Overkill 1: Serenity/Firefly (GAME OVER)

[Flicker]

Hey, all! This is my first large game; hopefully I don't fall behind.

VOTE: TPFKAP for having an unpronounceable username.

[Flicker]

welcome to larges Flicker!! \o/
do you find any content in the last 3 pages to be interesting or alignment indicative?

Thanks!

So far, not a lot seems AI to me. The only things I really feel right now are:

• - Elsa seems towny (in an "aggressively try to solve the game ASAP even though that feels silly to me" way).
  - Toogeloo's reveal of role PM info also seems towny.
  - Cheeky is towny? I don't know if this is a gut feeling, or if I just want it to be true because of her avatar or something. (The same could be said about you, too, tw.)

I also lol'ed at Toranaga's Yugioh reference, but I'm not sure if that's what you mean by interesting...

Pedit: Tora seems towny in defending Elsa, too.

Pedit2: FWIW, I'm probably not gonna try to sort RC this game unless I have to (at Mylo/Lylo). I've seen enough to know that I don't know anything when it comes to his play.

[Flicker]

VOTE: toranaga

baa

Why?

Pedit: Meant to post this ~ 30 minutes ago, but they had a fire drill in my apartment building. Will catch up on everything between then and now.

[Flicker]

I made a yugioh reference? lmao

14 - Yes, here.

why is Tora's defence of Elsa towny fypov? do you strongly disagree with RC's call that it's TMiey?

If I understand Tora's argument, it's "don't scumread Elsa for this, that's BS," which feels like an intensely principled town thing to do for me. I don't see it as TMI; I can easily see why Tora would want to protect his strongest town read, in addition to pointing out the principle of the thing. Also, from my observations of other games RC has been in, people tend to be more forceful with him, either in response to or anticipation of his own forcefulness. (Nothing necessarily wrong with forcefulness, FTR, although it's not usually my jam.)

{the worst, toranaga, flicker}

VOTE: Flicker

Please elaborate.

Toogeloo's reveal of role PM info also seems towny.

How is it different than my bringing it up?

They only brought it up in response to me.

Theirs was more specific and potentially revealing, and it seemed like too big a risk for scum to want to take (because who's to say that all the role PMs look alike?). Your post could have just meant you lacked familiarity with the show or a particular character, which is NAI.

Pedit: If Reavers are town, my name's Joss Whedon.

[Flicker]

Toogeloo's reveal of role PM info also seems towny.

Why was that towny but not chickadee doing the same thing first?

Chickadee already asked, and I answered here.

Also, I can answer how I know TW, if you want. (I know some people don't like others answering questions not directed at them.)

[Flicker]

In almost 15 total years of playing forum mafia, I don't think I've ever used the vote thing. I type almost everything from quick reply lol.

Pro tip: You can use v in place of b for quick vote tags (so, [ v ], etc.).

[Flicker]

Please do or we'll have roast duck for dinner.

Actually, now that I think about it for more than two seconds, I'm not 100% sure I can? But I can give you a hint: check my signature.

[Flicker]

Oh ok. How experienced are you in mafia?

Not very. My wiki's 99% up-to-date, if you want to see specifics. (I just haven't added this game yet, otherwise it'd be at 100%.)

[Flicker]

Thanks so much. How do you feel about TW at the moment?

I feel okay about him. I think him prodding me to post more is towny. I know I have a tendency to feel better/worse about someone based on if they're town/scumreading me, so I'm trying to be wary, though.

[Flicker]

Something between flicker/TW definitely feels weird to me.

Is one of us weirder (scummier?) than the other?

Pedit: You basically answered this by townreading me.

Can you elaborate on why TW and NSG are in your ??? bucket?

I think flicker is town. I like his townread on me cause there's nuance there. he is also the only person who understood what my read was re: elsa, or at least the only one who expressed it.

*Her, thanks.

[Flicker]

VOTE: BuJaber

I don't like how he's shading RR without voting them and trying to push through a lynch so quickly when we have more than 13 days left to make a decision. I also know from having followed much of Secret Hitler that he can seem really towny and reasonable while actually being top scum (i.e. Hitler).

[Flicker]

@NicoRobin and randommidget

- Are you caught up? Do you have any reads on people you'd care to share (that you haven't already)?

@TPFKAP

- Where are you?

Also, for what little it's worth, here are my notes on everyone so far.

Spoiler: Barely a reads list at all

.

Vague towny pile

(not in any particular order, which could include any strength of town from 1% to 100%):

Chickadee, CheekyTeeky, northsidegal, Reasonably Rational, Toogeloo, Toranaga

Null/conflicted pile

:

RadiantCowbells,* the worst, Thor665, Malakittens, TPFKAP, Skygazer, randommidget, Elsa Jay**

Vague scummy pile

(same deal as the town pile):

BuJaber, NicoRobin

---

*Probably a permanent resident, but I'll sheep other people's read on him if there's a reasonable consensus
**Pedit: He was in the towny pile until his most recent posts

[Flicker]

@Chickadee

- Why aren't you voting anyone yet?

[Flicker]

For the record, the only thing I'll say in my defense right now(because again, defending against air is a waste of time) is you should probably wait until Drixx says what he has to say at least.

Oh, and I'm absolutely not claiming without his input. So, yeah.

-Cerb

I'd suggest you don't claim yet, period.

[Flicker]

Flicker is obviously wrong about me but not sure if that's AI. However her early reads are kinda weird to me. But she used the cop out of saying it's anywhere from 1-100% strength which makes it nice and non-commital. Like what are you townreading Chick for already? Tw? Toogle?

- I liked Chick's question for me and her response, as well as her read on the RR wagon.
- TW's in my null/conflicted pile (I want him to be town, I like his defense of me/push on NSG, but could it be pocketing?).
- Toogle I already talked about, in 95 and 179, and nothing after that has made me question that read.

Pedit:

- NSG's scumread on me in 247 felt like self-conscious/overly analyzing town, rather than scum. The character of it felt pretty different from everyone else's reads at the time, when I feel like scum would be more likely to go with the casual flow that was already happening. I could see this as possibly scummy if she felt backed into a corner, but she volunteered the info in response to a relatively neutral comment, which seems way too awkward to be scum, even if she's bad at/doesn't like playing as scum.

[Flicker]

so what if I told you 70% of this player list sounds really towny and reasonable as scum?

Then it means my individual reads are going to be as useless as they always are... *sigh*

and that people wanting flips really early actually has town equity?

How? Why? I don't understand this at

all

.

why on:
Chickadee
Malakittens
Skygazer
Bujaber
Nico Robin

?

- Chick I went over already in post 608.
- Malakittens is sometimes forceful ("would you like to be lynched now or later?"), and I have a hard time not scumreading forcefulness, but I know it's NAI because a lot of people play like that. I also haven't liked any of her pushes on people.
- BuJaber I went over when I voted him, but I'll elaborate/clarify: His positions relative to RR and the RR wagon felt off to me. I threw in the Secret Hitler info mostly as a reminder to myself (and also because I'm still shocked by who the fascists turned out to be ).
- NicoRobin's post count is the lowest of any player who's checked in, and something about her jumping on the RR bandwagon felt like a "wolfy pop-in."

How about your read on Skygazer? Are you just memeing, or are you really scumreading her?

[Flicker]

"wolfy pop-in."

where did this choice of words come from just out of interest?

I think you might be the one I've seen use it the most, actually? If not from you, IDK where it's from.

[Flicker]

@Elsa

- Are you a lone Neutral Doctor, or do you by any chance have a Neutral Psychic/Assassin friend(/sister)?

[Flicker]

@Elsa

- Are you a lone Neutral Doctor, or do you by any chance have a Neutral Psychic/Assassin friend(/sister)?

Well I have no idea of this is a reference to the show, but that's a big no.

It is - the most likely character your role is based on has a tortured, magic waif assassin sister in that Classic Joss Whedon Feminism* vein. It might have made sense for you to be Masons together, but she could be out on her own, too (maybe it's pre-rescue?).

Anyway, I felt very clever for thinking of that, and now I'm slightly deflated.

*

[Flicker]

Flavor question: (I can look it up but it might be better to have it publicly in here) who are Serenity's allies? What is the hierarchy of Serenity? What about their allies?

RR said they would answer this, but they haven't yet (and neither has anybody else), so I'll take a stab at it.

For the vast majority of

Firefly

and

Serenity

, the crew of the ship are:
- Mal, the captain, a once-principled solider who lost a war and became cynical (but is still fairly principled)
- Zoë, the first mate, served with Mal in that same war
- Wash, the pilot and Zoe's husband, sometimes serves as comic relief
- Kaylee, the mechanic, very sunny personality
- Jayne, hired muscle, not the brightest crayon in the bunch
- Inara, basically a high-class prostitute, not-really-but-sort-of part of the crew (also has a will they/won't they with Mal)
- Simon, doctor from a privileged background, gives it up to rescue his sister (starts off as just a passenger)
- River, Simon's sister and (literally) tortured teen (starts off as just a passenger)
- Book, a preacher who's more than meets the eye (starts off as just a passenger)

Serenity's allies are... *crickets chirp*. IIRC, they don't really have any, at least straightforward ones. They tend toward business relationships or brief alliances, rather than steady ones.

They're definitely against the Alliance, though, which is the government and the side they lost the war to (it was a civil war). They also make a

bunch

of enemies, big and small.

Also, now that I've thought about it, there is at least one memorable bad doctor, so it's possible for there to be a scum doctor. I still think it's more likely for Elsa to be Simon, though. (The bad doctor's from the movie, which I tend to forget about/ignore, but it is listed first, so maybe the game is based more around it? IDK.)

[Flicker]

@NicoRobin and randommidget

- Are you caught up? Do you have any reads on people you'd care to share (that you haven't already)?

@the worst:

and that people wanting flips really early actually has town equity?

How? Why? I don't understand this at

all

.

[...]

How about your read on Skygazer? Are you just memeing, or are you really scumreading her?

I'd still like answers to these questions, too.

[Flicker]

i think i also asked tw a question but im on mobile

Was it post 712?

[Flicker]

Also, Inara definitely confirms theres a roleblocker, especially since I cant be RBed.

What would Inara's possible role(s) be, though?

[Flicker]

Also, Inara definitely confirms theres a roleblocker, especially since I cant be RBed.

What would Inara's possible role(s) be, though?

Or, do you think Inara

is

the roleblocker?

[Flicker]

Well either Jailkeeper, Roleblocker, or Rolestopper. If theyre scum, probably the Rolestopper type. It's a long shot there, especially if she's a love interest for the main character.

So my bet is Rolestopper if scum, maybe Disloyal Roleblocker if town?

I'd say there's a 0% chance Inara is scum, FTR.

[Flicker]

that question was asked to throw you off, it's a pretty situational thing. subconsciously pushing for quicklynches is high scum equity, ergo really obviously pushing for quick lynches should always be considered "too dumb to be scum" in at least some respect. it felt like a pretty 2d read from you which is what prompted me to say it.

skyg is still probwolf

So BuJaber is too scummy to be scum in your opinion? I guess I could see that.

VOTE: Flicker

Why?

P.S.

VOTE: NicoRobin

I find her thread presence (or rather, lack thereof) highly unsatisfactory.

[Flicker]

Flicker what are your thoughts on NSGs push on you?

In short, it's a reach. I don't feel compelled to respond to it for now - I know I'll sound defensive and I hate that, and a lot of refuting it relies on self-meta, which I don't like reading from other people. Maybe if/when I'm in more danger I'll elaborate more, but also, if I'm the lynch today, whatever. I'd rather get mislynched now than be left for the game-ending mislynch. (OTOH, so far I seem to be better at scumhunting via associatives after a couple flips, but I'm really not confident in those reads or my ability to convince others to follow them.)

Pedit: I see you have another question for me, which I promise I'll get to later. I have to get to bed now.

[Flicker]

What do you think about TPFKAP's presence?

TPFKAP's (lack of presence) wasn't great, either, but I'll give her a pass for now and assume she's being genuine in having shown up late.

By contrast, Nico's posting bothers me because she was clearly present at the start of the game, had at least a little sense of what was going on, and then disappeared. Honestly, I half-hoped adding my vote to the pile would Beetlejuice her and reveal that she's been lurking and deliberately holding back (in a way that would definitely be scummy). I guess it's possible she's busy or overwhelmed with the volume of the game so far, but right now her ISO just seems really off. I'd also support a policy lynch for lurking, no matter what reasons she may have.

Did you catch up on the whole thread?

Was this directed at me? If so, yes - I only post when I'm completely caught up.

I'm okay with hearing your self meta(not even utilized as a defense mechanism, but in general), because I don't know you and how you perceive your town/scum behavior is helpful to me in setting expectations.

-Cerb

I'll quote from my most recent Newbie game, where the IC asked a question that dovetails with this:

3) Do you prefer hunting mafia or manipulating town, and why?

I've only rolled scum once (in Micro 805.1), but I wouldn't say I really got the opportunity to

play

as scum, so I don't know which I prefer. Playing as town for me is as exciting as it is stressful, but the excitement tends to peak early (like, day 1) and the stress tends to just build after that. Sometimes, that stress sort of paralyzes me and blocks me from posting (I'm very conflict-averse, which is a trait I'm hoping Mafia can help me overcome), and theoretically playing as scum would be easier in that respect.

To expand on that, I've been thinking about why I seem to be so consistently scum read, and I think it's because my neuroticism bleeds through everything I post, and people pick up on that as "overly careful = scummy." I don't know if I'd be even more careful/neurotic as scum, or if I'd swing toward the opposite direction and be more relaxed, but hopefully eventually I'll find out. I know in the game I played off-site where I was recruited as scum, I basically dumped all my anxiety in the scum PT, which definitely changed my attitude in-thread (I got quieter and quieter as that game went on, too, IIRC).

Another thing that I think is making my meta different this game, is that playing off-site, where people were more friendly with each other, made me sort of look at the game and playerlist differently, from a collection of potential suspects (which I think is why I came in hotter my previous games, and what I think NSG has seen I'm lacking and dubbed a "minor scumtell") to a group of potential allies. This is also the first game where I'm really familiar with anyone, much less multiple people, which has also shifted my approach this game. And modding has shifted my perspective, too.

[Flicker]

Considering that TPFKAP *literally Beetlejuiced* and also looks like an actual active lurk why are you not voting him and instead voting a slot you appear to agree looks like a likely flake out?

1) Where did TFPKAP Beetlejuice into the thread? I haven't interpreted any of her appearances like that.
2) I also wouldn't characterize her as an active lurker, at least not yet. Even if it was a case of active lurker vs non-active lurker, there's still slightly more in TFPKAP's ISO I like (post 738 and a general gut feeling).
3) I don't agree Nico's a likely flake out, just that it's a possibility.

[Flicker]

1. Are you kidding me?
viewtopic.php?p=10477815#p10477815
viewtopic.php?p=10477883#p10477883
That is 66% of his posting today, prior to that he acted like multiball was a confusing and new concept to place a meaningless vote, yet he's following enough of today to know instantly when he's voted? How do you define Beetlejuice exactly?

2. I can't argue with 'gut feeling' and I'll agree you noted his best post by far. If there had been any follow up on that or his stated reads in 962 or even just anything at all resembling that he gives a damn to find scum I'd be on board with you. But that is an empty and super shallow ISO despite being much larger than other ISOs.

3. Sounds like a po-tay-to po-tah-to to me. Want to make a wager on it? If the slot flakes you promise to sheep me the rest of the day, and if it doesn't I'll agree with your gut read on TKASAGSP? I'm game if you are.

1. Those two posts are less than 45 minutes apart, with another post from a few hours earlier on the same page. It's conceivable that TPFKAP skimmed the thread, saw a multiball reference, posted quickly, had to leave for a few hours, then came back and hung around for an hour. It would have been a Beetlejuice IMO if the posts were more hours or pages apart, or the first post in this sequence was replying to being voted/talked about.

2. Point taken about size-to-substance ratio.

3. I'm tempted, but I'll only agree if it changes to you sheeping me all day if Nico doesn't flake instead. Otherwise, it's too uneven of a deal.

[Flicker]

1. Do you disagree with me that it's odd that he is posting with confusion about multiball but apparently hanging around and active reading what's happening? You don't see any suspicion with that as a playstyle choice?

Any problem I have with this playstyle is connected to the lack of backreading, which I find confusing. I'm not sure what people gain out of engaging with people that makes it so good for scumhunting they don't need to also catch up on everything that's happened. But apparently that's not AI, since some people just don't backread (including you this game, apparently)?

[Flicker]

Can you link me that game?

I would really prefer not to, just because I try not to connect different accounts as much as possible. I'm not sure it would be all that helpful anyway, unless you have a lot of time on your hands - it's a few thousand nested comments, with no ISOs, and everyone changes their usernames at will to correspond with their current roleplay. I looked over some of it now to see if I could make heads or tails of it, and it's just a mess.

If you were still interested post-game, I could send you the link privately?

[Flicker]

Trying to equate his playstyle to mine is really weird - I clearly am not playing like him, nor have I advocated not understanding the game.
if you agree with me that his timing and confusion paired with keeping up on some things, but not all things is questionable - why are you arguing so hard that he's town off gut?

I'm not. I feel like these points are misrepresentations of what I've said, but I'm tired and my team got shut out today, so with all due respect, I'm done with this conversation.

[Flicker]

Did we confirm that slot is definitely porkens

Did we confirm that slot is definitely porkens

I can 100% confirm this, as this was confirmed in Labrynth.

~Nancy

i can also confirm TPFKAP is Porkens, unless Maplewood was lying to me. did not realize it was in doubt, really.

I can also confirm it’s porkens. It stands for The Player Formerly Known As Porkens

Something about this group of posts strikes me as a little off. Did we really need three people to confirm this info? Arguably NDS gets a pass for being the first one to answer, and Chick elaborating on what the initialism stands for is also helpful, but Chara's second-hand info (that they're not even totally confident in) helps how?

Then, going through their ISO, I found this:

hi all. rereading now, sorry for the wait.
want to say Rational's town just by skimming recent posts since i've replaced.

You can't

re

read unless you've already read. Is this a slip, revealing more information/awareness of the game than they're letting on? That strikes me as scummy.

VOTE: Chara

[Flicker]

I'm a Town Priest (probably Shepard Book). At least if I die first, it sort of fits narratively, plus my role's "power" is slightly burdensome for town. I was trying to breadcrumb with my emoji choice, but I guess nerd to books to Book isn't that straight-forward.

If you'd like, I can prove my role by trying (and failing) to hammer myself? Normally I wouldn't even gesture toward a self-voting because it's so anti-town, but it genuinely won't do a thing in this case. I checked with the mod, there's no repercussions for trying, either.

[Flicker]

As far as my vote on Chara, it was getting a little boring trying to pressure someone who seems immune to it, and that series of posts really did ping me as off. Was it a reach to scumread Chara for it? Maybe.

I definitely still think either Nico or TPFKAP would be a decent lynch today. I also wasn't defending TPFKAP, FTR, I was just objecting to Thor trying to steer me away from voting Nico using what I saw as an unfair characterization of TPFKAP's actions, that's all.

UNVOTE: until I check the votes to see which of Nico/TPFKAP is ahead.

[Flicker]

Ah, they're tied, but TPFKAP is voting Nico.

VOTE: TPFKAP, then.

[Flicker]

Flicker: mentioned what i knew of Porkens because i glanced at the thread and Chick's post is what i saw on the most recent page.
voting me for saying "reread" as a Freudian slip is rather funny, though. what benefit would there be to pretending i wasn't caught up?

Actually, Chick's post about TPFKAP came after yours, so you couldn't have been responding to her post on the subject? Unless you're talking about a different Chick post (which you failed to specify)?

IDK, it allows you more time without giving/faking reads, denies town information, lets you get the lay of the land for longer? I'm not as interested in the potential benefit to scum as the lack of benefit for a townie to withhold that they've read.

(Sorry, I'm phone-posting right now, so I'm a little all over the place in terms of organizing my responses.)

[Flicker]

I mean, what other priest-like characters are there in Firefly/Serenity, even? If I'm not Book, who on Earth would I be? And if Book's not town, what even is this game?

(And yes, to answer an earlier question I keep forgetting about, it's been a while since I've seen either. I used to be deep in the fandom stuff, though, which I'm relying on to carry me, but d'oh on forgetting Mr. Universe, assuming that's who you - RR? - were alluding to as a major ally in the movie.)

[Flicker]

Y'all could always quick-wagon someone else and I can prove I can't hammer anyone, either. Just sayin'.

[Flicker]

My flavor's redacted, of course. But seriously, who else could I be? Maybe I'm too confident in who I am, but nobody's lining up to prove me wrong yet, either.

Pedit: Yes Chara, it looks scummy, I know, whatever.

[Flicker]

RR, I feel like we're edging into dangerous territory near "don't quote your role PM," and I'm also not quite sure what you're asking/what you hope to gain from it, but I'll see if I can't paraphrase my role PM in order.

Flavor redacted
Priest, explanation of role (can't hammer)
No other power
Aligned with Serenity

Okay, I hope that doesn't get me modkilled. Does that answer your question?

[Flicker]

pedit: So Flicker, there are zero flavory things like "As a man of the cloth, you would never hang someone yourself. You can not cast the hammering vote on a wagon" or some shit like that? It's just "You a priest, you can not hammer"?

Correct, there's no flavor, just basically, "You're a priest, no hammer for you, other votes are fine."

[Flicker]

@Jingle

: I think you forgot Gamma Emerald.

[Flicker]

Hey, flicker. Feel free to quickhammer whatever wagon hits L-1 first to prove your role.

Okay, sure. Looks like it could be Bujaber, but if TPFKAP starts to edge up, I'd need to unvote first.

(Sorry I haven't said much else since my role claim - I'm swamped with school. I want to re-read the thread, hopefully tomorrow, to see if I can contribute anything else, though.)

[Flicker]

Since TPFKAP is getting close to L-1, and I can't prove my role if I'm on the wagon before the hammer, I'll unvote for now.

UNVOTE:

I'm willing to switch votes with someone else to get the lynch through after that, though, so consider TPFKAP to functionally still be at L-2.

[Flicker]

VOTE: BuJaber

Good idea, Jingle.

[Flicker]

Here goes nothing...

VOTE: TPFKAP

[Flicker]

If it helps, Elsa, I keep nervously reading my role pm to make sure I didn't mess up...

[Flicker]

I also feel a little nervous trusting everyone off-wagon not to quickhammer once the next VC is posted, but I gotta go to bed.

[Flicker]

I'm a little worried by Jingle wanting to leash Elsa to me. Possible pocketing paired with nullifying the doctor? Or a fellow townie just

really

confident I'm town?

Also, my first instinct was to say, "No, don't save me, I'm a lousy player who's not worth the effort!" But, given the possibility of having so few town (at least compared to the standard 7:2 or 10:3 town/scum ratios I'm familiar with), I guess I shouldn't be so willing to die.

Similarly, I wanted to come into today voting for Nico as a policy lynch, but if there could be as few as 9 town, we don't have as much room for mislynches.

Because I’m pretty sure Nico is River. I could be wrong though.

What makes you think that?

(P.S. I really did mean to re-read the thread, but school stuff came up, and I probably need to prioritize that more for a while, so I'm scrapping that plan. Maybe if I'm still alive Day 3, but no promises.)

[Flicker]

@Flicker: Please ask the moderator if you can hammer in mylo/lylo.

Okay, I just did. I'll let you know when I get the answer.

Pedit: Since I'm already being so accommodating, sure, I'll sheep Thor for now.

VOTE: Nancy Drew Shogunate

[Flicker]

Update: Mod says yes I could hammer, and that generally,

all

abilities related to voting would be nullified in Mylo/Lylo, too.

[Flicker]

I was kind of relying on re-reading the thread to get a better sense of the game, but I'll share my updated reads list, I guess.

(CheekyTeeky)
(Bujaber, Jingle, Toogeloo)
(Chara, Nancy Drew Shogunate, Reasonably Rational, Thor665)
(Chickadee, Gamma Emerald, McMenno, northsidegal)
(Malakittens, NicoRobin)
-----
(Elsa Jay)

I feel pretty strongly that Cheeky's town. Her play this game reminds me a lot of nancy in Newbie 1881: pushing and interacting with everyone, asking questions and sharing thoughts in a way that feels open and honest, and even the way she's flip-flopped reads (including on me) is giving me deja vu a little. I'd almost be willing to stake the game on this read.

I felt like Bujaber's vote progressions away from my wagon on Day 1 would have been a bad scum move (my wagon was still viable the first time he changed his vote from me to someone else). There's also a sort of tone/stubbornness/something that reminds me of so many players when they're town.

Toog's roleclaim boosted my read strength on this slot, but I also think the stubbornness around lynching Elsa and role PM info reveal are towny. And that's not TMI, it's just based on an openness to sharing info and a recklessness/unthinkingness that seems more common to town. Also, the paraphrasing that Toog used matches my role pm fairly well; if I gave away too much information at the time, it was that I'm also town.

Jingle's also engaging fairly well and keeping his eyes on the full playerlist (although it's starting to remind me of Irrelephant's play in Newbie 1863 a bit, which is worrisome). He also makes a lot of good points, including about NDS' current wagon, which I'm no longer comfortable being on.

UNVOTE:

The third tier is null-town/not quite sure how or if I can read these players. I haven't played with hydras before, Chara replaced into RC's slot when RC is a giant question mark to me, and Thor's godhood is well established. I hope they're all town but realistically, I'd guess about two of all my townreads are wrong at this point.

The fourth tier is null/null-scum. In particular, I took Chickadee claiming Nico as River to be a soft mason claim, but whether they're paired scum or town (if they're even paired at all or Chick is just trying to take Nico down with her?) isn't something I feel like I can say either way.

The last tier is scum. Nico I've gone over, but skimming Mala's ISO I kept getting pinged - there's a tone and use of language that feels a little forced, and a lot of comments/posts that don't amount to much or seem like they'd be easy for scum to make.

Pedit: Oh, good, Tor's back, I can move NDS from null to null-town.

[Flicker]

@Mod

: Can you please fix the tags in 2258? It's making the posts after it look a little funny. Thanks in advance!

[Flicker]

Just to add to the skeptical pile-on... wouldn't 7:48 am CT be nearly an hour

before

NDS posted 1908? (Or does Chick not live in a place with DST?)

[Flicker]

Just to add to the skeptical pile-on... wouldn't 7:48 am CT be nearly an hour

before

NDS posted 1908? (Or does Chick not live in a place with DST?)

Realized I could confirm this by temporarily changing my board time zone, and yup, NDS posted 1908 at 8:39 am CST.

[Flicker]

*CDT

[Flicker]

@Flicker vote with us.

Frankly, I'd rather vote Malakittens, but I don't want to be a lone, unproductive voter, and it's not like I have anywhere better to vote, so okay.

VOTE: McMenno

(In all of Chick's claiming excitement, this slipped my mind, sorry.)

[Flicker]

Gladly!

VOTE: Malakittens

[Flicker]

Back to work stuff, I do still like the fact that you caught this, and I think it really means you should probably do what Drixx asked, if you haven't already, because you're going to be one of the people I expect to catch what's there to see.

Did this btw. Kinda wish I'd just waited for the big reveal.

Is this about me? Is it a good or a bad thing? I feel like I should have an idea of what Drixx is talking about, but I don't and it's making me nervous.

Pedit: Oh, what?

[Flicker]

Maybe all it does is confirm us to people who have the same thing and give strong evidence of Scum!Flicker. Maybe we get more out of it. I dunno ... I thought about it all day and I couldn't think of a better way to leverage it.

@RR

: Are you or were you actually scumreading me? If so, why? Because the series of quotes below make it seem like you shouldn't be able to automatically scumread anyone based on your role PM theory, otherwise town would be outrageously small.

Assuming universal formatting for town role pms, we could pseudo conf ~four players.

We have flavor that gives the motivation for our role. I would expect at least 5 or 6 of the characters on the ship to have something very similar to ours.

[Flicker]

VOTE: McMenno

I'm busy for most of today, but I agree that it doesn't make sense to go after a claimed Lyncher, so I'll move back here.

[Flicker]

I'd also like NR to be replaced

Not sure how I feel about Ari's posting so far. I may just be primed to dislike him because I find his avatar extremely irritating, though.

[Flicker]

I agree that wagon consolidation is definitely where we need to be right now.

Says one of the 7(!) players who isn't voting right now...

[Flicker]

I agree that wagon consolidation is definitely where we need to be right now.

Says one of the 7(!) players who isn't voting right now...

Whoops, 6 - I missed that Elsa wasn't voting before. I assumed he moved his vote from somewhere else.

(Plus, it's really only 5 considering Nico is a non-entity.)

Pedit: Ohh, I just now got why a mason wouldn't want to be voting. Fair enough, then.

Honestly, except for the claim I'd consider voting Toog right now. Sometimes "too scummy to be scum" is just scum.

[Flicker]

I literally just realized the value of crumbing HoB as HoB. I feel dumb.

Care to explain it to me, then?

[Flicker]

I literally just realized the value of crumbing HoB as HoB. I feel dumb.

Care to explain it to me, then?

They had a traitor that didn't know their identity. If we assume that they were told their traitor wasn't told their identity, then signalling to them that NR was HoB would mean that the traitor could actually protect them.

Ohh, okay, yeah, got it. For some reason, I interpreted "they don't know your identity" into "they don't know you exist at all." "They don't know your identity (but they know you exist)" makes more sense.

VOTE: Tails

[Flicker]

Oh

come on!

I went through all the effort of making a campaign to get an actual player in that slot but we're not even letting them live past today?

I campaigned specifically so the player who joined was either 1: good enough to get NKd instead or 2: helped town out.

Sorry. :/

Sometimes a scum slot is just a scum slot, though. Nico being a HoB could also explain why she was so quiet - trying to prevent any associatives with her partner.

[Flicker]

Because if that's her full role she's glorified VT

Bingo.

[Flicker]

I thought you shared it already? I remember the 2 videos being posted in-thread awhile ago.

No, that was Toogeloo (2309).

[Flicker]

who did tails replace in for?

NicoRobin.

[Flicker]

@Mod: I'm V/LA until the 30, thanks.

I'm sorry I haven't been posting much. I'm a little lost in terms of the number of players, the format of the game (I've only played in opens to one degree or another), and not having time/mental energy to reread. I'm also getting to the part of the semester where there are more frequent and more difficult assignments. (I also know these look like sad excuses that won't change anyone's read on me - nor should they.)

I will say, I'm pretty much on the lynch I want to be on, but I'll consolidate wherever. Given the limitations on the number of town kills in one day/night cycle, I might even consider voting for myself and/or letting you guys lynch me, given my lack of a positive town role and my overall lower skill level. I know that self-voting/asking for your lynch if you're town is basically verboten on this site, but we definitely need to get a lynch in today, and if that means I take the hit, oh, well. At the very least, it will throw out RR's theory about my role PM.

I can understand a little of the perspectives of people scumreading me, and normally if I had the time I'd bust out a nice wall going point by point to give my perspective/point out flaws in your cases, but I have a paper due tomorrow, and I can't afford to waste the mental effort on that. If anyone wants input from me that's relatively quick for me (questions/clarifications/etc.), I'll be around working on my paper for the next few hours.

Pedit: I mean, RR's assumptions about the role PMs are clearly wrong (but kind of understandable from their POV), and I'm not sure exactly what they mean by my reluctance to claim? I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting, but if you link/quote the specific post(s) and I have time I'll come back to it later tonight.

[Flicker]

I think you townread me and are pushing a mislynch on lhf.

LHF? Is this a mistaken auto correct, or am I missing something?

[Flicker]

Anyway, I'd like those that expressed interest in an Ari lynch to either get on that wagon, explain why they'd not vote Ari, or to vote a wagon that has a chance of going through today. I'll claim in a few hours if I need to. But I'd rather not.

Like I said, I'll vote to lynch whoever. If Ari becomes viable, I'll move there. If I find your full claim compelling/reasonable, I'll stop voting you (for today).

I'd prefer if you claimed ASAP, though, so everyone has a chance to see and talk about it before deadline.

Spoiler: Deadline timer, so I have it in my ISO

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00)

(Not gonna respond to the V/LA stuff, because it's not productive and it'll just make me mad. Just noting it, so it's clear to everyone I saw it.)

[Flicker]

@Ari:

Can you confirm if you get a vengekill whichever way you die (lynching, nighkilling, vigs, etc.)? Sorry if you said already and I missed it.

B/c if Jingle's right, then shouldn't we avoid lynching you so you have at least one more flip to work with?

[Flicker]

@A50: I...feel like that number of 3 should not have been given to us...

Nope. It's the number above the threshhold. If he'd said 4 it would have meant something.

Umm no.

He said 3 non town players.

With each faction considered separately.

That means there are, at most, 3 non-town factions that are not aligned with one another. It's small, but it is a thing. Unless I'm just misreading it.

-Cerb

It could just as easily be 2 from one faction and 1 from another.

[Flicker]

Why not?
Not getting rid of the competition still goes against their eventual win!

Actually, it's heavily implied/explicitly stated by the win condition that different scum factions can win together:

4-

The game ends when either all threats to town have been eliminated or all town members have been eliminated.

[Flicker]

@A50: I...feel like that number of 3 should not have been given to us...

It's the least number above two.
3

or more

non-town players can die, provided that no more than 2 are of the same faction.

@Cheeky:

No, that's not what the mod said.

[Flicker]

@Ari:

What, no, don't shoot Cheeky or RR! I was gonna vote you, but not if you're gonna make a mistake like that...

I'd shoot in the unclaimed/unsofted pool - which I believe is just Thor, Nancy, and Light at this point.

I'm gonna go down the whole list again, just to be sure:

Toogeloo - Lightning Rod
Jingle - Mason w/Gamma
Tails - Bodyguard
Chara - softed town something via role PM convo?
Nancy Drew 39 - nothing?
Chickadee - flavor cop
Flicker - priest
Thor665 - nothing?
BuJaber - softed town something via role PM convo?
CheekyTeeky - softed town something via role PM convo
Light Ethos - nothing?
Elsa Jay -

Neutral

Town Aesthetic Bulletproof Doctor
Reasonably Rational - softed town something via role PM convo
Malakittens - lyncher
Gamma Emerald - Mason w/Jingle

[Flicker]

@Ari:

If you promise to shot only in my short list, I'll vote you now. Otherwise, I gotta go and may not (/probably won't?) be back in time for deadline.

Light Ethos replaced McMenno replaced Skygazer, btw. The three of them combined have less posts than I do (okay, by two now, but it still counts). Might be a "safe" shot to take in terms of getting rid of a low-performing slot (even if it's kind of a cruddy thing to do to Light.) Nancy's the most consensus-y of the three, if you really feel like you need that, though.

[Flicker]

@Ari:

If you promise to shot only in my short list, I'll vote you now. Otherwise, I gotta go and may not (/probably won't?) be back in time for deadline.

Light Ethos replaced McMenno replaced Skygazer, btw. The three of them combined have less posts than I do (okay, by two now, but it still counts). Might be a "safe" shot to take in terms of getting rid of a low-performing slot (even if it's kind of a cruddy thing to do to Light.) Nancy's the most consensus-y of the three, if you really feel like you need that, though.

This offer's only good for about 4 more minutes, btw.

[Flicker]

VOTE: Aristophanes

That's L-1. (I know the vote count's right there, but just to be crystal clear.)

Good night and good luck.

[Flicker]

First off, high fives to Ari on that vengekill - great choice.

Next, Thor's role PM means he was an SK, right? Anybody want to claim his kill?

Finally, are we doing a mass claim today?

[Flicker]

First off, high fives to Ari on that vengekill - great choice.

Next, Thor's role PM means he was an SK, right? Anybody want to claim his kill?

Finally, are we doing a mass claim today?

Thor was obviously scum to anyone who has played with him in even a couple games. I mean ... I called it with certainty and my standard for certainty is really high.

I'm not 100% convinced there would be only one reaver, but it definitely is an SK win con. At first it appeared unfair but I think the warning is meant to get him to realize that if all of us who are aligned with Serenity are killed, then he would lose because of the other scum and thus he should be motivated to try and find and kill them first.

I'm not sure a mass claim is a great idea with 3 flipped scum and only 1 flipped town. I mean ... I suppose it should be considered given how many people have vomited claims already but ...

~D

If you compare Thor's PM to Light's (the kill I was congratulating Ari on, if that wasn't clear), Thor's definitely not partnered, anyway. The idea of there being another Revear out there is intriguing, though. I wonder - is it possible that this game has only one group scum (HoB), and multiple (lone) SKs? Seems unlikely but not impossible. I still think it's more likely there's one other group scum (Niska's crew, probably).

I'm also wary of a mass claim, but I feel like some people were set on doing it today, so I'm wondering if those people (Jingle? Other people I can't remember?) still want to.

[Flicker]

Toogeloo - Lightning Rod
Jingle - Mason w/Gamma
Tails - Bodyguard
Chara - softed town something via role PM convo?
RightKnight - Town Enabler
Chickadee - flavor cop
Flicker - priest
BuJaber - softed town something via role PM convo?
CheekyTeeky - softed town something via role PM convo
Elsa Jay -

Neutral

Town Aesthetic Bulletproof Doctor
Reasonably Rational - softed town something via role PM convo
Malakittens - lyncher
Gamma Emerald - Mason w/Jingle
TPFKAP - flipped HoB traitor
Aristophanes - flipped Jayne/vengeful town
Light Ethos - Flipped HoB #1
Thor665 - flipped SK

I think these are the claims/flips at this point.

@Chickadee:

Of these, I think I'd want Tails checked, because bodyguard kind of seems like an easy fake claim. And with Ari flipping as Jayne, I'm not sure there's another ship character that fits bodyguard that hasn't already been claimed by someone else (Elsa as Simon, either of Jingle/Gamma as Zoe).

Or maybe pick BuJaber or one of the other soft claims? That whole discussion went over my head, but maybe I'm just a dummy and it wasn't that hard to catch onto for scum.

[Flicker]

I copped tails’ predecessor yesterday Flicker

Oh, right, sorry.

I would definitely cop in the softed claims, then, unless you think there's a full claim that's suspicious as town.

[Flicker]

Day Cop Jingle or Gamma, clear two slots.

Isn't it better to hunt for scum than clear town at this stage, though?

[Flicker]

pedit: they aren't clear, Flicker.

They claimed masons, though (Zoe/Wash, more specifically). Are there plausible non-town/scum characters that comes to mind as masons in this universe for you?

Also, Jingle's one of my strong townreads at this point. I feel like checking him or Gamma is a waste when we could be looking for another of the scum/3P who seem to outnumber us.

[Flicker]

Buj probably Mal/AW from that.

AW as in Atherton Wing?

Pedit: I doubt it's Harrow - seems like too obscure/small a character for this game.

[Flicker]

So...how did Elsa lose her BP?

He hid behind Thor last night.

[Flicker]

RK: Enabler of high utility town power. Probably solved by massclaim? Strange claim flavorwise. Strange claim anything wise.

That's all 13 players. We're still missing a Kaylee, but Either Tails is Simon or one of Chara/CT/RR/RK is.

I think Kaylee could make sense as an enabler. A mechanic helps keep the ship functional; an enabler helps keep the power role functional.

Pedit: In what world does a bodyguard make sense for Kaylee?

[Flicker]

I understand your position. However, being as you are one of the unclaimed players, you have a severe bias to be taken into account. Which is why I'm specifically looking for Flicker/Chick/Gamma/Toog's opinions.

I'd rather not mass claim today. I feel like the remaining vagueness is potentially benefiting town just enough to leave it until tomorrow (even though that could give scum more time to craft a plausible fake-claim).

But, being one of the least experienced players here, I don't think my opinion should have much weight, TBH. Press the other three to weigh in, and if you agree to a mass claim, I'm good with it.

Pedit: Badger as town makes no sense, and I think the lyncher is more likely to be the Operative. Especially because I don't think Niska would have redacted flavor, per the mod's guiding principle that "if they claimed their flavor they'd be in trouble."

[Flicker]

Niska +

big guy that gets kicked into the engine

Crow* seem like a good duo for another (the other?) scum team, 16 + 17. Of course, this relies on Tails being Simon and a bodyguard, which, if I'm a priest which is super-obvious for my flavor, why would Simon

not

be a doctor?

In fact, Crow seems like a perfect role to be a bodyguard to me, except it makes about 0 sense with the flavor copping.

Still, I'm tempted to claim intent to L-1 Tails so we can get this flip over with. I'm not going to, because we should probably use at least 48 hours more of this day in case we're wrong, but I wanna.

*(I just remembered! I'm so proud of myself for not having to rely on the wiki for this! I promise I've been a huge fan for many, many years, though. )

[Flicker]

I think most of us are just ready for this flip and day to be over, so...

VOTE: Tails

This is L-1.

[Flicker]

Claims:

Spoiler: Spoiled for readability

Reasonably Rational - Modified Motion Detector
Jingle - Masons with Gamma
Gamma Emerald - Masons with Jingle
Chickadee - Flavor Cop
Flicker - Priest
CheekyTeeky - Compulsive 1-Protect Doctor
Chara - Loved
RightKnight - Doctor Enabler
BuJaber - Seraph Knight (for Mal)
Toogeloo - 1-shot Lightning Rod
Elsa Jay - Neutral 1-Shot Bulletproof Hider
Malakittens - Neutral Lyncher (of Mal)

Flips:

Spoiler: As a reminder

Aristophanes - Town Vengeful (Jayne)
Light Ethos - Scum Jailkeeper (Hands of Blue #1)
Tails - Scum Jailkeeper (Hands of Blue #2)
TPFKAP - Scum Traitor (Hands of Blue Traitor)
Thor665 - Serial Killer (Reaver)

Flavor spec:

Spoiler: My best guess of the crew & passengers

Mal - Reasonably Rational
Zoe and Wash - Jingle and Gamma Emerald
River - Chickadee
Book - Flicker
Simon - CheekyTeeky (even though her role PM has "member of the crew," which doesn't seem to fit)
Kaylee - Chara
Inara - BuJaber
Jayne - Aristophanes

I think Elsa Jay, Toogleoo, and RightKnight should be the lynch pool for today. I'm willing to let Malakittens live for one more day at least, but if there's a tomorrow I think she should be added to the lynch pool, too.

Of those three, I'm conflicted on which one's the best lynch. Elsa's been squirrelly on his role all game, Toog's done some quickhammering, and much of RK's posting seems kind of empty/redundant to me. On the other hand, Toog and RK's roles seem like they have to be town, and Elsa's role doesn't seem like "a threat to town." So... maybe we do have to lynch Malakittens (threat to Mal = threat to town)?

Pedit: Chick could have been jailed N2 by Tails; maybe he was no-kill gambiting to strengthen his fake claim? And a jailing at night wouldn't prevent Chick from using her cop during the day, right?

[Flicker]

I just thought of a possibly ridiculous, possibly great idea - we could no lynch today and see what happens tonight. That could resolve whether there's still any night killing roles left, or whether Mala is the only "threat to town" left. I know Cheeky's compulsive, but she could declare her target or be on someone who's unlikely to be NK'ed (like Mala or Elsa or, frankly, me).

[Flicker]

hat could resolve whether there's still any night killing roles left, or whether Mala is the only "threat to town" left. I know Cheeky's

i already have confirmation from the mod that a lyncher would not constitute a threat to town.
so Mala would only be a threat if she isn't a lyncher, which i find unlikely.

Okay. I wasn't sure that's what you meant before with "standard 3P win condition." So that likely means there is still a night killing role out there, and my no lynch plan is ridiculous.

Pedit: N1 no kill, N2 Thor, N3 no kill - Tails couldn't have jailed and killed, so if he did jail Chick (which seems unlikely, TBH) it does confirm another killing role. Hmm...

I'll find RR's claim post in a sec, too, RK.

[Flicker]

RR claimed in 4282.

[Flicker]

@RK:

I didn't take any actions N1 (or any other night). RR's action N1 was redirected to Toog, which explains the outgoing (LR) and incoming (every redirected action that night).

[Flicker]

@RK:

I didn't take any actions N1 (or any other night). RR's action N1 was redirected to Toog, which explains the outgoing (LR) and incoming (every redirected action that night).

Which you would have known/been able to figure out if you'd read the next post RR made (4283)...

[Flicker]

@RK:

[...] I would treat the Lightning Rod as "action

targeting

everyone" if that makes any sense.)

I think this means the LR registers as an outgoing action.

Pedit: Yeah, I'm starting to get a little paranoid of Jingle and Gamma too. It seems a little unlikely for Zoe and Wash to just be Masons and nothing else, IMO.

[Flicker]

That would be taking flavor too far. Masons in mafia is a strong enough role as is. Golden rule of theme games is it still has to be a mafia game in the end.

There's plenty of reasons to want to confirm Jingle and Gamma but saying they should be more based on flavor is a bad reason to suspect them. Especially coming from the person who claimed VT with priest only and we have chara claiming VT with loved only.

Yeah, I know it's not a good reason, that's why I phrased it the way I did. I'm just nervous because basically all the claims seem plausible, and I'm not sure if we're dealing with another scum team or not.

Pedit: Elsa claimed to hide behind Thor on N2, but if he actually killed Thor N2, that would make sense. Honestly, this does feel like the best lynch to me today.

VOTE: Elsa Jay

[Flicker]

Oooo interesting cop on RK. This is what I got.

My immediate reaction is "this is scum." IIRC, this is from right before Simon saves River in the movie, when the doctor's experimenting on/torturing her. More specifically, this scene is framed as a video being watched by the Operative (therefore RK = the Operative?).

But, given how the Simon/River video had such a nice tone for the HoB cop, IDK.

If RK is scum (especially a lone scum), though, it would help make sense of Nancy jumping back into a hydra after Tora left. And like I already said, I have found their posting to be lacking - redundant, confused/wrong, and just weird at times, especially with the insistence that there is or could be a second doctor (and therefore someone's lying/withholding their full claim - are they maybe projecting because

they're

the liars?).

Pedit: How does this still fit with being a Doctor Enabler, exactly?

[Flicker]

Yeah, scratch what I said about Elsa, RK seems like a better lynch now. The only town role I can see with that result is Simon, and we have a better Simon claim already.

VOTE: RightKnight

[Flicker]

Yeah, scratch what I said about Elsa, RK seems like a better lynch now. The only town role I can see with that result is Simon, and we have a better Simon claim already.

VOTE: RightKnight

Is Simon the only doc in the story? Didn’t someone say there were multiple docs - not in the game but either in the series/movie?

Are there multiple doctors? Yes. In town roles? I'd say no.

There's the Alliance doctors that tortured River (they'd likely be scum), that one doctor on Miranda whose transmission the crew found (I think she'd be neutral at best), the background doctors on Ariel when they do the heist there (not important enough to include IMO, and neutral at best), the doctors they meet in Bushwacked who treat Book and the stranger who turns out to be a Reaver (also Alliance, therefore likely scum), and that's about it IIRC. I guess you could make sort of a sideways claim of doctor enabler based on The Train Job b/c the crew gives the medicine back? But then you'd have to be crew, and also that seems like an awfully long stretch.

Pedit: Institute docs getting murdered by the Alliance? Is this from the comics, or is my rusty memory failing me again?

Pedit2: I'm not entirely opposed to mercy lynching Mala, but I'd prefer a near-instantaneous night, which it seems like scum has incentive to not give us (and which the mod might not give us, either). It also seems like a sideways version of my no lynch plan from before, which was already established to be ridiculous. I don't think we should be so confident we can win this that we deliberately lynch outside our scum suspects.

[Flicker]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... N-uThDpaq3

Dr. Caron

Please, stop beating this dead horse. Everyone who's familiar with the flavor knows who and what you're talking about, and you're not going to be able to argue that somehow you, who seem to have no flavor knowledge, are actually right over us. If you want to keep going down this path for yourself until you think you have something, kindly contain in to your hydra PT.

Putting you on ignore now.

[Flicker]

I still need to get around to a balance analysis. I'm probably not doing that today.

Just to clarify - do you want to do this before N4?