A Story Revisited (Anything uPick): Day 6
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Jingle For Whom the Bell Trolls
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If jj ever uses his ability, his will be the only lynch I support on that day. No exceptions.In post 4134, Aristophanes wrote:Like Jingle, this is a seemingly huge overreation.
If you'd like to change my mind, give me a single scenario in which it is protown to have a portion of the playerlist unable to change their votes.This is a Parachute.-
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How do you find scum in a game of mafia?In post 4142, Nero Cain wrote:I mean, even if Mastina is town we could just rando gladiate and we'd be fine I think. There's literally no point in scum hunt and give the scum team information.
Is it dice tags? Cause that is genuinely what you're suggesting.This is a Parachute.-
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So... What you're saying is that if we're already going to lynch scum, the role helps us to lynch the scum we're already going to lynch.In post 4150, Aristophanes wrote:
When scum are he major wagons?In post 4144, Jingle wrote:
If jj ever uses his ability, his will be the only lynch I support on that day. No exceptions.In post 4134, Aristophanes wrote:Like Jingle, this is a seemingly huge overreation.
If you'd like to change my mind, give me a single scenario in which it is protown to have a portion of the playerlist unable to change their votes.
JJ, does it freeze future votes too or are they still moveable after they vote?
You see how that is literally 0 utility, right?
Compared to, we have 5 three vote wagons, he za waraji's and it becomes literally impossible to lynch. Compared to we run someone up and they claim a protown role, and JJ can paralyse. We no longer have a chance to lynch anyone else.This is a Parachute.-
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I agree. And if we had 10 more yous there wouldn't be an issue at all.In post 4154, Nero Cain wrote:
but I've been pushing my reads and giving my opinions on the game. I'm not the problem.In post 4147, Jingle wrote:How do you find scum in a game of mafia?This is a Parachute.-
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A summary of jj's play this game, from my PoV.
JJ defended mastina for role alone.
JJ pushed Vecna for having a post restriction, but backed down as soon as Vecna claimed IC.
JJ never followed up on the Vecna thing post IC claim retraction.
JJ dumped fuel on the fire that is NR.
JJ talked mechanics.
Despite the fact that nothing else stands out from his ISO, he has the most posts in thread. And he's been involved in everything that has caused the issues in this thread.
JJ's defense of mastina has been beating a dead horse. And while he's doing it, he's done nothing else of worth. It's also specifically not a reason to townread him because that stance is the perfect WK stance. It tells us nothing about his alignment.
The Vecna push was good. The lack of follow up when Vecna retracted is super scummy. There's no paranoia, nothing. All of the suspicions he had are suddenly gone, because "Oh, the post restriction was optional."
JJ's entire interaction with NR is low risk for him. No one is going to listen to NR's suspicions about him when she's faking guilties and that is 100% something scum jj would know. Better, his stance morphed from NR's inconsistencies are because she's terrible to NR couldn't fake a guilty on town like this to NR is good enough to tailor her meta to fool a single player when confronted with meta that shows his stance is wrong.
Spoiler: I linked this to him.
Again, no follow up. No reconsideration of his read. He just pivots to argue NR is scum for a different reason.
And yet, despite this being the summation of his ISO:
JJ is the most active by a large margin in the game that is suffering mostly because of thread clog and a lack of AI posting.In post 3834, jjh927 wrote:
Gee I don't knowIn post 3830, NicoRobin wrote:It's jjh/Jingle/Porkens/mastina scumteam.
Didn't you notice how whenever I try to pressure Porkens and/or mastina, jjh is always there to defend them in some way?
I wonder why that is?
Bonus points!~ This is not a towny usage of his ability!In post 4156, Aristophanes wrote:Like, jjh is quite towny for suggesting its usage here
Using mastina's gladiate is optimal mechanically. Even if you disagree with me, JJ doesn't. Provably, because he's only said it about 1000 times.
There are two possible results from him using his ability here. 1. We don't get to use the mislynch doctor. 2. We have less accountability for votes than we already did. Both of those are proscum.
And yet, he only brings up this plan when I've already mentioned that we should just scumhunt as though mastina doesn't exist.
JJ is scum.This is a Parachute.-
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Yeah, you see, saying I'm going to hammer anything that gets to L-1 is not more towny than hammering anything that gets to L-1. It's in fact pretty much the opposite.In post 4171, Gamma Emerald wrote:Here’s the thing: he gave a warning. That alone makes it more towny. Plus: it’s an RC Upick, so you really think this speculation of this being a pro-scum ability means jack shit?This is a Parachute.-
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Current reads, associatives not considered:
Town:
KuroiXHF
Chickadee
Mastina
Nero Cain
Creature
Nicorobin
Scum:
Aristophanes
Vecna
Northsidegal
jjh927
Needs additional sorting:
1) The MEME Men
3) Firebringer
6) Gamma Emerald
8) Skygazer
9) Varsoon
11) Invisibility
12) Porkens
13) Whemestar
15) Lady AngelThis is a Parachute.-
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Also, mastina and NR MIGHT be a mechanical 1v1. I'm townreading both of them independently. I'd like to know if they are a mechanical 1v1 because then I know I'm wrong, but I need to have Nico ask a question I've quoted like 5 times or have her flip so I can ask it publically to find out.This is a Parachute.-
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And I've told you why it isn't.In post 4190, Aristophanes wrote:I mean, I've told you why this is towny of jjh so yeah...
Sure, it might appear towny on the surface. But both possible outcomes are proscum.
Announcing you're going to do a proscum thing doesn't make it not scummy. It just means you can say "I warned you" when people go to lynch you afterwards. Which is scummy.This is a Parachute.-
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Why not use it here?
It makes it objectively harder to get a lynch on anyone not currently being wagoned. Current wagons: NR who jj is pushing and Mastina, who JJ is hard townreading. That means the odds that we hit a scumlynch if JJ is scum (hint, he's not scum with either of those two) is functionally 0%.
It makes it so that we can't use the gladiate to clear someone if we don't reach a consensus.
It means we have a high likelihood of No Lynching without any mechanical advantage gained.
It removes the accountability we do have for our lynches by artificially forcing mastina to hipfire or abandon her role for the day, with a handicap of anyone who doesn't unvote before his ultimatum being essentially useless for the rest of the day, feeding the thread apathy.
It apparently gets him towncred.
The other option, of course, is to hope he makes it to super late game to maybe get an autowin out of the role.
Both are options. Using the role at all is inherently a scum move.This is a Parachute.-
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In post 4244, jjh927 wrote:I don't really think he is.
He's doing similar kinds of mechanicsy shit as he did in this game, especially noting that I believe he was trying to push a mechanical pro scum!NR strat wrt mastina earlier which links the two together. I would also bring attention to this game as I was scum with Jingle there and him scumreading me after seeing my scumgame there is laughable
Yes. The game where you replaced in to a suspicious slot after a scumlynch in a super lategame and got lynched for not really doing anything is very different from this one. I can see how I should definitely be townreading your lack of real content now.
And me being focused on mechanics is completely null.
So you haven't had time to meta NR, but you abandoned the angle of "There's no way she would pull a stunt like this as town" and shifted to "She's doing this to manipulate meta for mastina" for what reason now?This is a Parachute.-
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You know what might convince me you were serious? A wagon.In post 4256, Creature wrote:Considering Jingle tooThis is a Parachute.-
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In post 4200, jjh927 wrote:I've not metadived NicoRobin yet because I had an important presentation to give yesterday, and if I was reading shit I should have been reading scientific papers. For what it's worth, I don't think I'd have been as distracted by this game as scum, because I find it a chore to play scumgames. You really should metadive me.
Your push changed drastically after I linked you the game. You claim to not have had the time to do meta on NR's slot. Occams razor tells me either you're lying about having read the game, or you're lying about whether your read is genuine. Town has no reason to lie about either of those things.In post 4259, Jingle wrote:And you've arrived at that conclusion by not reading the game I linked you. The same game, btw, that mastina linked later. Flail harder.This is a Parachute.-
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The mechanical things do have obvious answers, and not considering them is stupid.In post 4262, Nero Cain wrote:All I keep hearing from Jingle is "let me give you a question with an obvious answer and you have to defend against that obvious answer or I'm right." His posts are so pointed and manipulative.
Being pointed in pushing a scumread is how you get said scumread lynched.This is a Parachute.-
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You realize she literally linked the same game as I did, right?In post 4266, jjh927 wrote:My push changed drastically after Mastina made a defence of NRThis is a Parachute.-
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So you knew that NR was good at manipulating her meta when you told me that the game she was in seemed like a perfect match to what you needed to meta. Which means that it was already useless to you and you were lying about it being useful.
Like, all of this is literally proving my point that either you're lying about metaing her or you're lying about the reason behind changing your push.This is a Parachute.-
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I'm comparing two separate circumstances wherein her behavior is an almost identical match. The difference is the target of her rage. This was a perfect ecological sample, and yet also a bad approach to meta.
These are literally opposite viewpointsfrom you. Either that game is a perfect example from which to draw meta, in which mastina's meta defense is fine, or it's not. You've taken both directly contradictory stances, because you're not trying to read NR. You're trying to lynch NR.
I've explained why the motivation is the same (and NAI) and your response is that she's manipulating that meta. I neither care nor want to read enough games in the next two days to deal with tendencies.This is a Parachute.-
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My point being simply that this game and that game both show NR going off the rails and doing stupid shit because of a perceived persecution, showing a vulnerability in her character to tunneling and a propensity towards misapplying setup knowledge that implies she would be perfectly capable of doing the same thing here, as town?
What part of that is invalid?This is a Parachute.-
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A Story Revisited
Votecount 3.8675309:
Varsoon (5): Northsidegal, Shiro, Creature, Porkens, Skygazer
Mastina (4): Firebringer, Varsoon, Nero Cain, Whemestar
jjh927 (3): Nicorobin, Gamma Emerald,Jingle
Jingle (1): jjh927,
Firebringer (1):Mastina
Nicorobin (2):Lady Angel, Invisibility
Aristophanes (1): Chickadee
Porkens (1): Vecna
Vecna (0):
Northsidegal (0):
Chickadee (0):
Gamma Emerald (0):
Invisibility (0):
KuroiXHF (0):
Lady Angel: (0):
Whemestar (0):
Skygazer (0):
Creature (0):
Nero Cain (0):
The Meme Men (0):
Not Voting: Sora, Aristophanes, KuroiXHF
With 20 alive it's 11 to lynch.
The day will end in (expired on 2018-11-04 17:00:00).
UNVOTE:
Discounting additional hidden voting mechanics, if jj uses his power right now we literally cannot lynch anyone but Varsoon, and that would take unanimous agreement from everyone who is not voting.
Striked votes are blank unvotes, because they are theoretically still voting the person that they're on but want to be able to move.This is a Parachute.-
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Okay. You and kuroi are dead instead of pseudoconftown.In post 4207, Chickadee wrote:I want flips in this god damned game already.
How are we in a better position than just assuming you're town?This is a Parachute.-
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I would force the no lynch over compromising there.In post 4374, Firebringer wrote:
whats with you lamos who aren't on this.In post 4369, Jingle wrote:Mastina (4): Firebringer, Varsoon, Nero Cain, WhemestarThis is a Parachute.-
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So... Your wagon is a shitty policy lynch by your own admission.
Disregarding that the entire point of having people claim is to not lynch potentially powerful roles, that doesn't argue against the whole strong townread point.
Yes, I'm going to freeze my vote to a smaller wagon than the one I just unvoted to be able to compromise lynch. That sounds super smart. And yes. I'm the one who is constantly complaining about how one player hasn't solved the entire game for them.
As for your evidence:
In post 1750, RadiantCowbells wrote:KuroiXHF (6): Gamma Emerald, Nosferatu, jjh927, Innocent Children, Porkens, Mastina
Deadline No Lynches.In post 2678, RadiantCowbells wrote:Chickadee (7): Lady Angel, Mastina, Whemestar, KuroiXHF, Invisibility, jjh927, Gamma EmeraldThis is a Parachute.-
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Well, we're missing a Nightkill and the Night one kill was on a conftown via Desperado. So... that's a stupid question.In post 4386, Varsoon wrote:So who has mastina 'cleared'
And why aren't those players dead from nightkills?
Do you people even stop to think
Do you?This is a Parachute.-
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1) You're kidding yourself.
2) I'm hard townreading mastina.
3) Mastina is town and abusing the role is the protown option.
Objectively, my proposed method from a full day phase ago is better than your shitty policy lynch.This is a Parachute.-
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Yeah, I think he was rushed putting it together. He modconfirmed didn't have flavor for a No-Lynch.In post 4391, Firebringer wrote:if i was rc i would regret a lot of design choices of this game tbh. which is why i think he is lacking in the modding part but that is pure speculation.This is a Parachute.-
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In post 1905, RadiantCowbells wrote:So this game was actually heavily flavour driven in its development and I... didn't write a no lynch flavor.
So I'm going to skip the NL flavor wise and start the flavor later.
A No Lynch has occurred!
The next day will start 12:00 AM EST on the 29th of September. Send in night actions before then!This is a Parachute.-
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My towngame, ranked in order of skill:In post 4389, Firebringer wrote:i think ur over focus on role interactions is ur blind spot jingle.
and if i was scum i could run circles around you easily by bullshitting roles to get you to do what i want.
1. Setup.
2. Town Glue.
3. Town Leader.
4. Obvtowning.
5. Reads.
I'll own that. There are a handful of players I can read well consistently. The vast majority left the site a long time ago. I derptunnel on stupid all the time.
Mastina is possibly the only player on site that I know well enough to be this confident on who hasn't siteflaked. I literally can't remember the last time I misread mastina's play outside of GiF's fallout where I started out deathtunnelling her slot's previous occupant and then reversed my read just in time to be nightkilled. And yeah, even still, I'm planning around the cases where I'm wrong on someone who is so terrified of my ability at reading them that when ETL and I joined a game and randed town together they told the mod (also in this game) that scum literally had no chance.
As far as setup spec goes I don't mind claiming to be one of the best on the site. I'm not infallible. I'm not some magical god of breaking setups. But I'm damn good. And what I've argued is objectively the optimal town play from the information I've got.This is a Parachute.-
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I can work with this.In post 4399, Varsoon wrote:Since I've replaced in, though, every player's been so focused on the mechanics, mastina this, nico that and so it's been impossible for me to really engage without engaging there.
I dunno what to do to break free.
First, unvote so that you're not literally the only viable lynch if jj uses his scumclaim ability.
Second, do you have any real townreads?This is a Parachute.-
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5 clears then lynch mastina to confirm. If we get to a low number of players (13/14) with no scum lynched and less than 5 clears, lynch mastina anyway.
If scum shoots the clears, they're literally shooting in the pool of players we would have lynched anyway, while extending the viable use of mastina's role.
If scum shoots mastina, they've solved the contention and also confirmed the players in question.
If scum leaves that be, they've given us a townfirm pool that takes us to ridiculous levels of game solve.
If mastina is scum, we lynch her before we're close to worried about endgame AND there is presumably some amount of hidden power that town has to catch the other scum in the meantime. Given that there is no reason for claims, there's no chance that scum can use said claims to narrow down and eliminate townpower prematurely.
It's not complicated. It's not holding the thread hostage. It requires nothing more than not quickhammering. Incredibly high town EV.This is a Parachute.-
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Of those, Kuroi is replacing. Nero, Creature (new Nos) and I have given full reads lists, so looking at those and seeing where you agree and disagree is probably a good starting place. Additionally, Chick is a 'clear', so it's probably worth looking at her reads as well.
Of the players you aren't townreading, FB and mastina are the only really active posters. (Holy shit, we have like 6 active posters out of 20.) Why aren't you townreading them? Should you be if they are town?
Of the non active players, which ones do you expect to be active as town?This is a Parachute.-
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We have whatever other power town has to make up for all of the negative and proscum utility we've seen, we have a guaranteed scumlynch, we have a shitton of wagon information to analyze, and we still have several mislynches.In post 4407, Varsoon wrote:
So what if Mastina's scum and it's just a regular gladiate and not alignment-based at all?In post 4405, Jingle wrote:5 clears then lynch mastina to confirm. If we get to a low number of players (13/14) with no scum lynched and less than 5 clears, lynch mastina anyway.
If scum shoots the clears, they're literally shooting in the pool of players we would have lynched anyway, while extending the viable use of mastina's role.
If scum shoots mastina, they've solved the contention and also confirmed the players in question.
If scum leaves that be, they've given us a townfirm pool that takes us to ridiculous levels of game solve.
If mastina is scum, we lynch her before we're close to worried about endgame AND there is presumably some amount of hidden power that town has to catch the other scum in the meantime. Given that there is no reason for claims, there's no chance that scum can use said claims to narrow down and eliminate townpower prematurely.
It's not complicated. It's not holding the thread hostage. It requires nothing more than not quickhammering. Incredibly high town EV.This is a Parachute.-
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Jingle For Whom the Bell Trolls
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Jingle For Whom the Bell Trolls
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Sounds like you have a pretty good set of suspects to take a closer look at. Sounds like you have a pretty good set of townreads you can engage with over differences in opinion. Sounds like you have a pretty solid starting place for getting your head into the game.
And everyone else, the same process applies to you as well.
Additionally, if you're still worried that I'm just taking things for granted, allow me to share with you how deep the Jingle paranoia train goes. I'm seriously considering a possible balance solution of 6 godfathers and what town would need to have to counter that. Despite that, I haven't found a potential scumteam that my plan isn't decently equipped to fight (at least better than not following it) that isn't better served by already messing with the chain of clears.
And to be clear, I expect a single godfather out of this setup if my finger is on the pulse halfway as well as I think it is.This is a Parachute.-
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Jingle For Whom the Bell Trolls
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Jingle For Whom the Bell Trolls
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- Posts: 15159
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- Location: Texas
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Jingle For Whom the Bell Trolls
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- Location: Texas
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Jingle For Whom the Bell Trolls
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- Location: Texas
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Jingle For Whom the Bell Trolls
- For Whom the Bell Trolls
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- Posts: 15159
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- Location: Texas
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Jingle For Whom the Bell Trolls
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Jingle For Whom the Bell Trolls
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1) Stop beating a dead horse. Tell me why I'm wrong, succinctly, or STFU. Nobody town wants another 10 pages of mechanical discussion.In post 4422, Vecna wrote:
The mechanical implications of that are really weird though:In post 4411, Jingle wrote:FWIW, from not my perspective I'm the optimal clear.
Confirming town me confirms the presence of a loud doc in the game.
-Why have a town mastina-role and a town loud-doc in the same setup? Extremely broken at face value
-If the last point is still true; why have scum not used the power that can offset that balance to kill Mastina last night?
-Why on earth was this loud doc on you?
Leads me strongly to believe that one of several of the following has to be true:
-Either Mastina or the loud doc have to be scum
-Or scum was not trying to kill JJH but Mastina last night, and this is a scum jingle rolefishing.....
-Or scum decided to not kill Mastina, or any of her clears, to raise suspicion and mount a massive lynch attempt on Mastina today
-Or scum has a watcher-type role that is meant for them to eliminate any protectives on Mastina
2) Useless speculation is useless.
3) The least town question a player can ask in a game. This is literally blatant doc hunting, and people are somehow townreading him.This is a Parachute.-
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Jingle For Whom the Bell Trolls
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