Micro 66 - Robo's F11 (Game Over)

[Violet]

Hey party people!

I'm going to be spending the next hour or so intensely reading over the game. So in the mean time, if you have any questions for the slot I replaced, please ask them, and I'll get to them after I give my evaluation.

Also, Tracey's super obvscum, you all should have lynched her on page 1.

[Violet]

1. Nickname you'd like to go by?

Violet.

2. Sex? Age?

Maybe. I'm legal in most countries.

3. Times you'll likely be able to post? Or not post.

2-8pm Central Standardd) throughout the week. I won't post in the early morning or late night.

4. Thoughts on meta?

It's only useful if it's consistent, but it can also be faked.

5. Thoughts on reaction fishing?

Usually pro-town, but scum can use it to role-fish.

6. How do you feel about walls? Do you make them?

There's no point in turning a single sentence of information into a paragraph. If I write a wall, it's because I have a lot of information to share.

7. Are you scum?

No, but you are

Klick is town.

I made that statement because there's often one or more people who tend to state their dislike for RQS or the lack of benefits from it - those people tend to be the experienced players (note: I only really play in newbie games, so those are the games I'll be referring to).

I can't imagine why being experienced would make you auto-town for disliking RQS (I've personally seen many experienced players use RQS to quickly evaluate the playerbase without much effort), nor why you would evaluate Klick as town after only a couple fluff posts, when disliking RQS is most likely just a simple preference.

After reading most of the other thread, it seems like you are unnecessarily calling Klick town, and doing so repeatedly. Your only defense of this is:

I have Klick as a town read because what he's saying is townish.

Which doesn't give any real reason and is extremely vague, especially considering that Klick hasn't really posted much in the way of substance. You two are very buddy-buddy.

VOTE: Mit Time to add some pressure!

Stating that you're adding pressure eliminates the pressure. You're also vote-hopping, and the only real read I can pick out that you've had is

. . .

I have a strong town-read on Mil and Commie. Both have contributed a lot of good information and stand individually - I can't see them having connections to anyone thus far.

I see a very likely Tracey-Klick team, and it's so obvious it kind of hurts.

I have a neutral read on everyone else. I'd love to see more discussion, but until that happens, my reads are going to be incomplete.

Two pages left to go, but I am going to dinner and will post the rest of my evaluation later tonight. I feel uncomfortable voting without having the entire picture of what has happened thus far. But I imagine I'll vote Tracey.

PEDIT:

Why are you going to answer questions that are based on what a predecessor did?

I wasn't planning on it, as that's impossible. If you had any questions about specific things that have happened, or my thoughts on any particular player, things in that vein, that's what I would answer.

[Violet]

Stating that you're adding pressure eliminates the pressure. You're also vote-hopping, and the only real read I can pick out that you've had is

She hasn't had a consistent read, I thought she had. My apologies.

[Violet]

I'd like to read your thoughts on Mala and PMyst.

Mala:

She seems very "legit" in that she doesn't appear to be deceptive in her language, and seems to be writing straight from her head. She asks a lot of pressing questions and generally promotes the exchange of information on topics that matter: Policy lynching (which is a horrible idea), what scum might do in any given situation, and having people get their thoughts out so we know everyone's positions. With 0 being neutral and 10 being town, I'd say she's 2.5/10. So leaning town.

PMyst:

He's done nothing but lurk. Null. Since he knows his meta, any meta argument goes straight out the window. I will judge him on his actions and his motivation for them.

Cheery too, but he can wait for later.

Why would I want to wait?

Also, since he was your slot, what are your thoughts on Riggs?

I replaced Taz, not Riggs. Riggs is just V/LA.

I really didn't much care for his play, especially when he semi-advocated a policy lynch. He appeared to be disinterested in the game and didn't put much effort in. I plan to change that.

Another post incoming.

[Violet]

Is it weird to buddy people you think are town?

Actually, yes. When you're town, you're never sure of the people around you, and there's always a hint of doubt. When you're scum, you know who's town and who's not, and so you feel safer and more willing to buddy people.

Klick is fighting pretty hard against your buddying, which means he's very concerned about what people think of him, but especially with regards to you. Wonder why that is?

Stating pressure does not eliminate pressure. Just because I'm pressuring them doesn't mean I'm not willing to lynch them.

It completely eliminates pressure. When you put pressure on someone, it's supposed to make them feel as if they need to be active. Stating pressure is cute, but it's like saying



without any

real

pressure to post.

As for vote hopping, yes I was. Is that scummy? I have clear reads. Read further, and you shall see them.

Vote hopping is scummy in this case because it's without much substance to back it up - it looks like you're just accusing everyone of being scummy to take pressure off you. I still don't see your clear reads.

I assume you're scratching out "real read" with "consistent read". In which case: does not being consistent in my reads up to page ten make me scummy?

A "real read" in my mind is one that you've held strongly enough that it has not changed in a while, or at least not without something significant happening. It doesn't have to be consistent, but it usually is. I went through your ISO and counted - you have not had a single read that's lasted a significant amount of time, you're hopping all over the place with your votes, and you have at the very least heavily

implied

that every single player in the game is scum,

except Klick

.

. . .

With regards to Klick's #195: I remain unconvinced that you actually believe Tracey is scum. Most of your content seems forced and ingenuine, or just plain wrong, like how you call Tracey out for her #36 and imply it's scummy, when that post was half questions (which aren't reasoning by definition) and half discussion of RQS (which was only tangentially related to the game). Mala on pages 2-3 wasn't really doing much of anything, much less discouraging scum-hunting. It appears that was entirely fabricated to add "content". There's other allegations as to Tracey's alignment, but it's really weak (Her #53 doesn't immediately shout "I'M PRO-TOWN!" Is that

seriously

a reason to think she's scum?). In short the entire post is really just bad, and you seem more concerned about what people think between you and Tracey than you are about getting information out there so that the town can evaluate it.

My stance on Tracey hasn't changed at all, and my scumread on Klick has redoubled.

VOTE: Tracey

[Violet]

Woah, responding to walls with walls. This

is

going to be fun. I haven't had this much fun in

ages

.

Violet knows...

She

's just so intuitive about this sort of stuff!

Feminine intuition. Gotta love it.

Okay, so why is she closer to null then?

The game's been going on a little over a week, and she hasn't pulled a Tracey and walled the crap out of the place. For one, there is simply not enough information to make more than a vague guess, for two, you have to pull all the stops to get a full 10 on my scale (mod-confirmed)

I also notice that in all of your reads you throw out general comments such as, "His posting was good. He said a lot of townish things and asked a lot of townish questions.

I do that because otherwise I want to delve into petty specifics, when honestly they are not directly important - I was asked what I thought, not why I thought it. But if you'd like reasons

why

, by all means, I'll share.

Mala's post #82 calls Mit out on potentially scummy behavior (waiting for wagons to vote) and then directs him to be more active. And actually, that's a great example of a pressure vote - because had he not responded, that would be a reason for Mala (or anyone, really) to be all up in his business. She then follows up in #174 with a hearty explanation as to her thoughts. But though she has her town points, she also doesn't have enough of those moments for me to think her solidly town, infact there are a lot of posts such as #51 and #108 and #169 which are all short and just kind of messing around, they don't do much, they're hardly worth mentioning. But the relatively significant amount of those leads me to perceive her less as town and more neutral - they don't do anything either way, but the amount of them dilutes her pro-town moments. It's hard to articulate and source that when I'm just giving my general thoughts about her.

Also, how do you feel about my objection against her reaction to the policy lynch?

You're grasping at straws and distracting the town from real issues. Policy lynching is a meta thing, some people are more comfortable with it than others. You tried to turn her individual policy of being semi-ok with it into scumminess.

Did I actually luck out enough to get to play a game with you where you're scum?

Nope. But you

did

get lucky enough to play with me during shark week. I'm due for it in like three days =/

PEDIT: I see your wall, Tracey. And I refuse to read it and then modify my post. I spent a good amount of time on this.

[Violet]

Vi

Just so you know, Vi is an entirely different person, and VI is something I most certainly am not. Also,

Violet's

most natural shortening is Vio, and there's absolutely no reason to truncate it further. I might as well call you Tr for all the sense it makes.

[Violet]

I apologize for not making many posts the last couple days, I've been caught up with real life. I should have a lot of time tonight and I plan to use it to the fullest extent.

However

, I must first take a short time to bring up the fact that nobody but Tracey has responded to my thoughts. I find it very difficult to continue discussion and continue towards a potential lynch when I have a single person to respond to.

You have no right to complain about lack of activity if you are part of the

problem

and refuse to be part of the

solution

.

[Violet]

Is walling scummy?

I never said it was, and if I did, I should check myself on that because that's what I've been doing. You post walls, so I have a lot of words and thoughts to go over when determining

your

alignment, and as such I have a better picture of it. Mala is not you, I have a lot less material and there's quite a bit of uncertainty.

This makes me feel better about you. Do this more often.

Damn lot of work for one thought.

Wat. Semi-okay with it?

I didn't say she liked it. She said she wasn't willing to participate and dislikes them. That doesn't mean she's 100% against them, and the language suggested that she'd be somewhat ok with it if it were in the right situation and everyone else wanted it.

Twisting what I say to push your scum agenda just exposes you more.

Tell me how I grasped at straws. How have I distracted the town?

Specific examples

.

That phrase literally can't be used without context, and it was right there when I said it. But since you don't remember, here's your post responding to Mala about policy lynches (the first one was here but I'm pretty sure you weren't talking about that one).

Spoiler: Post in question

My personal take on policy lynches is that they can be discouraging, but also they might be in the benefit of scum. Scum can use it to their advantage and try to direct that in their favor.

And this is why I didn't like your wishy-washiness towards the policy lynch. You knew scum could take advantage of a policy lynch... And yet you didn't try to crush Taz's discussion about policy lynches? What bothers me even more is:

Taz has moved to a low scum read because of attempting to want to PL PM. I think it's anti town, but also scummy. My main answer if you don't like someone's play style either you don't join or you find a way to play nice without wanting to PL.

Why did you not think this was scummy when he first asked about it?

You took Mala's general policy on policy lynches and flipped it around into something you implied was scummy. Not only did you misrepresent what happened, but you also completely ignored her argument and squashed the discussion into oblivion. Here's the kicker: Her point was against

me

. You attacked her for addressing issues she had with what

my slot

did.

It couldn't be any clearer to me that you don't actually care about who is scum and who's not.

@Violet: When you read through the game, did you quote stuff as you went, or did you come back to the quotes after you read?

I don't really know what you're asking. I read through the game taking mental notes (I don't write them down, but I generally have a good memory) and then if I need to bring it up I'll come back to it. 95% of the time, I'm right about what I remember and can just go back and quote it.

---

I feel like it would be worthwhile to mention that you haven't pointed out a

single thing

I've done that is scummy, and are just voting me because I called you scum. Town would be clear-headed enough to realize that just because someone is against you does not mean they differ in alignment. Why you believe Mala is scum is also unclear, but to somewhat of a lesser extent. I have not seen your case against her. Infact, you have not made cases - you have pointed fingers and repeatedly asked people to sheep you.

[Violet]

Is walling scummy?

I never said it was, and if I did, I should check myself on that because that's what I've been doing. You post walls, so I have a lot of words and thoughts to go over when determining

your

alignment, and as such I have a better picture of it. Mala is not you, I have a lot less material and there's quite a bit of uncertainty.

This makes me feel better about you. Do this more often.

Damn lot of work for one thought.

Wat. Semi-okay with it?

I didn't say she liked it. She said she wasn't willing to participate and dislikes them. That doesn't mean she's 100% against them, and the language suggested that she'd be somewhat ok with it if it were in the right situation and everyone else wanted it.

Twisting what I say to push your scum agenda just exposes you more.

Tell me how I grasped at straws. How have I distracted the town?

Specific examples

.

That phrase literally can't be used without context, and it was right there when I said it. But since you don't remember, here's your post responding to Mala about policy lynches (the first one was here but I'm pretty sure you weren't talking about that one).

Spoiler: Post in question

My personal take on policy lynches is that they can be discouraging, but also they might be in the benefit of scum. Scum can use it to their advantage and try to direct that in their favor.

And this is why I didn't like your wishy-washiness towards the policy lynch. You knew scum could take advantage of a policy lynch... And yet you didn't try to crush Taz's discussion about policy lynches? What bothers me even more is:

Taz has moved to a low scum read because of attempting to want to PL PM. I think it's anti town, but also scummy. My main answer if you don't like someone's play style either you don't join or you find a way to play nice without wanting to PL.

Why did you not think this was scummy when he first asked about it?

You took Mala's general policy on policy lynches and flipped it around into something you implied was scummy. Not only did you misrepresent what happened, but you also completely ignored her argument and squashed the discussion into oblivion. Here's the kicker: Her point was against

me

. You attacked her for addressing issues she had with what

my slot

did.

It couldn't be any clearer to me that you don't actually care about who is scum and who's not.

@Violet: When you read through the game, did you quote stuff as you went, or did you come back to the quotes after you read?

I don't really know what you're asking. I read through the game taking mental notes (I don't write them down, but I generally have a good memory) and then if I need to bring it up I'll come back to it. 95% of the time, I'm right about what I remember and can just go back and quote it.

---

I feel like it would be worthwhile to mention that you haven't pointed out a

single thing

I've done that is scummy, and are just voting me because I called you scum. Town would be clear-headed enough to realize that just because someone is against you does not mean they differ in alignment. Why you believe Mala is scum is also unclear, but to somewhat of a lesser extent. I have not seen your case against her. Infact, you have not made cases - you have pointed fingers and repeatedly asked people to sheep you.

[Violet]

@Robocopter:

I double-clicked the submit button. You can feel free to delete one of those, they're exactly the same post.

[Violet]

Vi

Thank god you're not starting a trend. Stop it.

I agree that the tone of her posts imply that she wasn't 100% against them, but her words certainly did. This sort of contradiction seems scummy.

...

Her words very clearly state she dislikes policy lynches. What the italicized parts

do

represent, however, is a reluctance to be concrete.

The only reason I can think of why that would be present in these particular posts is because she's scum who doesn't want to remove the opportunity of a possible mislynch, but also doesn't want to go against something that she's maybe been firm about in her past town games.

That's a really weak argument for Mala-scum, and it doesn't hold any water. Which is exactly what I meant by grasping at straws - there is no argument there, and you're trying to paint it like there is. And obviously you read the post, so you couldn't have missed this:

Taz has moved to a low scum read because of attempting to want to PL PM.

I think it's anti town, but also scummy

. My main answer if you don't like someone's play style either you don't join or you find a way to play nice without wanting to PL.

She can't say someone's scummy and then turn around and agree with a policy lynch, that would be suicide.

Especially

since she already said "

There's only two players who I will attempt to PL and they are

not in this game.

"

How could you possibly think she was leaving herself open to go ahead with a policy lynch? I will admit, I was wrong that she was semi-ok with it - she's dead-set against it. But that's even scummier because

you knew

she wouldn't dare push a policy lynch this game and

still

used it against her.

I have not twisted anything you have said. You know I very much dislike it when people misrepresent me; that is what you are doing. I get the feeling you're trying to provoke me given the tone and words you've been using in your posts. This is one of the factors aiding in me thinking you are scum.

Provoking people is generally pro-town. We get to see more of your unadulterated emotion and can evaluate how you cracked under pressure. For instance, instead of denying everything, you're turning the tables. Which is scummy. But I do know you in real life, and you tend to think anyone that doesn't think your way is trying to provoke you. Which makes it less scummy, and more just your meta.

---

Spoiler: For reference and ease of read, this is my post

You took Mala's general policy on policy lynches and

flipped it around into something you implied was scummy.

Not only did you misrepresent what happened

but you also

completely ignored her argument

and

squashed the discussion into oblivion.

Here's the kicker:

Her point was against

me

. You attacked her for addressing issues she had with what

my slot

did.

Bold/Italic: I didn't flip it into anything, and you have yet to explain how I have misrepresented her original statement aside from saying she was "semi-okay with it" and "the language suggested that she'd be somewhat ok with it if it were in the right situation and everyone else wanted it." Now that I have showed you in a very clear way (bolding and italicizing specific words), explain to me how the hell I have misrepresented her posts.

I already stated above that I was wrong about her policy, there was a post I overlooked, but that doesn't really matter because you still misrepresented her posts. Again, referring to above: "

you knew

she wouldn't dare push a policy lynch this game and

still

used it against her."

Underline:

Where

did I ignore her argument? And what exactly was that argument? That she doesn't like policy lynches?

Did you seriously forget the post we're talking about? It's the only argument we could have been discussing. Her argument for Taz as scum for wanting a policy lynch. I can't show you where you ignored it any more than I can show you where uranium

isn't

. If you didn't ignore it, the burden of proof is on you to show us where you addressed it. But I remember where the conversation happened, and I know you didn't address it, because your response was "Why did you not think this was scummy when he first asked about it?" Which brings us full circle. You attacked her for scumhunting, and that's

scummy

.

I don't look for associative tells on

day one

. I might point them out if they're ridiculously obvious, but I am not hunting for both of the scum. I'm only hunting for one.

Associative tells are always helpful, in my opinion. Even on day one, you naturally act different around someone if you're partnered with them. That is an extremely significant part of the game that you can't just ignore.

Why does it matter that I was attacking issues she had with your slot?

Obviously smug humor is lost in text. I found it humorous and ironic, that's all.

Did you read through and

then

quote the information you were going to use in your initial catch-up post, or did you come back to it after you had completed reading over the game?

Honestly I'm not sure why it matters so much to you, but I quoted things of particular interest while I was reading, and then commented on them accordingly after I had read to near-completion.

I don't need the person I think is scum to tell me that what they're doing is not scummy. I obviously don't trust your thoughts on the matter.

That's a cancerous attitude to have. I'm not scum, and I can advocate against my own lynch if I damn well please. You're also doing a terrible job of actually convincing anyone to think the same way, which is what I meant by it in the first place, along with the fact that you don't seem to be making cases or scumhunting as much as pointing fingers. Infact,

that's one of the more prevalent issues I have with seeing you as town

.

That aside, you are right. I have not made cases. I have pointed fingers and repeatedly asked people to sheep me. I don't make cases anytime I think someone's scum. That would be ridiculous. I make cases when it's getting near deadline and a lynch is likely, I make cases to derail wagons I disagree with, and I make cases when they are asked for.

If you plan on convincing anyone to agree with your opinion, I suggest you start making cases. Derailing cases doesn't make any sense - you're just shutting down the flow of information to be controlling and self-righteous. Town leading town is blind leading blind, only scum serve to gain from control.

I am not, however, only voting you because OMGUS. You can tell in my post where I said that that I was joking. You sure did opportunistically latch onto that, though, didn't you? I hear discrediting an opponent can be a good strategy as scum. I think you still need to work on it a bit, though.

You discredit yourself with your "logic". You don't need any of my help.

---

GNR? Cheery Dog? Commie? Mit?

GNR: I don't know what he was trying to accomplish with his first post, but I don't really trust it. There is a possibility he could be trying to earn early town points by feigning PR-protection while simultaneously limiting town information by keeping the Jailkeeper from us. Even stranger is the fact that Jailkeepers are usually on the scum side, and there is none in this game. But that's all speculative BS. I'd really love to comment on something other than his first post, or comment on something concrete that he's done or said, but he's been very distant and lurky this game, and his ISO is bare. No read.

Cheery Dog: Half of his posts are asking irrelevant questions and the other half is stating irrelevant or vague thoughts. He strikes me as extremely active-lurky, and honestly before I had looked into him, I felt bad for not having a read (as if it were my fault for not paying attention to him). Sure enough, it's not my fault, he's just done a very good job of blending in without contributing to the conversation. Null-scum. Active-lurkers give me really vibes.

Commie: Honestly I don't know why I had such a strong town-read on him before. The only strongly-town post he's made is his ISO#5. His question I had wanted to ask myself (and we still don't have the answer to), and the statement was on-point, so much so that the post stuck in my head as all I remembered from him. His other posts haven't done much to change that because once again there hasn't been many (that seems to be a recurring theme this game). I'd say he's town with a lot of real-life obligations and he probably shouldn't have signed up for a mafia game.

Mit: His early posts (#16, #33) right off the bat shows activity and eagerness to scumhunt. #37 gives a comprehensive and complete answer that also speculates scumminess based on past meta, and was good for overall discussion (this was on page 2, where there wasn't even that much information to go on, and he was trying to spark discussion). Then you have a lot of posts like #197 where he points out bad reasoning, especially where it would be scummy bad reasoning. He's started to trail off and fade into lurking, and given the vast amount of banter between Tracey and I, you'd think he could give a little bit of his thoughts. Recent behavior definitely detracts from my town read on him. But still mostly town.

[Violet]

READ THE DAMN THREAD

This.

[Violet]

Six pages in two days, and we have replacements. Very nice. Looks like I have some catching up to do.

[Violet]

unvote

I still want more content from GNR and PMyst before a lynch actually goes through.

I'm not inclined to believe you'll get it. PMyst hasn't posted content all game, and GNR has been absent since the beginning.

I want to hear more from Vio. He picked a "good" time to go missing.

I never went missing. What did you want to hear?

[Violet]

I was going to respond to Tracey's last wall on me, but I realized through all the comments that nobody wants to hear another endless wall of worthless banter between us. Except Tracey.

I've actually spent some time pouring through several of Thor's games, and I've seen Nacho's play before. But neither are helping me with reads. I initially had bad vibes from both of them for wanting to push a PM lynch, but after considering the logic of doing so (players who contribute nothing are inherently detrimental to the town one way or another, and every day is more critical so to "waste" the lynch on them later isn't exactly an option) those vibes are cleared and I'm back to square one. Slight town read on both. Cheery is a little less town, I'll explain in a minute.

There's been a lot of talk between Tracey/Thor/Nacho on me/Tracey scum, mostly siding with me, and there's been discussion of a PM lynch which in my opinion is still fruitless (the lynch, not the discussion). Both of those discussions I don't have a place in because (1) I'm tired of defending myself from Tracey who believes I'm provoking her when I'm not, and (2) I don't exactly support a PM lynch with the state of our (well, my) current scum-reads. If at the end of the day they need a hammer, I'll do it without hesitation. But I'm not going to actively push the lynch.

Cheery with his sudden sheeping of me and posts like this (there are A TON more reasons to think Tracey's scum, and he picks something completely irrelevant to push him over the edge and vote her) confuses the hell out of me and I don't like it. Tracey's wagon skyrocketed. I would say that's a good thing, but the sheer speed at which it grew makes me believe there's a small chance it's scum-supported (that is, if I forget everything she's done this game and ignore her OMGUS).

In regards to Cheery, his posts have been very sheepy of everyone as of late (especially me, as mentioned earlier) and his last two aren't really helpful when we have five days left. It almost looks like he's quietly hoping for a no-lynch.

I spoke too soon.

[Violet]

You've provided no reads or thoughts of your own, only what's already been said. You switched to Tracey over something very minor.

Feel free to explain how any of your last posts increase the flow of information. I see more stunting of information than anything else. Waiting for a lynch at this point isn't very productive and puts us in danger of a no-lynch.

[Violet]

Explain to me again why it makes sense to vote the person who your other strong scum read is voting rather than the person who has a vote from one of your null-town reads?

Scum can bus and town can be dead wrong. Neither influences who I personally think is scum.

Bold/italic: Damn skippy I did. I don't agree with policy lynches. I see zero benefits in them, especially in a game as small as newbies. With that being said, why would I allow the discussion to continue? Explain to me how it's scummy.

Because discussion provides information, and it was an important discussion to have. Explain how squelching an important discussion is town.

GNR: I don't know what he was trying to accomplish with his first post, but I don't really trust it. There is a possibility he could be trying to earn early town points by feigning PR-protection while simultaneously limiting town information by keeping the Jailkeeper from us. Even stranger is the fact that Jailkeepers are usually on the scum side, and there is none in this game.

Could you explain this? I don't follow.

It was speculative, and it was just a disorganized collection of thoughts. But, the only thing I could get out of that post was that he was really adamant to protect town PRs (or rather, look protective) which weren't there.

I'm still here. I'll reread and HOPE to get a post out tomorrow that's actually worth something. Then, I hope you guys will see what happens when you vote lurkers. (Trust me, its bad.)

That's great. Except there's a 50% chance you're getting lynched, and if you flip town, nobody's going to feel like voting a lurker was a bad idea. Your play is terrible for the game in general. If you get lynched, there are people that will

celebrate

the removal of a cancer from this game.

[Violet]

PM is obvtown now. I wanted to wait and see his response to L-1 since it terrifies him, but I suppose that isn't really necessary at this point.

First of all, you never made a case on him to begin with. But second, I don't see how now he's obvtown when he's made one tiny post since you called him scum and it's telling us all not to vote him. That doesn't scream obvtown, that screams survival.

He knows his own meta, that was covered ten pages ago. Any meta argument is useless.

I quoted the wrong question (probably should have read it fully first..). The one I wanted was actually a Mala quote:

You want me to answer... Mala's questions. And you ask me how I generally make my catchup posts. And about night kill analysis day 1. Exactly what are you trying to accomplish by forcing me to answer all of these irrelevant things? Is it just to ask me more questions?

Why are you voting for Tracey, when you scum read on Klick was doubled.
Which brings me to the question why aren't you voting your strongest scum read rather than voting the weaker scum read.

Strawman. Just because my read of Klick doubled doesn't mean it's now stronger than my read on Tracey. It's a stupid question. I was voting my strongest scum read. Someone intelligent such as yourself should be able to recognize that.

Because discussion provides information, and it was an important discussion to have. Explain how squelching an important discussion is town.

What are your thoughts on night kill analysis day one?

There's no night kill to analyze on day one, answer the question.

Who is your strongest scum read and why aren't you voting for him/her?

[Violet]

This feels very double tongued to me.
Could you link me to where the read 'doubled' and explain how you classify your scum totals?

Mit linked it the quote. I don't usually keep hard scum-totals or percents, they're difficult to maintain and fluctuate too rapidly to be of any use. At any given point in a day, or depending on the day I've had, they could actually be a lot different because my perspective is different, but the conclusions generally stay the same.

The word "redoubled" doesn't always mean exactly twice as much. I apologize if it's a poor use of language, I've seen it used a lot in Tolkien's writing but that's about it.

They aren't irrelevant at all. I've actually gotten very compelling answers from them; I just have decided not to reveal them yet. I was planning to if I made a case against you or if you lived to tomorrow. I still haven't quite decided if I am going to hold off or not on making it.

I'd really love to see how on earth you think I'm scum for what I always do regardless of alignment. You have three days.

You said you thought we were a scum team.

I don't know what world you live in where that doesn't mean two people are at more or less equal places on the scum scale. You saying Klick's read doubled implies he was then scummier than me.

Except I voted

you

. That alone shows you exactly where I stand. I thought you were a scum team based on your interactions with each other and how both of you were scummy.

Whoaaaaaaa. Intense appeal (though of which kind, I am unsure... Flattery maybe?). Does not sit well. Does not sit well at all.

We've had this discussion in real life. I wouldn't hang out with you if you had the brains of a dull brick with an extra chromosome. Though the fact that you'd point it out like it's something scummy is definitely something I'm keeping tabs on.

Night two I mean. Pretend the flip was a vanilla townie.

It depends heavily on the situation, but I find most NK analysies to be nigh-worthless. It's all WIFOM. For instance, I almost always kill Nacho as scum because he's usually a strong player, but I doubt I would this game (assuming he wouldn't be my partner) because he seems distant and disinterested and isn't exactly convincing anyone of anything. But even if you knew that about me, it would still be worthless to try and analyze it that way because I know that's what I do so I can change it at will, and it's situational. And that's just me - depending on who my partner would be in that situation they may or may not agree with my meta-views. The combined chemistry is something you can't even begin to account for due to the sheer numbers of possible combinations and unpredictable nature (9x8=72 possible combos, plus synergistic chemistry between the two people, plus a hidden conversation we have no access to).

Scum have their own reasons for doing things that are so far removed from the information I have as town that guessing is like shooting a target blindfolded with an ill-maintained 16th century pistol. It'll probably just shoot blow up in your face.

Now spin my personal views on NK analysis into something scummy.

[Violet]

Nine players times eight possible partners.

[Violet]

I think Tracey's scum, Tracey thinks I'm scum, Nacho thinks PM is scum, and Mala thinks Cheery is scum. All of us have votes in play and they're spread four ways. The only wagon that actually has any steam behind it is PM and he's just a lurker with no ties to anyone and no real information to gain from his flip. We might get lucky and hit scum, but I doubt it.

[Violet]

Vio is scum because of how he's been pushing Tracey. He's been happy to sit on her and tunnel her to hell without providing much else in the way of reads, and hasn't really doubted himself in any way whatsoever.

Despite the scumread on Vio that she feasibly could push as scum for the rest of the game and nobody would know what the fuck to do, her vote has been decently flexible, and she's been paranoid enough and aggressive enough that I can buy her as town for now.

It's funny how you use the word "flexible" and I use "wish-washy".

She hasn't done anything to change my mind about her being scum, I don't see why sticking with my reads (which I've seen no reason yet to change) is scummy. And yes, it has crossed my mind that it might just be our personalities mashing (we fight in real life a

lot

) but that doesn't change the concrete things that has happened that lead me to that read that I can't write off as personality differences. And that hesitation isn't exactly something I wanted to admit anyway.

Yet, he is also willing to posture for easy lynches when the votes come up (see: his slight town read on me and Thor for how we pushed the PM wagons), and has virtually no solid townreads whatsoever even though his Tracey scumread is solid as fuck.

It's not as if there was no reason for that, either. The arguments you used did make sense, even if I did not (and still don't) want a PM lynch. I personally hunted for scum regardless of everyone's scum-reads and built the Tracey case from the ground up when noone else even realized she was scum. Don't tell me I'm being lazy.

He had this exchange with Mala where she asked for him for reads on like 4 different people, and they all ended up being townreads: but in each and every one of these townreads, he felt obligated to give reasons why his townreads could be scum, which would allow for an easy transition later.

Aight, I'm really wondering if you actually read what I wrote or not. GNR and CommieX (who you replaced) barely wrote anything, CD active-lurked, and Mit I actually did have a bit of a town read on, and still do. It's not as if I wrote it intentionally being vague, I explained my thoughts in detail and gave good reasons for not having much of a read on them (besides Mit, who I specified was a town-read).

If either Tracey or Klick were to flip town at any point of the game, would you still consider the second living one as scum? If so, why.

Klick, no. Tracey, yes. Tracey's done a lot of scummy things independent of everyone else, and Klick's had enough interactions with just Tracey that if she flipped town then Klick would be fairly clear. He also rejected her attempts to buddy, which, with her being considered town in the first half of the game, would have otherwise looked good for him.

---

If I don't otherwise hear a convincing reason not to, I will hammer PM tonight.

If anyone has an objection, now is the time to say so.

[Violet]

Way to ignore my case, Vio.

Why does it feel like you're trying to convince

me

that

I'm

scum?

[Violet]

If PM is scum I am dead serious that you should all lynch Nacho tomorrow.
Don't think this is a random Thor commentary - ruddy do it.

This logic is sound.

Three more posts and GNR will have doubled his post count for the day, and all because he has a pretty good chance of dying now.
PM apparently went on a fake V/LA to lurk away the pressure, but that's not how PM deals with pressure as scum. He posts a lot, no reasoning. Sort of exactly what GNR is doing now.

A quick look at GNR's meta, from what I can gather, is that in the one scum game he's played, he was a lot more active, and in his town games he plays almost exactly like he is now. Not that meta is ever a proper reason for a read, but I would like to bring this to the table on the offchance I can't tomorrow.

[Violet]

I hope you guys will see what happens when you vote lurkers. (Trust me, its bad.)

That is the

last

time I ignore my gut feeling.

[Violet]

I was going to leave it as if the game ha

been locked, but okay.

Robo didn't lock the thread, and he didn't say "please stop posting", so why would you stop posting? We have the full cast of players and the flip results, this is the best possible situation for discussion because tomorrow two of us will be silenced. Now I'll ask again, why on earth would you intentionally stop posting?

[Violet]

Tracey-Thor scumteam, unfortunately also the most vocal players in the game right now. Almost all of Thor's are casually responding to Tracey, as if he has no doubts about her alignment whatsoever and are friendly discussion meant to look like contributing to the game. They have both bantered with each other lightly to the point where it appears on the surface that they're not buddies but with nothing concrete and no cases against one another, almost all of their discussion has been asking each other about each other's cases and asking for more explanation, which has the effect of making both players seem less scummy (because they're calling bad reasoning out) and making their cases seem stronger (by continuing to add layers). Now they both have the same vote, but Thor's reasoning is suspect (read: nonexistant), he's sheeping her heavily, and his only given reason is the NK which he probably had control of in the first place.

The Klick-Tracey "friendship" had similar implications.

I'm calling it.

VOTE: Tracey

[Violet]

GNR is pretty obvious town for meta-reasons. I believe Mit is town as well, as is Mala. CD I'm actually quite unsure of, he's a bit of a wildcard. I have a gut town-read on him, but that's only because my other two scum reads are pretty strong at this point.

[Violet]

@Vio: When are you going to make a case against someone that doesn't rely on associative tells?

I already made one on you, like, twelve pages ago. Stop scum-slipping, you're making the game boring.

[Violet]

It's also funny how the only people who really suspect me, besides Nacho, are the people who's slots I've declared as scum. Basically, you and Thor.

You only want me dead because I know. It's cute.

PEdit: I read some of Riggs' games on both sides. You don't have to play with someone to know their meta. Riggs as scum is ultra-active and making cases like crazy. Riggs as town is lurky with occasional list-posts (posts listing his reads by player).

[Violet]

Could you link the games that you read?

All of them.

Did you look up anyone else's meta?

Alright, and while I'm doing that, why don't you describe in impossible detail why

all

of your scumreads are scum and

all

of your town reads are town, and exactly why (down to the last passing thought you could possibly have) you're

such good friends

with Thor even though you keep correcting his every case.

And yes. I looked at Thor's meta, that's the only other meta I've looked at. All I learned from Thor's is that he's hard to read if he's scum you're pretty much screwed. Which isn't entirely inaccurate now.

@Violet: weren't you also calling it yesterday, as well? Nothing much seems to have changed in your arguments.

I know. I've been surprised by how little my scum-reads have changed. My town reads have kind of been all over the place except for a couple (you and Mala). But then again, nothing's changed since I joined the game. Tracey and Thor's slot are still buddy-buddy even with a change of person, Tracey's still manipulating things, and the things that have changed are just because I learned more, like about GNR's meta.

p-edit: @Violet: On the other hand, Nacho

did

suspect you. It's far less likely, I think, that only the mafia team "suspects" one townie, than one of the team giving suspicions on two.

There's town on every wagon. What do you think about the facts that Tracey and Thor are the main pushers of my wagon, and are buddy-buddy, and keep asking each other to close holes in each others arguments, and just so happen to be the two people I suspected when I first came into the game? You completely ignored that part.

Can you link those games?

The ones I've seen of his scum play (though I will note I have only skimmed through them), he was just as lurky as he is here.

I seriously just read all of the completed games in his wiki. There are five, most are short. Have fun.

[Violet]

With this as a final conclusion, what makes Tracy with an 'e' the scummier of the two of us?

Literally the only thing keeping me from raging right now is the fact that you two are scum. That is

not

the only reason I think Tracey is scum, stop misrepping me to push your scum agenda.

[Violet]

Why don't you read anything I've written in the past month?

[Violet]

But the fact remains that, if Tracey and Thor are scumbuddies, they're working together to attack you, with not much support from the town. Wouldn't that be a rather bold move? Wouldn't they be more likely to have one person push and another hold back until the wagon got some steam? Because right now they'd needlessly be putting themselves in too weak a position, particularly if you were lynched and flipped town.

I don't think they've entirely thought this through, nor would they have. Thor still has no visible case against me. And Tracey, always one to back him up, pointed it out while avoiding any mention of suspicion. They're literally blowing me off, together, with no regard to how it looks, because that's how confident they are that they have the win in their hands.

[Violet]

Why don't you read anything I've written in the past month?

I read you calling me a town read yesterday - does that count?

No. That was before Nacho flipped and you blamed it on me. Also, pretending I don't have a case on Tracey.

@Violet - did you look at my meta just off my wiki too? Y'know, the two year old meta?

Not at all, I went though and looked through your most recent games. But you're also an established, well-known player, meta is a lot different, it means almost nothing. I just wanted to get more comfortable with your playstyle.

@Violet: You know Tracey. From your knowledge of her, is this how she generally behaves? Would she be jumping between accusing you and me yesterday if she is scum?

If she knows something, she's extremely aggressive and confident about it. If she doesn't, she's more unsure and cautious. I

highly

doubt she'd be this aggressive as town.

[Violet]

@Violet: If Thor is town, is Tracey still scum? If Tracey is town, is Thor still scum? Why or why not? If neither is scum, who is your next biggest scumread?

I'm pretty sure about Tracey, not so much about Thor. So to answer your questions:

Thor, maybe. Probably. Buddying up with the most vocal player is still scummy in it's own right, but if she flips town I'm going to have to reconsider a

lot

of things. And we'd probably lose the game at that point because we can't take another two mislynches in a row, and I'd most definitely be the first on the chopping block.

Tracey, most definitely. She's been deceptive and manipulative the entire game, and her reads aren't genuine. Among other things. My read on her isn't dependent on anything but her play this game.

If neither is scum, it's gotta be CD and I couldn't guess the other for the life of me. Maybe you. But if that were the case the game would be over by the time we found out.

In my personal opinion, with only a two-person scum team, associative tells are a lot better than most people give credit to. More than that and it gets muddled. But association is a key aspect of gameplay that can't simply be ignored in a small game because friends are extra-valuable. It's more likely that you'd win by teaming up than by bussing or distancing like you would in a large.

[Violet]

Just to clear things up, I did say I would hammer before deadline. I'm not exactly off the wagon. Or scum, for that matter.

[Violet]

Honesty.

[Violet]

Which will help us in this particular instance...how?

You should have the foresight to know that even if something isn't helpful right this second, it might be later on. But thanks for making it more obvious that you're misrepresenting me.

[Violet]

By pretending that information is never useful.

[Violet]

His vote has a lot more explanation than Thor's. At least he has a reason.

[Violet]

Minecraft has taken my life away. Currently ingesting copious amounts of caffeine for enhanced neural function.

Processing...

Post incoming.

[Violet]

Is there a reason that you linked them for Cheery but not me?

If you were asked to

triple

or

quadruple

-source every single statement you made, and by scum who doesn't have to do anything but ask a bunch of questions to look town, you'd be pretty frustrated too. Cheery's town.

I also find it amusing that you keep saying that I'm buddying Thor. I've thought I've been pretty touchy and aggressive with him..

"Buddying". I've been using buddying and distancing interchangably, because you're doing both and it's almost impressive. Yeah, you've been touchy and aggressive to the point of looking like you two vehemently disagree which each other while actually agreeing and/or having a pleasant debate. Neither one of you is pushing a lynch against the other, not even close. It's like you don't even suspect each other

oh wait scum don't have to suspect each other because they're on the same damn team.

And you wanna look like you disagree. So you "argue".

Show me examples. You keep saying how we're asking each other questions and correcting each other's cases?

I don't even know what you mean by the latter, but I don't exactly see how the former is scummy.

To your second question: I mean you two are "disagreeing" because of invalid points and then never pursuing it past that. You argue back and forth a couple times and then drop subjects when they are sufficiently defended.

Examples are numerous, so I'm not going to list

all

of them as would be your preference. But here are a few:

Post #346 After Thor pointed out that your statement made no sense, you quickly defended it. Not once did he say it was scummy, though it could be argued it was weakly implied. This certainly

looks

like you're arguing, until you realize that the dialogue is friendly, calm, and explanatory.

Spoiler: Quote from you

"Well a) I haven't mentioned suspicion of him because I'm unsure of whether he is Thor-scum or Thor-town yet. I get bad gut vibes, but he seems to be moving the game along in a more or less pro-town way, so. And I have read over his scum QTs, and from those I glean that he's a much better town player than a scum player. That being said, I don't think it's an issue letting my read on him simmer until I can get a clear one."

You made it out so that you can get away without giving an actual read, yet still distancing. Not one of those statements was based in fact, it was all meta BS and gut feelings. If I did that you'd be on my ass like it's nobody's business. And you'd ask for five sources.

Here's the first post in the series, I refuse to post them all, just read the dialogue between you and Thor. Discussing metagame, strategy, generating a lot of you-Thor discussion that doesn't involve talking with anyone else, and quite frankly doesn't have enough game-specific information in it to include anyone else.

Why did you only look at Riggs' and Thor's meta?

GNR had no content, Thor is established and quite experienced, but I've never seen his play. Nacho I'm familiar with, you I know in real life. For everyone else, I wasn't uncomfortable not knowing anything about them from past games. I dislike reliance on meta.

I've recently read five of your past games (which I know are recent, I did the research this time) and though I wouldn't consider any of them excellent indicators of your playstyle, I did notice a general trend of you being heavily aggressive as scum (especially with your vote) and much more tentative as town. I understand 4/5_ths of them were newbie games, and I might be suffering from confirmation bias here, but that would suggest you're scum this game.

You didn't suspect Thor, though. You suspected Klick. And once Thor came in, you had him as a null-town read and then a town read. Today is the first time you've shown any indication that you thought Thor was scum.

I've been mixing up who replaced who since Nacho and Thor joined, and I spent the game night studying the game. Thor did replace Klick, they're the same slot, and they have the same behavior. Until this point I hadn't examined the similarities. Also, examining the PM lynch, three quick votes in a row is concerning, especially since Thor was voting right after you apparently without expecting Nacho in the middle (and within a timespan of nine minutes).

You also keep forgetting that Thor has voted you for night speculation. He has not clarified on anything more. So why are you freaking out about his vote?

Bravo, you've turned my calling him out on having no reason for his vote into attacking me. That must have taken some effort. *applause*

And b) HOW HAVE I BLOWN YOU OFF. I respond to everything you say, I refute every case you make, I challenge a lot of the things you say. I am most certainly

not

blowing you off.

If by "refute" you mean ask for half a dozen sources because you don't remember anything and then still hold your point of view and then

dropping the discussion

. Like my read on Mala. Since you forget I'll hold your hand and show you the light. And since you also don't remember your response, it's the one right below my post, saying "you should do this more often" rather than showing any sign you actually read the damn thing. And that's one example. Here's another one, more recent, an entire post devoted to that cause and asking me to ruffle through more garbage to try and find the exact used tissues and toothpicks I found the first time. And while we're looking at recent posts let's look at your post before that which dismisses my argument and redirects attention towards me (which by the way, that

is

manipulative, I don't care how you want to frame it).

Also, aggressiveness has nothing to do with it - I'm aggressive as both alignments. Confidence though, that could probably be more alignment-indicative.

You have both aggressiveness and confidence. And you really aren't aggressive as town, learn your own meta

it could one day save your life

.

Oh no you did not. DECEPTIVE? I've told you this before in real life. The thrill of being scum is winning

without

lying. You know I don't like lying, there's no point in using it as scum - especially when it's expected. Show me

one instance

of my being deceptive.

That post. I remember that conversation, you said the thrill of being scum was turning everyone against each other, and you're inevitably going to lie as scum, it's impossible not to. You can't call me scum while knowing I'm town and say that's not a lie or being deceptive.

As for the manipulation factor, what have I manipulated? List three things. I dare you. Go.

Ok, this is getting ridiculous to the point where I think you're trying to waste all my time so the only thing I can do is re-read for my responses to you, effectively taking me out of the game. You can use seven words to make me do half an hour's work, and you do that three times a post. And that's just responding to

you

.

How have my reads not been genuine? Again, show me examples.

Impossible. There is literally no concrete way to show that a read is genuine or not - you could just be crazy like me, or you could have legitimately slipped up, or you could be fabricating things in your mind because your brain can't process all of the information you have to take into account, and that all happens to everyone. This is further evidence that you just want to keep me busy - you can't possibly expect me to find a source for something that isn't ever conclusively provable.

[Violet]

Dunno - don't hunt scumpartners.
It would be someone on the wagon though - that's relatively certain.

I feel like this is an easy way to get out of actually saying something of substance. It is likely that scum were on the PM wagon, either one or both - that's usually what happens, with such frequency it's downright expected. Saying so adds zip to the info pool. By stating you don't hunt partners, you give yourself an excuse to ignore partner-tells as well.

Well...tell you what. Later on, in the game, when you spot where that information becomes relevant as anything besides a mewling claim of townishness from you.

It's moderately useful for statistical purposes and vote counts. And apparently also for catching scum-Thor red handed turning unscummy things into scummy ones.

I actually think most scum kill people for either looking quite town and/or for suspecting scum. The two are fairly connected and do not require scum flips to get info on them.
Also, by your own stated view - a scum flip would not make that situation any clearer, so...

What happened to what? You're mistaking 'dropping them' with 'not discussing them yet'. Again, it's day start, relax and be quiet if you have nothing functional to add.

I -usually- base kills off of who could be a PR. I've seen several others do so as well. I've also seen scum use a random generator to make their kill. Using night kill analysis as a supporting factor to a case on someone is okay I guess. Using it as the entire case is not, which is why I'm getting so frustrated - it seems as though that's what a lot of you are leading up to.

This is one of the things I forgot to list in my response to you. So you understand he has a baseless vote, you understand he's making a terrible argument, and what you respond with is "your case is looking a little weak, brah".

You have no qualms about people mindlessly sheeping you unless it's Thor - then you make him come up with reasons so that he looks better.

[Violet]

Could someone explain why GNR is actually scum? Or are you all just voting lurkers again?

[Violet]

Because he voted PM? Or because he attacked a person with a reason for voting for not having a reason to vote?

[Violet]

Nacho's push on him paired with Nacho's death

This might be a valid point if Nacho wouldn't be the first choice NK by you and I as well as Riggs,

and

anyone who knew Nacho as a good player.

a lurking playstyle that spikes in activity as he is suspected

It only spiked once, but he

was

at L-1. Point granted.

and running away from pushing this slot when a weak player was replaced by me.

He never pushed your slot. One random vote at the start of the game, which he promptly undid. That's it.

Better than any three of those points is the fact that GNR had a town read on Mit until he had two votes on him.

And this:

Thor665 - Town

First off, he's Thor.

I have to assume he's town or I get nightkilled.

Also, his playstyle

does not seem scummy at all

Thor's post read town as well.

Nothing I saw suggests scum or anti-town at all

Bolded for emphasis. He recognizes you're a strong player and then states you're not scum

at all

. The first sentence makes a lot more sense as a statement if you replace "nightkill" with "lynched by him" which is probably what he meant.

[Violet]

Violet already mentioned some of these things but...

I just made Thor's case on you stronger by dissolving 2/3rds of it and making my own points. Try again.

"Oh, I see this person died after pushing this person's lynch. They must be scum!" Isn't that what the scum team would want you to think?

Yeah. Except if you were part of the scum team, you could be planning to use this as an excuse to lynch the person who suspects you most, and without consequence. So I can

clearly

not choose the wine in front of me.

I don't think I like the wagon on Riggs.

I feel silly asking this, but why not? Sure, Mit's on it, but the other two people are your BFF and someone you explicitly stated was town.

Which is followed by him completely ignoring my case against him.

Would you like me to vote myself or were you just hoping for a pat on the back? I'd personally love a bouquet of

flowers

and someone to tell me everything's ok.

[Violet]

What makes you feel silly by asking it?

I feel like she's probably stated strong reasons already and I'm just not remembering or looking hard enough.

And you just asked her the same question >.>

I didn't use the fact the you mentioned the points as an excuse to not talk about them. Did you read the rest of that post? Obviously looking below, so why mention it?

Thor's remaining points were weak, this was already covered. You never addressed mine.

Yes, I am aware that is what WIFOM is (I did enjoy the video though). It is a part of the game of Mafia unfortuantely.

I was just pointing it out stylistically. And I love the movie. But no, seriously, WIFOM is terrible craplogic that should die. The fact that you'd use it knowingly as a defense is concerning.

[Violet]

I'm not sure what Violet was getting at when bolding the other two lines.

The third bolded means absolutely nothing in terms of your alignment.

The second and third lines are showing how he absolutely under no circumstances suspects Thor in any way at all. In other words, he's taking no risk in suspecting a good, established player. What reason would town have to be intimidated by him like that?

Wouldn't it be good to point out why I'm wrong?

If anyone cared, yes.

Considering that nobody does, and the you vs. me debate is pretty much a private affair (nobody outside commenting except to say it looked like town v town), I don't think it's necessary. Besides that, it takes up an extraordinary amount of time, and when it walls up it stagnates discussion for everyone else. If you

really

think I'm scum and

really

want me lynched, it's your responsibility to convince

everyone else

. I'm not about to vote myself, I know what my role PM said, and so you don't need to repeatedly tell me that I'm wrong about what my alignment is.

In summary:

• It takes time and effort
  
• Nobody else is involved in the debates
  
• I know I'm town
  
• It's fruitless to continue

I know

you

care and

you

want me to respond, but you keep repeating the same tired points and your mind is set on me being scum. So it's not worth it.

[Violet]

I already answered that. It stopped being relevant long before we stopped walling.

[Violet]

If there is a roleblocker on the scum team, you may have been cop hunting. (since you would know one exists if that is the case).

Slightly off-topic, if either Mit or GNR flips scum, it is likely that we have a cop. Theoretically the scum team should know what the setup is now, and both have claimed VT where they could have claimed cop (should there be none to counterclaim).

[Violet]

If I changed my vote it would hammer. Which I'm about to do.

I didn't say Mit/GNR scumteam, but that is consistent with my current thinking.

[Violet]

VOTE: GNR

[Violet]

VT.

[Violet]

Tracey next.

[Violet]

Thor is scum, because he is still alive, whilst Nacho died very very quickly. Discuss.

It could also be the case that you planned on a Thor lynch for this very reason. It's a non-argument.

[Violet]

2) Scum are thinking that they can fool you through the game, so Cheery's death was more important than yours, or
3) Scum wanted to say that you must be scum, because you didn't die.
But the problem with 3 (and 2), from my PoV anyway, is that once I said it (and note that everyone had spoken at some point before I did, so others had a chance to say it too), Violet attacked me for it and Mala basically ignored it. And Tracey hasn't said anything yet, but there's no helping that. No one tried to even say that it might be worth considering.

1) Every bit of that argument is WIFOM.
2) I just pointed out that it was logically invalid, I didn't attack you or hold it against you.
3) As town it really isn't helpful to speculate openly about scum because once again it's all WIFOM.
4) As scum you could have planned to use that argument to look town and push a Thor lynch.

Thor might be scum, but it also might be the case that the scumteam just found it more worthwhile to NK Cheery. Which quite frankly isn't too far-fetched, considering Cheery was regarded as town by a good number of us (going back and checking, 3/5ths of us) while Thor could be argued either way. It could also be that they were cop-hunting and thought Cheery was it. Also, because Cheery might be the least receptive to their ideas. Also, because they might not want Cheery in LyLo.

Personal anecdotes can't be proven. That's why nobody is considering it.

[Violet]

Also, we have a Doctor who lied and doesn't want to claim yet, or the mafia team is incompetent.

Discuss.

[Violet]

Oh, I'm sorry I struck a nerve. Maybe next time I'll be more sensitive to scum-rights issues.

[Violet]

I'm going to be V/LA for a couple days.

I should have declared so earlier, my apologies.

[Violet]

You couldn't have listed your reads before you left, why?

Because I was leaving in five minutes and still didn't have shoes on, and I hadn't read your post yet.

Thor, you, Mit. Mala's not on my list.

I'll explain why the logic you're about to use is going to fail hard after you draw all of your conclusions from it.

[Violet]

You. Go.

[Violet]

Mit and I are split two and two.

I believe the scum have already won and they know it. Saying this doesn't change the outcome but I want to see if I'm right.

[Violet]

Vio, why did you not add Mala to your list?

That's not important right now.

[Violet]

It's really not.

[Violet]

I don't owe you anything. You've already won the game, the least I can do is be smug about my reads.

[Violet]

That's 100% accurate but it's not the whole reason.

[Violet]

@Tracey: You are setting it up so that it is "impossible" for you to be partners with Thor, and you can lynch him and look town because apparently it's not beneficial for scum to do that in 5 man lylo (which it actually is, very). I hate to be lazy and go back to my old reads, but that seems most likely right now.

[Violet]

Mala and Mit are now using the same arguments I was at the beginning of Day 2.

But they're not technically being recycled because I doubt anyone read them in the first place, except Tracey. Who doesn't benefit from bringing them up.

Kick-Tracey and Thor-Tracey scumpair has been evident for a while now.

Is anyone against lynching Mala today?

Yes.

[Violet]

My reasoning for this. I was confused about Mit. Everyone was calling him scum. It didn't make sense for everyone to have him as a top scumread in LyLo unless he was town because, logically, his partner would not put him in such a position.

If I already said this then forgive me for repeating it, but scum benefits from bussing their partner now because it looks good later. It ensures a more likely victory the next day and everyone already suspected Mit and has for a long time, it'd look suspicious if someone suddenly thought he was really townish.

Mit's post #979 really made me consider this because he was right. No one was jumping on it.

That's not true at all. Everyone except you pointed out that it was heavy WIFOM and invalid logic. Plus Thor actually did attack him for it.

Violet, Thor, and Mala all came in attacking Mit. Looking at their reads, only one of them actually had him as a top scum read. It was weird. So voila!

I actually didn't come in attacking Mit, and he was my third scum-read when we have two scum in the game, I haven't attacked him all day. Bad logic is bad.

I'm really disappointed, that looked like a great post until I read it.

[Violet]

Considering now we know what PM flipped. Klick's defense of PM is considered scummy to me. Then again, when Thor came in.. He started to attack PM which was opposite of what Klick was doing.

Scum is perfectly capable of intentionally changing what their predecessor was doing in order to make it look better. Seeing as first impressions are very important, someone replacing in as scum needs to make themselves look as good as possible for the first several posts.

Vio, what do you think of Tracey putting Thor as a town read and then after everyone's posts she flipped it to a scum read?

I'm pretty sure she only started suspecting Thor after everyone else starting suspecting him. I wanna check the timing though.

How sure are you about Mit being scum?

[Violet]

It was just Mit and myself. But that's still significant enough that she might try something drastic. When Mit started suspecting Thor that's when I didn't feel so alone in my reads anymore.

To be honest, I don't trust her giant post at all. Especially given the amount of bad logic. It could have easily swung to suspect anyone at the conclusion, and all she'd have to do is provide a paragraph at the end to justify it. That's what I meant when I said "I'll explain why that logic is terrible after you write it" - because I knew she was going to do something like that. It's easy enough to pull off without a hitch.

[Violet]

I should prod dodge at this point since I'm due for a prod, but I don't like doing so.

[Violet]

I'm confident enough in Thor-scum that I'm ready to vote.

[Violet]

Spoiler: A lot of words to Tracey

Why would scum want to prepare for tomorrow when they could end it today? I'm not saying bussing isn't effective... I'm saying there are more effective ways to go about LyLo as scum that could help them today as well as tomorrow.

I agree there are more effective methods but they don't always work and might not be worth the risk if the plans fall through. For instance, Mit started turn on Thor before you gave your read, and I've held a scum-read on Thor for a long time. Assuming my stance of you-Thor scum is correct (logical fallacy, sue me), it makes sense at this point in the game that you might want to bus him instead of trying to sway a me-lynch or Mit-lynch.

You are right, though. If the scum have had each other as scum reads the entire game, they're pretty much stuck bussing in LyLo. Which is one reason why my experiment is flawed.

And if my scenario above were correct, this is an attempt to steer attention to setting up Mala-Mit as a scumteam.

No one tried to even say that it might be worth considering. Here I am, offering the scumteam a perfect victory, and they don't take it.

I was referring to the bolded.

It doesn't really matter. It's still heavy WIFOM and you can't use it as valid logic. He could just as easily be scum making a false plea.

This looked like attacking to me. This did as well, however, now I see that it was just a hypothetical scenario.

An attack would require that I push for his lynch or call him scum, which I was actually careful not to do. I don't think he's scummier for making the plea, my gut says its genuine, among other things. I don't think he would do that as scum because it's not a good tactic and people generally find it scummy because it's craplogic. But you understand, I can't use that reasoning. And neither can you.

Are you reading? You and Mit need to realize that that experiment

was not significant

. God damn.

Right, that's why you made a big deal out of it until everyone shot it down. I get that it failed as a gambit and you're upset over it, but that's no excuse to lie to us now.

It was significant to

you.

Violet, you're ignoring my questions. Kindly stop being a child, and answer them. I'm getting sick of this. I shouldn't have to tell you ten times in each day phase to answer my questions. I don't really give a rat's ass if I'm your top scum read and that's never changing. You don't know for a

fact

that I am scum until the flip, so ignoring my questioning is just immature.

Here's the thing, I ignore some of your questions. You ask a ton, and if I answered them all, every single post I made would be doubled, and I already told you I don't like being dragged through the muck by you, especially when I'm putting effort in. I know you're going to have some innane issue with it or otherwise ignore my response like it didn't matter in the first place. I don't like spending hours on something that will have a minnimal impact on the game. Terribly inefficient. It's like building a giant lego tower knowing your friend is going to kick it down within minutes of it's construction. Not worth it.

Part of the other issue here is that even though we're friends and we think we can read one another, we can't. Also, our personalities clash on a cataclysmic level despite having similar thoughts and feelings. We also know just how to get on each others nerves, and even if we don't try, it ends up that way. Like just then, with the whole child thing. You know that gets under my skin, and I know you probably didn't do it on purpose, but it pisses me off. Same with the questions thing for you.

Getting past that, I still think you're scum for other reasons. Some of which I have listed, some of which are just gut instinct and logic I've justified in my head but aren't really valid outside that.

Having read the questions you requoted, I addressed two of them and I was actually about to answer the third independantly.

Second self correction: I addressed one, and wrote up an answer to another one which was quite lengthy and never got posted. I'll just answer it again.

Also, Vio, what was your read of Cheery? Town or scum? Your most recent read on him was given ten pages back, so I'd like an updated read if you would be so kind.

Updating a read after the fact doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I don't remember exactly everything I was thinking that day.

Town. Not quite Mala but close. Back then those reads might have been reversed. I really don't even remember.

Vio, why did you not add Mala to your list?

It was a scumlist, and she sits firmly on the "town" side. She's not a scumread. Since she's most likely dying tonight anyway, I'll go ahead and say that if the scumteam weren't just missing out on a "perfect" opportunity, Mala is the most likely candadite for being the cop, and she would have been NKed last night had I been scum. Though looking at who did die, it appears as if they were just hunting town reads so there's probably not one after all.

@Tracey: You are setting it up so that it is "impossible" for you to be partners with Thor, and you can lynch him and look town because apparently it's not beneficial for scum to do that in 5 man lylo (which it actually is, very). I hate to be lazy and go back to my old reads, but that seems most likely right now.

Cool story, bro. You could say that I'm doing the same with Mit. Why aren't you saying that?

You know that doesn't make it any better. Especially now that we know you're aware of it. Maybe I should be saying that, thanks.

No, but seriously, it wouldn't make sense because you've started retracting your Mit read for an all-out Thor bus. That's why I'm not saying that.

Also, Tracy is a gigantic walrus.

We have four days left. No mention of voting. This isn't mylo, it's lylo.

VOTE: Thor

[Violet]

It's about to get really fast. I hope.

Four days. I'm gonna say it every post until there's votes.

[Violet]

Who is my buddy, by the way, Violet?

Heh.

Then wait to see if Mala and Mil speed lynch me.

I'm confident they won't. But that's interesting that you'd group us off like that. Because that's my perspective. It's either You-Tracey or Mala-Mit, but only I would think like that.

I'm still the only one voting.

Why did you guys give me so many words to respond to...

Now I know how you all feel.

GOOD

THIS IS HOW I FEEL EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU POST

FEEL BAD

[Violet]

Are you arguing that I'm scum, who expected town to listen to my lynch wishes after I was lynched? Because...I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that.

The only possible way the game would continue after your lynch is if you're scum. Which shows a lot about your mindset.

[Violet]

Deadline is tomorrow. More votes, please. Thor votes would be preferable.

[Violet]

You know Tracey, you really should have killed me. Or Mala.

[Violet]

But seriously. No night kill speculation?

You sound disappointed. Like you wanted us to night kill speculate.

[Violet]

Currently making a post that is quite large. I will be posting it some time tonight or tomorrow morning.

Its a complete game interaction examination. I'm not sure how well I'll be able to finish it, I'm not even halfway through day 1 and I'm already bored v.v

But I've already gotten that far. So there's that.

[Violet]

Might hold off on my post 'til you post yours.

Yes. Because what I say will totally influence who you think is scum between yourself and Mala.

Your method of waiting to post until others do is really telling about your thought processes. You're worried about what others think and are adapting your arguments to best fit the situation you find yourself in, rather than who you actually think is scummiest. You've done this a number of times throughout the game, and how nobody else has caught on to it is honestly beyond me.

It's blatant, it's obvious, and it's incredibly scummy.

[Violet]

Yesterday you said this:

It is between Mit and Mala.

and now you think I'm the scummiest somehow. Which is funny, because you seemed dead-set on Mala (or Mit, who is conveniently dead) being scum before you found out we were both going to vote you. Shaking things up by flip-flopping on the fly like that was probably the best thing you could have pulled in that situation as scum, but unfortunately it also exposes what you're really trying to accomplish here. You're trying to get either one of us lynched, it doesn't matter who, and right now you're desperate.

There are 47 pages of reads, complete with flips for all of the other players, interactions galore. There is no way on earth that one post in LyLo should be the deciding factor. By now you should at least have a good idea of who is scum one way or another, and by swinging back and forth faster than Willow Smith's hair it's really obvious you're just trying to pick off whoever you can between us.

[Violet]

If your case is dependent on my next big post, which is simply an oversized collection of data, then you don't really have a case, do you.

[Violet]

When it's done.

[Violet]

Trololololol i lied

I hardly did anything on the case.

If your case is dependent on my next big post, which is simply an oversized collection of data, then you don't really have a case, do you.

[Violet]

She's just mad because she slipped up several times this game.

Itsk, we all learn from our mistakes.

Though I must say, Tracey, your first one was RVSing your partner. That's a dead givaway.

[Violet]

I'm roughly half done with my post, but I found this gem.

Violet, help me bus Tracey.

That would be a class-A scumslip. Woops.

VOTE: Tracey

[Violet]

This is purely and entirely to study interactions. I'll be citing almost every interaction I see with Klick/Thor, with commentary.

I may be examining individual scummy actions (especially with relation to alignments we now know) in a followup post, which will be done at a later date.

---

Before I get to any of the examinations, I want to say that a lot of this I've probably said before in earlier posts, but it is a hell of a lot more pressing now because we know for a fact what Klick's alignment was and what his motivations probably were.

This is particularly evident when you look at who he found scummy and what reasonings he gave for his reads.

---

VOTE: Tracey for RQS. serious vote.

Finally. I was surprised so many people went along with the RQS.

Klick is town.
UNVOTE:

They RVS each other right off the bat, and then Tracey uses Klick's contention with RQS as evidence of his innocence. Klick ignored it and asked Tracey for her scum games. Tracey +2 scumpoints.

This post and the next one are concerning, Klick obviously responding to the post above him. They're casually discussing Cheery's alignment as if they have no concern about each other's alignment. This sort of behavior is repeated a lot, I don't feel like citing every example but I'll list major ones when I see them. But my main issue with this is that at the beginning, they were highly suspicious of each other, and then suddenly (without any alignment-related interactions in between) they're casual. Entirely too comfortable for two players who supposedly don't know each other's alignment. Tracey +1 scumpoints.

Here Tracey and Klick vote together, with no posts in between. Once again, casual conversation goes on, this time about who they're deciding to vote, before Tracey once again re-affirms her strong town read on Klick. Tracey +2 scumpoints.

Tracey gets on to Commie for sheeping her. #62 is where the "sheeping" first occurs. Things to note here: She attacks Commie for voting

a single page

after her, when he clearly cited his own reasons and had his own motivation. Then, when she switches votes to Commie, she has no problem with Klick voting

DIRECTLY AFTER HER

while citing no reason other than he agrees.

It also feels like she's threatening Commie if he disagrees with her town read on Klick. But let me repeat that last part because it's pretty important.

She attacks Commie for voting

a single page

after her, when he clearly cited his own reasons and had his own motivation. Then, when she switches votes to Commie, she has no problem with Klick voting

DIRECTLY AFTER HER

while citing no reason other than he agrees. She's completely satisfied with him dodging her only question. And if you've been paying any attention to how she is with me, you'll know how much she hates question dodging.

Why would it be permissible, then, when confirmed scum does it? Tracey +4 scumpoints.

Mala explains PMs meta and immediately after Klick votes her. Two posts later he drops everything for because Mala was suffering from a power outage. Mala +2 scumpoints.

Klick asks PM for his thoughts on Tracey. No other player, just Tracey. Tracey then follows up by broadening it up to everyone. Tracey +1 scumpoints.

Mala weakly accuses Klick of passive-aggressively defending PM. In hindsight, this was a really good call, as later PM flipped town. Mala +3 townpoints.

Klick votes Tracey, no explanation. Very weak, looks like distancing. Tracey +2 scumpoints.

Mala votes Klick citing previous game experience with him, and then she calls him out for not actually having a case. The next post she reiterates here points against Klick and makes it clear why she's voting him. I'm grouping the next several posts between them together as they are similar and about the same thing and don't necessarily all merit points. +2 townpoints for mentioning past games and +5 townpoints for exposing his lack of case on Tracey (+7 total townpoints).

Klicks infamous wall. He has issues with Tracey's #36 and #42, both of which really didn't contain much, and he deliberately ignored #32 which was Tracey's declaration of town-Klick. Very weak, once again looks like distancing rather than true reasoning (+2 SP). He calls out her #53 as "there's a lot of information there and none of it looks explicitly town" rather than addressing anything specific or scummy. Once again, weak reasoning, looks like distancing (+2 SP). He then goes on to dismiss Tracey's buddying of him (+3 SP). (+5 SP total)

Same post, this time looking at his interactions with Mala. He calls out her #82 as hypocrisy and her #104 for exposing PMs meta. Both

would

be decent reasons to find Mala scummy, except we know this is coming from scum. So +1 TP to Mala, if only because it looks like he really does want her lynched in contrast to his non-reasons for Tracey-scum.

Tracey wall. Her arguing meta with Klick is null, but explaining it to make herself look town to everyone else is not (+1 SP). Voting Mala without reasoning is also suspect because that's Klick's second scumread, which looks like this is a coordinated effort against her (+3 SP)(+4 total)

Class-A scumslip from Klick. I made a separate post from this one. You could try and argue that he was kidding, but considering that he really was scum, and the number of people left in the game, this really is an unmistakable scumslip. I almost feel bad because this is ridiculously obvious now that he flipped and there's nothing Tracey can do about it. But a scumslip is a scumslip. Game over. Tracey +25 scumpoints.

Tracey with her friendly "let's see more participation from you". I don't even feel like this merits a scumpoint but it certainly doesn't help her case.

Mala once again following up with asking for his non-existant case. +2 townpoints.

Tracey backing Klick up instead of letting him stand up for himself. Denies that there is no case. +4 scumpoints.

Mala exposing Klick for inactivity and lurking. +2 townpoints.

Tracey does the same thing except she's being friendly. With PM she was pretty irate and unsympathetic, but suddenly she's now asking kindly for him to replace out. We know how she is with inactivity from town, and this isn't it. +2 scumpoints.

Yay, you both accepted! Hi. Sheep me. Vio's scum. Mala's scum, too.

Hah. Hahaha. Hahahahaha. Quoted for hilarity.

Thor asks for my thoughts on Tracey. Looking out for his partner is cute, but also merits scumpoints. +1 SP.

Tracey's drawn out explanation with no accusation. No scumpoints, but once again, doesn't help her case. Reading down, they have a casual conversation, no question of each other's alignment (+2 SP) and then Tracey explicitly states she did not call Thor scum (+2 SP)(+4 total)

I generally find that scum is quite likely to put their partners into their scumlists. Klick had Tracey on it in and out, and Thor's initial scumteam "guess" had Tracey on it along with an easylynch town. +2 SP.

Thor once again asking for thoughts on Tracey. He's not doing this with other people, just Tracey. Cute, and scummy. +2 SP.

Tangential, but Milquetoast is actually a minor insult. I found this out recently. The more you know...

It's hard to summarize the ungodly amount of interactions between Thor and Tracey, but my feeble attempt at doing so, I would describe it as either tangential/irrelevant, conversation-like, and blatantly argumentative. They're feigning bad vibes towards each other as a form of distancing without any of the pitfalls (bussing, people actually suspecting one of them). And on top of this, it's hard to verbalize that sort of behavior. Smart, but not smart enough. Major givaway: Thor has his vote on Tracey the entire time, and still has casual conversation. He doesn't really suspect her. He flipped scum. +4 SP.

After a near-lynch scenario, he does a 180 and calls her town. If the lynch had went through, I suspect he would have been praised as town for finding scum. We know he was scum, however, which gives us the advantage of seeing it how it really is. He uses her near-lynch as leverage to call her town. +3 SP.

In the meantime, they join forces and push wagons on myself and PM.

I don't feel like reading the rest because I addressed most of that at the time, and it's getting copiously long. But I've seen more than enough to make a proper decision.

---

Things I found surprising: How Tracey received no townpoints in relation to Klick. I expected at least a few. Also: How few scumpoints Mala received. I expected a decent amount of scumpoints to go her way.

Final results

Tracey: 62 scumpoints
Mala: -11 scumpoints

I am very happy with my vote.

[Violet]

Originally you tried to get Mala lynched and it's only because we both were going to vote you that you changed your reads.

[Violet]

That one was a straight scumslip. There's no mistaking it.

[Violet]

Vio, work on the tunneling please.

I didn't ask for your advice. Work on the buddying and your logic skills, they're both terrible.

[Violet]

It's.... it's ok. You did what you had to do.