Night and Day Mafia (Game Over)

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

26th!

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Heey
Looking forward to playing with you Kelvin!

-Keyen

Then prepare to be sorely disappointed, my friend.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

People use anything other than silver?

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I have no intentions of signing my posts. The other heads of the hydra might do so and make this pointless, but yeah.

We are bran name goods, so we have to stick to that. It wouldn't be cool if we broke contract.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

To what degree did that annoy you?

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

To what degree did that annoy you?

Not annoyed. Just keeping an eye on you. I'm wondering if the posts here and in the other thread might point to overconfident scum, but I'm not going to know for sure until the game gets going and I get a clearer view of your motivations.

They're just puns, dude.

So was the question. "degree" "kelvin"

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

VOTE: Aronis

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

@Mastina:

Would it be possible for you to keep track of claims? That's something that is usually very annoying to track in most games.

<<< Answered in 163. >>>

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

@Mastina:

Would it be possible for you to keep track of claims? That's something that is usually very annoying to track in most games.

(I should probably have added in a disclaimer of "within reason".)

<<< Sorry, that's beyond what I should be tracking. >>>

Yeah, I figured you'd say that, but a man can dream. They're just such a pain in the ass to constantly track.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

And what would that policy be?

excessive alt slipping

Three posts before he was warned not to do so is excessive? That's a stretch.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Egopost

Ego post!

I guess this is one way to sign your posts.

ThinkBig

Branson, aren't you supposed to be a hydra?

I'm policy lynching the next person who doesn't post in their hydra

Hi, texcat.

Are you scum?

-Branson

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Vote 79 CE

Aronis is a horrible vote. He's obv. town.

Can you go into this for me? I'm not seeing anything from Aronis' play that indicates town at all.

-Branson

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

You don't interact with the lurker on your wagon who is opportunistic as fuck (Rautherdir),

Did you see my vote?

Yes. You voted Aronis. I am not sure what you are getting at?

I mean, a name drop would have been nice

You're talking about Rauth or something and I dropped an L-3 naked vote first post of the game and then left lmfao

Some boat here. Neither we nor Gin explained our votes. So what makes Rautherdir's vote any more suspect than either of ours, Titus?

What's this whole 79 CE thing about? Just because of those couple posts in the Dark chat?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

VOTE: Bulb

Explicitly OMGUS

(If you're looking for a scumtell you can use that Gin)

I really don't like this.

Unvote, Vote: 79 CE

Bulbazak's posting has been pretty townish so far. I may dislike the style, but that's not relevant to the alignment of the player.

Also, since my fellow hydra partners decided to sign their posts, it should be obvious who I am. I still don't intend to sign my posts because I'll forget and it's a hassle.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

The more people post "you should just

know

that I'm town" the more I dislike the playerslot.

This kind of rhetoric is silly. If you really expect people to have a confident town read of you less than thirteen pages into a game (if we remove mastina's posts, this thread is probably only at 10, moderator influencing game thread length, tyranny), you are you silly.

While I do believe that confident posting is good, the high level of "I'm right and you should just

get it

" is irritating and needs to stop. If you want to convince me of something, you're going to have to actually provide reasons rather than try to berate me into thinking you're right because the sky is blue, you had a banana for breakfast, and your dog didn't shit on the floor today. Your good mood or overwhelming magical self-confidence and competence is not a reason that I will accept.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I wasn't awake enough when I was around to talk much, but I'd like to clarify the wagon on aronis:

It is because he "scumslipped" by posting in red in the dark neighborhood, yes?

Because it'd be the last color he'd seen.

This doesn't really work given that the mod has explicitly stated that all of the scum have been given safeclaims.

The mafia, however, have received full safeclaims which hold the exact format of actual town role PMs.

If you want to read it yourself and are too lazy to click back to page one, here you go.

Without knowing the exact format of the role pms, there's literally no way for us to know what the "last color" aronis would've seen is. This whole tell was ridiculous to begin with, but even moreso given the above information that

everybody who read the damn rules would know

. Fuck's sake.

If I were to extend this logic further, I could say some bullshit about this meaning vedith knows the makeup of the role pms to know what the last color would be, but that's nonsense. Just like the wagon on aronis, if it is meant to be a to-lynch wagon, is nonsense. I appreciate the value of it as a pressure wagon, but can we move on to wagons with actual merit now?

79 CE's playerslot is actually scummy.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

It's not hostility. I'm not feeling hostile toward the wagon. I am feeling hostile toward any personality that angles towards "I'm right and me saying that I'm right should mean you believe me" - the only person who hasn't done that to an annoying amount that is pushing a wagon is bulbazak. He's being voted by someone who's blatantly voting him for the sake of doing the "hahaha, but I'm going to vote you! The tables have turned!" - nancy's posting so far feels like scum caught for the wrong reasons.

As for the vote on the Aronis wagon, I disagreed with it but let Kelvin make the executive decision because we didn't have anyone that I felt was more vote-worthy. He said it'd be good to get some pressure out of the wagon and our vote, so the vote went on, pressure stuff and reactions happened, blah, blah.

Now I do.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Well now I feel better about my vote.

Posting to express that I am in support of Dram's vote although I think that my current one is better.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

He's voting Ruath. I don't always feel the need to explicitly mention people because there is a vote count on the same page. The reason I feel better about it is due to Rauth's posting in the dark thread as of the last... thirty ish minutes I think? I don't keep good track of time. Basically, he just focused on your / dram's votes on him and didn't talk about anything else (and calls dram's vote sheeping of you). And for some reason refuses to post in this thread at this time.

I didn't take potshots at everyone voting it. Nor did I try to devolve the game into insults. When I say "the only person who hasn't done that an annoying amount" the more correct thing to say would be "the only person that's attempted to take a leadership role and hasn't done that an annoying amount" (meaning vedith, bulbazak, to a lesser extent you).

Saying that I refuse to follow people who's reasoning for why I should follow them is "because I said so" isn't an attempt to devolve the game into cockstrutting. It's saying that cockstrutting isn't going to convince me.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I also disagree that a wagon with half the votes is much of a "counter" wagon, but that's semantics and not worth arguing. If rauth's posting had been done before I woke up and checked this thread, I'd have probably voted him. As it is, I'm keeping my vote on Nancetophanes until the difference in my read between the two playerslots isn't so minimal. Both are scummy to me, I'd agree with voting either one.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

By ari do you mean aronis or the aristophones / nancy hydra

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

By ari do you mean aronis or the aristophones / nancy hydra

Ari is Ari, Aronis is Aronis

Vedith's post above points out why I'd want to ask for this clarification.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

While I appreciate the vote of confidence, that's not actually a good reason to townread me.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I'd like to request that Vedith and Ginngie not take up an entire page for themselves arguing the same point back and forth.

I'd also like to state that, in this instance, Ginngie is not correct.

Titus expressed suspicion of Rauth's vote (and at the time did not believe it was bussing, due to a lack of read on Aronis).

Titus later felt that Aronis was also scummy due to later events.

Titus explains how both could be true (when asked by bulbazak) by saying that Rauth's vote, which was suspicious, could also be an attempt at bussing.

The flow of logic here is not suspicious or self-contradictory.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I am not arguing about whether Titus' suspicion of Aronis is well-founded. I don't think it is.

However, taking Titus' expressed suspicions at face value, there is no contradiction in the chain of events.

Bulbazak's main point of contention is feeling that Titus' reasoning for voting Aronis is weak and suspect.

I do not disagree, but 79 CE is still more suspicious / scummier / youradjectivehere.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Without content posting to look at from Aelita, thnkbig, btd6, fourtrouble, snarky snowman, rautherdir (he's starting to post a little now) and even 79 CE (what does exist is scummy to me, but there's not much to go off of), all I'm seeing is a circle of the same people posting and saying basically the same things to each other.

I'd rather not clog up the thread with useless noise via repetition, and I can't magically force the people who haven't contributed to contribute, so yeah. My other two heads are currently having a hard time contributing as they're busy / feel similarly to me, which is why I'm expressing this openly here.

If you've got something specific you want to ask us that wouldn't be rehashing the same thing over again, feel free to direct that to us. Otherwise, I, at least, am waiting.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Without content posting to look at from Aelita, thnkbig, btd6, fourtrouble, snarky snowman, rautherdir (he's starting to post a little now) and even 79 CE (what does exist is scummy to me, but there's not much to go off of), all I'm seeing is a circle of the same people posting and saying basically the same things to each other.

I'd rather not clog up the thread with useless noise via repetition, and I can't magically force the people who haven't contributed to contribute, so yeah. My other two heads are currently having a hard time contributing as they're busy / feel similarly to me, which is why I'm expressing this openly here.

If you've got something specific you want to ask us that wouldn't be rehashing the same thing over again, feel free to direct that to us. Otherwise, I, at least, am waiting.

What's your favorite color?
What's your favorite movie?
What's your favorite type of hat?
Don't think we've discussed any of that before, so plz answer me asap. Thanks

Favorite color is blue
Favorite movie from childhood is Master Of Disguise or MIB. Favorite movie since becoming an adult is Guardians of the Galaxy or Priest (old movie but I really liked it). I may just be listing two different movies with similar themes to their childhood predecessors.
Tophat. It's the top choice. This pun hat to be done.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I'm having a hard time differentiating my internal hatred of someone literally posting a page and a half worth by themselves without any other people being involved and my scumread on the nancy slot, so I'm going to need some time before I comment on that stuff.

Among other things, I wish the mod hadn't delayed in prodding the rest of the playerlist because I really need their input for me to work some things out, including but not limited to my reads on them. I can respect the decision but aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Kelvin got out of a game where I was SK.

Like he literally sees me do this in every game I am in regardless of alignment and he calls you scummy for it.

That might not be Kelvin though, he didn't sign the post.

I think it is Kelvin based on that hunger games game.

If it isn't I will reassess but either way I

think

i did the same thing this game too.

I just don't like that post.

Pedit okay <3

Wasn't me. I sign my posts. It was Ray. Also, I'm not sure I've ever actually seen you as town. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

For the record, I am saying that I am aware spam posting isn't scummy but that it's annoying and I am taking time to mentally separate my irritation with the playerslot and my read of it.

And yes, this is Ray. No, I'm not going to start signing.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

My post was in response to mathblade, who seemed to think that is what I was saying.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

As I believe I've already said, I want other people to post in the thread that haven't already so that I can start to form some more reads from that.

If you've got nothing you want to ask me about, then I'll be going back to watching Critical Role. I've just started, but this stuff is sooooooooo good.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

There's a difference between having reads and having reads on everyone.

There's several playerslots that have contributed nothing or almost nothing to the game. Thinkbig and his slot have provided

actually zero content

to get a read from, for example.

I've got reads on people posting. I don't have reads on people not posting. The people not posting may change or influence my read(s) on people posting when they become people who are posting. Until then, the people who are not posting are people who I do not have reads on but would like to have reads on and so I would like them to change from not posting to posting for that purpose.

This was awkwardly worded on purpose. Because it's amusing.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Hi Kelvin!

What are your reads right now? Do you have any things you'd like to talk about?

Personally, I think that Day 1 is little more than a farce. Honestly, the same could be said abut Mafia, in general, as I've grown increasingly cynical on the entire concept in the last month or so.

I believe I've read every post in this game and so far, my general feelings, to put it nicely, is that it's 90% nonsense.

I'd also been waiting for an ongoing game to end before getting more heavily involved, as it played a big part on my current read on Titus, but it's over now, so I can talk about it freely when I have time.

I'll be trying to post something of substance in the next couple days, if I've got the time (Summer classes are starting in the morning), but since Day 1 is little more than a sham of posturing and shooting into the dark, I doubt there will be much I can add.

I guess I find it a little weird that you don't think 34 pages is enough get reads, but alright. See you later.

Honestly, I think it's more weird how many people seem to have ridiculously strong reads after only 34 pages (or less).

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

@Kelvin, how is having strong reads weird?

Because it's fucking 30 pages into Day 1 and many of these "strong" reads I'm seeing seem to have formulated within the first 10 pages. I'm sorry, but it's almost certain that most strong reads people have are due to pure, unchecked confirmation bias. The entire institution of Mafia is practically built on a foundation of confirmation bias, which is why I've come to hate the game.The only reasons I continue playing are because I've got some perverse addiction to the game and because I'm desperately clinging to the idea that there must surely be some way for Mafia to be anything more than a months-long dice roll to see who wins.

I'm really not trying to insult everyone playing, but none of you make any goddamn sense to me. You might dress it up a little differently, but the arguments I see from everyone are not much better than the Vedith's "Aronis used Red" argument. The other heads don't feel this way (or, at least, not as extremely), but I do. And since I'd rather not be a toxic presence in this game, I've kept posts to a minimum, rather than go on various tirades, because once I start, I have a really hard time stopping. And that's not productive for anybody. Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to get off to class.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Wagons ebb throughout the day. Anyone wanting to end the day on the first wagon (Titus especially) gets an FoS.

First wagon isn't always the lynch and that is okay.

Then you might as well FoS me, because I don't honestly give too many fucks about Day 1 ending on the first wagon. Let the chips fall where they may.

Warning: My stance on Day 1 may not be representative of the other heads of this Hydra.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I dislike sharing a vote with the texcat slot as it's starting to feel iffy and the 79 CE hydra's starting to feel more town.

Unvote

Currently am not entirely sure of who I think is scummy enough

to

vote. For the sake of pointing out which of the two wagons I feel is more likely to be scum, I'll

Vote: Texcat

but do note this is a placeholder until I can get a better feel for the players in this game.

I've got some contradicting feelings about certain changes in reads and the like. Am currently wanting more from QuantumRadius, but more was promised, so etc.

Bulbazak: Are you still standing by your Titus vote?

Aronis, for help with your pagetop obsession: realize that, like every other meaningless thing we do in our speck of existence in the great scheme of things, getting a pagetop will do nothing to stop our freefall down the chasm of death and decay that we are merely born at the top of before being pushed off. And so it doesn't matter if you get a pagetop. This, along with all other impermanent actions, will be washed away in the sands of time.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

If you want something less grim, stop wasting your time typing random nonsense into a game thread that's already filled with worthless noise and make life easier for old fashioned players such as myself. Go play a video game or watch a youtube channel's videos. If you're needing some suggestions, feel free to seek me out and I'm sure I can offer you something you haven't watched before.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Hey, guys. My first long week of Summer class is over, so I've got time to dedicate this game. I've fallen behind since my last post, and I'll go through and poke around a bit, but let's talk in the meantime. Anything you guys want to talk about?

By the way, don't bother asking me for my reads or to make a case for a lynch. As I've been contemplating this game, I came to the realization that my reads are shit, they have always been shit, and they will always be shit. Just look at my least few town games or ask any of the people I've either played with or who has modded for me in one (MathBlade, ThinkBig, Titus, and RayFrost). Hell, even my scum reads are typically shit, since I typically use the same garbage criteria to initiate my reads (for references, ask both heads of 79CE, Alisae, Ginngie, Titus, and possibly MathBlade).

I believe that my biggest possible contribution is as a sounding board. You wanna bounce ideas off me? Go for it. You wanna discuss the merits of your reads? Let's do it. I'll go around asking questions and trying to help everyone make sense of the game. I'll also place my vote where my gut tells me it should be (unless the other heads want it elsewhere). But for the most part, I'm done taking anything resembling a firm stance on other players' alignments.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

<<< ThinkBig has been prodded. He has until this time to post: (expired on 2017-06-25 19:23:28). >>>

Please

guys

for real

It's not that hard

to see

Don't make me spell it out.

I'm too tired right now to whip votes hardcore, just like, do it

For the new page so you don't miss it

What are you on about?

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I don't know ThinkBig well enough to determine whether that's alignment indicative. I can speak from my own experience though. I've been in multiple games at once and only post in games that I'm up to date in or enjoy, while falling further behind in games that I am already behind in or don't enjoy.

In terms of the former, it's easier for me to make quick posts in games that I'm are already caught up on, while it can be almost impossible to make meaningful posts in a game that I am far behind on. And being behind is inherently demotivating, so I push myself to keep up with the game I'm caught up on so that I'm not behind on multiple games. Then, once life allows a massive stretch of time, I try to catch up on the one I'm far behind on in a single go.

As far as not enjoying a game goes, it's easier to post in a game that is fun, pleasant, and easy to read. But in games where that's not the case, it's more of a chore and I'm more inclined to put it off. I know that in nancy's game, I legitimately had a hard time reading it and understanding what was going on. It's true that I was scum, but I couldn't get active in the game because I just didn't like the pace, tone, or feel of it at all and that made it an ordeal to ever keep up. And the more I fell behind, the more I became demotivated to even take part in the game.

As I said, I don't know ThinkBig well enough to know if he thinks that way, but I know myself well enough to know that I think that way and that it's not indicative of alignment, so it's conceivable to me that he could be of a similar mindset. What reason do you have to believe that isn't the case? I'm not asking you to pull together a big case or mountains of data, I just want to know why you think it must be because he's scum and consider alternative reasons for his behavior,

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I'll probably post more later, but plz guys listen to Ginngie she is very very very right. Think big needs to die

Because...?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

FYI, Gin, I've seen Titus lynched Day 1 as a claimed Doctor, so she's totally lynchable. That said, what I've seem of her in all the games we've played together makes me think there's no good reason to think she's scum, so I don't currently support her lynch. I definitely support the idea of lynching soon though. I hate when Day 1 gets overly long and unwieldy.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

petty?
holy shit i really want to get to a computer and drop fire
i had loads of evidence before the shredder of dreams that is the internet took all of it

and you might not understand my tenacity fully
if i know what i'm doing i can get things done my way
and I 100% know what I'm doing

This is gonna sound harsh, but do it again if you're so sure. Of course, it's probably pointless because you're probably wrong and it's probable nobody is going to listen to you. Personally, I don't get a scum impression from Titus. I've only played with her as scum once and she replaced out pretty early on, but my experience suggests that she's more docile as scum, as well as appearing both less certain and less aggressive. At least, that's my take on her. As I've established though, my reads are fucking trash. Still, I'll stand by my gut on her until I see compelling reason not to.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I'll probably post more later, but plz guys listen to Ginngie she is very very very right. Think big needs to die

Because...?

-Kelvin

i explained this in post #1030 and don't rlly feel like repeating myself
tl;dr: basically when ThinkBig is town he posts a lot. when thinkbig is scum he doesn't post a lot. thinkbig isn't posting a lot this game, so he's scum.

tl;dr: I already posted what I consider to be a valid counterargument to that. Please explain why it's not valid if you want my vote there.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Also, dramonic. Why are you voting with someone you last said was a scum-read.

What's the point of this question? Furthermore, did you ask Titus the same question when she did the same?

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Damn it we are not repeating 1900 or Gistou people. I have seen a shit ton of role claims and would rather everyone keep it in their pants/skirts. Seriously...the point of Mafia isn't mass claim. For the love of God stop claiming shit. I know you're probably all excited that oooooh I has shinies but please stop that. I am getting sick of everyone claiming things.

Like please...if you think you have to claim on day one and are not a miller and not ascetic please check yourself before you wreck yourself.

Did I fucking miss something? I know I'm a few pages behind, but have people been throwing out claims?

-Kelvin (the previous post was also me)

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Damn it we are not repeating 1900 or Gistou people. I have seen a shit ton of role claims and would rather everyone keep it in their pants/skirts. Seriously...the point of Mafia isn't mass claim. For the love of God stop claiming shit. I know you're probably all excited that oooooh I has shinies but please stop that. I am getting sick of everyone claiming things.

Like please...if you think you have to claim on day one and are not a miller and not ascetic please check yourself before you wreck yourself.

*cough* Or Jester *cough*

Also who is claiming?

p-edit: I knew why Titus was doing it. I don't know why dramonic is doing it.

That's fair. But I'd like to know what you hope to gain from the question. Do you think it's going to be alignment-indicative or do you want insight into his thought process?

(I think he posted to the wrong game)

I see.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Deathtunnel, without reasons, fml.

you sure? i seem to have had a whole PbPA of reasons before

petty?
holy shit i really want to get to a computer and drop fire
i had loads of evidence before the shredder of dreams that is the internet took all of it

and you might not understand my tenacity fully
if i know what i'm doing i can get things done my way
and I 100% know what I'm doing

This is gonna sound harsh, but do it again if you're so sure. Of course, it's probably pointless because you're probably wrong and it's probable nobody is going to listen to you. Personally, I don't get a scum impression from Titus. I've only played with her as scum once and she replaced out pretty early on, but my experience suggests that she's more docile as scum, as well as appearing both less certain and less aggressive. At least, that's my take on her. As I've established though, my reads are fucking trash. Still, I'll stand by my gut on her until I see compelling reason not to.

-Kelvin

i want to do it again but i play almost exclusively on mobile, if and when i can get to a computer formatting such a long post will be less of a tedious pain and will be less likely to get lost
i'm feeling really cocky, so maybe nobody will listen to me, but idrc, just something to get me out there. i'm really confident that i got a scum tho
i'm not easily discouraged

Would an abridged version be possible? I'm certainly not trying to discourage you. In fact, I want it, since it will give me a greater window into your head. I'm just telling you I don't have good reason to believe you are right and I arguably have good reason to believe you are wrong.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

here's your response to your ludicrous case frosted kelvin bran

I don't know ThinkBig well enough to determine whether that's alignment indicative. I can speak from my own experience though. I've been in multiple games at once and only post in games that I'm up to date in or enjoy, while falling further behind in games that I am already behind in or don't enjoy.

In terms of the former, it's easier for me to make quick posts in games that I'm are already caught up on, while it can be almost impossible to make meaningful posts in a game that I am far behind on. And being behind is inherently demotivating, so I push myself to keep up with the game I'm caught up on so that I'm not behind on multiple games. Then, once life allows a massive stretch of time, I try to catch up on the one I'm far behind on in a single go.

As far as not enjoying a game goes, it's easier to post in a game that is fun, pleasant, and easy to read. But in games where that's not the case, it's more of a chore and I'm more inclined to put it off. I know that in nancy's game, I legitimately had a hard time reading it and understanding what was going on. It's true that I was scum, but I couldn't get active in the game because I just didn't like the pace, tone, or feel of it at all and that made it an ordeal to ever keep up. And the more I fell behind, the more I became demotivated to even take part in the game.

As I said, I don't know ThinkBig well enough to know if he thinks that way, but I know myself well enough to know that I think that way and that it's not indicative of alignment, so it's conceivable to me that he could be of a similar mindset. What reason do you have to believe that isn't the case? I'm not asking you to pull together a big case or mountains of data, I just want to know why you think it must be because he's scum and consider alternative reasons for his behavior,

-Kelvin

Okay here's a big problem, you're assuming that ThinkBig and you are like identical people when that's not the case at all. How much you post and how much thinkbig posts can and do depend on different things here. ThinkBig doesn't post when he's scum.

Basically your counter-argument boils down to: how active I am doesn't depend on my alignment so how active everyone else is can't depend on their alignment and that's an incredibly flawed assumption that is completely incorrect.

No, my argument is "how active I am doesn't depend on my alignment, so how active everyone else is conceivably doesn't depend on their alignment." I have no illusion that ThinkBig and I are even remotely the same person, though in the past I have been known to make the assumption that I can understand certain players that are similar to me. Rather, I am making a broader generalization about human nature and suggesting that there'd been no reason presented to me that it couldn't be applicable here. Telling me I'm wrong isn't magically going to make your case better.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Because that is fake as fuck and by far the worst response to what Math posted.

What was and why was it?

-Kelvin (last post was also me)

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

okay kelvin goes into the a. stupid or b. scum pile w/ vedith and whoever else I put in there

c. Your case is weak and you are being unreasonable.

P.S. I really don't like it when people insinuate (or outright state) that I'm stupid, particularly when I am voicing legitimate concerns. So kindly don't do that.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

define extremely complex

about a half hour in I lost all my progress

I'm not trying to diminish your work or anything and I don't know what your free time generally looks like, but a half hour is fucking nothing from my perspective. But when I was a super wall-y poster, I would usually spend a minimum of an hour per post. I once spend 24 hours on a single post over the course of 2 days, so forgive me if I'm not sympathetic. I realize mobile is annoying, but please do it again and do it well. Otherwise, I'm probably going to think that you're just making excuses when I don't buy your case. It's like when you tell a teacher the dog ate your homework. In fact, I'm going to go so far as to say that the only way I'm letting you off the hook now is if you present a spectacular and well thought-out case.

UNVOTE: texcat
VOTE: QuantumRadius

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Damn it we are not repeating 1900 or Gistou people. I have seen a shit ton of role claims and would rather everyone keep it in their pants/skirts. Seriously...the point of Mafia isn't mass claim. For the love of God stop claiming shit. I know you're probably all excited that oooooh I has shinies but please stop that. I am getting sick of everyone claiming things.

Like please...if you think you have to claim on day one and are not a miller and not ascetic please check yourself before you wreck yourself.

*cough* Or Jester *cough*

Also who is claiming?

p-edit: I knew why Titus was doing it. I don't know why dramonic is doing it.

Not helping scum out.

I know of at least 4. Stop it.

>Not Helping scum out.
>I know of at least 4.

Choose one. Also, pointing it out in the first place seems pretty counterintuitive. And I've seen town players fake-cclaimm/crumb to draw scum onto them. And I was once in a game as scum where my partner thought he fond a Cop crumb. It certainly seemed like one, but it actually wasn't meant as one.

-Kelvin (last one was me... again)

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

okay kelvin goes into the a. stupid or b. scum pile w/ vedith and whoever else I put in there

c. Your case is weak and you are being unreasonable.

P.S. I really don't like it when people insinuate (or outright state) that I'm stupid, particularly when I am voicing legitimate concerns. So kindly don't do that.

-Kelvin

srry i'll be nicer from now on

Thank you. I certainly don't mind if you don't agree with my reasoning or scumread me for disagreeing with you (though that's it's own logical fallacy), as long as we can be civil about it.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Damn it we are not repeating 1900 or Gistou people. I have seen a shit ton of role claims and would rather everyone keep it in their pants/skirts. Seriously...the point of Mafia isn't mass claim. For the love of God stop claiming shit. I know you're probably all excited that oooooh I has shinies but please stop that. I am getting sick of everyone claiming things.

Like please...if you think you have to claim on day one and are not a miller and not ascetic please check yourself before you wreck yourself.

*cough* Or Jester *cough*

Also who is claiming?

p-edit: I knew why Titus was doing it. I don't know why dramonic is doing it.

Not helping scum out.

I know of at least 4. Stop it.

>Not Helping scum out.
>I know of at least 4.

Choose one. Also, pointing it out in the first place seems pretty counterintuitive. And I've seen town players fake-cclaimm/crumb to draw scum onto them. And I was once in a game as scum where my partner thought he fond a Cop crumb. It certainly seemed like one, but it actually wasn't meant as one.

-Kelvin (last one was me... again)

STOP TALKING ABOUT IT. Mathblade probably shouldn't have brought it up in the first place (except maybe in the guise of a general tip), but talking about it more is not going to help matters. Next person who brings this up gets my vote.

Then vote me. I can't count the times people have told me not to talk about PR stuff. I've never stopped before and I'm certainly not going to stop now. In fact, my motive was to mitigate the damage done by pointing out that what MathBlade saw may not be indicative of any particular PR. My statement has the potential to get scum to second-guess any breadcrumbing that PRs may or may not have done, protecting potentially crucial roles, or at least possibly giving scum pause as they move forward.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Damn it we are not repeating 1900 or Gistou people. I have seen a shit ton of role claims and would rather everyone keep it in their pants/skirts. Seriously...the point of Mafia isn't mass claim. For the love of God stop claiming shit. I know you're probably all excited that oooooh I has shinies but please stop that. I am getting sick of everyone claiming things.

Like please...if you think you have to claim on day one and are not a miller and not ascetic please check yourself before you wreck yourself.

*cough* Or Jester *cough*

Also who is claiming?

p-edit: I knew why Titus was doing it. I don't know why dramonic is doing it.

Not helping scum out.

I know of at least 4. Stop it.

>Not Helping scum out.
>I know of at least 4.

Choose one. Also, pointing it out in the first place seems pretty counterintuitive. And I've seen town players fake-cclaimm/crumb to draw scum onto them. And I was once in a game as scum where my partner thought he fond a Cop crumb. It certainly seemed like one, but it actually wasn't meant as one.

-Kelvin (last one was me... again)

ooh, i was in a game once where the tracker fakecrumbed watcher to throw the scum (me) off and it ended up with me getting guilt-ied.

#rebel

This was even worse. He didn't fakecrumb, it was entirely accidental. The crumb my partner found was in the player's first post:

"fuck, 15 minutes ago? now i won't be able to make the

c

heeky

o

pening

p

ost"

The guy we thought was the Cop ended up being Jailkeeper, but he admitted postgame that it was entirely coincidental and he hadn't meant to crumb anything.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

heck I'm still not sure if anyone even read MY post lol
hey fkb hydra, was it good enough for an unvote?

I'll let you know when I actually have time to read it. Got homework due in 4 hours.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Regarding ThinkBig's activity, have any of you actually looked at the content of the posts that he's been making? I asked mastina how much I can say regarding ongoing games and she preferred I stay vague, but if you actually look at ThinkBig's posts and you look at his signature, it becomes pretty clear that the argument regarding his lack of activity is weak at best, scummy at worst.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Are you using my words to say why texcat needs to be lynched?

Want a small bit of clarity :3

No I was saying I reject your idea of fences and I want Texcat lynched.

Why I want him lynched is in the post I quoted.

Why you want her lynched is not clear. Please explain.

@Quantum: Haven't forgotten about you. Just too lazy to read your long post at this particular moment.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I want Texcat lynched because of that post. Saying more is antitown.

Fuck that noise. Saying that saying more is antitown is antitown. If your fucking reason is clear enough to convince other people to lynch her, then it doesn't matter if you explain it, because everyone can figure it out anyway. If it's not obvious, then pointing it out to begin with can only serve a scum agenda.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Texcat sorry for the misgendering *blush*

Kelvin exactly why I want Texcat lynched yay you said my case!

No, I didn't. I said why your case is bad.

If what texcat said was obvious enough to deserve a lynch, that means that her response to Aelita confirmed that texcat is scum and the reason why it confirms that is obvious. If the reason is obvious, explaining it isn't antitown.

If, on the other hand, what texcat said did not make it clear that she's scum, then all you've done is drawn attention to the exchange. Scum don't have to care if you explain it or not, because you've already drawn their attention to whatever it was and they can decide whether or not it's valuable to them. On the other hand, town have nothing. How can you expect anyone to make an informed decision on whether to lynch texcat if you refuse to explain why we should lynch her?

If you're town, all you'd succeed in doing is pointing scum in the direction of noticing something you allegedly don't want them to notice. Meanwhile, the town are groping around trying to understand your reasoning or sheeping you on a lynch that they might not agree with if they knew the explanation.

If you're scum though, you gain the benefit of looking like you care about some privileged information leaking and you get to push a caseless lynch on texcat that you can explain away if it's a mislynch or take credit for if it's a bus. Win/win for you.

So please explain yourself.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Or you and Texcat don't know and I will just layback and wait. It is okay. I have no plans to leak anything. If you're Town sorry but I am not helping what is obviously a rolefish from Texcat. I will be at dnd most of the night.

Lynch Texcat.

Asking Aelita if she posted in the wrong thread because she made a nonsense post is obvious rolefishing? That's fucking garbage.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Or you and Texcat don't know and I will just layback and wait. It is okay. I have no plans to leak anything. If you're Town sorry but I am not helping what is obviously a rolefish from Texcat. I will be at dnd most of the night.

Lynch Texcat.

Asking Aelita if she posted in the wrong thread because she made a nonsense post is obvious rolefishing? That's fucking garbage.

-Kelvin

... aren't you talking about two different people here? or am i completely blanking out

Not that I am aware of.

Aelita said some cryptic nonsense.

texcat asked Aelita is she had posted in the wrong game (at least, that's how I read the message).

MathBlade said texcat needed to be lynched.

When I pressed MathBlade, they said it was because texcat was allegedly rolefishing by asking that.

I said that it's fucking bullshit to call that rolefishing. texcat asked Aelita a legitimate question.

Hope that clears that up.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Ok yeah I derped when reading that

kinda surprised nobody has even commented on my read. idk if anyone even read it, there's just no feedback on it from anyone. if you did read it, tell me what you think. The lack of response to that is pinging me on some of the actives, but it might just be that it's really long and complex

Take it from a former wallposter: people don't read long posts. It's one of the most frustrating things in the world.

I haven't read it because I haven't felt like spending an hour or more dissecting the post to see if there's any merit to it. Especially not when I could be reading manga. I'll get to it when I feel like. It's not like my vote on you is gonna lead to a lynch or anything. That said, are you satisfied that you were able to capture all of the points you intended to make originally?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

the second attempt was all i wanted to hit in the first one, but more of it and better
plus your hydra is voting texcat so

Nope. Our vote is definitely on you. Good to hear you won't have any excuses though.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Guys plz I would bet my entire great reputation on this site that think big is scum

I actually believe here that TB could be scum too.
Tell me though, why should I vote TB from your point of view?

bc he is obvscum. This is not complicated. When ThinkBig is town he posts a lot and he does not post very much when scum. He's not posting very much this game and is instead lurking and making excuses for not being here which is an obvious scumtell when it comes to him.

I just went back to the signup thread to see which half of the hydra originally was interested in the game. And it was ThinkBig. I also noted that ThinkBig said he would be active, but hates being scum. Just using that for meta, you might think he was scum here. I hope he picks up his prod and explains.

And when you use that + past experiences with him you would be absolutely convinced he is scum. His version of explaining is replacing out of the game because he sucks as scum and so he's just gonna cop out and let somebody else come in and bail him out.

VOTE: texcat

i think I'm just gonna blacklist thinkbig instead of lynching him

All of these posts are bad.

Any argument that someone is lying about depression or events in their life as a cop out of playing a game comes from an assumption that the person who replaced out has no integrity. It's a foul way of viewing someone and going so far as to say you'll blacklist a person based off of a baseless assumption is also foul.

You do not know thinkbig

. You quite clearly are not thinkbig's closest friend and confidante to know his emotional / psychological state. Saying that someone is

lying about their depression

even if you did know them would be an inappropriate, insensitive thing to do.

Saying it when you don't even know the person to be making any kind of judgment calla bout it is worse.

It is highly uncharitable, inherently antagonistic, and completely unacceptable to me. I will not be following any line of reasoning resembling this and will do everything in my power to stop any push based off of this from happening. Though I would like to think the other members of this game are not the types to have such negative, uncharitable mindsets.

I find your confirmation-biased, highly negative viewpoint regarding another player's words about their life situation to be rude and unreasonable.

This is the most charitable way I can express it. Do not reply to me on this, as I'm unwavering in my stance here. I'd wish you a good day, but I'm not in the mood to do so.

With regards to the rest of the game: I've been busy / tired / busy / tired so I am not yet at a place where I can formulate my thoughts (this just caught my eye while I was doing a quick read to catchup). Hopefully, I'll find the time over the next two or three days to make real content. In the meantime, Kelvin's got things under control.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

tbh math that makes me feel like you didn't read it

Alternative Hypothesis: Your case supports Titus being town.

I've only started looking it over, but so far there is nothing even remotely compelling there. I'll try to get back to you on that tonight though. Class starts in a bit and my friend just got here, so I'm gonna talk to him.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Titus is doing things that are objectively scummy.

I'm not sure how you are defining "objectively" or "scummy," but I'm thinking you are using the former incorrectly, and possibly the latter too.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Titus is doing things that are objectively scummy.

I'm not sure how you are defining "objectively" or "scummy," but I'm thinking you are using the former incorrectly, and possibly the latter too.

-Kelvin

yeah I think the word I was looking for was "fundamentally"
but I definitely meant the scummy part

Please tell me what "scummy" means to you.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Titus is doing things that are objectively scummy.

I'm not sure how you are defining "objectively" or "scummy," but I'm thinking you are using the former incorrectly, and possibly the latter too.

-Kelvin

yeah I think the word I was looking for was "fundamentally"
but I definitely meant the scummy part

Please tell me what "scummy" means to you.

suspiciously nontown or anti-town.

What separates suspiciously non-town from regular non-town? Likewise, what separates suspiciously anti-town from regular anti-town?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Well, I'm gonna spend this afternoon playing catchup prepare for many posts. In case I forget to sign any of them, they are all from me, Kelvin, the best one of the three (shameless Futurama reference). I'm gonna do things in order from where I left off after I keep my promise to Quantum.

Spoiler: My Thoughts on the Titus Case

ok, who's ready for this

Whatever, let's do this shit.

titus begins pregame and memephase, but tires quickly, even becoming agitated
after placing his rvs on rauthedir in 151, she immediately tires of rvs and bails in 162
that move is somewhat confusing, and i dislike their cover up in 169 (it's rvs, all rvs wagons are devoid of reason that early, that should not make you bail from rvs)

I fail to see anything even remotely off with this. Some people don't like being told what to do (as Vedith was doing) or wagons that get too big, too fast. I don't know Titus's stance on early wagons, but I've seen her get irked when people start trying to push her around. And I can't remember where, but I know I've seen her just walk away before when someone starts annoying her.

started hunting scum as early as 109
immediately latches onto rauthedir, who seems inactive (182, 214)
i'm confused as to why the interest in a semi-active slot, especially moving forward with her other scumreads

It's called confirmation bias. Titus scumreads at the drop of a hat and will hold onto those reads for the majority of the game. Read her ISOs in Railgun and Girls ♥ Girls 1 and tell me I'm not right.

262
this post is just awful. there is no reason for town to object that highly to mention of a traitor, especially with a setup where traitor wouldn't fit well. also, the latch onto the single word seems opportunistic

Bad =/= Scum
Sure, it's pretty bad thinking, especially given the setup, but that doesn't mean she considered the setup at the time. People like to jump on stupid perceived slips, that's not even uncommon. And it's understandable how a person could think that only scum would have reason to be primed to think about the possibility of a Traitor role.

rauthedir push intensifies in 279
oddly seems to think there's a major difference between what fkb and ginngie were doing, and what rauth was doing
the only real counterpoint she has is rauth's inactivity, which is nai unless there's meta i'm unaware of

Is your implication to contradiction/hypocrisy is scummy? I've heard the argument that scum are actually less likely to be contradictory than town because they feel like they need to have their story straight. Most people are a bundle of contradictions. If you can even call this a contradiction.

285 begins interaction with ginngie
she immediately wants out, pushing away at every available opportunity
i don't feel like this can be svs, assuming mafia has daychat (which is nearly confirmable since the mafia have the factional switching action) i really don't think that would have resolved like it did
interestingly, she thinks that ginngie is in the way, but does not scumread her for obstructing her reads (292)
she states that "you should already know i'm town" in 294, which is just not true

At the risk of offending Titus after Girls ♥ Girls 1, as Tammy pointed out multiple times in that game, Titus can be a very arrogant player. I'm pretty sure I've seen lots of players, both town and scum, who make the ridiculously unfounded claim that people should "just know" that they are town. This cancerous "obvtown/obvscum" bullshit that is the of my existence, but it's NAI.

begins negative interactions with math in 300 via shadecast. this develops later

Is that shadecasting? Like, that seems like a statement about their personal history together. Unless you have some sort of knowledge of their personal history, I'm not sure how it's possible to make heads or tails of this satement.

302 is her scumteam.
imo the aronis wagon was too fast to be scum, i don't think that's a logical sr
math doesn't seem that scummy to me, but i am lacking meta there, and meta is the main case against him
rauth is inactive, not a good reason to scumread someone

I don't think I've ever played a town game with Titus where she didn't lock in a scumteam off of weak reads Day 1. Granted, I've only played two games with her as town where I read her early game.

the end of 322 is almost laughably bad.
"i'm scumreading you for getting off a wagon. for that, i'll vote the person you want to unwagon, instead of you"
there is no visible reasoning there

Isn't there? I don't agree with her reasoning, but she said pretty clearly what her reasoning here was, so this feels like a misrepresentation. She already had a scumread on Aronis prior to that post. Our unvote was suspicious to her and strengthened her conviction on her scumread, as well as making her suspicious of us.

326... what even is this
it's like a hybrid between shadecasting, discrediting and distancing

Is it still shadecasting when you scumread the person? Also, is discrediting your espoused scumreads a bad thing? And distancing from who? Are you implying that we're scum or that Aronis is?

327 is a good post.

What about it is good?

330 is a repeat of the first readset, with the addition of fkb.
all of my commentary for the other three still stands

What's your point?

i'm not really sure what the reasoning on the fkb sr is, might be 326

Or it could be 345. Or it could be 322, where she first expresses the scumread... Take your pick.

the reaction in 345 is bad. it's really desperate finger pointing

Desperate for...?

wise words in 350

Well, at least we agree on this.

353 contains a formal declaration of a mathblade scumread, but somehow takes that and transitions it to town!bulbazak

So she's not allowed to state her other reads or...?

374 isn't much better, now you sr math for a read interruption... while you were being interrupted by ginngie... idk something isn't in sync there
i need some math meta apparently

What? Like, that's not even what she said. 297 makes it clear why she called Math scum and Gin agreed (at the time, at least).

458 yes and no, they would probably first look for what a teammate was trying to do

Both of you feel so narrow-minded to me. Like there's one fucking static thing that scum would do in any given situation. Scum playstyles are just as varied and inconsistent as town play and people are far too confident in their ability to read either.

465 is heavy shade on bulbazak. tvs

Why is asking somebody a question "heavy shade"? Certainly, it's an accusatory question, but so?

468 false, you're not lining up at all. your explanations only made that worse

Did they only make it worse? Like, what about it didn't add up to you? Because it made sense to me.

473 what is that
why is that a thing

Hell if I know.

489, obviously dissatisfied with the pace of the aronis wagon, resorts to casting more shade on aronis

How is what she did there literally any different from what you're doing when responding to that post? You're both ascribing arbitrary intent to other people as a means of attacking them.

564 woah there. flips back to rauth wagon
idk what you have that vote there for if you're not working with anyone to get it lynched

I'll take it you've never read Titus Academy. She talks about working with people and trying to work towards consensus, rather than trying to force things yourself, among other things. Here it seems like she's making the statement that she's so confident in Rauth as scum, she's going to disregard her espoused standards of cooperation and force his lynch.

And even if that wasn't the case, how does that equate to her being scum?

564668 repeats the exact same scumteam. also shows unwillingness to vote anyone else

Quantum! What the fuck is your point? You keep harping on her having the same reads. Are you saying that's scummy? If so, why? Why isn't it indicative of confirmation bias? Why isn't this whole case on Titus not indicative of your own confirmation bias?

564my guess is that she's got 1 buddy in here

Because...? If so, who and why? You're just making unfounded claims.

564857 voices interest in a quick flip
i'm not sure if that's actually kosher on this site because days are so long, but with the inactives she mentioned in 854, ending the day before potential prods or replacements would not have been wise

The false dichotomy of 79 CE or Aronis was crap, but not inherently scum-motivated. And the day ending would have been no great tragedy. I've said it in other games and I'll say it here: Day 1 usually ends in a mislynch. While I'd obviously prefer it didn't, I wouldn't lose sleep if it did. Day 1 is a fucking farce anyway. If it ended early, nothing of significant value would be lost.

564my main question after this is why she's choosing to shadecast mathblade over pushing him. she has evidence on that wagon, apparently solid meta
why is she not doing anything about it, over the sporadically active rauthedir?

You mean other than because in recent posts, she's said she now thinks Math might be town? I mean, who can say, other than her? Why does anybody do any of the nonsense that they do in Mafia? Because human beings are complex, unpredictable, contradictory creatures.

564also, why the closed scumteam?

Because confirmation bias.

God, what a fucking ordeal that was. Don't expect any more walls out of me. If you respond to this, I'll probably do it in chunks or something. Part of the reason I was going to quit this fucking game was so that I wouldn't have to make multi-hour posts anymore.

P.S. inb4WhiteKnightAccusations
-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Apologies for the Hydra slip. Won't happen again.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

This is a weird concern, but it concerns me that you're not pressing me at all, there are so many questions or sorting that can be done that's just tossed aside.

you're asking to be read
that self-consciousness pings me scummy

Can confirm Gin has done this as town before.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

holy shit kelvin
you disagreed with literally the whole post

i should go through and review that but I really don't feel like it
any questions you need me to respond to?

Yeah, that's not really surprising to me. I told you already, nothing I've seen out of Titus so far indicates scum to me in any way. That's not to say she's not scum (though I don't think she is), just that the things you are talking about aren't scum-indicative.

Well, I took the time to go through your whole post, so I'd certainly appreciate if yyou took the time to go through mine. Unless you just want to disregard and carry on pushing her for shit reasons. Bad case or not though, it certainly seems like you put in the effort and weren't just hiding behind excuses not to make a case, so I'll keep my word.

UNVOTE: QuantumRadius

I have to find someone new to vote, unless my two compatriots have someone that they feel strongly about. But they've been tired/sick/busy, so might not hear from them for a while. I'm open to hearing cases.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Spoiler: Texcat case before I go to bed.

Ego post!

I guess this is one way to sign your posts. ThinkBig, aren't you supposed to be a hydra?

VOTE: 79 CE

For claiming town and town slipping by not knowing the number of scum in the dark thread.

Rauth could still be scum bussing and expecting the wagon to die.
Not only did Aronis post in red (obviously on the mind due to seeing red on their role pm) but also called the other Scum read town and tried to say that my reads won't be worth reading just because I voiced my opinion on the opening post.

Easy game, easy money.

you decided I'm scum solely because I posted a quote using red text, anybody in their right minds would discard your reads in a heartbeat

So why don't you vote Vedith instead of Rauth? What is your case on Rauth?

The more people post "you should just

know

that I'm town" the more I dislike the playerslot.

This kind of rhetoric is silly. If you really expect people to have a confident town read of you less than thirteen pages into a game (if we remove mastina's posts, this thread is probably only at 10, moderator influencing game thread length, tyranny), you are you silly.

While I do believe that confident posting is good, the high level of "I'm right and you should just

get it

" is irritating and needs to stop. If you want to convince me of something, you're going to have to actually provide reasons rather than try to berate me into thinking you're right because the sky is blue, you had a banana for breakfast, and your dog didn't shit on the floor today. Your good mood or overwhelming magical self-confidence and competence is not a reason that I will accept.

I absolutely agree with this post, but hey, it's mafia; that's what people do.


I still think CE 79 is a good lynch, but Titus, I appreciate your 374 and can see your point, but I see town jump on what they see as an rvs wagon all the time for no reason at all and just because it's there.

Based on this VCA Rauthedir reads like Town newb, Aronis reads like lynchbait, Vedith always annoys me as Town, EddieFenix reads like a limp in vote after not providing more details like I asked. Titus and dramonic seem like scum partners.

Thinking Titus dramonic EddieFenix.

You can deduce all of that from a vote count???

The 79 CE wagon has stalled

That doesn't mean that they're not scum. In fact, some might say that it makes it

more

likely.

96 - This reads fake here. It looks like she is trying to be concerned here, but it really reads like she doesn't care at all.
165 - Shit vote. In the hood they asked why Aristophanes said he was town and made that "slip" and it's a question that doesn't really go anywhere and looks like a faked attempt to gamesolve. Not to mention scum aren't going to fake a townslip to the degree that Aristophanes did in the dark PT. They're gonna try to be a bit more sly about how they do it. If anything, I'd say 70 CE is town because of that.
204 - I don't buy that texcat is concerned about the question being asked here, not to mention the question here seems really manipulative.
383 - Okay. This is what buddying really is. I usually say that buddying isn't a scumtell, but that's because people think buddying is "warming up to someone to get them to townread you" and that's litterally what site BFFs do all of the time and that is not scummy at all. What buddying really is is hiding behind someone else's content. And that is exactly what is happening here. This makes Frosted Town and Texcat scum.
669 - Gaslighting MathBlade. This probably also makes MathBlade town.
926 - Trying to assume why BTD unvoted 70 CE here is scummy. They don't even attempt to hunt or sort the slot or even attempt to figure out why the slot did what it did.

tl;dr Texcat isn't really interested in scumhunting and developing reads, and their tunnel on 70 CE looks super fabricated. If I had a 1 bullet and I was in a room with Hitler, Stalin, and Texcat, I'd shoot Texcat. Too bad I don't have that 1 bullet and the gunstore is closed, so I guess I have to wait for that shit to open I guess. Going to sleep now.

I don't even know where to begin on the flaws in this. And I'm not about to make another wall deconstructing it, but the logic here is just so flawed.

-Kelvin

Quoted for ISO

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Spoiler: Texcat case before I go to bed.

Ego post!

I guess this is one way to sign your posts. ThinkBig, aren't you supposed to be a hydra?

VOTE: 79 CE

For claiming town and town slipping by not knowing the number of scum in the dark thread.

Rauth could still be scum bussing and expecting the wagon to die.
Not only did Aronis post in red (obviously on the mind due to seeing red on their role pm) but also called the other Scum read town and tried to say that my reads won't be worth reading just because I voiced my opinion on the opening post.

Easy game, easy money.

you decided I'm scum solely because I posted a quote using red text, anybody in their right minds would discard your reads in a heartbeat

So why don't you vote Vedith instead of Rauth? What is your case on Rauth?

The more people post "you should just

know

that I'm town" the more I dislike the playerslot.

This kind of rhetoric is silly. If you really expect people to have a confident town read of you less than thirteen pages into a game (if we remove mastina's posts, this thread is probably only at 10, moderator influencing game thread length, tyranny), you are you silly.

While I do believe that confident posting is good, the high level of "I'm right and you should just

get it

" is irritating and needs to stop. If you want to convince me of something, you're going to have to actually provide reasons rather than try to berate me into thinking you're right because the sky is blue, you had a banana for breakfast, and your dog didn't shit on the floor today. Your good mood or overwhelming magical self-confidence and competence is not a reason that I will accept.

I absolutely agree with this post, but hey, it's mafia; that's what people do.


I still think CE 79 is a good lynch, but Titus, I appreciate your 374 and can see your point, but I see town jump on what they see as an rvs wagon all the time for no reason at all and just because it's there.

Based on this VCA Rauthedir reads like Town newb, Aronis reads like lynchbait, Vedith always annoys me as Town, EddieFenix reads like a limp in vote after not providing more details like I asked. Titus and dramonic seem like scum partners.

Thinking Titus dramonic EddieFenix.

You can deduce all of that from a vote count???

The 79 CE wagon has stalled

That doesn't mean that they're not scum. In fact, some might say that it makes it

more

likely.

96 - This reads fake here. It looks like she is trying to be concerned here, but it really reads like she doesn't care at all.

And this is you just casting shade. What on earth makes you think that I was trying to be concerned about hydra slipping? I was annoyed, not concerned. And not even very annoyed.

165 - Shit vote. In the hood they asked why Aristophanes said he was town and made that "slip" and it's a question that doesn't really go anywhere and looks like a faked attempt to gamesolve. Not to mention scum aren't going to fake a townslip to the degree that Aristophanes did in the dark PT. They're gonna try to be a bit more sly about how they do it. If anything, I'd say 70 CE is town because of that.

You say potahto and I say potato. You say shit vote and I say scum vote.

204 - I don't buy that texcat is concerned about the question being asked here, not to mention the question here seems really manipulative.

Why this fascination with my level of concern? No, I wasn't concerned about the question. I thought I saw a contradiction and wanted an explanation of said contradiction. What is so concerning about that?

383 - Okay. This is what buddying really is. I usually say that buddying isn't a scumtell, but that's because people think buddying is "warming up to someone to get them to townread you" and that's litterally what site BFFs do all of the time and that is not scummy at all. What buddying really is is hiding behind someone else's content. And that is exactly what is happening here. This makes Frosted Town and Texcat scum.

LOL. Just LOL.

669 - Gaslighting MathBlade. This probably also makes MathBlade town.

Wow. Do you really think MathBlade should have been able to deduce all of that from one vote count, as he claimed to have?

Spoiler: What do you think of Rauth saying the same thing?

Based on this VCA Rauthedir reads like Town newb, Aronis reads like lynchbait, Vedith always annoys me as Town, EddieFenix reads like a limp in vote after not providing more details like I asked. Titus and dramonic seem like scum partners.

Thinking Titus dramonic EddieFenix.

You can deduce all of that from a vote count???

I have to agree with texcat, where are you getting this from MathBlade? Could you explain that a bit better?

926 - Trying to assume why BTD unvoted 70 CE here is scummy. They don't even attempt to hunt or sort the slot or even attempt to figure out why the slot did what it did.

And this is just outrageously false. You really stretching to throw shade here. I didn't try to assume anything. I didn't assume anything.

Spoiler: BTD explicitly said he was unvoting because the CE wagon was stalled.

The 79 CE wagon has stalled, so I will look at Aronis now instead.

UNVOTE:

tl;dr Texcat isn't really interested in scumhunting and developing reads, and their tunnel on 70 CE looks super fabricated. If I had a 1 bullet and I was in a room with Hitler, Stalin, and Texcat, I'd shoot Texcat. Too bad I don't have that 1 bullet and the gunstore is closed, so I guess I have to wait for that shit to open I guess. Going to sleep now.

I don't even begin to know what to say to this. Yuck.

Oh, cool. texcat did it herself. That solves that.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I've played with her more often, and that would be an anomaly, at least the "less certain" part. I do agree that she mostly tries to stay out of the way or ingratiate herself when scum. As town, she's willing to butt heads to defend her views, even if those views don't make sense. She floods the place with content when interacting with other players, especially players who she believes should know her better, like myself. There ends up being a lot of give and take. This game? None of that. Docile? Check-ish. Less aggressive? Definitely a check there. So...Titus is essentially playing to that scum meta you just described. Why aren't you voting her?

I'm not voting her because I don't see the more docile side of her. Also, still Day 1, which she has many times professed to hate, so her not being in full active mode isn't really a surprise. Though even with that, she's still one of the most active players in the game. And she's been pushing her alternative narrative pretty much the entire time, just like I'd expect.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

then can you drag me and bulba to the light side cause the current ppl over here are awful

Thanks...

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

then can you drag me and bulba to the light side cause the current ppl over here are awful

Thanks...

-Kelvin

are you saying you want me gone??????

I'm saying you just called me awful.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

You willfully ignore the reasoning I stated in the same post I quoted.

You talk about players being easy pushes, that's called calling out scummy shit or sorting players. You're not supposed to know their alignments so literally any of those players could be scum, yet you sit here lambasting me for it.

There's no way right now where I don't think it's scummy as fuck for you to essentially say all 3 of those players are town.

You don't criticize a push cuz it's "easy" sometimes that's all it really fucking is and with the amount of years notched on your belt, you damn well know that.


So tell me, without knowing their alignments, what is the town motivation on your part in invalidating my pushes by making up excuses instead of arguing against what I have already stated to be the reasoning behind my pushes?

I don't know about Bulbazak, but in my opinion, a shit push is a shit fucking push, regardless of the alignment of the people being pushed. If someone is making shitty, opportunistic pushes, then there's nothing wrong with attacking them for that.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

ok idk... ginngie v. bulba is giving me TvS vibes... idrk who's who

Can you help me understand non-directional TvS? I mean, how does something read like that, yet it's not clear which is which? Not a trick question.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

ok idk... ginngie v. bulba is giving me TvS vibes... idrk who's who

Can you help me understand non-directional TvS? I mean, how does something read like that, yet it's not clear which is which? Not a trick question.

-Kelvin

this is a good post btw

In what sense?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

1260 looks like the town Gin I know, even though I've only played once with Gin. Up until then, I was leaning scum, but that post had the same vibe I got from Girls ♥ Girls 1.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

It just looks like typical Aelita to me.
-Ali

Are you saying that Aelita is always useless? Or is this just a Day 1 thing?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

ok idk... ginngie v. bulba is giving me TvS vibes... idrk who's who

Can you help me understand non-directional TvS? I mean, how does something read like that, yet it's not clear which is which? Not a trick question.

-Kelvin

an excellent question.
forgive my self-meta and my terrible explanation for it

in fm I have skills that are, as I would describe, more abstract than factually and logically based.
one of my better skills is reading two-player interactions based on intensity, in cooperation with my individual scumreads
the most intense arguments are usually TvT, because both players know they are on the town side and think that the other could be scum, or someone is annoyed by someone else
TvS usually is slightly less intense/more civil. with the scum player attempting to cooperate with the townie and earn their trust, or to bail from the pressure, it feels like something is being either held back or forced.
SvS are usually quick, not-really-conflict-y interactions. cooperating on a fabricated agenda to support something, or distance from a teammate. usually any real dissonance in the scumteam would be resolved in the maf chat, not in the thread. I almost never read this unless I see obvious ties, or one of them is confmaf

nondirectional tvs is what I read when both players are engaging each other, but I have none of that logic/fact/meta to scumread either in particular, and yet I feel that one of them is artificially engaged, and idk who. something about it feels fake or forced and I can't tell who is at fault

Interesting. It seems odd to me that you could notice artificial engagement without being able to tell which party was the initiator.

Also, holy shit, I'm caught up! Now to go eat cereal, go to sleep, and fall behind again when tomorrow rolls around.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I've played with her more often, and that would be an anomaly, at least the "less certain" part. I do agree that she mostly tries to stay out of the way or ingratiate herself when scum. As town, she's willing to butt heads to defend her views, even if those views don't make sense. She floods the place with content when interacting with other players, especially players who she believes should know her better, like myself. There ends up being a lot of give and take. This game? None of that. Docile? Check-ish. Less aggressive? Definitely a check there. So...Titus is essentially playing to that scum meta you just described. Why aren't you voting her?

I'm not voting her because I don't see the more docile side of her. Also, still Day 1, which she has many times professed to hate, so her not being in full active mode isn't really a surprise. Though even with that, she's still one of the most active players in the game. And she's been pushing her alternative narrative pretty much the entire time, just like I'd expect.

-Kelvin

I haven't felt her presence in this game since the beginning of d1.

I guess I don't really see how that is. But it might just be that I'm more conscious of her since she's one of the few players here that I'm familiar with, so I'm more inclined to notice her.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

What do you mean by that, Titus? What's a "coincidence"?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I'm about ready to go back to titus. What coincidence? I had voted texcat and swapped to titus with the condition that I would move back if the wagon didn't do anything. The wagon didn't do anything so I moved back.

And "conicidentally" that makes the texcat wagon bigger than yours.

Why does it matter which one is bigger though? We're not near the deadline and I haven't heard anything in terms of a consensus lynch right now.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

it's plurality

meaning whichever wagon is highest at deadline is the lynch

it's impossible to no lynch

I understand that. But we're a week away from the deadline, so that's really not too relevant at this moment.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I'm about ready to go back to titus. What coincidence? I had voted texcat and swapped to titus with the condition that I would move back if the wagon didn't do anything. The wagon didn't do anything so I moved back.

And "conicidentally" that makes the texcat wagon bigger than yours.

Why does it matter which one is bigger though? We're not near the deadline and I haven't heard anything in terms of a consensus lynch right now.

-Kelvin

Momentum is a thing.

Sure, I get that, I guess. But where else would you expect him to place his vote? Like you said, momentum is a thing. Other than a self-vote, there are no wagons with momentum. So what makes it a "coincidence," rather than just a coincidence?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Titus, are you familiar at all with Rauth's playstyle and scumhunting? Also, are you implying that one must scumhunt in order to be town?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Titus, are you familiar at all with Rauth's playstyle and scumhunting? Also, are you implying that one must scumhunt in order to be town?

-Kelvin

Meta is shit.

Yes.

Meta is flawed. Don't know if I'd call it shit. But it's fucking short-sighted and foolish to say that a lack of scumhunting is scum-indicative if a person has a history of not scumhunting while town.

So then I must not be town because I'm not scumhunting, right?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

minor pings from aronis here and there, not sure how ai that is

Dude, just get on aronis then and push me for bussing after he flips scum.

d-did you just claim scum?
okay right

No.



I seriously am this close on giving up and losing faith in town.

you just suggested that you are bussing a mafia teammate
what reaction did you expect from me

I don't even know what to do with this.

The tone is meant to be "Sure whatever, believe I'm scum. Help me "bus"."

I do this all the time in sarcasm.

>I do this all the time in sarcasm.
>Meta is shit.

Fucking choose one.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

minor pings from aronis here and there, not sure how ai that is

Dude, just get on aronis then and push me for bussing after he flips scum.

d-did you just claim scum?
okay right

No.



I seriously am this close on giving up and losing faith in town.

you just suggested that you are bussing a mafia teammate
what reaction did you expect from me

I don't even know what to do with this.

The tone is meant to be "Sure whatever, believe I'm scum. Help me "bus"."

I do this all the time in sarcasm.

>I do this all the time in sarcasm.
>Meta is shit.

Fucking choose one.

-Kelvin

Both because personality isn't meta. I didn't say I do it as town. I just do it. Period.

So then how do you know Rauth's play isn't a result of personality, rather than alignment?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Hey Cirnio, talk to me about your Aronis read. Have you read? Is there anyone you don't want to throw off a cliff besides A2?

I would say "because you're scumreading him" but

I got a townfeel from the cockiness after bulba called him town.

Also why would I not want to throw A2 off the cliff?

Because A2 is awesome and obvious town.

Is this going to be another game like railgun where I get move of the scumteam right but one anti-town guy drives it into the ground?

I didn't realize "got most of the scumteam" now meant "got 1/3 right by pure chance." See, this is why I can't trust your reads for a damn.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Because it serves no useful town function.

The vast majority of the things that people do in Mafia serve no useful function to town. What is your point?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Hey Cirnio, talk to me about your Aronis read. Have you read? Is there anyone you don't want to throw off a cliff besides A2?

I would say "because you're scumreading him" but

I got a townfeel from the cockiness after bulba called him town.

Also why would I not want to throw A2 off the cliff?

Because A2 is awesome and obvious town.

Is this going to be another game like railgun where I get move of the scumteam right but one anti-town guy drives it into the ground?

I didn't realize "got most of the scumteam" now meant "got 1/3 right by pure chance." See, this is why I can't trust your reads for a damn.

-Kelvin

First, read the first posts. This game has 4 scum. So there's no way I have caught 1/3. Second, rather than saying pure luck, you'd learn more by seeing where I am right and wrong if you're using meta to discredit, go the full monte.

I'm talking about Railgun, TItus. You didn't have the scum team pegged for shit. The only one you called of the three scum was me and that seemed to be mostly because you confbiased yourself into believing that Wisdom and I were scum together, even though we weren't. You didn't get any of the other scum.

And let's not forget nancy's game, where for most of the game, your scumreads were me, Nacho, and random other person that I don't think you were ever right about. And your scumread on me was because I attacked you for fairly legitimate reasons, given my lack of experience with you. But you just went on misreping me and actively refusing to even interact with me, no matter how many times I tried to engage you.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Let me make a summary.

Gin: Math why your read change on me
Math: *ketchup posting*
Gin: Math?
Math: *more ketchup posting*
Gin: MATH WHAT AM I, A CHOPPED LIVER?????
MATH: OMG STOP SPAMMING SCUM

quantum in the background: _{hey guys I'm finding scum I think
help}

Hey, we can still talk reads if you want...

1) you're in my reads. nice try, I'm not falling for read pollution
2) i need advice from slightly more competent townies than me
Kelvin's been super helpful but he's like the only one who I can follow reasonably that's actually responded to me on anything

If you want to talk reads, I'd be happy to. I might not be more competent than you, but I think I'm a pretty good sounding board.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Guys, I've lost count of how many people have said something to the effect of "only scum do this, so this person must be scum." It's super frustrating because it's a stupid and inaccurate thing to say. I've been asking this for several games now and never get an answer, but what are you going to do if you are wrong? Are you actually going to learn from that shit and realize that only fools and scum deal in absolutes? Or are you just gonna keep on keeping on with the same bullshit rhetoric? I'm asking because I'm trying to understand Mafia players better so that I can further figure out how to be a useful contributor.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Hey Cirnio, talk to me about your Aronis read. Have you read? Is there anyone you don't want to throw off a cliff besides A2?

I would say "because you're scumreading him" but

I got a townfeel from the cockiness after bulba called him town.

Also why would I not want to throw A2 off the cliff?

Because A2 is awesome and obvious town.

Is this going to be another game like railgun where I get move of the scumteam right but one anti-town guy drives it into the ground?

I didn't realize "got most of the scumteam" now meant "got 1/3 right by pure chance." See, this is why I can't trust your reads for a damn.

-Kelvin

First, read the first posts. This game has 4 scum. So there's no way I have caught 1/3. Second, rather than saying pure luck, you'd learn more by seeing where I am right and wrong if you're using meta to discredit, go the full monte.

I'm talking about Railgun, TItus. You didn't have the scum team pegged for shit. The only one you called of the three scum was me and that seemed to be mostly because you confbiased yourself into believing that Wisdom and I were scum together, even though we weren't. You didn't get any of the other scum.

And let's not forget nancy's game, where for most of the game, your scumreads were me, Nacho, and random other person that I don't think you were ever right about. And your scumread on me was because I attacked you for fairly legitimate reasons, given my lack of experience with you. But you just went on misreping me and actively refusing to even interact with me, no matter how many times I tried to engage you.

-Kelvin

Masons I false scumread all the time. Reason, they are as fake as scum. So Nacho registering as scum for being fake was accurate. My tone changed after he flipped mason in girls for a reason. I own that's a weakness of mine.

My other weakness is jerks who fail to explain themselves. I am here engaging you now about my flaws and letting you rip into me in the hopes you'll actually listen. My reads have been evolving based on new data. But if you keep being hung up on the past, then this game will be harder.

Let the meta go.

It's not about the meta and I'm not trying to be hung up on the past, honestly. But when I have a history with you where your reads are inaccurate, it makes it hard to trust your reads. Especially when you overstate how good your past reads were, as per Railgun. It doesn't make it sound like you've learned anything from those inaccurate reads. It's not like this is some far past thing either, this is within the last month or two.

Again, I'm not trying to attack you for that, but I want you to understand my perspective here and why I'm hesitant to follow your lead. I like you as a person and I really like the stuff you said in Titus Academy, but in game I sometimes feel like all that great game theory falls by the wayside with you. And I get it, to an extent, because I do the same thing. It's hard to operate idealistically when the whole meta on this site feels like it's the antithesis of cooperation and mutual understanding. But even then, that doesn't mean I can just make myself believe that what you're saying makes sense to me.

But I do like what I'm seeing this game. If nothing else, the fact that you've been willing to evolve on your reads is heartening to me (and is going to be really heartbreaking to me if you flip scum). I'm willing to try to work with you, but I need you to understand that I'm not going to agree with you all of the time. And if I don't see what you see, then I need you to be open to that and allow a dialogue to occur, rather than a shouting match or finger-pointing. If you can do that for me, I can try to start moving forward. Okay?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Guys, I've lost count of how many people have said something to the effect of "only scum do this, so this person must be scum." It's super frustrating because it's a stupid and inaccurate thing to say. I've been asking this for several games now and never get an answer, but what are you going to do if you are wrong? Are you actually going to learn from that shit and realize that only fools and scum deal in absolutes? Or are you just gonna keep on keeping on with the same bullshit rhetoric? I'm asking because I'm trying to understand Mafia players better so that I can further figure out how to be a useful contributor.

-Kelvin

Kelvin, I like this.

I try not to say only scum do this.
If a slot is anti-town and has no scumhunting, I lock SR it until it shows otherwise.

There's a difference between no town use and only scum do this.

If any theory is wrong, you step back and reevaluate.

Why lock it then though? That makes it sound so obstinate and rigid.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

So to be clear, Alisae, Gin is scum because...? And this is a policy lynch or not? Can a policy lynch on scum even exist? Like, I think everybody "policy lynches" scum.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

A2 is town
So is Ginngie

Screw every one of you

What the hell did I do? Am I posting too much? But if I collect my thoughts into a wall, nobody fucking reads them.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Of course. I know my weaknesses. I say them to try and foster a dialogue. Agreeing to disagree is ok. I felt like I could never get that in girls. I was correct the opening was fake because I had witnessed Nacho sort Tammy and he wasn't there. So even if you disagree, it's important to get to the essence.

So your reads? How do I get through to QR?

Alrighty then, let's work together.

As I said in two earlier posts (maybe you missed them), I've got no reads and I'm not scumhunting. I've come to the conclusion that it's pointless for me to post reads. When I was going to retire a month or so ago, I went on many rants about how I think the game of Mafia is primarily random bullshit and it's impossible to be good at it.

I'm still not sure that assessment's false, but I'm trying to experiment now and see if I can find ways to make the game enjoyable for me, while still being an asset to the town. Part of that means not bothering with reads. They frustrate me because I'm pretty consistently always wrong, especially when I try to build a case on somebody. And what's more, I think they make me more likely to lean towards confirmation bias and tunnel vision.

So rather than that, I am trying a more flexible playstyle that is more about interact with others and helping them develop and better sense of the game. If my gut tells me to vote or I think I can use it for pressure, I will. Otherwise, I'll vote with somebody whose scumhunting abilities I trust, someone who produces a good case, or wherever the other heads of the Hydra want to place the vote. I assume that this won't be a popular playstyle, but I fully plan to develop it for the time being, so I imagine I'll be on the receiving end of a few policy lynches in my games to come.

With all that out of the way, what would you like to talk about?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Oh hey, I look to start finally getting involved in the game and a wild DrCirno appears.

Who looks scum for you so far?

-Branson

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

It wasn't really directed at you but
Your posts ever since I replaced in belong in Mafia Discussion thread.

Yeah, people say that to me all the time. I've never agreed before and I doubt I'll start now. Sometimes theory discussion is important to understanding the players that you are playing with, getting them to understand you, and getting them (and yourself) to consider alternate perspectives. Like, I don't get why that's only obvious to me.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Alright

What have you read through so far?

-Branson

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

A2 is town
So is Ginngie

Screw every one of you

What the hell did I do? Am I posting too much? But if I collect my thoughts into a wall, nobody fucking reads them.

-Kelvin

I will.

The thing is, even if you did, most other people won't. They never have for as long as I've played Mafia. And I honestly don't have the time or willpower to wallpost anymore. I'd typically spend a minimum of an hour on a post back in the day. And for what? So I could be wrong and get ignored? That doesn't help anybody. Nah, if I can avoid it, I never want to post a wall again.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Some random ISOs!
And some posts that I'd rather not have read.

What's your take on this game thus far?

Nothing yet, I'm just now starting to get any kind of handle on the game. Currently I'm doing that by jumping to a random page and... reading through a whole lot of random 79 CE posts that are borderline useless.

yay

-Branson

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Of course. I know my weaknesses. I say them to try and foster a dialogue. Agreeing to disagree is ok. I felt like I could never get that in girls. I was correct the opening was fake because I had witnessed Nacho sort Tammy and he wasn't there. So even if you disagree, it's important to get to the essence.

So your reads? How do I get through to QR?

Alrighty then, let's work together.

As I said in two earlier posts (maybe you missed them), I've got no reads and I'm not scumhunting. I've come to the conclusion that it's pointless for me to post reads. When I was going to retire a month or so ago, I went on many rants about how I think the game of Mafia is primarily random bullshit and it's impossible to be good at it.

I'm still not sure that assessment's false, but I'm trying to experiment now and see if I can find ways to make the game enjoyable for me, while still being an asset to the town. Part of that means not bothering with reads. They frustrate me because I'm pretty consistently always wrong, especially when I try to build a case on somebody. And what's more, I think they make me more likely to lean towards confirmation bias and tunnel vision.

So rather than that, I am trying a more flexible playstyle that is more about interact with others and helping them develop and better sense of the game. If my gut tells me to vote or I think I can use it for pressure, I will. Otherwise, I'll vote with somebody whose scumhunting abilities I trust, someone who produces a good case, or wherever the other heads of the Hydra want to place the vote. I assume that this won't be a popular playstyle, but I fully plan to develop it for the time being, so I imagine I'll be on the receiving end of a few policy lynches in my games to come.

With all that out of the way, what would you like to talk about?

-Kelvin

Ok, well I find it easier when the other slot has reads. As long as you post detailed thoughts, I'll call what you are doing scumhunting.

I view QR's tunnel on me as anti-town. How do I get him to move on?

Alright, feel free to call it whatever you want.

And yeah, I agree. But as a rule of thumb, I think that's true of tunneling in general. I'm hoping that if I talk to her about read clarification, that might help. And I'm still waiting for her to read my post in response to her case on you. That should make things a bit clearer.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Okay, hold up.

I'm noticing that there was a significant 79 CE wagon way back on page 32, but it's completely gone now. What exactly caused that considering I really don't like a lot of the posts that slot made on page 31?

-Branson

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

It wasn't really directed at you but
Your posts ever since I replaced in belong in Mafia Discussion thread.

Yeah, people say that to me

all the time

. I've never agreed before and I doubt I'll start now.

Sometimes

theory discussion is important to understanding the players that you are playing with, getting them to understand you, and getting them (and yourself) to consider alternate perspectives. Like, I don't get why that's only obvious to me.

-Kelvin

Here's your problem.

My problem is that...? Other people don't like theory discussion in-game, but I think it gives me a better handle on the people I'm playing with and that it would give them a better handle on me if they actually participated?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

A2 is town
So is Ginngie

Screw every one of you

What the hell did I do? Am I posting too much? But if I collect my thoughts into a wall, nobody fucking reads them.

-Kelvin

I will.

The thing is, even if you did, most other people won't. They never have for as long as I've played Mafia. And I honestly don't have the time or willpower to wallpost anymore. I'd typically spend a minimum of an hour on a post back in the day. And for what? So I could be wrong and get ignored? That doesn't help anybody. Nah, if I can avoid it, I never want to post a wall again.

-Kelvin

Ok, do remember to tailor to your audience. I read everything and process rather quickly.

But you aren't exclusively my audience. There's like... 17-ish(?) other people in this game. As well as a plethora of other players on-site who don't give wallposters the time of day. Or was that your point? I'm not really sure.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

It wasn't really directed at you but
Your posts ever since I replaced in belong in Mafia Discussion thread.

Yeah, people say that to me

all the time

. I've never agreed before and I doubt I'll start now.

Sometimes

theory discussion is important to understanding the players that you are playing with, getting them to understand you, and getting them (and yourself) to consider alternate perspectives. Like, I don't get why that's only obvious to me.

-Kelvin

Here's your problem.

My problem is that...? Other people don't like theory discussion in-game, but I think it gives me a better handle on the people I'm playing with and that it would give them a better handle on me if they actually participated?

-Kelvin

So what have you learned about Titus so far?

I've learned more about what sort of criteria she espouses to apply. I've managed to reach an understanding with her that is hopefully the beginning of a legitimate townbloc.

I also like this kind of theory discussion because I get a better idea of who I can work with as the game progresses. Those with rigid stances on game theory are ones that I think are less easy to work with, so I can adjust accordingly.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Let me get myself clear actually.
I don't have a problem with theory talks now and then. Sometimes it's not avoidable.
I do have a problem with keep doing the theory talks.

And you're welcome to your opinion on that. I happen to disagree. If I think a discussion of theory ceases to be fruitful, I will cease discussing it. Right now, I don't think there's much to discuss. If more comes up that I think will help me or someone else, I'll pursue it though.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

VOTE: texcat

Boooo

Are you saying "boo" or "Boo-urns"?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

VOTE: texcat

Boooo

Are you saying "boo" or "Boo-urns"?

-Kelvin

Booing a football player kinda boo.

I'm beginning to suspect you aren't a Simpsons fan.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

VOTE: texcat

Boooo

Are you saying "boo" or "Boo-urns"?

-Kelvin

Booing a football player kinda boo.

I'm beginning to suspect you aren't a Simpsons fan.

-Kelvin

Dude, Maggie totally shot Mr. Burns. I've seen a lot of Simpsons episodes. My favorite is good bart bad lisa. Don't ask me the name.

Springfield Confidential, I think? I could Google it, but then I'd lose fancred if I was right.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Fuck!

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

1. I was thinking of Grade School Confidential.
2. It was Separate Vocations.
I am a failure. I'm gonna stop spamming Simpsons crap now.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Aronis, please stop just saying that posts are "good." It adds almost nothing of value and it doesn't even allow anyone to understand or scrutinize your reasoning. This goes for everybody, your posting is simply the most recent and egregious.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

<<< Aelita has been prodded; this is her second prod this day phase. She has until this time to post: (expired on 2017-06-25 19:25:22). She is also on probation activity-wise and cannot afford to be prodded again this day phase. >>>

Aelita has reached the prod timer for the third time this day phase and thus is being replaced... when mastina gets up.

And on that day, nothing of value was lost.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

re:1736
@aronis
1) sorry
2) why would you claim

It's called an obvious fakeclaim. Welcome to Mafiascum.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

re:1736
@aronis
1) sorry
2) why would you claim

It's called an obvious fakeclaim. Welcome to Mafiascum.

-Kelvin

yeah, no. that's completely false
you pretty much have to share a pt with another player to even consider mason a viable fakeclaim
so if one mason flips maf so are all the rest
that's WAAAY too risky for a d1, plus you can't say that you masoned with a dead player cuz there are none
there's no way that's fake.

Except that he's in the Dark and wouldn't know he's a Mason as town (unless I am misunderstanding the game mechanics). So yeah... Welcome to fucking Mafiascum.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

So, to be clear, the case on texcat is... what?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Yeah, Therealzeus looks awkward though.

In what sense?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

i'm sorry in advance, kelvin

You don't have to apologize. I'm not necessarily opposed to reading walls. I'm just probably not going to respond to most arguments.

And did you ever read my responses to your Titus case?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Ya know, it gets to the point where it sounds fake

it's about 50% exaggeration, yes
but seriously, don't do that, it makes me nervous
i've only lead a town once and everything went to shit very quickly

If it makes you feel any better, as long as I'm alive, I won't let you lead the town.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Anyone care to sum up the Snarky and Aronis cases right now? Other than their general uselessness, why do you guys feel like they are the right call? Rest of the wagons right now are pretty unimpressive and we've got three days left, so I'm thinking I'll place our vote on one of them.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Snarky is lack of content and a strong town read on TB when there was no reason to have TB at anything but null

That's a pretty subjective case there. You're basically just attacking his criteria for townreading. I could vote half the people in this game just based on the awful reasoning they've given for a scum/town read.

I still don't think a person' activity levels are a strong indicator of alignment, since there are too many potential outside factors that we can't know. I did a quick background check to see if he was active on the site (he's not) and saw that one of his recent games he won as an SK through lurking. In addition, his last couple scum games (he hasn't drawn town very recently) all showed regularly at or near the bottom levels of activity. Though his most recent town game (that I could find) had him just slightly more active, though still the lowest-posting non-scum player to survive until the end.

So ultimately, there's not really anything to go on with him. Still, his lurking habits are going to make him difficult to deal with overall. If we're going to commit to a baseless wagon today, I guess it might as well be his, unless somebody can convince me of Aronis as scum.

VOTE: SnarkySnowman

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

To be fair, you should probably have added Keyent Think to that ISO too, not that it would have added anything. But as for his reasoning, he stated that it was because of ThinkBig trying to move the game forward early on, so I'm assuming he meant 79 and/or 113. Again, that's pretty damn weak reasoning, but I've seen equally bad, if not worse, reasoning in this very game by other players. This is just one more on the pile for me.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I'm failing to see how your Snarky wagon isn't lazy.

It's not

not

a lazy wagon. It's just the least of all present evils.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Kelvin tell me something
what other wagons are you interested in?

None in particular. There's rarely such a thing as a good Day 1 wagon. There are usually only varying shades of bad Day 1 wagons. By my reckoning, this is currently the least bad one.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I wanted your scumreads dammit
zzz

I swear people never read what I say. I don't do "reads." Reads lead to "sorting," which leads to confirmation bias, which leads to poor decisions, which leads to town losses. That's not what I'm about. I'm about trying to be reasonable and make good decisions based on the state of the game at any given moment. Part of that comes in the form f trying to help others refine their ideas or questioning things that I view as illogical. At some point, I'm bound to get some gut reads (like my feelings on Titus) that are probably going to lead to me making poor decisions, because my reads are shit (because humans are underskilled and overconfident at correctly guessing and interpreting the intentions of others, especially through text). But I want to try to ignore those or only use them to enhance independently logical decisions.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I read it
tbh I just forgot for a moment because I am really tired
fuck me why did I wake up this early.

What are your opinions on the other wagons and why?

The texcat "rolefishing" case always has been and always will be fucking bunk. I think somebody may have also posted a shitty case on texcat that I read, but my memory is fuzzy.

Aronis has been pretty useless, but has he actually been scummy? I've asked people to summarize the case and nobody has. I think it was more than "red font" and obviously fake Mason claims, but I'll be damned if I know what it is.

The single vote on Vedith could be described similarly to the Aronis wagon, only it has less momentum for some baffling reason. Both players have been equally valueless to the game so far, as near as I can tell. One just gets townread more because...?

I only skimmed the Eddie case, but I don't recall it being remotely compelling.

The Snarky case isn't particularly compelling either and I don't subscribe to the lynch all lurkers mindset, but there's fucking nobody that looks like a better lynch right now and he's apparently a pretty damn good lurker if he can pull an SK kill while lurking, so that's legitimately worrisome to me.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

This Aronis wagon just got fucking dumber...

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

idk, the last 3 votes are all townreads.

Are you implying that makes the votes somehow not dumb?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

SAD posted in the dark PT, texact said they freaked out because they thought SAD was an imposter or something. It was just a really fake post.

What about the post implied town? What I mean is, in what way was it meant to manipulate us into believing that she's town? Why can't be that she was legitimately weirded out for s second and decided to share that information with us because she thought it was a funny anecdote?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

To carry on my previous point: I was just at a wrestling show (NJPW G1 Special). Near the beginning of the show, some wrestlers came out and I didn't know their names. and it was too loud to hear the announcers. Having watched wrestling on television for most of my life, I expected a box to appear in the air and list their names. Then I realized I was in the real world and that would never happen. So I leaned over to my friend and swiftly told him of my foolishness, because it was a funny story. A good time was had by all.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Because Arthur shitposts in the scum PT and she's presumably thinking that pretending she doesn't know who Arthur is going to make her seem uninformed etc.

I don't know. That feels like a bit of a stretch. Should I be scumreading you by the same token for your posts where you appeared uninformed in the Dark PT?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

See, this is why I don't believe in this whole "reads" thing that people do. Too many assumptions for reasons that are far too tenuous.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Because Arthur shitposts in the scum PT and she's presumably thinking that pretending she doesn't know who Arthur is going to make her seem uninformed etc.

I don't know. That feels like a bit of a stretch. Should I be scumreading you by the same token for your posts where you appeared uninformed in the Dark PT?

-Kelvin

Fake post: slightly below null
Does nothing in thread: scumread

Yeah, but lots of people do nothing. They can't all be scum. This sounds like that "confirmation bias" thing I keep hearing about.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Yeah, but lots of people do nothing. They can't all be scum. This sounds like that "confirmation bias" thing I keep hearing about.

Kelvin jesus, read my posts.

I have. I'm seeing your exchange with Gin too. And you're still making assumptions, including the one that SAD shitposted in the Scum PT first and that texcat read it first. And that she was definitely lying and couldn't have just been surprised. Who cares that she should logically know that only somebody who should have access would have access? Human beings aren't always logical. Case in point, my story about earlier tonight.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Like, holy shit. You're acting as if I'm saing that texcat is conf!scum for a fake-seeming reaction to Arthur's shitpost. Read my actual posts, talk to me about my actual position. Because right now you're not.

pedit don't remember let me go look

I'm not saying you're saying that. I'm saying that the confirmation bias may be you initially feeling the first post was faked, then after finding her content to be lacking, it intensified the already slight read.

Anyway, homework due in 1.5 hours. Better stop slacking off in here. God, I hate this class and it's bullshit Saturday night homework due policy.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Can we just pull one of Aronis/Rauth into light to make sure we don't lynch a mason and Aronis guessed at his role?

I don't think they're masons? It's just some role that's linked with another role and Aronis knew who he was linked to. If he correctly guessed it he would've said so rather than just scumclaim with an eyeroll and exit thread?

Last post for real, but just some food for thought. Have you seen how Aronis posts? Why would you think that he'd do anything like a reasonable person? Why the assumption that he's bad scum, rather than bad town?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I clearly misread some shit while I was out on m phone. I fucking thought Rauth said that he knew Aronis was linked to him, but didn't specifically know that he was a Mason.

Rauth, just to be sure before I vote Aronis, did you at all breadcrumb your role in any way that might have led him to figure out that you're linked to him? If not, we should lynch Aronis.

@Mastina:

I don't know if you can or will answer this, but hypothetically, would a scum Mason be possible?

-Kelvin

<<< Answered in 2178. >>>

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

IT WOULD BE A NEIGHBORHOOD OF SCUM AND A TOWNIE

A MASON

IS ONE THAT KNOWS

THAT THEIR LINKED PARTNERS

ARE NOT PART OF THE MAFIA

AND WITH IT BEING EXPLICITLY 14:4 TOWN:MAFIA

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE A SCUM MASON

Yeah, I was also thinking that, but please look here. It says that scum Masons can sometimes be a thing. I didn't know that until now. I thought the difference between a Masonry and a Neighborhood was the assurance that all members were town, which is part of why I thought the wagon was so dumb, in addition to when I misread what Rauth said.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

and with it being explicitly 14:4 Town:mafia

I know the wiki

mafia is a no go in a masonry

are there other parties in this game? No.

so a masonry is a perfect masonry.

Where does it say that in the Wiki? It implies that having scum Masons is bastardry and it says non-town Masons are non-Normal, but this isn't a Normal setup, right? I was under the impression it doesn't have to follow Normal rules.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

IT WOULD BE A NEIGHBORHOOD OF SCUM AND A TOWNIE

A MASON

IS ONE THAT KNOWS

THAT THEIR LINKED PARTNERS

ARE NOT PART OF THE MAFIA

AND WITH IT BEING EXPLICITLY 14:4 TOWN:MAFIA

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE A SCUM MASON

Yeah, I was also thinking that, but please look here. It says that scum Masons can sometimes be a thing. I didn't know that until now. I thought the difference between a Masonry and a Neighborhood was the assurance that all members were town, which is part of why I thought the wagon was so dumb, in addition to when I misread what Rauth said.

-Kelvin

Scum masons are bastard.

Game is not bastard.

There is the chance of both being lying scum but scum masons not a thing.

If that's the case, then mastina should be able to easily confirm that there cannot be scum Masons in this setup, correct? Sure, you guys could tell me that it's definitely bastard, but there's no harm in confirming it with the mod, right?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

"as the definition of a Mason or Monk is that they are confirmed not to be a member of a specific non-Town faction."

There is 1 non-Town faction.

any more questions

please say no

The Mason role has generated a fair amount of controversy and a few offshoots. Be sure you ask the moderator what precisely it means to be a Mason, as all of the below have been known to simply be called "Mason".

Most notoriously, some moderators will introduce Mafia-aligned Masons, taking the term "Mason" to imply that it is probable that the other Masons are Town-aligned, and not absolute. These nonconfirmed Masons are supposed to be middling in certainty between Neighbors (see below) and confirmed Masons; however, this is impossible to mathematically verify.

So there's that...

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Like why is Aronis the highest on VC in the first post?

When he is obvTowning so damn hard?

Did like the world go topsy turvy?

Oh my God with is obvtown crap! What

actual

reasons do you have to think he's town?

1. Aronis claimed Masons with Rauth.

2. Rauth claimed that he is "town-linked," but said he didn't know who he was linked with.

3. Rauth further states that he never made any willful posts to softclaim his town-linked status.

4. Therefore, since Aronis claimed to know who his linked partner was, he must be scum, because otherwise he wouldn't know who he's linked to.

The only debate right now is over the "Mason" part of the claim, because that should confirm him as town. Some would like to wait for Rauth to reach the Light and confirm things.

I'm personally torn on that, because it does seem worth waiting to be cautious. But by the same token, scum control the switch, so they have the ability to functionally never allow Rauth into the Light, meaning we won't actually ever get to that point.

Granted, if sides become unbalanced, we're allowed to vote to balance the sides, but scum can counter that option by just leaving it sides relatively balanced. That might be strategically advantageous, but I could also see it not being, so I'm really unsure which course of action is the best.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Okay we're making a new form of analysis, instead of post by post analysis, I need a word by word analysis because there is no way I see role fishing.

Don't worry, you aren't alone. It doesn't exist anywhere, except in MathBlade's mind.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

srry guys I guess I kinda fucked up, but I'm town so can we plz not lynch me. I'll even stop spamming and try to be a productive member of society next day phase

If you aren't scum, then please explain how you knew Rauth was also linked.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Okay, that's that question answered. Now we still have to figure out if we want to wait for Rauth to go Light before lynching Aronis. I guess it's probably worthwhile to wait it out. If sides ever become unbalanced, we'll just have to prioritize bringing Rauth to the Light.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Thank you for squaring that away, Mastina. Much appreciated.

So now that we have that all squared away, Aronis and Rauth, has there been ANYTHING in (I'm assuming that you have one with this question) your neighborhood? What's going on in the dark PT? Kelvin, does anyone else in the hydra have thoughts on things? Ginngie, what makes me null to you? Besides not being able to read me lol.

Nothing is really going on in the Dark PT. I think the general consensus is that these PTs are too big and can change too frequently to be of any use. At the very least, a couple people said that and nobody really contradicted it.

As for the rest of the hydra, they aren't present at all right now. I haven't really even heard from them recently. I imagine we'll hear from them more once Day 2 rolls around, but for now it's probably best to assume you'll only be hearing from me for a while.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Thank you for squaring that away, Mastina. Much appreciated.

So now that we have that all squared away, Aronis and Rauth, has there been ANYTHING in (I'm assuming that you have one with this question) your neighborhood? What's going on in the dark PT? Kelvin, does anyone else in the hydra have thoughts on things? Ginngie, what makes me null to you? Besides not being able to read me lol.

Nothing is really going on in the Dark PT. I think the general consensus is that these PTs are too big and can change too frequently to be of any use. At the very least, a couple people said that and nobody really contradicted it.

As for the rest of the hydra, they aren't present at all right now. I haven't really even heard from them recently. I imagine we'll hear from them more once Day 2 rolls around, but for now it's probably best to assume you'll only be hearing from me for a while.

-Kelvin

FoS on whoever said that in the dark pool. The light and dark PTs are tools that can be used to extract thoughts and put the squeeze on scum. Letting them sit idle like light is too is HORRIBLE!!!! Like forcing scum to post more explain reads that is a neighborhood's main function. Wtf?

Alternatively, it's absolutely useless to ever post there, rather than here. It just creates an unnecessary filter through which fewer players have a chance to interpret the intentions and actions of the rest of the players. Like, we've literally already seen its downfall throughout the course of this game and its Day 1.

We can't even use it to share privileged information or safely discuss any strategy, because it's such a big player list that scum is pretty much guaranteed to be in both PTs. And due to the switching mechanic, we can't even properly handle information leaks.

In short, it provides no discernable advantage to the taken when compared to just posting here. And I'm pretty sure I was the first one to bring it up, so FoS me all you want. But if you can't even see the why my argument might have merit, even if you don't agree with it, then you're the suspicious one.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I don't see the merit of a bad argument.

A neighborhood CAN be used for the things you mentioned but that isn't its exclusive purpose.

Take the game I was SK with you in. Priscilla used that to pressure me more so than she ever did in thread. Literally no break for scum. The consistency requirement is much more potent than any PR and anyone trying to not post there is trying to dodge that. Take Shadowrun. I literally had to post 23 hours straight to keep up my persona with the adventures. Ever since that game I fucking hate hoods as either alignment. It makes me feel like there is no true "night" for scum only random kills that happen during a constantly moving game. That "night" helps me reset my reads if needed and gives me a chance to breathe and people to have lives.

So as Town or scum a no night hood is exhausting if used correctly.

It's not a bad argument and you haven't actually expressed why it doesn't have any merit. In fact, you even confirmed that they can be used in the way I described.

Divergent's hood (and most hoods) aren't really relevant in this scenario. They are fixed and much smaller, meaning it can be much easier to deal with information leaks and discover the leaker. The fact that regular neighborhoods are fixed also means you have the potential to work up to some level of trust with the other players. Not so in a game where literally half the players are in the hood and there is no telling when anyone will leave and who will take their place.

And there's no constant requirement, other than the ones you place on yourself. You're a human being with a life outside of MafiaScum (presumably), so it's not unreasonable for you to take a break at literally any time. Nobody is forcing you to post 24 hours a day and if anybody tries to lynch someone because they aren't, that person is probably an idiot.

There's an argument to be had for these neighborhoods being useful when it's not the Day phase, but it is ow, so it's useless. And even then, there's an argument that that can be detrimental to town too. It gives scum a chance to read what the town's thoughts are during Night and adjust accordingly. It's not like it gives much chance for town to coordinate for the next Day either. So, again, what is the actual point?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Both

Aronis

and rauth

are town linked

THE POSSIBILITY IS THERE

I don't see the possibility. It does not look possible to me within the rules on the dark side that you quoted.

Just because you don't see the possibility, doesn't mean that there is not a possibility. That's why we should find out how Aronis knew. If his reasoning is plausible, then there's certainly no reason to lynch him yet.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I'm pretty sure he just guessed

That's one hell of a guess. The odds on that aren't good.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Nothing is really going on in the Dark PT. I think the general consensus is that these PTs are too big and can change too frequently to be of any use. At the very least, a couple people said that and nobody really contradicted it.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

What does anyone expect to gain from my lynch vs ginngie or even aronis? Like there are associatives you can draw from those. Mine is just like "you lynched snarky?" "yeah" "k" and the day was wasted on that.

What associations could we draw from those?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Yeah definitely okay with lynching Snarky his reads are ridiculous.

Everyone's reads are ridiculous. Welcome to Mafia. I'm still all for lynching Snarky, but if we're lynching for bad reads, we've got no shortage of players to choose from.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Aronis, how did you know that you were linked to Rauth?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

can we maybe try to lynch someone for whom we actually have some evidence for being scum
from an outsider's pov, d1 has been a whole lot of nothing
VOTE: titus

You wanna lynch someone who there is evidence for, then vote Titus? Good joke. Were you ever going to get around to responding to my deconstruction of your case on her?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I see an awful lot of vanity wagons still going around, as well as a bunch of no votes. So effectively half the game is abstaining from taking part in the Snarky lynch wagon while tacitly supporting one or the other. Boy, people are going to have a field day analyzing this one.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

{Bran, A2, Math, Quantum, Rauth}
{Gin, Titus, texcat, Creature, dramonic, BTD6_maker}
{Vedith, Bulbazak}
{EddieFenix}
{Snarky, DrCirno, Aronis}

So just to be super clear right now, you think that Snarky is bussing Aronis and Cirno is bussing Snarky?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

wait.

so your excuse is that... you guessed

yeah I'm not buying it
VOTE: aronis

can we maybe try to lynch someone for whom we actually have some evidence for being scum
from an outsider's pov, d1 has been a whole lot of nothing
VOTE: titus

First of all, what changed between those two posts that makes you think that makes you think the Aronis wagon is awful?

Secondly, don't pretend that you aren't supporting either wagon by voting a wagon that has quite literally zero chance of happening. Even if you don't believe in either lynch, why aren't you on the lesser of the two evils? Or are you so certain that both are town that you don't care which gets lynched?

Third, it's a joke to say that those two wagons are bad, but that Titus is someone good place to have your vote on.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

What is a ti?

I mean, the Gin wagon is certainly more doable, so at least you're trying, but I don't think it's better than a Snarky wagon, no.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

ti = town investigative

sorry bad old site habits

Let's say he is a town investigative role. How do we transform that into something valuable to us? Scum certainly aren't going to put him into the Light if his claim is true. And if we ever get the chance to vote to put him into the Light, is he really the person that we want to move, when there is a decent chance that he is scum?

I need to check again, but did he say that he is investigative and linked? Or was the linked thing a lie?

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I just sarcastically claimed Mason

I was never told it was sarcasm.

Why everybody assumed it was real?

Half the people thought it was sarcasm until Rauth came in and said that he was linked. Since Aronis claimed Masons with Rauth, I started taking it seriously. Now I'm less sure, because I find it hard to believe that it was a lucky guess. At the same time, it doesn't change the fact that it seemed fake as fuck at the time, so maybe he was just lucky...

If Rauth goes Light and is linked to Aronis, but not a Mason, we lynch Aronis. Otherwise, I guess we wait it out.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

So the coincidence of Rauth actually being town linked is astronomical.

I'm not sure you know how statistics work. He had at least an 11.76% chance of picking a linked person to say he was Masons with. Or looking at it from the perspective that he was always going to pick Rauth, then that's at least an 11.11% that Rauth would be linked. Improbable? Sure. But not impossible, and certainly not astronomical.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

In that case FKB who is your preferred lynch?

Given the current wagons? You.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Why? That's stupid

Oh, okay. I didn't realize it was stupid. Why didn't you just say that in the beginning?

I already talked about it before, but you are dangerous as a lurker. And Day 1 lynches are almost always random crap anyway, so I'll take a potentially dangerous lurker over all of these wagons with uncompelling cases.

-Kelvin

D'oh.

<<< D'ohn't worry, the mod's got your back. >>>

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

So the coincidence of Rauth actually being town linked is astronomical.

I'm not sure you know how statistics work. He had at least an 11.76% chance of picking a linked person to say he was Masons with. Or looking at it from the perspective that he was always going to pick Rauth, then that's at least an 11.11% that Rauth would be linked. Improbable? Sure. But not impossible, and certainly not astronomical.

-Kelvin

Semantics.

What even is the point of it.

That's a period and not a question mark because there is no point.

It's not semantics, it's an important distinction. A 1/10 chance of him accidentally making a correct claim that he and Rauth were linked is not unreasonable and so is worth considering. If it were something like 1/50, then we could talk about how ridiculously improbably it is that that happened.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

So the coincidence of Rauth actually being town linked is astronomical.

I'm not sure you know how statistics work. He had at least an 11.76% chance of picking a linked person to say he was Masons with. Or looking at it from the perspective that he was always going to pick Rauth, then that's at least an 11.11% that Rauth would be linked. Improbable? Sure. But not impossible, and certainly not astronomical.

-Kelvin

Semantics.

What even is the point of it.

That's a period and not a question mark because there is no point.

It's not semantics, it's an important distinction. A 1/10 chance of him accidentally making a correct claim that he and Rauth were linked is not unreasonable and so is worth considering. If it were something like 1/50, then we could talk about how ridiculously improbably it is that that happened.

-Kelvin

First off, guessing 1 out of 17 is a 5.8% chance cuz you can't divide 1 by 17 apparently, and there are 12 categories that Rauth could be given the set up.

So you multiply that 1 in 12 chance with Aronis picking Rauth and you have a rounded up 0.50% chance...

So that's 1 in 200 roughly

4 times your terms for it being "absurd"

I think you're looking at this wrong. Assuming that there are at least 2 linked people (I'd call that a good assumption), then every player had a 2/18 chance of being assigned a linked role. Further assuming that Aronis is telling the truth, every other player in the game therefore had a 2/17 chance of being assigned a linked role. That's the 11.76% chance I was talking about. Nothing else matter for the statistics here. It doesn't matter what else Rauth could have been, because we wouldn't be talking about this if linked roles didn't exist in the setup.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I'm at l-3 and would really like a chance to claim before y'all lynch me.

You've got 18 hours. If your claim is so good that it'll turn around the wagon on you, then hurry up and make it. If it's not that great, then don't expect anybody to give a shit. Stop stalling.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Whatever, we can at least give the claimed Cop a chance to prove himself.

UNVOTE: SnarkySnowman
VOTE: EddieFenix

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Stop fucking talkin about it. Like seriously. *Glares*

People need to pull pants back up and quit eating so many damn cookies. If you're going to insist on eating them at least clean up after yourself.

Who gives a shit? The cat is out of the bag. Stop acting like it's fucking not.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I'm going to be really busy today and not be able to post much, but I wanted to say this:

Maybe stop switching wagons so much, guys. It's true that this is role madness, but that doesn't mean we want to essentially massclaim Day 1. I'm not trying to channel MathBlade here, but we have got to stop running up wagons just to get off of them when the person claim. It just gives scum a chance to control the landscape of the game. It's Day 1, so I pretty much guarantee we're going to mislynch anyway. Stop acting like your reads are so damn accurate.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

ANNOUNCEMENT

:

Branson will no longer be a member of this hydra, effective immediately. She has decided to take an indefinite hiatus from the site. After speaking with mastina about it, RayFrost and I will continue on using this account, for the sake of ease of all players.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

I see Titus revealed the lie, which means I can start posting again. As I told people in the Light thread, I didn't want to step on any toes while that whole strategy was playing out. On top of that, it's just been a busy few days. I might start catching up tonight, though I doubt it, so probably expect me tomorrow.

-Kelvin

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Important Announcement

:

I'm going to have to replace out. When I joined this game, I was expecting to be in a hydra with Ray (and later Branson), but unfortunately, Branson left the site and Ray has become so busy that he can't dedicate any time to this game. I simply don't have the time to keep pace with such a large game and offer it the full time that it deserves.

-Kelvin

<<< Acknowledged. >>>