Mini Normal 2030: Day 8

[Light Ethos]

VOTE: profii

That dog is way too adorable.
@Manatee why the self-vote?

[Light Ethos]

I'm not Crimson, but I feel like expecting Crimson to answer that question before Manatee gives a response would defeat the purpose of Crimson pushing Manatee in the first place.

[Light Ethos]

Still in the midst of reading what happened yesterday evening, but so far I'm leaning town on FlavorLeaf for the emphatic, well-substantiated defense halfway through the thread. Scum would do this too, but my gut tells me it's town. I also town-read Naomi-Tan for Post #95. I have Saudade as town-lean for Post #199.

I lean scum on Krazy for fishing for power-roles in the Neighborhood chat according to Dough and Crimson. I don't see how that would be more beneficial for town to know than for mafia to know, and Neighbors aren't any more likely to be town than scum unless the Mod decides that they are. Maybe it really was just an attempt to break the ice, as Krazy claims. I don't think that question is a good way to go about breaking the ice. There is also asymmetry between joking about asking if someone is a power role and joking about asking if someone is mafia. Nobody is going to answer yes to the second question. It's unlikely, but there is a nonzero chance of someone answering yes to the first. This really rubs me the wrong way.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Krazy

Full-disclosure: I am still somewhat new to Mafia, so I may have misinterpreted the interactions I linked.

[Light Ethos]

So far I think that you and Naomi just had a miscommunication, she misunderstood your interaction with me.
I could be wrong but she didn't ping me so far

This is my take on that too.

[Light Ethos]

I'm not Crimson, but I feel like expecting Crimson to answer that question before Manatee gives a response would defeat the purpose of Crimson pushing Manatee in the first place.

scummiest post

VOTE: light ethos

I'm sure you have a reason for saying that this is the scummiest post, but I'd like to know what it is. I don't see how this can be construed as alignment indicative either way.

[Light Ethos]

@Sashaddin: Can you explain your reasoning behind putting profii as green? His vote on me is for not creating conflict and for not going after people, yet he has also said very little.
Then there is this:

I bet Krazy is scum this time

Ding ding

in the context of voting me. He has Krazy down as scum but leaves his vote on me. When profii posted this, my vote was on Krazy.
@profii: Does that mean that you have Krazy and I down as scum team?

So far I think that you and Naomi just had a miscommunication, she misunderstood your interaction with me.
I could be wrong but she didn't ping me so far

This is my take on that too.

conflict = townier...

Conflict for conflict's sake isn't pro-town. Flavor and Naomi went after each other across multiple back and forth posts. I think both of them are town, and I didn't want them to waste more time attacking each other when there are 11 other players in the game.

I like Post #315 and Post #321. I won't green Krazy based on these posts, but it's enough to unvote.

UNVOTE: Krazy
VOTE: profii

[Light Ethos]

I won't green Krazy based on these posts, but it's enough to unvote.

UNVOTE: Krazy

Thank you for the answer. Why is 315 horrendous?
I'm more suspicious of you, profii than I am of Krazy. That does not mean that I think Krazy is town. I'll do a meta read on you when I get more time (Saturday morning) to see if this is just how you play.

[Light Ethos]

The townread on me with no evidence is more suggestive of his early game pattern of prioritizing townreads over scumreads. While he has scumreads now, he starts off with a more quick townreads which actually strikes me as a touch scummy.

weird scumread

I do disagree with this part of Krazy's Post #315, but I don't find that single piece to be anywhere near enough to make the entire post horrendous. The middle piece of analysis about Saudade being a safe push was what I liked about it, not the piece you quoted. And again, I'd like to clarify that I don't have Krazy down as town-leaning either.

@profii: Two more questions for you: Since you have us down as a scum team, what convinces you that I'm scummier than Krazy?
You say that you're sorting lurkers. What pings you most about me as compared to the others with low post counts?

@Crimson: From Post #346, you think Dough vs. saudade is town v. town. What do you think of Flavor Leaf v. Naomi-Tan?

[Light Ethos]

I'm not Crimson, but I feel like expecting Crimson to answer that question before Manatee gives a response would defeat the purpose of Crimson pushing Manatee in the first place.

scummiest post

VOTE: light ethos

fake involvement

Do you disagree with what I said in the quoted post? Again, I don't see how that statement is alignment indicative either way. I commented to say that in general, I don't believe that these types of preemptive questions are helpful. Crimson was trying to get some pressure on a player he knew. You asked him why. He gives a veiled answer about him being difficult to read. This should be enough back and forth until manatee responds. Instead, Frank comes in and wants more detail in finding out why manatee is being pressured.

My post 41 asserts that Frank's question defeats Crimson's purpose. I don't think there is anything wrong with Manatee receiving pressure at that point, and I think page 2 is a bit too early for players to have reason to undermine other players' pressure. I'm glad I reread this section however, as it might point to saudade's question about why you voted for me over Frank. You and Frank were on the same side at this point early on in the game.

[Light Ethos]

what convinces you that I'm scummier than Krazy?

bit presumptuous

Your vote is on me and not on Krazy. It's a reasonable assumption for me to think that you find me the scummier of your proposed scum team. (Unless your response means that you just think that I'm a bit presumptuous in general. That's the problem with only posting several word responses. It isn't easy to tell what you fully mean.)

[Light Ethos]

@Krazy: I'll ask you the same question I asked Crimson. How did you read Naomi-Tan vs. Flavor Leaf?

[Light Ethos]

To be more transparent: my vote on profii was not about the post restriction. (I didn't even pick up on the post restriction as more than stylistic choice until Krazy brought it up. I thought post restrictions in roles wouldn't be a Normal game thing, but I am new here.) It was for a combination of things:
1. He had Krazy down as scum but decided to vote me instead.
2. His reason for marking me as scum was my low post count and limited involvement when the same could be said about other players, AND he voted me without substantiating why I was the worst of the bunch beyond a quote from me when we were still arguably in RVS.

My vote stayed on profii because he didn't seem to pay much mind to the possibility of Frank being scum, making it seem as though profii was arbitrarily sorting between low post count people to find safe, easy Day 1 targets.

Since then, he answered my questions well, especially given the post restriction. He's actively contributing to the conversation in ways that are productive. Even without the vote on Frank, Post #455 would have been enough for me to unvote.

UNVOTE: profii

I'll look into Frank's ISO later today.

[Light Ethos]

@Crimson: From Post #346, you think Dough vs. saudade is town v. town. What do you think of Flavor Leaf v. Naomi-Tan?

@Crimson: I think you missed this while you were away, so I'll ask again.

[Light Ethos]

UNVOTE:
I wanna reevaluate who I think is the most red leaning once I re-read.

I am interested in seeing the result of this.

In comparing the ISO of Frank with that of the worst, the worst lives up to his name. the worst has put no effort into the game and is at best, content to have others gamesolve for him, or at worst, content to let the day trickle away and end up letting mafia win. In comparison, Frank has at least posted some game-advancing content.

click on his iso
notice almost no game related content
hes just cruising through this day making jokes
has no intention to solve the game
rope him rope him

^ giving credit where credit is due. My vote stays here until the worst changes gears unless someone else does something particularly egregious.

VOTE: the worst

[Light Ethos]

Ok caught up.

VOTE: manatee

Let’s hear some stuff.

My scum reads atm atm/Krazy/flavor

People I’d Pl profli and the worst

Town is frank, Naomi, and I think ethos.

Not sure about the rest.

I think this is a good vote too. To complete the trifecta, what happened to Parrot?

[Light Ethos]

So after all of that time saying you're going to go through this and find who pings red the most, and you come up with me.
Again, you misunderstood Post 41. That post is no defense of Crimson. You read through my ISO, so your attack on me should probably include a discussion of the main point of Post 418. Substantiate your claim that those posts defend Crimson.

The reason I keep asking Crimson about Naomi-Tan vs. Flavor Leaf is because Crimson hasn't done much of anything other than tunnel on Manatee. For a while the back and forth between you and Flavor Leaf was a significant portion of the game, and he's one of the few who hasn't commented on it.

Additionally, the reason why 457 mentions Frank specifically is because at the time that profii had his vote on me, Flavor Leaf was urging a vote on Frank and saudade observed that Frank's ISO and mine looked similar at the time. I mentioned Frank because profii was deliberately avoiding the active train while voting me for largely the same reasons. My mention of Frank had nothing to do with Crimson, and if you notice, I never voted for Frank.

Final comment on this: your vote me comes down to "here's a thing. These two people are connected." I think this post shows that we are not connected. Despite that, two people being connected is not a viable reason to think that someone is scum. If you're going to say someone is scum, give a reason for it.

If this doesn't satisfy you, we can go into it more. I'm disappointed that your return to the thread lacks analysis of why your final choice is the scummiest.

[Light Ethos]

I need to look into Light Ethos. But don't have the time right now for a big psot

It looks like you took a shortcut here. profii is pushing me at the time of this post. You then got busy and said that you would come back later looking for the scummiest person.

UNVOTE:
I wanna reevaluate who I think is the most red leaning once I re-read.

You now come back voting me because you allege that I'm connected to someone. This feels like shoddy detective work. Where is your analysis of the other things that have happened since then? I'm not expecting you to come back, reread everything, and have a full response on all that happened immediately. However, I do expect you to have considered these things before choosing someone to vote for. What you did does not strike me as town.

[Light Ethos]

You saw that you were mentioned, read Naomi's post, and responded with a 5 paragraph response in 21 minutes? Hot damn

I wasn't being disingenuous when I said this earlier:

UNVOTE:
I wanna reevaluate who I think is the most red leaning once I re-read.

I am interested in seeing the result of this.

In all seriousness, I think it is important to clarify my intent when people misunderstand it. If they have my intent right and choose to go after me for it anyway, that's one thing. That isn't what happened here though.

[Light Ethos]

Mechanics which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
Post Restrictions (other than those included in the ruleset, such as "No quoting your Role PM").

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game

he's trolling fam

Mechanics which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
Post Restrictions (other than those included in the ruleset, such as "No quoting your Role PM").

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game

he's trolling fam

Interesting.

VOTE: profli

That's where this comment came from:

To be more transparent: my vote on profii was not about the post restriction. (I didn't even pick up on the post restriction as more than stylistic choice until Krazy brought it up. I thought post restrictions in roles wouldn't be a Normal game thing, but I am new here.)

I read that on the wiki before the post, but I wasn't sure if it might have been out of date. He's been contributing though, so I didn't think it was enough reason to vote for him even if he is just trolling us.

[Light Ethos]

@Naomi: Thank you for the read list.

I would like you to answer my pushback. Please substantiate your claim that my Post 41 and Post 418 support Crimson. I don't trust Crimson any more than you do, and I believe that your case against me falls apart if you can't substantiate it.

Also a question for you since many people have you down as town: how do you feel about a Day 1 policy lynch? Your comments seem like you're against it, but I'd like to hear what you have to say about it. I'm still leaning toward you being town, but your quickness to cast a vote before you even finished rereading the thread does not feel town motivated. If I'm wrong about leaning town on you, it's because I put too much weight on my perception of your interaction with Flavor Leaf as being town vs. town.

[Light Ethos]

About Naomi-Tan's read list:

I agree with your assessment of Crimson, Flavor Leaf, Frank, Parrot, Manatee, and saudade.

I have more questions for you:

Why do you find me more suspicious than Crimson if your gripe with me is being "safe" and being connected to Crimson? It seems that your gripe with Crimson is that he's being safe in pushing and tunneling on someone who hasn't posted in a few days. Shouldn't you logically then go after the source of the problem?

Why do you think that Doughboy is bad town? I can see him being town. What makes him bad to you?
What is your take on the worst: Are you leaning toward frustrated town just like saudade? How do you reconcile his lack of interest in the game? I ask these things because that's where my vote is, and that's where your frustrated town saudade's vote is.

You express disdain for votes you deem safe. If you don't want a safe vote, what are you looking for instead? Separately, how do you propose to put pressure on players who aren't contributing?

[Light Ethos]

@Naomi: Thank you for the read list.

I would like you to answer my pushback. Please substantiate your claim that my Post 41 and Post 418 support Crimson. I don't trust Crimson any more than you do, and I believe that your case against me falls apart if you can't substantiate it.

Also a question for you since many people have you down as town: how do you feel about a Day 1 policy lynch? Your comments seem like you're against it, but I'd like to hear what you have to say about it. I'm still leaning toward you being town, but your quickness to cast a vote before you even finished rereading the thread does not feel town motivated. If I'm wrong about leaning town on you, it's because I put too much weight on my perception of your interaction with Flavor Leaf as being town vs. town.

41 Light Ethos: Mentions crimson but asks no questions or anything (this is the post that Profili called the worst post)

I say nothing about supporting on 41.

Crimson was trying to get some pressure on a player he knew. You asked him why. He gives a veiled answer about him being difficult to read. This should be enough back and forth until manatee responds. Instead, Frank comes in and wants more detail in finding out why manatee is being pressured.

My post 41 asserts that Frank's question defeats Crimson's purpose. I don't think there is anything wrong with Manatee receiving pressure at that point, and I think page 2 is a bit too early for players to have reason to undermine other players' pressure.

In this post (in the section highlighted) you defend his position saying there was nothing wrong with the pressure he was giving at that time in the game.

Thank you for the response. My contention is that I would have said these things regardless of which player was in Crimson's position or Manatee's position. In general, I do not believe that undermining another player's pressure on Page 2 is good for town. The reason why I said that you said that 41 supports Crimson is because the subject of 418 is the mindset behind 41. Thank you also for your position on PLs.

[Light Ethos]

Props to Krazy for doing the work. Thank you. Like Naomi-Tan, I hope Manatee comes back and explains what's going on. I don't have an objection about voting him out. The problem with just letting people who leave the thread for several days be is that scum can also safely leave these people be, and they don't help us solve the game. I'm content with where my vote is for now though, as Manatee should get prodded soon, and there is plenty of time left in the day.

[Light Ethos]

I realized that I missed one of Naomi-Tan's most important posts. Don't worry about answering the question about the worst, but please do answer the others when you get the chance.

[Light Ethos]

I'll post some thoughts since there seems to be a break in the action.

This is my first game outside Newbie queue, so I don't know how what number of scum members to start guessing from. To start out, I'll just take it as a logical extension of Newbie queue, adding a mafia player for each town player I add. If Newbie is 2 vs. 7, then I'll start by guessing that this is 4 vs. 9. In that context, if the Neighborhood has 3 people in it, assuming random assortment of players, the probability of at least one mafia member being in the Neighborhood is roughly 75%. Note that I calculated this with the additional information that I'm town and not in the neighborhood, so that 75% only holds from the perspective of any individual town member who is not a Neighbor. It is possible that none of the Neighbors are mafia, but that's unlikely. This is probably not news to anyone, but I think it's worth saying. About 25% of the time, all of them are town, 25% of the time, more than one is mafia, and about 50% of the time, exactly one is mafia. Again, this is all assuming that the setup doesn't assign members of the Neighborhood in a way that isn't random.

Shame on anyone if they have Naomi and me as a scum team.
Parrot and Manatee need to come back.
Flavor Leaf and Naomi look like an unlikely scum team.
Same with saudade and Doughboy.
Frank and Flavor Leaf don't seem likely to be together.
Neither do Crimson and Manatee despite their history.
It isn't easy to get a sense of connections between profii and others due to his low word count.

At the moment, my best guess after a brief review of the game is that the worst is scum with at least someone in { Manatee, Crimson, Parrot, Frank }. If I say that the worst is scum, which my vote indicates, and if I maintain that I am town, then at least one of those players is in that set is scum is roughly 78% of the time. Exactly one of them is scum about 50% of the time. More than one is scum about 28% of the time. I agree with Krazy's point about the difference between active lurking and hard lurking. My current vote, and the four players in that set have pinged me for one of those two things. They also don't show much conflict with the worst.

[Light Ethos]

Why do you find me more suspicious than Crimson if your gripe with me is being "safe" and being connected to Crimson? It seems that your gripe with Crimson is that he's being safe in pushing and tunneling on someone who hasn't posted in a few days. Shouldn't you logically then go after the source of the problem?

eh its about 50-50 I'm mostly freaked out with the votes and pressure trending nearly identically from the start of the game and I started from looking up you and theres the time thing where it looks like you retroactively applied a reason for voting, so... your kinda trending just for the frank post.

You express disdain for votes you deem safe. If you don't want a safe vote, what are you looking for instead? Separately, how do you propose to put pressure on players who aren't contributing?

Votes that are gonna contribution, start a discussion or a back and froth like I had early game. good reactions, back and frothing liking to get others to react to create a situation where peoples responses are going to better help us build a picture of who alignments are what. Safe alignments are all well and good but ones that are on the more vocal players that get reactions really help place people imo.

As for lurkers... well we can always hope they get prod/replaced so we can have active contributors but I'd rather focus on people who we can determine the alignment of more soundly and then use PoE to get rid of the lurkers based on what little they have done. thing it with active lurkers there isn't much to read back on in an iso and you can retrospec really easy

Thank you for the clear and transparent answers. Back to the town camp you go for me.

[Light Ethos]

Thank you. Then everyone disregard the numbers in Post 587.

[Light Ethos]

I'll post some thoughts since there seems to be a break in the action.

This is my first game outside Newbie queue, so I don't know how what number of scum members to start guessing from. To start out, I'll just take it as a logical extension of Newbie queue, adding a mafia player for each town player I add. If Newbie is 2 vs. 7, then I'll start by guessing that this is 4 vs. 9. In that context, if the Neighborhood has 3 people in it, assuming random assortment of players, the probability of at least one mafia member being in the Neighborhood is roughly 75%. Note that I calculated this with the additional information that I'm town and not in the neighborhood, so that 75% only holds from the perspective of any individual town member who is not a Neighbor. It is possible that none of the Neighbors are mafia, but that's unlikely. This is probably not news to anyone, but I think it's worth saying. About 25% of the time, all of them are town, 25% of the time, more than one is mafia, and about 50% of the time, exactly one is mafia. Again, this is all assuming that the setup doesn't assign members of the Neighborhood in a way that isn't random.

Shame on anyone if they have Naomi and me as a scum team.
Parrot and Manatee need to come back.
Flavor Leaf and Naomi look like an unlikely scum team.
Same with saudade and Doughboy.
Frank and Flavor Leaf don't seem likely to be together.
Neither do Crimson and Manatee despite their history.
It isn't easy to get a sense of connections between profii and others due to his low word count.

At the moment, my best guess after a brief review of the game is that the worst is scum with at least someone in { Manatee, Crimson, Parrot, Frank }. If I say that the worst is scum, which my vote indicates, and if I maintain that I am town, then at least one of those players is in that set is scum is roughly 78% of the time. Exactly one of them is scum about 50% of the time. More than one is scum about 28% of the time. I agree with Krazy's point about the difference between active lurking and hard lurking. My current vote, and the four players in that set have pinged me for one of those two things. They also don't show much conflict with the worst.

Editing this with a second post.
Updated assumptions to carry all the way through:
One town player is removed from the calculation because the reader knows that they are town.
It's 3 v. 10 as Krazy said.

For a 3 person Neighborhood assuming that the Neighborhood is randomly assigned:
0 are mafia: 38%
1 is mafia: 49%
More than 1 mafia: 13%

For the case that you have reason to believe that one person is scum and want to see if a partner is in a four-person set:
(For my case, I think the worst is scummy, and my set of lurkers with little to go off of is {Manatee, Crimson, and Parrot. I'll also add Frank because he's under pressure, and I could go either way on him.}
0 are mafia: 38%
1 is mafia: 51%
2 are mafia: 11%

For a four-person set with no other assumed scum:
0 are mafia: 25%
1 is mafia: 51%
More than 1 mafia: 24%

The takeaway I have from this is that it's unlikely that all of the members of that set are town, and from my perspective, none of them look town to me. However, it is incredibly unlikely that all scum are in that set. Each member in that set of four is a safe vote as Naomi-Tan put it. Of the people outside this group who could potentially be a member of a team with one of these people, the worst seems most likely to me. I'm comfortable leaving my vote where it is for now.

[Light Ethos]

I'm happy that work calmed down. Had to leave the site for a month during the brunt of busy season.

[Light Ethos]

sorry if this is just reeking of OMGUS but I literally can't stand people openwolfing while trying to mislynch me. one of my best strengths is splitting town pushing me from scum pushing me and LEthos is full of shit.

Oof. Tell me how you really feel. Looks like someone hates my play this game. I'm flipping town. I make no pretense of being having the game solved. You can clearly see that I'm new here. This is a learning experience for me.

Either way, I'm not intimidated by your anger. You haven't shown much of an interest in the game, and the moment you get some vote pressure, you snap off at the easiest target who is voting you. I'm going to work with the players I see town motivation from, and if you want to cast that off as being "buddyish as fuck", you're within your rights to. I was satisfied with profii's response to my vote, saudade gave solid reasons to put you up, and I lent my vote to him. I stand by that decision. If you see me running some stats during a break in posting as being "busyworky", again, you're free to. I don't think you've put much thought into the game, and I'm not reading town motivation into your actions.

Your response doesn't give me any reason to change my vote.

[Light Ethos]

I can appreciate a good Krazy vote right now.

I don’t think Krazy is scum however, but I see why people would think that, and I don’t find it scummy to vote there right now.

(Hint: I’m definitely wanting to see who votes Krazy)

(Second Hint: I’m definitely wanting to see who does what now after I gave that hint.)

can you vote Frank now

Looks like I misunderstood your intent then. At the time, saudade was pushing Frank, and I thought 302 was you arguing that there are better votes out there than Krazy and agreeing with saudade. No malicious intent on my part.

[Light Ethos]

{ Manatee, Crimson, Parrot, Frank }

shouldn't of mentioned safe vote.

Why? Your vote is on me. You dislike safe votes.

Okay so; this is obviously a readlist, why else select this random group of 4 players, so lets examine interactions

It isn't a read list of mafia players and should not be taken as such. These four players are, to use Krazy's words, hard lurking or active lurking. I do not feel comfortable ending the day before we hear more from them. You seem content to prevent them from receiving pressure, electing to let them get prodded or replaced. That's a fine viewpoint, but at least one of them is likely scum. If I were to make the claim that one of them is likely scum and not support it, you would be up in arms about it. That's what the math was for. I don't know which one or ones of them it is because they don't have a long enough paper trail, but I would be very surprised if all four of them are not.

Obviously Crimson and Light Ethos had been kinda in sync from the start as I mentioned where I got freaked out. I can see no push on that side at all

No, we haven't. You thought you saw something and looked for posts to support your confirmation bias.
Some important details that you missed: I incorrectly added Crimson to the Neighborhood that Krazy and Doughboy were talking about because I misunderstood Crimson's interaction with them. I care about being factually correct, so if Crimson and I were in any kind of PT together, I definitely would have asked about that interaction before posting in this thread.
Second: I can't get the guy to answer a simple question about what his read on the interaction between you and Flavor Leaf. Surely, I could ping him in a PT to get him to crawl out of his hole and answer the question.
Third: I'm frustrated that Crimson is tunneling on someone who isn't here.

I don't trust Crimson any more than you do, and my lack of trust in Crimson came well before you came back to the thread and attacked me.
I have said nothing positive about Crimson in this entire thread. (Again, 41 and 418 are not specific to Crimson. These are positions I would hold in any game, regardless of which players were in those positions.)

Still, I'll let you do your analysis on my set of four players I want to hear more from:

Parrot has been lurking like a champ Light ethos has mentioned Parrot once before I played my crimson post just asking where they are,505 on 575after my post they say they agree with my read on them;

Pernicious Parrot: can't remember them at all, so obviously they need to be more active. I would rather have them make a big catch up post than be disappointed by like 1 comment somewhere in the future.

So that is the best we have for reasoning there in the red group.

Again, it isn't a red group, but continue. You're right here though. Parrot left without saying anything. We have a week left, and it's harder to find scum when players leave like this.

Manatee: beofre crazy's post they was agreeing with my read in 565 but then after crazy's post they changed. I'm pretty sure that, thats a natural progression for both alignments so NAI (reds have an excuse to kill a lurker if there green, if mana is red its undefendable anyway. Greens can see the meta and see that's how they play as red)

You misunderstood my reaction to your post. Before Krazy's meta read, did I think that Manatee's afk was alignment indicative? Not particularly. Would I have objections to voting him out? Absolutely not. He's been self-voting since the start of the thread and hasn't put any effort into the game. Krazy's meta read makes it even easier to see why there's a problem there.

Frank: So not really mentioned much at all (addressed once early on) not really given any reads on them but once again 575 to the rescue where they agree with my Null read in 565

I don't have a read on Frank. I said I would look into his ISO because there was a push on him, and I want to evaluate how much I agree with it. the worst's ISO looks bad enough to me that my vote is staying there until something changes. I don't see town motivation in his posts. That's important.

Looking at this from a Red!Light ethos lense we have; Distancing, Null=Red(if there green) or Kill red for Town cred for an inactive(If there on the same red team), Very safe with Krazys meta data, Null=red.

Interesting. If you take red!Light Ethos, then you immediately claim Crimson's inclusion as distancing. That requires you to know that there is red!Crimson; otherwise, why would red!Light Ethos want to distance himself from a townie? If Crimson flips red this game, or if I flip green, I don't think that looks good for you. Your vote on me is largely based on a connection you've created between Crimson and me. It is possible that Green!Naomi saw something and incorrectly went with it. However, there is a valid world in which Red!Naomi does the same thing for strategic reasons:

Red!Naomi on a scum team with Red!Crimson would have a hard time defending Crimson given the current state of the game. She would benefit from creating a thin connection between a town player and indefensible Crimson.
Red!Naomi then has two favorable outcomes: A town player that is engaged in the game can be killed off, allowing her to leave the lurking town players alive longer without any opportunity cost. Her buddy Red!Crimson has time to get back into the game and look like he's been doing something. She distances herself by putting fake pressure onto Crimson through a town proxy, meaning that when Red!Crimson flips red, she's still not an immediate suspect.

I will remember this if Crimson flips red this game, and if you and I are still both alive.
Again, those four players were not my list of red players, so it's incorrect for you to claim that I'm saying Null=Red.

Looking at it from a Green!Light ethos lense I have; More suspicious of crimson after doing an iso based on my push, Short on reds to make up the 4 red team he was metaing, Krazy's meta data is crazy good and tipped the null to red. PoE?

I dunno.. stretching for green reasoning for that pool of players.

Here is some green reasoning for that pool of players: town benefits from having all players contribute to the thread. It also benefits from transparent access to thought processes and motivation of all players in the game. When town players avoid the game, they give Mafia easy choices about who to allow to live until the end of the game. Lurkers likely will not be able to return bringing significant, credible pressure against surviving Mafia. Those four players, moreso Parrot, Manatee, and Crimson, have not been doing that. I'll say it again: those players are not automatically Mafia to me. However, I don't think this day should end before they come back and contribute their thoughts on what has happened so far.

[Light Ethos]

At the moment, my best guess after a brief review of the game is that the worst is scum with at least someone in { Manatee, Crimson, Parrot, Frank }. If I say that the worst is scum, which my vote indicates, and if I maintain that I am town, then at least one of those players is in that set is scum is roughly 78% of the time. Exactly one of them is scum about 50% of the time. More than one is scum about 28% of the time. I agree with Krazy's point about the difference between active lurking and hard lurking. My current vote, and the four players in that set have pinged me for one of those two things. They also don't show much conflict with the worst.

... I have no idea where your pulling these % from. IOA? you don't mention why there red just the stats (that I can't even work out how you got to)

I'm not too keen on 587 XD

I think I addressed this in my last post, but I'll say it again: the numbers support my claim that at least one of the players that hasn't been contributing is likely scum. Even if you ignore the unlikely possibility that all of the mafia players are in that set of players, it's still more likely than not that at least one of them is mafia. Note that what I just said is a claim. The math supports the claim. It looks like you're just tunneling me at this point because you ignored Post 592 where I explain this.

Do you really have no idea where I'm pulling the percentages from? I left the explicit assumptions for the calculation in my post. You could quickly do the math yourself and get a different answer if you disagree. You say that you can't work out how I got to these numbers, but I don't think you even tried to. However, it looks like you're just tunneled on me. IOA? No. The first part of this post explains that I'm not saying they're all red. I'm saying that it's unlikely that they are all green, and it's important that we hear from them to sort them out. The brief analysis comes in Post 592, where I use this information to argue that it's important that we hear from these people because it's unlikely that all of them are town.

I can be more explicit in the calculation if you want me to be. I updated the numbers for a 3 v. 10 setup in Post 592, which I'll leave the important part of below for convenience:

Updated assumptions to carry all the way through:
One town player is removed from the calculation because the reader knows that they are town.
It's 3 v. 10 as Krazy said.

For a 3 person Neighborhood assuming that the Neighborhood is randomly assigned:
0 are mafia: 38%
1 is mafia: 49%
More than 1 mafia: 13%

For the case that you have reason to believe that one person is scum and want to see if a partner is in a four-person set:
(For my case, I think the worst is scummy, and my set of lurkers with little to go off of is {Manatee, Crimson, and Parrot. I'll also add Frank because he's under pressure, and I could go either way on him.}
0 are mafia: 38%
1 is mafia: 51%
2 are mafia: 11%

For a four-person set with no other assumed scum:
0 are mafia: 25%
1 is mafia: 51%
More than 1 mafia: 24%

The takeaway I have from this is that it's unlikely that all of the members of that set are town, and from my perspective, none of them look town to me. However, it is incredibly unlikely that all scum are in that set. Each member in that set of four is a safe vote as Naomi-Tan put it. Of the people outside this group who could potentially be a member of a team with one of these people, the worst seems most likely to me. I'm comfortable leaving my vote where it is for now.

BEFORE I get into the calculation, let me explain what I meant in saying that none of them look town. That doesn't mean that they all look mafia to me. It simply means that none of them look town to me. Don't read more into that sentence than what I wrote.

Alright. We start by assuming that it's 3 v. 10.
I know that I'm town. You know that you're town, Naomi. Each town player knows that they, themselves are town. So of the remaining players that are unknown, 3 are mafia and 9 are town.

I'll skip the discussion of the Neighborhood because it's not guaranteed to be random, and as has since been pointed out, I don't necessarily know that it's 3 players.
If you have a set of four players that you can't identify because they're lurking or inactive, it can be helpful to look into some statistics on how safe you should feel with moving forward in the game without strongly considering the possibility that they are not all inconsequential to the game. To do that, I would want to know how likely it is that at least one of them is mafia.

We calculate these probabilities without replacement:
The probability that 0 of them are mafia is the same as the probability that all of them are town. There are 9 town players left after you exclude yourself, and there are 12 other players in the game.
Let X = the number of mafia players in the set of four players in question.
P(X=0) = 9*8*7*6/(12*11*10*9) is roughly 25%.

Now I want to see the probability that exactly one of them is mafia. You do the calculation in the same way with the added catch that there are four ways to put one mafia member into the set. 3 of the remaining players are mafia. I'll denote townies as O and mafia as X:
XOOO, OXOO, OOXO, OOOX.

P(X=1) = 4*[9*8*7*3/(12*11*10*9)] is roughly 51%. If you still don't understand this calculation, look into how to handle probability without replacement.

Finally, the probability that more than one of the four is mafia is simply the probability of all of the cases where P(X =/= 0) and P(X =/= 1).
That's just P(X>1) = 100% - 25% - 51% = 24%.

If you then are in the position that you think that someone is scum and want to know how safe you are to ignore a set of four players that haven't contributed much, then you're in the position of the second scenario of Post 592. It's the same calculation as what I did here, only in addition to removing a town player, we also remove a scum player so that the remaining player pool is 2 mafia and 9 town instead of 3 mafia and 9 town for the calculation I did above.

I'm confident that this calculation is correct for what it's attempting to illustrate: we shouldn't end the day without hearing more from the inactive players. It's not acceptable to be content with avoiding putting pressure on those players.

[Light Ethos]

I'm not too keen on 587 XD

One of the few things in this world that I strongly dislike is the Ex-fucking-D.

[Light Ethos]

Oops got prodded, gimme a bit to catch up.

Why have you logged on multiple times but not posted?

Here's a good question.

So after all of that time saying you're going to go through this and find who pings red the most, and you come up with me.
Again, you misunderstood Post 41. That post is no defense of Crimson. You read through my ISO, so your attack on me should probably include a discussion of the main point of Post 418. Substantiate your claim that those posts defend Crimson.

The reason I keep asking Crimson about Naomi-Tan vs. Flavor Leaf is because Crimson hasn't done much of anything other than tunnel on Manatee. For a while the back and forth between you and Flavor Leaf was a significant portion of the game, and he's one of the few who hasn't commented on it.

Additionally, the reason why 457 mentions Frank specifically is because at the time that profii had his vote on me, Flavor Leaf was urging a vote on Frank and saudade observed that Frank's ISO and mine looked similar at the time. I mentioned Frank because profii was deliberately avoiding the active train while voting me for largely the same reasons. My mention of Frank had nothing to do with Crimson, and if you notice, I never voted for Frank.

Final comment on this: your vote me comes down to "here's a thing. These two people are connected." I think this post shows that we are not connected. Despite that, two people being connected is not a viable reason to think that someone is scum. If you're going to say someone is scum, give a reason for it.

If this doesn't satisfy you, we can go into it more. I'm disappointed that your return to the thread lacks analysis of why your final choice is the scummiest.

This post is making it a lot harder to read light as either alignment.

Here's a post that doesn't answer the reasonable question that was asked.

[Light Ethos]

Since there is another break in posting:

@Manatee: Since you're back, what are your reads other than having me down as leaning scum?
@Flavor Leaf: Do you still find Naomi-Tan to be mafia? If so, who would one of her plausible partners be?

[Light Ethos]

I half think this is just a lot of fluff from Light, but it’s so much I haven’t read it completely enough to say that for sure.

The end of the second long post is only necessary to read if like Naomi, you can't see where the statistics came from. I probably should have used a spoiler tag.

If you want a condensed version of what I wrote, here is the TL;DR:

1. I don't think this day should end without us hearing from the people who haven't contributed to the thread much.
2. Naomi insists on establishing a link between Crimson and me, and it isn't a valid link. I gave reasons in Post 661 for why this link isn't valid:

No, we haven't. You thought you saw something and looked for posts to support your confirmation bias.
Some important details that you missed: I incorrectly added Crimson to the Neighborhood that Krazy and Doughboy were talking about because I misunderstood Crimson's interaction with them. I care about being factually correct, so if Crimson and I were in any kind of PT together, I definitely would have asked about that interaction before posting in this thread.
Second: I can't get the guy to answer a simple question about what his read on the interaction between you and Flavor Leaf. Surely, I could ping him in a PT to get him to crawl out of his hole and answer the question.
Third: I'm frustrated that Crimson is tunneling on someone who isn't here.

I also think this is worth reading, whether you agree with it or not:

Red!Naomi on a scum team with Red!Crimson would have a hard time defending Crimson given the current state of the game. She would benefit from creating a thin connection between a town player and indefensible Crimson.
Red!Naomi then has two favorable outcomes: A town player that is engaged in the game can be killed off, allowing her to leave the lurking town players alive longer without any opportunity cost. Her buddy Red!Crimson has time to get back into the game and look like he's been doing something. She distances herself by putting fake pressure onto Crimson through a town proxy, meaning that when Red!Crimson flips red, she's still not an immediate suspect.

So 3. There are valid strategic reasons for mafia to push on me instead of putting pressure on players that aren't active. I don't think this post should be too long to read.

[Light Ethos]

@Manatee: Why is your vote still on yourself?

[Light Ethos]

It’s just IioA

I made a claim that needed to be substantiated. I explicitly presented statistics that supported it. Saying that it's just IioA makes it seem like the information isn't important. I think the information was important. I haven't done any line by line ISO breakdown posts here yet. I'll get there.

I think one takeaway I'm getting from this game is that less effort is better. The more effort I put into making my thought process transparent, the more scummy you think I am. But like I said to the worst, this game is a learning experience.

[Light Ethos]

Oops got prodded, gimme a bit to catch up.

Why have you logged on multiple times but not posted?

@Manatee: Why is your vote still on yourself?

VOTE: Light Ethos

You disappeared for several days, were asked a reasonable question about what happened, and instead of answering it, you rush to vote someone without explaining yourself.
Earlier today, you said that you had a hard time sorting out whether I'm mafia or town. Suddenly, you switch to thinking that out of the two of us, Crimson is the one who is town, and I'm the one who is mafia. Reasons??

[Light Ethos]

@Manatee: town players miscast other town players as mafia often. That's part of what happens when you're playing a game with limited information. With that in mind, it's important to be transparent about your reasons for saying that someone is mafia. the worst and Naomi-Tan have been transparent in their reasons for voting me, and in Naomi-Tan's case, it seems like she's mostly just getting a bad feeling about my posts and sees a connection to another player she doesn't trust.

You should give your reasons for voting me, even if it's nothing better than just wagoning someone else's logic.

[Light Ethos]

I feel much better about my manate vote.

I agree with you. I still feel the same way about it as I did then:

Ok caught up.

VOTE: manatee

Let’s hear some stuff.

My scum reads atm atm/Krazy/flavor

People I’d Pl profli and the worst

Town is frank, Naomi, and I think ethos.

Not sure about the rest.

I think this is a good vote too. To complete the trifecta, what happened to Parrot?

I still think it's important that we hear from Parrot and Crimson again. I'd also like to hear from Frank again too.

[Light Ethos]

Since there is another break in posting:

@Manatee: Since you're back, what are your reads other than having me down as leaning scum?
@Flavor Leaf: Do you still find Naomi-Tan to be mafia? If so, who would one of her plausible partners be?

Both of you, when you get a chance, please do answer these.

[Light Ethos]

My bad @Flavor: posted this at the same time as you were writing your answer to me. Thank you.

[Light Ethos]

It’s just IioA

Every time I dip into Light Ethos to try and get the gist of his walls I get this impression and give up I have to be honest


If LE could make some bullet point key thoughts it would probably be good

Post 670.

[Light Ethos]

I'll start adding a TL;DR or using spoiler tags.

[Light Ethos]

@the worst: What makes Parrot worse than Manatee in your eyes? Separately, what makes me worse than Manatee?

[Light Ethos]

town : tw, Krazy, profii, sasha, dosage
town? : Flavor Leaf,

Parrot

, Naomi
not town : Doughboy, Light Ethos, Crimson97, FrankJaeger,

ManateeDude

@the worst: What makes Parrot worse than Manatee in your eyes? Separately, what makes me worse than Manatee?

:thnikogn:

OK WRT PARROT
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=77080
just finished this sucker in which he spammed iioa and refused to scumhunt so we lynched him
turns out that his playstyle is just not all that protown

policy lynching stinks but if we don't start getting red flips asap he's a good vig

If you don't think that Parrot is worse than Manatee, then why are you advocating a policy lynch on him instead of Manatee? Manatee has been equally unhelpful this game.

[Light Ethos]

@the worst: I'm not pretending to have an independent reason for voting you. saudade made a compelling argument as to why you were mafia, and I agreed with it. Since then, nothing you've done this game has shown clear town motivation to me. You even said that you're in survival mode Day 1. That's fine and all, but survival is much more important for a mafia player than a town player. You haven't seemed to have an active interest in the game other than taking pot shots at me when you get the chance to. That isn't pro town.

Post 701 reads to me that you looked into Parrot and saw that his playstyle isn't protown and that you're advocating him as a policy lynch. If I misinterpreted your post, I misinterpreted your post.

[Light Ethos]

you're not pushing for scum you just think i'm an imbecile

I don't think you're an imbecile. I do think you're scum. If you aren't, you certainly haven't done anything to make me think otherwise. Either way, as I said before, I want Parrot, Crimson, and Frank on record before the day ends. I also want Manatee to support his vote on me. Town benefits from being able to have a trail to connect players. The more players that are silent, the harder that gets, and the easier choices mafia has about who to let stay alive.

[Light Ethos]

you outed me as a tpr.

You put yourself in a hole by not seeming like you cared about anything other than making it to the next day. I do agree that it's reasonable to expect a fake claim there from mafia. I still want to hear from the people who have left.

[Light Ethos]

can we talk about LEthos openwolfing yet or

You've used this phrase a lot. What does it mean? I'm new around here.
UNVOTE: the worst

[Light Ethos]

pedit2: it's actually not even a MS term sorry. it means everything you're saying itt seems to be pushing a scum agenda.

Thank you for the answer. It's hard to say that my position about wanting to hear from all players so that no mafia get a free lurk on Day 1 is a position that helps mafia. You're free to disagree though.

Duck you have permission to lynch the manatee or frank, light is off the table

Thank you for the support.

[Light Ethos]

Manatee’s not scum.

Y’all scumfuck’s pushing on the animals.

I'd like to know how you can definitively say that Manatee isn't scum. He's a null read at best for me.
1. He has 12 posts in the thread. (NAI)
2. He disappeared for several days, refused to answer why he's come to the site since Wednesday several times, but hasn't posted here. (somewhat scummy not to answer this)
3. He jumps on a train on me without giving any explanation as to why. (not necessarily scummy but certainly not helpful to town)
4. He's voted for two people: himself and me and has offered no explanation for the self-vote or for jumping on the train on me. (again, not helpful)

I don't see how you can look at his short ISO and say that he's definitely town, which is what you are saying if you are certain that he's not scum. I'm not seeing town motivation from anything Manatee has done.

VOTE: Krazy

I’m coming in hard when I get home tonight. Get ready

Looking forward to seeing this.

[Light Ethos]

The Eevee Pikachu GIF is a really nice touch. Thank you for the read list. Also, thank you to Crimson for answering my question.

[Light Ethos]

Those political as hell reads, though

I’m beginning to feel I might be wrong based on the fact that that reads list just screams scum to me.

Political reads? I'm not disagreeing with you; I don't know what you mean by that and would like to.

[Light Ethos]

I think I'm fine to say that I haven't seen anyone do anything that screams scum to me in this thread. If I can recall correctly, the only people who definitively wanted a hammer to come out of their pushes were saudade wanting to hammer the worst and the worst wanting to hammer me. I don't think either of those pushes for a hammer were scum motivated. saudade wanted to push an experienced player to care more about the game than his own life. the worst just got upset and took the path of least resistance by taking his anger out on me, a newer player that had someone with town cred already casing me. Nothing screams scum there.

I can see a reasonable scenario in which Naomi's case on me has scum motivation, but I don't want to jump to the conclusion of shoving her as scum because of it. I don't know if my reaction to her case would be the same if it hadn't been about me, as I have much more information about what she's addressing than I would if it had been about another player who also had a low post count at the time she started.
More importantly though, I can't justify going after a player that's been putting in effort to at least give the appearance of doing something, when there are players that haven't even done that.

Yes, as Flavor said, it's possible for town players to lurk their way through Day 1. That isn't helpful though, and it's even less helpful when there are more than two such players in a game. As my maligned math post shows, the more players you have who fit that description, the harder it is to say that none of them are scum. If at least one of them is scum in the vast majority of games, and if their current actions show no town motivation, then it's hard for me to justify putting a lot of faith behind traces of a scum read I get from having a bad feeling about what an active player is doing without first pressing these other players into expressing actionable opinions on what's gone on in the game.

[Light Ethos]

VOTE: Krazy

I’m coming in hard when I get home tonight. Get ready

Was that back and forth exchange what you meant by coming in hard?
My takeaway from your side of the exchange is that:
1. You find Krazy to be scummy because he's claiming that some things that you see as NAI are scummy.
2. He gave a read list that attempted to gain some trust with you.

TL;DR for the rest of the post:
1. Nobody should be given a free pass to lurk through Day 1.
2. Day 1 seems like it would be the perfect time for scum to try to mislynch an active town player.

I'm also seeing a sense that from your perspective, Frank and Manatee can't be scum because they have received a lot of attention without posting, meaning that there must be some scum trying to hammer them. You're right that Manatee's play this game could just be bad play. I think it's fallacious to think that it can

only

be bad play. It's also very possible that it's bad play by a mafia member. It's strange to me that you so readily disregard that possibility.

With as unclear of a Day 1 this has been (at least from my perspective), I don't think we have the luxury of absolving either of them.

I also want to push back on the idea that scum always would want to preferentially push inactive players Day 1. While this is a certainly a strategy that I can see being used often, I don't think it's the optimal one.

Spoiler: Reasoning

In the end, mafia wins off of the errors that town players make, forced or unforced. Mafia needs to allow some town players to survive, but they likely want to avoid a WIFOM coinflip to decide the game. At least one of the players they allow to stay alive needs to have enough baggage that they look suspicious. Someone perfect to bring along is someone who lurked their way through Day 1. (I acknowledge that this is probably not as true for 1v1 scenarios.) I also think it's reasonable to assume that the players that avoid the game will be unable to form cases as strong as players who are active and attentive.

Day 1 seems like the perfect time to try to nudge a mislynch on someone who is active. The longer these players stay alive, the more time they have to try to solve the game. If they don't solve the game before they die, their post history becomes a valuable resource when they flip green. The longer they stay alive, the more likely it is that they will end up giving everyone the blueprint to the game before they die. Worse still, it will likely be riskier to kill them off during the day. If mafia goes for the player on Day 1 in a game as undecided as this one, they have plausible deniability by claiming to be a townie who was wrong about their read. We've all been there, right?

To me, the optimal scenario for mafia to push for a Day 1 kill on someone inactive is if it's a policy vote. That way, town gets minimal information about the vote, and every town player has a bit of blood on their hands. I think the only other time they want a Day 1 kill on an inactive player is if town gets too close to finding a scum team, not just an individual mafia player.

All of the above might have been my inexperience talking, but until I get more experience here, it is my opinion.

[Light Ethos]

I don’t like that post by Lighf.

I never urged a vote on Frank. That’s a misrep in the middle there or a mistake.

I’m just reading the LE posts now and he also said I deliberately avoided the active wagons - how he knows that from 2 post style I do not know but interesting

Not overly complicated. You made a choice not to jump on one of the wagons that was active at the time. The number of words in your posts is irrelevant to the choice you made to vote for me instead of voting for one of the wagons.

[Light Ethos]

Let’s rephrase

Why should I join the active wagons? Why can’t I find scum in my own way ?

You don't need to join an active wagon. I think you misinterpreted what I said in that post. My issue isn't that you weren't sheeping other people's logic. My issue was that you were voting me for largely the same reason as why saudade was suggesting a vote on Frank without justifying why I was the better choice.

[Light Ethos]

All good, mate. I didn't take offense to it. Since you're here and have seen Krazy's side of his case on Manatee, what do you think of Flavor Leaf's insistence that Manatee and Frank are town?

[Light Ethos]

FL -> last mention of Krazy was pointing out the colourful reads could come from scum, presume scum read

Krazy's read list came shortly after Flavor Leaf posted this:

VOTE: Krazy

I’m coming in hard when I get home tonight. Get ready

The read list and their discussion didn't seem to change his mind much.

[Light Ethos]

Alright, so I just learned that Naomi doesn't know how probability works. Did she really just try to tell me that if there are 3 red players in a game of 13 players, that 30% of the players are red? If you're going to write at me in a condescending tone about something factual, at least be correct. Yikes.

I'm flipping green this game. To all who read that exchange, if Crimson flips red, Naomi-Tan is a scum partner. There is no way that someone who is town puts that much effort into misrepresenting another player's ISO when there is plenty of town motivation for drawing activity out of the players who are not contributing to the game at all. I gave you an explicit post with numbers to support the opinion that it's important that we hear from those players before the game ends so that they have a paper trail. You misrepresent a post with labeled numbers on it to try to make your reachy case on me.

I'll go out and say red!Naomi, and I'm alright with everyone flipping me green first if it's necessary to be sure that I'm not just trying to get an active green killed early.

You're trying to pin me to Manatee and Crimson? Really? That's what you came up with? Not any of the other players' logic that I've been acting on? I was willing to take the brunt of the pressure for the vote on the worst because saudade made that vote and gave a compelling reason as to why others should press him into action. I've liked Doughboy's votes this game and specifically said that Manatee was also a good vote while I had my vote elsewhere. I've been frustrated at all of the inactive players, and that is where the vast majority of my frustration as been placed. My main challenge to you about your insistence that I am scum is that we can't be content to ignore the possibility that at least one of the inactive players is scum, and I have been insistent that we can't ignore all of those players.

You can't have it both ways, Naomi. Either I am scum or Crimson and Manatee are scum. There isn't a plausible world in which all three of us are scum.

[Light Ethos]

More on that is that the claim of hers flies in the face of her disdain for votes that are safe. In the end, with many days left, she retreats can to a safe vote. The hypocrisy is not a good look.

[Light Ethos]

Early bird guess based on wagon composition and early reads,

Assuming 3 scum, it’s Krazy, Sasha, and Light.

This one is much, much more reasonable if you're going to make a scum team with me in it. I don't have a problem with being mislynched tomorrow if there is consensus between both of you that I'm scum, but you have very different scum teams. I think my death will give you all valuable information to work with.

[Light Ethos]

Krazy doing their thing

Light’s in the middle of pushing separate people from Krazy whilst still aiding support to the Krazy push yet not directly.

And Sasha’s adding support where needed while not taking the spotlight.

I'm not pushing anyone right now. I would be satisfied with a Manatee vote, but I'm not pushing it right now. We have too many players that are not on record, and I want them to get involved in the game.

[Light Ethos]

Early bird guess based on wagon composition and early reads,

Assuming 3 scum, it’s Krazy, Sasha, and Light.

This one is much, much more reasonable if you're going to make a scum team with me in it. I don't have a problem with being mislynched tomorrow if there is consensus between both of you that I'm scum, but you have very different scum teams. I think my death will give you all valuable information to work with.

This is scummy. I don’t know what info you would give nor if you’re town should you be wanting your flip for info on Day 2, after there would already be some flips.

You'd rather it come today? It's very hard for anyone to argue that I've done less to contribute to the game than Manatee. It isn't pro town to suicide when there is someone who looks like scum out there.

[Light Ethos]

If it's 3 v 10, town has some mislynches to give. Not many, but some. I don't think that town would go after Naomi for what she's doing with my ISO without me flipping town first, and I don't read her ISO has being town. What she did says scum to me, but for most players in the game, she has more town cred than I do for some reason.

[Light Ethos]

@LE - no, i don’t want an info lynch on you. I want to lynch you when I see that you’re without a doubt or more than likely scum.

Didn't you just say that I'm scum?

[Light Ethos]

People make suboptimal decisions sometimes, Flavor Leaf. Yes, he could be town. No, I don't think it's right to assume that a player that actively played in other games on site while avoiding this one can only be town because of his behavior in this thread. He got prodded and couldn't be bothered to post more than a placeholder on the vote he cast. Sure, that could be disinterested town. But on the other hand, it could also be someone who rolled vanilla scum and didn't like what they got. I'm really looking forward to studying this game when it's over to understand where you are coming from. If you are scum and if Krazy is scum, that's a pretty brilliant play you two just pulled. If you are town, and if Krazy is scum, that's an even more impressive play. If you are both town and if Manatee is scum, then I'll be interested to try to follow your logic without any preconceptions.

[Light Ethos]

Give him some time to play the damn game. It’s Day 1. Not like this has been going on for multiple day phases.

He wasn’t a replacement. He’s had the same amount of time as everyone else who didn’t replace out. He’s had time. He’s intentionally lurking

So?

It’s Day 1. I’ve literally gotten to a Day 4 with like 5 posts as town before, then cane in like a wrecking ball. Fast game that was, though.

I think the objective for every town player is to help town win. Being as intentionally unhelpful as Manatee has been does not work toward that objective

[Light Ethos]

Flavor Leaf are you scum

I’m the towniest person here.

If i was scum, zero reason to defend Manatee like this if he’s town. Zero reason to defend him this hard if he was a scum buddy.

I’m just correct town.

Here's a great reason to do this as scum and Krazy is town: you get to take out someone who puts a great deal of effort into their cases.

Here's are two reasons to do this as scum and if Krazy is scum with you: you get solid early town cred that isn't hard to keep for the remainder of the game, and you get an easy pocket of a player who is oblivious to the game/an easy mislynch later if people no longer buy that he is town.

Town reason to do this: you think that your read is better than current consensus and are willing to stake your credibility on it.

[Light Ethos]

You guys are effectively describing a policy lynch, and acting like that’s not what it is. That is terrible. This is a scum driven wagon, and through that, you can see that Manatee is town.

Nope, I think it is a policy vote at worst. I'm not advocating for it until we hear from the new player and the players who went inactive.

I'll speak for myself in saying that if Manatee decides to either actually play the game or replace out, I'm fine with looking elsewhere, as of course he is not the only scum player in the game even if he is scum. Krazy has a strong example to show that this is consistent with scum!Manatee play. Your example of how this could be town!Manatee comes from your own experience as a player, not Manatee's.

Your argument that this train on Manatee is being rode by scum players ignores the possibility that Manatee could be a scum player that is so indefensible that he's worth dropping Day 1.

I think your defense of Manatee does far more to show that you are town than it does to show that Manatee is town.

[Light Ethos]

I’m the towniest person here.

Right, you’re the village idiot here so it’s like obv town for you. Got it.

Why the insults? Why can’t I just have a different opinion?

Wish people would be civil.

When you start using logic, then sure. I’m not going to approve of crap logic and a policy lynch. I’m super against that, and think it’s terrible play.

I’m using logic. You are also using logic. We use logic based on our own ideas of how players play and more importantly experience. To insult me by saying I’m an idiot and not using logic is really crossing the line.

First saudade, now you.

Y’all want to bully me? Fine.

mod request replacement

This game isn’t a friendly environment anymore.

P.edit. You’ll have to vote whoever replaces me.

Later guys.

You're well within your rights to leave, but the worst put me on blast much worse than this, even though he knew that I'm new to Mafia. I'd urge you to stick it out. You're playing the game well.

[Light Ethos]

@profii: Small nitpick, but this is directly from the beginning of the wiki page for Neighbor.

Neighbors are players that can speak to each other. Unlike Masons, there is no guarantee made of any Neighbor's alignment

Even someone as new as me would be able to guess that. It might even be in the class card.

[Light Ethos]

Doughboy's play reminded me of how Alonzo played in the few games I played with him. I think it's a style thing more than a scum thing.

[Light Ethos]

i still think its a good idea to remove that wifom rn to be fair.

i also assume there is a 3rd neighbour

How do you do that without knowing the full neighborhood?

[Light Ethos]

That isn't what my question meant. I've been assuming it was a 3 person neighborhood all game. I meant how do you remove the wifom without knowing the third person in the neighborhood? I think the knowledge of who that person is has the potential of making a great deal of difference in which person to lean into if you're certain that it's important to solve the neighborhood puzzle now.

[Light Ethos]

I see. Understood. Thanks. I agree.

[Light Ethos]

@Sashaddin: Do you have any scum reads?

[Light Ethos]

I don't really want to waste todays mislynch on an "afk" slot either so I'm waiting for voyager and so on to speak up

Yeah this is why I didn't jump on the Manatee vote train. I'm leaning towards scum on his slot, but it's important to hear from the slots that disappeared. Thankfully, we have plenty of time left.

[Light Ethos]

Light Ethos is just odd.

What's odd? I'm not taking any offense to it. Just interested in knowing where you're coming from.

[Light Ethos]

*sighs* I'm pretty frustrated by your play, Naomi.
If you flip green this game, I'll be very upset.

[Light Ethos]

Well was meant to do this ealier today, but here we go, another round of me spamming theorising ect.

You can't have it both ways, Naomi. Either I am scum or Crimson and Manatee are scum. There isn't a plausible world in which all three of us are scum.

Prove it.

Sure. Flip me green now.
VOTE: Light Ethos

[Light Ethos]

Nobody has paid any attention to the possibility that you're red, Naomi, and if you're green, your long-term history of trying to discredit me is not going to help me out later on.

[Light Ethos]

I flip green, all of you go for Naomi-Tan.

[Light Ethos]

You chose a good person to go after, red!Naomi.

[Light Ethos]

It's going to take flipping me green to show town that you're red.

[Light Ethos]

Well was meant to do this ealier today, but here we go, another round of me spamming theorising ect.

You can't have it both ways, Naomi. Either I am scum or Crimson and Manatee are scum. There isn't a plausible world in which all three of us are scum.

Prove it.

Sure. Flip me green now.
VOTE: Light Ethos

k

VOTE: light ethos

What convinced you to hammer? It took two minutes...!

She's been tunneling on me all game, and nobody finds it suspicious. Nobody has given me credibility this game, so it is easy for her to just continue to shove me. I don't want to let her get to late game and continue this bullshit. I know that I'm town, so her focus on shoving me is even worse than pressing the inactive players to do something. It's also worse than the inactive players because she has singled me out as scum with a baseless case.

[Light Ethos]

If I had any reasonable belief that others in the game (who aren't Krazy) found me more credible or equally credible to Naomi-Tan, I would have started a train on her today once the players who have been inactive come out of the woodwork.

[Light Ethos]

I'm not a VT, but my role is only as valuable as the trust I have in the game.

[Light Ethos]

And Krazy’s meta link was poor and ultra prepped up. I’ve already explained that. But I will fight this manatee lynch for the day until deadline if I have to.

Lynch it next Day phase of you still feel that way.

However I’m 90% sure I’m correct on Sasha/Krazy. 100% sure there’s at least one in there.

Sasha is on the first non-newbie game with a pool of experienced players. you need to bare in mind they need a while to reach out level.

..... So am I.... That's not an excuse you have extended to me

[Light Ethos]

Thoughts on Sasha?

newbie out of there depths and a little overwhelmed, hoping to encourage them into the open a bit more with a soft touch, unless they feel red.

This is my first game outside Newbie. What makes me so much more red than Sasha? This looks like red!Naomi and red!Sasha to me.

[Light Ethos]

Sasha hasn't had to do anything this game, and you've given him a stamp of approval.

[Light Ethos]

And Krazy’s meta link was poor and ultra prepped up. I’ve already explained that. But I will fight this manatee lynch for the day until deadline if I have to.

Lynch it next Day phase of you still feel that way.

However I’m 90% sure I’m correct on Sasha/Krazy. 100% sure there’s at least one in there.

Sasha is on the first non-newbie game with a pool of experienced players. you need to bare in mind they need a while to reach out level.

Sasha hasn't had to do anything this game, and you've given him a stamp of approval.

Take it as a compliment - you seem to know where you want to go in the game - it’s fairly obvious Sasha needs a bit of a hand but that doesn’t infer trust

I think Naomi is just legit nice and considerate about this - rather than giving Sasha a hard time over it

I could take it that way. The only way I should take it that way is if Naomi flips red this game. If she flips green, she spent a long time running down a green player in his first game out of Newbie who didn't even know that these games aren't usually 4v9. That's not scummy by itself, but it is when she's giving a pass to another new player.

[Light Ethos]

i also just went to check - day talk is on - if i was sashaddin's buddy, i'd be saying stop defending all the scum. It seems so coincidental that you'd expect some mentoring to happen if he was really scum

how did you know this

VOTE: Profil

?? What

[Light Ethos]

What is warlocking

I'm unfamiliar with this term.

Explained later.

[Light Ethos]

I don't really want to waste todays mislynch on an "afk" slot either so I'm waiting for voyager and so on to speak up

Yeah this is why I didn't jump on the Manatee vote train. I'm leaning towards scum on his slot, but it's important to hear from the slots that disappeared. Thankfully, we have plenty of time left.

your one of the biggest supporters of LaL this game :/

What did I lie about? I didn't vote Manatee because I want to hear from the players that haven't been active before Day 1 ends. There is good reason for Manatee to be the Day 1 vote, but ending the Day early doesn't help town.

[Light Ethos]

LE are you scum reading TW rn?

No. It's possible he fake claims in that spot, but I trust others' meta read on him that he doesn't rage when doing it.

[Light Ethos]

You didn't break me. Your attack on me isn't well warranted, but town sees you as one of them. It genuinely will take flipping me green to get you voted out.

[Light Ethos]

I'm getting the sense that not others also see me vs. you as town vs. scum, but you also have town cred for your perceived town vs town with Flavor Leaf.

I've given reasons earlier in the thread why you would go after me as scum. I don't think anyone seriously considered them. I think it will take flipping me green for people to take me seriously.

[Light Ethos]

She's been tunneling on me all game

actually I didn't really start pressuring until post 44 of my iso 549

I don't count RVS as a real part of the game. You were busy for a few days, said you would look into me at profii's suggestion, looked into me, and haven't seriously looked elsewhere since. (By seriously looked elsewhere, I meant cased anyone else.)

You're trying to set up a mislynch on me later. I'm not having it. I would much rather you be seriously considered in the pool of potential scum sooner rather than later because I don't think anyone else has you there.

[Light Ethos]

If I had any reasonable belief that others in the game (who aren't Krazy) found me more credible or equally credible to Naomi-Tan, I would have started a train on her today once the players who have been inactive come out of the woodwork.

... so you willfully ignored something you thought was red to push lurkers? thats.. thats just not productive.

I certainly have not ignored you in my ISO. The probability that my scum read on you is a correct scum read on Day 1 is lower than the probability that it is correct on Day 2 or Day 3.

I joined saudade's push on the worst because he seemed to only care about his own survival Day 1. I haven't pushed any of the lurkers. Manatee's ISO is absolutely abysmal, but I've argued consistently that this Day should not end without us hearing from the lurkers. Manatee's play lines up with a scum game of his, and his lack of effort does not contribute to town.

So back to the accusation you made: I didn't ignore you, but there were other people who look worse to me than you do. I think it's best to sort out weaker reads when we have more information.

[Light Ethos]

Adding to that post: at least one of the players who haven't been involved in the game is scum in the vast majority of games according to probability. I want as much information as possible before pushing on someone who is at least putting misguided effort into the game.

[Light Ethos]

LE what do you make of Flavor Leaf

I think he's town. He's right to say that his defense of Manatee is hard to justify as scum. I gave some possible reasons why he would do it as scum, but I don't think they're high likelihood. I think he has a lot of faith in his reads.

[Light Ethos]

I don't see why I would need to mention that there. Naomi didn't ping me as scum from her interaction with Flavor Leaf. I thought it was Town v. Town at the time.

[Light Ethos]

I also think Flavor Leaf's decision to throw himself into the path of the Manatee train is a very significant decision.

[Light Ethos]

Why wouldn’t you go back and look for scum clues in Naomi vs FL to help you convince us all you’re right

A couple of things. I'm not pushing Naomi until we get the new players back into the game. It's also very possible that something worse comes out of their analyses of the game than Naomi's attack on me. I fully acknowledge that I could be wrong about my read on her, and it's not worth it to me to push that risk without as much information as possible. She put a lot of effort in her case on me, and it seems like other people agree with her on it. I know she's wrong, but town players make mistakes and try to confirm their biases often. Going back to something that didn't ping me as scummy at the time to try to confirm my current suspicion about her doesn't seem productive.

There are so many players in that have abandoned the game. I don't feel good about pulling the trigger on a suspicion I have when I don't have a record of this many players in the game, at least one of whom is likely scum.

I'm also new, and my opinions aren't likely to be considered. Even if I am right, it will come down to my word against hers. I've given scum motivated reasons why she would do what she's done with my post history, but they were not considered. One way to get town to consider them is just to reveal that I haven't been lying about anything this game by flipping me green. Sure, it gives her what she wants, but if I'm wrong about her, it shows her that she's been tunneling in the wrong place.

[Light Ethos]

Flipping me green also has the added benefit of preventing red!Naomi from pocketing green!Sashaddin.

[Light Ethos]

I still think that we need to hear analysis from the players that are avoiding the game before we flip anyone.

[Light Ethos]

Naomi selectively protected Sasha for being new, while going after me at the same time, ignoring the possibility that I'm just a new player. Example: if I'm mafia, someone would give me day talk advice about what the set up is usually like and how the game usually goes, as I'd imagine that Newbie games are much different in flow than Normal games, and I would want to know the differences. I can't ask that stuff here because I don't know that the people who are answering are on my team.

I will not insult Naomi-Tan's intelligence. I believe she understood the post, so I will instead argue that it was scummy for her to misconstrue my post giving numbers to support the claim that it's important for us to hear from the lurkers before the day ends.

[Light Ethos]

Sure, but she got on my case for being a lurker and then for being an active lurker who was somehow connected to Crimson. I'm on mobile, so I can't easily dig out who it was, but someone said that hard lurkers or active lurkers are more suspicious than the other for different people. That's fine, but by now, I don't think I'm either one of those, nor do I have a connection to Crimson. Now to her, I'm just scum because...? If she's town, she's confirming her bias against me. If she's scum, she's pushing an agenda to stick me to players that aren't involved in the game.

Her proposed scum team of me, Crimson, and Manatee makes zero sense if you read my ISO.

[Light Ethos]

Who self votes and honestly expects it to go as far as a lynch, especially as like 2nd on the wagon or whatever silliness that was

I would hope it wouldn't happen before the people who haven't shown up to the thread yet appear. It seems like nobody is willing to consider the possibility of Naomi being scum, and I don't want her to have the opportunity to leverage her credibility to shove me later. A green flip on me looks awful for her.

I want town to have as much information as possible. That means I want lurking players to come to the thread and make actionable statements. It also means that since people are blindly accepting Naomi's case on me as good, I want people to know that she's wrong on me.

I would also hope that if when the lurkers/abandoners come out of the woodwork, some of them look far worse than either Naomi or me, we can focus our attention on them.

My vote on myself is a commitment to my claim that you shouldn't give Naomi a pass this game. I'm fine with dying first to show it. the worst and Naomi lined up against me. the worst still hasn't shown town motivation, but he claimed a power role. Not worth the risk of shoving on that Day 1. Naomi tried to pin me to two players I can't logically be pinned to, and she's trying to pocket Sashaddin who is clearly not interested in trying to form his own reads.

I don't feel listened to this game, but if you don't believe what I've been saying in my ISO, one way to get you to consider it is just flipping me.

[Light Ethos]

I said that Sasha isn't interested in forming reads because it took coaching from Naomi, and his attention to the thread has been pretty intermittent.

[Light Ethos]

Can you name names on people who are following Naomi’s case on you

the worst and Sashaddin absolutely are following the case. Manatee did before he flaked. Flavor Leaf said it was good.

[Light Ethos]

I don't think Krazy, saudade, or Doughboy agreed with it.

Unsure of what Crimson, Frank, Parrot would think.
Also don't know what you think, profii.

[Light Ethos]

If I had any reasonable belief that others in the game (who aren't Krazy) found me more credible or equally credible to Naomi-Tan, I would have started a train on her today once the players who have been inactive come out of the woodwork.

... so you willfully ignored something you thought was red to push lurkers? thats.. thats just not productive.

I certainly have not ignored you in my ISO. The probability that my scum read on you is a correct scum read on Day 1 is lower than the probability that it is correct on Day 2 or Day 3.

I joined saudade's push on the worst because he seemed to only care about his own survival Day 1. I haven't pushed any of the lurkers. Manatee's ISO is absolutely abysmal, but I've argued consistently that this Day should not end without us hearing from the lurkers. Manatee's play lines up with a scum game of his, and his lack of effort does not contribute to town.

So back to the accusation you made: I didn't ignore you, but there were other people who look worse to me than you do. I think it's best to sort out weaker reads when we have more information.

heh, your answering my attacks with nothing but defence. Trying to wait for the lurkers to voice stuff is not effective, question pursue and while doing so poke lurkers, it gives more content forces reads and is more likely to reveal the truth.

I'm answering your attacks because it's important to answer them. Of the players who are active in the game, more of them are on your side of the disagreement between us than not. I've asked plenty of questions in this thread, and they have certainly not all been addressed to those who are not here. Would it have been better to just let your attack slip though and instead dig into others? I don't think it would be, but if others agree with Naomi on that point, let me know and tell me why.

[Light Ethos]

if I ever get in trouble irl I'm hiring Naomi as my lawyer

Never underestimate the power of a prosecutor who can push a guilty conviction, regardless of the facts of the case.

[Light Ethos]

what are you talking about profii

You quite clearly wanted TW lynched and were just point blank wanting people to do it

I don’t think Le is under even half as much pressure, but he keeps insisting he is. It’s weird

I'm not and am not claiming that I am.

[Light Ethos]

Who self votes and honestly expects it to go as far as a lynch, especially as like 2nd on the wagon or whatever silliness that was

I bet I can self vote and go afk for the rest of the day and not get lynched

most likely.

but the only reasons I know for self vote is red's self hammering to shut down discussion early.

After this game, you'll see that this is an example of a green self-voting to give credibility to a suspicion of a player that misrepresented posts to make a case. Nobody has you as scum. To my knowledge, only Krazy has you as possible scum. You've been very loud this game and had the good fortune of having a nice back and forth with someone who is town early enough in the game that it bought you credibility. It would take a lot to shake your credibility this game, and a green flip on me would do that.

[Light Ethos]

Oops got prodded, gimme a bit to catch up.

Why have you logged on multiple times but not posted?

@Manatee: Why is your vote still on yourself?

VOTE: Light Ethos

You disappeared for several days, were asked a reasonable question about what happened, and instead of answering it, you rush to vote someone without explaining yourself.
Earlier today, you said that you had a hard time sorting out whether I'm mafia or town. Suddenly, you switch to thinking that out of the two of us, Crimson is the one who is town, and I'm the one who is mafia. Reasons??

guessing this is addressing ManateeDude given the context. Which I only have to ask, at what point did ManateeDude suggest that they was deciding between the two of you as red or green. In a binary fashion as presented here. This is a partial missrep obviously as in the post referenced they didn't even mention crimson. But the question on why he switched was perfectly valid and I asked it myself.

You misrepresented my posts on multiple instances in this thread. The above is an example. Here you say that my post is a misrepresentation because I'm saying that Manatee was deciding between me and Crimson to tell who is red and who is green out of the two of us, and it isn't in the post I quoted. Either you didn't read the thread well, or you're trying to smear me to improve your case. You've shown that you're not allergic to reading, so I'm inclined to think that this was intentional, not a mistake. This is the support for my statement in 680:

Okay, so heres a thing. I think Crimson97 and Light Ethos are connected some how.

for 3 main reasons.

Firstly. they never directly interact other than in support of each other
Secondly. there votes / pushes seem coordinated as they happen relatively close to one another.
Thirdly. there post sizes and frequency are similar in the case of they say a little bit rarely to seem productive, but are not big posters (when I said I should look into Light Ethos for example he had 6 posts which lacked content overall)

going through the timeline;

Spoiler:

18 Crimson: votes manatee
20 Crimson: If red this could be a setup for later to be like "yeah im not great at reading him" (of course greens can also do this as it may be true)
23

Light Ethos: While voting profili also puts pressure on Manatee

41

Light Ethos: Mentions crimson but asks no questions or anything (this is the post that Profili called the worst post)

188 Crimson: Confirms Light ethos's theory in a positive manner, but asks no questions
297

Light ethos: Takes an easy stance vs crazy safe vote. also gives reads but doesn't mention Crimson, says that saudade is green

345 & 346* Crimsons first post since Light ethos said Saudade is a green read they also say there a green read (456)
368

Light Ethos: Returns to voting Profili after nothing comes of kraz but keeps the pressure on them a bit always stating they don't see them as green

413

Light ethos: asks a question directly to Crimson. but in the same post also acknowledges someone is actively hunting lurkers so might of been an attempt to generate some activity {could also be a green action}

(Starting to think I was just putting together bits that don't quite fit now.)
418

Light ethos: comes out and defends Crimson

(so maybe there is a connection there and light ethos is just keeping them at arms length.)
451 Crimson97: suggests that frank could be manatee's red buddy. Marks a 'safe' vote by remarking on the word twisting thing.
457

Light ethos: says vote on Profili is "didn't seem to pay much mind to the possibility of Frank being scum"

This looks fabricated, as he didn't even mention frank in his vote post or for another 2 posts after that (or 5 hours later) so that doesn't really match up timeline wise. Vote post is: 368 and the post mentioning frank is 418
504

Light ethos: this is the first time They are in disagreement and its rather recent.

*(wrapping them as its a double post)
these have been clipped down to just the common links and are my interpretations.

I'm gonna vote Light for now. I just find this whole lining up thing weird and kinda sketchy. also dislike 457's timeline and am still struggling to sort most people out.
VOTE: Light ethos

Now this is kind of smart, but one could be green and a red in there could be following around a green for a pocket, specifically I think Light Ethos is more likely to be scum here, even though Crimson was a previous scumread of mine

[Light Ethos]

Town players should not misrepresent others' posts.

[Light Ethos]

Okay, so heres a thing. I think Crimson97 and Light Ethos are connected some how.

for 3 main reasons.

Firstly. they never directly interact other than in support of each other
Secondly. there votes / pushes seem coordinated as they happen relatively close to one another.
Thirdly. there post sizes and frequency are similar in the case of they say a little bit rarely to seem productive, but are not big posters (when I said I should look into Light Ethos for example he had 6 posts which lacked content overall)

going through the timeline;

Spoiler:

18 Crimson: votes manatee
20 Crimson: If red this could be a setup for later to be like "yeah im not great at reading him" (of course greens can also do this as it may be true)
23

Light Ethos: While voting profili also puts pressure on Manatee

41

Light Ethos: Mentions crimson but asks no questions or anything (this is the post that Profili called the worst post)

188 Crimson: Confirms Light ethos's theory in a positive manner, but asks no questions
297

Light ethos: Takes an easy stance vs crazy safe vote. also gives reads but doesn't mention Crimson, says that saudade is green

345 & 346* Crimsons first post since Light ethos said Saudade is a green read they also say there a green read (456)
368

Light Ethos: Returns to voting Profili after nothing comes of kraz but keeps the pressure on them a bit always stating they don't see them as green

413

Light ethos: asks a question directly to Crimson. but in the same post also acknowledges someone is actively hunting lurkers so might of been an attempt to generate some activity {could also be a green action}

(Starting to think I was just putting together bits that don't quite fit now.)
418

Light ethos: comes out and defends Crimson

(so maybe there is a connection there and light ethos is just keeping them at arms length.)
451 Crimson97: suggests that frank could be manatee's red buddy. Marks a 'safe' vote by remarking on the word twisting thing.
457

Light ethos: says vote on Profili is "didn't seem to pay much mind to the possibility of Frank being scum"

This looks fabricated, as he didn't even mention frank in his vote post or for another 2 posts after that (or 5 hours later) so that doesn't really match up timeline wise. Vote post is: 368 and the post mentioning frank is 418
504

Light ethos: this is the first time They are in disagreement and its rather recent.

*(wrapping them as its a double post)
these have been clipped down to just the common links and are my interpretations.

I'm gonna vote Light for now. I just find this whole lining up thing weird and kinda sketchy. also dislike 457's timeline and am still struggling to sort most people out.
VOTE: Light ethos

In what world is this a valid reason to push someone? You go from "here's a thing: I see that there might be a connection between two players, but I acknowledge that it might not be sound" to I'm going to vote this, and it's scum because I don't like the timeline of a post. What? If I'm wrong about your logic, please explain it.

[Light Ethos]

769 Is just ew, given how even me and flavour have came to the conclusion it was TvT (as well as the rest from what I gather) It reads poorly. It feels like he just ignored our posts at that time as the accusations made in 769 look like some pretty major points you'd want to bring up WAY sooner. Seeing a 'contradictory' post in the first 100 posts of the game and entirely ignoring it for over 600 other posts is just...

VOTE: Crimson

There's no way a green member would ignore this.
Also going with my hidden link theory this matches up with it, im pressuring one of them (LE) so yeah..

Yes. The only way a town player would ignore those posts is if they are like the worst and only want to survive their way through Day 1. This is why I wanted to flush Crimson's opinion on it out. How did you come to decide on Crimson as your vote? There are plenty of other players/slots that didn't react to that interaction. Why choose Crimson specifically as your vote? The cynic in me says that you know that Crimson is scum, are choosing him to be your Day 1 vote, and are then going to somehow stick to your reachy claim that he and I are connected. You think I'm scum. Why do you think Crimson is worse than I am?

[Light Ethos]

Naomi-Tan is a town lock for most people and has been trying to pin me in a scum team with two players that have largely vacated the thread, your slot included. It's also scum team that doesn't make sense given my ISO. To form her case on me, she's misrepresented several of my posts. I thought it would take a green flip on me for people to take my charge seriously that she shouldn't get a pass this game.

[Light Ethos]

Well was meant to do this ealier today, but here we go, another round of me spamming theorising ect.

You can't have it both ways, Naomi. Either I am scum or Crimson and Manatee are scum. There isn't a plausible world in which all three of us are scum.

Prove it.

The self-vote was in response to this. The only way to definitively prove that I'm not in that scum team is by just flipping me as green. I don't want there to be a point later in the game where she acts on the blueprint she set up. This is my first Normal game, so I'm alright with taking an early death to ensure that town doesn't just let red!Naomi get to endgame with town cred for a kill on red!Crimson, shoving me next off of a shoddy link.

[Light Ethos]

I don't really want to waste todays mislynch on an "afk" slot either so I'm waiting for voyager and so on to speak up

Yeah this is why I didn't jump on the Manatee vote train. I'm leaning towards scum on his slot, but it's important to hear from the slots that disappeared. Thankfully, we have plenty of time left.

your one of the biggest supporters of LaL this game :/

What did I lie about? I didn't vote Manatee because I want to hear from the players that haven't been active before Day 1 ends. There is good reason for Manatee to be the Day 1 vote, but ending the Day early doesn't help town.

true.. but i remember a certain 4 player lurker list.

A list which again, you misrepresented. It wasn't a scum list. It was a list of players that weren't contributing to the game. You made it out like that list was a list of players I had down as scum. Do you still stand by your team of Manatee ( now Creature), me, and Crimson?
Why have you so consistently misrepresented my posts, Naomi? This is beyond misunderstanding my posts. It's intentional misrepresentation that is not consistent with a town player. You're experienced enough to do this as town.

What do you think of the worst after his claim, and do you buy the claim? What's your take on profii?

[Light Ethos]

lol how many selfvoters are there?

Unfortunate for you, but your slot was self-voting for most of the game.

[Light Ethos]

1185 should say experience enough

not

to do this as town

[Light Ethos]

engage with me, give me a read list so i can pin your alignment down. Also include reasons.

Green: Naomi, for taking leadership and directing since early game. Lots of posts with deep content.
Profii: Felt that even he had a 2-word curse he was trying to help. Haven't lost the feeling since.
Doughboy: I honestly don't remember why. I should cross him off and start fresh with the replacement.

Null: Saudade, because earlier he was opposed to Doughboy whom I thought was green but posted good enough to move him back up.

Red: Manatee, acting weird and quitting is suspicious in itself.
Light Ethos: Because Naomi looked more credible to me and was in opposition with her. He had me confused a bit too.

No idea on the other slots

What did you find weird about Manatee? Is it anything other than the self-vote in RVS?
Parrot flaked from the thread too. Why is Parrot not in your list of suspicious players?

[Light Ethos]

@Crimson:
1. What's your take on the ongoing disagreement between Naomi and me?
2. Do you lean town on Flavor Leaf after his push on Krazy?

[Light Ethos]

@Flavor Leaf: When is that case on Krazy coming?

[Light Ethos]

@Crimson:
1. What's your take on the ongoing disagreement between Naomi and me?
2. Do you lean town on Flavor Leaf after his push on Krazy?

@Flavor Leaf: When is that case on Krazy coming?

This is also scummy points for LE.

Looks like he’s trying to change the subject of he game now that there’s pressure on them.

That's unfair to me. I spend a great deal of my posts responding to Naomi's ongoing attack on me. She comes back with a report about it being suspicious that all I'm doing is defending. I continue responding to her, and then I ask questions to other players. You come back and say it's scummy that I asked other players questions.

I hope you're just fucking with me because if you aren't, I don't know what I'm supposed to do here.

[Light Ethos]

Well was meant to do this ealier today, but here we go, another round of me spamming theorising ect.

You can't have it both ways, Naomi. Either I am scum or Crimson and Manatee are scum. There isn't a plausible world in which all three of us are scum.

Prove it.

Sure. Flip me green now.
VOTE: Light Ethos

Don't self vote. Literally pointless and is scummy af.

Why is it pointless? Why is it scummy?

[Light Ethos]

Naomi-Tan is a town lock for most people and has been trying to pin me in a scum team with two players that have largely vacated the thread, your slot included. It's also scum team that doesn't make sense given my ISO. To form her case on me, she's misrepresented several of my posts. I thought it would take a green flip on me for people to take my charge seriously that she shouldn't get a pass this game.

I feel like you’re the reason Naomi is getting town locked.

While they’re leaning town, sure, day 1 that’s no where near a town lock. Scum points for LE.

It seems like she's getting locked. If I'm wrong about that, then I'm wrong about that. Flipping me green will force you and the other town players that are fine with her to actually consider what I've said instead of disregarding it immediately.

[Light Ethos]

Looking forward to seeing how hard day talk has been shitting on me this game.

[Light Ethos]

yeah TW, Krazy, Sasha can be scum.
I think Voyagers slot is a crucial key to solving this puzzle

Why Voyager's instead of one of the other inactives? (Or is that homework I'm supposed to do on my own?)

[Light Ethos]

Why would you flipping green make us consider redNaomi? Why can’t that be done without that? Why can’t Naomi be green pushing greenyou?

I'm the push that she's putting the most effort into. I've given multiple examples of her misrepresenting my posts and gave a scum motivation for why she would target me and stick with it. If I flip green, the town players still living have an incentive to go back and look at the interactions between the two of us more closely.

I don't think green!Naomi misrepresents posts to make a case like she did with me. If she does, then that's just how she plays.
In an ideal world, you don't need to flip me green to see that she's misrepresenting my posts to reach for a case on me. Like I said earlier, it seemed to me that of the active town players in the game, red!Naomi isn't possible without confirmed green!Light Ethos.

However I’m not really caring to push you this day phase, as J can see you coming from both alignmentse

Fair enough. From what I see, only profii really is right now. We can revisit this another Day.
UNVOTE:

[Light Ethos]

Krazy/Sasha it is, then.

Krazy should definitely be the one, though.

If you want to push Krazy, we'll need your case for it. You had reasons for it before Krazy posted his read list, but you haven't gotten around to posting the case.

[Light Ethos]

@the worst: if you still think I'm scum, who is my scum team?

[Light Ethos]

Krazy/Sasha it is, then.

Krazy should definitely be the one, though.

If you want to push Krazy, we'll need your case for it. You had reasons for it before Krazy posted his read list, but you haven't gotten around to posting the case.

I actually don’t really like this.

It’s not in one post, sure, but I’ve definitely cased Krazy enough and made enough points on him that it would be redundant at this point. You’re just choosing not to look at it that way here because it’s not a “case” it’s just post. But my Third Degree Boon (my name’s tactic that i word play from my main account) where I go deep interaction is my best way at showing said person is scum.

I can see why you wouldn't like my post, and I expected something similar to what you said in response.
You said that when you got back, you were going to go in on Krazy. While both of you had a back and forth over his read list, you haven't done that yet.
If you can't be bothered to make a case for your choice of lynch, why should I take your word as a tiebreaker between Krazy and anyone else who looks scummy?

But that's fair. Different styles for different people. I haven't been here long enough to participate in games with a lot of different styles.
I'll ask it directly then:

Why Krazy over Sashaddin or Crimson?

I ask about Sashaddin because you and saudade have been aligned on reads for much of the game, and you both suspect scum from him. I ask about Crimson because that's Naomi-Tan's choice of push, and I don't see much concern for town in his ISO either.

[Light Ethos]

Literally everything Sasha is saying makes sense coming from a newer player’s first non newbie.

that's not really alignment indicative sorry

I agree with this. Earlier, I wasn't expecting Naomi to give me a pass because I'm new. I expected Naomi to be consistent and not to selectively apply that pass to one new player instead of another.

[Light Ethos]

he's overdefensive and passive, my vote stays

I will help better later in the game. Having less players around would be a reason. Longer ISO could be another. In fact I could cite a few more but you mostly know them.

I don't think it's helpful to town to have players who are primarily concerned with their own survival early in the game, especially not newer players. If everyone is looking out for their own survival Day 1, then mafia gets to take a break or misdirect traffic unchallenged.

[Light Ethos]

firstly, I wouldn't count me as town leadership. I'm a wild dog biting everything that I can see. I may be happy to explain things Im aware of, but Im still wild. Also my posts are a little fluffy at times, least if my meta is peristing from the last time I played.

I'm not sure what brought this to mind right now, but I do have a question about it when you get the chance, Naomi-Tan.
You've seen a lot of saudade in this thread. Why haven't you taken a bite at him? What initially made you trust him?

[Light Ethos]

saudade, Sashaddin, and I were the first votes on him.

[Light Ethos]

@Naomi, did you know if you highlight a certain phrase then hit "quote" it'll just quote that phrase?

I'm not Naomi, but I didn't know this. Thanks for the tip!

[Light Ethos]

Just out of curiosity, how would pushing red!crimson as red!Naomi play into red's wincon if Crimson was getting little to no pressure off anyone but us two and not very high pressure either? wouldn't it be better to let them live on to D2 or D3 and either naturally die or help with Miss lynches?

At the time you started to push on me, you hadn't been involved in the game much beyond your deep interaction with Flavor Leaf. That push didn't gain very much traction with anyone, but it did buy you a town lean from most third-parties in the game. You got busy, so you stepped back for some time while profii and I were going back and forth and while saudade was trying to get a push on Frank going. You came back, acknowledged that you needed to get back involved again, and did so by choosing to target me and to pin Crimson and I to each other. Crimson hasn't taken much of a role in the game, so you switched to Crimson but still stood by your theory that we're both scum.

Why is this a valid strategy for red!Naomi on a team with red!Crimson?

Well, you need to look like you're doing something this game. Posting a lot of short commentary to things after the fact can only buy you so much favor with the town. You put yourself on record for being against safe votes, and you characterized votes on players who were inactive as safe. Thus, if you decide to push on a player who is inactive, it looks even worse for you if that player isn't even scum. People are already leaning town on you, and as I posted earlier in the thread, more people than not have leaned toward buying into your case against me. If you're able to nail a scum player that has already arguably been dead weight for scum anyway, and you're able to pull off that connection you set up between Crimson and I, then you come out ahead of where you were before all of this started for two reasons:

1. You buy yourself a ton of credibility for going out on your own, pushing your own read, and being correct about it.
2. You get a quick trade kill on a town player who is actively following and engaged in the thread.

Those two gains are worth the cost of red!Crimson. Even if all you get is the town cred, that's a powerful thing to be able to leverage for the rest of the game, especially if red!Naomi's other scum buddy another active player in the game.

Additionally, I would argue that right now, red!Naomi's push on red!Crimson is not gaining traction.

The game has stalled out while replacements are found. saudade, the player who most people have locked as town, is focusing on Sashaddin and Krazy right now. So is Flavor Leaf. It would take a lot to convince them to go elsewhere right now, so you have little risk of getting red!Crimson killed right now anyway.

It's safe for you to go after Crimson with your vote right now.

This allows you to continue to build the groundwork of that long-term plan of linking Crimson to me, getting Crimson killed at some point, benefiting from the town cred it buys you by saying "I told you so", trading up by trading Crimson for me, and continuing to the end with your other scum buddy.

Basically I thought it was unprovable and am right in the fact that it can't really be proved with words, a self flip was not something I thought anyone would try.

A creative solution was found.

[Light Ethos]

Light Ethos. are you doing more replies to me right now? Just want to know.

Not in the process of writing anything now. Thank you for your answer in 1408.

I appreciate your answers. I do have a few questions, but I will ask them later when I have a chance to further review the thread off of mobile.

[Light Ethos]

Not quite, read again.

Hmm... upon review.. I think you may be fishing for Wking and doing it as a reaction thing.

Quick question though: what does WKing mean?

[Light Ethos]

I don't think Naomi is suspecting me?

well the worst promised me more stuff and didn't deliver so not too happy about that but his claim I dunno how i feel about yet, im gonna let it sit and ignore it mostly for now.

@the worst: Pretty sure this is where Sashaddin was coming from. As saudade said, you're getting a pass today because of your claim. That doesn't mean she doesn't suspect you. (unless it's red!Naomi and red!the worst)

[Light Ethos]

As for your questions. I stand by 2 out of 3 of the pool I gave earlier though I'm not specifying which for tactical reasons

@Naomi-Tan:

So that means you're confident that the pool of {Light Ethos, Creature, Crimson} has 2 scum players in it, or did I misinterpret that statement?

[Light Ethos]

Follow-up for Naomi-Tan:

If you do believe that there are 2 scum in that pool of 3 players, that requires at least one of Frank and Parrot's slot to be town. How can you be confident of this without hearing much of anything from either of them?

[Light Ethos]

what did I promise that I didn't deliver? sorry, I literally didn't see her say like much about me at all.

Tbf her posts are just wild quote pyramids so..

Not sure what she meant by that comment.

[Light Ethos]

self voting is either like pissed town or cheap AtE scum. But I think part of my current boredom is that 5 seconds after LEthos looked like caught scum I started doubting my read and I have no idea who the fuck is mafia here lmfao

It's difficult for me to help in finding scum when there are so many players who have not been engaged in the game. We have consistently had at least 4 players who are not actively engaged in analyzing content or producing content, and probability wise, at least one of those players is likely scum. (Currently, I would count Crimson, Parrot's slot, Frank's slot, and Doughboy's slot.) Sure, I townread Doughboy, but the point stands: it's hard to find connections between players if they don't comment on things in the thread.

[Light Ethos]

And how do we know that he wouldn't do the same thing as scum?

[Light Ethos]

Or a better question is why are you assuming that he wouldn't do the same thing as scum? We'll need to make reads based on whoever fills in for UCVoyager.

[Light Ethos]

Happy that you are safe

[Light Ethos]

@Mister Rogers: Welcome to the neighborhood. Won't you be my neighbor?

[Light Ethos]

I wish to salute Worst.

I learned from my neighbor that Worst claimed Gunsmith and to that of course I say:

This probably is the final confirmation that there are only two Neighbors in the Neighborhood this game. Pretty instructive use of singular.

[Light Ethos]

So you are saying there CANNOT be another neighborhood(s)? I just got done reading a 200 page game that had like half a dozen of them...

Haven't played outside Newbie. That's pretty cool.

[Light Ethos]

Doughboy did a good deal of that before he ragequit

[Light Ethos]

because as of the first 10 pages, I don't think he has earned it

Now you see a potential downside of reading only the first two and last two chapters of a book: sometimes surprises happen in the middle.

[Light Ethos]

Oh hey gaiz, re: Worst's claim of Gunsmith, can you please link me to that so I can at least read it? TIA. xoxxoxox.

Here you go:

anyway since this Muppet outed it

I'm literally a town gunsmith. I nearly cried when I saw this role.

[Light Ethos]

It's entirely the worst's fault for getting outed here, as to that point, he was just in survival mode.

[Light Ethos]

Krazy informed me in the Q/T that LE has a very obvious scum game where he is quite uncomfortable and posts very little but when he plays as town he is much more vocal and appears more comfortbale in his element.

Full disclosure: I didn't have enough time to play that game I rolled scum and had to be replaced. I wasn't lying; work got busy out of nowhere that week and stayed just as busy for almost a month. The difference between that game and the others I've played shouldn't be the basis of your read on me this game.

[Light Ethos]

If I recall correctly, he was referring to your slot, but you'll have to look to be sure. the worst just uses names like calling Saudade dosage and sausage. I linked you to the claim. Read around it to see if you agree with my assessment and if you agree with where Saudade was coming from in voting him.

[Light Ethos]

@Light: I really like your recent posting but it has been 3 days since you voted, where should we be focusing here?

I've been busy yesterday evening through today. I'll be back either late tonight or midday tomorrow.

Currently I'm at page 64. I still think it's important to post where my thoughts are before tomorrow.

I'm a bit lost in terms of where I think pressure should go. The difficult part for me is that there have been so many players that haven't been an active part of the game or who have replaced out of the game.

Options:

the worst:

I don't see town motivation in what the worst has done this game, but I also don't feel great about offing a power role claim Day 1, even if it doesn't feel legitimate to me.

Sashaddin:

Similar to the worst, but not as caustic or abrasive. He had to be prompted by Naomi-Tan to interact instead of coasting or lurking. Yes, he and I are new, but I don't think that excuses his lack of concern for advancing the game. Added plus is that he isn't a PR claim

Krazy:

I still don't feel good about the beginning of the Neighboorhood conversation as it was reported by Doughboy. If players are assigned to the Neighborhoods randomly, then ~46% of the time at least one of the two of them is scum (if we include the fact the fact that each of us not in that Neighborhood knows that we are town). I think Doughboy was town, and Mr. Rogers continued it for the slot. I'd have to look back at Krazy's ISO to get a better read, but I don't have any reason to object to pressuring him.

Naomi-Tan:

Even though we had a back and forth where she explained that she just posts what she thinks of things, I still feel that the misinterpretations of some of my earlier posts was deliberate and that now that the focus is away from her and from me, she's looking at easier targets to mislynch. Downside here is that if she's town, the loss of her analysis at no cost to scum is pretty big, even if she hasn't been using it.

Any of the inactive slots

Out of contention:

Saudade:

If Saudade is scum this game, I think we're more or less lost anyway.

profii:

While the two word thing was incredibly annoying, he was actively engaged in ways that I felt were constructive. Sure, he's stepped back a bit, but I'll lean on my early read to push him out of contention for the day.

Mister Rogers:

Doughboy was a firm town read for me before he ragequit.

Flavor Leaf:

I'll give him a great deal of respect if he turns out to be scum this game. From that angle, his defense of Manatee was a creative move that I'll use in a scum game within the next year. I still read that as town leaning to me.

I did this quickly, as I don't have much time. Like I said, I'll try to check in tonight.

[Light Ethos]

Before I leave, I should add that Krazy's meta reads are a valuable asset to have moving forward, and that's enough for me not to want to place him as my primary choice for now. I need to reread his ISO to see if I can better see and understand where Flavor Leaf is coming from, but I don't have time for that right now.

[Light Ethos]

I can see where you both are coming from on Krazy. Flavor Leaf is convinced that Krazy is using Manatee's slot as an easy scapegoat. However, that's not where you are Mister Rogers.

@Mister Rogers:

I don't think Manatee's gameplay was defensible. I can think of a motive red!Krazy would have for doing this to Creature, but I'd like to know what your thought is.

[Light Ethos]

About Crimson:

I had included him in the inactives on my list I found acceptable to go after Day 1 because he spent a good portion of the thread with sporadic posts with 24 hour gaps in them. Yes, he's come back and has been contributing. He picked up on my interaction with Naomi-Tan and agreed that she went into scum territory in making her case on me. I agree with Naomi-Tan on him however. It strikes me as unsettling that he would shove Manatee and then soon after flip to Manatee being town without much being said by Creature or by Frank (someone with a similarly weak ISO but for a different, acceptable reason.)

[Light Ethos]

@Saudade:

I don't see how Sashaddin is the best Day 1 vote. Enlighten me?

[Light Ethos]

VOTE: Crimson

The explanation for this vote comes in Post #1808

[Light Ethos]

Krazy is VERY focused on Creature/Manatee.

The reason I spilled the beans now is because there is a large push towards Creature and I want to discuss how Creature can very well be scum here?

I think you’re analysis of certain things is a bit sketchy and playing to both sides of the field. Scumlean.

What two sides do you see?

[Light Ethos]

@Saudade:

I don't see how Sashaddin is the best Day 1 vote. Enlighten me?

I think he's scum.
Scum is the best vote day one.
If you want to read up my case just read back and pay attention

And you don't have a third scum member? I think it's more likely than not that he is scum, and I also think that's true for the worst. I think red!Sashaddin is less useful for scum than red!Crimson would be or red!theWorst would be. I read your case and did not disagree with you, but that doesn't quite answer my question. Sashaddin has been coached in this public thread and has been relatively committed to passive play, which if he is scum, probably isn't going to sow discord. I don't object to a Day 1 Sashaddin vote, but I don't see how he looks worse than Crimson does.

@Saudade: Do you just see Crimson as a guy who got busy and couldn't be bothered with the game for a while, or could he be scum in your book too?

[Light Ethos]

you expect me to nail down all 3 scums day one?

No I don't. I was asking if you don't have a third scum to confirm that you don't, as you've already explained why you aren't voting your second scum.

[Light Ethos]

@Gamma: What are your reads so far beyond Creature's slot being scum? Also, is that vote more because of Manatee or because of Creature?

[Light Ethos]

Obviously Creature has taken the 3 most current wagons and made them his suspects. Was this just a coincidence or is there evidence of these reads from his list post. I can't go look up because I am at work.

That’s a sign Creature is scum. Consensus scum (or really any) reads = scum creature. I actually noted his reads were kinda consensus when I skimmed his ISO before joining

@Gamma: I accept this. I'd still like an answer to the question I asked in Post 1850. You said that Mister Rogers' analysis is at times "sketchy and playing to both sides of the field." What two sides do you see?

[Light Ethos]

feels scum guilt

What is scum guilt?

[Light Ethos]

I answered that in the post I made immediately after seeing that

Thanks for clearing that up. Didn't know that was your answer the first time I read it.

[Light Ethos]

Town: Gamma

What's the basis for this?

[Light Ethos]

He went pretty mad as a caught SK when it came down to trying to win in the last game I played with him

Hmm that's interesting. I still don't buy his claim.

[Light Ethos]

I will decide betwen Crimson-Creature but I can most certainly tell you that I am leaning Crimson very very heavily because of wagon composition.

Elaborate?

[Light Ethos]

I don't know how to respond to that GIF

[Light Ethos]

So, one of LE/Saude, then one of Profii/Crimson is scum with you.

Can you be more transparent about how you came to these conclusions? Mostly the second one

[Light Ethos]

Also for Flavor Leaf: why is Frank town? Is it purely because your scum read says he could be scum?

[Light Ethos]

@profii: I had a feeling that was what Flavor Leaf was doing. Frank is curiously absent even from being possible scum.

[Light Ethos]

Admittedly, Flavor Leaf has been away, but 1922 does feel lazy. To me it reads "I've found scum and will then construct a scum list based on it. I don't even need to look elsewhere." That feels more like tunnelling than is warranted for Day 1.

[Light Ethos]

Don’t apply your playstyle to me. Just because I’m not reading a bloated thread doesn’t fucking mean I’m coasting.

I don't think it's alignment indicative, but I think it's reasonable to call that coasting. There have been some noteworthy things that have happened that might be worth keeping in mind. It's also harder to read players without knowing what their interactions have been with other players. You joined the game and chose an active wagon to jump on and supported your choice. I do think that's a form of coasting.

[Light Ethos]

Leafs reads rely on his meta on other players rather than content from this game so I really couldn't care less what he says anymore at this point

Is that how your games with him generally go, or is that specific to this game?

[Light Ethos]

@Rogers: What you're saying is an opinion, not objective truth. Gamma doesn't play the way you play. While rereading the thread as a townie is more helpful to town, he doesn't have to, and he isn't scum for not doing it.

About the Creature thing, have you seen Manatee's ISO? That's an awful situation to be shoved into.

[Light Ethos]

Oh whoops. My last post was in response to a few pages ago (1948). You already moved on like I hoped you would.

[Light Ethos]

Who all has reads of profii other than null?

I'm also lean green on him.

[Light Ethos]

@Saudade: If town mislynches today, do you still want the worst tomorrow? I haven't been in the situation before where someone makes a claim Day 1 and doesn't get killed either that Day or at Night. You clearly don't buy his claim. If Sashaddin flips town, do you still go after the worst the next day? In general, when is it safe to killed claimed prs?

[Light Ethos]

I can see scum Sashaddin, but I don't see how Crimson's play this game is better than Sashaddin's.

[Light Ethos]

who are you even voting at the moment? one of the lurkers?

Crimson. Sashaddin has shown more engagement than Crimson has. I lean red on him, but he hasn't looked worse to me than the worst. He also doesn't look worse than Crimson.

A new player gets more of a pass for taking a more passive line of play than the worst should.

[Light Ethos]

I can see scum Sashaddin, but I don't see how Crimson's play this game is better than Sashaddin's.

the difference is in attention
sash clearly pays attention to the game and has some sort of investment in it
crimson doesnt
sash cares about appearing town this game
and only that
crimson doesnt give a flying fuck what happens

I don't think a player that doesn't care about the game is better than a player who wants to look town. Yes, they both aren't helping town. I'll give you that.

[Light Ethos]

Just noting for the record that I believe scum are pushing this thread to explode with posts to make it impossible for Frank!Replace to catch up. This IS a scum strategy and I want to state for the record that I am not part of this.

Let me look into this...

What...?! This makes zero sense.

[Light Ethos]

a players who only cares about appearing town is a scum mentality kind of player
the other is null

I agree with you, and that's why I think Sashaddin is worse than Frank's or than Parrot's slot to me. However, Crimson's inattention seems more scummy than bored town. He's posted somewhat sporadically during times that things were happening but didn't really care to comment on them contemporaneously. I don't think that's town behavior.

[Light Ethos]

the votes are way too split
way way way too split

I mean this is the real reason why Sashaddin isn't happening today.

@Mister Rogers: What didn't make sense to me is that you said that so soon after having an irrelevant back and forth with Gamma that boosted the post count for no reason.

[Light Ethos]

thinking about flipping to your scumread and I just cant
it feels like a lottery
he simply didnt post or care enough about this game
he could be anything

That is what has made this game so hard for me. There are far too many slots that didn't put much into the game. Most reasonable votes feel like a coinflip to me today.