Game of Thrones
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In post 3209, Brandi wrote:want to respond to a thought here but it's also book relevant
thisgreen shirt thursdays-
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I getwhythey did it. Sure, they needed to establish the Harpys as a real threat, but I think more importantly, it creates an opportunity for Jorah to return. Daario left to go do stuff. Grey Worm is incapacitated, the Unsullied decimated. Selmy is dead. I don't see Missandei being a big help since she's not really an "advisor"... which means, yes, Dany will welcome the hell out of any help she can get from Jorah + Tyrion. I also wish we kinda knew what Varys was doing now since AFAIK he's still just chillin' at the brothel. But it does feel kind of cheap to have Selmy die just to open the door for Jorah to reenter the picture. The Harpys were threatening enough just by having them take out Unsullied. We didn't need to see a completely unrealistic, asinine riot/fight scene with Grey Worm & Barristan to drive that home. *shrug* I thought the fighting was really sloppy and almost made me giggle at the idea of Unsullied being great fighters.
Sansa's storyline and the stuff at the Wall are now the most interesting friggin' things on the show, and that's saying a lot considering my least favorite thing for the past 4 seasons has been "anything happening in the North". I'm very interested to see how Sansa follows LF's advice to, "Take Ramsay, make him yours". Stannis/daughter was touching. Melisandre basically confirmed some shit about Jon. Jon got a good moment or two as Lord Commander, and even Sam was tolerable. The confirmation that Mel is marching to Winterfell w/ Stannis and company is truly intriguing to me. We see them leaving the Wall next week, so I think we're headed towards a battle before the end of the season.
Spoiler: Tinfoil Stannis Theorygreen shirt thursdays-
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I'm worried about the fates of some characters moving forward.
Almost surely going to die before end of season based on released plot details/synposis/episode names:Bronn (dies rescuing Myrcella), Jorah (I think he'll die after going back to Dany by being roasted alive), Meryn Trant (Arya's kill, maybe Syrio reveal?), Mace Tyrell (killed by Trant), Tormund (Hardholme), Jon Snow (For the Watch!), Kevan Lannister (Varys isn't there to kill him, so probably Littlefinger), Pycelle (see Kevan)
Possibly dead before end of season based on purely speculation and no book stuff:Jamie (how does he get out of Dorne?), Brienne (may die during Sansa rescue), Podrick (can't see him sticking around w/out Brienne), Loras (trial by combat?), Tommen (leaving the throne empty and KL in ruins, Margaery ruined)green shirt thursdays-
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Things that I immensely liked last night:
- Did you guys forget that Ramsay is actually the worst? Because if you did, you should at least sort of remember that now. That Bolton Family Dinner was just too good... Fat Walda is my fave, and Roose/Ramsay's relationship is such a fucked up dynamic that I'm not sure who is actuallymore fucked up between the two of them. All the actors in Winterfell are killing it.
- When Brienne started talking about the Starks and the North and trying to rally people to her cause, I'll admit, I got a bit teary-eyed. Brienne is, in a weird way, the last true Stark loyalist out there. Everyone else has accepted their fate and moved on, in a way, but Brienne's fierce devotion to Catelyn is causing her to be the new beacon of House Stark. I love it.
- Stannis has gone from "Ugh, him again" to "FUCK YES LOVE STANNIS". His grammar nazism was a nice little human touch to the character. I love his looks as he watched Jon try to lead the Night's Watch -- he sees great things in him and respects him, and that alone boosts Jon's character.
- Shireen is adorable and every episode needs more Shireen/Davos scenes. Their dynamic is just the best. Davos is so great with her. IT IS SO ADORABLE.
- Jon being all Lord Commandery and trying to make a deal w/ Tormund was awesome. I loved seeing him as a real leader, even as he simultaneously loses the respect of his men. I think he has a chance at pulling this off, but nobody is going to be happy about it, and it actually makes the Wall storyline fantastic.
- VALYRIA! STONE MEN! DROGON! That whole scene was good for the pure awe it inspired.
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What sucked ass about last night:
- Let's be real: the conversion of so many beloved characters on Winterfell (Brienne/Pod, Sansa, Theon, Stannis, Shireen, Davos) can really only mean that we're going to see even more good guys get slaughtered. I have my guesses and suspicions, but who knows with this show? Maybe all of them go down.
- The Winterfell plot is obviously the main place where the show has diverged from the books, and it is all the better for it. But that is really causing the other areas that AREN'T in that plot to show signs of being ill-adapted, or at least behind the times. Winterfell is paying off five seasons by FINALLY converging a bunch of characters in the same place and it feels so rewarding. None of the other plots are even close to that and it's frustrating.
- The way the attack of the Stone Men was shot was pretty poor, IMO. We were never able to get a clear sense of 'danger' because it was cutting around so much, and it felt sort of silly. There were all of these things around, yet, Tyrion the Imp was able to slowly roll away from them and never be in danger? Even the prolonged black out after Tyrion was dragged under felt cringey.
- "Where's the boat?" "Oh, uh... we uh... lost it?" "Where the fuck are we? Why is there a beach now?" "Don't worry about it! But it certainly means that this pointless slow down tactic will stop us from actually getting to Meereen until the very end of the season! Thank god for that, you know, because we were actually on the verge of doing something with this god forsaken storyline!"
- Where the fuck is Varys?
- This was one of the better paced episodes in a long time -- and it didn't have any Dorne or King's Landing in it. That doesn't really bode well for inevitably having to loop everything back together.
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It's not that it's alien. It's that the point of separating them and mixing pairings is to allow character growth, and never paying off those moments by allowing characters to reunite or interact is pretty shitty. To me, the sloppier writing is setting up all these grand stories and chess pieces to move into place, then having the amount of plotlines get too unwieldy and wind up being forced to never pay off certain moments or just keep characters separate forever.
There's a bigger story being told, here -- one that D&D obviously know about and are building towards. Little character moments are fine, and the first 4 seasons being basically nothing but moving pieces around and setting up later payoffs is fine. But eventually, things need to pay off... and we're heading that way, now. If these moments were never paid off, it'd be bad writing, because that'd just mean there was no plan or rhyme or reason to the characters and instead it's just writing whatever the hell comes to mind with no carefully crafted arc in mind.
I sincerely worry that GRRM won't be able to pay off all the stories that need to be capped in the books. The books have SIGNIFICANTLY more minor/major characters involved and the knowledge that a huge swath of them will wind up being irrelevant or just get killed off and have no further purpose makes spending time reading them a drudge. I like the fact that they've condensed a huge portion of the Essos plot into Jorah. I like the fact that they cut the entire Ironborn storyline, because if the Dorne storyline is any indication, the narrative didn't have room to handle it. The show is streamlining the overall narrative because it's a show and it doesn't have real estate to waste on shit that won't matter, whereas the bookscan. The books can spend hundreds of pages on scenery and table setting and getting to know useless characters, because it can be whatever it wants to be. The show can only be 10 episodes, and as it accelerates towards its finale, it has to start paying off these moments, or viewers won't be satisfied.
I think, in general, most book readers I see are nitpicking and bitching about things in the show thatreallyaren't worth it. The show was always going to diverge from the books -- and it is better for it.green shirt thursdays-
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In post 3285, Venmar wrote:In post 3274, hasdgfas wrote:The show is not "A Song of Ice and Fire by George R R Martin", the show is "Game of Thrones by David Benioff and D.B. Weiss, based off of A Song of Ice and Fire by George R R Martin". At this point, I've accepted that they're different canons and not the same story anymore.
I've accepted that by now as well, but at this point I am worried objectively I think. I don't like the changes made as a book reader, and as a normal show watcher, the story has gotten boring by this point. A lot of the glamour that was the Starks, Joffrey, Tywin, and company are gone, and we're left with a broken dornish plot, a clumped bunch of characters at Winterfell, and Jaime. I will keep watching because I still love the show and story, but I think it's going a bit downhill.
I remember having this reaction after The Red Wedding. "Ughhh, nobody is left to root for, I don't care about any of the remaining characters!"
To an extent, that's still true. I was thinking in the shower today, "Would I freak the hell out about most of the remaining characters dying?" and the answer was objectively "no". I sort of glazed over Selmy's thing last week. I don't think the show has the balls to pull off anything as big as the Red Wedding. Who is left to care about? I mean, I care about Tyrion's journey... and Sansa. That's about it. I guess Arya becoming a badass little assassin is cool, but unfortunately it runs into the issue of being completely unrelated to anything else happening in the show.
That's always been my problem with Essos stuff, actually. I get how, in theory, it could be related. But every time the books went to Essos I had to struggle through it, because I just don't CARE about the intercity politics of the free cities, or Dany's anti-slavery mission, or Arya leaving Westeros, or any of that. Tyrion being transplanted to Essos makes it more tolerable, simply because he was such a key figure in Westerosi politics... but overall, most of the Essos stuff feels like a separate book/series of books. It's also why I was never particularly invested in the Ironborn or Dornish plotlines, because they're sort of straddling the line between relevant and not relevant.green shirt thursdays-
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Destabilizing the realm gives him a chance to climb to power; especially when he's the guy with all the solutions.
Due to the realm destabilizing and his help with the Lannister family, he was given lordship of Harrenhaal -- that gives him a foothold in the Riverlands. He was able to arrange a bethrothal to Lysa Arryn, giving him the Eyrie. He arranged for Joffrey's death so he could smuggle Sansa out of King's Landing and marry her off to the Boltons -- giving him an alliance with the Wardens of the North. Sansa is a trump card for him. No matter who controls Winterfell, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, and Sansa will guarantee him power.
Through his destabilization, he has managed to gain control over half of the continent. He also has an alliance with the Tyrells, as they helped poison Joffrey, giving him potential power in the South. He still has an uneasy alliance with the Lannisters, giving him an alliance in the West. As of right now he has no control over Dorne. I would imagine his reemergence in King's Landing is related to the Lannisters v Tyrell struggle going on. I'm actually quite curious to see how he plans to gain a foothold in the South/West and start taking over the rest of the continent... I would imagine Lannisters/Tyrells going at each other isn't by accident.green shirt thursdays-
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Ned never liked him, and as long as Ned was in the picture, he would never be able to get close to Catelyn. His betrayal of Ned was an attempt to endear himself to the Lannisters while also having an opportunity to swoop in on Catelyn... but nobody planned for Joff to execute Ned. That was the wildcard, the variable nobody planned for, and it lead to a war, which lead to RW, which lead to the love of his life dying.
LF is making plays then reacting. He didn't have everything planned out. But his original reason for the Stark betrayal probably just comes down to Cat.green shirt thursdays-
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In post 3358, Iecerint wrote:It looks like Sam's plotlineabout going to the Citadelis probably cut.
I doubt it?
They've been hinting at it pretty damn hard.green shirt thursdays-
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In post 3371, hasdgfas wrote:In post 3367, xRECKONERx wrote:no their decision to have ramsay rape sansa is fucking BULLSHIT
Not really. It's well within his character, and somehow less messed-up than what happened in the books.
I expect our Sansa payoff is going to be in the next 1-2 episodes. She's clearly going to be doing something.
who the fuck cares if it's within his character?
like really? is that our justification for showing rape on screen now?
That scene did NOTHING. We knew Ramsay was a psychopath. We knew Sansa was in a bad spot and scared for her life. We knew Reek regrets what he did and is remorseful. We knew all that.
That scene did fucking NOTHING. Nothing. It didn't advance anything. It was just gratuitous rape for the sake of it.green shirt thursdays-
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idk i feel like khal/dany was less bad because each time displayed the changing power dynamic between the two of them (culminating in the really powerful scene where drogo let go and dany took over during sex)
i still dont feel that, after it has been smacked into our heads a thousand times RAMSAY IS HORRIBLE and SANSA IS BEING USED BY PEOPLE, having her get raped was necessary to any sort of story. we already WANT to see Sansa escape. it does literally nothinggreen shirt thursdays-
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In post 3382, Iecerint wrote:Theon needs character development if he's going to do anything novel.
If he had intervened in that scene, for example, it would have broken my suspension of disbelief.
Yes, having Theon be reawoken by seeing a Stark, and feeling remorse for what he did... that wouldn't be enough. Clearly, watching his childhood friend get raped is the only way to advance HIS story! Let's make sure Sansa's agency and her RAPE at the hands of Ramsay serve Theon's story!green shirt thursdays-
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In post 3392, Rhinox wrote:In post 3385, xRECKONERx wrote:In post 3382, Iecerint wrote:Theon needs character development if he's going to do anything novel.
If he had intervened in that scene, for example, it would have broken my suspension of disbelief.
Yes, having Theon be reawoken by seeing a Stark, and feeling remorse for what he did... that wouldn't be enough.Clearly, watching his childhood friend get raped is the only way to advance HIS story! Let's make sure Sansa's agency and her RAPE at the hands of Ramsay serve Theon's story!
But in the booksTheon's story WAS advanced because of pretty much this same scenario, except it was Jeyne Poole instead of Sansa.So Theon's story at this point is still going pretty much by the book.
And I'll say this, which I'm sure I've said before: setting the bar for the show as "less misogynistic and shitty to women as GRRM's source material" is not exactly a super high bar to clear. The show has deviated plenty of times, there's absolutely no reason they had to leave the rape in the show, especially when that entire storyline has changed. They threw out EVERYTHING else and rewrote the Winterfell arc, but no, let's keep the rape, because... we need to develop a weaker male character!green shirt thursdays-
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In post 3400, AngryPidgeon wrote:In post 3397, hasdgfas wrote:I'm unconvinced it's going to serve just Theon's character development. I think it'll serve Sansa's as well as Theon's. I expect to see Sansa take control now that she realizes the extent of her situation. Super lazy writing to use rape for that. Incredibly lazy, especially after the scene with Myranda, which I thought was great.
Ya, I agree. Kind of bullshit to speculate that the scene was purely for the benefit of developing Theon's character. Maybe this all could have been done better, but I thought the tension was also in part a test of Sansa's new found resolve.
The entirety of the rape was just Sophie Turner's voice played over THEON'S REACTIONgreen shirt thursdays-
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In post 3405, hasdgfas wrote:
Disagree with this decision, but respect it. There's a difference between promotion and criticism/coverage. This made me think they have more to say and are just going to ignore it, which I think is a disservice, since this could lead to good discussion. Covering something, discussing it, paying attention to it is not the same as promoting them or rewarding them.
At some point, when your morals don't line up with it, I get the decision. Continuing to discuss it is shoveling more attention and stuff in the way of the show. And I also get a sense of throwing your hands up and saying "okay fuck it" because all the hubub last year over the Jaime/Cersei rape did absolutely nothing.green shirt thursdays-
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"Three of the show’s main female characters have now been raped, and yet the show has struggled to make this a part of their character history—their rapes may function as narrative climaxes, but the rising action has never been particularly well-drawn, and the denouement has been non-existent."green shirt thursdays-
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Man, you know how they could've completely fixed that rape scene?
Have the Myranda/Sansa bathing scene happen immediately afterwards, instead of before.
That way, we see the horrific thing, we see her go through it... then we see this scene with Myranda, where she tries to torment her, and in the face of what has happened, we see Sansa stand strong and say "nothing can hurt me". BOOM. Get fucked owned.
Instead, we just remove all the badass agency she had in the bathing scene with a rape.
I'm just going to pretend it was edited the wrong way now.green shirt thursdays-
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also can we please just nuke the Sand Snakes from the story? Fuck
The only thing they got right about Dorne was Doran. Everything else down there is awful. Obara Sand makes me want to forcibly remove my ears when she speaks.
Doran's fine. Trystane is actually fine too, though I think it was super jarring to have Myrcella get her first line of the season more than halfway through the season. I don't really know anything about her, and I don't care. I just don't care about Dorne at all. I get they were like, 'OH SHIT PEOPLE LOVE OBERYN, MUST GO TO DORNE' but I can't see how any of this is relevant now. Could've just substituted it with only Doran, or hell, even send Varys to Doran. This "Secret Agent Jaime" shit is awful, the Sand Snakes are awful, Dorne is terrible.green shirt thursdays-
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the scooby doo style ZOINKS WE RAN INTO EACH OTHER shit was terrible
Sansa storyline is EARNING its convergence, that one was just bullshit
also: Jaime can beat one of them in battle one-handed, but Bronn can't deal with two of these little shits?
especially when the dagger one fights like THIS
come the fuck ongreen shirt thursdays-
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*screaming internally*
Coldplay is set to perform a special musical written by the band featuring Game of Thrones castmembers Kit Harington, Peter Dinklage, Iwan Rheon, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, Emilia Clarke, Thomas Brodie-Sangster, Mark Addy, John Bradley, Rose Leslie, Alfie Allen, Charlotte Hope and Dame Diana Rigg.green shirt thursdays-
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The rate of rape and knowing people who have been raped is much higher. There's also the fact that rape is still a difficult issue for our dumbass society to grasp. We all understand how awful and terrible those other things like torture and murder are. If someone is murdered, they can't really have a reaction to a brutal murder scene on television. If someone has been raped, they can and will react very poorly to seeing something like that on television. It's also an issue of the fact that rape CAN be used as an effective narrative moment and can help characters, but Game of Thrones has yet to prove they can handle it well.
The way they've used rape so far just shows they have no grasp on what it actually is.
(Case in point -- they made Sansa's rape all about Theon; they had Gilly suddenly get SO WET AND HORNY that Sam saved her from rape, when in reality, no woman is going to be like "Almost raped? LET'S FUCK")green shirt thursdays-
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The cinematography, set design, sound/audio design, costuming, writing, pacing, choreography...everything just fucking NAILED IT that episode.
10/10. The best episode in the show's history. Literally every scene knocked it out of the park.
- Lena Headey is a goddess and watching her so distraught and crazy was amazing. Plus, Qyburn is still creepy, and watching Cersei break as she realized what she's done to her son was just beautiful.
- Arya/Faceless Men is finally going somewhere and that's just badass.
- TYRION AND DANY WAS EVERYTHING I WANTED AND MORE.
- Hardhome, man. Hardhome. Best battle of the series. I can't think of a better "zombie" esque scene, even in cinema. Just incredibly well done. Lore-wise, it's amazing to see what is going on w/ the army/command. Valyrian Steel! Wight children! NK raising the dead! Horsement! Jesus fuck I'm still freaking outgreen shirt thursdays-
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In post 3509, chamber wrote:I couldn't disagree more about the battle scene. I thought it was shot poorly, had bad effects, and worst of all, was incredibly grey and dull. The snowstorm effect was clearly used as a means of covering for the lack of budget, instead counting on everything being wispy and white washed.
The snowstorm effect was used because...that's the weather up far north. That's the weather the undead army brings along with it. See: Sam running into the army in the earlier season.
There were so many extras. Every scene felt full. There was always shit happening in the background.
The effects here were lightyears better than the effects during the Children of the Forest scene at the end of Season 4. Like, I mean, other than putting every actor in zombie makeup and having absolutely no skeletons or anything, I don't know how else they could've done it better. I mean...
That looks as believable as I can believe the Night's King to look. I thought the effects were just fantastic. I can't tell there's any CGI or effects in that scene.
This scene alone is the exact reason why the earlier scenes were so disappointing (specifically battles in Dorne/Mereen), because they were dumping so much budget into this.green shirt thursdays-
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xRECKONERx GD is my Best Man
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xRECKONERx GD is my Best Man
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xRECKONERx GD is my Best Man
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In post 3532, Iecerint wrote:I'm surprised that no one has complained about the wildling mom being weak to children re: recent discussions about portrayals of women in ADWD.
We actually commented on that last night when it was over, but I'm more willing to forgive that, especially given that she was actually a mother and her love for her child was established earlier in the episode.green shirt thursdays-
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xRECKONERx GD is my Best Man
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xRECKONERx GD is my Best Man
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In post 3570, Iecerint wrote:I thought this was a really good episode. ^^
I've never seen such a blatant character assassination. They did the Shireen thing purely for shock value. They literally spent the whole season building up Stannis as a good guy/character, only to assassinate it... I'm assuming they did this so people wouldn't feel as bad when Brienne McDoNoWrong chops off his head?
I don't know. They just ruined the Battle of Winterfell for me. I want neither side to win.
Go Night's King!green shirt thursdays-
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xRECKONERx GD is my Best Man
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It's not. It's purely speculation based on the fact they've hammed up Brienne's oaths to both Cat & Renly all season, plus the fact that there's a war happening at Winterfell, where Brienne will CONVENIENTLY be located between her oath to Cat (Sansa's rescue) and her oath to Renly (killing Stannis).green shirt thursdays-
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Ramsay, trudging shirtless, with abs glistening from the snow, took a band of 20 goofballs and set fire to stockpiles in the Mannis camp! That dastardlyJokerRamsay got away with it again! NEXT TIME, BOLTON, NEXT TIME!
Are we supposed to believe that Stannis, the tactician, left his very small stockpile of food and supplies on the very edge of camp with light security?
How did 20 Bolton men get past an army that size and coordinate to set simultaneous fires with nobody noticing?
It's fucking comical at this point how far off the mark the writers have been. D&D claiming that GRRM told them to do it just illustrates further how much they don't get it. In the books, there's almost NO WAY Stannis is going to be involved in Shireen's burning... but in the show, they thought it would be LIKE TOTALLY SHOCKING and they managed to completely assassinate Stannis' character beyond redemption.
Stannis could've turned and fled back to the Wall. Davos literally fucking says that in the episode, and Stannis is like, "Nah we can't because reasons" and then sends Davos back to the Wall to ask for men. So... rather than go back to the Wall, regroup, wait out the Winter, or get more troops, or to accumulate more supplies, Stannis decides to fucking BURN HIS DAUGHTER. It was completely out of character for him. And fuck off with the "Oh, he killed Renly" thing, because as much as we all loved Renly, he was a usurper to Stannis' rightful claim on the throne. He gave Renly the chance to bend the knee and get rid of his claim, and Renly didn't do it. The showrunners have no idea how to write Stannis and have butchered his character beyond all repair for DAT EPISODE 9 SHOCK VALUE. Oh no, sellswords and mercenaries will starve! You know, unless we go back to the Wall, and also, who the fuck would really care about a bunch of non-bannermen dying/starving when your daughter is the trade you have to make?
I literally would rather see Roose fucking Bolton win the battle over Stannis. Roose is a sociopath, with a psychopath for a son... sure. But he at least cares about his son. "Don't make me rue the day I raped your mother" is the Bolton equivalent of "I love you, son". Stannis, in the show, is just a fucking greedy, power-hungry psychopath who murdered his own daughter so he wouldn't have to swallow his pride and wait for a few months or years.
If I was writing this show, I'd have the Battle of Ice go down, Stannis wins and strikes down Ramsay and Roose, Brienne shows up and fucking guts him like a pig, Davos (as the King's Hand) takes over Winterfell and cuts off Melisandre's goddamn head. It won't happen, though, because the writer's have no idea what good storytelling looks like anymore, and instead are trying to ride the high of "OMG WTF" shock value that made the world lose its collective minds with Red Wedding & Ned's beheading & Renly's stabbing & Only Cat & Purple Wedding. They think the shock value is what's important, and have completely failed to realize that all of those moments were EARNED by the story. Stannis burning Shireen was 100% not earned by the story in any way and was purely a contrived bit of shocking television to get the Twitters-a-flappin'.green shirt thursdays-
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