Micro 715: Friendly Neighbor 6 (Game Over)

[Something_Smart]

Hi there.

[Something_Smart]

17-20 is a really weird turnaround.

Also Mario's last post is rather fence-sitty.

[Something_Smart]

He's not giving any strong opinions.

[Something_Smart]

But he's not giving a reason not to have a strong opinion either; he's just making no effort to read into it.

[Something_Smart]

Why not?

[Something_Smart]

Gamma is the kind of person to have issues thinking all the kinks out of a big play, so I wouldn't expect him to lock into a Pr claim and try to wiggle through why he survived the night.

If he claims PR as scum he almost always gets counterclaimed anyway.

[Something_Smart]

Raya is probtown.
Alchemist's tone feels a bit manufactured.

[Something_Smart]

Raya is probtown.
Alchemist's tone feels a bit manufactured.

Why is that?

I like both parts of 95, she seems to be thinking critically about Gamma's claim and it doesn't feel like she's pushing an agenda.

Regarding Alchemist, it's gut based off of how formal his tone feels.

[Something_Smart]

Voting for the person they see as the scummiest

I lol'd.

[Something_Smart]

^ I think this is scumposting.

It's actually phoneposting coming from someone who much prefers to post on a computer.

And I'm surprised nobody else mentioned 17 and 20.

SCUMREADING SOMEONE WHO IS SCUMREADING YOU IS

NOT

OMGUS.

It can be. Depends if you're scumreading someone in part because they're scumreading you. (Also I'm not scumreading you)

[Something_Smart]

also Danyboy can you clarify whether you meant voting without

having

reasons or voting without

stating

reasons?

[Something_Smart]

Gamma goes from talking seriously about improving his town performance to being completely sarcastic and uninhibited, and it makes 20 feel not real. (Like he's trying to fake town emotion)

[Something_Smart]

I didn't say I

wanted to improve

, I said I was waiting until I had

a good town game

to do something. I feel that my current townplay is actually not half bad.

Detail irrelevant to my point. Can you talk a bit about your train of thought in those two posts?

[Something_Smart]

Without stating. It's in towns best interest to explain your reasoning thats why I think it's scummy.

Not in town's best interest does not equal scummy.

Not to mention that you turned around and gave a reason in 173 why withholding reasons might be in town's interest.

[Something_Smart]

What conclusions do you expect? At this point, anyone could be Town or scum. I have weak reads, but not much more. What I choose to analyse is arbitrary because I am rather busy and cannot analyse every post in depth.

Currently, you and Flubbernugget are weak scum reads while Gamma and Raya are weak Town. Most others are near nullish.

like, most of your posts are long and analyzing, but even though I see analysis, I don't see how it affects your reads. If you could post something like "you and Flubbernugget are weak scum reads while Gamma and Raya are weak Town. Most others are near nullish.", I think that would help with trying to read you.
(Also, I'm pretty much confirmed town. )

Raya are weak Town. Most others are near nullish.

Can you explain your Raya read? I have her as leaning Town, but one reason I had I realized was NAI and the other reason may be as well. I'd like to know if you're seeing something more substantial from her.

I did a double take, congrats, well played.

And mfw BTD6 has a weak scumread on the claimed FN

(inb4 it's JK setup and Mario is scum gambiting hard)

[Something_Smart]

like, most of your posts are long and analyzing, but even though I see analysis, I don't see how it affects your reads. If you could post something like "you and Flubbernugget are weak scum reads while Gamma and Raya are weak Town. Most others are near nullish.", I think that would help with trying to read you.
(Also, I'm pretty much confirmed town. )

I was referring to your play rather than your claim.

You are near-confTown from your claim, but I got a weak scumread from your actual play.

With this post you receive the rare double-IGMEOU

[Something_Smart]

like, most of your posts are long and analyzing, but even though I see analysis, I don't see how it affects your reads. If you could post something like "you and Flubbernugget are weak scum reads while Gamma and Raya are weak Town. Most others are near nullish.", I think that would help with trying to read you.
(Also, I'm pretty much confirmed town. )

I was referring to your play rather than your claim.

You are near-confTown from your claim, but I got a weak scumread from your actual play.

With this post you receive the rare double-IGMEOU

Are you referring to BTD6 or MM4 with this post? (Or both?)

BTD6

[Something_Smart]

-snip-

I did a double take, congrats, well played.

And mfw BTD6 has a weak scumread on the claimed FN

(inb4 it's JK setup and Mario is scum gambiting hard)

Why are you both shunning and entertaining BTD's scum read?

The last line was a joke. Do you realize how idiotic that would be for scum?

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Gamma
I honestly don't know where to start here so I'll start on the Mario wagon.

[Something_Smart]

Gamma was on the Mario wagon.

[Something_Smart]

150
It was Gamma and Dany, and Dany gets a pass for now for his strange unvote.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Gamma
I honestly don't know where to start here so I'll start on the Mario wagon.

Looking back through Something Smart's posts I don't think this is genuine. He's been pointing out things he finds suspicious in his earlier posts, so I don't see how he could come in with no idea of where to start. Especially when you consider that his vote went on someone he already voiced suspicion on, it seems more like he wanted to place a vote with the safe and easy reason that the person was on the claimed Friendly Neighbor's wagon.

Townies do suspicious things all the time (and my vote is on one of the players I pointed out as being suspicious so I don't know what you expected).

Speaking of suspicious, I see you suspecting me using the safe and easy reason of suspecting me for using the safe and easy reason of having voted the claimed FN to suspect Gamma. (That was supposed to sound clever but instead it just sounds convoluted.)

Dany, who's scum?

I am awaiting the answer to this question. People who are not iDanyBoy may also answer it.

Something_Smart his vote seems random and it doesn't feel like his looking for scum

On the contrary I'm looking for scum because I don't think I've found scum yet.

Turning this question around, what is the scum motivation behind such a vote?

[Something_Smart]

and my vote is on one of the players I pointed out as being suspicious

I know that and mentioned as much. The fact that you come in and act like you have no clue where to start when you had several suspicions to work with is what pings me, and the suspicion is strengthened by you voting Gamma with your "no idea where to start" thing when you had established suspicions of them. If you already had those to work then it tells me you were lying about not knowing where to start to try to keep your hands clean.

Townies do suspicious things all the time

Your point being?

My point is that I'm not going to call someone scum just for doing a few things that seem suspicious. (I need something more concrete which I haven't found this game yet.) And if I vote someone just for being suspicious, then I know from experience that that will inevitably lead to confbias.

I'd like to not be voting now but I felt like not enough was happening and when that's the case more vote changes is often a solution to that.

I find S_S suspicious rn

Why?

VOTE: Gamma
I honestly don't know where to start here so I'll start on the Mario wagon.

Looking back through Something Smart's posts I don't think this is genuine. He's been pointing out things he finds suspicious in his earlier posts, so I don't see how he could come in with no idea of where to start. Especially when you consider that his vote went on someone he already voiced suspicion on, it seems more like he wanted to place a vote with the safe and easy reason that the person was on the claimed Friendly Neighbor's wagon.

Townies do suspicious things all the time (and my vote is on one of the players I pointed out as being suspicious so I don't know what you expected).

Speaking of suspicious, I see you suspecting me using the safe and easy reason of suspecting me for using the safe and easy reason of having voted the claimed FN to suspect Gamma. (That was supposed to sound clever but instead it just sounds convoluted.)

Dany, who's scum?

I am awaiting the answer to this question. People who are not iDanyBoy may also answer it.

Something_Smart his vote seems random and it doesn't feel like his looking for scum

On the contrary I'm looking for scum because I don't think I've found scum yet.

Turning this question around, what is the scum motivation behind such a vote?

Your reasoning doesn't seem to work. Why would scum have more of a motivation to vote someone who later happened to be the FN? If someone was wrong on one vote that doesn't make them more likely to be scum by any more than a negligible amount.

Because Mario seemed like an easy lynch and easy lynches that are town are prime places for scum to vote, especially when the overall state of the game is slow.

You do have some other reasoning on Gamma though.

Gamma goes from talking seriously about improving his town performance to being completely sarcastic and uninhibited, and it makes 20 feel not real. (Like he's trying to fake town emotion)

I didn't say I

wanted to improve

, I said I was waiting until I had

a good town game

to do something. I feel that my current townplay is actually not half bad.

Detail irrelevant to my point. Can you talk a bit about your train of thought in those two posts?

Exactly how was Gamma's posting sarcastic and uninhibited? It seemed to be mostly a series of genuine questions (plus, at one point, talking about the difference between reasoning and justification).

The post that I described as sarcastic and uninhibited was 20:

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE LET'S GET QUICKLYNCHED IN A MICRO AGAIN

Which feels like he might be trying to fake a town response to an early wagon.

[Something_Smart]

My point is that I'm not going to call someone scum just for doing a few things that seem suspicious. (I need something more concrete which I haven't found this game yet.) And if I vote someone just for being suspicious, then I know from experience that that will inevitably lead to confbias.

I'd like to not be voting now but I felt like not enough was happening and when that's the case more vote changes is often a solution to that.

So when the fuck do you plan on calling people scum? Do you just not scumhunt? And again, this still doesn't explain how someone with suspicions on players can claim they have no idea where to start when placing their vote.

If you plan on calling people scum then you're doing it wrong. (Or you're scum.) Just because it's been 10 days doesn't make the 13 pages of mostly pointless bickering this game is any easier to read and it doesn't mean everyone has a duty to have a strong scumread.

That said, the last paragraph of this post sets off alarm bells for me:

I want this more than Flubber now, though I could switch back to flubber. Flubber does seem like he's trying to get his last thoughts out which is Towny, but I'm still wary because after I said accepting the lynch is more likely to come from Town with Gamma, I'm not going to say it's impossible scum could be trying to emulate that behavior.

First sentence feels like scum keeping options open rather than town having organic read changes. Second sentence is incredibly shallow and feels very logical and robotic for somebody supposedly afraid of being pocketed.
VOTE: Alchemist

[Something_Smart]

That came out wrong rofl.

I think you know what I meant though: you shouldn't just decide that "I should have some scumreads of X strength now" and then have them.

[Something_Smart]

That came out wrong rofl.

I think you know what I meant though: you shouldn't just decide that "I should have some scumreads of X strength now" and then have them.

I didn't know what you meant. I don't think any other player would come up and say "Yeah I have these suspicions, but I'm going to ignore them because voting one of 2 people on a wagon is a better way of finding scum than following my suspicions."

It's not ignoring them, it's just like, if all you have are vague suspicions, they're more likely noise than signal. And the vote on Gamma was a vote to get the game moving (and possibly get reactions) rather than an actual vote based on a scumread.

And now I'm liking your responses so I feel like this one might be noise too

[Something_Smart]

What it is is I can't lock onto any scumreads and I feel useless.

[Something_Smart]

ok I'm feeling more town on Alchemist and I don't like to sheep but I'm pretty sure this is like the perfect time to sheep so
VOTE: iDanyBoy

[Something_Smart]

Don't know where people got the idea that I'm voting Dany for sheeping?

[Something_Smart]

Also can we take a moment to appreciate the ridiculous speed of that wagon.

[Something_Smart]

Because I trust Mario more than I trust myself.

[Something_Smart]

Have you been reading? I'm having a hard time forming scumreads this game.

I fully understand what you're saying in that post and I do have some reads as well as a few other things to say when I'm not on mobile, but nothing in that post sounds like you think I'm scum. It sounds like you think I'm town not playing as well as I could, which is probably true, but then why are you voting me?

[Something_Smart]

Why are you asking a question that's already been asked and answered MULTIPLE TIMES?

And by the way, Mario being conftown does make his reads more likely to be right than any other player's, because it eliminates the chance that he's scum pushing a mislynch. And they're more likely to be right than mine for reasons that should be obvious if you read the freaking thread.

[Something_Smart]

You want me to think for myself? Fine.
VOTE: BTD6_maker
Derides me for sheeping while in the same post copying reasoning that has been used by multiple other people to vote me.

Furthermore, I'm seeing a pattern. People are voting me because they don't like how I'm playing. They're saying things like "you should be acting on your own reads" and "why are you following Mario just because he's conftown" which are addressing me as if I am town playing suboptimally. Which I am, but I don't care because in the past I have had a problem with tunneling in on small things and disrupting the game.

So I'm trying to avoid that by not voting things that are, like I said, more likely noise than signal. And the rate of scum lynches day 1, especially where scum doesn't bus, should corroborate this.

Back to the point at hand, people are voting me for what they think would be bad play coming from town, not what they think would come from scum. I specifically mentioned that what I did I don't like to do in most scenarios but this one is extenuating circumstances. The exception to that is Alchemist and that's one of the reasons I'm townreading him.

[Something_Smart]

And to Dany who thinks I'm changing my vote too much: that's not scummy. What's scummy is if your vote doesn't connect properly to your reasoning, or if your read progression is stiff and awkward rather than organic. So if you vote a bunch of people while appearing to keep the same reads and/or maintaining suspicion on one person, THAT's scummy. But if your reads are changing rapidly then your vote should too.

[Something_Smart]

You can call me whatever you want as long as you don't let me get mislynched for bullshit reasons.

[Something_Smart]

"Why are you sheeping when you have reads of your own?"
why are you asking questions based on unoriginal ideas

My ideas were not unoriginal. They were independent.

Did you know that other people had said the same thing when you posted that?

[Something_Smart]

BTD doesn't feel like scum rn

Why?

"Why are you sheeping when you have reads of your own?"
why are you asking questions based on unoriginal ideas

My ideas were not unoriginal. They were independent.

Did you know that other people had said the same thing when you posted that?

I was aware that other people had made the argument. That does not make a difference.

Were you aware that I had answered the question you were asking several times already?

My point is that I'm not going to call someone scum just for doing a few things that seem suspicious. (I need something more concrete which I haven't found this game yet.) And if I vote someone just for being suspicious, then I know from experience that that will inevitably lead to confbias.

If you plan on calling people scum then you're doing it wrong. (Or you're scum.) Just because it's been 10 days doesn't make the 13 pages of mostly pointless bickering this game is any easier to read and it doesn't mean everyone has a duty to have a strong scumread.

That came out wrong rofl.

I think you know what I meant though: you shouldn't just decide that "I should have some scumreads of X strength now" and then have them.

I didn't know what you meant. I don't think any other player would come up and say "Yeah I have these suspicions, but I'm going to ignore them because voting one of 2 people on a wagon is a better way of finding scum than following my suspicions."

It's not ignoring them, it's just like, if all you have are vague suspicions, they're more likely noise than signal. And the vote on Gamma was a vote to get the game moving (and possibly get reactions) rather than an actual vote based on a scumread.

And now I'm liking your responses so I feel like this one might be noise too

Because I trust Mario more than I trust myself.

Have you been reading? I'm having a hard time forming scumreads this game.

[Something_Smart]

guys does anyone have any thoughts on my raya vote am i insane

I see where you're coming from. I initially townread her for 95, but I could see 115, 188, and 255 coming from new-ish scum. Her vote on me wasn't great, nor was her apparent misunderstanding of my reasons, and I'm happy she unvoted but I could see it being staged (and I certainly know the feeling of running someone up as scum only to have them push back unexpectedly hard and immediately backing off).

Raya, why do you townread Alchemist?

[Something_Smart]

Hehe neither Draynth nor I are willing to trust BTD6 now. (For the uninformed)

@Smarty BTD's reponse to the wagon on him feels very levelheaded and I think that suggests town that knows it isn't a big deal

Isn't that how BTD6 always plays though? How would you expect him to respond as scum?

(That said, I do like how he responded by continuing to question me.)

I was aware that you had answered multiple times. I considered your answers unsatisfactory at that point, and my post shows that.

Your post missed the point though. I wasn't agreeing with Mario's reasoning per se, I was more following him because he was someone I knew I could trust. And so while what you said was true, it wasn't really relevant. And it certainly didn't address what you thought was unsatisfactory about my answers.

After I had asked, you did give some reasoning about why MM is more likely to have correct reads than a random player. This point does make sense (although it is somewhat weak; MM's reads aren't that much better than a random player).

You didn't give any reasoning on why MM's reads are more accurate than your own. You are confirmed Town to yourself, so you can trust your reads. If you trust MM's reads more than yourself, you need reasoning for why you agree with those reads specifically.

The reason I felt Mario's reads were more accurate than my own is because mine were exceptionally weak, whereas Mario had displayed a normal amount of confidence in his reads.

Suppose MM had the exact opposite reads from their actual reads. Would you still trust them because they are confTown? If not, what makes you trust the reads as they are currently?

Bearing in mind that this refers to my mindset in the past (as now I do have some decent reads), my answer would have been yes.

Alchemist, do you still think 336 applies? Do you still feel that I'm trying to avoid forming reads?

[Something_Smart]

So you don't believe that it's possible for any town player to not have any reads strong enough to vote 14 pages into the game?
Or you don't believe that it's possible for a town player to recognize that their weak suspicions are probably no better than random?

[Something_Smart]

I don't believe that it's possible for a Town player to think sheeping is a better solution to advancing the game or fixing their no reads issue than going on their own suspicions. How is using someone else's reads supposed to fix your own? If you're going for reactions, what reactions do you expect to get from blindly sheeping?

I wasn't trying to do something in order to fix my own reads. My entire point was that when people do things I think I can read, then I'll read them. I never had any intention of specifically getting people to do things that I could then read (because I know from experience that that never works well), though ironically that's exactly what I did.

And your first question there is a dumb one because I straight up said in the 336 you just linked that I can understand someone having a hard time forming reads. That you didn't have reads wasn't my issue, it was how you decided to go about "fixing" the issue.

I wasn't trying to fix the issue. I was trying to vote scum. I expect the average townie's reads to be at least marginally better than random. I didn't expect my reads at that time to be better than random (scumreads anyway, and Mario wasn't voting one of my townreads). I knew Mario was town. Therefore, I figured that the best bet to vote scum was to vote who he was voting, until I found better reads.

Why do you think I would intentionally shun forming any scumreads as scum (thus drawing attention), when I could certainly have fabricated some?

[Something_Smart]

And just like that you're caught in your lie. As for your last question, you could have been trying to get away with doing as little as possible, and sheeping Mario gave you a way to do that.

The vote on Gamma was not the vote I sheeped Mario on.

[Something_Smart]

I might have been wrong in 402 about that being a direct lie, but it still seems like a contradiction that he did something to get reactions, then claims later that he wasn't trying to get reactions. Idk. Maybe I need a break. (I did think today was Tuesday until the guy who comes to our house on Wednesdays showed up).

Getting the game moving doesn't mean getting reactions. Nothing was happening.

[Something_Smart]

But "possibly get reactions" means getting reactions. lol

Ok yes it was a secondary purpose but it's a stretch. Regardless those two votes were two separate events with separate purposes.

Also, can you remind me why you townread Raya?

[Something_Smart]

Intent.

[Something_Smart]

"Townies do suspicious things all the time" was not a defense of suspicious behavior from me but rather an explanation of why I wouldn't vote someone just for doing something suspicious.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Flubber

Fingers crossed.

[Something_Smart]

Can you refresh the reasoning?

The gist of it is that Alchemist doesn't understand the difference between making a pragmatic vote in an effort to lynch scum before deadline and trying to solve the problem of my reads sucking, which is not in my control. And he's decided that that one thing is scum indicative and that nothing else I say matters. (Which is, incidentally, an argument I used as scum in my first game onsite.)

VOTE: iDanyBoy

[Something_Smart]

Sheeping Mario

RIP Mario

I originally townread you because I thought 184 was too weird to be scum, but I'm pretty sure that I had no idea what I was talking about. (Even if you are town, I think "too weird to be scum" is just something I wanted to be a thing and not actually a thing.) The change was brought on by the fact that there were reasons to townread basically everybody, and so some of them had to be invalid. (And yes Mario voting you did cause me to reevaluate AFTER I did the sheep vote. Don't dig deep into my chronological thought process unless you like confusing messes.)

Your scumread and vote on me is very weak. Like I mentioned almost all the votes on me (except for Alchemist's) are, but I don't really see much genuine-looking scumhunting from you in addition to that.

Finally, the way the wagons on you and me rose and fell makes me feel like we're not both town. If we were both town scum would have probably been able to push one of our wagons through without opening themselves up to a deadline wagon that could fall anywhere. (And plus your wagon at its highest in 329 is all town.)

[Something_Smart]

I scumread you because your votes had very little reasoning behind them, such as your votes on BTD-6 and Gamma. Do you still find them scummy? What's changed?
As for your final point I don't understand how that leads to me being scum.

Those votes had reasoning. I never found Gamma that scummy but I voted him because I felt the game was going nowhere and I was contributing to it. I find him a bit scummy but I know he's lynchbait often and his claim was very towny.
I voted BTD6 for his awful vote on me, and I still find him scummy though I thought 371 was somewhat towny.

As for my final point, your wagon had 3 townies on it and scum never showed any interest in pushing it through, even when mine met resistance.

[Something_Smart]

Sorry sorry will get to this later today.

[Something_Smart]

Anyway, while I'm waiting for answers from Raya, I think it'd be naive to think that there were no scum at all on the Flubber lynch, so right now I think there was at least one.?

On the contrary, I think it'd be naive to assume anything about the composition of a deadline wagon that happened as quickly as that one.

In fact, all my townreads were on that wagon and all my scumreads were off, so I think it would be more beneficial to look at my wagon at its highest points; that was pretty clearly the wagon that scum wanted to happen.

I scumread you because your votes had very little reasoning behind them, such as your votes on BTD-6 and Gamma. Do you still find them scummy? What's changed?
As for your final point I don't understand how that leads to me being scum.

Those votes had reasoning. I never found Gamma that scummy but I voted him because I felt the game was going nowhere and I was contributing to it. I find him a bit scummy but I know he's lynchbait often and his claim was very towny.
I voted BTD6 for his awful vote on me, and I still find him scummy though I thought 371 was somewhat towny.

As for my final point, your wagon had 3 townies on it and scum never showed any interest in pushing it through, even when mine met resistance.

So the vote on me for being on the MM4 wagon wasn't serious?

No and I said this before. You did a thing that I thought scum were slightly more likely to do and I felt I needed to have a vote down so the game wouldn't be held up. I'm not scumreading you right now.

Currently, I scumread Dany as well as SS.

Make a commitment then. Vote whichever is greater.

[Something_Smart]

How has it been 2 days
My scumpool is <Draynth, BTD6, iDanyBoy>. For some reason I'm feeling scum-Draynth but I can't really find anything concrete and that didn't go so well last time :/

[Something_Smart]

Like, the beginning of time?
(Actually 227)

Honestly I'm done cutting BTD6 slack. His play regarding the flashwagon on me was so weak and it looks like he just won another scumgame where he was obvscum and people ignored him. And I agree with people being spooked by the apparent consensus on iDanyboy.
VOTE: BTD6

@mod I will be V/LA this weekend

, hopefully I'll be able to post a little but not sure

[Something_Smart]

Hello I'm back. Rip this game

b) she said she was Townreading Something_Smart's reaction to the L-1 as the reason to leave, but she wasn't the first to leave the wagon. It could be that she saw the wagon rising and wanted in on it, then backed off when she realized it wasn't gonna go all the way to a lynch right then.

What do you think caused her to realize this? Did you realize it?

[Something_Smart]

Hello Vedith you're probably town so if you could solve the game that would be fantastic.
Currently a little voice is telling me Alchemist is scum and I'm trying to simultaneously not give in to it and not ignore it.

[Something_Smart]

Draynth is town.

Vedith please provide links to times when you correctly read BTD6 as both alignments.

I'd also like to know your thoughts on Alchemist.

[Something_Smart]

Also Vedith don't be an asshole. Neither of you are stupid and actually the person who made a comprehension error was you.

[Something_Smart]

I never said you said he wasn't. I had no read on him before that interaction. So in that regard, thanks. (Unless he's scum...)

If you are the one who wants to show that BTD6 is town using meta, the burden of proof is on you to provide the meta.

And I don't care if you're good at insulting people, leave it out of Mafia games. This is a cooperative game and saying things like "you are not very smart, I can tell" does nothing but make people pissed at you.

[Something_Smart]

Re: 591, I think the issue is that saying "I like BTD6's scumhunting" isn't a reason. That's like saying "their posts are town motivated"; what Draynth wants to know is why.

[Something_Smart]

I'M asking to see where BTD6 is scumhunting so can we move on from this argument.

Also I just realized that I asked BTD6 to vote their top scumread over a week ago (490) and they still haven't.

[Something_Smart]

V/LA for the weekend

Raya is probably a mislynch. I'd much prefer BTD6 lynched.

[Something_Smart]

On most weekends yes but I'm going camping and I won't even have phone service so rip
Read my ISO I've given several different arguments against BTD6. I don't think lynching anyone other than BTD6 and Raya is a good idea; scum will have WAY too much capability to influence the wagons.

Also having the two most commonly scumread players in LYLO would be a nightmare

[Something_Smart]

Vedith where's the reread of Alchemist I asked you to do?

[Something_Smart]

Reread. Him. Asap.

[Something_Smart]

Because you said you would yesterDay.
Because I think he's scum but nobody else seems to.
Because you aren't partnered with him.
Because the PR kill makes me suspect that the early VT claim is town.
Because if you are town you need to get your head out of your ass.

[Something_Smart]

BTD6 or Dany pending a reread of Alchemist's interactions with them. But doing premature associatives is a bad idea.
I never said you shouldn't consider me as scum.
You shouldn't treat me as confscum like you are.

[Something_Smart]

Why are you suddenly considering BTD6 scum?

Also if you're going to rule out scumteams based on distancing as shallow as that then you should read my interaction with BTD6 starting at 339.

[Something_Smart]

But that interaction goes both ways. I gave significant reasoning against BTD6.

[Something_Smart]

Why in 669 did you assume that I am scum and BTD6 town, yet now a page later your possible teams have BTD6 as second most likely scum and me as least likely?

[Something_Smart]

So what changed in the last page?

[Something_Smart]

And you didn't do that all of yesterday or overnight?

[Something_Smart]

How confident would you say you were in those reads at the beginning of the night? Also what was your read on Dray?

[Something_Smart]

I wanted to hear what people had to say.

You didn't do this though. (The only person you heard was me lol) Are you confident in your reads now?

And what specifically made you so confident Draynth was town?

[Something_Smart]

^This logic is actually so inane that I'm pretty sure it's town. That and Occam's razor keeps nagging me about Gamma's claim makes me comfortable calling Vedith town.

And 696 is a solid post. I have conflicting feelings on Alchemist which is one of the reasons I was annoyed that Vedith didn't do that reread.

[Something_Smart]

After rereading the ISOs of BTD6 and Dany I'd like to lynch one of those two today. I can't get a read I really feel good about on either one but they both have just kind of skated by on scummy content. (And I told y'all Raya was town...)

[Something_Smart]

I'm not gonna lie, I just reread significant parts of my last scum win and now I'm completely stuck in a scum mindset

I'll try to get myself out of it by rereading some of BTD6's and iDanyboy's interactions.

[Something_Smart]

Within the first ten posts of their ISO BTD6 has soft defended all three of their possible partners. Great.

[Something_Smart]

BTD6 hasn't done anything towny. I cut them way too much slack in the last game I played with them and that was a mistake.

Maybe it's not a mistake here, but I don't think that BTD6 really deserves to live another day. (I didn't think so yesterday either)

[Something_Smart]

BTD6, would you say that stating the obvious is a scumtell for you? If not, why do it as town?

[Something_Smart]

Which of us is the roleblocker?

[Something_Smart]

Yes it matters.

I don't think scum would bus the RB with the JK still alive.

So, reread my interactions with Dany and tell me which of us is the valuable PR.

[Something_Smart]

Yes you can?

[Something_Smart]

Although now that you mention it I do see the mod resolves JK vs RB in an illogical way.

Honestly in that case I don't think scum would be bussing at all unless one of them were fairly townread, which Dany and I weren't.

[Something_Smart]

Yes there is; because it's obvious. Like the last sentence of 727 is literally LYLO theory 101 and there's no doubt that everyone in the game knows it. So what was the point of saying it?

[Something_Smart]

Umm... so it doesn't seem like you're saying pointless things to sound busy?

[Something_Smart]

No hammer.

[Something_Smart]

BTD6 could still be with anyone. Don't assume scum wouldn't bus here.

[Something_Smart]

Why can't Alch/BTD6 be the team?

Also, you'd better be liking me more, because mechanically my only possible partner is BTD6. (Same goes for you, though I thought BTD6 was your most likely partner by play anyway.)

[Something_Smart]

Please consider Alch/BTD6 more seriously than you have been. I don't want to lose to them.

[Something_Smart]

I'm not falling for any act. I just don't see a reason why you and BTD6 can't be a team.

I am also wondering why you're not considering BTD6/Dany.

[Something_Smart]

I've talked at least a little bit about why I want to call Vedith town. And I feel like his weird townread of BTD6 upon replacing in was almost TOO obvious to be partners.

[Something_Smart]

And Dany's read progression on BTD6 is literal trash.

[Something_Smart]

It's not too scummy to be scum, it's closer to too weird to be scum. Which is a thing.

Why are you not considering Dany scum a possibility?

[Something_Smart]

What is the Vedith end of the association? Just his meta townread on BTD6?

[Something_Smart]

I mean, I didn't think Vedith would pull out a townread on BTD6 like that if he's scum and BTD6 is town (but widely scumread). Which I guess was accurate. Kinda like me saying I could only be scum with Vedith (which if I didn't say, I almost said and definitely remember thinking.)

[Something_Smart]

Dany, when did you stop scumreading me?

[Something_Smart]

So I was your top scumread but you just decided to stop thinking about me and then suddenly when you remembered me you decided I was town?

[Something_Smart]

Also, what is your general philosophy regarding bussing?

[Something_Smart]

Who were said "people"? What did they do that was scummier than what I did?

[Something_Smart]

How often do you bus as scum?

Btw my current thoughts are from most to least likely:
BTD6/Dany
BTD6/Vedith
BTD6/Alch
Dany/Alch

Also (to Dany but anyone can answer), do you think scum wanted me lynched? If so why?

[Something_Smart]

I can't confidently rule out any BTD6 partners which annoys me.

[Something_Smart]

No pressure indeed.

[Something_Smart]

Alchemist and Vedith, can you both explain what specifically about Dany and BTD6 makes them unlikely to be a team?

[Something_Smart]

I also want your opinions on whether I should make my reads known before night.

[Something_Smart]

Ughhhhh

I'm pretty sure I know who I'm gonna hammer, but at the same time I think content from this LYLO will be useful in the next one (if there even is a next one). AND PARANOIA ISN'T FUN EITHER

So if any of you have more arguments to make, by all means make them. And I apologize in advance if I screw this up; I hate high-pressure situations especially when there's a team I might be letting down.

[Something_Smart]

Actually I do have a question.

Now I could go through and give reasons for why I can't be partners with anyone in this game, but it would mean giving a lot of self-meta that I don't think anyone should really trust anyway.

Can you do this please?

[Something_Smart]

Inversely, had I been scum with Dany, I would have been a lot harder on him when he dropped that naked vote D1. It would have been a great chance to distance from him as scum. I challenged him on it but waited to see his explanation instead of just immediately going "OMG scum" and voting him.

How scummy did you think the naked vote actually was?

[Something_Smart]

Actually this is maybe the thing I want answered most. (I'd still like you to answer the other one of course)
Alchemist, how does Dany's play make him town? I'd like you to stick to his slot as much as possible (so don't use PoE or associatives).

[Something_Smart]

BTD6, what is the difference between your townplay and your scumplay?

[Something_Smart]

You were town in 654, but I don't really remember that much of your play.

Do you believe that you are able to perfectly imitate your town thought processes as scum?

[Something_Smart]

The way he's played has been fairly consistent. A lot of what he said was agreeing/sheeping as well, but he's never tried to claim those reasons as his own, and mixed with some of his own thoughts it gives a sense that what he's saying is what he actually believes.

How does this give that sense? Most scum players aren't gonna copy other people's reasoning anyway.

The D1 vote was weird, but it's weird as either alignment. The contradiction of naked voting a guy because he naked voted is kinda scummy, but then the post after that look like it came from Town - 173 has him basically saying the lack of reasoning was a reaction test, and in 162, 184, and 231 come off as him honestly not realizing the contradiction he was making and him realizing his initial assumption about MM's naked vote was flawed. It shows me he acted on an impulsive Town instinct and then re-evaluated when it was pointed out that he was wrong in his assumptions. The signs that he's Town aren't strong but they are there.

Why do you think he only unvoted once I pointed out that not acting in town's best interest isn't always scummy? (184)

[Something_Smart]

I guess it took 2 people telling him the same thing before it clicked for him.

Maybe it took somebody who wasn't his scumbuddy telling him?

Idk I'm just spitballing here. Full disclosure I think that BTD6 and Vedith have played very poorly if town, Dany mediocrely and you fairly well. That and the majority of signs point toward BTD6/Vedith but a few things don't seem right about it (not least that both BTD6 and Vedith are major lynchbait as town) and it's stressing me out a lot. Because I think more information will help (and I really want to see more interaction between BTD6 and Vedith and between Alchemist and Dany but the fact that each is mostly confirmed town to the other makes that hard), but I don't want this hanging over my head any more than it has to be.

[Something_Smart]

I still have very little of an idea as to how I became a universal townread. I know both scum were on my wagon at some point during Day 1. So they clearly wanted me lynched. They must have then capitalized on the momentum toward Raya/Sergtacos but Draynth started that wagon which doesn't help. Ugh this would have been so much easier if we'd just lynched BTD6 Day 2. Which doesn't look good for Vedith...

It also points to Dany/Alchemist town because those two were the reason I became confirmed (or mostly confirmed) town today. Yet neither of them gave a good reason for why they townread me and in a Dany vs. BTD6 they'd want me to be the hammer.

[Something_Smart]

What's that supposed to mean?

Do you disagree?

[Something_Smart]

Like hammering town?

[Something_Smart]

And being utterly unable to explain that BTD6 read beyond "I like their scumhunting"?

[Something_Smart]

Antagonize the person who can control whether you win, that's a great idea.
And for your information, the one who's trying too hard to be in the spotlight is you, because having a correct read means little if you can't convince others of it. And you won't even try. So if you're town you're being extremely anti-town just to feed your own ego.

[Something_Smart]

I mean, you are right in that BTD6 is certainly on your team.
But that doesn't help me in the slightest.

[Something_Smart]

And it is your issue because it means you'd lose when you could have won by trying to work with me.

[Something_Smart]

It's not too scummy to be scum, it's closer to too weird to be scum. Which is a thing.

(Even if you are town, I think "too weird to be scum" is just something I wanted to be a thing and not actually a thing.)

Shit.

[Something_Smart]

I have plenty of games, you can look through them, as I won't be doing that.

This doesn't sound more than helpful to me.

[Something_Smart]

You don't have to sit through 50+ games; I'm assuming you're confident on BTD6's meta because you've read him correctly in the past. You must be able to recall a few times when you've done that.

[Something_Smart]

Aaaaaa I really don't want to be wrong here and Vedith being an asshole about it isn't helping.

[Something_Smart]

Alchemist, why do you think you didn't die last night?

[Something_Smart]

Like, can you see any crumbs or PR slips from Draynth or anything like that?

[Something_Smart]

So why do you think scum chose to leave you alive?

[Something_Smart]

Also I think I'm gonna drop the hammer soon. I don't think I'm gonna change my mind, and this is stressing me out immensely.

[Something_Smart]

Do you want me to hammer now?

[Something_Smart]

Because my heart is literally racing.

[Something_Smart]

Okay, because I'm really sorry to you if I got this wrong :/
I swear, nobody will feel worse about it than I will.
VOTE: iDanyboy

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Alchemist
There's no way I can realistically do anything else.
Either way, GG.

[Something_Smart]

You have no idea how happy I am about this.
GG though, you two played well and I was very close to voting BTD6 for a while there. I think you underestimated my capacity for paranoia though

[Something_Smart]

I underestimated a lot of things about you. Read the mafia PT, I acted under an assumption you were gonna be lynched D2. lol

I'm actually surprised you thought I would be quicklynched Day 2 after the wagon on me fell apart on Day 1. That's a common pattern with my town games; I'll get pressure early on and I'll either get lynched or beat it and be fairly townread for the rest of the game. Though more on that below.

Subject: Micro 715: Mafia Thread

Having just got out of a game and a half with Fire Screamer I'll say he seems to rely on voting patterns more than anything else. He'll try to work with people he Townread, but don't expect to go around buddying him all game because he doesn't hesitate to change his reads.

Just saw this and thought it was funny because it mostly applied to me this game as well, and you did try to buddy me by the end but it didn't work

You have no idea how happy I am about this.
GG though, you two played well and I was very close to voting BTD6 for a while there. I think you underestimated my capacity for paranoia though

What sealed the deal on Dany for you?

(that's such a tonguetwister I couldn't even type it right).

That's a really good question. My thought processes were so complex and rapidly changing that I never could have documented them in-thread, so I just about stopped when I became conftown. I'll try to recreate them the best I can:

At the start of the day I scumread BTD6 fairly heavily. I also had pings on you which I think you did know about; my vote on you briefly Day 1 and then the "little voice" comment Day 2. You were the only player who was playing what I thought was a normal game; everyone else was all over the place with a bunch of weird things. I did townread Vedith mostly because of Gamma, but I had forgotten most of the reasons I thought Gamma was town other than his claim.

After you and Dany both voted BTD6, I started furiously ISOing all possible teams (I had like 5 tabs open for a while, lol). There was just a mess of associations and since most of those ISOs included BTD6 I kept getting reminded of their scummy posts. I never ISO'd Gamma because I had essentially forgot about his contribution to the game. That led me to 782, which I'm sure made you guys feel good. The reason that I didn't hammer BTD6 there came from my gut; I knew that BTD6 is lynchbait a lot, some of Vedith's posts just didn't feel like scum tactics to me, and your posts still struck me as scum playing a solid game without any obvious flaws.

That caused me to reread the entire game, which I'm very happy I did. It reminded me of how towny Gamma was, and it also brought to light some nasty interactions between you and Dany. First of all, in your post detailing why you couldn't be partnered with anybody (which I'm also glad I asked for), you played up the amount of pressure you put on Dany for naked voting, and your argument there just seemed flimsy in general because the way you treated him was by no means a bad way for partners. (Also, when I asked you why he was town in a vacuum, you couldn't really give good reasons either.) You never really put much pressure on him at all, yet you made 501 which was very smart as it threw me off of Dany for a while. You also made 534 which was forced and never really went anywhere.

I also got the feeling that Vedith wouldn't have played the way he did as scum. As weird as a lot of the stuff he did was, he didn't show an agenda and the way he hard townread BTD6 out of the gate didn't strike me as a play he'd make as their partner. I also really liked on reread that (as he pointed out) he started the day scumreading me but immediately changed his mind. Made me feel like he didn't have a plan for LYLO, whereas you and Dany definitely did. Also, Vedith's arrogance was towny not because he thought he was going to win or because he was trying to manipulate me (although 826 would have been a REALLY low blow had he been scum) but because it felt like he genuinely thought he had solved the game and didn't feel the need to do any more. Which by the way Vedith you still should have as it would have made my job a lot easier. And you know, teamwork and all.

And the feeling that you two had a plan leads right into my last point. I'm sure you can see in my ISO that I was really freaked out about how I became universally townread. All 4 other players were on my wagon during Day 1, so I knew scum wanted me lynched then, so I asked myself, what changed and how did it change? And it was Dany and you who made the first moves in LYLO, so you were the ones who decided I would have hammer, and then you'd piled yourselves on BTD6 who had been my longtime vocal scumread, and it felt terribly like a setup.

All of this sealed the deal. I was scumreading BTD6 before my reread, and by the end of it I was fairly confident on you and Dany. (But still hella paranoid, especially since I really didn't want to lose to BTD6 and Vedith with his arrogance and insults.) And I was extremely stressed throughout the whole thing (I wasn't exaggerating about my heart racing); I bet I put way more effort and thought into this than most other people did, and probably more than I should have, but I'm very happy I did. You two did play well and you gave me a huge challenge that I almost failed to solve (and when I did, it was after a lot of agonizing decision).

Subject: Micro 715: Mafia Thread

Thank, TB.

RIP Dany. I thought about bussing instead of voting BTD but I thought I SS would vote BTD too.

So we've probably lost this game, which is the result we both said was likely to happen at the start of this game anyway but it's still disappointing. There's no good kill to make here. If I kill confTown SS then Vedith and BTD just instantly vote me anyway. If I kill Vedith, then Something_Smart will probably have a panic attack with me and BTD still being at lylo (poor guy's been through enough pressure today), but I think he's smart enough to realize the Vedith kill is the only kill I could make to have a chance of staying alive, and for BTD to have made a Vedith kill it would have to mean that BTD overthought the kill to try framing me rather than just keep Vedith who was already on his side.

Alchemist kills Vedith.

GG Town. I'm not going to concede because of the <1% chance I still win this, but if nothing else SS has at least earned the satisfaction that will come from putting both scum down.

I'm fine with ending Night early.

I appreciate this.
(Except for the panic attack part: I expected Vedith to die, and I was never going to reconsider that that point. I figured the odds of you and Vedith both misreading each other and Dany managing to bus his roleblocker like that were not high enough to be worth considering. Not to mention that you seemed like you had basically given up.)

Also @Vedith and BTD6, I apologize for saying you played poorly if town. Vedith, I'm still not happy about all the insults you made at me and Draynth, but at least you did have solid reads (and your vote on Dany almost certainly saved the game). It's tough with you BTD6 because your posts are so logical and reasoned that they sound fake (and I was even more paranoid about you after losing to you in 714), and I think that you made several questionable actions (including voting me just as my wagon was losing steam), but I think a lot of what I said was just because I really didn't want to lose to someone playing the way you do. The way you play makes it very easy for you to imitate your towngame as scum, which is evidenced by the fact that even you can't give a good explanation of the difference between the two. (On the other hand, if you had asked that question to me, I could probably have fired off at least a half-dozen things that I see that are different, which is one reason I get so frustrated when wagoned as town.)

[Something_Smart]

Oh I didn't mention this but I also thought that an Alchemist/Dany team would have had a much easier time of finding the JK than a Vedith/BTD6 team. I thought that both Alchemist and Draynth were PR possibilities (and Gamma had claimed VT which benefited you but wouldn't have benefited them), and I thought Night 2 that if Alchemist were town then there'd be a decent chance he'd die that night. Little did I know you guys had already known the JK from Night 1

[Something_Smart]

There was also the fact that both Alchemist and Dany immediately townread Gamma for his claim but BTD6 didn't. Townreading Gamma was a very easy stance to take as scum, whereas I'd think that if BTD6 and Gamma were scum BTD6 would have tried to townread Gamma for doing something that would have been clearly a gambit for towncred.

[Something_Smart]

Well done, Town.

SS, do you think scum here were similar to myself in 714? It seemed that scum were again trying to play a Townie against another, but this time you had learned from it.

I think the scum strategies were pretty similar, but I think there were two important differences: first of all, I was confirmed town in this game and could use whatever tools I wanted to try to sort players without fear of what happened in 714. Second of all, one scum was already flipped in that game so I mostly just gave up trying to read you and tried to read Draynth, whereas here I could read you indirectly by reading Vedith/Gamma. But I do think I saw through scum's tactics better in this game as well.