Micro 488: Forest Fire - Endgame

[pieguyn]

a

[pieguyn]

Also, pieguy is probably scum.

how'd you figure it out?

[pieguyn]

via mod error (to both the above)

-Nati

nooooOOOO

[pieguyn]

I have a town read on ffery. I don't see scum-her walking in here and proceeding to immediately start pushing Empire. the same goes for me given Nacho had explicitly pointed out in their team mafia PT that I tend to be very critical of people pushing me.

I'm not sure if RBD would think to push me the way they've done so far if they were scum, although this is mostly gut. zmuffin has had a lot of trouble in the past reading my town posts as "forced", whereas Nati pegged me immediately in our one scum-town game bc she (correctly) identified my posts as forced; what we're seeing here is Nati pushing me over forced posts. I think this makes slightly more sense from town than scum in that Nati would be more likely to think she's onto something reading my posts as forced, whereas zmuffin would be hesitant to push it - on the other hand if they were scum I would expect zmuffin would be slightly more likely to comment on his partner's supposed read on me either way.

Yuriko might be town for 102.

mixed feelings on Quil. most of his stances have been so weak I could poke a hole in them with my finger (96 in particular made made me think this, it felt more like an easy throwaway stance to look like he was accomplishing something) and while I see him posting a lot of stuff I don't see him actually making any kind of push anywhere; the first post he made really pushing anyone (in this case, myself/BBM) was 104 which was directly in response to GB asking him for it. I liked the town read on Yuriko, but even then he gave himself an opportunity to back out of it.

GB is scum, or at the very least their push on me is one of the most awful things I think I've ever seen. I haven't been fond of their other posts, either. more elaboration on this incoming.

[pieguyn]

I didn't like Quilfords early few posts (Was the one to bring it up to Empire initially), they felt very awkward but I don't agree with Empire at all about Quilfords Post 51 where he considers us being scum, I'm reading that as more of a town-tell than a scum-tell here.Also not seeing Empires town read on Yuriko at all so he'll have to explain that one to me when he's awake and sober. Similarly not seeing his Sangres town read, hoping it's based on more than just him liking the manner she brought up meta-checks earlier because that read as extremely weak and something easily fakeable to me.

About the only town read I'm semi-confident in at this point is Bork, like his "There's a few things I'm monitoring but don't want to butt in on" in Post 38 mirrors what I was doing at the time, also like his recent questioning with Quilford, comes across as him genuinely attempt to get a read there.

the bork town read jumped out at me. taking a laid-back/observing approach is relatively easy to fake as scum. and "genuinely attempting to get a read" is completely unsubstantiated (I'm interested in what, specifically, made you think this).

in general, I feel most of the positions in 63 were ass-backwards; I think sangres is likely town and don't really see how he's seeing bork's posts (which I think have been easy to fake for the most part) as more town.

I don't see how that'd make scumhunting more difficult or harder for her to do especially in an early game position like this where there wouldn't be any flips normally. Also it's not as if flips are hidden it's just a case of lynched town can still post which shouldn't impact scumhunting again? So yeah, I don't see her "worries" as genuine at all. I'm going to be p disappointing if that's what Empire is reading as town here.

I don't buy this stance either. it essentially amounted to him calling Yuriko scummy for being confused early game - the obvious hole here is that it's still relatively easy for a town player to be confused early game in a normal setup. thus, claiming that her being confused early game here because the setup is practically the same as a normal setup is disingenuous. I also think it's pretty fucking obvious Yuriko's confusion about treestumps comes from just not knowing how the tree stump role works and thus not realizing it doesn't actually hinder town here; that he'd miss this also comes off disingenuous.

Similarly Pie has been online a lot since our vote on him and the lack of in-thread reaction is making me feel more comfortable with our vote.

this is one of the most lol things I've seen and I don't believe that a player of your calibre would consider this a cogent argument.

consider this. was I actually posting in any other games in the time I was on this site? I was periodically browsing the site, but I was busy and it takes a lot more time effort to sit down and read/digest a game than it does to periodically browse the forums and make occasional posts here and there. the fact that I hadn't even formed any reads yet after game start adds to this (although strictly speaking I had the weak town read on ffery since her pregame posts, but, really); you were expecting me to come in here, with no reads, and do ... what, exactly?

it is also noted that your two primary scum reads entirely come down to "forced posts" and "being active elsewhere but not posting here" - and when you did have a play-based scum read, you dropped it immediately (and looking back at it again it was based mostly on forced posts). do you currently have any scum reads based on play?

p-edit:

@Pie - The quoted bit below reads like utter bullshit - We haven't "pushed" you at all, I've merely voted you saying that your posts read over-the-top (Something that both Ffyer and Muffin have agreed with) and mentioned that I dislike you being online but taking an age to get in here for content (Which did occur).

voting me is pretty fucking obviously a push. this is even more so the case when you have had said vote on me for the entire game and have continually laid out additional reasons for me being scum over the course of the game. so, how is that not constituted a "push"?

this is a semantic argument at best and disingenuous at worst.

[pieguyn]

also, re: the last post, I refuse to believe you're actually calling my push on you an OMGUS; it's fairly obvious it's because I think the *way* you pushed me was awful

that entire post makes no sense, actually

[pieguyn]

vote: GB

[pieguyn]

what makes a stance weak btw? because if it's not being willing to commit to an alignment one way or the other this early then you're not looking so hot either

it's partly the reasoning you were using for most of them, partly that it didn't appear you had any actual scum reads until GB prompted you for them

although to be honest, I think I've done a pretty good job committing to alignments one way or the other so far

@ffery:

can you walk me through your town read on bork? I've thought most of what he's done so far has been fakeable.

[pieguyn]

Uh, I don't really know what you're trying to say here but I feel it's _probably_ a good idea to clarify this now: Nati hasn't actually posted on RBD yet! Those posts were all me, so you're not actually seeing Nati do anything yet. Trololol, I guess?

either way my point was that for you-scum the read on me would be an easy thing to comment on to appear like you were being proactive. instead, I thought I was seeing you being hesistant to form a read there, which is what I thought was town about it.

if it's still relevant, I really feel I should let you know that every time you've read my posts as forced oustide of TH upick 1 I've been town. I would really like if you would attempt to read me in a different manner besides how forced my posts are. but, make of that what you will.

As for #102, I'm feeling a bit ambivalent about it, actually. Trying to decide whether those last two lines are genuine or not. Want to see her non-setup-related thoughts on the game.

I thought it looked town mostly bc I thought scum attempting to fake setup confusion would go about it in a different way. usually when I've seen scum faking setup confusion, it has a lot less depth and thought than what she did here. and I actually thought most of her thought processes made enough sense for a town player to think (a lot of the time faked setup confusion is just really stupid). I could easily enough see someone being legitimately concerned the setup was scum sided and, subsequently, not being able to get any reads as a result of being hung up about the setup. if you look hard enough you can also see her essentially saying "all these people know each other and I have no idea how to find my footing in this" (3rd sentence), which strikes me as a more town attitude to have.

essentially, what she did read more like paranoid town as opposed to scum pushing an agenda. YMMV.

[pieguyn]

Also would like you to talk a bit more about your sangers town read since it seems to be based on them "pushing" you/empire and I haven't really felt ffery actually doing any pushing so much as sitting back and watching things unfold (which seems pretty standard for ffery and not really alignment-indicative).

Also don't really see where the (what I'm perceiving as) aggression on GB is coming from, given their stance on you is fairly understandable and I don't think their other reads are as bad as you're saying they are (or, at the very least, they're not much different from my own and you don't seem to have a problem with the reads I've stated). #112 feels like a giant overreaction

-Nati

the ffery town read is entirely about her confidence. this probably sounds really dumb but that's how I always read her and it's always been right, so it works for me. I don't think she'd immediately jump in and push Empire first thing in the game if she was scum here for this reason (it would be a more bold move than what I'm used to from her).

the strongest point (and what makes me pretty sure they're scum here) is them saying "lol, ur posting on site but not posting here" without actually thinking about it (and the accompanied lack of any other scum read based on anything play-related). I think they're too smart for that. it felt more like an easy throwaway reason they could pull up to add to the scum read on me.

[pieguyn]

the above 2 posts literally made me lol. please hold.

[pieguyn]

Mayhaps. But I think that's a whole two games you're talking about there (that bork game and touhou upick 3 - although I don't think how forced your posts were in those games was why I was scum-reading you) unless I'm forgetting something? What was the point of saying this?

I'm saying this bc, put simply, I've just come into this game; and I already have several scum reads on me along with Regfan pulling the "flood the thread with bullshit and hope nobody realizes that's what I'm doing" routine.

/shrug

that's really all there is to it. I'm worried that people will be swayed by his influence as a player and wind up scum reading me for poor/incorrect reasons as a result. so I'm especially hoping in this game that you should be able to see that I'm town here in due time and that he's blatantly making shit up here, rather than getting caught up in it.

(and yes, I'm still writing up my response to that wall - for when he invariably comes in here and claims I'm "ignoring" him)

[pieguyn]

Waiting for conversations to play out naturally in the manner Bork was to get reads makes sense as town (It's what I was doing at the time), you're able to see how peoples conversations play out and then assess their motivations afterwards whereas scum are more incentive into pushing themselves into a conversation to a) Seem contributive while really not doing much or b) Manipulate the conversation.

The entire point is that the "sit back and wait" approach is really fucking easily faked.

Even if this was correct (which I don't think it is) - scum have just as much motivation to wait for conversations to play out naturally if they think it's what they'd do as town.

Regardless, there are positive benefits for scum lurking as well (the obvious being that it's easier, and avoids drawing attention to themselves when done in moderation). So saying that scum have more incentive to push themselves into a conversation is false.

Actively lurking and avoiding a thread is a scum-tell and scum have a lot of reason to do so in a playerlist like this where scum are going to have severe difficulty a) Getting people to misread them and b) Pushing through mslynches but again continue to pretend that a) We were "hard pushing you" (Which is not something we were doing at all and b) Voted you for being online elsewhere (Not why we voted you).

It's like you didn't even read my post.

As I said, I was not "actively lurking" nor "ignoring the thread". The entire reason I wasn't around and posting was because IT TAKES A SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER AMOUNT OF TIME AND EFFORT TO ACTUALLY READ GAMES THAN IT DOES TO JUST BROWSE THE SITE.

I was busy literally all fucking day. I had time to check the site sporadically. I did not have time to have a close look at the thread, analyze posts, and connect all of it together to form reads.

So, it's as I asked before. What were you expecting me to post? You were expecting me to come in here with no reads and hardly any coherent thoughts on the game and do ... what?

Put objectively, this should really be obvious. But rather than addressing it, and what my motivations actually were as town vs. scum for it, you just continue to flood the same bullshit "lol, avoiding the thread is a scum tell" without considering what the possibilities actually were here. I don't think you'd actually be this bad here if you were town.

Forced / Genuine posting is p standard terminology for when you find a post scummy/townish so you attempting to belittle our scum reads because they're based on "Forced posting" especially in the early game is idiotic and if you were reading our posts you'd notice that I have a scum read on Yuriko and that it's not really a scum-read on Molla but more of a "I find his posts/play underwhelming and am keeping an eye there" read.

"Forced posting" is inherently bullshit because, if there's no reason someone has for making said "forced posts" as scum, it comes down to playstyle 99% of the time. If you think something is "forced", just because "lol it comes off as forced", the simple explanation is that you just aren't used to their way of posting as opposed to it actually mean anything.

If someone is forcing something, as in, stretching to find reasoning to push a read for strategic reasons as scum, then yes, something being "forced" absolutely would be scummy. But that is very clearly not the case here. You're literally calling me scum because I decided to joke around in pregame and apparently the way I did it was forced. For ... what, exactly? Or ... why would I joke around like that as scum if I wouldn't also do it as town?

I have literally nothing to gain as scum by posting that. And that much should be obvious.

The last sentence is entirely semantic. You're obviously suspicious of him. And my point was that there is an extreme lack of criticism of anything actually play-related coming from you so far - which is more likely to come from scum than town as it is more difficult for scum to come up with legitimate scum reads as opposed to scum reads based on "he's posting elsewhere but not here". The scum read on Yuriko was similarly poor for reasons I pointed out already (second paragraph of 112) - but even then, if you want to argue semantics, you did not clearly state a scum read on Yuriko until bork explicitly poked you over it and it was pretty obviously a weak read.

Empire says this is one of the worst things he has ever seen and I think I agree,

if you were reading the game you'd have noticed our vote wasn't initially on you and was rather on Quilford (We disliked his early posts and wanted to get a reaction out of him, the vote on him a mix between a pressure-vote and a scum-read) the same was the case on our vote on you. It wasn't a "everyone lynch Pie, he's scum, we're positive!" vote at all, it was a vote saying "I feel more comfortable being here" and an added "I feel better about the vote knowing he's been online but avoided this".

So you making out our vote was a "push" is ridiculously scummy, like insanely scummy - it shows you haven't read the thread properly and rather are just pushing back on us.

The entire bolded is what I'm referring to when I say "push" here.

You don't have to be attempting to lynch someone in order to be pushing them. You can push them for the sake of pressure, reactions, developing content, etc. You thought I was scum; you put a vote on me to add pressure/get more info. And when you started noticing more things pointing to me being scum, you pointed it out in thread and tried to draw attention/encourage other people to see what you were seeing.

That sure as hell seems like a push to me. Even if you're not "omgomg pie is scum lynch her", you're still calling me scum and attempting to draw attention to and pressure me. How the fuck is that not a push?

That you actually think that I'm scum because I couldn't possibly think this is a "push" (and feel the need to "change my definition of what a 'push' is" for whatever reason - which is still one of the dumbest things I've ever heard and part of why I do not see your push on me coming from a town mindset) is complete nonsense.

And I literally just said that it is not about the fact that you're pushing me. That would be dumb. It's the *WAY* you're doing it. I think you're scum because I think your push on me comes from a scum mindset - because you're saying things that don't make any sense for town to think, and there isn't any indication you're actually considering the motivations behind what I'm doing. Like, your push on me was literally "these posts come off forced"; then "she's avoiding the thread"; then this string of wall posts where you're arguing shit like "you're changing your definition of what a 'push' is" - without considering that, hey, WHY would I fucking lie about something so dumb and easily fact-checkable when I have nothing to gain by doing so, or attempting to understand where I'm coming from when I say you're pushing me - and "you're pushing back on me" while ignoring what I had actually been saying. I literally had just explicitly said it was because the *WAY* you were doing it was awful.

So what am I supposed to do with that?

Continue to blatantly lie, it's fun to point out how glaringly obvious you are now. Heck anyone looking at Post 122 at this point will see you've massively you've changed what our 'push'/vote/comment on you was. Not to mention we never voted you for being online (Which you're trying to make out is the case) nor do we have 'no scum reads elsewhere', it's p easy to see that I've got one on Yuriko and initially had one on Quilford (His recent tone reads town though).

LOL

This is a blatant lie. I literally never tried to say you voted me for being online. Your whole point was that I had been online for a long time without posting and that I was scum "active-lurking" for it. I was pointing out why this was incorrect - and why it completely discounts what my motivations as town vs. scum actually would have been to post or not post.

[pieguyn]

COME OUT AND PLAY, REGFAN

You don't get to write a bunch of walls and then go "herp derp, wall wars are anti-town". I, on the other hand, love wall wars, so good fucking luck pushing any more blatantly false arguments against me here.

I need to eat/shower. I'll respond to other posts when I get back.

[pieguyn]

pieguyn and Gentlemen Bastards are giving me a massive headache

are you sure you guys don't just have different definitions of what a 'push' is
or differing opinions on the levels of conviction required to pursue someone on page 5

coz i think if you do that would solve like 80% of your present disagreements

this is pretty much what's going on. the thing is, that's not what I think is scummy about this.

in general terms, my major reason for reading Regfan is scum here is that a lot of the arguments he's pushing don't feel like he's actually trying to consider possibilities, or taking into account the motivations behind what I'm doing here. this is the case for ... basically every argument he's pushed against me. it feels almost robotic, in that he's entirely arguing semantics, or pointing out irrelevant stuff without reading context - like he wants to look like he believes what he's saying, despite the fact none of it, in actuality, holds any water. on this specific point, if you look at what happened, yeah, it's obvious we have different opinions on what a "push" is; the problem is that he actually took this and SAID I WAS SCUM for it.

to recap what happened:

106 - I say Regfan's push on me is awful.
121 - Regfan says what he's doing is not a "push". he then says me making what he did out as a push is "ridiculously scummy".
125 - Regfan then says I'm "changing the definition of what a 'push' is" and "lying" about it.

...

what you did here is what I would expect a typical town player to think in response to this. the obvious conclusion here is that we have different definitions of what a "push" is. this is not, however, what Regfan did. he immediately calls me scum for pushing what he did as a push - instead of thinking through why the situation might have actually turned out the way it did. like, suppose I am scum here. why would I make up calling this a "push" if I wouldn't have done the same thing as town? what strategic advantage do I gain for lying about it when, if I actually *was* lying about it for some reason, you could just as easily look at the fucking thread and tell as much? why doesn't the exact same argument I made work if you CTRL+F "push" and replace it with "mild pressure"? it's entirely semantic, given my point was that the reasoning he used for it was awful - yet he's picking on it to make it look like he has a huge point here and like I'm "lying", when it's in actuality really dumb for someone to actually lie about it

the argument re: me "active lurking" is another example. he didn't stop to consider the context of it. it felt like he just thought "oh, 'avoiding the thread' is a good looking reason for reading someone as scum" and pushed it without considering why I might have been doing it. if you look at my active history, you'll notice that 1. I'm actually not that active on site; 2. basically all my posts have been contentless posts outside of any games. the obvious explanation here is that I just haven't had enough time to sit down with this game - but he didn't stop to consider it. this is the first thing I noticed and is the primary reason I came out the gate really strongly about it, since it really made no sense and came off as entirely disingenuous.

same thing with him claiming I'm apparently changing the definition of what a "push" is. WHY WOULD I LIE ABOUT SOMETHING SO STUPID WHEN I HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN FROM IT AND WHEN IT COULD BE EASILY POINTED OUT IN THE GAME THREAD? that is actually one of the dumbest things I think I've ever read and I don't believe anyone who is highly competent would think this is a valid argument. it's the same as before.

same thing with the push on me for my read on you. I couldn't really care less if you're "fence-sitting" here. that's often a bullshit argument unless there's a strategic reason for it (i.e., otoh, there being 2 competing wagons and someone going "hurrdurr, I think wagon X might be scum but wagon Y might also be scum" - that is what fence-sitting actually is). there is nothing scummy about someone not feeling strongly about a read or considering possibilities either way; what I didn't like was the reasoning you were using. and the thing is, I mentioned this already (115) and HE'S STILL PUSHING IT (130). when someone entirely ignores evidence that indicates that the angle they want to push is wrong, it's often because they don't actually give a shit about whether what they're pushing is correct or not, hence, scum.

this can also function as a tl;dr case, I guess. I hope this better explains where I'm coming from here.

[pieguyn]

i.e. Where was she pushing Empire? If you are simply referring to her asking who wrote that post and a follow-up off-hand comment (34), then what confidence are you talking about?

actually, I think just the fact she did it is sufficient as a town tell

I think if she wanted to fake paranoia on somebody, she'd be less inclined to go after arguably the strongest slot in the game (both of who are usually renowned for being obviously town as town) and more inclined to go after anyone else (ex. someone like you for whom it'd make more sense). it's possible I'm just reading way too much into it, though.

hey pie how much do you enjoy being scum?

I used to hate it. I've enjoyed it more recently, though - mostly bc I've figured out how to actually look somewhat town as scum and manipulate my meta to some extent. plus I've seen a lot of shitfest games recently, which I enjoy more as scum bc you don't have to cut through it all. (I do tend to feel guilty playing scum though. especially in postgame when you can go back and see my posts for what they are :<)

pie do you really think this

yep

I mean, maybe I'm just overly paranoid, but I've had a lot of success with the "spam the thread with posts and hope people accept it as truth" technique, both as scum and using it as a scum tell (Mala in TM). this is more so the case when it's someone with a huge reputation doing it, which I think Regfan has even in this playerlist.

[pieguyn]

Spoiler: 130

and then in Post 112 stated that we've had our vote on her the whole game (If she was reading the game she'd have noticed us vote Quilford, get a reaction and then move to her) and that we'd 'continuously laid out additional reasons for her being scum' when we'd mentioned her a total of two times.

eh. my interpretation was that you voted Quil immediately, but then changed your mind relatively quickly and remained on me for the majority of the game.

I think we can agree that you pressured me more strongly than you did him. and the fact that it happened within a small timeframe doesn't change the fact that you've been gradually pushing me harder as the game has continued, no.

So essentially she's had a huge scum-overaction towards our vote on her and then proceeded to misrep all of our prior posts trying to make it seem like we've got no reads elsewhere (Already gone into two town reads I'm p confident on, two that I've touched on and a scum read on Yuriko) and that we've been 'non-stop' pushing her which wasn't the case.

as I said - the reason I came out the gate so strongly on this is bc your first point on me (being scum for "avoiding the thread") came off as extremely disingenuous and ignored the context behind it. it felt like you thought "she's avoiding the thread" would be a good angle to push and pushed it without objectively analyzing why I wasn't posting.

I think I've responded to the rest of it elsewhere. correct me if I haven't.

Spoiler: 136

1) no comment. I don't have a problem with your explanation; but I primarily think you're scum at this point for your reaction to/

~push~

on me.

2) the entire point was that the reasoning behind it was bad

like, you can say that it wasn't a strong tell. OK. I still don't think it was a good reason for pushing anything, even if it wasn't a strong tell. the obvious conclusion was still that I just didn't have enough time.

your thought process here didn't make sense, even factoring in that you didn't have it as a strong read

3) I think it's easier to push "xxx post is forced" reads when you're scum bc you don't have to logically justify it. thus, when the majority of someone's scum reads wind up being due to forced posts, it raises a red flag bc it indicates they're not actually trying to scum hunt or question why people are doing what they're doing in the game.

as stated before, I primarily think you're scum at this point for your reaction to me. I'm not sure what we have to gain by discussing this.

4) yes, but I find it very difficult to believe that, even among the people who *had* posted, the best you could come up with were posts seeming forced and then the angle on Yuriko (which essentially amounted to "her setup frustration isn't genuine" - which is another argument based around non-genuine posts). despite a number of people not posting, I still thought Quil might be scum for reasons which were based on play, and held the opinion that most of bork's posts were easily fakeable and thus that I was hesitant to town read them.

5) you are continuing to argue semantics here. it's pretty fucking obvious this is not what I meant when I said "push", and the way you're continuing to push this is part of why I do not see a town approach in your play here - reread 139 (and/or see response to 144.2) for why

Spoiler: 144

1) it was pretty obvious ffery was suspicious of that one Empire post she quoted and decided to ask about it to confirm/deny if she was attributing it to the wrong person. that is a push, even though it is a very weak push. and again, the way you're continuing to push this is part of why I do not see a town approach in your play here. why

I'm pretty sure I mentioned this already (112)? at that point in the game, it was a weak town read; I thought it was more likely to come from town-her but it wasn't enough for a "strong town read" or anything. I felt more sure they were town after 93; ffery and Nacho know that I tend to be very critical of ppl who make pushes on me and I'm pretty sure she would be less inclined to posture for a scum read on me as a result.

2) if you're town, and want any hope of me reading you as town here, you shouldn't make horrible posts like this

saying it's "easily explainable" is stupid and serves as an easy way to discredit what my argument actually is. the entire point is that nothing you're accusing me of actually has any scum motivation, and that this much is obvious to anyone who thinks about it and analyzes it objectively. you're just claiming I'm "lying", "misrep'ing", etc. when everything you're claiming I'm "lying" or "misrep'ing" about is in actuality really silly for scum to actually lie about. this is not a town approach; on the other hand, it is fairly typical of scum who want to look like they have a point when they really don't.

additionally, I've already explained that I'm not pushing that you're calling me scum for "being online". you called me scum for "active lurking", and I was merely explaining why this was not, in fact, correct. you kept saying I was being "active on site, but not posting here" - any mention I made of me being "online" was in reference to this. this is fucking simple shit.

[pieguyn]

if you're town and want *any* hope of us working things out here, 139/the second half of 144 is what we should be discussing, given everything else is related to stuff that happened before we blew up at each other (which is where the majority of this is coming from).

and for the record, it makes no sense that you're claiming I would be "unable to manipulate you" and that I'd have to push back as scum when you yourself admitted all your reasons for scum reading me up to that point weren't strong

[pieguyn]

because I didn't have any time to do anything until the point where I entered the game? I didn't see any point in posting when I didn't have any reads (and was incapable of interacting with anyone enough to form solid reads at that point).

[pieguyn]

the second point is a little more meaningful to me, though the only way anyone gets data for forming reads is from the content provided (or not provided) by other players.

I would have liked to see signs of life from you in the game thread

sorry ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

for when you get around to reading that, 139 is a summation of what I got out of it. would be interested to know if you think him pushing me for "active lurking" and his subsequent reaction (claiming I pushed he was calling me scum for "being online") was reasonable in particular.

[pieguyn]

I've already explained that I'm not pushing that you're calling me scum for "being online". you called me scum for "active lurking", and I was merely explaining why this was not, in fact, correct. you kept saying I was being "active on site, but not posting here" - any mention I made of me being "online" was in reference to this. this is fucking simple shit.

This is NOT what happened.

(I thought I was never going to be but one of those large-text players, looks like I'm wrong).

If you're town I'll give you a few minutes to reread our entire interaction, my posts or the whole game, whatever you need to and rescind this. Go.

Spoiler:

Similarly Pie has been online a lot since our vote on him

and the lack of in-thread reaction is making me feel more comfortable with our vote.

this is one of the most lol things I've seen and I don't believe that a player of your calibre would consider this a cogent argument.

consider this.

was I actually posting in any other games in the time I was on this site? I was periodically browsing the site, but I was busy and it takes a lot more time effort to sit down and read/digest a game than it does to periodically browse the forums and make occasional posts here and there.

the fact that I hadn't even formed any reads yet after game start adds to this (although strictly speaking I had the weak town read on ffery since her pregame posts, but, really); you were expecting me to come in here, with no reads, and do ... what, exactly?

Actively lurking and avoiding a thread is a scum-tell and scum have a lot of reason to do so in a playerlist like this where scum are going to have severe difficulty a) Getting people to misread them and b) Pushing through mslynches

but again continue to pretend that a) We were "hard pushing you" (Which is not something we were doing at all and b) Voted you for being online elsewhere (Not why we voted you).

the strongest point (and what makes me pretty sure they're scum here)

is them saying "lol, ur posting on site but not posting here"

without actually thinking about it (and the accompanied lack of any other scum read based on anything play-related). I think they're too smart for that. it felt more like an easy throwaway reason they could pull up to add to the scum read on me.

Continue to blatantly lie, it's fun to point out how glaringly obvious you are now. Heck anyone looking at Post 122 at this point will see you've massively you've changed what our 'push'/vote/comment on you was.

Not to mention we never voted you for being online

(Which you're trying to make out is the case) nor do we have 'no scum reads elsewhere', it's p easy to see that I've got one on Yuriko and initially had one on Quilford (His recent tone reads town though).

I don't see what I'm missing here.

[pieguyn]

What actually is your read on me then?
-b

null. I haven't read anything you've posted either way so far.

Super skimmed those walls because just woke up and fuck that but,

Pieguyn - your read and reasoning on sangres is complete trash especially when coupled with your lol ffery Bork hasn't done anything fakable yet, which is also complete trash reasoning to throw shade when your throwing a hissy fit about "forced" being a shit reason for a read. (Didn't know you felt so strongly about the forced thing, so that's interesting).

Anywho ffery hasnt done anything unfakeable yet and if your going to apply that to one person for giving a read why ignore it for another? Why wouldn't she ask empire a question again? I feel pretty confident that she would, as scum, want to look like she was reading empire, and lol if you think she wouldn't throw fake suspicion or paranoia on someone because they might look at her, especially when her other head is nacho. And you've actually been somewhat decent at reading nacho and I woukd expect in your reasoning for that weird town read for you to reference that.

Also your response to gb feels a bit overblown for a page five push for a nebulous forced post and being active elsewhere thing. (I realize that this might sound weird coming from me, but it feels overblown even by my standards). There are a couple people here who've been pretty decent at reading you, but In your fit over the reasoning I'm not getting a feeling of fuck you regfan there are people who can read me, I get obvtown when I'm town so you'll see, kinda vibe which I would expect if you're this mad. Instead you seem mad at the reasoning, which is concerning considering its a page four scum read and by definition is going to be weak.

But woukd super duper love an explanation for why you're so mad over the reasoning for that while at the same time going "Bork hasn't done anything fakable yet!" which is well you get the idea.

it definitely did not come off like it was a weak read. this is more so the case when it was apparently enough for me to be their top scum read.

I am pretty pissed off in general. I've hated this game so far because as soon as I came in I've had to deal with this bullshit "lol, pie being online and not posting = scum". *if* GB is town, it's fucking dumb that they would actually have thought I was scum because of that (I legitimately find it offensive. what the fuck am I supposed to say to that when it was entirely bc I was busy)? everything they've pushed after that has been practically as bad - and when I point out as much, they blatantly ignore it and keep making shit up anyway. and if they're scum, then wow? fuck them for trying to act like it's a passable reason for scum reading me.

I would understand if they would acknowledge that it was entirely caused by me just not being here. but then they act like they were actually justified in thinking that. I absolutely take offense to that, because it's fucking stupid. and I hate having my posts called "forced" because I have that pushed on me all the damn time regardless of alignment and I'm sick of it. it's a dumb reason for scum reading someone unless they had a strategic benefit for it or it's really really obviously forced.

it's difficult, if not impossible, to have any confidence when the person pushing this is REGFAN and I'm by nature horrible at working with people in the first place, especially when I'm this upset. I don't believe people will actually be willing to believe they're scum here - and if they're town they're giving no indication they'd ever have any intention of backing off. which is just annoying and kills my motivation to want to do anything regardless of what their alignment actually is. honestly, I really shouldn't be signing up for any games right now because I don't have much motivation to play in the first place (the only reason I knew about/joined this game was bc Empire invited me).

anyway, I have a *very* high opinion of bork's scum game. I thought he was really obviously town in Tales. every time I worried about that slot D1 I always (incorrectly) reminded myself that bork's posting would not have come from scum. I'm pretty sure that's a factor in how hesitant I am to town read you all here and I'm wondering if other people feel differently to me about this. I'm hoping if you're town I'll be able to read it off your posts. fwiw, I want to say this is a good start, but I'm in desperate need of sleep.

I am sorry if I sound jaded.

[pieguyn]

I'll run a little summary for you Pie;

1. I found Quilfords early posts as awkward, had a very weak gut-scum read on him from them, Empire agreed and then voted Quilford.

2. I didn't mind Quilfords reaction and subsequent posts and moved my vote to you because I also found your reaction towards Muffin as forced.

3. Stated reads, remembered to mention the Molla read we currently had which included the fact that he'd been active elsewhere on the site while having a really underwhelming post in the thread. At the same time mentioned that we'd both seen you online too which made me more comfortable with my vote.

So there's two comments about you and two comments only

1) Your comment being forced to Muffin and 2) You having been online when we checked the site.

So you coming in and saying that the push is "awful/scum" would have to be about one of those two things yes? Can't be 1) since Ffyer and Muffin made the exact same comment and you didn't call their comments "awful/scum". So logically the sole "awful" element that you're claiming about our push is 2) which is stating that you were online which

again

was not the reason you were voted and was a comment mentioned afterwards which again was a one-sentence line (And is well known that I and others consider it a scum-tell even if a weak one) so your confidence/retaliation doesn't add up with the context of what occurred int he game at all

you can't possibly be this fucking dense

you're acting like the fact that it wasn't your original reason for voting me somehow disqualifies it as part of your reasoning for pushing me. this. is. not. the. fucking. case. it doesn't matter if you hadn't come up with it at the point where you voted me. you still took it and used it as a reason for me being scum. THIS IS WHERE MY ISSUE WITH IT LIES.

unless you're going to claim that even _after_ you came up with it, you didn't think it provided extra justification for your vote?

I have no fucking idea what to say to this. if you're town, please step back and realize that not everyone uses "push" in the same way you do, because I have no fucking idea what to say to this.

[pieguyn]

I'm going to sleep. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I'm really just not in a good mood right now.

I'm hoping I'll be able to step back a bit from this point forward.

[pieguyn]

Part of this is selfish. I'd like an enjoyable game, and I want to be able to read you, and I read you based on how you're reading the game/people, and right now I'm having difficulty with that.

Look, I'm sorry. I came into the game and the first thing that happened was I saw Regfan - a player I usually hold a *lot* of respect for - and Empire (the same, + he's the one who told me about this game in the first place) pushing me for what I perceived as really bad reasons and I overreacted. Based on what everyone else is saying, I can see someone else thinking their initial reasons for scum reading me are reasonable. I had a brief look at the Westeros PT; I don't really see the similarities you're seeing (he had a lot more on you than saying your posts were "forced", for instance, and could actually point out stuff in your play he found scummy), but I'm aware you have more experience with him than me and I'm suffering from some about of bias here.

The issue I'm continuing to have even after reading it again is his subsequent reaction when I first pushed him. He literally said I was "changing the definition of 'push' around" and that it was scum motivated. When in reality that's really fucking stupid and, even *if* I was scum here, I would have no reason to lie about something like that (as opposed to it being a huge misunderstanding regardless of what my alignment actually is) - and when I pointed this out, he just shrugged it off as "lol, scum lie/misrep". Just ... what? It's not abou "scum lying", it's common fucking sense. I wouldn't let that kind of argument fly in a newbie game, and I absolutely would not expect it, ever, from someone good at the game like him. The only thing that I'm left with is that he's scum nitpicking on every single thing possible in order to look like he has a point here. I'm considering the possibility that he is similar to me in that he gets excited when he thinks he's onto scum, which lead to him attempting to pick apart everything he could - since that's something that happens to me a lot and I actually kind of agree the level of conviction he had was a slight town tell.

Re ffery: My reasoning for this is pretty heavily influenced by TM. Check out Gestalt's PT and look at the kind of stuff Nacho was saying about me. Like this:

Subject: Team Mafia: Gestalt

Pieguy is the biggest threat on that list by far: she's thorough as hell when she gets reasonably sure on a scum read, and she's ridiculously transparent and passionate but doesn't fall into bad arguments when emotional like many people do. She does think that her scum and town game are horribly obvious and as such

has a tendency to push back pretty hard on scumreads on her (this has a tendency to stick on experienced players more than inexperienced ones)

. Her weakness lies in that she can doubt herself sometimes, so as long as you don't suspect her for dumb reasons, you don't make too many obvious mistakes, and you give her reasons to want to read you as town, you can put her off a couple of days even if she has a scum read on you. She would be my top choice of a nightkill by far in this playerlist.

First off I feel I should clarify what actually happened in that newbie game where Nacho lynched me. I wasn't in that game the entire time. The previous owner of the slot (notsci) was busy and asked me to sub in for him. And he had a plan going where he was going to attempt to launch a push on notsci D2. So notsci replacing out and me replacing in kind of fucked him over. The only option he had was to ignore it and push me anyway. And the only reason he successfully lynched me was because that town consisted of a bunch of newer players who didn't know my playstyle and had a tendency to read emotional posting as scummy.

In any other player base, ex. NY169, I don't think he'd be inclined to launch a push on me. Especially when I've had a tendency in the past to look really town in response to people pushing on me (you could argue this isn't the case for this game, but, eh).

I think Nacho has a tendency to buddy up me when he's scum (see Capcom). And I think openly posturing for a scum read on me, when I have a lot of pressure already, is something that he knows I would give extra scrutiny when I'm town. I think he'd absolutely want to make every effort he could to get me to not scum read him, and not do anything that would even run the risk of me launching a push on him.

Of course, now that I say this, if I'm right about it, he'd have to fuck with it in a later game for shits and giggles. But I think at this point in time, it's valid.

And I strongly disagree that ffery/Nacho hydraing would make them more likely to want to mislynch me. If anything, I think it makes it less likely. I approached Nacho in that game via a "town Nacho would never do xxx" angle, as in, the arguments Nacho was pushing made no sense from town ergo he was scum. If ffery is partnered with him, she has to condone whatever kind of push he makes. And I think I would be able to call this way more easily on ffery than I would Nacho, given she's generally easier to read.

If I squint, I could maybe see Nacho thinking there's a lot of unlynchable people in this game, and thus thinking I'm one of the only possible mislynches and that he'd have to lynch me at some point or another. But that's it. I'm have trouble making sense of it coming from sangres as scum otherwise.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask. I'm not going to get caught up in what happened in Capcom or anything (and am trying to be a lot less aggressive in general). And I haven't forgot about your other questions or anything like that, there's just a lot of stuff to respond to and I wanted to get this out first so bear with me.

@Regfan:

I see your latest post and I'll look at it when I get the chance. I'd like an explanation for the point I brought up above (feel free to ask for clarification if it's not clear what I meant).

[pieguyn]

Hey, pieguyn, whenever you come back into this game and feel more cooled down here's one for you: do you feel like your accuracy at reading Muffin has improved a lot over the past year or so? In other words, do you feel paranoid of him in games now like you did before (see: my Large Normal) or no?

(I don't know if I'm phrasing these in a way that makes sense.)

yeah, I think it has. I don't have much of a tendency to get paranoid of him; there was a recent game (TH upick 3) where I town read him within the first 5 pages and didn't really question it at all throughout the game.

Regfan's left me some reads on skype while I was asleep and, while the strength of some reads have changed, he's largely dealing with the same PoE pool as earlier {pieguyn, BBmolla, Soft-spoken, and Yuriko}

this is part of why I'm skeptical of the way you're viewing the game here.

barring myself, you're essentially left with Yuriko - arguably the lowest hanging fruit in the game - and 2 people who both, up to now at least, have been giant lurkfucks. while I suppose logically there shouldn't be an issue with it, it feels extremely naive. do you really not have any second thoughts about everyone within the "meta-circle" being town? it looks more like you're doing this to attempt to gain cred with everyone, which while I suppose is the most obvious strategy is an approach I think would be more typical of scum here (call everyone town and act like people outside the "circle" are just scum).

I'm aware this is likely biased bc you are scum reading me, but throw that out for a second. *if* you suppose I'm town for argument's sake, I think you should see what I'm getting at here.

[pieguyn]

If her threshold of townreading me is higher than it is for her reading other people, as she seems to imply in 168 and that's why I'm null and not town, it's silly for her to apply that rubric to anyone else's read on me, which feeds back to the complaint about GB townreading me being disingenuous.

me asking ffery why she was town reading you wasn't intended to be a complaint or anything. I'm aware she has more experience with you than I do and I was hoping she'd tell me what I'm supposedly missing here.

Yuriko is a total gut judgment call (I've not really changed my mind on my position on her as of now) with Pie saying that GB's stance isn't believable (despite RBD agreeing)

the problem I had with this wasn't just their position; it was their reasoning behind it.

namely, them calling her scum for faking confusion over the setup. I think all of her setup "confusion" can be as easily explained just bc the setup at first appears to be fundamentally different from a normal setup. I can easily enough see someone not knowing how that would impact the game, without realizing it's essentially the same as any other setup - and he had outright pointed out at one point that not all of Yuriko's confusion was setup related. at least some of it was typical "all these people played with each other and IDK how to sort it all"; yet he doesn't factor this into account in how difficult it'd be for someone to get reads here.

I can potentially see scum reads on her for not scum hunting. that's fine. but what he did there felt more like scum latching onto an innocuous error to paint an easy target as scummy.

it doesn't really matter to me whether someone else agrees with a position or not. what matters is the reasoning behind it - compare to RBD, who I don't think has specifically laid out any reason behind it yet (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't remember seeing anything outside the "not scum hunting").

p-edit:

Pie is this argument about what Nacho and I would do purely hypothetical?

Nacho, as far as I know, hasn't read anything in this game since his post on page 1.

The argument between you and GB has reminded me somewhat of your reaction to zmuffin in the Xenosaga game. I didn't scumread you entirely because of your interactions with zmuffin, but it was a factor. This feels similar to me because i feel like you're overreacting to them and that's become a reinforcing spiral of action/reaction.

it is, but as evidenced by how you all approached 13p Normal, I figure you/Nacho would have discussed pregame how you would play in response to certain players. I think, at the very least, Nacho would have talked about certain ways to manipulate/avoid certain players in a similar way to what he did at the onset of that game. and even if he didn't, you would still be aware that I tend to be highly critical of people who suspect/push me, since he had already said as much.

and yeah, I would say that's basically what happened. I'm trying to go about this in a less aggressive way from here on, though.

[pieguyn]

other questions OTOH:

someone asked me if I've ever caught ffery as scum. there was a mini normal a long time ago where I correctly scum read her-scum, as well as a cult game where I figured out there was something off with her after she got recruited after town reading her D1. admittedly both of these are poor examples, but I haven't played with her-scum outside of that.

I've never joked about being scum in a game before.

Quil is probably town and I'm coming around to GS-town as well.

[pieguyn]

ffery, what do you make of my thoughts in the second paragraph of 230?

[pieguyn]

I think your 2nd paragraph of #230 basically applies to all the players you're calling a meta-circle, if any of them are scum. I think that's part of the reason why it feels dicey just accepting the townreads are all correct.

as in, most would be excited if they thought they had spotted the other as scum?

I don't think I'm getting your point here.

also, imo you're also in the meta circle. If you're town, once you and GB sort each other out, where would you look next?

I'd be more inclined to think Yuriko is scum along with one of {BBM, S-S} via POE. I'd also want to really nail down my reads on GS and RBD, since I mostly just have vague town vibes there without as much concrete basis for it.

while admittedly what you said screws up my reasoning for town reading you to some extent, I think I like the way you're helping me work it out; I would also want to wait for Nacho to actually start doing stuff before launching a push on you since I'm fairly sure I'd be able to form a preliminary read there quickly.

p-edit: reading.

[pieguyn]

yeah, I'm fine with that.

[pieguyn]

I swear to fuck Nacho, if you're buddying me right now I'm personally driving all the way to Chicago and punching you in the face. fortunately, I think you're just town.

I almost wish I was scum right now just so I could thoroughly enjoy watching as Regfan expends all his effort trying to lynch me and fails. ~

[pieguyn]

looking at 230, I'm kinda meh about your argument. Regfan is an excellent player but I feel like he has some blind spots. Everybody does. The last game he and I played (of about 3 games total iirc) he misread town-me and scum-nacho. I was having an absolutely terrible game, and I don't hold it against him, but his basic rules of thumb don't work on some players, and some aspects of my town play that are blindingly town to some people (Empire, for instance) aren't obvious town to him.

yeah, but seriously

lying about what a push is?

lying about what a push is?!?!?!

I'd be more inclined to think Yuriko is scum along with one of {BBM, S-S} via POE. I'd also want to really nail down my reads on GS and RBD, since I mostly just have vague town vibes there without as much concrete basis for it.

cool

so vote yuriko

correction, I think Yuriko would be about as likely as you or S-S (definitely not more likely). RBD and (updated) Quil are also contenders; in general, I feel very uncomfortable just writing everyone in the meta circle off as town.

p-edit:

What do you think of my thoughts on RBD/why I think he reacted to you the way he did?

I need to go back and reread it first; I had the order messed up in my head. RBD reacting in that way would make sense as scum, but I know zmuffin usually has trouble reading my town posts as forced, so part of me wants to give them the benefit of the doubt for the time being.

[pieguyn]

If you're going to continue with your "I don't believe he'd use bad reasoning like people being online but not posting" then you should read through two recent examples of me bringing up being active elsewhere on the site as a scum-tell. #1 Micro 373 where I pointed Aegor out being active elsewhere but dodging this game (He was scum). #2 Open 567 where I pointed out ZZZX being active elsewhere (He was town). I've played enough games to notice that scum generally do avoid the thread, pop online, read it and not post more than town do (It's entirely possible for town to do it but it does make someone more than randomly likely to be scum), yours was weakened by the fact that you hadn't posted (a lot) elsewhere on the site and it was early game but the fact that we saw you online three separate times when we were was what made it worth mentioning and at a stage where I didn't have any strong scum reads at all did make me feel slightly better about my vote on you. This isn't a very hard thing to understand?

yeah, uh, here's the thing

I went back and checked. Aegor was actually there and posting _in other games_. same thing with ZZZX. I'm pretty sure (as in 100%) I wasn't, and if it was it was very sporadic.

what you're saying here ignores the entire point of my argument. there's a significant difference from actually reading/analyzing mafia posts, and just periodically browsing the site. this is why I thought your angle on me was bullshit - you weren't considering the context

I don't really have any intention of pushing this angle any further since I get expecting me to at least pop in with an "I'm here" post or whatever. however, if you can link me any instances where you called this on someone when they were online elsewhere even though they weren't posting, I'd feel a lot better about it.

1) RE Post 230 I've explained what about your push I find incredibly scummy and that's how over-blown it is and how the reasoning doesn't add up with what's happened in the thread

Waiting for conversations to play out naturally in the manner Bork was to get reads makes sense as town (It's what I was doing at the time), you're able to see how peoples conversations play out and then assess their motivations afterwards whereas scum are more incentive into pushing themselves into a conversation to a) Seem contributive while really not doing much or b) Manipulate the conversation. I liked his line of questioning towards Quilford - the questions had a legitimate thought process and reason behind it, I've since really liked the way he has interacted both with Ffyer and ourselves and while I strongly disagree with his Yuriko town reasoning I think him pushing people to comment on it reads town. And not to mention I DO have Sangres as town, I just didn't at THAT point. Also Empire says your town reasoning on Sangres is ridiculously superficial (The fact that your 'strong' town read is based on page 1 rather than latter pages is proof of that) + they weren't "pushing" us, merely asking a question

(This is you changing the definition of pushing again).

you literally said this. you actually thought I was scum who felt the need to lie about what the definition of a "push" is, for ... no reason.

like, suppose for argument's sake I was scum here. what exactly was I attempting to accomplish by doing that? what in god's green earth do I gain by lying about something that's 1. easily fact checkable, 2. such a major point it's pointless to lie about?

even *if* I was scum here, the obvious conclusion is still that this is just a huge misunderstanding. and writing it off bc "scum lie/misrep" is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. it's not about lying/misrep'ing, it's common sense.

I feel I've made it pretty clear that anything resembling poking at someone, asking them questions, putting pressure on them, etc. counts as a "push" in my opinion. I've said this, Quil at the very least pointed it out, but you're ignoring it. this is part of why I really don't see a town approach in how you're pushing this - you keep bringing it up bc you want to look like you have a major point here (that I'm "lying" and thus OMG have to be scum) while hoping no one realizes it doesn't actually make any sense

the fact that your town-read explanation on Ffyer similarly ignores what happened in the thread points towards scum fabricating reads

you didn't fully read 230 (which explains why, despite ffery's initial read on me potentially having scum motivation coming from a general player, it isn't what I would expect specifically coming from her as scum) - reread

Nacho is correct that the entire read is based on her confidence. the initial questioning of Empire was obviously a weak tell, hence why I only had a weak town read on her at that point. after I saw another town tell, I was able to solidify the read.

???

2) You claiming to be "Skeptical" of the way we're viewing the game in Post 231 is massively hypocritical given that you yourself are claiming that you're leaning town on the same four players we are (Even if some of these reads are weak for you which guess what some of them are for us too) leaving you with a similar PoE type pool as of now with the one real change being replacing yourself with us so you finding that a scum-tell makes no sense here.

it's fairly obvious that I'm not strictly reading everyone outside of {Yuriko, BBM, S-S} as town. I pretty clearly said in the game thread that I would make it a point to nail down the town reads in the meta circle that I feel less strongly about, since I don't feel comfortable with all of them (I literally said I don't have anything outside of vague town feelings for some of them).

you, on the other hand, seem content with it - this is where my issue lies

3) In Post 233 you're massively changing what our (Or my) Yuriko scum-read is based around not to mention ignoring that Yurikos Post 55 states that her "confusion" with how this should be played has nothing to do with people knowing each other or peoples play but solely the setup. My issue is that I'm not able to follow her thought process behind her posts (Her post claiming that this is 'scum sided' while bringing up two huge things that point it towards being town sided is an example of this) and I find that she's purposely avoiding scumhunting talk - both of these I read as scum-tells (And again not rock-solid scum-tells but I do want to see more from her and her to explain her thought process in more depth since I'm willing to admit some if it may be based on her being ESL).

55 doesn't remotely say that, though. there's nothing there that's indicative of her having trouble reading the player base. to the contrary, 46 and 102 seem to indicate exactly that - that she's having trouble forming reads for play-related reasons.

the point I'm making here, though, is that when someone is confused over the setup, that takes a priority over forming reads. and you pushing her over it, again, ignores the obvious explanation - that she just doesn't understand how the setup works. and if someone doesn't get the roles in the setup, it would affect their play in various ways (hence her not realizing that this is essentially a normal setup, except with a different killing mechanism).

but it didn't feel like you were really stopping to consider possibilities here. it looks like you thought, "oh, look at this newb who keeps flip flopping and contradicting herself; it looks like I'd be able to push this really easily", and so there it was.

this is why I find your push on her scummy

[pieguyn]

The advantage of scum-Regfan doing this is...?

the advantage of that is he wants to look like he has a point here and hope people accept it as truth without actually thinking critically/checking what actually happened. "lying" is a very strong word. people have a tendency to see "lying", and think someone is automatically scum. so he pushes that I'm "lying" about something that in reality ridiculous for anyone to lie about, alignment regardless, and hope no one figures it out.

same question. the advantage of scum-me calling something a "push" without actually thinking it was is ... ?

[pieguyn]

:/

GB maybe town.

[pieguyn]

Spoiler: @REGFAN

The exact issue I have is with your reasoning behind the ffyer town read and your scum read on us (and call of our pushing being awful), ignore the 'definition' of push for a second I have trouble you seeing Ffyers question directed to Empire a town-tell of any sort and similarly have trouble believing the two posts that we made would lead Town!You to "awful/scum", this continues to be a p large concern I have with you.

usually I find ignoring context to be a massive scum tell. it is usually relatively easy for scum to BS reasoning that ignores context because it looks good and is generally correct logically; in other words, very hard to argue against/attack. town, on the other hand, usually factor everything into account when forming reads - they don't push things when the surrounding evidence indicates otherwise. ergo, when someone pushes something and the context very clearly says otherwise, it is likely it is just bc they don't give a shit about context and are pushing it anyway, ergo, scum.

this is where my issue with your initial posting lies. as far as I could tell, you were just BS'ing there. that's why I pushed it strongly - I thought it made flat-out no sense for a town player to think, and thus was a strong scum tell. it didn't matter if it was just a weak read. if I see someone pushing a read that looks like BS, I'm going to point it out, regardless of strength.

I really don't see how this isn't obvious by now.

I did fully read #230 and I don't think it's relevant I've commented on this already, a) Nacho hadn't posted at that point and has been very obviously busy site-wide so claiming that your town read stems from something that involves him doesn't add up and if it revolves around pre-game discussion between the two of them it wouldn't rule her out making a throwaway minor comment stating that she can see your posts being awkward too (It's not a stance she'd be scared to state as scum) and I disagree massively re; you claiming that her being confident is the basis for your town read since it's the opposite that I'm reading town from her. I'm finding the reluctance to make a 100% call on our alignment and her explanation for it genuine.

so you think ffery sees Nacho say this:

Pieguy is the biggest threat on that list by far: she's thorough as hell when she gets reasonably sure on a scum read, and she's ridiculously transparent and passionate but doesn't fall into bad arguments when emotional like many people do. She does think that her scum and town game are horribly obvious and as such has a tendency to push back pretty hard on scumreads on her (this has a tendency to stick on experienced players more than inexperienced ones). Her weakness lies in that she can doubt herself sometimes, so as long as you don't suspect her for dumb reasons, you don't make too many obvious mistakes, and you give her reasons to want to read you as town, you can put her off a couple of days even if she has a scum read on you. She would be my top choice of a nightkill by far in this playerlist.

then entirely decides not to give a shit and scum read me anyway? in a game where she's outright hydra-ing with him where he would, almost certainly, not support that kind of play coming from her?

your logic here is completely oversimplified. people playing in a hydra aren't going to just do whatever they want without regard for how their partner would approach a game.

I also disagree with the idea that 93 would have been a "throwaway comment" as scum. the obvious conclusion there is that she either was agreeing with the scum reads on me as town, or was pretending to as scum. the fact that it was only one post does not change this: it's still a player agreeing with a potential scum read. if ffery and I hadn't had that interaction after I first started pushing you, do you think she would have just entirely forgot about it and started town or nullreading me later? I don't think so; if she's scum, she thought it bc she thought she genuinely would as town. (the way you write it off as a throwaway comment, btw, again ignores the context and I'm starting to get the feeling this is more a result of difference between our playstyles as opposed to anything.)

and I really don't give a shit if you're reading her based around the "opposite" of her being confidence. I saw her town confidence in her opening posts and town read her for it. you approaching the read differently from me doesn't indicate that either of us is wrong and/or scum for pushing it; it indicates we're approaching the read differently.

that you cannot see this is, put bluntly, really awful and part of why I thought you were just arguing semantics here.

Except that #55 does state that her difficulty here is with the setup and not the play? Bork effectively asked her how this game differs from other games and she stated that it was based on the setup, her popping in on #102 going "yeah its about play too" makes plenty of sense for scum to add - gives them another excuse to hide behin. And fucking again, my scum read on her is a weak scum read, I'm waiting for her to actually respond to my questions to her (Especially since I'm willingly admitted that I might just be having difficulty following her thought process via her location) and actually give reads and content (Empires waiting for specific things from her too) so you constantly stating "you pushing her looks scummy" is another massively-untrue statement.

I strongly disagree with this line of thinking. her adding that postmortem doesn't indicate that she's scum making up setup confusion and then proceeding to lie about what said confusion is about. the obvious explanation here is that it's about both, and she just didn't mention it the first time.

and again, I didn't really care whether it's a strong read or not. I care about the *reasoning*. behind it. it's the same thing as the point about me active lurking. if it makes no sense for a town player to think, it's likely to come from scum, even if they supposedly don't feel strongly about it.

[pieguyn]

:/

GB maybe town.

Why?

a few reasons. I'm pretty sure a lot of the reasons I had for pushing them could as easily be attributed to fundamental differences in the way we've approached this game. from my interactions with him, it feels like he focuses very specifically on individual posts and what people are saying, whereas I tend to focus more on determining the context/motivation first and reading the posts with it in mind. the Yuriko read is an example of this - he's getting caught up in what she's saying, pointing out inconsistencies etc. whereas I don't give a shit bc I think it's obviously just as a result of her being confused - and I wound up thinking he was scum for it. same with this whole "push" bullshit bc he had made it a point to say it wasn't a strong read, but I don't care; his motivation was clearly to pressure me.

him saying "I only said that once and I felt very very very strongly you were scum" I think is a town tell. that's essentially what I always wind up doing as town and I figured he might have been doing the same thing here; this falls in line with that (he only came up with that bc he was sure I was scum and then dropped it).

I also think I misinterpreted the strength of his reads (and I'd like to apologize if you took offense to it

@GB

) - I first thought it didn't look like he was doing anything to reconsider them, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for the time being.

[pieguyn]

also,

@Regfan:

, I'd really like if you could consider my above post for a moment bc I'm pretty fucking sure most of our reasons for scum reading each other can be attributed to this - and I think this is obvious if you read my latest wall with that in mind. it happens that in this case that I'm pretty sure this would also be obvious if you check some of my recent town games, since I think it's a pretty big part of how I have above-average town reads and I'm actually pretty proud of it (Newbie 1570 comes to mind).

[pieguyn]

These kinds of odd conclusions that presume the other players in the game are mindless idiots (including the one I pointed out in #133) are really stopping me from being able to put pieguyn in the townpile which I kind of have been wanting to do based on her emotions when reacting to GB

also, this is actually exactly how I caught Mala in that TM game.

she was blatantly pushing shit that was objectively false for pretty much the entirety of D2. and she almost got away with it. the only reason she didn't was because I pushed her really really hard over it - and even then a lot of the ppl who were actually on the wagon were ambivalent over it until she scum slipped at the end.

it's also the majority of what ppl like Nacho do as scum. it's a really really common scum tactic to just make up stuff and hope people don't realize that's what you're doing. I'm not sure why you disagree.

p-edit:

Do I think you "lying about the definition" is a strong point, no? It's not really what I was trying to say either and it's not a phrase I've used since then

(Which was a post I made when I was very very very confident you were scum, something I'm not amymore)

, I've tried to explain this several times since.

^this, namely the bolded, which was in reference to 121.

at first I thought he was just BS'ing there. after seeing this, I think it was town motivated in that it only happened bc he felt really really stongly about me being scum. when I'm town, and feel strongly about a scum read, I usually have very strong urges to deconstruct every single thing they post and explain why it's coming from scum. so it often winds up happening that some specific things I point out are overly nitpicky and I point it out anyway. I think it was coming from that kind of mindset. the fact that he dropped it later reinforces it - he pointed it out bc he thought he was onto something, then dropped it when he stopped thinking it made sense. plus, in general, it fits with his conviction re: the push on me.

sorry in advance if this isn't clear, I don't really know how to explain it.

[pieguyn]

I have thoughts on #132 but first I want to know whether the fact it was almost a direct copy of this was intentional or not.

it was

:>

if you've seen my other recent games, you'd notice that's not the first time I've stolen your phrases, either!

#168 is the first post by pieguy that I actually thought looked town and is one of the main reasons I'm currently thinking he might be town. Similarly, I am not sure he's capable of writing #230 as scum.

I actually have an issue with this. how are you not seeing similarities between those posts and what I did in S&S?

[pieguyn]

I don't remember you ever doing anything like that in Serum&Steel

eh, fair enough. FTR, I was referring to this (directed towards the same person, even!).

[pieguyn]

hmmm

@ffery:

would you say that my original angle that Regfan was saying I was scum "lying about what a push is" was reasonable? aka, if you agreed that was what he was doing would he be scum for it?

I don't have any intention to push it further; I'm asking for an entirely unrelated reason.

[pieguyn]

When I expressed a scum read on pieguy in touhou upick 3, for example, the reaction was basically "I acknowledge your reasoning and you're right but..." - which is the sort of thing I would have expected from pieguy-town here.

except in that game, your reasoning for scum reading me *was* correct. your reasoning was that I wasn't scum hunting, and it was right - I had not pushed anyone at that point in the game.

in this game, GB was pushing me for strategically lurking. which is incorrect - I wasn't posting bc I was busy.

you're saying you'd expect me to react the same way as TH 3. so why would you expect me to acknowledge I was doing something that I wasn't doing?

Also YOU know exactly why I think pieguy's response to the "posting elsewhere" thing made no sense; pieguy KNOWS that sort of thing doesn't necessarily come from scum, regardless of "context" (which gentlemen couldn't have had any idea about unless they're psychic and I do not believe Regfan is a psychic...

the context in this case was literally "she hasn't been posting in any other games". he would have known this as soon as he looked up my posts.

so why do you think he wouldn't have had any idea about it?

[pieguyn]

do you think that a potential Regfan-scum would have legitimate reason (for example, the one I pointed out in 276 - there might be another potential reason) to lie about my play?

I'm asking bc I actually think I'm seeing some parallels in what zmuffin did here to what he did in Varsoon in Touhou IN. having an objective view on whether what I was saying was understandable from an outside POV would help me think through it.

p-edit: @ffery

[pieguyn]

The "context" isn't as important as you're making it out to be. This is ignoring the fact that there's a difference between not posting in other games (which may have lots and lots of pages) and not posting in a game that was fresh out of confirmation stage

...... except it is?

I know for a fact that, on several occasions, I've been in a game with someone who hadn't posted for a while. then I see them browsing the site and check their post history.

I never push them over it if I find that they haven't made any posts in the time since their last post in the game, excluding posts outside games. since I'm well aware that being online/posting outside mafia games takes nowhere as much time/effort as making game-related posts.

I mean, it's fairly obvious to me. legit don't know why you disagree.

I also disagree it takes less effort to post in a game in its early stages. to the contrary, I think the early stages of the game are where it takes the most time to develop reads and form opinions based on new posts. it's fairly easy to post in a game where you have fully formed reads on everyone already.

forgot to paste the gamelink into that post: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=59772

got it. should be able to look at it sometime later today/tomorrow.

[pieguyn]

No, it's really not. Maybe for some people, but even then, prodding someone about it is still better than not doing that and the fact that you automatically thought someone pointing out you'd posted elsewhere was scummy is what I have a hard time believing.

I hardly think pulling it up, when his vote was on me at that point, and saying it made them feel more comfortable with their vote has the same effect as "xxx hasn't posted yet; want to hear from them". do you disagree?

[pieguyn]

coming back to this, I am still confused. You're asking me about regfan, but you're talking about parallels in muffin's play here to Touhou IN. Also, refresh my memory about zmuffin and Varsoon?

oh, I'm not talking about what Regfan did in this game. I'm talking about zmuffin's play.

in Touhou IN, there was Varsoon vs. me right at the start. now, obviously I was wrong, but zmuffin essentially picked a side (Varsoon over me) and defended it. the effect of this (you could argue this was unintentional, but I'm pretty sure it was significant enough to be noticeable) was that it made Varsoon feel validated re: what he thought he was seeing on me.

now, at the end of all of this, my scum read on GB essentially came down to

- their push on Yuriko looking like scum attacking low-hanging fruit
- them claiming I lied about what a "push" is- which looked like they were just coming up with bullshit and hoping people accepted it as truth without realizing it made no sense
- the initial point about me "active lurking".

I don't think GB is scum anymore. but I don't think any of these points were "nonsensical", and it sure as hell wasn't as nonsensical as that lolpush from S&S. pushing on a newb over logical inconsistencies is a fairly common scum play, and I think it's one that would be more necessary than usual in a playerlist like this (where I would estimate at most one person from the "meta-circle", if town, would be lynchable); and I think the second point is reasonable as well. I literally saw Mala pull the exact same thing the last game I played: she lied about what my scum read on her was in order to make it look like I had less on her than I really did. Nacho also did the same thing to me in the newbie game I've been alluding to earlier where he lynched me (and I'm pretty fucking sure zmuffin has direct experience with this as a scum tactic, since iirc it played a large part in his xenosaga mollie read).

writing it off as "nonsensical" feels more like an attempt at getting on GB's good side than actually believing what he's saying. which, surprise, is the same thing he did there.

there's a few things I'm trying to figure out here (maybe it was too difficult to follow what I was thinking, and he thought I thought GB was scum for points I had given up already). I still think the first point is fair, and while the third point makes a lot of sense in my head, everyone else seemed to think it made no sense, so, meh. I'm not sure if people would think my second point is actually understandable or not. if it's likely someone wouldn't, that would make me feel a lot less strongly about this.

[pieguyn]

@MOD: permanent LA.

I should still post, but it will likely be more sporadic than usual.

[pieguyn]

Okay.

VOTE: Soft-spoken

what was the reasoning behind this?

[pieguyn]

Ok this makes a hell of a lot more sense to me. With a memory jog, I remember the stuff between zmuffin and you, too.

I pointed out earlier in reply to bork that the thing I saw as different between his reaction to the you/GB 1v1 and zmuffin's reaction was that bork was questioning both of you.

so essentially we agree on it, just for different reasons.

I had a very quick look at the Joss Whedon game btw and I feel pretty comfortable saying that Reg's initial reasons for pushing me weren't atypical of him. in fact, I noticed a few posts that contained practically the exact same type of argument (the one where he pushed you for being "online and responding to posts immediately" - which btw is something I likely would have hard attacked if I had seen it). I haven't read all of his ISO yet nor looked through your ISO, but regardless.

have you made anything of Nati's posts so far?

Spoiler: @REGFAN

1) I want links to games where you've complained about people using the word forced and genuine to explain reads as town (This should be an easy one for you to find given that you're claiming it's a major gripe you have about how people explain reads and make you think they're scum bullshiting).

Newbie 1570 - Nacho (scum) pushed Kitty (town) the entire game for horribad reasons which included forced posts 864 as one example that lays it out pretty clearly. I shut that down immediately bc it was really obviously bullshit.
Signs and Void - I absolutely hated Empire's reads list when he first entered the game. the reads I took the most issue with were the DV read for being "genuine", Marquis bc he was doing stuff that was "sincere" that in actuality didn't have any town motivation (my early reads were 4/4 that game <_>) and your scum reads (2 of which were based around "forced"/"not genuine").
13p Normal - jason (town) got a lot of shit early game bc ppl thought his opening was forced. I took issue with this, although I scum read his opening for other reasons - after he did that I correctly identified all the reasons ppl had for reading him as scum as playstyle (and hilariously called out the entire scum team for being on the wagon).
Open 593 - pisskop (town) had a replace out which he promptly retracted that came off forced to some of the players. I didn't push anyone over it, but I argued against it being forced.
Xenosaga - I got a lot of shit this game for "forced" posts, primarily from zmuffin (town) and mastin (town). other games where I got shit for forced posts OTOH: Pokemon Generation II UPick (town), TH Makai Mix (town, no one explicitly used the word "forced" but there were similarly bullshit reasons such as "she's not playing like she did as town" with no further elaboration which is essentially the same thing), Touhou UPick (scum)

2) I want links to games where you've attacked someone for mentioning the phrase active-lurking or have brought up someone being online but dodging the thread as town (Know this one may be harder to find, happy to wait for a few days if it takes you that long for a particular game to come to mind).

never happened. in my memory, this is the first game I've been in where someone pushed someone for "avoiding the thread" when they weren't actually doing so.

3) Links to any games that you were voted or "pushed" in the early game phase and by early game I mean first 5-10 pages of the game, as both alignments.

Xenosaga (town)
AA:MFA (town)
Pick & Ban (town)
Touhou IN (town)
Touhou UPick (scum)

these are all pretty old. it's actually been a long time since I got pushed hard early game.

4) I want a much more deeper explanation behind how you thought we were "content" with our reads (Even if you've changed it since then) as it would mean ignoring a

lot

of our posts. I can understand this partially being caused by tunnel-vision or confirmation-bias but I want your thought process at the time of making that accusation to then proceed to state the same reads we essentially have. Essentially you said you were "skeptical" of us having our main suspect pool the lesser posters while then taking the same stance yourself - it's a sequence that I'm still having difficulty buying.

Was waiting for more content to occur to get reads before posting but this games extremely slow and I'm impatient at the moment. This is just a normal scumhunting setup, there are some other mechanics at play (Tree stump, the manner scum have their night kill ect.) but none of that changes how this early game plays out, time for more people to pop in here and state some reads and thoughts.

I didn't like Quilfords early few posts (Was the one to bring it up to Empire initially), they felt very awkward but I don't agree with Empire at all about Quilfords Post 51 where he considers us being scum, I'm reading that as more of a town-tell than a scum-tell here.Also not seeing Empires town read on Yuriko

at all

so he'll have to explain that one to me when he's awake and sober. Similarly not seeing his Sangres town read, hoping it's based on more than just him liking the manner she brought up meta-checks earlier because that read as extremely weak and something easily fakeable to me.

Sangres other than wanting to speak with Empire was there a particular reason you wanted to know who made Post 4 of ours?

About the only town read I'm semi-confident in at this point is Bork, like his "There's a few things I'm monitoring but don't want to butt in on" in Post 38 mirrors what I was doing at the time, also like his recent questioning with Quilford, comes across as him genuinely attempt to get a read there.

Unvote, Vote: Pie

Quilford vote still isn't bad but I'm liking this slightly more at the moment, Pies reaction towards Muffin in Post 13 / Post 17 felt over-the-top forced.

first post where you give reads. this is my baseline, going forward: starting from here you had one town read you felt semi-confident in and it was bork-town.

I'm now very much seeing the Sangres town read of Empires, Ffyers Post 75, Post 86 and especially Post 93 all read very town and I liked the explanation behind the "Who posted that" question in Post 82, can follow the reasoning behind it. Would like to see some Nacho analysis in this thread soon though. Our town read on Bork has gotten stronger too and I'm leaning town on Rancid (I think Empire agrees with this too?) albeit that's a fairly weak read at this point.

Also I forgot to mention it before but neither of us liked Mollas Post 41 nor the fact that he's active elsewhere but here. Similarly Pie has been online a lot since our vote on him and the lack of in-thread reaction is making me feel more comfortable with our vote.

@Quilford -

You would have known I'd be online via seeing my post (which you responded to) in the Melbourne thread. Anyway while I agree with your reads in Post 96 I find it alone p underwhelming, would like to see more from you; what's your read on Yuriko/Pie/Molla so far?

@Muffin -

I like that your reads are mirroring mine so far (Pie/Yuriko scum, Bork town) would like to know what specifically of Yuriko that

you

are/were reading as scum at the time of your post though, also would love your read on Quilford with reasoning attached please.

@Yuriko -

I'm mostly interested in your reads on players (So far everyone single one of your posts has been about the setup/game and not about a read on a player, that needs to change); Who do you think is mafia, who do you think is town and why? With all that said I do want you to explain the disconnect in your most recent post; if you accept the fact that lynched town players continue to have a voice and that there will be less nightkills (Both really good things for town) why do you think it's biased towards the mafia? Not following that conclusion at all.

+sangres town, +weak town read on RBD. continues to push people outside THE META CIRCLE of players.

Hey everyone, I just woke up much later than I had wanted to (I spent way too much of the night talking about this game with Regfan) and I'm now fully caught up. I see Regfan's done a really comprehensive job in responding to pieguyn's posts and I don't really want to become another Thor and add on to the wars when it's unnecessary, but if anyone has any questions they want to ask me about our read on pieguyn, let me know.

Regfan's left me some reads on skype while I was asleep and, while the strength of some reads have changed, he's largely dealing with the same PoE pool as earlier {pieguyn, BBmolla, Soft-spoken, and Yuriko} We both really want to see more from Molla and soft-spoken (especially Molla, who should be really easy for us to read) and more reads-type content from Yuriko, personally I feel like the game's stalling in my mind until they go ahead and do so.

In the meantime, I think it's worth me checking into Yuriko's meta since I found the scum game Regfan linked really disconcerting when he showed it to me on skype a while back.

same POE pool as before. sangres, GS, RBD, Quil all town.

Tammys Post 196 strengthens my town read on the Bork slot; I really like the way she's handling Pie/Us and her reach out attempts to understand Pie better reads really genuine particularly in Post 184. Also don't mind Borks Post 175. Like that Ffyers Post 198 mentioned a lot of things that I'd also thought when reading the earlier pages and matches with how she questioned and interacted with people at the time matched the issues she had, I'm less impressed with Nachos recent posts but I don't think they're scummy moreso just frustrating to read. Would be p shocked if either of these two slots were scum at this point and on the off chance that I'm wrong about either I think it'll be p apparent as the day plays out and last I heard from Empire he was p rock-solid on these two being town as well which helps.

Molla, you're going to have to explain the town read on Pie in Post 205 in more detail because the "She used AtE" in Post 207 isn't going to cut it especially when you saw that was what ETL used in TM to get town read so AtE alone isn't something you'd be considering a strong town-tell here at all. Also want you to explain your "everyone here is difficult to read" stance in Post 202 because we're of the opposite stance on that, we think most people are going to be fairly transparent and easy to read as the day plays out. What's your read on Quilford, what's your read on Ffyerhydra, give us some of your thoughts please.

Town read on Quilford is still largely based on tone, would really like him to actually do more scumhunting and actually explain his "I think this is TvT" stance in more detail because he's really only just touched on it - the only thing isn't based on a difference in the word 'push', there's a lot more to this than that.

Not seeing Nachos scum read on RCB either, I'm not confident they're town by any means but I've liked most of there posts and feel like for the most part there thoughts and reads have matched mine, do need to see more from them (particularly Muffin) to have a strong read there.

Still waiting for literally anything from Soft_Spoken and want Yuriko to answer Post 103 when she gets in here.

still reading sangres/GB as town, still reading Quil as town, not getting scum read on RBD. mildly questions sangres.

@Pie

- I want responses to both Post 228 and Post 254, preferably before I head to bed if possible.

Eh okay other than the Pie and RBD reads most of Nachos other ones match mine in Post 265.

Empires catching up now.

drops it and decides sangres is town anyway.

nothing here indicated you were reconsidering your TOWN BLOCK. you accumulated town reads over the course of the game, and stuck with them. when it *did* look like you were evaluating reads, or someone posted a case for someone in the TOWN BLOCK, you usually immediately gave up on it/disagreed with it and continued thinking they were town anyway.

so, where in here were you reconsidering your town reads? I suppose you can say that you were still questioning them and all, but it was very disconcerting that every time you did it never led anywhere. I don't think you're scum for it anymore, but either way, I hope this better explains where I was coming from re: that.

[pieguyn]

He's

NATIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

</3

[pieguyn]

Pie is, like, idk, the silly little Serum & Steel exchange made me chuckle and was so clearly a townpie thing to do('Remember this weird one-off where I did something that's totally different from now? YEAH I GOTCHA YOU SCUM'), you and nacho are you and nacho and nacho is more or less easily readable in lylo while you're being yourself and I'm feeling the casualness and not the slight awkwardness.

I actually have a lot of trouble believing that of all of my posts, *that's* the one you think I can't fake as scum. I actually think that if I was scum here, that kind of question would be something I'd hone in on quickly (due to how easy to ask it is - plus, asking about town reads on yourself is a relatively easy way to look town in some ppl's eyes). what about it made you think it was a "townpie" thing to do?

while Yuriko is only really there for newbtell stuff.

elaborate?

I'm inclined to agree with the town reads on S-S. I actually really don't like Quil's posting on the last few pages. I feel like he saw S-S acting lynchable with only a few lynchable players left and came out full force pushing him as a result, then backtracked on it when he saw positive sentiment towards him in order to avoid looking too conspicuous about it. I need to reread his posts in-depth and see if his arguments for it made sense.

Nati's tone feels different than what I remember, but as I haven't played with her in forever I'm not putting any stock in it.

[pieguyn]

the entire point was that it didn't look like you were _actually_ factoring any of it in, and your reads reflected that: at the end of the day you still had them all as town for the duration of the game.

in that context, it looked more like you were just pretending to be "skeptical" of your town reads there with no intention of actually moving any of them out of THE TOWN BLOCK, even if you claimed the strength of the reads were different.

p-edit: @Regfan

[pieguyn]

@pie, re: Quilford. I have had Quilford town due to the manner in which he reacted to GB vs Pie (129 was more than just calling TvT, I felt that he was actively trying to either diffuse it or cut through miscommunication).

agree with this to some extent (this is part of why I first said he was likely town a while back). I think it's relatively easier to fake than most of the other stuff that's been going on in this game, though.

298 struck me as town when it was made because I was in a 'push Sangres' mode (which I'm not entirely sure I'm out of yet) and I thought he was seeing similar things to what I was seeing.

These were both times where Quilford's made a post and I've been immediately on the horn to Tammy about Quilford being town.

-b

I'm not so sure. most people wouldn't know this, but Nacho and I have had a recent tendency to read each other correctly, almost 100% of the time, often based on a small number of posts (although it occasionally takes me a bit longer to form a correct read on him). so I think the way he went about this is actually fairly standard for him - once one of us can get a strong townread on the other, we rarely, if ever, see a reason to question it even if the entire rest of the game thinks it makes no sense.

as a result, I think that if you wanted an easy angle to push to look like you were doing something, pointing out these interactions would seem to fit well enough. it is likely this is smth he would have noticed and thought unusual regardless of what his alignment actually was. do you disagree?

@Quil:

I'm wondering what you thought Nacho's motivation behind this was. did you think it was he-scum trying to WK me-town? if so, how do you think it differs from how town-Nacho would have approached a similar situation, assuming he had a strong town read on me? or do you just think town-Nacho wouldn't have had a strong town read on me in the way that he did, or something else entirely? also kind of wondering what happened to it since it looks like you dropped it entirely (or at least haven't pushed it any further).

[pieguyn]

And I've disliked just about all of Nachos posts, while I can follow the reasoning behind the "Muffin has scum-motivation to keep a PievReg fight going" I think it ignores a lot of how it actually panned out, I'm really hoping his answers to my questions here ease this qualms I have here because being able to lock this read in as town would be really really helpful here.

also, I realize you likely won't think this means anything, but I entirely disagree with this

in general terms, I found myself agreeing with most of what Nacho was posting about me vs. you and how RBD reacted to it. as one specific point, I believe that he thought that my 112 was "very town"; and knowing this, it would make sense that he would push RBD for disagreeing over what appears to be a key read.

it looks like (basing it off 426) most of the complaints you have with it are that 1. he read me as town at the point he did, and 2. he doesn't think anything you're saying about me is valid. for obvious reasons, I think the first point is reasonable, and the second point is fairly standard for him for how he approaches reads on me. speaking as someone who still thinks most of what you were saying about me was nonsense, it makes sense that he would stick with his own methodology for reading me (which has been correct every time) as opposed to taking stock in how other people (you) are reading me here. correct me if I'm wrong and there's more to this that I'm missing

only thing I didn't really get is that he RBD didn't actually call 112 scummy in the post where he first reacted to it (119). but, as they've gone back and clarified that they _did_ think it was scummy, that doesn't mean shit.

[pieguyn]

1) nacho never really adequately explained the special pleading he invoked as to why he pushed muffin for the conflicting read and not someone else

it's likely because of all the people who were pro-GB in me vs. GB, zmuffin was the first and the most vocal about it

I don't really remember anyone else reacting the way he did. you/Tammy reached out to me, Quil and BBM thought it might be TvT, and Yuriko/S-S weren't here. am I missing something?

[pieguyn]

the entire angle stemmed from me and GB both being town in the first place

actually now that I write this, it wasn't just about RBD disagreeing on me, it was the overall way he went about it. RBD was really the only one out of everyone in the game who specifically took a side and defended it. you could say that just disagreeing with the town read on me by itself doesn't mean anything; but if it's done in a way that's scum motivated, you'd be more likely to call it into attention/question it (what he did with them) instead of ignoring it (what he did with everyone else).

essentially, I think he thought RBD's approach looked like scum taking sides and thus pushed them over it, whereas he thought everyone else looked like their approach was indicative enough of trying to game solve that he didn't have a problem with it even if they disagreed with the read on me

I don't know if I'm explaining this very well but I know I'm usually not as critical of ppl I have town reads on already. I think this is essentially the same thing.

[pieguyn]

ofc there's also the fact that he wouldn't be expecting people who aren't familiar with my play to read it as town, which explains why he would have ignored people like Quil (and potentially yourself since I don't think we've played in a while? either way)

[pieguyn]

I don't know why anyone should be assuming that unless i'm just really fucking terrible at this game and am miles behind

bc he had town reads on both me and GB at the time?

I think he alluded to this at one point in the game but I can't find the exact post.

I think you are paraphrasing ffery's reasoning, not nacho's. Nacho made 250. What does that mean to you?

yeah, Nacho also made this:

#112 feels like a giant overreaction

The big thing I don't like about RBD's push on pieguyn is this. Do you think that overreacting is a scumtell for Pieguyn in particular? More importantly, what about pieguyn's reaction felt fake?

The push bothered me in particular because I feel like it's an important one for Muffin to make; attacking pieguyn validates GB's push and frustrates pie more, which is perfect for giving him a bit more breathing room in a playerlist where a lot of players can obvtown very quickly.

this angle is what I'm referring to when I say he thought RBD was "taking sides" and that he saw enough scum intent in RBD's push to push him over it. it's essentially the same thing (as in, validating GB's push/frustrating me).

[pieguyn]

Idk what WK means, it struck me as something scum could do to appear helpful. I haven't dropped it, it just didn't seem like something that's really up for debate.

white-knight

was there any particular reason you thought Nacho wouldn't have done the same thing as town?

[pieguyn]

I think this is very very much a difference in playstyle; I've become a fervent believer of pushing someone on differences in reads after that newbie game we keep referencing.

wahaha

[pieguyn]

I'm still trying to figure out what I make of Quil vs. S-S.

I agree with most of what S-S is posting. if he was "try hard scum", as Quil is saying, then it would make more sense that he would actually read the whole game, or pull up more than 3 quotes, or do anything that actually ... you know, requires trying hard. 605 also completely misses S-S' point (that Quil conveniently dropped that S-S' posts were "genuine" after he got accused of it being disingenuous), which I also agree with.

I also hate Quil's insistence that S-S is "agreeing" with him in 613. it's pretty obvious what S-S is saying there is that if he was scum he'd try to make a more effortful post than the one he made *in this game*; not that he'd try to make more effortful posts in general.

on the other hand, I disagree that Quil-town would need to unvote S-S at the point where he thought S-S was genuine. you'll notice my vote is still on GB despite reading them as town (lol). most of the time, if I don't have someone I feel strongly that I want to push/lynch, I don't care about where my vote is. if I scum read him, it wouldn't be for this.

@Quil:

when did you supposedly "reread" S-S and why did you not mention it when you did so (since I don't remember you posting anything along the lines of "I looked at S-S again, I think I was wrong" until right at this point. correct me if I'm wrong)? also would like to know your thoughts on what I said in the 3rd paragraph here.

[pieguyn]

What are your reads on them individually?

I had S-S town based on the town slip and his other posts around that time. the Quil interaction strengthened it.

Quil is one of the few ppl in this game I don't have some form of town read on. however, outside of the S-S push, I haven't found anything he's done so far scummy. you?

[pieguyn]

more substantive post tomorrow

[pieguyn]

Vote: Pieguyn

uhhhhhhh

can we talk about this?

(also I haven't read Mafia on the Metro. should be able to take a look at it today)

[pieguyn]

people saying I "haven't scum hunted much" recently are mostly correct. if you must know, my father got laid off on Monday, which has put me in a really awful place mentally. I hardly have any motivation to play right now. there is also the fact that I haven't had any strong scum reads at all recently - I have some reason to call most of the people in this game town (and I thought at this point Quil might be scum but I'd like to see what he does when he gets back and, at this point, read the game Nacho linked).

there's a fucking reason I declared permanent LA. I don't care if you call this "ATE" or whatever, it's not.

[pieguyn]

I might be insane but I actually think Tammy could be scum.

there are several things that I really really hate about her most recent post directed to me. but, whatever

[pieguyn]

681

if you want I can elaborate more on what I didn't like about it, but I don't have any intention of trying to push it at this point. partly bc it's one post, partly bc I don't see a point

[pieguyn]

2) she's done weird backbends to town read the ffery slot all while crapping on other people's town reads from the "meta-circle". Like the reasons she's town reading ffery is so flimsy it's not funny. In order for her to actuslly believe those are town tells for ffery, she has to believe that ffery is some scared damsel in distress when it comes to mafia. What pie is town reading ffery for is so well within her behavior as scum and how she would have to behave as svum to an extent in this player list anyway.

this continues to completely miss the point I made - and I have the feeling it's being done intentionally in order to obfuscate - and I still don't really know where it's coming from

let me try to explain it this way. if I was in a hydra with someone, and they had previously demonstrated concern when playing around someone else in the game as scum, I would not proceed to do something so obviously and transparently scummy as "make a herpaderp throwaway statement that's blatantly posturing for the consensus scum read" on them before my partner even shows up for the game. I wouldn't act, entirely without regard to what my hydra partner thinks, and put us in a position where said person they have trouble playing around ... is onto us before they even get into the fucking game. it makes no sense whatsoever. I would want to clarify with my partner what the most reasonable course of action might be before doing anything that might otherwise fuck up how they would usually play.

I elaborated on this to Regfan (who, surprise, didn't find it compelling), so it's possible she might have just missed it. but her insistence on this is something that makes me look sideways every time I try to read/reread it, and the thing is, it actually reminds me of what she did in the Capcom large theme. what happened in that game is that she had a "scum read" on notsci, who wound up flipping 3p lyncher. I had a really really big town read on notsci and defended it the entire D1 (they got lynched anyway). she spent a lot of time D1/D2 insisting that she was "right" about her scum read on notsci and that people should trust her over me as a result of it, when in reality it was functionally incorrect (3p isn't really "scum") and it was a load of bullshit she was pushing in order to discredit me.

the two situations aren't very similar, but I see a similar mindset here: insist on stuff despite it being explained already in order to discredit someone.

especially in light of the question to ffery about why she's townreading Bork, who was not very obvtown in tsles of you and played nothing like he is now, along with getting after regfan for not adequately rethinking his town reads is just so hypocritical.

I hated this because you "not being very obvtown" in Tales is a complete judgement call. yet she ignores that and uses it as a reason to push/discredit what I was thinking here.

she might have thought you weren't playing in a similar way from there to here. OK. so what? I'm pretty fucking sure I wasn't the only one who got completely snowed by you when you were in the game. why am I, specifically, the one who is in the wrong to think you were obvtown there?

this kind of thinking is something I saw a *lot* of in Capcom, as I said before. it reads as her stretching to find evidence that would support the viewpoint she wants to push - in this case, that my read on you is bad and that I'm insane for going about it in that way - when in reality it doesn't actually make sense.

3) I can't make sense of her okay this game and I hate that she ignored quil's question about if she really thought we'd all buy and allow without question a weak scum read from you guys.

this is false - I did answer the question (143). it's more an indication she didn't see it as opposed to anything alignment-relevant, but still, really?

Oh and what is kinda interesting is the anger about the not posting while being online. I don't get the anger over the accusation, and if she does somehow find it difficult to post in the first few pages of the game, why not just say that?

I thought this was interesting. partly because it's entirely arbitrary (what is the point in me saying I was having trouble posting in the first few pages, and why *wouldn't* I say this as scum?), but partly because iirc, she has played on alts in the past because she got tired of people pulling "ur posting in other games but not here" on her and wanted to avoid it. so how the fuck does she not get why I'm angry over this?

the other thing I disliked is that she completely dropped the interaction with me after 230. I would have expected her-town to see it and try to interact with me directly as opposed to taking an indirect approach in the way she's taking it here - *especially* if she had issues with the way I was approaching the game that she wanted to work out. that, in particular, doesn't seem like something that it makes sense to comment on in passing as opposed to directly.

overall, I want to be lenient about this bc as far as I can tell she just got back and read the game, but I am not a fan of where her thoughts on the whole me/GB situation stand at this point.

[pieguyn]

also to clarify, I've found ffery's posts _after_ that happened to be solidly town as well - just I didn't bother commenting on it bc I already had a town read on her and other people had made similar comments already

so my town read on her doesn't exclusively come from her early game posts, if Tammy was under that impression.

[pieguyn]

btw

I'm very seriously considering replacing out if I'm not in a position where I can put effort into this game within the next 2 days or so. I'm not in a position where I'd be able to fight my lynch or otherwise adequately look town, either mentally or RL-wise, I still really hate this game (honestly, Nacho/ffery being there for me was really the only thing that made me feel like I could continue in this game - with that gone, it is really painful for me to even want to do anything here) and I don't want to burden the game even more than I have already with a deadweight slot.

consider this official.

[pieguyn]

thanks. (((Nacho)))

I still want to at least try to give it a shot if I can bc I love this player list, just saying that if I still can't do shit ~2 days from now I'll just replace out.

[pieguyn]

ops

(((ffery)))

<3 you all.

[pieguyn]

I see your post and I'll respond when I'm back at a computer; frankly, though, the explanation for most of it should be obvious if you cross-reference my posts and I have no fucking idea why you're getting hung up on most of the stuff you're pointing out in there.

for example: you're saying I overreacted to a "fairly standard" push. OK. the problem is, MY OPINION OF IT WAS THAT IT WAS DEFINITELY NOT A FAIRLY STANDARD PUSH. you're continually trying to burn me on assumptions *you* made as opposed to what I've beenpointing out *in the game thread*.

I wish you would realize this. in other news, you're town.

[pieguyn]

Spoiler: @TAMMY

Um saying "I kinda agree" to someone who thinks a post sounds awkward is not transparently or obviously scummy. And considering you're town reading her for it, you don't even think it's scummy.

except it is? that is a kind of behavior that I generally watch out for - people who egg on wagons from the sidelines and posture to follow along with consensus reads without actually doing so. it's scum motivated in that it attracts further attention onto the person you want to push without actually requiring you to be involved in it, and you'll notice that Regfan literally pointed this out in the game thread (I think?).

the reason I think it's not scummy here is for entirely contextual reasons. you can have an action that would be scummy in a vacuum - however, when you take into account other factors, you'd realize it doesn't actually make sense coming from scum or that it's more likely to come from town. and I've said as much already.

I legitimately have no idea why you'd disagree that posturing to agree with a popular scum read is scummy, and saying "you're town reading her for it hence you don't think is scummy" isn't remotely indicative of what I actually did.

Since you've brought up cap com, I now remember that you did a similar type of back bending to town read not science due to the nonsensical way his other head was behaving, but this is an aspect of your scum hunting that doesn't make sense. People don't typically behave this way in hydras, not even as scum, especially people who have an established rapport because they hydra often.

so let me ask you this.

let's suppose this actually is what happened (which I don't agree on, for reasons I'll get into later, but anyway). you outright say that I've had similar weird town reads in a previous game, as town. you then say that this is similar to what I did here.

yes, you say it "doesn't make sense", but look at it from my POV. if it didn't make sense the last time you saw it, that will likely mean it won't make sense the next time you see it either. you literally saw me doing it as town and thought it made no sense then. if anything, this is just indicative that you don't know how I think or don't understand why I town read players for the reasons I do. this does not make me scum.

but, moving on, my town read on notsci wasn't actually incorrect. he was a 3p lyncher. IN MY VIEW, that is not "scum" - in a similar vein to the fact that any SK who is playing correctly is going to play it the exact same way they would as town, or that a leashed SK who is playing cooperatively can be treated the same as any other town player until the point they need to be lynched (despite 200+ pages of argument over it causing half the playerbase to replace out). and I entirely disagree that people who play hydras generally act independently. in the vast majority of hydras that I've played - that were actually successful as opposed to one/both of us flaking - me and my partner tend to work as a very close unit, and make extra effort to ensure that we remain synced for the most part and don't do anything contradictory to what the other one is doing. when I hydra with GIF, for example, this is usually what happens. he generally runs reaction tests, gambits, or otherwise doesn't want people to know what he's thinking - and whenever this is the case, he lets me know and I take care not to screw it up.

so yes, I will use the same kind of logic, because my read there wasn't actually wrong, and I firmly believe that, *if* notscihydra was groupscum there, their behavior would not have looked similar at all, for the reasons I pointed out in the game. and I legitimately have no idea why you think it matters that you think it "doesn't make sense" - again, look at it from my POV. you admittedly point out that I've done the same thing as town and that you disagreed with it then. OK, that's fine. but then you post that I'm doing it here, that you disagree with it, and that it makes me scum for ... LOGIC

I really have no idea what the problem there is. if you try to look at it how I would have looked at it, I think it's fairly obvious that the way I acted here was reasonable.

this essentially amounts to us disagreeing on the definition of "scum" and us disagreeing on how hydras are played. neither of these make either of us scum.

You're also acting like you are the only person in this game. I get that he gave advice to Thor for how to deal with you; that doesn't mean that he expects ffery to treat you with kid gloves in a hydra with him where he can come in and control whatever narrative he wants to. There's also huge contextual differences from that normal. You were the only real strong town voice in that game; here you are not. They would not be playing this game solely to fool you; they would have to be playing this game to fool all of us - people who have not only experience with them but with each other. Therefore, their sole motivation this game is NOT to get you on their side because it doesn't matter in this game. They would have to contend not only with how we were reading them but how we're reading each other.

I literally have a 100% - 1 rate at reading Nacho, discounting things like him NK'ing me early in the game and me not coming to a correct read on him until after I died (which every time it's happened I figured it out relatively quickly). you said IN THIS GAME that I've "actually been pretty decent at reading Nacho". Nacho (assuming he's town here) said, again in this game, that me catching him based on us disagreeing in certain key reads in the newbie game where I caught him left enough of an impression on him to make him a "fervent believer" in pushing people based on differences in key reads.

so yeah, they obviously wouldn't be trying to fool only me, but Nacho at the very least I think would be making it a priority here, even in this player list. and FWIW, I'm well aware that once you reach this point this doesn't hold water anymore since the point where ffery/Nacho corrected me that they usually don't talk pregame. but this is what I was thinking at the time, and I'm not going to say that I was unjustified in thinking it at that point in the game. just stop for a second and consider that yes, I do, in fact, usually play hydras as one unit, and consider the kind of stuff Nacho has said about me.

at that point, do you really think it's that unreasonable that I would come up with the angle I did?

I didn't do anything to discredit you concerning not science that game. I just started demanding he get lynched. I might have told you you were wrong about him, which you were, but I didn't discredit you. Yes, I was insisting I was right about my scum read on not science day one and day two, which I was. And considering day two you weren't around because we killed you night one, how in the green hills is me insisting I was right on day two a discredit to you?

hm. I went back and checked and I think I was misremembering exactly how it went down. I think I was thinking of this post:

Subject: Capcom Crossover Chaos - GAME OVER~

welp that's fucking fantastic

Skitty wagon is bad and everyone on it should feel bad. we are not lynching them today. if you do not want to lynch Bulba for whatever reason, get the fuck on either BRO or TD or come up with something, but I can't possibly be the only person who's noticing the momentum shift that's going on right now.

I just want to mark this post for when skitty flips scum and bulba flips town.

which was from D1. but on D2 you had a shitton of posts saying stuff like "I was right about notsci D1, lynch ooba plz". which I thought was really unnatural at the time since I didn't really consider your read on him to be "correct" per se - and even if it was, I thought the way you were drawing attention to it was odd (like scum pointing back to a correct read in the hopes that people would read them as town off it). I also remembered a lot more pressure on BRO D2 and you using this as an excuse to deflect off him, but I couldn't find it either (this is what I meant when I said "discredit" - not the notsci read but the BRO read I pushed for basically the entirety of D1); I thought there were a lot more posts similar to the one I quoted above.

essentially this, again, amounts to us disagreeing on whether 3p = "scum" or not. no, I was not wrong about notsci being "town" and I would form the exact same read if I saw him playing the same way in another game.

hilariously if this is true, then it means I scum read you for reasons that wound up being entirely wrong the entire time. but either way, I hope this explains more about where I'm coming from here.

What I was hoping I'd see as an answer to this was you stepping back and realizing that in this player list your assumption couldn't be more incorrect, and that he'd be more likely to get flak and questions from us than following. It's a bit unnerving and concerning that you didn't actually think about that and instead just went yep.

I admit in hindsight I was wrong about this. but at the time, it made sense. I saw a bunch of people reading my opening as forced, and I've very nearly been run over and almost lynched in the past by nearly a majority of the game just thinking my posts were "forced" and that was all there was to it - that Xenosaga game me/some other people have been referencing was where this happened - and I absolutely detest it because there's no room for argument. you either think it's forced or you don't. I was seeing Regfan calling my posts forced and then ffery and RBD both posting the same opinion. which is basically what I had said (Regfan pushing a poor reason for me being scum and other people agreeing with it).

I'm really not sure why this is a big deal.

Because I don't understand why you would be angry. You completely overreacted to a typical push. I don't know what you're trying to prove by saying why wouldn't you say it as scum when it makes no sense for you to react that way as town. I *can* see scum who are frustrated at being caught early and before doing anything lashing out though.

again, try to look at it from my POV. you say it makes no sense for me to react that way as town. I personally entirely disagree. it's a dumb accusation. I do not think I have ever actually seen a time, up to this point where Regfan linked me games where he had used it, where "posting in other threads but not here" was accurately used to find scum. every single time I've seen it, it invariably lands on town who just doesn't give a shit about the game for whatever reason or otherwise has a legitimate excuse. as an example, in that Joss Whedon game ffery linked me earlier, Regfan pushed a similar tell on ffery/AP (town) because they were claiming they were busy, but "responding to posts immediately". how is someone supposed to defend themselves from something like that?

that, plus, the only reason I didn't post was because I was busy elsewhere - and I had said as much after they pushed me, and they DEFENDED the accusation. how would you expect someone to react when they get pushed over stuff that entirely comes down to their RL? how do you think _you'd_ react if people kept pushing you for being inactive when you were working on finishing your dissertation - and they claimed they actually had a legitimate reason for pushing you after you came back and explained why you were inactive? (congrats, btw!)

again, at that point, I really don't see why you - or anyone else - thinks the way I reacted there was unreasonable.

And now I'm going to pull your phrase. Why *wouldn't* I have interacted directly with it as scum? You've brought up cap com, you know full well that I'm capable of interacting with you directly about things as scum since I spent a lot of time interacting with you on your bro read so I'm missing the point of your expectations here.

But I've been gone for several days and haven't interacted with anyone. Empire pointed out some things that he was thinking about you and I interacted with that by giving my thoughts to him. Rempire and I have a pretty good understanding about how each other think and get reads, of course I'm going to interact with them on it.

But quite frankly, I'd probably not really directly interact with you anyway even if I was around. I don't understand your thought process or your approach this game, have been annoyed at some of the interactions I have read, and wouldn't find adding to it to be very productive.

that's fair. it just struck me as weird that you'd reach out to me and then drop it when you came back.

I understand not wanting to interact and everything; but I'm hoping this at least makes it a bit more clear where I'm coming from with some of the issues you're having with my play here. I really don't know if I've explained anything here better than I have already and I apologize in advance if I haven't. either way, I'm really glad you took the time to respond to this and everything bc I was over there freaking out over it and at the very least it makes me feel a lot better about your slot.

[pieguyn]

TOWN(S->W): sangres, GS, S-S <gap> Gentlemen <gap> BBM?
{Yuriko, Quil, RBD}

I want Yuriko and Quil to get in here with updated thoughts ASAP. as much as I hate to admit it after freaking out over the meta-circle being cleared earlier, I have town reads on the majority of the active players. (also

@Nacho

, I haven't read Metro yet; this should likely come tonight)

[pieguyn]

Though if you get a chance, pieguy, I'd like to see you talk about at least your read on me (and/or nati) in more depth.

where I'm at with you is that I think some things you've done have looked kinda town, but compared to the other people in this game I think you might be scum just via POE

first off, I still don't agree that "there was no argument to take sides on". Regfan was scum reading me and I was scum reading him. even if we hadn't started fighting yet, I think it was fairly easy to tell that's where it was going (see: Quil saying "this is getting interesting" as soon as I put a scum read on GB up). and regardless, I don't see how it affects what I had pointed out earlier - that I had 3 major reasons for being suspicious of them at the point where I decided they were town instead, none of which I think were "nonsensical" even in hindsight - since you had said this in 328 after most of it had happened. this isn't remotely a strong point since it could just as easily be that I didn't make this clear in my posts or, even if I did, you just missing it.

the paragraph of 316 where you said I took a "long time" to write my responses to GB was more in line with what I'd expect you to do as scum. it felt like a poor attempt at emulating reasoning similar to, for instance, calling me scum in Xenosaga for posting 2 posts immediately after each other. but I could easily enough see you just posting it as town, so it doesn't really matter much

I'm really meh on Nati's posts. it didn't feel like she was scum hunting - she had reads, but didn't do much to push them. but given she's hardly played at all recently, is in a hydra for this game, and was only active for 2 RL days and her reads up to this point have been practically the opposite of yours, I don't really care about that, either.

but anyway, I've found the way you've went about your pushes on both sangres and myself to fit more in line with your town game than your scum game. I don't *really* know how to elaborate on this, but in general, there are things I usually expect you to do as scum at various points when making pushes on people - none of which you've done here - and you can say that you usually manipulate your meta, but I've found that given enough time I can generally get a handle on whether a given push or read of yours is fake or not, and I don't think this is what you're doing here. I don't agree with the reasoning behind the sangres push (and I first thought you might be scum for it for the reason I'll get into in the next paragraph), but after seeing more of it, I think the reasoning behind it makes enough sense that I don't have a problem with it.

we have the exact same reads outside of sangres. in addition to the fact that I would take this as a good sign in any other game, I think it's more important than usual here bc it's not how I would have expected you to approach this as scum - and this doesn't go for just you, either. I would expect that in order for whoever is scum to win this game, they would need to put a lot of effort into breaking down mutual town reads and keep enough avenues to push ppl open as possible, since there literally just aren't enough lynchable people otherwise (bork said something similar when I got paranoid of Tammy earlier). that you're shutting down suspicion on people who'd in this case otherwise have a fair chance at being lynchable - BBM comes to mind - is a good sign. I like the way you started letting up on sangres in your most recent string of posts, for the same reason: it's not what I would have expected you to do here if you were scum, *especially* when you didn't appear to be getting any flak for it anymore and had done a good enough job defending most of the issues people had with it. it would have been a mostly-free angle of suspicion that you could have kept pushing, which would have been really valuable in this gamestate.

this is a large part of why I'm mostly content with the way the gamestate is now and the sort of thing I'm looking out for from Yuriko/Quil when they come back into the game, btw: I don't see anyone playing in the way I would expect scum to play here. the exception to this is if we're all just horribly wrong on one or more of the consensus town reads and someone like GS or sangres is scum.

outside of what I've pointed out about sangres/myself, I haven't minded any of your other reads (and the reasoning for them) up to this point, either; as I alluded to earlier I particularly liked the BBM read.

the only thing really making me think you might be scum is that I have way too many town reads elsewhere, but I would really really want to be sure I'm not going wrong on any of these reads first bc I still haven't been able to figure out what your scum strategy here would be.

[pieguyn]

Initial instinct when reading Pies "I think Tammy could be scum" in Post 775 is that it fits the "Scum trying to be town-read via taking an unusual/unlikey" stance, didn't like the "I don't see any point in elaborating" in Post 777 when there would have very much been a reason for Town!Pie to try and point out why someone universally town-read might be scum if she FoS'ed them

it was more a paranoid thought than me thinking they had a greater-than-average chance of flipping scum

I figured I probably was just wrong and didn't want to create a bunch of noise about it (I hope you can see my point here given you literally just said the discussion between me/Tammy afterward was "entirely useless"). if I kept seeing more stuff that pinged me after posting that, I would have made a bigger point of it/elaborated on what I was seeing. either way, it should be pretty obvious that I was open to elaborating on it *if* anyone was interested in it.

[pieguyn]

I'm mostly just sitting here waiting for Yuriko to finish catching up, if she ever gets around to doing so. at this point I'm really underwhelmed by what she's posted; also I agree with Regfan that her read on RBD felt more like she was attempting to fake confusion as opposed to actually trying to read them.

[pieguyn]

Explain the intital Pie town read (I want this in depth considering you said he was 'very very very obviously town', explain the exact thought process behind voting him (I still want you to comment on the reasons I was/am scumreading him for)

also, I'm still about 9000% sure you're on the wrong track with this

it's as I said before. Nacho and I generally feel confident enough reading each other that we don't really need to worry about how other ppl read us and can take the initiative to do it ourselves. and I can definitely see why he'd be reading my one post as "very very very obviously town".

I think you (and everyone else) are making a much bigger deal over the vote on me than it actually is. I don't think it was scummy - although I would like to see it explained, it's mostly out of curiosity over anything else. there is something that might be important that I think factored into it but I'll wait for Nacho first before saying what it is.

[pieguyn]

not CC'ing

[pieguyn]

so Nacho

when you get a chance, talk to me about

BBM

[pieguyn]

lololololol

[pieguyn]

Quil is likely the partner. more or less for that town read she attempted to put up on him in her reads post (848) for vague reasons which in actuality I think were entirely fakeable - gut says it could be newb scum who was afraid to commit to a town read on her partner.

[pieguyn]

I'd recommend Yuriko not being at L-1 for the time being if there's still stuff we want to do this game day.

bbl

[pieguyn]

Ok to assume this is now moot?

yep

in other news, I want to say RBD is likely town off of Yuriko's read on them. I realize it's objectively fakeable, but I think that kind of read coming from newb-scum is more likely to be on a townie than a scum partner - she's not pointing out problems with their actual posts because she has trouble finding legitimate angles of attack to push on them and doesn't want to risk tripping over herself making a bullshit push. I'm not sure about this, though.

[pieguyn]

in either case, I don't really have anything I want to do that can't wait until tomorrow.

bbl for real

[pieguyn]

should be around later tonight

Nacho, do you make anything of my point in 1011?

[pieguyn]

I'm currently on vacation and haven't had any time to sit down and read this game. I've very briefly skimmed though and I have an intermediate question.

@zmuffin, specifically:

objectively speaking, how strong do you think Nacho's town case on me was? I'm asking this bc I had an epiphany earlier and I need a second opinion on how someone from the outside would view the case - and afaict you still have a lot of reservations about my play here.

one thing I can point out is that I'm near 100% S-S is town based on this page (specifically the GB vote)

I should *actually* have time to catch up later tonight. if I missed anyone's posts/questions, I'll get to it then.

[pieguyn]

haven't fully caught up but

1. <- never lynching GS this game. I still need to evaluate Nacho's push on them.

2. there's a bunch of things that are making me have serious doubts about this Quil lynch. if we're going to wagon him I'd at least like if we could wait until tonight (a few hours from now) so I can elaborate more on this.

[pieguyn]

If instead you're referring to his points about your early attack on gentlemen and other early posts in the game, then I think it's pretty weak (and probably wasn't intended as a town case, given how early in the game it was, so much as an explanation for his thought processes there earlier on). It's again something that's reasonable enough for nacho to think. But not an objectively strong case by any means.

it's about both. the point about "emotional manipulation" in particular was indeed something that I would not do as scum (it is possible I would have genuinely felt a similar way as scum, but I likely wouldn't have brought out-of-game factors into it in the way that I did) - I consider lying about stuff like that to be a really cheap scum strategy that I would rather not use to win games as opposed to attempting to look town via normal means - and he was correct in catching onto that. and the rest of what he said was for the most part correct and (I thought) objectively made sense.

but either way, I was asking about this bc I saw what he was saying and a lot of it it really resonated with me; and then I saw GB essentially handwave dismissing the entire case. I think it was pretty obvious a lot of what GB was initially saying about me could be attributed to misunderstandings about what was actually going on ("push" and the activity tell as two OTOH). Nacho outright points this out. I would expect a town player to take something like that in and reevaluate it since it means their entire idea of how I'd act as town vs. scum was wrong from the get go; what we saw was essentially them covering their ears and going "lol nope". then he does it again: Nacho says "pie isn't the kind of player to do this as scum", Reg goes "I don't trust your meta on her" when he's probably had the most accuracy reading me out of anyone in this game barring the _one_ scum game that happened recently where I was walking on eggshells to make sure he'd read me as town (and even then this was likely because he was just underestimating my scum game).

the epiphany I had was that there is a chance I'm one of the mislynches scum needs to win this game. and when you look at it from that POV, it makes a hell of a lot more sense that Reg would just handwave dismiss all the points for me being town and try to posture against Nacho's experience with me as opposed to factoring it in.

obviously I'm biased bc I know what my own alignment is and I think Nacho and I tend to read games very similarly a lot of the time. however, if you don't think it was that strong a case, this holds a lot less water than I first thought it would.

[pieguyn]

This was largely ignored because of the claim stuff happening at the time, but did you have a scum read on bbMolla at this point?

not really. Yuriko being town would have left {Quil, you}, I still thought you might be town and wanted to talk about BBM bc while I thought he was town I didn't really feel that strongly about it.

Pie, what do you think of me townreading you based on that post?

you're for the most part correct that I wouldn't have made 784 as scum

I don't fake* that kind of stuff as scum. it is possible that I wouldn't have legitimately felt that way as scum and been motivated by getting a town read from you - however, if I was going to make a post like that as scum the exact specifics of it would likely be different. it would have been more "I hate this game bc I'm being ran up for nonsense reasons", not "I hate this game bc even though I don't really mind being ran up for nonsense reasons it happened at a point in my RL where I can't do shit to show everyone I'm town here and stop it". essentially I wouldn't have tied my RL situation into it that much if I was scum here. I have no idea if this makes any sense so ask me to clarify if it doesn't.

[pieguyn]

So I don't find it problematic that he's fighting against nachos points on you, I think he's just digging his heels in because a) he thinks he's right, b) he has strong town reads, and c) he hasn't seen enough from you in particular to shake that read.

that's fair. I don't feel strongly about that at all bc I'm likely biased (which is why I wanted an outside opinion on the case) and I can easily enough see it just being him feeling strongly about the read.

[pieguyn]

VOTE: gold saucer

so the first thing I want to address is the fact that he apparently wanted to lynch GS at this point in the game. I don't think GS is actually lynchable here (Tammy is saying that worst-case scenario a whole bunch of ppl including me would pile on them resulting in them being lynched, but I don't think this would have been an apparent possibility at this point in the game). I really don't know if this makes sense coming from scum. scum at this point needs 3 mislynches I think to win - so it makes no sense to push on probably the hardest target in the game. I could potentially see this as being him pushing on a difficult target to get town read, except for 2 things:

gb
soft

sangres
rbd
bbmolla

pie
gold

most to least town eye modus operandi

his other target is myself, and even with GB pushing me I don't think I'm *that* easy to lynch in this gamestate. so I'm wondering if he's scum here what his strategy is. who exactly is he trying to lynch? what makes him think the person he wants to lynch can actually *get* lynched? I think RBD is likely the easiest lynch target besides Quil himself, yet I don't see any kind of RBD suspicion coming from him, so I'm left wondering what exactly he's trying to do.

I don't think the way he played this makes much sense coming from scum. and the other thing:

Initial instinct when reading Pies "I think Tammy could be scum" in Post 775 is that it fits the "Scum trying to be town-read via taking an unusual/unlikey" stance, didn't like the "I don't see any point in elaborating" in Post 777 when there would have very much been a reason for Town!Pie to try and point out why someone universally town-read might be scum if she FoS'ed them though the explanation in Post 781 is understandable from her PoV. I do actually really like the explanation behind the read on Muffin in Post 817 though, I can follow the entire thought process in it.

GB literally pointed out in another post that they were wary of people taking unusual stances to get town read. so I have a lot of doubts that he'd do this while outright knowing there's a good chance it would flat-out get shut down from the get go.

the other thing I still don't think makes sense from scum here is that he backed off of sangres for as far as I can tell no reason. I'm pretty sure sangres is more easily lynchable than both myself or RBD, and I don't think he was getting that much flak for the sangres push (correct me if I'm wrong on this). so I really don't know why he would have just given up on it entirely and went to push two ppl one of whom won't ever get lynched and the other would likely be harder to lynch/push without looking bad off it.

I find it nearly impossible that he'd forget that Molla CC'ed doc

Hahahaha, I totally did. Lol

I don't really think this is a town tell but I want to comment on it regardless. GB I think said that Quil "forgetting" BBM CC'ed Yuriko was a scum tell. I entirely disagree with that; I think it was null *at worst*. if anything, I would want to call it a town tell bc I think scum would be mindful of how something like that would look and the entire point of scum fake claiming firefighter is that scum would know who the firefighter actually is, but it's objectively null.

but my patience will dwindle every time you pop in with troll-type posts

Btw every time you call my posts trolling I become less and less inclined to bother to convince you because I feel like I'm not going to be able to cut through. Plus the temptation to put in no effort so I can just get lynched and flip confirmed town tomorrow rises.

I liked this post. I strongly disagreed with people writing Quil's posts off as "trolling" bc it made literally no sense (even if you had reason to think it was, just handwave dismissing it is dumb - my first instinct was to want to know why GS bc even if I thought they were town it'd give more insight into what his thought process was), and it makes sense that he'd take offense to it. it also explains a lot of the issues I initially had with the way he was playing this, which was primarily that there wasn't much of an attempt to game solve with any of his posts this game day. this could also be explained by him just not having a chance to do anything.

to the contrary, I had a really brief look at the TM game and I don't actually care about Quil's tone here. I think something like that is relatively easy to fake once you're aware of it. and I still have strong enough town reads elsewhere that I really don't know if any of this is compelling enough to override any of it.

either way, I'd like if someone could comment on this bc I'm really not sure if his play here makes sense coming from scum.

[pieguyn]

GS and S-S are my strongest town reads. I haven't had any problem with sangres's posts on the past few pages but I want Nacho to explain where he was coming from first before I say exactly why I think this is the case.

GB and RBD I think are also town.

I think Quil is the most likely to be scum just via POE, but I really do not see his recent play coming from scum at all. I'd really like if someone could tell me if I'm just insane or if what I'm pointing out here actually makes sense since I'm not sure when I'll have a good chance to reread in-depth or where I should look next.

[pieguyn]

@pie I'd like to engage with you about the Quilford post you just made tomorrow because I've not really been reading Quilford except as a musical chairs read compared to everyone else since early day 1 and this is a good primer to get into it.

got it. I likely won't be around until the evening, though.

[pieguyn]

I still need to evaluate Nacho's push on them.

You don't have any initial inklings about it?

my initial inkling was what you said (that you weren't scum reading her), but I wanted to actually sit down and read it first because Tammy appeared to feel really really strongly you were scum.

ftr, now that you've said as much, I can say I don't mind you poking at her for this reason - I disagree you were trying to lynch them or push them as scum. so eh

[pieguyn]

if we arnt lynching quil its RBD or or GB. im entirely agnostic when it comes to these 3

Why do you think GB could be scum?
Why not lynch pie?

do you have a scum read on me?

[pieguyn]

tried reading again. Nacho, why do you need GS to be "more invested" in the game than they currently are? do you think they might be scum or do you just want to hear their thoughts on the game? if it's the latter, why is that apparently necessary enough to keep poking at them (despite a lack of time due to RL coming from one head) over it?

I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to get out of doing this.

[pieguyn]

Something that just occured to me while reading the latest Gold Saucer vs. sangres stuff: so we know that trees that get mislynched get to stick around forever basically unless they get doused/ignited (a process that takes at least two day phases to do)...my question is how do you guys expect this to inform the scum strategy in this game? I have some theories about it but I'd like to see what all of you think first.

As a hint for what I think: we might be approaching this game the wrong way.

in terms of mislynching players, if I was scum I probably wouldn't give a shit. a mislynch is a mislynch. if they couldn't get me lynched before, I'd assume they couldn't get me lynched after getting lynched themselves, either.

in terms of nightkills, I would *hopefully* aim to douse as many people as possible and then ignite them all on the last night (2 on N3, 3 on N4)

I'm gonna say right now that I'm against any form of "lynch a strong player so they can be around after getting lynched". if you get caught up in stuff like that, you're playing the wrong game.

[pieguyn]

this is ridiculous

I think I have strong reason to town read everyone besides Quil or maybe RBD if I squint really hard. {BBM, GS} is my "absolutely not touching this ever" pile. sangres is almost there but I still have some paranoia as to Nacho's recent play, in particular why he would handle the Tammy read that way. I think he'd know doing what he did here wouldn't have helped anything even if he wasn't necessarily scum reading her.

I probably won't *actually* have any more time to reread until sometime tomorrow.

[pieguyn]

What's your GB read? I looked through your day 2 iso and you haven't had much to say about them lately.

there was something that specifically kept making me think they were town when I reread them but I forget what it was OTOH

most of the stuff I dislike about their play, namely their approach of handwave dismissing people disagreeing with them as "awful" or "didn't read the thread properly" (which I think has scum motivation in that it allows you to appear like you're doing shit but not actually having to do anything to reevaluate when ppl tell you you're wrong or convince other people of your reads) and their read on me, I think is just me being annoyed at them as opposed to objectively having anything to do with their alignment. plus Tammy said earlier neither of these were scum tells for him.

I'm finding myself thinking that the sheer persistence he's having with the read on me is actually a town tell, not a scum tell. it reminds me of how I usually feel when I think someone is being widely town read for bad reasons and I won't stop until I've cut through it all (I think I would have found myself doing something similar to Titus and/or DV if I was actually in the Signs and Void game). plus, the conviction he initially had when he first started thinking I was scum I still think is a bit ridiculous for scum-Reg to have faked.

a lot of the stuff they did outside of that has resonated with me a lot. as the most recent example, their reasoning behind the Quil read mirrors mine: they've got conflicting feelings about him being scum but they don't like that he's shut down and stopped doing anything town recently.

in general, once I look past how they went about the push on me, I see a lot of things that I don't think make sense coming from scum.

[pieguyn]

if you're still here, can you give a tl;dr of why RBD? anything is fine.

[pieguyn]

and now I'm just back to waffling on whether there might be an ulterior motive to what GB is doing with me this game

as well as RBD who I'm currently in the middle of rereading

@ffery:

do you disagree with 1400?

[pieguyn]

ftr I'm *still* not seeing jack shit that points to RBD being scum here

[pieguyn]

have you played with scum-Nati before?

nope. she's been town every game we've had together.

you've seen scum-her before, right?

[pieguyn]

fwiw I remember when I first saw her posts here I thought her tone was a lot different from her town games, but I didn't do anything with it bc that by itself is kind of eh. I don't know if that's what you're reading, though (and don't expect you to answer whether it is or not).

I'm in the middle of writing another wall (wahaha) and I think I'm seeing more things that point to them being town than scum. I'm somewhat conflicted, though.

[pieguyn]

The explanation here makes me feel a lot better about the way you were pushing me in the early stages of the game, though. Like, I don't think these are particularly strong points, but I can see why you in particular would think this way given certain things.

so I find this interesting more or less because of these posts from early on D1:

Oh, and just because I wanna be able to point back to this in post-game and brag about my reads.

Calling a Yuriko-Nacho scum team right now.

If that's not the team, this post never happened and no one ever read it.

-Nati

er... Submitted early.

I think you're bullshitting the strength of your pieguy town read.

I would vote you because you haven't done anything particularly town yet and leave it at that.

That would be an even worse angle than your current push, tbh, and I probably would have driven you into the ground if you even tried that.

But yes, your only other real options would be pushing Yuriko (who hasn't really done anything town but you have a very awkward town read on for setup spec which doesn't make a whole lot of sense), Soft-Spoken (for... not posting, I guess?) or bbMolla (even though I don't think you could actually make a case on bbMolla).

-Nati

if zmuffin is scum here, he laid down a bunch of false associatives between Yuriko and sangres, lynched Yuriko D1 as you'd expect, and then ..... forgot about it entirely?

I really don't know if that makes sense especially given this kind of player list where you essentially need as many mislynches as possible in order to make it to endgame. even in a standard player list, I usually don't see scum just give up after laying down interactions with the express purpose of linking ppl towards their partners.

[pieguyn]

what I'm saying there is that, based on 357/364, scum-zmuffin's strategy would have been setting you up as a potential Yuriko partner. so I'm pretty sure that, if he was scum here, he would have been continuing to pushing you as scum and bringing said associatives he pointed out back up in order to lynch you next as opposed to backing off in the way that he did here.

I think he definitely could have made 357 as scum, it's how it ties in to what he did D2 that I don't think makes any sense coming from scum-him (especially in this game).

also, good news: I can read MS 100%, so this might be ez mode.

[pieguyn]

also, I got sidetracked halfway through this and I think it might actually be S-S

[pieguyn]

I think BBM + Soft-Spoken/ Gold Saucer is scum.

Soft-Spoken > Gold Saucer in scumminess I think

so I first thought Quil might have been Yuriko's partner because of that half-assed town read she tried to put up on him. I think it might actually be the other way around and those "reads" she had at the end were just half-assed distancing. GS is 100% town, leaving ...

on S-S' side of the coin, his approach to the Yuriko wagon was to treat it like a "policy lynch" - which in retrospect I don't like since there were several people who had legitimate reasons for Yuriko being scum here.

Spoiler: everything s-s said about yuriko

yuriko is a decent policy lynch, but im not seeing any substance in a yuriko push fyi

i mean the whole deal where yuriko seems like she is afraid town will lose because she thinks its scumsided. that was a marginal towntell imo... its just... its hard to defend someone who is so chronically inactive.

i guess im not really the proactive forum player that i thought i was. i was in games that had little to no content and was eager to force things to happen... now i hardly have the energy to post after a 45 minute catch-up session. ill be the counterbalance. when yall run out of steam and your gums stop flappin as much ill fill in the blanks

im not going to pretend like i have any solid reads atm... honestly there is too much going on, and too many talented players... im used to there being a few low hanging fruit types that i can push and and see who sheeps and whatnot... or just make myself look scummy. but this isnt really the game for those antics so ima havta learn to be a more sophisticated player maybe.

If lynching yuriko is one of those things you have to do then go for it. id rather see someone be adventurous and step out on a limb and hard push one of your meta-buddies but the courage to do so seems rather lacking, even among the people who do have legitimate fos's ... maybe lynching yuriko will be the thing that moves this game foreward.

your posts are bearable for the most part. the problem i have with the huge wall posts is the ones where there is no place for my eyes to rest or (subject/content) speed-read

sometimes i even make huge posts but, they are chopped up with subjects, @'s , quotes... ect. when i see a neverending stream of text that is impossible to skim through i just shut down.

my reads are ATM... pie is town. most people are town-leaning (sangres slot recently moved from town to town leaning for me thanks to nachos posting) quil gives me the WTF's but im not sure that qualifies as a scumread. yuriko is begging for a policy lynch. this game is rather unreadable as a whole to me right now.

im done with waiting for yuriko to post. tbh if yuriko is town im gunna have a hard time forgiving her for not replacing out

VOTE: YurikoJasmine now is the time to post anything you possibly can. idc if you arnt caught up.

l-1

Hence my very blunt "She's firefighter or scum" words.

hahah i saw this coming when i saw yurikos claim

and ya to state the obvious here... scum has no reason to cc, and scum has no reason not to claim under duress. no brainer.

usually my worst town performances are in the easiest games so yuriko being scum makes sense on so many levels.

in either case, I don't really have anything I want to do that can't wait until tomorrow.

bbl for real

good point. selfhammers suk

UNVOTE:

i just did the math and its actually CCing the FF and winning the cc is not a bad position for scum to be in if molla was scum and quil wasnt.


but thats just paranoia speaking.


yuriko is coming out with some rather strange fos's (me/gold) that arnt substantiated.

in fact yuriko was right from the getgo... this is a rather scumsided setup.

its going to give me a stroke trying to explain it all, but i dont think thats necessary.

maybe not overall scumsided... lets say swingy. if town has unlynchables, scum has perfect priming targets and wont misplay any night whatsoever... especially with FF dead... sp basically if yuriko is town and we lynch her its a 4v1 with no clears mechanically d3

in other words. we have 1 mislynch and no claimable roles unless mafia primes someone who is later lynched.

yuriko if you are town you really need to try harder here. you WILL be hammered 99%

in general, he didn't *really* commit to a read either way on her and tried to claim it as a policy-ish vote for her continuing to stall out content. I think there is scum motivation here in that he didn't want to look too bad if Yuriko actually got lynched, but wanted to hold out as long as he could if the momentum swung a different way and he could lynch someone else instead. in hindsight, it's fairly different from what, for instance, GB did (committed to a firm stance, laid out play-based reasons for it, and stuck with it the whole way through).

he voted Yuriko really late, which makes sense if he wasn't seeing the scum reads on her based on her play. but I think it'd be fairly typical for scum to bus in that position.

the last sentence 1079 kind of reads like overjustification. from a town POV, I think it was really obvious Yuriko was scum here, and it was also obvious that her last-minute "reads" were really awful. what he did feels somewhat like scum being overly cautious about their interactions with a partner - like they think it's a good thing to point out, when in fact what they're saying is in actuality silly/pointless for town to say. I think it's more likely that town would just leave it out entirely or say something along the lines of "yep, Yuriko's reads are worthless".

I need to go back and figure out what/if S-S had anything to say about RBD/GB's Yuriko pushes.

@S-S:

what, if anything, did you make of GB's 862 when they posted it?

[pieguyn]

I'm currently reading the entire game again (focusing on S-S' posts in context) and am up to p25.

honestly, compared to everything else in the game, I think most of what S-S has done so far has been relatively fakeable. the only really blindingly town thing so far has been the arsonist townslip, but I don't think that's unfakeable at all anymore. I think that if he's scum here, he likely planned it out pregame, which would also account for specifically how it played out. I still agree with zmuffin's assessment that it didn't really come off as forced, but I'm not going to write it off as town bc of that especially coming from someone who's apparently capable of faking shit like that.

I don't know if he straight up admits "I can fake this as scum" after the fact as scum unless he had reason to believe there'd be someone who'd call him out on it, but if he would have invented such an unorthodox strategy to begin with, it doesn't seem unreasonable.

I'd like if someone could tell me if I'm just being dumb or not.

[pieguyn]

Hi pie I love you

hi MS I love you too <3

[pieguyn]

I actually managed to get to the end of D1 and wound up with an entirely unreadable post that I haven't filtered in any way whatsoever. tl;dr is that I'm actually really concerned with how S-S played this: I'm seeing a lot of poking at alternate targets to Yuriko (RBD, sangres), while ignoring the majority of the Yuriko-related discussion that happened. the point where he decided to vote Yuriko (958 ~ 959) came immediately after GB's 956 where he essentially said he was voting Yuriko, which was about the point where it became obvious ppl weren't going to tolerate Yuriko stalling for content and would likely lynch her - if that was what his strategy was, it makes a lot of sense that he'd give up and bus her at that point when it was obvious it wasn't getting anywhere. the reasoning behind said pushes were him sheeping sangres on RBD and in general not making sense of any of Nacho's posts, which once you get down to it is pretty weak.

this might make sense if he legitimately just didn't see anything beyond "policy" for Yuriko being scum. but the thing is, there was stuff like Regfan specifically disagreeing with the initial town read he put up (657), and a *lot* of points where people put up legitimate non-policy reasons for Yuriko being scum, and he *still* didn't seem to notice any of it

Yuriko's 1089 was interesting. GS, GB, and S-S had all posted saying they scum read her but S-S was the only one she questioned - as if she was specifically going out of her way to interact with him. compare to 1064 re: GS' scum read on her which accomplishes basically nothing whatsoever. this could also just be because she had him as her top "scum read".

his play this game day also passes the "makes sense coming from scum" test in that I haven't actually seen him do anything, and when he did, he didn't really commit to any firm reads and instead left a lot of options open for scum reads

someone please please please tell me I'm just being ridiculously dumb here, bc the more I look at this the more sense I think it makes - and I really don't know if Quil's recent play makes sense coming from scum

[pieguyn]

k I'm about to pass out any second now. ask me if you want more elaboration on any of this.

[pieguyn]

i think quilford-slot is probably the last scum still!

Would you consider his replace out a sort of depressed "we've-lost" replace out then?

yeah
being in his position as scum in this game would be absolutely torturous because he knows he's going to lose
but he also knows there's going to be pages and pages and pages and pages of discussion and that people will expect him to produce a lot and nothing he ever produces will be good enough and bleh

I'm reading it the exact opposite way. replacing out as scum because "lol I'm fucked" is a huge dick move and something I would never expect anyone not named Varsoon to pull. plus, I don't really know Quil very well, but from what I've seen, it really just doesn't seem like his style.

it also does a lot to explain why he did fuck all this entire game day regardless of what his alignment actually is.

but hey, you're out of ideas? maybe reading what I just posted about S-S might give you a fresh perspective on things!

[pieguyn]

in fact,

VOTE: S-S

I think basically everyone in this game has done a bunch of shit that's borderline unfakeable. go back and read S-S' posts. they all are pretty town, sure, but in terms of things that are absolutely-certainly coming from town? there's nothing there except possibly the town slip from the start and both heads of GB said that was fakeable coming from him.

if you disagree, comment on why I'm incorrect to town read RBD for adopting a strategy that doesn't make sense as scum. or why I'm wrong that it's really dumb for Quil to replace out as scum in this position. or why what I'm saying here about S-S' interactions with Yuriko doesn't make sense, or why you're reading them as town. or DO ANYTHING.

[pieguyn]

how do you think his RL factored into him not doing anything here?

I really don't think it's a good idea to call him scum for lurking if it could just as easily be bc he didn't have enough time to do anything. unless this is about something else entirely.

[pieguyn]

BBM
GS <- there's no way they could be scum here
sangres <- even if I get paranoid of Nacho from time to time, ffery's towntold a bunch of times by now, and nothing will ever change that. there's no way this could be scum here either unless they pulled some batshit insane scum game out of their ass from nowhere.
GB <- has done a bunch of unfakeable shit. I don't give a crap anymore, based on what I've seen of both Regfan's town/scum games and what people have told me in this game I'd say I'm the exact same way Regfan is where you just can't bring yourself to get invested in games and enjoy manipulating people as scum. I can tell his posts are town because I'm the exact same way. sometimes I flip out and start thinking there's scum motivation there, but no, there just isn't. he's just too caught up in his read on me and has shut down and stopped doing any town shit recently as a result of that. I've literally done the exact same thing as town before in multiple games, NY169 as one example, and if zmuffin was still here he could attest to that.

^^^ THESE TOWNREADS ARE ALL EQUALLY STRONG AS FUCK AND I STILL DON'T GET WHY PEOPLE ARE DISAGREEING. HINT, HINT ^^^

RBD <- sure, they *could* be scum, but I haven't seen anything they've done so far that's been scum motivated. I have no idea why other people think it is, either, and don't want to lynch based entirely on POE when no one can actually explain why their play makes sense coming from scum.
Quil <- I still have no idea what he was trying to do if he actually is scum here.

S-S <- ???

[pieguyn]

I don't agree with hito's case on RBD, will explain why when I'm not busy doing other stuff on site.

[pieguyn]

Conflicted on Rancid Broderick Drake. He has a lot of hallmarks of bussing; early vote on the scumbuddy while the active pushes are outside of Yuriko. Notice how Drake is very passionately involved in the non-Yuriko arguements, while hardly mentioning Yuriko, and yet his vote doesn't move off of her all day.

I don't think it means anything that he didn't really do anything to "push" Yuriko. Yuriko hardly did anything at all this game. her initial posts were all setup spec and she didn't start doing anything substantive at all until very late in the game day. therefore, it makes sense he'd spend an amount of time pushing her proportional to the amount of posts she actually made. he spent the majority of his time commenting about the non-Yuriko arguments because they were a significantly larger part of the game than the posts Yuriko made and Yuriko had done fuck all for the majority of the game.

plus, Yuriko really wasn't a point of contention in that the majority of the game agreed she was scum. on the other hand you had, for instance, Nacho and GB both feeling really really strongly that I was town/scum, respectively. there was no need to be "passionately involved" in pushing Yuriko because hardly anyone saw a need to discuss it anyway; there was, on the other hand, a need to be involved in the non-Yuriko arguments because it was a major point of contention for the majority of the game day.

overall I don't think this is a big deal like you think it is.

Also Jasmine is kkkkkkkk newb maybe? Someone talk to me, I want company until Tel wakes up tonight.

My strong-town list: goldsaucer, pieguy, gb
My nulltown list: bbmolla, quillford (nacho would put Yuriko here too, I think)

YES: Pieguy, you
EH SURE WHY NOT: Saucer, Yuriko(mostly for newbtells and stuff)
NO: demon regfan hydra thing(<3 empire)?

This will prob tighten up over interactions.

bork is showing me up consistently and I feel like reviewing so many games together has given us two a good ebb-flow to it, while Yuriko is only really there for newbtell stuff.

overall, the impression I got from how they played this was that Yuriko was primarily zmuffin's read. there was a huge amount of dissonance in between zmuffin and Nati basically this entire game. all 3 of these posts were Nati's posts and they never really had a chance to sync. I don't think there was any explicit scum motivation here, I think this was just her either having a conflicting read as town or faking a read that went opposite zmuffin's read as scum and playing accordingly.

Yuriko might be town for 102.

What did you like about 102?

-Nati?

while this was a zmuffin post, I don't think this was him trying to "disarm the wagon". he had a scum read on Yuriko at this point and he wasn't sure on my alignment. I think questions like this are fairly typical when you want someone to elaborate further on a read - in his case, I posted something that he disagreed with and he saw it as an opportunity to discern my alignment/test his prior scum read on Yuriko. it's just him asking me about a read he disagreed with.

I also think if he was scum here he was just trying to emulate this as opposed to doing what you're saying here (i.e. he's either town or scum faking it). I don't think it was him searching for an excuse to get off the wagon or anything like that, I think it was more aimed to discern my alignment.

"I will grant" is ten million percent not the verbiage you use when someone has a scumtell on the person YOU'RE VOTING.

this was another Nati post, and as I said before Nati didn't have a scum read on Yuriko - Nati thought she was more likely town. the fact that their slot was voting RBD doesn't change this.

in general, I think there's alternate motivations for most of what you're pointing out here that make as much sense with RBD-town as RBD-scum. I think in particular you're getting confused on the dynamics of their hydra and/or holding them to higher standards than I would with hydra dissonance. either way I don't agree their interactions look like scum/scum.

[pieguyn]

*voting Yuriko

[pieguyn]

I do have a read on MS btw, but I'm going to be mean and not say what it is until he finishes catching up bc I'm not sure about it.

[pieguyn]

yeah, but I'm saying that it makes just as much sense coming from a potential town-Nati who happened to have those reads

and I didn't really think her Yuriko read was unreasonable

I don't deny that hydra dissonance can be OP as shit when you're scum (there was a really old game where Varsoon and I were scum and had "reads" that were completely opposite each other's), but I don't think that's specifically what they were going for (we didn't specifically go for it either, it just wound up happening that way). if they're scum here, I think she was just basing her reads on what she thought she'd have as town. it essentially comes down to if you think she was BS'ing her Yuriko read or not.

[pieguyn]

I'm pretty sure that's not what they were actually doing, though? I legitimately could tell Marquis posts apart from notsci's that game and I for the most part thought all the arguments about them deliberately obfuscating hydra heads were really weak.

I'm not sure what to say beyond that bc, honestly, I _could_ see them using that kind of strategy as scum, but it's not something I'd want to lynch based off of bc 1. I'm really lenient when it comes to "hydra dissonance" and I'd expect if they're scum I'd be able to figure it out from the rest of their play; 2. it's not a strategy I think I'd likely go out of my way to do. essentially, I don't know why they wouldn't be able to have the reads they said they had as town.

[pieguyn]

I do want Pie to explain the turnaround on the Soft read from Post 1251 and Post 1353 to the current vote/case in some more detail specifically what he read as town before to call him "100% town" and "his strongest read" to them being the person he think has fakeabe posts -- if I'm not being clear essentially I want to know why you considered him SUPER town earlier and how those specific posts are now not so town rather than why you think his posts make sense as scum. Also ftr I thought this was worse before than I do now because I thought the S_S push came about after Metal stated a scum-read but had that order wrong.

VOTE: Gentlemen Bastards

this vote happened in response to your 1241, which was exactly when I started thinking there was scum motivation in your push on me. that post in particular pinged bc of how you were calling bork awful _again_, which I didn't like for reasons I've stated already. I thought he was town for it bc I thought he was seeing the exact same thing I was seeing about you in the exact same time - that he would pick up on something like that before I said as much made me feel really good about it. then I thought about it more and 1. stopped worrying about your slot, 2. started thinking that even if this _was_ a scum tell I made a much bigger deal over S-S seeing it than it actually is.

S-S was originally one of my stronger reads bc I had thought he had a lot more unfakeable stuff than he actually did. that's really all there was to it. then I looked at his posts again in-depth and realized I was mistaken.

@ Pie

re; Post 1465 - I don't think Quilford replacing out as scum here is a dick move, it's likely he genuinely doesn't have the time for the game regardless of alignment since it'd mean he wouldn't have time to read and respond to accusations in the detail he'd need to do realistically or fake.

I don't really think scum-Quil would really give that much of a shit about this game in this position. if it was up to me, I would think it's basically impossible to win the game anyway and I wouldn't want to make someone else replace into that situation as scum.

[pieguyn]

I don't see Soft making Post 1273 as scum at all especially when he's gaining no attention as is.

why do you think he wouldn't have made it as scum?

why do you think making that kind of post would _actually_ serve to draw attention onto himself? I don't get that impression at all; it looks like an entirely neutral statement to me.

[pieguyn]

I agree

ho hum hum

no thoughts on the recent S-S discussion?

[pieguyn]

I think SS is town, if it's not Quil I think it's RBD. SS's post seem pretty fucking genuine, but feel free to highlight the points where he is obviously scum.

if you've read my posts and still aren't convinced, I don't really see us coming to an agreement on it

instead I'll ask: why do you disagree with 1412/1416? I maintain that if RBD is scum here they had what was potentially a free mislynch basically lined up already and then chose not to follow through with it for no apparent reason.

[pieguyn]

happy scum day, sangres

Spoiler:

[pieguyn]

[pieguyn]

Why would he continue to push a read made very very early in the game later in the game after a flip? That's silly. Like, you don't think he'd see how suspicious it would be if he was like "GUYS I WAS RIGHT ABOUT YURIKO, REMEMBER HOW I CALLED OUT YURIKO/NACHO AT THE VERY VERY START OF THE GAME? I MUST BE RIGHT VOTE: NACHO."

I think you're underestimating them.

this isn't really what I'm trying to say here

I'm not claiming they'd just randomly go "herp derp, I called Yuriko/Nacho on page whatever" after dropping it the first time. I'm claiming that if they were scum here, the way they played this _on a larger scale_ would be entirely different.

*D2 opens*
zmuffin: doing some rereading
zmuffin: actually, I'm thinking sangres might be scum
zmuffin: *continues questioning sangres* (this is where this hypothetical sequence of events diverged from what actually happened - what we actually saw was him dropping his sangres scum read entirely)
zmuffin: *pulls up said Yuriko/sangres interactions, which may or may not include the ones he pointed out near the start of the game*

^ what is your problem with that sequence of events? I'm not insinuating he'd just randomly bring it up again. I would expect that if he was scum here he'd have to put a hell of a lot more effort into this than just a throwaway comment after not mentioning anything about it at all before, but it's still possible. attempting to link a town player to your scum partner by pointing out associatives in advance is a fairly common scum strategy.

I think you (and MS) are naive if you're working under the assumption they wouldn't be able to BS a scum read on Nacho off of this.

[pieguyn]

bc

1. scum in this position needs as many lynches as possible in order to win. how do you expect him to win this *if* he is scum here? he mislynches Quil-slot, then what? he has no one else he can lynch without being forced to backtrack on his reads and even then he's kind of fucked bc of POE. he'd basically have to take advantage of any opportunity he could to eliminate consensus town reads/keep as many people mislynchable as possible if he was scum here.

2. he's demonstrated he'd be able to do as much. pushing sangres as Yuriko's partner would be the most natural continuation for scum-him here.

[pieguyn]

I'm jumping around a bit but the elephant in the room about soft-spoken is the setup misunderstanding surrounding post 494

I actually feel pretty strongly that he'd be able to fake that. in addition to Reg and Empire both saying he's capable of it, they had mentioned something about arsonists working differently on EM than here. I think he could easily enough have thought something pregame along the lines of "hmm, arsonists know their partner? that's different. if I roll scum here, this would be an interesting idea for how to play this game" and then there it was.

I'd usually think it'd make him more likely town, yeah. just in this case I don't think it was a 100% townslip by any means and I feel I have stronger reasons to read most of the other players as town.

[pieguyn]

I still don't understand why you re townreading muffina. All I can see is that "muffina is town because too scummy to be scum"

817 from D1 is the last time I talked about my zmuffin read in depth. for the most part, my rereads of him haven't given me cause to question it.

[pieguyn]

strongly disagree on 1083 being a town tell. I don't really think it was all that vapid of a post, and either way I think posts like that are really easy to make about partners bc there's no actual push on them in there. it's essentially just "do something".

I don't agree with RBD's Yuriko push looking like a bus either. first off, saying he "never elaborated" on the Yuriko read is incorrect - he did in 116. second, the reasoning there was fine enough that I don't have a problem with it. I could easily enough see him picking up on it as town. I also still don't make anything of the way he voted bc it looked like he was relatively ambivalent on all of his other scum reads, so I don't see a reason he would have had to vote somewhere else as town.

on the other hand I'm willing to admit I may be wrong re: them not pushing sangres, but I still haven't found any of the reasoning for them being scum compelling.

[pieguyn]

also I agree GG is more likely town. I have conflicting feelings on MS' recent posts re: RBD bc basically all of it is wrong, but I liked his early posts and I like hito's posts.

[pieguyn]

him looking like he's "given up" isn't a good reason for scum reading him

him not elaborating on his Yuriko read was incorrect

I didn't see anything else besides that outside of him bussing Yuriko? if there was, link/remind me what it was plz.

[pieguyn]

o ops, misread that part of the post. either way I still don't think it was that unreasonable a read for town-him to have.

[pieguyn]

ugh.

I really, really, really don't think RBD is flipping scum here. I want to *hopefully* sit down and make a final case on why I think they're town, which would likely be later tonight, but I don't really know how convincing it'd be. I'll also say that I probably have more experience with scum-zmuffin than anyone in this player list except potentially ffery (?).

regardless, if we're lynching RBD, I want to be the hammer.

on a completely unrelated note, I had a dream the other night that this game was plurality, RBD was lynched with only 2 votes, flipped scum and the game ended. maybe this is a sign I'm wrong?!?!

[pieguyn]

Pie: Let's take the time to put your thoughts on RBD together. So you figure that one half of RBD locks on to Yuriko instantly, and that their two sentence thought about why YJ is scum was enough for them to feel totally done with pushing the issue (even though their very next paragrpah implies their read is turing back with "I'm ambivalent, want to see non-setup related thoughts.).

yeah ....

what "pushing" were you expecting them to do? it's as I said before: they didn't push Yuriko bc she was doing fuck all and there was nothing to push her over. you're pushing them over this, when in reality Yuriko was absent for basically the entire game. most of their effort was placed elsewhere bc that's what the gamestate was indicative of - there was, proportionally, a lot of more pressing shit to discuss that _wasn't_ Yuriko.

I still don't see this as being a big deal or indicative of them bussing.

Then, the other hydra head doesn't agree with the evaluation of YJ scum and pushes out elsewhere while continually pointing out "I think YJ's stuff are just newbtells." The hydra head who thinks YJ is scum could still put the vote in play elsewhere to appease their buddy, while seeing how YJ plays without the pressure. Or they could post additional justification for a YJ wagon in thread. Or they could sync up with their buddy until their reads are the same. But they do none of these things. Instead, their vote stays right the heck on YJ - who holds to their page 5 vote the entire day when they post 100 times?
.
.
.
And I mean, shit, look at their fucking walls like 316 and 658. When they wrote those walls, their vote was on YJ because "I kinda didn't like that early post, and they haven't caught up since then." What an absurd disconnect. But it makes a lot of sense if you're trying to lay groundwork for mislynches while making sure that YJ doesn't get lynched without you on her wagon.

I think that this is entirely a playstyle issue, and you're making a much bigger deal over it than it actually is.

it is just as likely, for instance, that Nati just didn't give a shit bc she was letting zmuffin control the vote - that kind of mindset (letting one person have control of the vote) I think is fairly common in hydras. I also think that all of zmuffin's scum reads outside of Yuriko were fairly ambivalent - with me you had "don't like how she played this but there's a few posts I really don't think she's capable of", with sangres I don't think he ever really nailed down that read - so I still don't see why him not moving his vote off Yuriko throughout all this means anything.

Scum knows how YJ is flipping.

Which one of these D1 voting histories seems more like a YJ sucmbuddy?

I still don't think this is a correct assessment of what actually happened, bc as I said before it ignores the fact that Yuriko was absent the entire game. but even then, I disagree the way S-S played it wasn't scummy. he poked at a bunch of alternate Yuriko targets, then gave up and voted her right at the end. I don't see how that's intended to be any better than what RBD did.

[pieguyn]

the only argument I could *potentially* see for scum-RBD bussing is that he didn't vote sangres or really push them as hard as I would have expected him to. but I don't really think that's that big of a deal, either.

(this isn't what I was alluding to when I said I wanted to make a town-RBD case, btw, just in case)

[pieguyn]

I'm going to sound like a huge dick saying this _now_, but when I was making this I realized it wasn't anywhere near as strong as I initially thought it was. most of the reasoning I have is essentially that the way he did a lot of things in this game isn't like how I usually expect him to play as scum, but there's nothing that's indicates he's omg-basically-conftown like there is with everyone else.

so, meh. I don't really think I want to pursue this further. I also think I agree with 1662.

[pieguyn]

essentially, starting to agree he might just be scum and I was on the wrong track with S-S this whole time

I kind of want to just go ahead and hammer.

[pieguyn]

god damn it though I _really_ don't see zmuffin's scum game here

I'm gonna take a shower, come back, and then figure out what I want to do about this.

[pieguyn]

on topic: not seeing scumgame =\= town

there's a difference between "not playing to their scum game" and him not only not hitting any of the notes I'd expect from him as scum but also approaching the game in a way that fits well in line with how I'd expect him to approach it as town.

vote: RBD

it is done. I'm going to bed. night

[pieguyn]

also I'm going to straight up admit the only reason I wanted this hammer was bc I've never actually lynched zmuffin-scum even in the one game I was in where he did get lynched. there were like 4 games where I scum read him too late or backed off it, one marathon game where I got lynched, and then that game where I correctly scum read him but wasn't on the wagon. -.-

[pieguyn]

gg

[pieguyn]

this scum team was pretty hilarious

[pieguyn]

deserves a nom?

even if this was how noms work (hint: it's not), this game was relatively straightforward, so no

also I hope to play with you sometime again S-S. same with you Empire.