy was. Beeboy wasn't doing enough activity to make people happy so they got lynched when the posting they posted felt opportunistic because they agreed with prior points. Davesaz is not posting as much so ya'll are running him up. Look at Gistou. He was ACTIVE.

I fear that this is true (Dave being a lurker mislynch whose town flip gives us nothing), but I have hard TRs on all of the most active players. Five percent of me is paranoid that I'm snowed by Vecna here, but him questioning me for sheeping him on dave felt like town paranoia so I don't think that's the case. LUV isn't lock town for me, but I trust my TRs who say this isn't their scum game and it certainly matches my limited experience of town LUV. You, nancy, Creature and Ali are lock town, and Nero is a townlean.

I think scum is just coasting this game, but at that point it feels like shooting in the dark as to who's scum here.

[Leonshade]

No I don't have him locked town for that, I have him locked town for 9048 because that is a really good post.
For Nero right now they're bleeding town to me.

That's a decent post, but lock town?

[Leonshade]

Some scum want to stay off mislynch wagons for towncred. But I won't blame you for TRing someone who matches your thoughts.

What do you think of CK, Ali? I think I'd rather lynch him than dave.

[Leonshade]

I had a couple issues with Kyouko, nothing about Cloudie has swayed me one way or another thus far.

I don't know, there's nobody that is screaming scum this game. Even Skies has points going for him now.

[Leonshade]

@CloudKicker

: I've talked about my scumread on Kyouko before, the fact that you haven't been openly scummy hasn't made me reconsider my read.

You seem to be confbiasing your scumread on me based on a couple posts. It's almost too obvious, like you're trying to come off as confbiased town (and you even go for the self-aware/pre-emptive defense on your OMGUS so you know what you're doing).

[Leonshade]

You have a point about the dissonance between pretending to be confbias vs. your OMGUS comment, though once again you're self-aware about it.

My initial impression reading your case was that you were confbiasing yourself, but since you were making it so obvious that you were only focusing on a couple of my posts and seemingly ignoring the rest.

I don't agree with any of nancy's scumreads

I

don't have the time or energy to double-check Vecna's case,

I'l just put my trust in him. Of interest to me is that davesaz claims to have scumreads in this game but hasn't had a vote out all day. He also had LUV as an (unexplained) scumread alongside ABR in his D2 reads list but the scumread seems to have disappeared since.

VOTE: davesaz

The more i read leons the more obvious it gets that hes mefia. Scumexcuses, ill put my trust in him is also a buddy line wich leads to vecna being town and vecna also stated earlier that hes a sucker for being buddied and that leon is a blindspot, as i read it he has meta with leon where he couldnt read him correctly. Hes talking about unexplained reads when hes not explaining his

This post especially looks fake, you already quoted the post in 9196 and now you're quoting it again to list off a bunch of confbias reasons for why you're becoming more convinced about your scumread. It's like you were staring at my last 10 posts to list reasons to call me scum as opposed to trying to read me.

I haven't interacted with many people during the time since you replaced in, I've been largely disengaged for large chunks of D3. I have no reason to change my read on your slot just because you replaced in, Kyouko scummy + you null = slot still scummy.

[Leonshade]

My initial impression reading your case was that you were confbiasing yourself, but since you were making it so obvious that you were only focusing on a couple of my posts and seemingly ignoring the rest, it made me think that you were trying to look like you're doing so on purpose.

EBWOP.

[Leonshade]

Some scum want to stay off mislynch wagons for towncred. But I won't blame you for TRing someone who matches your thoughts.

What do you think of CK, Ali?

I think I'd rather lynch him than dave

.

This whole post is textbook scum, talks about third party hypothetic scum behaviors, "wont blame you for tring someone who matches your thoughts" is an obnoxious buddy line,

Hes trying to derail the wagon on dave onto me even tho he outed 0 reads on eithers slots AFAIK

, hes asking for alisae to out their reads on my slots, while not outing theirs, as to fuel a possible wagon. This is imo mefia vs town interactions same with the buddy line

You make a claim like this even though it would be trivial to check my ISO to see that I've stated my reads on both Kyouko and dave. I've been pretty transparent about my reads in general, yet your case is just looking at my posts from the last day or two, not seeing me explain my reads in those posts and concluding that I'm not explaining my reads.

[Leonshade]

And what did you have me as lean scum for before?

[Leonshade]

I've been coasting because I tried to push my top SR in Skies and nobody cared to join my wagon, or even comment on my case besides saying that Skies is town because of one post from Drixx. The top wagons of today could flip scum, but I'm largely apathetic about them and only joining the wagons because I want the day to be over.

Kyouko's jump on the beeboy wagon was really bad and he never jumped off it since, that's why I'm scumlean on your slot. Point against that is that he was largely inactive a couple days after he jumped on beeboy , so he wouldn't have had time to switch wagons anyway.

You could just be confbiased town, attributing a cunning scum plan to your case is a bit of a stretch. I'm way more confident in my townreads this game, my only scumreads are you and Skies.

[Leonshade]

@Mod: I will be V/LA 14th-18th of March, so between next Tuesday and Saturday.

noted!

[Leonshade]

UNVOTE:

[Leonshade]

Assuming both Caesar and dave are town, my PoE is down to {Gin, CloudKicker, Maxous, Skies}. First TRs I'll reconsider are Sondam and Yuri. I still sorta like Senpai's defense of Sondam, but there could be other NAI reasons for their lack of activity, or they could just be coasting until there's less players. Yuri I remember being really active leading up to his lynch, but he's mostly been a non-factor afterwards.

[Leonshade]

A non-TR lynch would be a victory at this point.

LUV's play isn't great but he just looks apathetic more than scummy. I remember wanting to push LUV from Smackdown Mafia if I wouldn't have gotten drafted.

[Leonshade]

VOTE: CloudKicker

[Leonshade]

Kyouko was one of the three major wagons D2, why has the slot received so little attention today? Lots of people townread Vecna, does anyone TR Cloudie? If not, why is the slot ignored?

[Leonshade]

{CloudKicker, Gin, Maxous, Brian Skies}
{Sondam, Yuri}

Wagons I'm willing to join today, top tier being preferable to bottom tier.

[Leonshade]

Nobody's going to "wake up" if we no lynch, it's just going to foster even more apathy.

Kyouko was one of the three major wagons D2, why has the slot received so little attention today? Lots of people townread Vecna, does anyone TR Cloudie? If not, why is the slot ignored?

I have four people I scumread and a lot I townread and a couple that could fit into the last likely spot. Cloud or I don't see being scum.

kyouko was a policy lurker lynch no one had reasons.

Kyouko's jump on beeboy was garbage.

[Leonshade]

I'm null on Nero. I really liked his 453.

I did sr uzi but then I went to sleep and forgot what the sr was for....eh
VOTE: Max

Btw Vecna I don't really see that but then again you were around with him longer what are the dif's you're seeing?
~Maria

Fake read like I thought.

I don't think your scum though.

I didn't like these.

Because?
-Nebby

453 was really far from anything alignment indicative even if he agreed with it. Fake read is a weird af accusation to make towards a town read.

He says in 453 Nero is null though. "Don't think you're scum" doesn't mean he thinks they're town. Could be sorting them
VOTE: beeboy

It makes no sense to vote beeboy for this.

[Leonshade]

Senpai and Ali TR Sondam, and I see the logic in the TR (that Maria and Gerry wouldn't coast as scum).

Nobody TRs Cloudie.

[Leonshade]

but Maria and Gerry do coast as scum unless they have shored up their game....

I'm also light town reading Cloud.

Why do you TR Cloud?

I don't have any scum meta with Maria or Gerry, I was trusting Senpai on that. If they coast as scum I'm willing to string them up here.

[Leonshade]

VOTE: Sondam

There won't be a better lynch today.

[Leonshade]

VOTE: Nay

The info isn't all that useful, and we can make people claim it anyway if we really want to know.

Oh yeah btw I'm pretty sure Leon is scum now considering his Sondam vote.

Sondam was going to be lynched with or without my vote, I merely sped up the process.

[Leonshade]

Nobody wanted to go for my top tier choices, nor did anybody want to listen to my defense (or rather, JaeReed's defense) of Sondam. I was starting to get paranoid of the slot myself, so I didn't mind them getting lynched, even if they were not an ideal choice. I think Dave is town here, and I was fine with lynching Sondam instead of Dave. Today I would like to lynch in CloudKicker/Brian/Caesar, maybe Gin (currently KidAmn IIRC).

[Leonshade]

im pretty sure its me you want to maybe lynch.

Yeah, looks like it!

Zero deaths with a vig in play is weird, I think the scum either has the vig, or a doc.

[Leonshade]

The info isn't all that useful, and we can make people claim it anyway if we really want to know.

how do you get a dead person to claim things

Talking about lynches, not NKs.

I don't think fakeclaims are likely in this setup, as scum would risk a town counterclaim if they fakeclaimed having a wonder.

[Leonshade]

What's the argument for yea, besides "makes fakeclaims a bit harder", when fakeclaims are unlikely in this setup anyway? Town receives minimal benefit, whereas scum know which wonders are in play that they didn't build.

[Leonshade]

Sondam was a better lynch than Nero, and PV's alignment is irrelevant since he's dead.

[Leonshade]

I'd like to see your notes, Kid Ambrose.

[Leonshade]

Nero. Why. Would. Math. Claim. To. Have. That. Wonder.

VOTE: Nero

Starting from I think 9514, I got bad vibes from Sondom, as if he wanted to drown out the accusations against him chanting the same mantra instead of disproving what went against him. The fact if the matter is that the behavior didn't change so I don't see it as a gimmick but as a deflection technique.

Lunch break post, if you have a case on Sondom that's not just because he's not around, quote it or reference it so I can make my own determinations.

VOTE: Sondom

The Nero vote looks forced.

The jump on Sondam over-justifies the vote, and the reasoning reeks of looking for reasons to lynch as opposed to trying to sort someone. I expect better from town!Gin than jumping over such low-hanging fruit.

@Gorkington:

Thoughts on the above?

[Leonshade]

why is that useful though?
my opinion is inherently skewed in a way thats literally just going to be me saying "yup thats town because reason because i know its true".
theres no objectivity there.
theres also that i feel like its a waste of time to iso my own slot, figure out what the mindframe was, just to justify actions that i will never be able to fully represent properly because i dont know what he was thinking.

you would rather me do that than read other people and give thoughts there?

You can do both

im not going to.
deal with it.

you can either choose for me to wiffle around in my own slot's iso to pointlessly justify his behavior

or i can play the game, actually give a shit and drive gamestate.

but actually you dont get to choose im doing the latter.

Bolded looks LAMIST.

I didn't ask you to justify your predecessor's actions or waffle through his ISO, I asked you for thoughts. You wrote a lot of words explaining why it would be useless for you to respond to my question, but zero questioning my motives for asking such a supposedly useless question. You just replaced in and don't seem to have a read on me, could I not be scum pretending to scumhunt with useless questions?

[Leonshade]

Whats stopping you?

oh dangit are my posts not seeming very town?
hm.
i'll try and readjust.
do you have any suggestions for me?

So you're gonna stick to this "too scummy"/fluff thing? Gin did the same thing.

"Why would scum keep doing it if they're getting SR'd for it?"

Precisely so people think that. Why would town keep playing in a way that gets them scumread? Town would try to fix their play, it's scum that would go for this WIFOM.

youre leaning town.
seems like youre angry.
and frustration usually builds unreliable reads.
i would suggest sitting on it and coming back to it because im not really going to find anything compelling in what youre pushing there atm.

Forced. How do you know that Ali's reads might be unreliable, if you haven't read the game?

[Leonshade]

VOTE: Leonshade

I don't think any of nancy, Ali, or Luv are scum.

Explain.

OMGAWD LUV CEASAR IS NOT GETTING LYNCHED HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU.

Trusting you is the only reason I didn't want to lynch Caesar yesterday, but based on your current reads I'm not sure I can trust your judgment on Caesar, either.

[Leonshade]

Yay, I just found out I'm going on exchange to Glasgow this fall!

Also my V/LA starts now, I might post a bit but don't expect much.

VOTE: Gorkington

[Leonshade]

My play being different from Code Geass does not equal me being scum here. In Code Geass we were doing really well, I was confident in my reads and I was successful in pushing lynches. This game has been the opposite in all of those, and large chunks of the game has been my townreads fighting with each other.

{Alisae, Creature, MathBlade, nancy, Vecna}

The above is the top tier of my townreads, I'm confident enough in them that I'd need a guilty to change my read.

{Lil Uzi Vert, Nero Cain, NoticeMeSenpai,}

Second tier, possible but unlikely scum.

{davesaz, Maxous, KidAmn, CloudKicker}

Null/mixed tier, there's scum here but I'm not sure where. Note that CloudKicker's climbed up to this tier, what I had on Kyouko was weak and my scumread on CK might have been confbias.

{Brian Skies, Caesar Wills It}

Scumlean, don't understand the townreads here and I would be surprised if both of them flipped town.

{Gorkington}

Top suspect at the moment.

Most of the suspicion is/has been going to my townreads (and now me), and I've been unsuccessful in convincing others of their towniness. Especially my top tier seems like obvious town to me, yet few are united in seeing the same things as I am. All of my top tier townies also have one or more of my townreads as one of their top scumreads. The town is imploding in my eyes, and I don't see anyone pushing the lynches I actually want. That's why I've been so apathetic.

Pre-flip associative tells are garbage, claiming that I'm being bussed before a single one of my "bussers" or anyone else in this game has flipped scum is ridiculous. In general, pretending to have the scumteam figured out when there have only been town flips thus far is either arrogant or disingenuous.

nancy, your read WIFOM is not hindering scum, it mostly serves to confuse and distract townies. You're obvtown to me because of Spiffeh's replace out, but the people calling you out for your weird play are townreads as well. I would guess that most scum are avoiding saying anything negative about you, since pushing your lynch would be too risky.

Creature, your townreads tend to be pretty reliable in general, but nobody's going to listen to you if all you do is snipe people on the sidelines and call town players bad. If you've got reads you trust, work with who you townread and push them.


I'm a vanilla townie. I tried to build Petra (tracker wonder) D2 and the double cop wonder D3.

That's my last will in case I get lynched. I hope it's not.

[Leonshade]

VC looking good, Gork is a wagon I can be happy with.

[Leonshade]

HOLY FUCK GORK IS CLEARLY A MISLYNCH

How so?

[Leonshade]

Then it's not "clearly" a mislynch, and I don't have a reason to blindly sheep you.

If Ali was softing a result he'd be focusing on the two of you.

[Leonshade]

I mean simply stating that two people are TvS without an opinion on which is which is nonsense (tho not sure if Ali's doing that or just stating his reads in a roundabouy way), since if you acknowledge either side can be town, both can be, but Ali has not played today as if he has a 100% result on either you or Senpai.

He's voted me and KidAmn today, if he WAS softing that result his play today would be really suspect.

[Leonshade]

Would like to see this supposed rolefishing by Ali, def don't interpret that post you quoted as that.

I've got time tp phonepost for an hour if you want to bring sonething to my attentipn.

[Leonshade]

Would like to see this supposed rolefishing by Ali, def don't interpret that post you quoted as that.

I've got time tp phonepost for an hour if you want to bring sonething to my attentipn.

This is a daily reminder that this is scum trying to find a way to wiggle out of their TR on me.

Your reading comprehension needs work, I'm expressing skepticism if nancy's points on you.

[Leonshade]

V/LA over, I'm back.

[Leonshade]

Let me know why. Had a scumlean on Skies and a townlean on Nero.

Willing to do a soft reset on my less confident reads since I've been garbage this game. My previous top townreads still stand.

[Leonshade]

Those players being?

[Leonshade]

Fuckkk RC is town and Nero is scum

VOTE: Nero Cain

Nero being scum makes so much sense but I ignored it because ABR flipped town

[Leonshade]

Nero: everything about your reads has been off all game. I ignored it because I had you linked with ABR and he flipped town, but there has to have been scum in the active players and I'm townreadinf prettt much all thw others. You've been the voice od discord in this game and a big part of why town's been conflicted.

More when it's not 3 AM.

[Leonshade]

Creature RC tunnels as town (prob as scum too) but Nero is scum if my mafia hunting instincts work at all anymore

[Leonshade]

I know, it's part of why I TR'd you.

But your reads and play this game don't make sense to me and I think town!Nero would see the game mire similar to me here. And you've been agaimst so many of my townreads and causing discord under the radar which I ignoeed since ABR was doing it even worse than you

You've blatantly been trying to get towncred and throwing shade on people for being on the first two mislynches so why am I PoE town when I was on all the mislynches with less convicyion?

[Leonshade]

Full disclosure, I was somewhat following and thinking about this game during my absence. I came to the conclusion that while I could trust my locktown, there had to be flaws in my reads. My PoE scumpool made no sense, so I had to have scum in my townreads. Brian Skies was a pretty lynchbaity player, and while I was frustrated that he was being townread for reasons I didn't see at all, most of the players townreading him were in my lock-town list. After that push on Nero, especially if Nero flips scum, RC is almost certainly town here. There would be no reason to bus Nero in this game state.

The big reason for why I've sucked at this game thus far is that my playstyle was thrown off so hard by the huge arguments and in-fighting between Math/Titus, ABR and other townies. I felt like I was constantly either trying to catch up, or trying to convince my lock-town reads to get off each other and onto whomever felt scummy to me, but was being ignored.

I can't remember how my townlean of Nero came about, but Nero being scum here makes so much sense to me. When Math, Creature, nancy and Vecna were all fighting with each other, I was ignoring Nero being part of the discord since all the townies were also contributing to it. But I think there absolutely has to have been scum stirring the shit along with the townies, and Nero is by far the best candidate for that.

Like you said the me math and nancy were all scum so that leaves only like 2 town votes on you?

Nero's AtE and self-vote is really scummy, especially for the above reason. I also hated him responding to my scumread of him with "who will you lynch when I flip town". That's not town trying to convince a townread of his that he's town, that's scum trying to make me doubt my read.

For the people weirded out by my earlier posts about Nero, check my timezone. I was lying in bed between 2-3 AM suffering from insomnia and reading this game, and I had the realization that Nero is scum. I was phoneposting, so a lot of my points were rambling. I was trying to express intuition with words in the heat of the moment. Now that I've had more time to think about that, I'm still confident that Nero is scum.

[Leonshade]

RC strong arming a lynch based on little or no evidence is well within his scum meta.

Also there's a simple BOP here. Nero was good enough to correctly call me scum when I powerlynched him in the NY we played. In this game his scumpool is

and this is manipulative as fuck.

It's also well within his town meta.

P-edit:

What "shit" was I stirring?

Town has been conflicted and in-fighting, and while a big part of that has been due to town egos clashing, you've been part of it all along, causing arguments instead of helping the game be solved.

I don't think you've been scumhunting, I think you've been throwing shade at poorly/weirdly playing townies. A big part that stuck out to me (that I poorly made during the night) was when during D3 you were calling people like Math scummy/bad for being on both mislynches. You're experienced enough to know that mislynches frequently happen, especially on D1/D2. I thought that was a really bad reason for calling them scummy at the time, but I ignored it because I was townleaning you for reasons I don't remember.

I need to go through your ISO to see everything I've been ignoring from you.

[Leonshade]

To answer your question about who's scum if you're town, Nero, if you're not the scum in my townreads, I think one of Vecna/LUV has to be. They're my only strong townreads that aren't 100% locked in. Especially Vecna has been a big part of the town in-fighting. And there has to have been scum stirring the shit to reach this game state.

But my Vecna townread is much stronger than the one I had on you ever was, if they're scum their play has been exceptional.

[Leonshade]

I've been assuming that everyone who was active and going at each other during D1/D2 was town, that's why I've had so much trouble with this game. That's not how mafia works. There's been coasting scum this game, but I've also had at least one scum in my strong townreads.

Notice how as soon as I'm in the scum brigade starts throwing their votes around and trying to develop new wagons while not actually addressing that wagon?

That's not a coincidence.

Like this is ATE-y manipulative stuff. I mean he was

OBVIOUSLY

talking about Creature and Vecna but calling them the "scum brigade" is only being used to garner a response.

Have you ever played with town!RC before? If you have, I don't buy for a second that you haven't seen town!RC do things exactly like that.

[Leonshade]

I think one of Vecna/LUV has to be.

There are 5 scum in this game and you have 2 scum reads when I flip town?

"Nero is scum"

"shit guys he flipped town. It has to be one of LUV or Vecna."

"SHIT THEY FLIPPED TOWN SO IT MUST BE THE OTHER ONE"

How convent that scum need exactly 3 mislynches to win. Things that make you go hrmmmmm....

Huuuuuge stretch, at least try to come up with genuine reasons to SR me.

Leon, serious question. What is your stance on VCA?

Zero faith in the kind of VCA Titus or nancy like to do. Coloring in flipped players and your reads can help debunk ridiculous scumteams, I think that's about it.

[Leonshade]

Big difference between arguments and being argumentative. I think you've been throwing shade and working to cause arguments, rather than trying to find scum.

I've been trying to find the coasting scum all game, but I don't know who they are. The lurker/coasting pool is

{Caesar, davesaz, Maxous, KidAmn, CloudKicker, Gorkington}

All of those slots either are coasting/lurking, or were doing so D1/D2. Senpai has also been coasting, but he's town because of his hard defense of Creature.

Huuuuuge stretch, at least try to come up with genuine reasons to SR me.

If I thought you were scum and not just bad I'd of been voting you. Why assume you are getting scumread?

If you don't assume I'm scum, why assume that both Vecna and LUV are mislynches? Also, your post was clearly throwing shade on me:

How convent that scum need exactly 3 mislynches to win. Things that make you go hrmmmmm....

If I'm just bad, why is me having two more mislynch reads convenient?

[Leonshade]

"You have the exact amount of misreads to cause a scum win hmmmmm makes you wonder."

"Nah I wasn't throwing shade on you I just called you bad."

Moving the goalposts.

[Leonshade]

Things that make you go hrmmmmm....

its me thinking about things. I mean scum need exactly 3 mislynches and you going "well ok, there

HAS

to be 1 scum in my town reads" I know that atleast one of those is town and I'm not exactly sold on Vecna and LUV being scum over bad town so I think its more than reasonable to question it.

Bullllllshit. Going hmmmm there is an implication that you find something suspicious.

You ASKED who I had as scum if you flip town.

When I ANSWERED your QUESTION, you went "that's enough for a scum win hmmmm".

When called out on it, you're now changing what you meant by that statement.

Why isn't RC in that list of town reads that might be wrong?

Skies was part of my "coasting scum" list before RC replaced in. RC is not lock-town, but at the moment I'm convinced that you're scum and that it makes no sense to bus your buddy when scum is winning so hard. And if RC is scum and pushing a scum wagon on you, where are his buddies on the wagon? The rest of your wagon is me and my lock-town reads.

[Leonshade]

You've realized scum have been coasting but your description of your Nero scum read doesn't fit that description. If you were just able to identify who's been coasting scum so easily, why aren't you pushing them? We aren't in LYLO or MYLO yet so how've come to reevaluate doesn't really make sense to me. All I'm getting is that you're implying Brain's replace out caused this. Also, what's the difference between my behavior and Nero's? I've arguable been just as disruptive.

No, Nero fits scum who HASN'T been coasting. My point is that if all my townreads were correct, the D1/D2 active players were 100% town. That makes no sense. I think most of them were town, and scum was largely content to watch as the town egos clash and ruin the game, but that Nero was the active scum serving to make town even more conflicted.

Going back to read takes a lot of time, and Nero's reactions today have already convinced me that he's scum. I'm willing to make the time to case him if that's what it takes to get him lynched.

[Leonshade]

but I'm not flipping scum. So I don't understand why your RC read won't change when that happens.

RC is not 100% town for me. But if all my townreads are correct, then D1 and D2 had literally 100% of the scumteam sitting back and doing nothing.

[Leonshade]

Vecna and LUV, what do you think of Nero's reactions at the moment? Especially 11690 and 11694.

[Leonshade]

Leonshade your case on Nero is contrived, you aren't scumhunting you're just trying to find fault with his play and manipulate it into a scumread. I don't buy that you forgot why you were townleaning Nero. I don't buy any of your stances. You haven't been evaluating anything in this game with the slightest degree of genuine thought.

I don't think you've been scumhunting, I think you've been throwing shade at poorly/weirdly playing townies.

Most of Nero's aggression has been directed towards the most widely read players so saying that he's attacking slots playing poorly is just factually incorrect.

Nero's play has not been great by any means but his exchange with you at least actually displays the desire to analyze what is going on rather than push a narrative.

Bolded is exactly my point. You and MathBlade are widely townread players with occasional weird/lynchbaity behavior, and Nero has simply been arguing with you and yelling that you're scum instead of trying to scumhunt.

[Leonshade]

active scum serving to make town even more conflicted.

I'd love to hear more about this.

See above. You're among the very few scumreading Math and nancy. They would be nigh-universal townreads without you. I think only Ali has been scumreading nancy besides you.

[Leonshade]

Also, the fact that I forgot why I townleaned Nero is a sign that I was manipulated into the read.

[Leonshade]

Now we're getting somewhere. Why is Nero's push on Math not wanting to be shot the cause of the constant discord?

Not a cause, but it further adds to it. I think town egos are a large part of the town discord, but I don't believe that it's the sole source of it. Pushing ridiculous reads, like Math or nancy being scum, makes it seem like town can't agree on literally anything. I think Nero's reasons for pushing them have been pretty bad, which I'd picked up on in earlier days, but somehow I started townleaning him and started ignoring his pushes.

[Leonshade]

I don't think there's much Town discord at the moment to be honest. Aside from Nero and LUV thinking I'm scum, we're running a fairly tight ship today.

Discord was mostly D1 to D3, true.

If you take the hydra dissonance out of the equation, Nero's push on Math makes a lot of sense from a logic standpoint if you consider that he obviously doesn't have an understanding on Math's play style. I don't see how his push really added to the chaos compared to PV's push on Math.

Yeah, town egos have been the largest catalyst of the discord. But probably not the ONLY one.

I'll ISO Nero later, working off memory on most of this at the moment.

P-edit: I consider it 100% impossible for nancy to be scum after the way Spiffeh replaced out. That replace-out makes zero sense from a scum perspective. There is zero reason for me to reconsider my nancy read after that.

[Leonshade]

Even if all my other reasons for scumreading Nero are shit, Nero's reactions today have been scummy as hell.

[Leonshade]

A replace out for non-game reasons is null. A replace out for in-game reasons is not.

Spiffeh replaced out because of players claiming and fishing for PRs. That is a town player being annoyed at the game state. Scum does not replace out for that reason.

[Leonshade]

So sick of people townreading others because they scumread me.

I claim scum, quicklynch me now.

[Leonshade]

My case on Nero is being ignored because people scumread me. Lynch me so you can actually read the things I've been saying.

[Leonshade]

The result confirmed Maxous as town, not Creature as scum.

If you scumread me, lynch me today. It'll show how ass-backwards your reads are.

[Leonshade]

If now conf!town Maxous gets lynched, I will be lynched tomorrow. And that's probably the endgame.

[Leonshade]

The result confirmed Maxous as town, not Creature as scum.

If you scumread me, lynch me today. It'll show how ass-backwards your reads are.

I dont know if the three of you as town can fit with any of my working scenarios.....Like unless theres more than 2 scum in

cloud

/RC/Math/

Nero

/

Bolded are the scum there.

[Leonshade]

The result confirmed Maxous as town, not Creature as scum.

If you scumread me, lynch me today. It'll show how ass-backwards your reads are.

Supposing you were Town, that is literally the worst possible response you could ever have.

I don't care.

[Leonshade]

Nero/Cloud/Gork is my pool of acceptable non-Leon lynches for today.

Is Gork on V/LA?

[Leonshade]

Maxous is anything but memorable this game.

This is true, for the record. But Creature is obvtown so it doesn't matter.

Why did the Gork wagon end? Besides nancy yelling at people. Nothing about his reactions to the wagon screamed town.

[Leonshade]

Also remember that Math was the one that was trying to narrow down who got the pyramids. And Math doesn't lie as scum so...Math and scum team successfully POE who has the pyramids and kills them?

Example. << Here you call me a liar.

You said that you don't lie as scum. I think you were telling the truth about looking for the pyramids and you found them and killed them.

If Math is scum, why would they want to kill the pyramids? Killing a VT is better than killing the pyramids.

Also, Mathblade fits decently well with team1 if were wrong about the town assumption.

Can someone link me some Titus-scum games? I need to do some investigating there since Titus was awfully quick to TR me which usually doesnt happen.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=69021

Game with both Titus and Math as scum (though at different times).

[Leonshade]

I retract my scumclaim, I've regained my interest in the game.

{Ali, Creature, Maxous, MathBlade, nancy}
{LilUziVert, NoticeMeSenpai, RadiantTroubadour, Vecna}
{CaesarWillsIt, davesaz, KidAmn} <null/mixed
{CloudKicker, Gorkington, Nero Cain}

I think we can find 4/5 scum in my null or below reads.

[Leonshade]

Caesar claiming to build the IC wonder makes him probtown, it would be too risky for him to make that claim as scum, especially if Caesar has priority. If he was scum and didn't try to build the wonder, he risks a townie without priority trying to build the wonder and confirming Caesar as a liar.

Agreeing that dave is probtown after deciding to cop Maxous and Creature.

{Alisae, Creature, MathBlade, Maxous, nancy}
{Caesar, davesaz, Lil Uzi Vert, NoticeMeSenpai,, RadiantCowbells, Vecna}
{-}
{KidAmn}
{CloudKicker, Gorkington, Nero}

But that's only four, and I still don't think PV is scum (nor agree with Creature that the setup is inherently scum-sided). Who's the scum in my TRs?

[Leonshade]

Ali having the Mausoleum was obvious, not sure how you didn't pick up on the "chocolate chip cookie" crumbing LUV.

[Leonshade]

I mean I also slipped it on day 2. But ok.

I don't remember this.

N1 I probably would've neighborized Vecna.

[Leonshade]

Davesaz is essentially conftown. Maxous and Creature share alignment. RC doesn't do cases as either alignment. He "checks out" as scum. I can read RC better than nearly anyone on site. He's just waiting to read the room right now.

{RC, Leonshade, Creature, Maxous} are all scum.

If you mean all town, yes. Maaaaybe RC is the scum in my TRs (vindicating me on Skies), but probably not.

[Leonshade]

501 pages and still no scum lynch in sight.

Call me when you don't want to lynch me.

[Leonshade]

theres always that distinc resistance when it comes to leon even tho he outright scumtold and outed a few terrible posts,

he also went on his reads on myself when i didnt change mine which is another scumtell

What does the bolded refer to?

12582: If Gorkington is town as well, I really don't know what's going on. My PoE is down to three people at this point, my reads must be garbage.

{Alisae, Creature, MathBlade, Maxous, nancy}
{Caesar, davesaz, LUV, RC, Senpai, Vecna}
{-}
{KidAmn, Nero, CloudKicker}

Have I been pocketed?

[Leonshade]

While RC's defense is what's actually going on, Vecna did put it into perspective why he's scumreading me.

Code Geass was the result of a lot of time, effort and investment, none of which I've really had for this game. I didn't have the time to follow the game in the early game, I stopped putting in effort after the first couple days and my investment has dwindled a lot. I didn't even start putting in the time to figure out who has which wonder (which Code Geass!Leon would've done) until the time between my "scumclaim" and my temporary re-investment into the game. Even then I didn't figure out that davesaz had the investigation wonder until Gork and Vecna stated it.

I won't cry if I get lynched, my play here certainly doesn't warrant me being townread.

If I have to defend myself, I will say that the reasons I've been scumread are largely due to my lack of apparent effort, especially after D1/D2. This is due to lack of town motivation due to us doing so poorly. If I was scum, what reason would I have to be unmotivated? The game would be going really well from the POV of scum!Leon, who was largely avoiding suspicion in the early game. I don't claim to be a great scum player, but I think I at least could have kept up my D1/D2 level of play.

The above is largely WIFOM (I could just be faking apathy as a calculated move), but I'll say it for the sake of transparency.

I will say that there's been an unusual amount of VT claims lately (I count five including me, I might be forgetting someone), which makes me wonder whether they're all truthful. There's been 16 wonders available, with only three Wonders dead and 16 players remaining. That includes the two scum wonders, both of which I assume the scum would have. Since claiming a Wonder you don't have is too risky, the Encryptor and Janitor would pretty much be forced to claim VT.

[Leonshade]

I think just one scumflip would clear a lot of things up. I think there's at least two scum in my bottom tier, I don't know where to start looking in my town tiers.

Calling Gork town for that post is premature, but neither am I comfortable lynching him today (and he's not on the table anyway). I'm willing to lynch anyone on my bottom tier.

[Leonshade]

Point out the same thing happened to the Gork wagon turning into a Nero wagon and happened on previously fast-pushed wagons on town -> omg Kid is scum with Nero

90% of the reason I'm up for lynch is Yuri lurking so hard he got replaced

I just have no fucking appetite for this game tbh, it's half a dozen people swinging their metaphorical dick around and every time I come back to it there's another 10-15 pages that could be 3-5 if people learned to condense their fucking thoughts

Scumteam is probably 4 of Leon/Alisae/Creature/Maxous/Gork/RC

Do whatever you feel like you have to do, IDGAF, I failed to build Hanging Gardens N1 and Chichen Itza N3, get it over with

At least four town here (the first four). What are your reads on Senpai, CK and LUV?

[Leonshade]

KidAmn's case on me and Creature is largely based on pre-flip associatives. The cooperation between me and Creature's been pretty obvious, but that's usually a sign of town interaction, not scumbuddies.

10256/10257 - Creature chainsaws for Leon, regurgitating the "inevitability" of Sondam's wagon.

Get ouf of Leonshade.

Their lynch was inevitable anyway.

That's not a chainsaw, that's just plain defense. It's not even accompanied with a vote.

8120 - Gosh, guys, why don't you remember that you ALWAYS think Town!Creature is scum?

Let me remind you of that, thanks to my detailed knowledge of Creature's meta from outta nowhere.

What do you mean out of nowhere? I've played with Creature in plenty of games, and I've been in two games with town!Creature and town!Maria where they scumread each other (Dota Mafia R2 and WWE Mafia). Furthermore, by this point I've made my townread on Creature very clear:

Spoiler:

Creature is town and I will vehemently oppose all attempts to claim otherwise.

Catching up later.

Town

Akane & Nebby
Creature
Fro99er
Lil Uzi Vert
PeregrineV
Sondam
Vecna

Scum

Yuri
NoticeMeSenpai

That's what I got so far. What I've seen of JaeReed doesn't look like town!JaeReed, so he can join the scumpool. I could also see ABR as scum, popping in just to OMGUS DEO after doing literally nothing for so long looks bad.

Creature was already on the wagon.

Drixx would not be an ideal choice for the treestump, I was pinged by their entrance and they seem to be struggling with keeping up with the game state, so even if they're town they wouldn't be the best choice. Creature would be my first choice. Vecna is another good one, but I'd be at least a bit paranoid about Vecna, whereas Creature is easy to read.

I TR Creature, but I don't remember him stating an SR on Vecna and the Kyouko wagon was gaining momentum.

"if he's town" so it's literally his town meta according to you.

no its fucking not. I'm saying that if he's town and replaced out of a game this large and bloated since there was atleast one real claim and one maybe fake claim I'm saying that that's immature as hell. I don't think I've played with Spiff recently at all. How would I know his meta?

Ohhh I thought you were saying "Spiffeh tends to be a big baby as he's town" not "if he was town in this game, he's a big baby".

leon/creature/sodam/dave/????? team?

All town except maybe Dave. Why did you stop scumreading Vecna?

[Leonshade]

I just realized that if you highlight text before you hit the quote button, it only quotes the quoted text. I've been doing it wrong for so long.

6160/6161 - ALL ABOARD!

VOTE: SSBM_Kyouko

We could always try.

VOTE: ssbm_Kyouko

lalalalala

How does such an obvious simultaneous jump on the wagon increase your scumread? Oh, and you ignored the context:

At this point I'm more confident that Kyouko will flip scum than ABR, but I'm also confident that Vecna will flip town and I don't want his lynch to happen.

I could get behind a Kyouko lynch tbh.

8946 - More chainsaw for Creature on Leon's part.

I don't want to catch up right now.

I'll just point to this page next time someone says Creature is scum.

I like Creature's PoE scumpool, only one I would immediately take off is Senpai. Don't want to lynch in Yuri/Sondam today, but if I'm going to start doubting my TRs they would be the first two to go.

Do you just use "chainsaw" to mean defense?

[Leonshade]

In summary - this is why I don't trust whatever conf-scum Creature is claiming (attachment to my No. 1 SR and consistent defence of them), and this is why Leonshade needs to hang - hopping onto multiple mislynches late in the day while encouraging town to look at everyone else on those wagons, and when pressed on his jumping onto them, claims it was totally not his fault, the lynches were inevitable and he just sped it up. This, plus Creature outta nowhere chainsawing him despite neither of them ever really committing to a solid TR with reasoning on each other (apart from Leon calling Creature vs. Sondam a "TvT spat" in 7531) - looking through their ISO the only times they seem to really interact is to defend each other or to hop on the same wagons. I'm not 100% on Creature and I'm willing to wait and see on his RB result on Gork, but the amount of interaction between him and Leon has me seriously worried.

Hmm, I'm not sure whether your case is scummy, or just based on faulty reasoning. I know it's wrong, which skews my perspective. Nobody else seems to have really reacted to your case, I'd like for others to take a closer look at it and see what they think.

At the same time, you're in my PoE and it doesn't look like Nero is happening. I started townreading Yuri due to their posting while they were being wagoned, but their activity peaked at that point and largely dropped off afterwards. It could be that they just upped their game to avoid being lynched, then went back to lurking afterwards.

I don't really have a great reason to believe that you're scum, but Nero doesn't seem to be happening and I still think my PoE is largely correct, with two/three erroneous townreads.

VOTE: KidAmn

I think KidAmn/CK/Nero has at least two, if not three scum in it. I also think that if KidAmn flips scum, Gork is town (as KidAmn tries to push Nero being a counterwagon to Gork).

[Leonshade]

New vecna readslist for Leonshade to copy:

Town;
Vecna
Luv
Nancy
Mathblade
Cloudkicker

Probably town;
Davesaz
Alisae
Caesar (on the condition of palaces being built)
Gorkington/Nero/RC (biggest question marks in this group)

Dont know;
Maxous
Creature
NoticeMeSenpai

Lynchpool/scumpool
KidAmn
Leonshade

Not going to change my reads because they're similar to yours, that would be the scummy thing to do. The idea that you've been floating of me copying your reads has always been pretty ridiculous, but I don't really know how to respond to it, besides that it's wrong.

[Leonshade]

Who are your "weakest" town reads, Leon?

Gorkington and davesaz, followed by Senpai and LUV. Gorkington isn't based on much, but especially that one post I pointed out showed some towny thinking. Davesaz is just based on his use of the PR to essentially clear Maxous. Senpai's stronger due to his hard defense of Creature, but I suppose there's a chance he didn't expect it to have such a strong effect (or was looking for the towncred). LUV I don't have much reason to scumread, but him being scum wouldn't surprise me like many of my other TRs.

[Leonshade]

Shrug, just being honest. I'm the probable lynch for today, and you're not only among the few I'm comfortable lynching at the moment, but the most probable counterwagon.

[Leonshade]

Senpai's stronger due to his hard defense of Creature

Scum know who town are so "defending" isn't really a town tell. What do you think of my reasoning that Senpai is prob scum for mostly tunneling Vecna the whole game and not really having any scum reads outside of that? Also Dave is prob town due to that wonder uness you think he's scum with Creature and/or Max.

My reasoning at the time:

excuse me if I don't trust the reads of someone that has been on both mislynches.

Also I find it hard to believe that a town Math is so dejected that she's goinf to play from the sidelines.

I'll agree to this.

I've seen dejected Math before, I can believe their play here.

Senpai is town as fuck for 7593, single-handedly course-correcting the game state.

Do you still feel the same knowing that its based on outdated meta that no longer applies?

I think the only reason for Senpai to do what they did is if Creature is buddies with them. A generally easy to TR Creature getting wagoned only benefits scum, and Notice went in hard on defending Creature. I don't think the potential towncred would be a worthy trade-off for stopping the wagon on Creature. I also TR Creature and LUV and agree that the two of them being the top wagons was horrible. Notice went out of their way to change the direction of the game away from a direction I loathed, going against a universal TR's reads in the process. I don't see any reason for scum to do any of the above except to defend their buddy, and I don't see Creature as scum here.

Whether or not the meta is accurate is irrelevant for my TR on Senpai.

Scum often TR a mislynch for towncred, but they usually still want the actual lynch to go through. What Senpai did actually stopped the wagon.

There could be a bit of hindsight bias here, since there's no guarantee that Senpai's defense would've done anything. They COULD have just defended Creature for the towncred and done so in a way that would match Jae's town game for the towncred.

Tunneling Vecna and having no other SRs could just be due to a lack of engagement with the game. I've been struggling finding strong SRs to stick to, since nobody stands out as obvscum and there's so much content that analyzing it would take forever.

I don't really think Dave is scum, but since it's only based on that one thing it COULD be wrong.

You could add RC to my list of "weak" TRs, since I was scumreading the slot before. I really do TR his entrance though, and while RC is usually the first to claim that you can't accurately read him, I'm not going to change my read just because "it's RC".

[Leonshade]

Nero, I still don't like your reactions today, but I'm willing to think that I could be wrong on you. Usually when I craft a "grand narrative" of why someone is scum, it's because I'm grasping at straws. It usually turns out wrong. I'm trying to stick to the basics now that my interest is re-invigorated.

[Leonshade]

What if its a Senpai-Creature and that's why Senpai didn't want the wagon to happen?

Lke Creature's early game was to ask questions and act like he's oblivious.

I suspected Creature the one time he was scum against me, and I generally find him easy to read. His townread is one of the last I'd doubt.

I'm trying to stick to the basics now that my interest is re-invigorated.

What re-invigorated your interest?

RC replacing in to provide a fresh perspective, as well as just taking the time to think about the game instead of simply following it.

[Leonshade]

Like I know I'm town and I don't feel strongly that Kid or Cloud are scum. I could but a LUV town. Dave, Creature, Max are all mixed in together. Caser is going after the IC wonder so ok. That leaves us with a pool of...


Alisae
MathBlade
Leonshade
Gorkington
RadiantCowbells
Vecna
NoticeMeSenpai
nancy

and there are deff scum in there.

This isn't the same RC from timeshift. Ali is being all lurky and thats not thier town meta. I think Senpai having a shit ton of town reads and tunneling the same slots like the whole game is prob scum. If we aren't doing RC today (like we should) I'd do Gork or Leon.

Why are you townreading Kid and Cloud? I remember you explaining Cloud with meta, but why Kid?

Strange that you exclude the two players I suspect of being your buddies. I don't know if you'd be that blatant about it, but that's just WIFOM thinking.

[Leonshade]

So everyone is just ignoring KidAmn's case.

[Leonshade]

you're scum so it's okay for you to be a hypocrite and I'm sure Alisae, Leon, Creature and Maxous will all be along to explain that

It's not OK, but if you've ever played with RC you know that this is just his playstyle. If RC is scum here, his playstyle isn't indicative of that.

If you really think that that's the scumteam, I don't know what to tell you. More likely you just don't want to SR a buddy (since there's no need to thus far).

[Leonshade]

So everyone is just ignoring KidAmn's case.

?

Page 507 is where my posts are. 11362 is KidAmn's case. I'd like some eyeballs on it to see if others think the case is scummy, or just wrong.

[Leonshade]

"Coaching" is a garbage tell, especially when scum have daychat.

But there's also town who believe in this tell (I've used it myself, didn't work out), so I ignored it.

[Leonshade]

Which reads are dependent on me flipping town?

[Leonshade]

Stick to this Leonshade wagon no matter what

Nancy, Nero, and one from the KidAmn wagon: Its hammer time. Hammer leonshade.

Go.

Do you even want to figure this game out, or do you just want to lynch me? You've largely ignores my latest posts.

[Leonshade]

at this point a leon flip is high informative

really?

what will you learn from a scum flip and from a town flip?

there has been like 2-3 cws to leon, i think its good info to go back to and revisit

... Will read the rest later.

But this sticks out to me. This only gives you something if you do VCA and at this point we need a scum lynch.

Tell me what you've learned from the prior 3 mislynches? Show me what you've learned from that.

i didnt read prior to my replace-in but i will reread today with the flip

"Didn't read the last three mislynches, but I swear I'll do it after one more."

[Leonshade]

I wonder who tomorrow's "informative flip" will be, since the last three didn't get us enough info. Hopefully there will be as much "info" as possible going to LYLO.

[Leonshade]

davesaz should just be on whomever he likes.

I mean my scumreads are kind of irrelevant at this point in the day because Leonshade is clearly the only lynch that is happening.

And now you understand why I voted Sondam.

Compromise lynches hit town.

[Leonshade]

You said that Sondam was the "best lynch", actually, and that was a flashwagon when deadline did not necessitate a flashwagon so no I don't understand why you voted Sondam

I said "there won't be a better lynch today". I was still arguing for other lynches, but Sondam was where the wind was blowing. I preferred Sondam to the other popular wagons of the day, and I wasn't going to get the ones I wanted.

[Leonshade]

@ Leon

RC replacing in to provide a fresh perspective

he really hasn't. He's scumreading me but the reason he's given he can't or won't back up. All off the Dave, Yuri and SSBM have been major lynch contenders so other than his "scumread" on me he's harping on things that have been a thing for awhile now. So I'm not really seeing whats "fresh".

I didn't realize this eas a question, thought you just disagreed.

The reads are fresh, scum!Nero was on almost nobody's radar and you being scum makes sense in combination with the other scumreads. It made immediate sense to me.

[Leonshade]

viewtopic.php?t=70516&f=11&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

and that timeshift game I posted re the most current RC town games. In neither game does he singularly focus on one slot without rhyme or reason. He even goes so far to suggest that Alisae's tunnel of someone in that newbie game was "really dumb, regardless of alignment" How in the world you guys think he'd tunnel on me like that after saying that.

And that's even ignoring all the scum motivation in trying to strongarm a mislynch.

Check the Spyro game (can't link since phoneposting) from my topics. RC strongarmed a lynch D1 (and it flipped town), tunneling is absolutely in his towm playbook.

But the suggested scumteam by RC makes sense to me as someone who's been in the gamr this whole time, things clicked into place once he came in. I finally let go of my Skies SR and gained the SR on you.

[Leonshade]

vote:Leon

Good thing you've already seeded the "Leon was bad" excuse so you don't have to take responsibility for my flip.

[Leonshade]

But the suggested scumteam by RC makes sense to me as someone who's been in the gamr this whole time, things clicked into place once he came in.

ok, I pushed for a Dave lynch. Why do you think that makes sense as scumbuddies?

I'm townreading Dave, I think you're scum with CK, KidAmn and 1/2 others.

[Leonshade]

Maxous being quiet has been a constant all game.

Creature should probably be leveraging his obvtown status, but he doesn't have leadership skills.

[Leonshade]

I don't understand why people are scumraeding obvtown Creature because of meh Maxous, who could've gone either way before the cop.

[Leonshade]

2/15 are already low odds to catch two scum, so a random cop check would most likely hit town.

Creature's playing his town game, so that raises the odds way higher.

Maxous, while meh, has been different from his Undertale game, raising the odds ever so slightly higher.

Creature/Maxous is not scum. If Maxous is scum, Vecna is gis buddy and predicted that Maxous would be copped (incredibly unlikely) or davesaz is scum and faked the result (pretty unlikely).

[Leonshade]

what happened to gorkington? Why are you no longer on his case?

IDK, i have too many scum reads. Maybe Ali wouldn't blatantly sheep his scumbuddy like that but the whole lurking is really odd.

"Too many scumreads" when you have barely five and said there was no problem with nancy having six.

[Leonshade]

2/15 are already low odds to catch two scum, so a random cop check would most likely hit town.

Creature's playing his town game, so that raises the odds way higher.

Maxous, while meh, has been different from his Undertale game, raising the odds ever so slightly higher.

Creature/Maxous is not scum. If Maxous is scum, Vecna is gis buddy and predicted that Maxous would be copped (incredibly unlikely) or davesaz is scum and faked the result (pretty unlikely).

What? where did I ever predict Maxous would be copped?

Also, creature has done a few things that pinged me as potentially scum this game. Very little, but its possible.

Maxous is different from PYP, and doesnt show much interest in hunting this game for some reason.

I could totally see it, especially after their weird reactions after the result was published.

You using your PR is one of the two alternatives to the maxous/Cresture result being true. But that is by far the least likely explanation

[Leonshade]

Leonshade is the scum with the vig wonder

Would have already used it and shot a mislynchable player for future towncred if so.

WIFOM sure, but I'm not making it out of today alive anyway.

[Leonshade]

But the vig was in play on the nighr before last. A successful vig plus NK would've brought the numbers to even anyway.

[Leonshade]

Ahh nvm I see what you mean.

[Leonshade]

Not playing for survival anymore. Nobody is going to start a counterwagon. Even if I was scum, it would be bussing time.

[Leonshade]

If you're a townplayer that isn't actively scumreading me, I recommend learning from my mistakes. Wait to see who will hammer instead of rushing to end the day. I'm getting lynched here 100%, so squeeze every drop of info out of it.

[Leonshade]

So I'm actually townreading everyone off my wagon, with the exception of Gorkington. Is the entire scumteam pushing for my lynch? I'm flattered.

[Leonshade]

Though more likely I'm wrong on someone.

[Leonshade]

Taking out Creature/Maxous/davesaz.

MathBlade is still town.

Gorkington is the least likely town off my wagon.

So either I've got four scum on my wagon, or I'm wrong on one of Ali/RC.

Ali could be scum if I'm really underestimating his scum game due to Spyro. But at that point, either Senpai is his buddy and decided to use his super-secret tell to clear Ali while nancy is also in this game, or Senpai's secret tell is wrong. I would guess the latter, if Ali is scum.

RC could still be scum, I guess. I don't have a reason other than PoE to believe that at this point.

So there's a minimum of three, with a possibility of four scum on my wagon.

[Leonshade]

Leon, if youre town please just selfhammer. Dont make this drag on longer than it has to.

Zero chance that I'll self-hammer here. I want to see who will hammer me.

[Leonshade]

Leonshade (8):

NoticeMeSenpai, KidAmn, CloudKicker, Lil Uzi Vert, Caesar Wills It, Vecna, nancy, Nero Cain

So at least three scum here.

nancy is right out.

Caesar is eliminated for now, unless something really fishy happens with the IC Wonder.

My current theory of CK/KidAmn/Nero is still alive.

There could be one scum in Senpai/LUV/Vecna if I'm wrong on one of the above.

Senpai being scum means that they were willing to risk stopping a Creature mislynch for the sake of towncred. The defense was a direct appeal to nancy, whom Jae seems close with, so it wasn't just a defense for the sake of appearances. If Creature somehow flips scum, Senpai could be his buddy, but other than that I don't see Senpai having scum motivation for stopping Creature's lynch. Or they just REALLY wanted that towncred.

LUV is the least likely of the three to be scum. Only points for scum!LUV is that he's been coasting at times, but it feels more like town apathy than anything scummy.

Vecna feels like he just wants to lynch me more than figure this game out. He's largely ignored my posting for the last couple of days, except when he can throw shade at them. He's also lead the charge for the last three mislynches (and hid behind "policy lynch" for Sondam), currently blindly leading the lynch on me.

At the same time, for this to be his scum game, he has to be REALLY good as scum. He's always been transparent about his thoughts, which have been really consistent and believable throughout. Some of his plays (like claiming the wonder) would also be really risky to come from scum. While Vecna being scum would explain a lot, it's really hard for me to believe that he could pull this off as scum.

[Leonshade]

I don't know that full well, I haven't liked your posting recently.

The reason it's hard to find a hammerer is because of the remaining players, a few are townreading me and don't want to participate in a mislynch (Creature, MathBlade, RC), Ali trusts RC and the rest are either lurking, or scum who want to stay off the mislynch wagon.

[Leonshade]

Never known either Creature nor Math to vote their TRs as a compromise, except maybe when deadline is looming. RC hasn't expressed doubts, he said that I was most likely town, just not a lock read. He also told nancy to get off my wagon so scum could hammer, so I think he sees the value in being patient here.

But my point wasn't that no one was going to hammer, just why it hasn't happened yet. I think who does end up hammering me could be VERY interesting, especially if it's not just impatient town. I want scum to squirm and have to hammer instead of risk me not getting lynched and potentially copped.

I haven't liked you ignoring most of my recent posts, except to throw shade at me (12877). Probably still more likely that you're just tunneled, but I don't want to ignore the possibility of you being scum, especially since this is my last chance to express that I've been paranoid about your slot.

[Leonshade]

Is Civ 6 worth getting yet? I didn't like Civ 5 before the expansions.

[Leonshade]

I'm present and see the hammer opportunity. Any remaining discussion needed?

Still deep in the middle of discussion, give us another day or two.

[Leonshade]

And all scum are probably in the list you just put up, congrats

Huh? What happened to your reads that they got to this point?

[Leonshade]

Even ignoring everything else, for all scum to be on that list, zero scum would have to be on that wagon.

[Leonshade]

Even ignoring everything else, for all scum to be on that list, zero scum would have to be on my wagon.

EBWOP.

[Leonshade]

VOTE: KidAmn

!

[Leonshade]

I'm not pushing for there being three scum, I have three scumreads. There's a difference.

[Leonshade]

I was about to pull out my Lion King GIFs to AtE Ali, but this new development intrigues me.

[Leonshade]

Wait, you're not the Mausoleum? Or you are, and PV misunderstood and you answered anyway? Or WIFOM?

[Leonshade]

Keep an eye out for Creature/Uzi combo.

What makes you think this combo?

Nero, why would scum!Leon possibly want to push that narative?

too dumb to be scum. Also him suddenly realizing that I made sense as buddies with Yuri and SSBM as soon as RC started screaming my name and there was a derp wagon on me is bullshit.

You ignored my post on this page saying that I'm not floating the idea of three scum.

I even implied in the very post where I ended up with only three players below my null line that I clearly went wrong somewhere, I just don't know where.

[Leonshade]

Wish the CK wagon had picked up, I'm more confident in that slot being scum than KidAmn.

VOTE: Kid Amn

VOTE: KidAmn

at least try and hide it guys/gals/etc

Any other comments on the game? Now that you've gone to "lurk until Leon gets lynched" mode.

@Vecna:

Why doesn't the fact that my wagon is at best 1/8 scum in your reads make you doubt your reads? If you think I'm scum, why don't you think scum is bussing? I've been the most probable lynch practically all day. If my buddies were being this obvious about staying off/trying to derail my lynch (with a parity cop in play no less), they would be easy pickings after my near-inevitable lynch. And for me, knowing that I'm town, the idea that the entire scumteam is staying off my wagon makes no sense.

[Leonshade]

VOTE: Kid Amn

VOTE: KidAmn

at least try and hide it guys/gals/etc

Tbh the complete failure of the Leonshade wagon to gain any traction says a lot about how confident scum are they can derail this town

Then again, it did work for them the last 3 times

There's nothing between these two posts despite tons of content between, KidAmn is getting away with doing nothing due to the wagon negotiations.

[Leonshade]

Leonshade, its either/or

If im correct in my assumptions flipping you puts a very obvious bullseye on other scum players. Them not wanting to bus you then might make some sense since theyd rather have the game lynch elsewhere so it remains unresolved. The fact that all these attempts are sprouting up left, right and center to prod to see where other wagons can go do make it feel this way.

If im being played for a fool, its a largely scumdriven wagon - most likely with CK, Nero and K-A being scum.

Third option is ofcourse that youre scum together with those 3 names, but im not going to entertain that option for now.

Something fishy is going on here, regardless of your allignment.

This is at least comforting to hear.

CK seems to have disappeared as well, though he hasn't been posting much elsewhere either. But KidAmn ignoring most of the content in between to laugh at being wagoned shows that he's following the game but not participating.

[Leonshade]

@Vecna: Why doesn't the fact that my wagon is at best 1/8 scum in your reads make you doubt your reads? If you think I'm scum, why don't you think scum is bussing? I've been the most probable lynch practically all day. If my buddies were being this obvious about staying off/trying to derail my lynch (with a parity cop in play no less), they would be easy pickings after my near-inevitable lynch. And for me, knowing that I'm town, the idea that the entire scumteam is staying off my wagon makes no sense.

...I'm just gonna point this out since I believe it extends to most of the scum team at this point and I feel like this is a fear tactic.

If scum have obviously not bussed (or been able to push through a bus) all game, why in hell do you think I would start now and stay on the wagon? I could have easily springboarded on to Nero or Kid by this stage if I were scum trying to distance from buddy!Leon. This is a fact based on the gamestate.

I'm not scumreading you, so why is this relevant?

VOTE: Kid Amn

VOTE: KidAmn

at least try and hide it guys/gals/etc

Tbh the complete failure of the Leonshade wagon to gain any traction says a lot about how confident scum are they can derail this town

Then again, it did work for them the last 3 times

There's nothing between these two posts despite tons of content between, KidAmn is getting away with doing nothing due to the wagon negotiations.

My vote is where I want it, I've made my case, I've not really been given anything I can respond to in defence of myself because the SRs on my slot are mostly from Yuri's previous actions. If you have questions you want answered fire away.

You never responded to my critique of your case (12666 onwards). You did respond to my vote on you right after, so you were clearly reading at that time.

[Leonshade]

What did Leon claim?

VT (tried to build Petra D2, double cop wonder D3).

[Leonshade]

Both were investigative Wonders that I tried to build.

What did Leon claim?

VT (tried to build Petra D2, double cop wonder D3).

Why did you try to build the double cop wonder? You dont think a town Leonshade is a likely kill?

Not in this game, I've been pretty down low. In general I don't tend to be an early NK, I'm rarely at the top of people's townreads early on.

Also, why try to build the double-cop wonder without priority? As opposed to saving up for a wonder day4? Doesnt sound like something mechanics guy Leon would do....

Kind of a Hail Mary. Sondam self-voting without claiming Petra when I went for it was really annoying, so I just submitted for the next investigative ability immediately, hoping to get lucky.

[Leonshade]

@Vecna: Why doesn't the fact that my wagon is at best 1/8 scum in your reads make you doubt your reads? If you think I'm scum, why don't you think scum is bussing? I've been the most probable lynch practically all day. If my buddies were being this obvious about staying off/trying to derail my lynch (with a parity cop in play no less), they would be easy pickings after my near-inevitable lynch. And for me, knowing that I'm town, the idea that the entire scumteam is staying off my wagon makes no sense.

...I'm just gonna point this out since I believe it extends to most of the scum team at this point and I feel like this is a fear tactic.

If scum have obviously not bussed (or been able to push through a bus) all game, why in hell do you think I would start now and stay on the wagon? I could have easily springboarded on to Nero or Kid by this stage if I were scum trying to distance from buddy!Leon. This is a fact based on the gamestate.

I'm not scumreading you, so why is this relevant?

Pointing out that if you're scum there's a good reason gamestate-wise that not many scum would be on your wagon.

The point is relevant regardless of having made it about myself. I don't expect scum in this gamestate to suddenly go bus heavy.

If you're town it's a different story, obviously, but I was pointing out why the argument you're making there is a fear tactic to get people to unvote. Town!Leon understands that scum likely aren't bussing here.

If the scumteam was in the proposed {Leon, Creature, Maxous, Ali, RC, Math} pool or similar, while maybe Creature and Math's jumps on me would be suspicious, everyone else could justify jumping on me pretty easily. I don't think it's sensible to say that the scumteam is me plus the majority of the KidAmn wagon. If that was the case, the scumteam would be fucked the second I flip scum.

My statement was not a "fear tactic" to scare people off of my mislynch, it was directed specifically at Vecna's reads. His reads don't make sense to me even from the perspective I'm scum. As town, I know they're garbage.

[Leonshade]

Wagons iirc were kidamn (unlikely to go through and more likely to be town than Leon)

Why do you townread him more than me? He's at L-3 and I'm at L-2, why is he unlikely to go through? What do you think are the reasons behind it being unlikely to go through?

Nero (which I think isn't likely to go through and Leons vote there put me off entirely).

Why would you be scared off a read based on one read? Are you that confident in your SR on me?

A common thing with all of these btw is that they seem to be suffering from the apathy I'm struggling against here. To be honest this game just feels like we're waiting to lose and it does kill motivation. LUV giving up for a long time was how I felt, and Creature complaining about people basically not following his reads also, and Alisae sheeping what seems to be a town RC is also relatable (hell I think at one stage I asked Ali to give me a name to sheep on for a scum flip this day phase even). They're mindsets I can understand and have been feeling and so that's another point for them being my alignment imo.

Those are not the only players who have suffered from apathy. How do you feel about my apathy D3/earlier D4?

[Leonshade]

the whole "Nero, CK, Kid must be scum b/c they are town reading each other!" is very very skin deep and it makes very little sense in a 21 players. I'd like the two clowns that are pushing the idea that we are all scum together to plausibly explain who our other two "buddies" are.

Arrived at all the reads independently, partially by PoE. The fact that you're townreading each other for weak reasons and pushing the same mislynch wagon gives the theory more credibility.

Other two buddies is a work in progress, but asking to have the entire scumteam solved before a single scum flip is ridiculous.

[Leonshade]

Ali, try to remember the good times. The times when we solved the game in Code Geass. The times when we fooled the town in Spyro. We could win this game, together.

[Leonshade]

Also Leon, wheres my Lion King gifs? Ali was jsut scumreading me in Code geass and then got shot in the face.

You don't seem the sentimental type. But I'll try.

Vecna, don't lynch me...

[Leonshade]

from where i stand from having skimmed this game slightly,
kid looks way worse than leon to me.

I think that's a negative on Kid/Gork as scum together. Gork could be the tipping point between the two wagons.

[Leonshade]

leon did you ever respond to vecna's big case on you involving meta?
or at least respond in detail to the general sentiment of your play here being worse than in geass?

I did (if you mean 12598):

Spoiler:

While RC's defense is what's actually going on, Vecna did put it into perspective why he's scumreading me.

Code Geass was the result of a lot of time, effort and investment, none of which I've really had for this game. I didn't have the time to follow the game in the early game, I stopped putting in effort after the first couple days and my investment has dwindled a lot. I didn't even start putting in the time to figure out who has which wonder (which Code Geass!Leon would've done) until the time between my "scumclaim" and my temporary re-investment into the game. Even then I didn't figure out that davesaz had the investigation wonder until Gork and Vecna stated it.

I won't cry if I get lynched, my play here certainly doesn't warrant me being townread.

If I have to defend myself, I will say that the reasons I've been scumread are largely due to my lack of apparent effort, especially after D1/D2. This is due to lack of town motivation due to us doing so poorly. If I was scum, what reason would I have to be unmotivated? The game would be going really well from the POV of scum!Leon, who was largely avoiding suspicion in the early game. I don't claim to be a great scum player, but I think I at least could have kept up my D1/D2 level of play.

The above is largely WIFOM (I could just be faking apathy as a calculated move), but I'll say it for the sake of transparency.

I will say that there's been an unusual amount of VT claims lately (I count five including me, I might be forgetting someone), which makes me wonder whether they're all truthful. There's been 16 wonders available, with only three Wonders dead and 16 players remaining. That includes the two scum wonders, both of which I assume the scum would have. Since claiming a Wonder you don't have is too risky, the Encryptor and Janitor would pretty much be forced to claim VT.

I've also talked about the above more in general here and there, but I think the above covers most of it.

[Leonshade]

Leonshade you never responded to me calling one of your posts a scumpost.

Where was this? Ctrl + F found nothing.

[Leonshade]

have you ever gotten overly apathetic in a game as town in a game with a lot of mechanics before?

That's really specific, but probably not.

Last game I remember being apathetic in was Undertale, for somewhat similar reasons (large game with tons of activity). I don't like catching up, but I don't like ignoring large chunks of the game either, so too much activity can kill my interest. I prefer smaller games for many reasons, I only really join larger games when the mechanics or flavor seem interesting.

can you go into the general mindset you had when you were voting
beeboy on D1
abr on D2
sondam on D3?

Here's my summary on my beeboy vote at the time:

Spoiler:

Ah fuck.

VOTE: beeboy

L-1.

What changed your mind?

I never had beeboy as town. I checked out your ISO and your case is largely based on meta, but you're town here so I'm willing to sheep you.

Also doubting my ABR SR. Their play seems consistent now that they've explained their viewpoint.

But most importantly: we need a flip.

At that point in the game, I wasn't caught up and the game was still really active. I was literally just asking people to give me something to go on, so that the day could end, we could have a flip and I could catch up (see 4051). I ended up sheeping onto the beeboy wagon.

ABR I was scumreading, but it wasn't a read I was confident on. The two major wagons of the day were ABR and Vecna, and Vecna was a strong townread with ABR leaning scum. Creature and I tried to start a Kyouko counterwagon at one point, since I was more confident in my Kyouko SR than ABR, but it didn't take off and I'd much rather have lynched ABR than Vecna. Of the three mislynches, ABR was the only one that was in my own SRs.

Sondam was an end-of-day lynch. I made a list of my lynchables (9669) and while Sondam was not in my preferred lynches, it was the only one that was gaining steam that day, so I joined it. I figured that if another wagon would start, it would be on one of the other slots that had been wagoned that day (Creature, Caesar, davesaz), all of which I wanted less than Sondam. I was townreading Sondam D1/D2, but I started doubting my TR on that slot, along with my Yuri read, when I realized I had too many townreads.

[Leonshade]

If you're a townplayer that isn't actively scumreading me, I recommend learning from my mistakes. Wait to see who will hammer instead of rushing to end the day. I'm getting lynched here 100%, so squeeze every drop of info out of it.

This is scumposting btw.

Also what happened with your SR on Gorkington?

Oh, I thought you meant you called a Gork post scumposting.

I ignored that post, I don't really know what you want me to say about it.

I really liked Gork's 12582. Though looking at that post again, I may have just liked the effort and the defense of me. The slot is hovering around the null line for me at this point, but if he's going to tip the scale in favor of the Kid wagon as opposed to mine, they can't be scum together.

[Leonshade]

which scumgames from leon do you feel resemble his play here the most?

To be fair, my only two recent scumgames of mine are WWE Mafia (both Raw and Smackdown) and Spyro the Dragon. Probably not enough data to answer a question like this.

[Leonshade]

Sorry if I'm wrong dead thread :/

If you're so wrong, why is this gif so cute?

[Leonshade]

Even without Rush Construction I might vote Nay, since it allows scum to get & deny town more PRs. With scum getting first pick, there's no way I'm voting yae.

VOTE: Nay

@Nahdia: Just to clarify, Historical Monuments passed but neither KidAmn nor Maxous had previous wonder attempts included with their flip, is this accurate?

[Leonshade]

Hi let's guarantee that scum get a loverizer and a strongman dayvig in the same phase there's no way this could possibly go wrong

Roleblocker, too. Yae is handing scum all the best scum tools on a silver platter.

So does anyone still think it's possible Creature is scum? I don't.

[Leonshade]

Ah, it's only one. But still, no thank you.

[Leonshade]

Occam's suggest they're already holding onto the vig wonder in medieval. They already have 2 kills.

So why vote to give them the third and a guaranteed win?

[Leonshade]

There's no cop on offer today. Scum can get the loverizer as long as they have at least one vanilla goon left, AND they get the vig if we vote Yae.

AND if we vote Yae, scum players with existing wonders can deny town future cops or similar.

Town has the numbers advantage. Yae actually gives scum MORE opportunities to deny town wonders.

[Leonshade]

But town can most likely get the role cop regardless. It's pretty good, since it can catch the encryptor and the other scum-only roles (as well as lying scum), but with only one Wonder each I don't think it's high priority for scum. Whereas with a second Wonder slot each, scum can be much more liberal about trying to deny town Wonders.

Theoretically Yae doubles both town and scum potential. Except town has more untapped potential than scum, due to the high number of players and low number of Wonders.

P-edit: You unvoted so this post is pretty useless now.

[Leonshade]

List of claims -
Me - Mausoleum

Pine - NOT Forbidden Palace

Dave - Chizen Itza
Vecna - Hagia Sophia
PV - Pryamids
Creature - Alhambra
Math - Stonehenge
RC - Great Wall

Hmm?

[Leonshade]

I approve of the massclaim plan for the record. If scum have the second vig, get the third one and we mislynch, it could be game over.

P-edit: Hmmmm.

[Leonshade]

Interesting that Maxous flipped with the Wonder info. Either scum doesn't have the Janitor wonder, or they didn't want to use that player for the kill for some reason.

Though honestly, scum might have just gone "fuck it" to the Janitor wonder, it's a pretty middling ability in this game.

[Leonshade]

Vecna or maybe they were doctor hunting?
He was hanging low for the majority of yesterday.

That was also my thought, it's the Occam's razor explanation (since essentially making Creature conftown would be a pretty bad play otherwise).

No Vecna, Caesar doesn't kill Maxous after I hooded him.

Why not?

[Leonshade]

It's a factional ability.
pedit: Creats is conftown.

No he's not.

Creature is town by play, and only scum if davesaz (or you) are scum with him.

[Leonshade]

Going to give a <1% chance that a townie swiped the IC wonder after Caesar publicly announced it. Either Caesar is scum, or another scum took it.

I mean, easy to prove me wrong, and if you do have the IC wonder you reveal today 100%, but don't hold your breath.

[Leonshade]

Like, how did scum even know that Maxous had the doctor? Because I sure had no goddamn clue, and I feel that this kill is totally not wonder-related unless I missed another subtle hint somewhere.

There's been a LOT of claims, and Maxous's lurking fits the profile of a doctor. Though I do agree that he's still an odd kill, not the first one I would make if I was doc hunting.

Stretching this logic to its conclusion, maybe many of the claimed VTs are telling the truth, and scum is in some of the other lurkers who could fit the profile of a doctor?

[Leonshade]

btw Leon, do you have any wonders?

Still a VT.

Another reason I don't want double Wonders, I doubt I'm the only town VT left. We can still get the best Wonders.

[Leonshade]

You're still wrong on both your scumread and me being the vig.

[Leonshade]

If scum was trying to doc hunt, this is the situation they faced N4:

Claimed VT

Nero Cain
Lil Uzi Vert
Caesar Wills It
Leonshade

Claimed PR

MathBlade
Creature
RadiantCowbells
Vecna
davesaz
Alisae

Unclaimed

CloudKicker
Gorkington
NoticeMeSenpai
nancy

Maxous

In this situation, scum decided to kill Maxous. Maxous was a bold kill due to the result with Creature. So why was he chosen, if scum was trying to PR hunt, over CloudKicker, Gorkington, Senpai and nancy? nancy's been pretty loud all game, so she's a safe choice to not be doctor. Meanwhile CK, Gorkington and Senpai's slots have been much more laid back all game, and would all be good candidates for a doc hunt kill.

Conclusion: there's scum in {CK, Gork, Senpai}. I was scumreading CK anyway, but it wouldn't surprise me for there to be at least two scum here. With two/three scum in CK/Gork/Senpai, Maxous being a doc would be a pretty obvious conclusion for scum to draw.

[Leonshade]

The idea that Maxous was a manipulative kill is really hard for me to believe. Even if Creature is somehow scum with davesaz or Vecna, killing Maxous for the sake of read manipulation or confusion wouldn't be worth it. If Creature + one other is scum, it's better to keep Maxous alive to either keep suspicion off the scum, or keep suspicion on Maxous.

So Maxous being killed as a result of doc hunting makes sense, and I think scum had a really good grasp on who the doc was due to the claims plus scum member PoE.

[Leonshade]

Great Wall was the only ascetic Wonder IIRC, so roleblocker it is.

[Leonshade]

We are unsurprised that you would so pervert the truth, Leonshade. The function of Chichen Itza is dependent on successful targeting of both subjects, so choosing anyone who had built a Great Wall would likely cause the action to fail. While We concur that the failure was possibly due to the action of a roleblocker, as your treasonous friends would almost certainly prioritize the defeat of Senator davesaz, the possible existence of a Great Wall would also stymie the effort. Your dismissal of such a possibility speaks to a desire to paint a false narrative.

We are most sorely wroth that Our mandated conviction against the scoundrel Leonshade failed not once but twice in the previous session, almost certainly due to the distracting influence of his evil friends. We shall be researching the Senate record in an attempt to identify them.

RC publicly claimed Great Wall before the end of D4. Unless dave targeted him (or RC is lying), roleblocker is the only alternative.

If davesaz targeted RC, we'll find out soon enough. If not, roleblocker is the assumption we're going with, since RC lying about Great Wall would be a testable, and as such a ridiculously risky, claim to make.

[Leonshade]

Oh.

[Leonshade]

Thought there was a chance you were fakeclaiming Great Wall (WIFOM for the potential nightkill, which town!RC seems to consider an ever-looming threat). Should've taken "pure trolling" into account.

So Great Wall is a possibility, then.

[Leonshade]

i read last pages, the doc pool analysis was good, i just think leon is discarding that doc might claim vts

That's true, though it depends on circumstance. If I was the doc, I got close enough to being lynched that I would've come clean eventually. Caesar claimed to go for the IC Wonder, so he would be unlikely to be a doc WIFOMing (bad idea for doc to bring attention to themselves like that, and he'd have to have a reason why he doesn't have the Wonder later etc.)

LUV and Nero claimed VT out of frustration due to being pushed. There wasn't much reason for them to claim anything in the first place, so if both are town, scum might have just assumed that they claimed the truth out of frustration. And if there's scum in the VT claims, makes the PoE easier.

RC's idea that Maxous was killed to make a Caesar mislynch easier... that might have been part of it, but confirming Creature for that reason doesn't seem likely. I think doc hunting (or something else I'm not thinking of?) played a role in the NK.

[Leonshade]

RC's idea that Maxous was killed to make a Caesar mislynch easier... that might have been part of it, but scum choosing to confirm Creature for that reason doesn't seem likely. I think doc hunting (or something else I'm not thinking of?) played a role in the NK.

EBWOP for clarity.

[Leonshade]

We don't need to be in the resolution phase to massclaim.

[Leonshade]

It's a question of power vs information. If a massclaim can help us solve the game, we should go for it now. If scum do have the first vig, and get the second vig today, a mislynch plus three successful kills = game over.

Alternatively, we need at least two town players with priority to go for the vig. It's a waste of priority for one of them, but it's the only way we can know that scum can't block the vig attempt. A maximum of two deaths tonight would buy us at least one more day.

[Leonshade]

Leon you have no structure built correct?

Correct. Now I'm going to borrow Vecna's shtick for a moment.

I HAVE PRIORITY AND I'M GOING TO TRY TO BUILD THE VIGILANTE WONDER. AT LEAST ONE OTHER TOWN PLAYER WITH PRIORITY SHOULD ATTEMPT TO DO THE SAME. BY THIS POINT IT'S OBVIOUS THAT SCUM TOOK THE FORBIDDEN PALACE, ALLOWING THEM TO BLOCK ONE TOWN PLAYER FROM ATTEMPTING TO BUILD A WONDER TODAY. SCUM HAVE A REALLY GOOD GRASP ON THE TOWN'S WONDERS AT THIS POINT, AT THIS POINT THERE'S NO USE ATTEMPTING TO HIDE WHO WILL TRY TO BUILD WHAT. THEY WILL BE ABLE TO GET THE VIGILANTE IF ONLY ONE TOWNIE GOES FOR IT, WE MUST HAVE AT LEAST TWO TOWN ATTEMPT IT.

SCUM GETTING THE STRONGMAN VIG COULD MEAN GAME OVER IF WE MISLYNCH, WE MUST SACRIFICE PRIORITY TO NOT LOSE TONIGHT.

DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY OBJECTIONS TO THIS PLAN?

[Leonshade]

Re: RC's reactions to thinking Nero could be the IC. At this point it's clear that scum has the Forbidden Palace, so if RC is scum, he would've known that Nero wasn't about to claim IC. Reading the reactions with that in mind, do you think that RC's reactions are genuine, or good on-the-spot improv?

My gut says the former, but I'm thinking RC is town anyway, so it could just be confbias. Would be interested to hear what others think of RC's reactions, if anything.

[Leonshade]

Oh, you did claim VT. I had that in my notes at one point, but ctrl + Fing "vt" I found nothing, should've searched for "wonder" instead.

[Leonshade]

I will not agree to a Vecna lynch today. The possibility of him being scum isn't completely closed to me, but I still think he's most likely town.

Netherlands

You should have a Dutch scummeet, by which I mean you should hang out with McMenno.

The one person we should lynch on principle though is Ceasar.

VOTE: Ceasar

We're not lynching anyone on principle in potential MYLO. We need a scumflip now more than ever.

I changed my mind slightly. I just don't think a townLeon would have been that hard to lynch.

I went to L-1, and while the people you're claiming are my buddies could've hammered me (and made a point not to), davesaz and Maxous had the opportunity to hammer as well. I could've been lynched at any point.

Narrative = events that happened so far.

I think its Nancy, RC, Ali and Leon. Like I have a hard time seeing a town Leon being so hard to lynch/spawned a shit ton of counterwagons. I know you'll argue that you town read him so you "stopped" the lynch but I don't think you have that much authority. RC is scum for trying to strongarm a mislynch sans any reasoning and his pushing to be investigated and then claiming great wall was scummy. Nancy is scummy for a multitude of reasons but that "RC is bussing Nero so lets lynch Nero" that her and Ali are pushing is scummy as F. The fact that RC doesn't even give a shit that they are scumreading him says alot.

oh, did I mention that Nancy, Ali and Leon have been on a bunch of mislynches?

As have most everyone else. As are multiple town players in every mafia game ever. How is this relevant?

The idea that we should sheep you because you've avoided being on most mislynch wagons is ridiculous. Easier for scum to do that (a point Math already made).

If you are town: who do you see as scum, assuming I'm town? If I flipped town, would any of your other reads change?

[Leonshade]

DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY OBJECTIONS TO THIS PLAN?[/size][/b]

Yes. Stop rolefishing.

Rolefishing ceases to be relevant when

A) We could lose the game today
B) Almost everyone has claimed

Why did you claim, if you object to rolefishing at this point?

[Leonshade]

Pretty sure scum would want to keep their options open too so I doubt they took Palace just to frame Pine.

The Forbidden Palace also has a scum utility (blocking Wonder building). That plus avoiding an IC would be a pretty good reason to take it.

Otherwise I think you're pretty on-point with your Wonder ideas. So scum has one, at most two slots open.

Davesaz, are you waiting for instructions in the scumchat or something?

Cmon man, out those targets already.

I'm waiting to see what my targets say, in particular if they guess they were targets. I think there are now 8 pages I haven't read, and it's dinner time.

You had me in your scumreads and my lynch didn't go through, did you go with me/Cloud? Alternatively me/Gork?

[Leonshade]

- Leon who 180d on me when he tried to buddy me by saying that i was in a better position in his reads, then started scumreading me hard when i didnt reciprocate his pockething attempt, his non explanining of his 180 is the scumtell and that its heavily inconsistent

You went from scum to null, back to scum. I was willing to reconsider your slot because my scumread wasn't that strong, but at this point I have too many townreads and no real reason to townread you.

Like the only people I'm not TRing are you, Leon, Nero, LUV

What was with the "RC is powerbussing" thing if you TR him, just a joke or did you change your mind? Why are you TRing Gorkington?

[Leonshade]

Oh yeah add RC to the scumpile.

Nevermind on the last question.

Interesting that Maxous flipped with the Wonder info. Either scum doesn't have the Janitor wonder, or they didn't want to use that player for the kill for some reason.

Though honestly, scum might have just gone "fuck it" to the Janitor wonder, it's a pretty middling ability in this game.

1)

Feels fake. "I couldn't possibly be scum because I have no idea why Maxous would flip with wonder info"

I regret doubting myself because of your AtE yesterday.

Vecna or maybe they were doctor hunting?
He was hanging low for the majority of yesterday.

That was also my thought, it's the Occam's razor explanation (since essentially making Creature conftown would be a pretty bad play otherwise).

2)

If this was your thought, why didn't you voice it instead of piggybacking off of Ali? This smells of buddying.

1) Why do you think a townie wouldn't write the same thing?

2) Day had just started at that point. I didn't see the flip and immediately have the idea, I thought about it while discussing other things. Ali expressed the idea when the conversation turned to the motivation behind the kill, so I voiced my agreement.

It's a factional ability.
pedit: Creats is conftown.

No he's not.

Creature is town by play, and only scum if davesaz (or you) are scum with him.

This is a MASSIVE walk back from his previous read of Creature.

I've townread him since Day One, what's the walk back?

[Leonshade]

In this situation, scum decided to kill Maxous. Maxous was a bold kill due to the result with Creature. So why was he chosen, if scum was trying to PR hunt, over CloudKicker, Gorkington, Senpai and nancy? nancy's been pretty loud all game, so she's a safe choice to not be doctor. Meanwhile CK, Gorkington and Senpai's slots have been much more laid back all game, and would all be good candidates for a doc hunt kill.

Conclusion: there's scum in {CK, Gork, Senpai}. I was scumreading CK anyway, but it wouldn't surprise me for there to be at least two scum here. With two/three scum in CK/Gork/Senpai, Maxous being a doc would be a pretty obvious conclusion for scum to draw.

Maxous asked to be trusted on Pine, said he thought it was a doc protect, TR me, lurked a lot.

Like, he even said Maxous was a decent doc candidate then goes and makes this post. It's gross.

I didn't read Maxous's ISO before making that post, I was going purely off of claims. Maxous was a decent doc candidate, but not the only one. If his ISO makes it that obvious that he's the doc, my point is moot, but there's no reason to assume I'm scum because of it.

The idea that Maxous was a manipulative kill is really hard for me to believe. Even if Creature is somehow scum with davesaz or Vecna, killing Maxous for the sake of read manipulation or confusion wouldn't be worth it. If Creature + one other is scum, it's better to keep Maxous alive to either keep suspicion off the scum, or keep suspicion on Maxous.

So Maxous being killed as a result of doc hunting makes sense, and I think scum had a really good grasp on who the doc was due to the claims plus scum member PoE.

^ good post, allthough you couldve made it as scum as well. but keep em coming and I might start showing you some more love again.

Theres something more going on though........But I probably really shouldnt speculate on that.

I think I got what you meant there btw Alisae - with you not wanting to discuss it.

Really not a good post. It was obvious who Parthenon was yesterday if you bothered to read the game at all.

If it was that obvious, I didn't know it. I think I know who you're talking about now, but I didn't know beforehand.

Great Wall was the only ascetic Wonder IIRC, so roleblocker it is.

I also feel like a town!Leon would have recognized the fakeclaim there for what it was. RC does that shit all the time to try to avoid being nightkilled.

Caveat being if he hasn't really played with RC it's NAI, it's just a really quick conclusion to jump to here I think, just assuming that RC didn't lie about being basically 1s bp as a player with an ego and a history of being nightkilled? Hell, as a player who said multiple times last day phase he was dead that night, even.

I have one finished game with RC, Spyro the Dragon. I did have the thought that RC might be fakeclaiming to avoid being NK'd, but he hadn't come clean by that point in D5 so I worked under the assumption he was telling the truth.

I know you were scumreading me before, but most of your points look like confbias. You're assuming that I'm trying to set up a mislynch instead of gamesolving, and you're assuming that I noticed the same things you did (Maxous being obvdoc, the identity of Parthenon) when I didn't. Assume that I'm town who didn't notice those things, does it look improbable that I would come to my conclusions? Both Vecna and CK generally agreed with my reasoning and nobody called me out on the same faults you did, so it's clear that the things obvious to you weren't obvious to many others.

[Leonshade]

RC seems to have the best grasp of the gamestate out of anyone. He's correctly townreading me, considered it likely that KidAmn would flip town and largely sees the same things I do when it comes to townreads.

This is also the one reason I'm paranoid about his slot. He could be abusing his informed position to tell the truth about things A, B and C to get a mislynch at D.

But outside the paranoia, I'm townreading him. And at this point it's really hard for me to imagine a scumteam that includes RC, but includes neither Nero nor CK. So even in the situation that RC is scum, I think he's doing what Ali claims and bussing his buddy on replacement. And if RC is town, I think he just has really good reads and I'm willing to trust him here. Nero and CK are the lynches I'm willing to go for today.

VOTE: Nero

[Leonshade]

so the entire scum team has to be in Nero, Gorkington, LUV, Vecna, CK, and nancy

This is pretty close to where my PoE is. I would take out nancy and maybe substitute Caesar.

Calling either Vecna or LUV scum doesn't feel right, but my other TRs are even stronger at this point. Caesar's Forbidden Palace build claim and fail seems like a bad scum gambit, but if scum wanted to swipe the wonder away from town, having Caesar claim that would've been a good way to dissuade town from trying to build the Wonder.

Gork I feel fine calling scum, largely due to Gin's play. Gork's townier posts are still fakeable, unlike the play of many of my other townreads.

[Leonshade]

But outside the paranoia, I'm townreading him. And at this point it's really hard for me to imagine a scumteam that includes RC, but includes neither Nero nor CK. So even in the situation that RC is scum, I think he's doing what Ali claims and bussing his buddy on replacement. And if RC is town, I think he just has really good reads and I'm willing to trust him here. Nero and CK are the lynches I'm willing to go for today.

RC reads have been junk.

His proposed scum team was all town.

It had no thought to it as he was pushing me me/Dave team that was totally ignoring the fact that Dave was hard pushed by me the the day before. He was looking for lynchables not scum. I know none of this will phase you since you are scum but yea...

How are you so certain of this? Though I do feel the same about your suggested scumteam, it's me and my townreads.

so the entire scum team has to be in Nero, Gorkington, LUV,

Vecna

, CK, and

nancy

these are the only 2 decent reads. btw.

Why are you townreading Gork? Why are you so confident in that read that the alternative is not even "decent" in your eyes?

while the people you're claiming are my buddies could've hammered me

If they are your buddies they won't necessarily hammer you.

As have most everyone else. As are multiple town players in every mafia game ever. How is this relevant?

I don't really feel like "town are going to be on the mislynches too so totally ignore me, Nancy and Ali being on 3 of them!" is any sort of valid defense.

If you are town my reads would change, just like your reads didn't change when Kid flipped town.

Re: hammer; If they're my buddies they wouldn't necessarily hammer me, but Maxous (conftown) and davesaz (probtown) had the opportunity to. So I was at risk of being lynched the entire time. Your scumteam theory requires there being zero-to-one scum on my wagon with almost the entire scumteam being on the KidAmn counterwagon at one point, it's pretty ridiculous.

The three of us being on a bunch of mislynches shouldn't change your read, since town do it as well, so how do you call that behavior scummy when town do it just as often? And if it doesn't change your read, why bring it up?

I did spend time thinking about my reads after KidAmn's flip. I came to the conclusion that I have to eliminate some of my townreads.

[Leonshade]

DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY OBJECTIONS TO THIS PLAN?[/size][/b]

Yes. Stop rolefishing.

Rolefishing ceases to be relevant when

A) We could lose the game today
B) Almost everyone has claimed

Why did you claim, if you object to rolefishing at this point?

If you were Town, I think you'd have a pretty good idea.

I am town. There's no situation here where I'd know more as town than scum.

Going "ROLEFISHING" at that is just adhering to blind, textbook stuff instead of taking context into account. Scum already know everything I've talked about and more, the only reason for me to "rolefish" here as scum would be to emulate my town play.

[Leonshade]

Math, you and Ceasar are the only ones scum reading me which should tell you something. That something is that you're very very wrong on my slot. I'm town, so rethink your town reads. Who's your weakest town read?

Why do you think those are the only two people scumreading you? Especially considering Math is probably town, why would scum avoid having you in their scumpool? Do you think you're obvtown this game?

[Leonshade]

I'm just going to wait for Dave's result. I think he's the only hope town have left.

He already claimed that he doesn't have a result. Only thing he hasn't claimed is who he targeted.

[Leonshade]

Math, why do you think that Drixx's replace out is town, but Spiffeh's isn't? Why did Spiffeh replace out if scum?