Micro 677: Double Day Unlimited in Wifom City - Town Win

[GuiltyLion]

/c o n f i r m

hey Titus, your playerlist in the first post isn't quite right

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welp I was town. That was a scum hammer, please lynch Towns Last Hope tomorrow

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It looks like your posting that stuff to just look busy

This accusation is vaguely scummy imo

It's page 2, there's no need for anyone to look busy yet. I doubt a scum!nydushermain would feel compelled to be active at this point, it's not like anyone is gonna scumread someone for not posting when the game just started.

If anything, think it's slightly less likely scum!nydushermain opens the game posting multiple walls of mostly meaningless math. At best, it's something he would do as either alignment, because scum!nydushmerain feels like town!nydushermain would do it.

Also, can someone convince me of a pro-town reason to use multiple votes? More votes on more wagons makes it easier for scum to push mislynches.

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VOTE: Martha Zolanski

Don't at all like the shade throwing/"analysis" at the end there. And the defensive "my vote was rvs" when nobody asked about it

you beat me to it

VOTE: Martha Zolanski

[GuiltyLion]

Need more opinions from the the people have spoken less.

@Alisae: I think we meant the same thing in different terms.

Vote: GuiltyLion

can you remind me why you think I'm scum again

[GuiltyLion]

I feel very uneasy for NM - you can understand, right?

also I don't really like the way this question is directed - instead of pushing on Tier's motives, you're asking him to consider your own. why?

[GuiltyLion]

I feel very uneasy for NM - you can understand, right?

also I don't really like the way this question is directed - instead of pushing on Tier's motives, you're asking him to consider your own. why?

To...make him consider the situation?

Why do I need to push on Tier's motives? I'm very confused on what this post implies.

I expect you to scumhunt, and that question doesn't look like you're doing it. What were you hoping to gain from that question?

Need more opinions from the the people have spoken less.

@Alisae: I think we meant the same thing in different terms.

Vote: GuiltyLion

can you remind me why you think I'm scum again

49

This isn't an answer. Why is 49 a scummy post?

[GuiltyLion]

I expect you to scumhunt, and that question doesn't look like you're doing it. What were you hoping to gain from that question?

Sorry I'm not meeting your standards but I reasoned my own. I'm not continuing this line of questioning further if you're just going to set standards for me.

So you can't give a good reason for why you posted what you posted?

This isn't an answer. Why is 49 a scummy post?

Honestly Hiraki the way I see it, I think the person who tries to justify it the most is probably scum since I think scum like to see who has a justified vote in this case.

We agreed in different manners.

I don't follow. Alisae is talking about people who like to justify their votes. I didn't make a vote. So what exactly is your accusation, that I "over justified" my non-vote? Why do you think 49 reads like scum over-explaining a read rather than town explaining their thought process?

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I didn't vote because I didn't want an early L-1, tbh. That's why I asked about a pro-town reason to use multiple votes instead, because people will just throw them around in a game like this. and surprise surprise, Not_Mafia quickhammered like he always does

regardless, I think this latest response is actually somewhat townish, so I'll let you go for now

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in a game where everyone can vote as many people as they want

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seriously, the voting mechanics in this game hugely favor scum and so I'm going to be very cautious of that. It'd be anti-town and irresponsible not to

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nydush the thing is Not_Mafia often plays like this, as town or scum. He's hilarious and I enjoy playing with him so I say this with love but you're going to have a hard time if you expect to determine his alignment by the amount of useful things he says.

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Well, I think that fake hammer isn't scummy af since I think some people use that as a RT.

why did you say "isn't scummy af"? Do you mean it's only slightly scummy, or not scummy at all?

might be reaching here but this phrasing reads to me like it was retroactively edited which is more likely to come from scum imo. I don't think someone typing out their thoughts organically would write a sentence like this on first attempt. "isn't [x] af" is just a really awkward phrase

also do you have any more thoughts about the votes on you or anything at all besides a null read on N_M

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basically i think it's an attempt to distract from a double scum wagon.

if there were two scum on the wagon, how does one of them doing a fake hammer distract from that?

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Let's all be nice and vote the clowm that lolhammered page 3.

and Tier why do you believe that only scum!N_M would do this? He's lolhammered as town on pg 2 before.

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Well, I think that fake hammer isn't scummy af since I think some people use that as a RT.

why did you say "isn't scummy af"? Do you mean it's only slightly scummy, or not scummy at all?

might be reaching here but this phrasing reads to me like it was retroactively edited which is more likely to come from scum imo. I don't think someone typing out their thoughts organically would write a sentence like this on first attempt. "isn't [x] af" is just a really awkward phrase

actually ignore this first question, when I reread your ISO I guess it makes a little bit more sense in context because previously you were pushing on TLH

"isn't scummy af" is still weird on like a gut level though

also do you have any more thoughts about the votes on you or anything at all besides a null read on N_M

I do still want this answered

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Also GL, what do you think of me and nyd? Just wanted to ask.

I'm not seeing any reason to townread you

nyd I think is town

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Well, I think that fake hammer isn't scummy af since I think some people use that as a RT.

why did you say "isn't scummy af"? Do you mean it's only slightly scummy, or not scummy at all?

might be reaching here but this phrasing reads to me like it was retroactively edited which is more likely to come from scum imo. I don't think someone typing out their thoughts organically would write a sentence like this on first attempt. "isn't [x] af" is just a really awkward phrase

I meant on that "scummy af" is that it's not that too scummy. Don't you use some internet slang?

What is the point of the second question here? Of course I use internet slang. It's not the "af" that's the problem, it's the "isn't" in front of it. You're weakening a description of how scummy you think it is, it doesn't feel like a natural thought process.

also do you have any more thoughts about the votes on you or anything at all besides a null read on N_M

My thoughts about the votes on me is that they're voting for the wrong person. I'm still working out my reads though.

this feels manufactured too, "working out" your reads? How are you doing that? Just posting "this game is slow" isn't going to do anything to help solve it.

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Shouldn't you be asking what the town motive is for fake hammering on a hammer?

I think we just disagree that TLH knew they were already hammered when they did the fake hammer. I could see them knowing that their vote was already on Alisae but not realizing that Alisae was at L-0 instead of L-1.

[GuiltyLion]

{nyd, lycan}
{Hiraki, TLH}
{N_M, Tier}
{Martha}

is where I am at

[GuiltyLion]

{nyd, lycan}
{Hiraki, TLH}
{N_M, Tier}
{Martha}

is where I am at

How did you come up with this?

How did that top tier of townread form

I wouldn't say I "came up" with it, it's just where my head is at the moment

I thought nyd and lycan had sincere looking pushes on N_M and TLH respectively, neither of their cases/votes appeared to have ulterior motive or be coming from a place of knowledge. Mostly just a gut feel but I don't get a disingenuous vibe from either of them currently

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Lycan I don't understand anything about the fake hammer being scummy. It would not draw attention away from anything since we knew hammer was there earlier. It is not alignment-indicative at all. What else do you find readable in this game?

I don't like martha or tlh but I really want to lynch nm today and I don't understand all the resistance to his wagon. He's going to be lynched either way tomorrow. He's just lynchbait being kept alive to lylo for scum if town but also pretty likely scum.

I don't understand why a fake hammer would be scummy either, that's why I asked him about it, but I felt like everything in 211 was more of a town-response than a scum-response. Like he doesn't seem at all self conscious about the fact that his argument doesn't really make that much sense.

There's not much readable in this game because people aren't posting things worth reading. I want to say Hiraki is top tier town because I vibe with 230 and I think scum!Hiraki could have easily just kept tunneling me in our 1v1, but I do still kinda want more from him. I'm mostly just resisting the N_M wagon for the sake of resisting it so that scum have to justify it harder in case it is a mislynch

[GuiltyLion]

I think Not_mafia is a better lynch

VOTE: Not_Mafia

If people wants this then I'm fine with it

see sheepy votes like this are why it's worth resisting a N_M lynch

and why did you go from wanting an N_M lynch to casual indifference

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Hiraki why is Martha a strong TR for you

Lycan I just don't think TLH is scum, they're doing the most to try to sort this game at the moment. I'd rather see you drop the hammer argument I don't think it's indicative

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I want to say that nydusher coasting this out feels like scum play

I've seen a couple times he's visited the site and not posted, so I'm starting to feel this as well

with multiple players prodging and few making serious reads/pushes this game feels like it's heading for a loss

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if Martha is town I'd say Hiraki is much more likely to be scum, I can't really grok why he's townreading her slot and his scumreads are my townreads

[GuiltyLion]

if Martha is town I'd say Hiraki is much more likely to be scum, I can't really grok why he's townreading her slot and his scumreads are my townreads

So you're saying that Hiraki is scum because your reads are opposite than him?

No, I'm saying he

could be

scum because my reads are opposite than him. and I'm also saying his townread on you looks like a possible white knight. I play this game by townblocking, and if someone is pushing lynches that I don't like and making reads I can't understand then I believe they're more likely to have ulterior motives

[GuiltyLion]

Hiraki why is Martha a strong TR for you

Lycan I just don't think TLH is scum, they're doing the most to try to sort this game at the moment. I'd rather see you drop the hammer argument I don't think it's indicative

She presents good arguments and I have no reason to SR at the moment.

which arguments has she presented and why are they "good"?

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@Lycan

Here's a post from SSBM where I mention my D1 townblocing approach (also everyone should read that game, I'm super proud of my play in that one)

Here I explicitly say "Even just agreeing on most reads is a useful way to start townbloc-ing.", which kinda ties to my point about having wildly different reads being suspicious

Here I break down who is in my D1 townbloc in another game

I found these by just searching my posts for "townbloc".

it's not that I really actively attempt to do it with other players, it's more like I just form it in my head and then lynch outside of that.

(also that Newbie with Ircher was a fun game, I was a scum replacement and the scumteam had already distanced so effectively that I basically just coasted off of my partners flip and my slot's previous towncred for an easy win)

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GL can you please review Martha? I feel her posts are extremely transparent although they sometimes come off a little weird.

Yeah, I have been thinking about this after Hiraki's 293 and I can see it, but I still wish she'd do more? like it's frustrating that she complained about activity and how boring the game is but isn't making an effort to get people to do anything, but in the end that's not really alignment-indicative so much as it is quality-of-play-indicative

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UNVOTE: Martha

not sure what the vote count is but I can do this for now, my immediate take here is that I don't like how nyd is suddenly recycling stale points about Martha

nyd I want you to talk about Tier's most recent push on you, do you think it's scum motivated and why or why not?

[GuiltyLion]

Also, I'm back to being certain that NM is scum. I also think that hiraki is townie, but I'm feeling uneasy with how hiraki defends NM via chainsaw (proper use of terminology?).

I'm caught up and I still think that TS is scummy. I think that what he is pushing NM on is NAI and calling him a backup lynch after saying

VOTE: Martha Zolanski

Don't at all like the shade throwing/"analysis" at the end there. And the defensive "my vote was rvs" when nobody asked about it

agreed though but you don't think nm is a scummy scumfuck?

is shady as fuck. He should also know how I play scum since we both lived until the end in the game where I actually was scum. This is like a total 180 (I think).

Why is it shady for Tier to push aggressively on N_M and then switch focus here? Town do that all the time

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I kinda like these nydush posts, not sure that scum!nydush could manufacture responses to my questions so quickly

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Not_Mafia I feel like this game is missing the part of your townplay where you actually scumread someone

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Then are you saying you're just voting people for the hell of it?

He didn't actually say that, though

also aren't you assuming that he's town by asking this question?

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Then are you saying you're just voting people for the hell of it?

yeah the more I think about it the more I think this might be a slip. If town!nyd legitimately thought N_M was scum, his assumption would be that N_M's votes are meant to push mislynches. By assuming that N_M has no reason whatsoever for his votes, you're also assuming that he's part of the uninformed majority.

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the point is that if you truly believed that he is "most likely scum", then your default assumption would not be that he is "voting people for the hell of it".

@Titus

gimme a VC

[GuiltyLion]

1) You're assuming the votes in 168 have no reason whatsoever

2) I don't think scum

can

just "vote for the hell of it". They already know who is scum and who is not. Their wincon is to stay alive and lynch enough people outside of their faction to achieve majority. Therefore, if you believe that someone is scum, that belief should be accompanied by another logically-consequent belief that they want to steer lynches towards people who are not on their team. But you implicitly assumed that N_M legitimately had no reason to vote the way he did at all, which reads to me like you might already know that he is uninformed about people's alignments.

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N_M but not as a matter of instinct in the way that I'm talking about though!

My point is that nydush's instinct was to imply that N_M had no reason for his votes. My argument is that a natural town thought process would look like this:

axiom: "If someone is scum, then they are voting from a place of knowledge" (A->B)
belief: "X is scum" (A)
Therefore,
conclusion: "Therefore X must be voting from a place of knowledge" (B)

and I don't see that thought process in his post. Townies don't have to actively work through the logic or be convinced to get to B, they just land there naturally because that's how a rational brain works. But nydush is completely missing B when he questions "are you voting for the hell of it?". Either he was downplaying how much he actually thinks N_M is scum, or nydush never believed N_M was scum to begin with.

if that axiom is not like universally shared among all players then we can debate that, but to me this makes sense.

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N_M but not as a matter of instinct in the way that I'm talking about though!

My point is that nydush's instinct was to imply that N_M had no reason for his votes. My argument is that a natural town thought process would look like this:

axiom: "If someone is scum, then they are voting from a place of knowledge" (A->B)
belief: "X is scum" (A)
Therefore,
conclusion: "Therefore X must be voting from a place of knowledge" (B)

and I don't see that thought process in his post. Townies don't have to actively work through the logic or be convinced to get to B, they just land there naturally because that's how a rational brain works. But nydush is completely missing B when he questions "are you voting for the hell of it?". Either he was downplaying how much he actually thinks N_M is scum, or nydush never believed N_M was scum to begin with.

if that axiom is not like universally shared among all players then we can debate that, but to me this makes sense.

I can see where you're going with this but trust me when I tell you, I'm town and whatever you're reading into is wrong.

I'm kinda thinking this feels genuine

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honestly I'd just sheep TLH at this point, I'm struggling with too many townreads

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I am aware of deadline and will be active throughout the day. I think N_M may be my preferred lynch after all but it's less of a bona-fide scumread and more of a default lynch which is annoying

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I think I could still do nydush but I'd like others to weigh in on my back and forth with him

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The reason he makes me hesitant is because he seems genuine in his conviction of his own town alignment, but some people are pretty good at faking that

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nah okay nydush is town

it's not posturing, I legitimately don't feel certain about what I want to do today

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I think that his hesitation could be scum not wanting to be on a town lynch at the end of day.

like trust me on this, when I am scum I have no reservations about being on town lynches

I'm more likely to dodge shaky wagons as town

[GuiltyLion]

s e l f m e t a

anyway yeah I can sheep you here
VOTE: TierShift

I get the vibe that he's been buddying me, especially since he did it pretty effectively in Hot Fuzz

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also the thing with Martha is I feel like she's town because so many people are (somewhat inexplicably) townreading her, which usually means there's a scum who is trying to pocket the mislynch for later or not get caught making a bad push. I think I saw someone refer to it one time as "town by townspew"

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If you think that she's town because people are townreading her, which means that there's a scum trying to pocket the mislynch for later, why did you feel the need to unvote right when I voted for her?

because I didn't like your vote and I also had both Hiraki and Tier telling me that they thought she was town, and they're the two candidates for the scum-townreading-a-mislynchable-town thing that I'm talking about.

I questioned Hiraki about his townread in 275 and 288 and made this point about how I didn't like his townread in 277.

and then if you look at my post 311 you can see I'm having doubts about a Martha lynch and then you came in immediately after with 312 which you should have posted probably 100 posts earlier, and so I just pulled the trigger on the unvote in 313 right after that. It all happened in the span of 5 minutes.

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I'm still down for N_M too

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intent to hammer Not_Mafia in 4 hours

get your last thoughts in now

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so I like {nydush, Hiraki, TLH} for town. Martha is due for two prods or probably just replacement, if that slot is town and can start town telling then I think we've got this won with lynches between {N_M, Tier, Lycan} and a final lynch to spare assuming we hit scum in one of those three.

I am kinda hoping TLH can come in here and give some last thoughts before lynch/threadlock. I'm with nydush in that I would prefer a TierShift lynch at the moment but he's currently at L-2.

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I think Lycan/Tier interactions are strange, there was really no reason for Tier to unvote Lycan there and Lycan hasn't offered any thoughts whatsoever on Tier. At least one of them is almost definitely scum, wouldn't be surprised if they're a team

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bueller? bueller?

VOTE: Not_Mafia

realistically we'll probably have a long twilight before Titus locks the thread anyway

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I don't see how someone can look at nydush's post today and find those scummy, so you're gonna have to sell me on that one

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Can we all agree that if we hit scum on lynch # 1 today that we go to sleep?

yes

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VOTE: Lycan

Tier are you still down to lynch this today

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I also think there's not much to be gained from pressing Tier right now

what, why? How is there not something to be gained from pressing people?

I'm gonna do some rereading, there's definitely one if not both scum in this Hiraki/Tier/Lycan group but the picture doesn't feel very clear to me right now and individually I could see each of them being town

[GuiltyLion]

Uhh tell me more about these connections

This is aimed at me, right? I just feel there's no clear thread vibe on which way people want to lynch yet which is usually a sign that scum is sitting back. Hiraki and Lycan are crossvoting, but I don't feel like I have a particularly strong sense from either of them as to why they believe the other one to be scum, and then Tier is kinda in the periphery where nydush and I have expressed some interest in lynching but he feels like he's being ignored by Hiraki/Lycan. Especially Lycan, his ISO is completely lacking in any sort of Tier interaction, which could be a false S-T associative

[GuiltyLion]

idk Hiraki is not really interacting with or talking about Tier either. I'd like to know how Tier feels about this

[GuiltyLion]

idk Hiraki is not really interacting with or talking about Tier either.

What is there to talk about?

well I mean if you think he's town I would expect you to be like working with him to try to build consensus on your scum/townreads, and if you think he's scum I would expect you to be pushing him, and if you don't know his alignment I'd expect you to be trying to sort him in some fashion. It's just weird that this entire game you:

1. asked him about NM in 138
2. called him null in 239 (plus had that weird line about "feel free to lynch me for association")
3. then said him v nydush was TvT in 365

and that's about the extent to which you've interacted with his slot.

[GuiltyLion]

When I play scum I will often have one mislynchable townie that I just pretty much completely ignore or do the bare minimum of interacting with, with the hope that if I get flipped my buddy(ies) can push that townie on associatives, and I'm wondering if that could be happening here with Tier to some degree

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And again - why would I need to do more now?

the problem is that you don't seem to

want

to do more. like I don't feel like you're trying to game-solve, and then you keep taking up this attitude where it's not your job to show me. If you're town then this is a miscommunication between us that could put the result of the game at risk, so I don't understand why it feels like things have to be dragged out of you

I'm feeling Tier is vibing more town with his latest few posts. nydush/TLH what are your thoughts about Lycan?

[GuiltyLion]

I'm still here, still thinking about this game sometimes

I have a hard time believing that Lycan is genuinely accusing Hiraki is coasting when his own posting on D2 has been naked votes and then very simplistic explanations of them

[GuiltyLion]

I feel town vibes coming from Hiraki's most recent posting, I think. And I'm kinda revisiting my TR on TLH

That looks like hammer - want to point out that lycan said I never answered a question then ignored me asking what question twice lol

I dual-ISO'd you and Lycan because this "answer the question" "what question" nonsense seems a little weird, and I have to ask you here - why didn't you just re-ISO and figure out what the question was yourself when Lycan first said "TLH hasn't answered my question"? Like this feels like throwing shade for the sake of throwing shade.

Similar issue with this post:

Can you clarify why? Your ISO indicates that you have more of a SR on TLH.

So you haven't read the game, then

reminds me a lot of this post that scum!Dunn made in a Newbie we played together

It wasn't his first post. I quoted him while voting you. You've basically admitted to not having read what I was typing

where you're pointing out these things that are allegedly scum indicative (but not really), and your posts are missing a sense of

belief

in the mud you're throwing.

[GuiltyLion]

reminds me a lot of this post that scum!Dunn made in a Newbie we played together

Uh, I'm not controlling other people to make them not read the game when I'm scum if that's what you're trying to piece together. If somebody hasn't read the game I'll call them out on it, yes.

why didn't you just re-ISO and figure out what the question was yourself when Lycan first said "TLH hasn't answered my question"?

And why didn't you do it for me? I didn't want to/couldn't understand

Do you disagree that it looks like he hasn't read the game?

Seriously GL how about you go into more detail on how 242 and 136 in that other game link together as something scummy?

Response to all three of these:

the thing is, not reading the game isn't inherently scummy, people miss things. It's also funny that you say you didn't want to figure out Lycan's question when that would require you to

read the game

so when you snark at Hiraki like he could be scum for not reading the game, it reminded me strongly of how you did the same thing as scum in that other game, where it's presenting something that could possibly look scummy -on the surface- but isn't at all really, a way to coast and look involved without having to actually sort. I have come around to thinking Hiraki is town. So your pushing on him looks bad to me, especially when you do it over things that I

know

you know aren't alignment indicative.

all that said I'd still like to lynch Lycan first and foremost

[GuiltyLion]

I think that's an interesting statement because with Lycan, you said that you don't think he genuinely believes in his Hiraki push which is why he's scum (maybe this is what you're saying? I'm running on low sleep) but with TLH, you say you KNOW for a fact that they are pushing Hiraki for something that town!TLH would know isn't alignment indicative. You're putting a feeling/tone read to call Lycan scum higher than a logic based scum read on TLH? I feel like you should have things flipped with TLH being scummier than Lycan for pushing on Hiraki if the reasons you've stated are indeed the reasons for scumreading Lycan. That being said, little sleep so I could've misinterpreted something or misread somewhere.

I see what you're saying here but I think invented scumreads are more likely to have no real belief behind them than a logical belief that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Sometimes town might do something TLH is doing and push something NAI because they think it applies in this scenario or something, but town rarely (if ever) has a late game scumread that's totally surface level and barely explained.

TLH's response hasn't been so great though.

Also that Tier replace out makes him lock-town IMO. No reason a scum!Tier would feel the need to replace, I think.

[GuiltyLion]

@Mod can we get a deadline pause while we wait for a Tier replacement

Lycan I'd lynch TLH if you flip town, I think

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Michael what are your thoughts on Lycan, you don't really talk about him at all in any of your catchup posts

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alright well 13 hours left I'm gonna hammer TLH in about 8 or 9 of them

intent to hammer TLH

I'm pretty sure Hiraki is right that it's TLH/Lycan

[GuiltyLion]

FUCK I ALMOST FORGOT

VOTE: TownsLastHope

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still made it in time thank god

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cool so with 5 alive it's correct to no lynch now and we get 2 lynches tomorrow (4 alive lynch -> 3 alive lynch)

pretty sure lynching Lycan will win it but I'll review over night I guess

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VOTE: Lycanfire

I really don't think scum!TierShift paired with scum!TLH would make post 472 and then replace out. Lynching Lycan should end it. All of the "why did you fake hammer" push seemed bizarre to begin with, makes sense as scum-scum distancing.

[GuiltyLion]

hey gg all! Thanks for modding Titus

I think Hiraki carried the game on D2 when he started putting out major townvibes and called out the scumteam. Scum kinda didn't really fight back too hard after that either :/