Open 720: NOIR (GAME OVER)

[Oxy]

Is that also suppose to be a reaction test?

probably not any longer~

@Pinturicchio show me you're town so we can co-author wild conspiracy theories.
VOTE: Pinturicchio

[Oxy]

Short names vs long names. Yeah!

Scum team is in Pin, Cee, Mut, and 117 because 3 characters is all you need.

[Oxy]

I hope it comes soon. I prefer it to town claiming scum. =/

[Oxy]

@mutantdevle Where did Quick claim scum?

Initial town reads: korina, alonzo, fumuki

I agree,

in theory

, on policy lynching the scum claimers. I would rather win the game, though.

[Oxy]

@Alonzo I think it's anti-town play. anti-town != scum

[Oxy]

e.g., The newb!town in your game attempts slayer's gambit. Yes, he is playing in an anti-town fashion. That doesn't change his alignment from newb!town to newb!scum.

[Oxy]

@mutantdevle Ah, thanks!

@Quick Is Mutantdevle right about your meaning in 53?

[Oxy]

@Ceejayvinoya There are a million examples of anti-town play that can come from town. That was just the first that came to mind. =)

[Oxy]

Also, the original Slayer's Gambit was attempted in the first page or so of the game. Just sayin'.

[Oxy]

@mutantdevle Where did Quick claim scum?
Initial town reads: korina, alonzo, fumuki
I agree,

in theory

, on policy lynching the scum claimers. I would rather win the game, though.

Why Korina
Why Alonzo
Why Fumuki
Why do you agree with that policy

Korina - I believe Korina "joined in." The way he gets into the act does not feel staged. His different imaginations for their "plan" vs Fumuki's doesn't feel coordinated.
Alonzo - Drunk on his birthday, memeing in his game, having fun. Obviously I don't have statistics on this, but I bet this comes from town way more than it comes from scum.
Fumuki - Can't say because reasons.

Yeah, it's weaksauce. It's early.

I agree in theory because if town who claimed scum were always policy lynched, town would stop claiming scum... but this doesn't help me win this game, so no thanks.

[Oxy]

There is probably a limit on how anti-town a member of town can play before it's simply +ev to lynch them and end the distractions.

[Oxy]

Elaborate, pintchorizo?

I like other things you are doing, but this is a terrible nickname for Sordicchio. =(

[Oxy]

I dunno. I'll tell you tonight.

[Oxy]

184 is a townie post. I especially like the very last bit. =)

[Oxy]

And I don't believe someone would attempt a slayers this early in the day.

Why did you say this?

[Oxy]

I think its suicide and the guy trying to do it will end up getting lynched. I haven't played enough games to see it actually work.

Have you played games on another site?

[Oxy]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... 27s_Gambit
Be careful with that shit Fumuki, it's an ok place to start but has a knack of -- as I said earlier -- sorting playstyles rather than sort alignments.

^snipped for vertical space. There are at least two of these info posts about this topic by The Worst so far. To those of you who know the duckling, is he usually so darn helpful as either alignment?

[Oxy]

@Oxy .... "I especially like the very last bit" hurt me a little...

Uh...I didn't thought I utterly sucked at it....*sniff*

Hey, chin up little guy.
That's it. =)
You're going to be a great troll. One of the finest. Just keep practicing, okay?

Alright, off you go. But stay where I can see you!

[Oxy]

I'm at post 194. I'll see you in 70 posts. It's looking like I have too many town reads. =/

[Oxy]

Many words

I read every word of this.

What were you hoping to achieve with this post?

[Oxy]

Strong town read

fumuki-I know he claimed scum, but this guy is obv!town.

town reads

(less light, not strong)
vivi - reasons

town lean

Alonzo - no change
korina - I was getting comfortable with a town read but then 208 happened
sando - He and I independently arrived at the same conclusion about mutantdevle, at least until Sando did the meta read through). I like a lot of his thought processes, even though I don't actually agree with some (most?) of his conclusions. This is difference in opinion on what is/isn't alignment indicative.

null

mutantdevle - I'm townleaning this conditional on him having played 0 games with fumuki and conditional on me reading that game that got linked of his.
the worst - He's really helpful. Not so sure about the scumhunting.
Quick - I kind of want to say he really did town slip, but ehh there will be better things to build a read on.

[Oxy]

bro you are all fluff and one read list I can't town read you, but I really want to fuck

[Oxy]

lolol you better make some great hats this game.

[Oxy]

What do you think about the duckling not really game solving?

[Oxy]

Do you want me to fake a scum read for you? What do you think about my town reads?

[Oxy]

@the worst He's here. I'm here. I want him to talk. I like Pin as a person and want to play with him. What do you think about Korina's 208?

p.edit @sordicchio How did I know you would go there with your first? Am I starting to think like you???? Why is Quick a good pocket?

[Oxy]

Yes. The specificity of the question should be inversely proportional to the ease-of-engagement factor for the player being questioned. It's all in my book, Marrington on Mafia.

p.edit @the worst same. do you scum read him?

[Oxy]

No, I've read enough Not_Mafia.

[Oxy]

I'm sorry the joke went over your head =/

[Oxy]

Oh a person I didn't know was playing, how nice.

Vivi:

Spoiler:

[Oxy]

OK, so based on these "conditions" how would you read them

0 games with fumuki plus I don't find a meta reason to scumread, and I would town lean him. (like i said in the line about him)

[Oxy]

Many words

I read every word of this.

What were you hoping to achieve with this post?

If you had to guess what Quick wanted to achieve with this post, what would your guess be?

I'm enjoying talking to you btw

Nah. I thought the post had already been responded to, and have interrupted enough. Let them have their interaction.

And I, you!

[Oxy]

@quick origin of my mutantdevle read:

Spoiler:

I need to ask again why no one is voting ceejayvinoya based on my theory....

Like...it would be the best lynching option...

Is this serious? I'm not sure if I'm blatantly missing your theory here but I ISO'd you and this is the best I could find:

Username specifically made to no one vote him.

Game solved guys, proceed to lynching.

VOTE: ceejayvinoya

In a side note, Happy Birthday Alonzo.

I'm assuming this is you still joking because trying to suggest that someone is scum because of a username they chose before they got their role card is just ridiculous.

Sorry you two, I disagree, but one thing occurred to me: mutant's reaction is not that of someone who's played with Fumuki before, if he has then I'd say he's probably setting it up as a mislynch. That said, if he hasn't, this strikes me as a townie respond.

Played with = scum
Not played with = town

I haven't had coffee yet and been picking up after my new puppy since 7...I'll investigate my above later today.

I love the thinking behind this. I also agree. I can't wait to hear more!

As either alignment, mutantdevle looked for that post by fumaki and was then annoyed when he found it was a troll post. If he had played with fumaki, that was scummy because he should have expected the troll. If he's scum, he realizes it's a troll because he knows fumaki is town. He doesn't get frustrated like that. So if he as never played with him, he is either town, or superb at hitting the right notes.

[Oxy]

Quick Oxy is scum before poignantchips here imo, want to vote him with me?

No, I think I'm probably going to bed soon. Maybe tomorrow. =)

[Oxy]

@quick oh ya there are other posts by mutantdevle like the "oh i understand he is troll" one that feed into it as well. I just didn't grab them all.

[Oxy]

sando - He and I independently arrived at the same conclusion about mutantdevle, at least until Sando did the meta read through

You disagree with the meta read, or just not a big meta read kinda guy?

Just haven't gotten around to it yet, so it is not factored in.

[Oxy]

Alonzo - no change

Can you explain why you town lean Alonzo despite him posting essentially entirely shitposts? I can hazard a guess at your reasoning but I want to see if that's what you see.

It's a light town read based on him getting drunk and memeing and having fun in his game on his birthday. There are no statistics about the correlation between getting drunk, getting older, and having fun in one's mafia game and ones alignment, but I have a hunch it comes from town more often than scum. This is probably my softest read, but I see no reason for it to change over a period of time in which alonzo hasn't posted.

[Oxy]

In post 267, Oxy wrote:
Strong town read

fumuki-I know he claimed scum, but this guy is obv!town.
town reads (less light, not strong)
vivi - reasons


Wut even is this? What am I reading? This isn't RVS, this is the serious phase. Please explain everything you mean by this right now. I don't even know where to start on this.

This is not the game of scum!fumuki claiming scum
claiming slayers
Executing the switch from trolly posts to more serious posts, back to a middle ground in an emotionally and tonally manner consistent with town.

Reasons mean reasons I can't, or will not, give. I kind of thought that was obvious..

[Oxy]

okiee have fun with that

[Oxy]

not that I can tell. My vote is still from RVS...

[Oxy]

@quick reasons

[Oxy]

Why is CJ Town?

sorry for ambiguity =)

[Oxy]

Wasn't asking you???

The answer, while directed at you, wasn't actually meant for you either. ;P

[Oxy]

Yay fellow FF fans! You all get bonus townlean points

Kidding aside,

@Oxy

is duckling still null to you? So far I think he's pretty helpful for town.

Yeah, still null. Could you point me to the posts that make you think he's town?

[Oxy]

Yay fellow FF fans! You all get bonus townlean points

Kidding aside,

@Oxy

is duckling still null to you? So far I think he's pretty helpful for town.

Yeah, still null. Could you point me to the posts that make you think he's town?

@sando same question to you. =)

[Oxy]

It was in the quote... Could you point me to the posts that make you think [duckling] is town?

[Oxy]

@sando Thanks for that answer! Could you please point me to the posts that express these things for you? [post] tags are fine, I don't mind clicking.

[Oxy]

the worst, asking them for the posts that make you look town is an exercise to both to help me sort you, and to continue building my reads on them. The game is long, and I'll get to different slots as I get to them.

I'm concerned that your biggest concern seems to be my read on you.

[Oxy]

114 is probably the first strong townread of the game.

165 is a strong push against a quick wagon who had one of his townreads already on it, this is what I'm getting at with anti-groupthink

His clarity and laissez faire attitude don't really have any specific post, it's more of a trend than any particular post.

I'm gonna leave it there, Oxy what are you trying to gain through this interaction?

Answered this already above.

So you're town reading him for giving a town read without explanation in a confident fashion?

[Oxy]

I don't mean to imply that is the only reason you are town reading him

I'm asking why you consider that particular thing townie

[Oxy]

Quick Oxy is scum before poignantchips here imo, want to vote him with me?

No, I think I'm probably going to bed soon. Maybe tomorrow. =)

Reading through Duckling Iso, I realize I misread this, lol. I thought you wanted me to vote Quick, and not the reverse.

[Oxy]

Got any conclusions there or are we just gonna keep playing the questions game and pretend you're contributing content?

I'm sorry. It's difficult to build conclusions from questions until people answer them.
So far I've concluded that this portion of your read doesn't seem valid.

I'm surprised at your reaction to my questions since you are town reading the duckling and he's been giving a master class in questions without content. It does not seem consistent. Don't misconstrue this as me suggesting that asking questions is scummy. This behavior is NAI, imo.

[Oxy]

You wanted the analysis...

So you're town reading him for giving a town read without explanation in a confident fashion?

No I'm saying a confident town-read early in the game is anti-scum. Scum don't want to clear people, and they don't want to put a spotlight on their scumpartners, the easiest and simplest way to do this is to say little of note about them. One of the hardest and probably most dangerous for scum ways to do this is to give confident townreads.

This is bunk because
a) there's really no downside to having a strong town read D1.
b) wifom
c) if it becomes convenient to try and mislynch/bus, there will be more recent posts to allow changing a read
d) there's not actually any evidence that he held you as a strong read at that point
e) wifom

165 is a strong push against a quick wagon who had one of his townreads already on it, this is what I'm getting at with anti-groupthink

And this is bunk because the vote was based on a potential town slip being misunderstood to be a scum slip (or a reaction test, w/e) and the only reasonable view from either alignment is that the vote was bad.

So yeah, my conclusion from this exercise is that I should be very careful to check your work before sheeping any of your reads, even if you end up conf!town.

[Oxy]

Oof...IV is my favourite. Guess I'm foreveralone.

I'll have a better read of Oxy when he talks to me (if he isnt scared of me. ). Pardon me for being dismissive but any case or explanation I give now would be lacking compared to one I can give shortly.

You want to talk about my not having sorted you yet?
I'm not working on a well cited paper with footnotes for you about why fumuki is my strongest town read right now.

[Oxy]

1) define concern vs topic
2) What is the benefit of me doing this homework assignment when I've already given the tl;dr on why fumuki is my strongest read.
3) You're wrong? You're charismatic, and that's great, but you're not bleeding town for me and I'm working on sorting you.

Tell me why my read list is shit.

[Oxy]

This is not the game of scum!fumuki claiming scum
claiming slayers
Executing the switch from trolly posts to more serious posts, back to a middle ground in an emotionally and tonally manner consistent with town.

here's a stance

[Oxy]

I don't have another strong read at this point to take a stand on.

[Oxy]

See thats a big problem. I notice you've got townreads/leans on a number of players, but it feels like every reason you give comes with a reason you could be wrong. This is a scummy behaviour. It indicates avoiding accountability which comes from a survival>gamesolving mindset.

Have strong reads - You're too confident in your reads! You must be scum because only they could be that confident
Don't have strong reads - You don't have strong reads! you must be scum because they benefit from not having strong reads

Both lines of argument are awful at this point. Turns out, the strength of my reads are determined by the town tells other people give off in a particular game, and my ability to pick up on them.

[Oxy]

Pin is a person who I have spoken to prior to the start of this game, and who I enjoy engaging with.

Replace korina with vivi to better represent my reads at this point

I've literally just began the process of engaging two of the three people (on the proper list)

[Oxy]

actually, Pin is the only person in this thread who I have spoken to prior to the start of this game.

[Oxy]

re: 446 So then what about my reads reads as insincere?

[Oxy]

K...

a) Yes there is, I said why
b) K
c) really? If duckling turns around now and says "gee Sando your attack on Oxy is deserving of a lynch" you're not going to be a little suspicious?
d) he expressed it and continues to back it up, that's kinda what we're looking for here.
e) K

a) agree to disagree
c) I'm assuming a halfway decent ability to bullshit in your average scum.
d) ok

So hang on, duckling points out why someone was wrong (and you agree he's correct), but I'm wrong to think that gives him townpoints?

Yes, we disagree here. I think it's NAI because I think it's easily done from both alignments. I think his multiple posts being helpful are also NAI.

That said, I think they did help people, and that is a behavior to be encouraged. It's NAI, outside of a meta case, though...

[Oxy]

Oxy, I get the feeling from all of this that you're determined that nothing can be a towntell or be a reasonable basis for reading someone town. I both disagree with that and find it independently scummy. I also find it particularly scummy in the context of trying to get me to prove a negative.

This would be an incorrect assessment of my view on towntells and reading people. Also, proving town is not the same as proving not scum, but that's besides the point.

I wanted to see your thought process. If there was a really good thought process, it would have helped me solidify my town read on you, and potentially help me sort the duckling. It wasn't. That's not necessarily AI, so the effort didn't result in great read progress, and I snapped back when you snapped at me.

Good interaction overall. Would do again.

[Oxy]

LOL devle get some sleep!

But I have 6000 words to write

On mafia or like an essay?

Was that the entirety of the interaction you were looking to have with me?

Demanding that I create a new strong read on the spot

and then calling it scummy when I don't?

This is

real

scum hunting?

[Oxy]

If there was a really good thought process, it would have helped me solidify my town read on you, and potentially help me sort the duckling.

Rofl so none of the stuff I've talked about are towntells, but a good thought process would be...righto mate. Pretty sure my thought process is the same whether I'm town or scum,

Also dis:

c) I'm assuming a halfway decent ability to bullshit in your average scum.

So what you're effectively saying is that it's just as easy for a halfway decent scum to wind-back their strong town-read as it is to wind back their weak town-reads?

You and I do not agree on your first point. If thought processes were identical for town and scum, optimal scum hunting would be rolling a die.

Yeah, actually, well reasoned reads can often give insight into a mind set that is distinctly town. Poorly reasoned ones can sometimes lead to the same result, but I find it easier to gauge motivation in well reasoned posts because it precludes the question of "scum or dumb?"

[Oxy]

oh yeah, no, I was not making that statement.

but at the same time I wouldn't say that reversing a strong read is inherently scummy. New information can and should be able to change people's opinions.

And scum can take advantage of that. Why not?

[Oxy]

oh yeah, no, I was not making that statement.

but at the same time I wouldn't say that reversing a strong read is inherently scummy. New information can and should be able to change people's opinions.

And scum can take advantage of that. Why not?

Ok, so you're saying that:

a) It's harder for scum to wind back a strong townread than a weak townread
b) There's zero reason for scum not to give a strong townread

You can see why I find that a little odd maybe?

Yes this is an accurate representation of my opinion. I think you'll find plenty of games in which scum gives a relatively strong early town read. And if that weren't the case, scums would start doing it just to get town cred. And then maybe you could come up with some percentage of time that it would be correct for scum to give a strong town read and a percentage of time for town to just consider it a town read, but I'm not doing a dissertation here. At a basic level, it's just not AI.

Yeah, it's odd because you disagree, like it's odd to me that you think a player has identical thought processes as either alignment.

[Oxy]

Oh are you saying that because it is somewhat harder for scum to reverse a strong town read than a weaker town read that it is sub optimal for scum to give strong town reads?

Give me a break. The wifom case for giving a strong town read under this assumption far outweighs any strategic disadvantage that comes from town binning a single player. This is especially true when some percentage of the time that strong town read is actually a scum partner.

[Oxy]

This is the scummiest thing in the game so far.

the worst says I'm scum because I engaged Pinturicchio in conversation rather than my town reads

I point out I engaged with him because he is the only person in the thread I have spoken with before the start of the game, and that I've also engaged my town reads.

the worst says I'm scum because I don't have an arbitrary number of strong reads

This is just bad.

Actual scummy part: Has no interest in continuing to engage once I begin arguing in what is probably a tvt.

VOTE: the worst

[Oxy]

@Oxy If I'm reading you right you were trying to get other people's opinions on your null reads earlier?

Sure - do you have any you would like to share?

[Oxy]

Give me a break. The wifom case for giving a strong town read under this assumption far outweighs any strategic disadvantage that comes from town binning a single player. This is especially true when some percentage of the time that strong town read is actually a scum partner.

No...you asked me for why I'm townreading someone and then characterised what I said as not being a towntell due to "there's really no downside to having a strong town read D1".

There's a big difference between "there's no reason" and "the pros roughly equal the cons". That says there's plenty of reasons and they offset

I really don't see the big difference in the context of determining someone's alignment. Also "no downside != no reason."

This discussion has gone down a rabbit hole of theory and wifom, and no longer seems productive to me, so I am going to stop participating in it.

[Oxy]

Yeah I'm here.

@vivi It's a better read than his last one on me, for sure.

[Oxy]

Yes, I had the thought when I was giving the thread a close read, just prior to giving those reads.

If you want to get really specific, I had had the thought prior to asking if you were always so helpful.

[Oxy]

UNVOTE:

I'm tempted to join the Pintu wagon, is there a legit scum case on him?

2 RVS votes and a shitty-reads justification vote. I'm going to hold off on that wagon for now actually.

Then why were you tempted in the first place?

Questions I can't believe I didn't think to ask for 400, please.

[Oxy]

this might take a while due to my poor edit-fu, but if you wanna whip up a top 5 townposts of the worst in the meantime, il be sure to give it a read.

Lol nah mate, this just says you haven't read the thread well enough if you're asking me for my town-read justification on duckling.

For everyone else, reread Sando 523 in light of Alonzo. The difference between Oxy and Alonza is fairly stark and falls exactly down what I'm trying to say about scum motivation vs possible town motivation. Alonzo isn't interested in proving me wrong just to destroy a TR of mine, he wants to lynch duckling, an admittedly noble goal. Oxy just sets out to destroy someone's TR without getting in there with the lynch and scum-reads.

@Quick - That post is also why your 582 is weak.

Okay, this is a topic apparently.

For what it's worth the actual motivation to "destroy your TR" was that

my patience was short last night

you were snippy when you asked me

Got any conclusions there or are we just gonna keep playing the questions game and pretend you're contributing content?

and I didn't handle it very well, so I snapped back

I'm sorry. It's difficult to build conclusions from questions until people answer them.
So far I've concluded that this portion of your read doesn't seem valid.

but then you scum read me for dismissing your read without explanation - fair, enough.

so I gave you an explanation for why your read was bunk.

Believe it, or don't, but I haven't masterminded a plan to wedge the duckling from your town circle.

[Oxy]

ya, mate - the motivation was that I had a short fuse last night and you gave me an excuse to swing, lol.

In other news, I'm liking where my vote is. I agreed with Quick about the 3 post shot gun spray from the duckling after Quick voted there. Seemed off key from town.

I don't really want to PL N_M today. I think we can do better than that.

More later when I can do a close read.

[Oxy]

but saying I'm wrong without addressing the logic will get you tunnelled and ridiculed.

So this was a policy tunneling and ridiculing, then? Or do you actually scum read me?

[Oxy]

Actually, you don't have to answer, this post is bleeding town (676)

[Oxy]

Actually, you don't have to answer, this post is bleeding town (676)

I disagree that you should be giving Townie points for being "logical." Scum can make cases on people too, and in fact, I'd say more often than not Scum default to being rational and Town default to being unsound/chaotic/unknowledgeable/ignorant/doubtful. The reason for this is simple: Town are automatically in a place filled with chaos while Scum are in a place of order.

I translate 676 as the following, and it reads very townie to me:

Okay, yeah, I see what you're saying.

But I maintain that in ideal world, things would be such that I would be right!

And even if you're right, his reaction would be bad in that scenario, too!

And now I'm frustrated that I've come all the way down this rabbit hole and oxy is either bad!scum or bad!town but it's his bad play that got me into this mess

so I'm going to keep voting him regardless

And you could be right about him being terribad!town so I don't want to continue arguing with you about his alignment

But people better step the fuck off with the unsubstantiated insults

[Oxy]

It's actually a good case for a playstyle, and yeah, it's my playstyle except I hadn't really thought consciously about fighting off TR's I don't like.

I was really just in a shitty mood, and I felt like he was coming at me, so I told him his read was shit instead of trying to be diplomatic.

[Oxy]

Hm?

So duckling is the lynch today, then.

[Oxy]

that, "hm?" tho

that comes from town? no way....

[Oxy]

You couldn't script caught scum better

[Oxy]

that, "hm?" tho

that comes from town? no way....

idk, i write hmmm a lot as town. lotta little things we don't consider we do that might come off as scummy. like i said, i prrobably don't hit the duck and instead wait for eddie. ice as far as im concerned along with alonzo and devle are all pretty easy wolves. hitting the duck is a risk i dont wanna take.

This wasn't a "hmmm."

that "hm?" is that thing people do that really means "I'm pretending I didn't hear you or don't understand to give me time to get my story straight because I'm guilty af."

That he put it into text is amazing. Must have thought not answering at all would be too scummy.

But no one does that little "hm?" with a clean conscience.

Like, what?

[Oxy]

So then what was the point of the post, duck? Did you not understand his question?

[Oxy]

Sure it was a reaction test, and what town is coming back with "hm?" gtfo of here. Lynch should be duck.

[Oxy]

I'm not going to argue with you about it. People are either going to see it as caught scum or not.

I think you froze. =/

[Oxy]

I'm not sure I understood that sentence, but I'll be here tomorrow night EST. I gotta get to bed tho, it's nearly 3am. =/

[Oxy]

Have a few minutes this morning.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=75246

There we go
I attribute it largely to confidence, I am new.

i only got one question. why are you bussing your partner?

Hm?

I'd expect town to react with amusement, not "what was that?". His Majesty's question is pretty plain. I'm sure if you reacted with just your post 769 Oxy would have ignored you.

Pretty much any other reaction. I've been thinking that the "lol, who's your partner" type questions are useless as reaction tests because no one fails them, but I was wrong!

[Oxy]

UNVOTE: Quick

In all honesty (since I'm mobile posting rn), that was a pressure/reaction vote.
I wanted to see what people would do in reaction to what I said.

I'll post what I got from it later when I have my laptop.

Also NM being trolly fuck again, I see.

This post is Scummy af... who else thinks so?

I thought it was pretty bad - pointed it out earlier. That korina town read started falling off as soon as I gave it.

[Oxy]

mutant's reaction is not that of someone who's played with Fumuki before

Correct, I haven't played with Fumuki before. Looking at his join date I wouldn't have thought anyone has (unless you count on going games). It always takes me a while to adjust to troll posters. Eg. I didn't realise Not_Mafia was a shit poster until halfway through the first game I played with him.

Do not like the lack of possibility that Fumuki could be an alt. Don't like that at all.

I thought this was a safe assumption. Isn't there a way to know if someone has other accts? sorry for newb

[Oxy]

Wait so now him pushing against my TR is, in fact, rational?

You can make this argument if you want, but it's going to get pretty thick in here if you do.

Lol nah I don't really care, that was just a troll, this has gone way too far down the rabbit hole to be useful, and he's stated himself it wasn't a rational conversation. I'm comfortable with where I'm at, he's staying in my lynch list, and I've gotten out of this what I wanted.

I seriously don't get the Town motivation here of Sando not wanting to hash out his biggest SR.

Is being stubborn always alignment indicative?

Like, I can completely see his reaction to your pressure coming from stubborn town. What motivation does scum!Sando get from laughing you off when you say you have trashed his read and that town!sando should reconsider?

I dunno, it's definitely not an unambiguously rational play from either alignment (lol)

[Oxy]

I'm super confused by the Quick + Oxy team here, it makes zero of the senses.

I'm cool with Ico.

VOTE: Iconeum

Momo I haven't seen your read on Oxy?

This is really really bad. Pretty much naked vote after Sando and I hashed out for like 2 pages our read on Oxy. So for Sando to just up and "I will vote lurker now" is not a good look at all.

okay yeah, this is not a good look

[Oxy]

mutant's reaction is not that of someone who's played with Fumuki before

Correct, I haven't played with Fumuki before. Looking at his join date I wouldn't have thought anyone has (unless you count on going games). It always takes me a while to adjust to troll posters. Eg. I didn't realise Not_Mafia was a shit poster until halfway through the first game I played with him.

Do not like the lack of possibility that Fumuki could be an alt. Don't like that at all.

I thought this was a safe assumption. Isn't there a way to know if someone has other accts? sorry for newb

Only reason I bring it up is cuz I have someone in mind, but given they are not in many other games, that read is pending. Theory is they want to just play certain roles with that alt, but that's tin foil, admittedly.

Oh - is this taking into consideration that Fumuki replaced out? Because he did that across all of his games, so that's NAI.

[Oxy]

In post 328, mutantdevle wrote:
In post 181, Sando wrote:
mutant's reaction is not that of someone who's played with Fumuki before

Correct, I haven't played with Fumuki before. Looking at his join date I wouldn't have thought anyone has (unless you count on going games). It always takes me a while to adjust to troll posters. Eg. I didn't realise Not_Mafia was a shit poster until halfway through the first game I played with him.

Actually, I don't think this is dependent on Fumuki being an alt.

Either way it's an unknown name and play style, and that is what mutant would have been reacting to here.

[Oxy]

I see that the votes have not flooded onto the duckling. I respectfully disagree with you all.

The hydra's vote on Iconeum looks promising.

I didn't check what Alonso was saying in 580 against the posts the first time around because he didn't make links

If you haven't compared his notes to the posts they are referencing, you should. I can make a wall on why it's terrible if necessary, but just look.

The rest of his ISO is also underwhelming.

town
{Hydra, Quick, Sando, Vivi}
not town
{Korina, Not Maf, Pinturicchio, Randomidget, Mutantdevle*}
Scum
{Duckling, Alonso, Iconeum}

*This slot is due for a reappraisal. I just don't want to read his iso right now.

[Oxy]

I can make a wall on why it's terrible if necessary, but just look.

I know why it's terrible, as were his follow ups. Is it scummy though? If so, why?

That's a fair question. It's definitely not townie, and I think that in the context of his ISO as a whole, it is scummy.

That push onto duckling that examined posts up through rvs conveniently ends before there is anything significant to discuss about why his partner is scum.

I'd love for him to make the rest of the case. =)

I really will be low key surprised if town made 580, though.

[Oxy]

@Alonzo Are you going to finish your case on the duckling, mate?

[Oxy]

@Quick I'm not really even trying to figure all that out right now. I just believe that Alonzo is probably scum and that the duckling is really probably scum and that this thing between them could be svs as easily as anything else.

His game includes lots of narration of events with no or low substance alignment reads as a result, fluff, and a

half-assed push.

p.edit hrmm I did miss that spoiler, and it's definitely a better looking ISO than if he just never followed up on that first post. Going to have to think on it.

[Oxy]

Are you saying that if I vote Icon, you will vote Icon?

[Oxy]

You would be okay putting it at L-1 with NM having just signaled with his vote?

[Oxy]

I'd probably vote Icon if there was explicitly a case on him. Alternatively, if Oxy was on it then I'd be town reading the wagon enough to join it.

This implies that you had just inspected the wagon against your read list.

You joining the Icon wagon in it's current state would reach that threshold for me where I town read the wagon enough to join it myself.

You again give off the impression that you understand the composition of this wagon.

And you were clearly aware of NM

You would be okay putting it at L-1 with NM having just signaled with his vote?

Oh shit... No, I wouldn't. I would, however, be comfortable placing intent to hammer if you and not_mafia were on the wagon.

But then, this... I don't like this at all, especially since it's all wrapped up in posts meant to show that you are really paying attention to wagon composition.

VOTE: mutantdevle

[Oxy]

That was the event that precipitated my vote, yes. =)

[Oxy]

Pintu should know better than to vote for me for something like this though.

Pintu was already voting for you, actually..

[Oxy]

Dis, why is this a bad thing? Hey people who I think are scummy are on the wagon...that makes me dubious. Why is that bad logic?

His whole post is "Look at how I'm analyzing the wagon to decide if it's likely a good wagon or not. Isn't that townie?" but he couldn't have actually analyzed the wagon because then he would know who and how many votes were on there.

And he says this is normal for him

but for whom is faking wagon analysis a town tell?

[Oxy]

Why is my vote confusing you? Happy to clear things up.

[Oxy]

Why is my vote confusing you? Happy to clear things up.

Can you say why you SR Devle like at least 4 pages ago?

First, I like the hydra's understanding of Mutantdevle's read list.

But the reason I voted was Mutantdevle's interaction with me in posts 1000-1006.

I summarized the reasoning here:

Spoiler:

I'd probably vote Icon if there was explicitly a case on him. Alternatively, if Oxy was on it then I'd be town reading the wagon enough to join it.

This implies that you had just inspected the wagon against your read list.

You joining the Icon wagon in it's current state would reach that threshold for me where I town read the wagon enough to join it myself.

You again give off the impression that you understand the composition of this wagon.

And you were clearly aware of NM

You would be okay putting it at L-1 with NM having just signaled with his vote?

Oh shit... No, I wouldn't. I would, however, be comfortable placing intent to hammer if you and not_mafia were on the wagon.

But then, this... I don't like this at all, especially since it's all wrapped up in posts meant to show that you are really paying attention to wagon composition.

VOTE: mutantdevle

Dis, why is this a bad thing? Hey people who I think are scummy are on the wagon...that makes me dubious. Why is that bad logic?

His whole post is "Look at how I'm analyzing the wagon to decide if it's likely a good wagon or not. Isn't that townie?" but he couldn't have actually analyzed the wagon because then he would know who and how many votes were on there.

And he says this is normal for him

but for whom is faking wagon analysis a town tell?

[Oxy]

When I did my last reads list, I never got around to evaluating Mutantdevle because lazy.

So he's in need of a read through.

But the interaction I linked is very scummy.

And I like Momo's understanding of Mutantdevle's read list.

tl;dr: Post 1000 began the scum read.

[Oxy]

Yeah, I just gave a tl;dr for a 4 line post.

[Oxy]

Third vote only because I took the time to type out why. I got p.edited by the hydra vote.

You do you with the reevaluation. Let me know what I can do to help!

[Oxy]

snip

Dude... I wasn't faking wagon analysis, that's not what I meant at all.

I was analysing whether or not I should join the wagon based on how much I trust the people on it to make the right call. I knew I wasn't in a position to hammer and I knew that it wasn't L-1 so the number of people on the wagon meant nothing to me. I apologise if myself overlooking the maths that you + me on the wagon = N_M lolhammer bothers you.

And the part I was referring to as normal for me was small mistakes like this and misjudgements in logic.

Yeah, but just previously you were engaging with NM and discussing him quick hammering

That's why it's difficult for me to believe that town!mutantdevle would fail to make that connection when analyzing the wagon

And why it's easy for me to believe that scum!mutantdevle did a cursory comparison of his readlist and the wagon

But didn't put in enough thought to realize the implications.

[Oxy]

nows when townhunting eddie wins

oxy, sando, quick, pintu, nm, piss

if anyone in this group thinks anyone else in this group is scum lemme know.

I'm going to assume you have a reason to read NM, because he looks unreadable from this useless slot's pov.

I don't understand why Piss is lock town. I was reading korina town very early, but this read cooled as he continued posting. Did I miss something specifically townie?

[Oxy]

Quick

is obv!town

Duckling, Oxy, Mutant, Mom

I tend to read as a variety of strength of townleans, but they're contributing in generally townie ways and should not be today's lynch. Duckling is my strongest TR there, then Oxy, mutant and Mom bringing up the rear.

PK and CJ

I'm a very light townlean on, but they're not contributing a lot in townie ways so they're not in my non-lynch pool yet, I think they're a poor choice though.

Random and N_M

I scumlean on but there's not nearly enough for me to judge definitively.

Pintu

I scumlean on due to lack of constructive posting.

Alonzo

I'm currently fairly scumleaning on, I've flipped on this a few times so I'm currently mulling this one over.

Ico

I fairly definitively scumread.

Hi! When did I stop being scum?

[Oxy]

Thanks for replies, guys - couple of thoughts from the day

My analysis of

Mutantdevle

's wagon analysis was probably trash.
And my early read on him was town (given met conditions - one condition met, meta condition unexplored) Will iso this slot tonight (tomorrow?)
My initial impression was that his interaction with the hydra earlier today was townie.

But my read on

caught duck scum

is dead on, take it to the bank, got the nuts, count your chickens good.

Alonzo

's logic is often difficult to follow, and sometimes objectively faulty. This mixed with him being disagreeable (role playing denzel from training day?) makes reading him tough.
He's either abrasive town, or abrasive scum, but all I can manage to read is abrasive.
Wouldn't mind knowing if that's an AI thing for him or not, but I think I might be against meta dives from a personal fun perspective, so let's call it scummy for now.

I'm placing my vote back on duck because a) I don't want to keep it on mutant after reeval, b) He is caught scum c) to remind you all he is caught scum.

VOTE: The Worst

[Oxy]

logic was the wrong word to use in the bit about Alonzo. Please replace it with "reasoning" or "train of thought"

[Oxy]

@duckling I would probably want to black this memory out, too...

Spoiler:

Hm?

So duckling is the lynch today, then.

that, "hm?" tho

that comes from town? no way....

idk, i write hmmm a lot as town. lotta little things we don't consider we do that might come off as scummy. like i said, i prrobably don't hit the duck and instead wait for eddie. ice as far as im concerned along with alonzo and devle are all pretty easy wolves. hitting the duck is a risk i dont wanna take.

This wasn't a "hmmm."

that "hm?" is that thing people do that really means "I'm pretending I didn't hear you or don't understand to give me time to get my story straight because I'm guilty af."

That he put it into text is amazing. Must have thought not answering at all would be too scummy.

But no one does that little "hm?" with a clean conscience.

Like, what?

[Oxy]

I will apologize in post game if I'm wrong,

but why are you so upset when a) I'm the only one voting you, and b) other scum reads don't perturb you?

Is it because you think it's unfair for me to correctly scum read you for a bad reason?

[Oxy]

I think death tunnel is going overboard.

I'm going to continue to scum read you, but I'm not going to clog up the thread getting into a fight with you, or spamming the threat with "lol duck is scum VOTE NAOW"

And if you're town, I'm sure you'll show me that to the point where I have no choice but to reevaluate

That said, I think you're caught scum, and no amount of ad homs is going to change that ;P

[Oxy]

Just read Mutantdevle's ISO

Somewhat hesitant because the hydra seems pretty confident here

but this is town. There are a few posts that I just don't see coming from scum.

[Oxy]

oxy, sando
momonen, the worst, CJ
NM, Pintu, pisskop
Ico, nm, mutant
alonzo

reads atm

Where did you actually mean to put NM, and what was the train of thought that led to him being mentioned twice? I'll take as much detail on part two as you'll give me.

[Oxy]

@alonzo yeah I'm a bit of a sheep. If I'm confidently town reading someone

and they have a good reason to confidently scum read someone else who I'm not confidently reading,

sheeping is a good option.

[Oxy]

@alonzo
I don't understand.
You're saying that if you used my metric for voting the worst, you would have voted for the worst 15+ times by now

->Thus, I shouldn't trust the hydra.

I'm missing the connection between line 1 and line 2.

[Oxy]

@alonzo
I don't understand.
You're saying that if you used my metric for voting the worst, you would have voted for the worst 15+ times by now

->Thus, I shouldn't trust the hydra.

I'm missing the connection between line 1 and line 2.

You seem to have higher tolerances for certain types of play, consider them Acceptable or Even townread them. -You want to death tunnel the duck for a RT reaction to a post of yours from 2-3 hundred posts ago. Thats your stance on a scumread I was pushing also for many RT reactions.

But honestly If Worst is a 7/10 D1 scumread for me, The hydra is at an 8.5 for frequent realtime slighting of Many slots. Thats my point.

So yeah my tolerance for the duck is obviously akin or greater than yours, but I only understand your trust of the hydra by how nice and polite they are when reaffirming you as their buddy.

ah, yeah, I dunno. I was pretty confident in my fumuki read.

And they both are doing this "my reads are scripture, LOL" playstyle, but there seem to be a lot of people who do that as town. It looks pretty darn effective

and I guess the fact that they seem to have independently come to similar reads as me, and in some cases have straight followed my read is rather flattering ;P

But there are a number of slots that one could argue are trying to pocketing me, and their slot isn't that high on that list?

Like I was just told I'm melt-in-their-mouth town, and not gonna lie, it got me a little excited.

But mainly, I think you're mischaracterizing the bar for a reaction like that to make someone lock scum. That was pretty much as good as caught scum gets, boys.

[Oxy]

Pedit *remebers to tone it down, passes it of as a flippant remark.

It's generally considered gracious to accept apologies given over minor slights, mate.

[Oxy]

Hey, mutant, let's give intent to hammer together because I'm at the same point

[Oxy]

oh, I guess I'm more at the point where if Icon doesn't show me town

I'm happy with that lynch

rather than hydra needing to prove scum

[Oxy]

good!

[Oxy]

Hi, NM!

Can you explain your MutantDevle read? 5 words or less, I don't have time to read one of your walls.

[Oxy]

VOTE: Iconeum L-2 again

[Oxy]

lolol

[Oxy]

i am still here. not really feeling too well today, but i can offer that if ico flips town mutant and alonzo are spewed wolf.

I'm going with Alonzo as second most scummy regardless and most likely partner. What part of mutant says him being on Ico!town is particularly bad?

he never mentions ico in his iso but suddenly wants to hammer? thats always wolf motivated.

Ico is kind of all over mutant's ISO, and has always been a null - scum read for him.

I think hydra vs. mutant is probably tvt, and probably never svs.

[Oxy]

I guess I would be at a town read for him, then?

[Oxy]

Maybe.

I think its telling that a single/ couple of posts could reveal so much.

The worst is always gonna be a horrible Iso tho huh...

Il not tiptoe around the bush, I think you and I should lead that wagon on the duck meantime

Telling of what, exactly?

I'm still game to lynch the worst today, but I like where my vote is right this second.

[Oxy]

With 5 days left, I think the active lurker is the more +ev wagon to be on right now.

Plenty of time to switch to the duck if Iconeum does start to reek of town.

[Oxy]

That would be L-1

[Oxy]

I KNOW somehow my dumb duckling ass is important??

Ceejay what are your thoughts on the game? Something interesting would be rad. I'll keep asking. :3

This was the worst's soft claim.

[Oxy]

The duckling was clearly killed for being a PR. How can his kill possibly say anything about the number of wolves on a wagon?

[Oxy]

My reads: mutant is still scum from my point of view, and the worst being the nightkill almost confirms this read.

night kill was probably because of the soft.

I think im sheeping Pin today

[Oxy]

can confirm momos scumreads are at 25% or less if that helps?

I KNOW somehow my dumb duckling ass is important??

Ceejay what are your thoughts on the game? Something interesting would be rad. I'll keep asking. :3

This was the worst's soft claim.

When did you find this?

yesterday before i said he scum slipped

[Oxy]

yesterday = D1

[Oxy]

But no the reason I asked was It looks like a copy and paste from scumchat.

Please explain this in detail.

[Oxy]

Also seems strange you never mentioned his softclaim as part of your reasons to vote him yesterday.

It's strange that I don't mention soft claims????

I was trying to do my part to show that he was mislynchable so that maybe scum would try to get into a cc fight with him on day 2 rather than nk for the soft.

And my "I respectfully disagree with you all" was me throwing shade at all ya'll town for not lending a helping hand.

[Oxy]

Just seemed a strange point of entry Into D2 IMO.

Momomen, et. al. started D2 spamming about how the night kill means blah blah blah. I was concentrating on things other than this game, but I wanted to clear that up so that ya'll could have meaningful conversations.

Why would this ever be strange?

[Oxy]

I keep my Paranoia in overdrive when I re read mafia.

Why sheep Pintu?

This your way of commending him for his efforts to rally the troops?

Right now this game looks like a shit show, and I'm not sure where my reads are or what to think about who was on/off the Ico wagon

Pinturicchio is my tether in this storm.

[Oxy]

You all need to learn to play nice with one another.

The insults have been cringe worthy all game.

[Oxy]

You all need to learn to play nice with one another.

The insults have been cringe worthy all game.

Scum are going to take advantage of bad play, it needs to be called out.

I was trying to do my part to show that he was mislynchable so that maybe scum would try to get into a cc fight with him on day 2 rather than nk for the soft.

Now onto other things, our little tête-à-tête regarding my TR on duckling happened post soft-claim, and based on the above you noticed the soft-claim, why get into an argument for me TRing him?

I hadn't noticed it by that point, actually.

[Oxy]

I agree this looks like tvt because even I don't want to read it

but you're super wrong about my town range

[Oxy]

If you're saying that I need to take a side, then lol.

Alonzo, you're probably town, but your style this game is massively anti-town

[Oxy]

Oxy is pinging me for being "reasonable but not contributing", I haven't ISOd and done a number crunch or anything, but Oxy is striking me as spending most of his time basically telling others how to play the game ("oh be nice guys") type of posts without actually contributing to the hunt in any meaningful way.

Thoughts?

Yeah, this is accurate. I have 0 to add to alonzo v sanso v quick or whatever the "sides" are atm

[Oxy]

im down with that town block

[Oxy]

I was considering you could be Town until I read the red.. Then it kinda spoiled it for me.

Yeah, this is accurate.

Too funny

Iunno if it's a scumtell or not, I mean it'd made you the manipulator type of scum, and I think there's zero chance we don't have a lurker-scum with us at the moment, just a feeling I've been having.

are you saying that because I posted directly after Quick's post that I was responding to him?

[Oxy]

who is pk?

VOTE: Ceejay

[Oxy]

ummm I will red today.

Day off.

oh this guy? yeah this guy is scum

[Oxy]

he popped in and wrote good stuff about a few posts

and then when he realized town was holding one another's.. hands, he dropped back into shadows.

[Oxy]

Glad to see something more progressive than back and forthing is happening.

VOTE: mutantdevle

I'll be more cooperative with everyone if this guy gets lynched today. Now lemme lurk in peace.

Uh, can you explain the last sentence? Point me to posts if it references something I missed.

[Oxy]

VOTE: pisskop

[Oxy]

I'll be more cooperative with everyone if this guy gets lynched today

. Now lemme lurk in peace.

why is your cooperation based on him being the lynch, exactly?

[Oxy]

that said, the "now lemme lurk in peace." is probably coming from town!ceejay here

[Oxy]

[Oxy]

Town
Oxy
pinturicchio
Alonzo
Quick
ceejayvinoya
Sando
MOMOMEN


Not town
mutantdevle
randomidget
pisskop
Not_Mafia

My guess for team: random + pisskop

If we're wrong on someone in the town bloc: momomen

[Oxy]

My God, it's like you are Obv!Scum at this point... IDK why it's just me and Alonzo SRing you at this point, honestly.

Town tend to ask about things they don't understand instead of arrogantly dismissing it...

this is more personality indicative, or indicative of your current relationship with him. Def NAI, though. Stop scum reading town bloc

[Oxy]

My God, it's like you are Obv!Scum at this point... IDK why it's just me and Alonzo SRing you at this point, honestly.

Town tend to ask about things they don't understand instead of arrogantly dismissing it...

this is more personality indicative, or indicative of your current relationship with him. Def NAI, though. Stop scum reading town bloc

I think you missed the last line there???

You're saying that him not asking you about - whatever - is a reason to scum read him. I'm saying it's not.

Is that an accurate representation?

[Oxy]

err? what?

[Oxy]

If you have something to say, say it. This whole making walls out of large quotes with a bullshit vague ass statement is part of what makes you so anti town.

[Oxy]

I'm on board with a mutant lynch. Pin?

[Oxy]

As I said earlier, I was only the worst's suspect at the start of the day. I would probably say he was town leaning me by the end of it; at the very least he was null reading me. Now tell me, why, as scum, would I choose to kill someone who I had succesfully changed their read of me, or at the very least, made them reconsider it? Furthermore, what makes you think I would be the one to dictate the kill? You know me. At least, you claim to. Do you honestly take me for the kind of player that would selfishly want my team to spend a kill eliminating someone that threatens me and me alone? And if your argument is yes, that I would do that, then why on earth would I be killing the worst and not someone else more strongly pushing me such as MOMOMEN?

This assumes way too much about the worst's reads. It potentially spews any other scum reads the worst has as town, but at minimum mutantdevle should have considered that the worst has other reads that could have been taken into account when making an nk decision.

Also, mutant basically just confirmed that he should have seen the worst's soft.

So why didn't you see the worst's soft? Do your soft-identifying skills diminish when you are town?

[Oxy]

i preemptively answered your question in 1762. I think he has good scum equity.

[Oxy]

Oh, my bad.

I think your instincts are on point. Let's get more input from those 4, and then choose the lynch. If we had to lynch this second, i'd be fine with a mutant lynch.

[Oxy]

This assumes way too much about the worst's reads. It potentially spews any other scum reads the worst has as town, but at minimum mutantdevle should have considered that the worst has other reads that could have been taken into account when making an nk decision.

Also, mutant basically just confirmed that he should have seen the worst's soft.

So why didn't you see the worst's soft? Do your soft-identifying skills diminish when you are town?

Personally, I think you are assuming more when you claim he was properly scum reading me. I mean, these were the lest 2 posts of his that mentioned me (from a simple CTRL+F)...

Is Piss by virtue of a Korina read?
or did you find his opening towny?

Also for the record I'm uncomfortable TRing Pint but Oxy/Mutant are honestly probtown

pedit: good post...he refuses to do anything townie ://

devle <3
catch up and tell me what you think of pinguricchio

Take this as you will.

Though just sayin', he literally fucking says it.

But I suppose the start of the game where he was suspicious of me must be his more accurate reads than what he says here. And I would totally kill him for tarnishing my good ole' townie imposed name.

And, I don't know about you, but I find I don't need to PR hunt when I'm town ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I PR hunt as scum, not as town.

Honestly, it's becoming a little frustrating how you're making this accusation against me when you're not even looking at the facts. ('you' is a synonym for Oxy and Pintu here) I'd also like to think I'm more inteligent than basing a night kill off of how someone

used

to read me.

No, your argument asks why pintu would assume that you led the night kill. Which then would assume that the other members of your hypothetical mafia team would have no reason to kill the worst. Why did you assume that the hypothetical mafia team that pintu placed you in would have no reasons to kill the worst, other than his read on you?

The worst's actual reads don't really affect why I think this is scummy from you. Additionally, you knowing that the worst was town reading you, and making the assumption about a lack of motivation for other partners to kill the worst, probably spews that you didn't want to kill him.

This makes two worlds - one where he was killed for being a pr, and one where you argued not to kill him because he town read you, more likely.

I'm still living in the world where he was killed for being a pr, but I think the assumptions you made in your narrative are super weird coming from town.

This, plus the number of town reads I have, makes your scum equity very high.

[Oxy]

yes, but how does responding to that with, "that theory is wrong because I wouldn't have directed the night kill based solely on how a person was reading me, and without regards to my team mates.

Which implies that the worst didn't scum read your hypothetical partners. Which is a really weird assumption to make as town.

[Oxy]

@mutantdevle

yes, but how does responding to that with, "that theory is wrong because I wouldn't have directed the night kill based solely on how a person was reading me, and without regards to my team mates" make sense?

It implies that the worst didn't scum read your hypothetical partners. Which is a really weird assumption to make as town.

ebwop

[Oxy]

All I've done here, is assumed the most likely scenario - which is my general approach to mafia and even life and I don't really see why that's not a shared attitude. I don't get why this is so sus and it honestly feels like you're reaching.

We'll have to agree to disagree, then =/ I think it was a scummy assumption to make.

And I'm pretty confident pintu is town, so I'm not too worried about him misrepresenting TW's reads, or w/e.

[Oxy]

b) Just ignore the hider today and hope for two inno's tomorrow

this is my choice.

[Oxy]

All I've done here, is assumed the most likely scenario - which is my general approach to mafia and even life and I don't really see why that's not a shared attitude. I don't get why this is so sus and it honestly feels like you're reaching.

We'll have to agree to disagree, then =/ I think it was a scummy assumption to make.

And I'm pretty confident pintu is town, so I'm not too worried about him misrepresenting TW's reads, or w/e.

Let's negotiate TRs?

sure. what's on the table?

[Oxy]

We'll have to agree to disagree, then =/ I think it was a scummy assumption to make.

Yeah, but

why?

I assumed what was most probable.

Why

is that scummy?

To answer your question, and in addition to other reasons I have noted, it's a wierd assumption because you don't need to make

any

assumption as town to defend against this. You just point out the soft claim or his read on you.

And I don't want to continue arguing it because I've made my argument for people who might actually /vote mutantdevle, and you are not one of those people.

[Oxy]

All I've done here, is assumed the most likely scenario - which is my general approach to mafia and even life and I don't really see why that's not a shared attitude. I don't get why this is so sus and it honestly feels like you're reaching.

We'll have to agree to disagree, then =/ I think it was a scummy assumption to make.

And I'm pretty confident pintu is town, so I'm not too worried about him misrepresenting TW's reads, or w/e.

Let's negotiate TRs?

sure. what's on the table?

I want to know what you think of piss. This is not strictly a TR of mine, but I figured you were open to talking so I'd like your thoughts on that slot.

I have little to no read on pisskop. I know he has posted next to nothing, but I can't remember what he has talked about. I need more from him, and that's why pin and I are voting him.

What did you see from him that you liked?

[Oxy]

Do you honestly take me for the kind of player that would selfishly want my team to spend a kill eliminating someone that threatens me and

me alone?

@Sando I think he's referring to this assumption in bold.

But again, this point was made because Pintu was accusing specifically me for killing the worst for scum reading me. He never mentioned the worst scum reading anyone else in my team, so I made the same assumption that no one else was involved.

@sando This basically sums up the point of contention. I believe it's a weird assumption for town to make when presenting a defense, he obviously doesn't.

[Oxy]

Had nothing to do with piss themself. Had everything to do with Korina... I can see two sides of the coin here on Korina... I think some of the things he did was pretty Townie, but then we found out that was because they weren't on their meds and then I noted a change in their tone and then later they replaced out. So I am about where you are on that slot.

And I am thinking all the active posters are Town again.

Ah yeah... Korina was an early town read of mine, who then had one or two awful posts before replacing out. I decided to just call korina's input null, and sort pisskop instead. We ended up getting very little to sort, though =/

[Oxy]

VOTE: mutantdevle

[Oxy]

It's L-2 bro

[Oxy]

mhmm.

[Oxy]

I understood you, Pin. I think you were pretty clear, and I agree. It's not a townie thought process to immediately jump to "I wouldn't be in charge of the lynch!"

[Oxy]

Okay, mutant.

Assume Pintu is town, because I'm pretty confident in that read.

How does that change your reads?

[Oxy]

This is sort of weird. We're voting on town bloc boys ;P

Ok let's go

VOTE: Ceejay

[Oxy]

Ya but I'm also down for hearing what they've all got to say in a post or perish type of way.

What is the point of NM if he doesn't even make jokes?

[Oxy]

sorry that was @alonso.

Fair enough, Pin.

We have plenty of time, and town dysfunction is killing this game. So as long as we're being productive, I'm with ya.

[Oxy]

@alonzo not sure what you want. Pisskop, NM, and Ceejay are all in need of prods.

[Oxy]

TBH, I'm pretty game with lynching the lurkers. thoughts, pintubro?

[Oxy]

@pin I'm with you on getting information, but the more I think about the case on mutant, the more I think we could be wrong.

I'm kind of liking the randomidget lynch today.

[Oxy]

Pisskop hasn't posted in 6 days.

Are we still playing, or?

[Oxy]

The VC was edited in after Quick's post.

I'm not knocking our mod. I'm just asking if we're still playing, or if we're all ready to just pack this in.

[Oxy]

@mod I'd like for you to prod random and pisskop. Thanks, mate!

[Oxy]

what are you even talking about?

In what world are we no lynching?

[Oxy]

Quick, you have a few games with cj ya?

[Oxy]

you have had*

[Oxy]

@quick do you think you have a handle on how his scum game differs from his town game?

[Oxy]

CJ doesn't seem confused the person in the game most familiar with him is pushing him hard, thats a thing

this is good point!

[Oxy]

I believe quick's read, and pinturicchio's intentions are true.

Let's lynch Vivi!

[Oxy]

sorry sando, it was just too good.

[Oxy]

I think it's foolhardy to completely dismiss Quick.

I think this particular read is a good one to sheep Quick on.

I was already okay with a vivi lynch because poe.

I'm even more okay with it now.