Newbie 1920: North America [Endgame]

[teacher]

VOTE: persivul. Only scum show up that fast.

[teacher]

So this is my first non-IC newbie game. Welcome everyone, and skellen especially from our history. I had a custom of posing some introductory questions to get the game started:

1. What is your experience at Mafia
2. How do you play as town
3. How do you play as scum
4. What do you think gives away a player as scum or town

[teacher]

My own answers are below, with the caveat that my real life sucks right now so Im not going to be as effortful as I have been othertimes:

1. RL years ago; appr 14 forum games in the last year.
2. I effort obv!town (but have a lot less time during the school year)
3. I effort obv!town (see above).
4. Motivations, probabilities, and associations. For each post, I try to ascertain the motive behind it. Does it seem town-motivated or scum-motivated. To be sure, both town and scum have similar objectives, but they arent overlapping. Town is not as afraid of being lynched, because there will be a mislynch at some point; scum knows that their death is 50% of a loss. Town wants to out real analysis to advance the game; scum wants to repeat information that everybody knows so they can appear to be helping without actually doing it. Another key area of difference is in probabilities. Here, I cant say it much better than a strategy article from the Wiki (link). I'll speak more on associations tomorrow if Im still kicking.

[teacher]

So with two full bewbs, feel free to ask anything. It looks like you’ve already figured out how to snip quotes out of longer posts and how to vote. I will recommend you read the spoiled “advice” or “mod post” in post 1

This low amount of activity at the start is unusual, but weekends tend to be slower than in the week.

[teacher]

What happened to the IC thing?

Ours was actually the last game with it. I think some combination of low numbers desiring to serve as an IC and it being 78% of the time a town leader and lightening rod (newb!town would sheep, newb!docs would protect, and newb!scum would kill) led to the consensus being to ditch the formal IC and have three SEs. I still intend to the ICish asides, but feel less obligation to drive a game than I did before, which is good because Im doing two games and busy with work atm.

Teacher, you mentioned history with Skellen. Anything worth mentioning from past experience with them?

Oh, and hello to Zeito, who is following me from one of the chat rooms I mentioned earlier. Nice to see you here

1. Out of curiousity, what chatroom? I found my way here from a different site focused on a different game, so figured I should ask especially with two of you.

2. On Skellen, her self-meta is pretty accurate. She was the most WIM of her second newb-game, driving conversation and with good thoughts and pushes. I mindmelded on like 80%, and disagreed with 20 but could see where she was coming from. I will be impressed if she can scum like that, but would give her a day 1 pass pretty much no matter what.

[teacher]

Just noticed most of you have done an RVS vote and I feel like I probably should too.

VOTE: Sekaedy

this degree of lampshadeyness about an RVS, and then selecting a nonappearing player, seemed a bit forced. Why not make a joke? Why not pick a poster? How did you pick Sekaedy of the rest of the list?

[teacher]

ok guys
VOTE: TheASC

ez caught scum.

VOTE: Chennisden.

[teacher]

I also agree that commenting "Why not make a joke?" is a little strange.

agree with who? I dont see another comment on mine. Also, fwiw, it is considered courtesy here to either quote (as you acknowledged) or at least link a post you are discussing, so that others can decide if you are representing it fairly or shifting the focus.

You can partial quote with relative ease by highlighting only the part of the post you want to discuss, and clicking the quote button on the top right. To link a post, insert just the post number from the top left (e.g., 1 for the mod's rules and advice) into the following code--

Code: Select all

[post]##[/post]

[teacher]

It has no effect on the outcome

I strongly disagree.

[teacher]

the game started with seven confirmations (and seven people have posted so far

As the mod's prod + replace suggested, I actually didnt confirm but hopped right in, FWIW

[teacher]

Yeah I'm not seeing a scum agenda here from ASC other than lamist-y posting, not unusual from newbie. Better hope he's scum, or that the 2 awol players aren't.

first in-game town read awarded.

[teacher]

It has no effect on the outcome

I strongly disagree.

If there are games that have been decided in RVS I've never played in one.

Not decided. Since we are in the newb queue remind me either tomorrow (if Im kicking) or postgame (if Im not) and I will speak on how I at least find it useful.

[teacher]

It has no effect on the outcome

I strongly disagree.

If there are games that have been decided in RVS I've never played in one.

Not decided

That was the whole point of the basketball opening-tip analogy. Nobody remembers who won the opening tip by the 3d quarter, and nobody remembers RVS by D3.

thats when I find it useful. I think it has some of the best associative data after flips. Not as good as VCA, but better than later posts when scum strategies can be more developed.

[teacher]

Prodge til tonight. I’ll answer more in depth later Skellen but I thought ASC was pretty towny. The questions weren’t really for him but to see if anybody would jump in the shade without any real analysis and Chennis did. I agree with Wazoos read on ASC which is why Wazoo for my first out of null town.

[teacher]

I took sekaedys wording as a positive sign of paying attention to and mocking zeitos wording in their own vote, fwiw. (And yes I jumped in to answer but I wanted to redirect the attention.)

[teacher]

??since I’m still the most active poster despite being active lurkey from RL, and haven’t seen a case I don’t get this push at all.

[teacher]

I took sekaedys wording as a positive sign of paying attention to and mocking zeitos wording in their own vote, fwiw. (And yes I jumped in to answer but I wanted to redirect the attention.)

How’d you even reach this conclusion? There are 4 posts on sekadye and in neither of them is there an indication that points towards what you are saying. He legit answered your post and then voted Zeito, how does that result in paying attention to and mocking zeito’s wording in their own vote? ... snip...

Look at the timing and the wording:

sharing reads and

positioning myself as I feel necessary

And also I feel it is

necessary to position

my vote on VOTE: Zeito.

As I stated, I kinda liked Sekaedy's imitation of Zeito's wording, which did seem off to me as well. The fact that it mirrored it so soon after made me feel Sekaedy was reading and paying attention. Its not a full townread, but the motives for that wording are +town.

[teacher]

@teacher:
What makes chennis for you easy

caught scum

? The timing of his vote?

Also were you satisfied with ASC's answer to your #20? Just wondered that you didn't persuade him further as I thought he gave a pretty generic response, which seemed kind of unusual for you to let him off the hook that fast.

1. Yes, the timing of his vote put it over the edge for me. But more so that I see nothing town-advancing in his ISO. His answer to question 2 suggests an aggressiveness that is lacking. His answer to number 4 is one word and not that accurate or helpful. But more broadly, it is the lack of any questions or desire to solve -- he joined a momentum wagon without contributing.

2. TheASC was, at the the time of my return (39/page 2), looking decently towny. In contrast to Chennis, he gave fairly detailed and reflective answers to the questions, that are consistent with his play so far. While 18 may seem questionable, it came after a few more RVSes and my own advice to read the mod advice, which includes RVS. I think newb!scum would be afraid of being as lampshadey as to acknowledge that they were taking an action to fit in - the vote was strange, but not in a scum way to me. I also liked their response to my "make a joke" question, showing attention to how others had RVSed. Again, there is also a desire for understanding in 50 - seeing how the game is played here, and making sure he understands what a player means in order to be able to analyze it. Bottom line, he is not out of null yet but has got a town tinge.

[teacher]

Yeah I'm not seeing a scum agenda here from ASC other than lamist-y posting, not unusual from newbie. Better hope he's scum, or that the 2 awol players aren't.

first in-game town read awarded.

Why, for that NSS post?

Yes, for that one. He derailed a momentum wagon with accurate thoughts. True, the thoughts may have been NSS/simple, but what is the scum motivation for sharing it at that time? I cant really come up with one -- it does not feel like a whiteknight/pocket, because it is too soft for that. Why dont you think it was towny if you agree with it?

[teacher]

ASC, Persi, Zeito these are my town reads at the moment

Im with you on ASC. But what about Persi is town? His lurk/prod especially from an SE, plus 83 quoted above, are giving me a scum tingle. He seems to agree with the same Wazoo post I agreed with -- calling it NSS -- but then questions the town read based on it? Who wants to prevent town from recognizing town......

[teacher]

him saying” I am active, I don’t get the push on me” isn’t a solid defence. Just because you’re active, it doesn’t necessarily make you town. I said I’d be on Seka, but because teacher made that post it immediately raised my awareness and I saw how suspicious it was, so I went for a vote on him. A push on Seka wouldn’t give me information at the moment, but that read on teacher’s part is really suspicious, it seemed like he was trying to “buddy” someone, although the person he was defending clearly didn’t do any of the things teacher mentioned.

1. You are absolutely right that scum can be active, and that I try to play this same way as scum too (Normal 2016 is the prime example). But my point and concern was more tied to the general gamestate in this room rather than just my own activity levels. We are only on page 5 half-way through the day. With so many lurkers/non-players, targeting one of the few active participants makes it easier for scum to lurkcoast all the way through.

2. That said, I think you are town motivated. Both in the quote above and in 90, you disagreed with my take on Sekaedy, saying they "didn't do any of the things" I mentioned. I stand by my views, as explained in 112. I think this is a legit disconnect.

[teacher]

Finally, a general comment on the gamestate -- it is WAY too stagnant in here. Not only does it make it harder to find scum, it also makes the game less desireable even for those that want to play. All players should try to step up a little more, simply for the entertainment value.

Reads atm:
Teacher
Scum reading
Skellen
Grand Wazoo
_______________
Sekaedy
Zeito
The ASC
______________
Persivul
Chennis

[teacher]

^flip Zeito and ASC, but both still in the null/sort range.

[teacher]

ASC, Persi, Zeito these are my town reads at the moment

Im with you on ASC. But what about Persi is town? His lurk/prod especially from an SE, plus 83 quoted above, are giving me a scum tingle. He seems to agree with the same Wazoo post I agreed with -- calling it NSS -- but then questions the town read based on it? Who wants to prevent town from recognizing town......

Idk what NSS is, can you explain? I’ll explain why I think Persivul’s town afterwards

No

surprise

Sherlock, at least by my google of it.

[teacher]

@Skellen, @TheAsc, are you both comfortable with the players you're voting right now?

I can get the ASC question, but why ask Skellen? She was on a wagon, not by herself. Why not ask the other person on the wagon as well? or ask Sekaedy as the other person on a vanity?

[teacher]

In other words you’re just making it up. You made a case in 90. My 112 showed you were wrong - sekaedy did exactly what I described. You didn’t even have the courtesy to respond to that. So no, out the case now - I’m offline in 30 for a seven hour flight so want to be able to think about this “case”

[teacher]

I took sekaedys wording as a positive sign of paying attention to and mocking zeitos wording in their own vote, fwiw. (And yes I jumped in to answer but I wanted to redirect the attention.)

How’d you even reach this conclusion? There are 4 posts on sekadye and in neither of them is there an indication that points towards what you are saying. He legit answered your post and then voted Zeito, how does that result in paying attention to and mocking zeito’s wording in their own vote? ... snip...

Look at the timing and the wording:

sharing reads and

positioning myself as I feel necessary

And also I feel it is

necessary to position

my vote on VOTE: Zeito.

As I stated, I kinda liked Sekaedy's imitation of Zeito's wording, which did seem off to me as well. The fact that it mirrored it so soon after made me feel Sekaedy was reading and paying attention. Its not a full townread, but the motives for that wording are +town.

These aren’t numbered. You said sekaedy didn’t imitate Zeitos wording. What do you think now, with the language in front of you?

And what is your current case since this one was flat wrong.

[teacher]

Fair enough on defensive. It’s true, and it’s my style when I don’t get a case on me. I’ve never been mislynched outside of lylo and I don’t plan on starting now.

Ok, you don’t like reading on wording. Are you advocating a policy lynch of all approaches different from yours? I do read people based on wording - only way you can since it’s forum mafia, wording and intentions - and I have an over 70% victory rate. You do it a different way, fair enough, but why do you think mine doesn’t work?

Also, You say you didn’t give the post too much attention but then I called it out - both in the mobile post you didn’t like, and explicitly with a quote. You ignored it both times.

What about m reads “smells funny”? Right now you’re just trading in generalities. The one specific point you’ve made was shown to be wrong. I grant you the generality of defensiveness, but explain to me this “smells funny”.

I still think your town but you’re trying as hard as you can to make me question your abilities.

[teacher]

Scum, I have no interest in continuing this if you aren’t going to answer my questions:

What specifically about my readslist smells fishy?
Do you now agree that your statement in 90 was wrong, and that sekaedy’s 41 did in fact mirror zeitos wording in 38?

I have no problem with you suspecting me, nor with your having different reads. I do have a problem with you ignoring the questions.

[teacher]

Yeah I'm not seeing a scum agenda here from ASC other than lamist-y posting, not unusual from newbie. Better hope he's scum, or that the 2 awol players aren't.

first in-game town read awarded.

This looks like a town read based on a single post.

Where did you show this to be wrong?

i didn’t show it be wrong. I agree with that. I view 90% of posts in a game a NAI. Most of my reads come out of 1-4 posts in an ISO.

What you’re missing is the sequence. scum’s first case on me was in 90, such that he even linked back to it in 96. I showed that case was wrong in 112. My shown wrong comment was then in 129 and 131 “proved wrong” comment then came before scum reading changed his argument to “single post reading” in 132. That is something I readily admit to.

[teacher]

Scum, I have no interest in continuing this if you aren’t going to answer my questions:

What specifically about my readslist smells fishy?
Do you now agree that your statement in 90 was wrong, and that sekaedy’s 41 did in fact mirror zeitos wording in 38?

I have no problem with you suspecting me, nor with your having different reads. I do have a problem with you ignoring the questions.

I told you, you’re just giving town reads based on single posts, like wazoo’s post or sekaedy’s post. I’ve already addressed this though, my case revolved around your first question lol

Even if I’m wrong, that doesn’t still refute my case on you, which was “who gives town reads based on somebody’s choice of words in a rvs vote” , so you still have no defence in my eyes.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree. I read off of single posts. You don’t. Ok. But “fishy” suggests it’s manipulated for ulterior motives.

Different reads does not mean different alignments. We clearly have different reads, but I think we have the same alignment. The key is to try to understand the other persons head - why they think the way they do, and whether it shows a consistent thought process and approach to the game.

Knowing what you know about my process, do you think somebody applying it would have different reads than I posted?

[teacher]

Scum, I have no interest in continuing this if you aren’t going to answer my questions:

What specifically about my readslist smells fishy?
Do you now agree that your statement in 90 was wrong, and that sekaedy’s 41 did in fact mirror zeitos wording in 38?

I have no problem with you suspecting me, nor with your having different reads. I do have a problem with you ignoring the questions.

By the way, persi asked you a question that you haven’t answered either

i think I just did, before this? And it should have come up as a pedit so I’m not sure why you posted?

[teacher]

At this point, I believe the scum-team is formed of 1 inactive player (Seka is the most sus for this slot) and then the other would be a somewhat active player.

Why are you making this assumption btw?

[teacher]

Slightly suspicious of GrandWazoo also, but I don't think scum would have the audacity to pull this:

Yeah I'm not seeing a scum agenda here from ASC other than lamist-y posting, not unusual from newbie. Better hope he's scum, or that the 2 awol players aren't.

first in-game town read awarded.

and then both lynch the same player on day 1. (chennisden)

FTR my vote on chennisden was RVS. It remains because I don't care for his halfhearted push on ASC, or for that wagon in general.

@scum he is not, he said it was now an intentional vote. Why are you pushing off Chennis (me and Wazoo)?

[teacher]

So basically, the reason that I’m not advocating for a chennis lynch is because he plays scum EXACTLY as he plays town, he is extra suspicious, lurking (like he is right now) and so I’d rather have an investigative on them because there’s legit no way to read this dude

We might not have an investigative (jk/doc) and a person like that shouldn’t survive til lylo. Jus sayin.

[teacher]

^i thought activity wasn’t a defense?

[teacher]

^i thought activity wasn’t a defense?

Yeah, lynch me for it

I am not particularly interested in you so much as kicking the tires of sekaedys replacement.

given the number of replacements and that that was a full triple prodge replace, can we have 3 days with the full compliment of players before deadline?

[teacher]

I’m now town on Zeito too. Sell me on ASC, please? They’re still in my sort range.

[teacher]

put the vote somewhere else in about half an hour once I've had a good read through.

.....checks clock.....
What’s your reads?

[teacher]

Informal VC by Chennis’s request. Done by ISO and my notes, but please check me:
Scum Reading (2): Grand Wazoo (184); Persivul (189)
Zeito: Sekaedy (41)
Persivul: Scum reading (227)
Teacher: Zeito (36)
Chenis: Teacher (39)
Not Voting: Chennis (199); Skellen (175); TheASC (198)

[teacher]

OK, town is fairly divided. As a purely empirical matter, we want to rally around a lynch and get an intent in the next 24 hours so that there is time to react to any role claim and arrange an alternate wagon if necessary. My reads have been altered somewhat from a couple days ago, so I am going to re-iso and propose my lynch target with a case.

PEdit: Im way off scum Persivul, but the Sekaedy slot looks interesting to me today. So does either ASC or Chennis prior to my reread.

[teacher]

@ those scum reading scum reading (couldnt resist), I get why, but I also see alot of town motivation for his actions. Regardless, in my view it is better to leave him alive spewing across the thread during day 2, because if scum he provides more associatives. Even if you think he is scum, I might hunt for his partner on this low-information day.

[teacher]

I’m now town on Zeito too. Sell me on ASC, please? They’re still in my sort range.

I believe I already made a case on her. Her posts still look town, especially her newest ones. Nothing suggests scum and she was one of the leading wagons, that's a new one given that in the past few days nobody had more than 3 votes, that should be a good clue to her alignment. A wagon built on an rvs vote sure had scum on it as well. Like Persivul.

All I see in your ISO justifying this is 110, where it is gut. I really want you to talk about your read on this slot, especially vis-a-vis your quasi-case on Chennis in 187

[teacher]

Zeito's reads on teacher also feel organically towny - they followed the mindset of town (though they could be faking as scum, it seems pretty organic to me)

I agree with this.

[teacher]

I have no time to check other player's games.

Talk to me a little bit more about this. You are playing a similar meta, but less involved than our last game. I just havent felt your drive as much, even though your questions and comments still feel on point. Whats going on?

[teacher]

So it seems weak, and it is admittedly low-info, but my push is on ASC, with a backup on Sekaedy's replacement. I see nothing to advance town win-con in either ISO. No real reads, no questions, etc. No effort to solve. Id rather ASC because there is a chance the replacement can town-spew once they are in.

Let me acknowledge the counter-case. These are low-hanging fruit targets that scum can easily lynch without much blame. But we are close to deadline without a consensus building. Id rather lynch potential scum that are, at most, potential town liabilities than lynch active players that I think sort themselves more in future days. Neither slot I have suggested has been involved in the game, and so would be harmful to have involved at a lylo where they would would both (a) be easy to shade as coasting scum, and (b) cannot themselves have game-saving cases from lack of being involved.

VOTE: TheASC

[teacher]

Just pagetopping my informal VC by Chennis’s request in 204. Done by ISO and my notes, but please check me:
Scum Reading (2): Grand Wazoo (184); Persivul (189)
Zeito: Sekaedy (41)
Persivul: Scum reading (227)
Teacher: Zeito (36)
ASC: Teacher (249)
Not Voting: Chennis (199); Skellen (175); TheASC (198)

***As I mentioned before, we have approximately 3 days to deadline, and we dont want to come all the way down to deadline before intent is given in case of PR claims.

[teacher]

But we are close to deadline without a consensus building

I agree on the consensus part, however, there are still 3 days and 5 hours left. There's no need to rush, with 3 days, time shouldn't be pressuring us. I am interested to see who the non-voters will vote for.

Disagree - it’s the weekend which is low activity generally - making 2 of those days more like 1. This room is also inactive. We need a consensus target NOW to allow room for claims and response. (Though I’m still hoping for an extension when the mod response to my request).

[teacher]

@teacher
All the more reason to vote SR. Why aren't you voting SR?

Im willing to hammer him, but think his continued presence helps town regardless of his alignment. He is keeping the game active and forcing stances -- creating more alignment indicative information. There are other reasons as well, but I think he benefits town by being present in day 2.

[teacher]

@Persivul - nobody has ever called me cool

Like I said, Im willing to go there if thats the board consensus, but I do think he is a net positive to the room.

[teacher]

Im willing to hammer him, but think

his continued presence helps town regardless of his alignment.

He is keeping the game active and forcing stances -- creating more alignment indicative information. There are other reasons as well, but I think he benefits town by being present in day 2.

WTF dude this is a micro. Without a scum lynch D3 is LYLO.

Im well aware. I just dont think he is a town liability today. Our odds of hitting scum are 25% blindfolded. I feel pretty good that there are not 2 active scum. I feel good about Zeito. So Id rather hunt in the 3 inactive pool (ASC ... Sekaedy ... Chennis) for today, in that order. Thats just my preference, and Im not going to lie down in front of the train to stop his lynch, just think that the others are better.

[teacher]

No worries mate. Im not going to vote you. But if thats what the board wants, I will provide intent and a hammer because thats where I think we need to be.

[teacher]

I’m more open to sr than I was. The flip on ASC is grody.

[teacher]

ASC is absolutely scum. I forgot about the hey everyone. Not moving ever again. Nice to see you urap.

[teacher]

(And I hadnt even seen p 14)

[teacher]

If I were a JK, I'd pretend I was a doctor and use my powers to save, not cop check

This is sound advice - with multiple scum jk is a healer. With one scum they are an investigative.

I’m fine with wazoo or Chennis. We need a consensus lynch pronto.

VOTE: wazoo

[teacher]

I'm claiming doctor.

This is a safe day 1 claim for scum, since it exists for all other PRs and can’t be blamed for kills since they will choose an alternate protect. I personally don’t buy it here because I think we would have seen more defensiveness (a trait newbpr shares with scum). Plus I still don’t see questions or legit advancing content. That’s why I’m onto wazoo.

I would update URaPs advice to PRs, since I know for a fact he can powerscum on replace. Investigative should do whatever they want other than Zeito. I add URaP for the reason above and Skellen because I feel she has lacked the WIM she had last game. Any check, combined with the two upcoming flips, moves this game far along.

Zeito is my only lock town, with Persi not far behind. Funny how much things have changed since the game got active:
Teacher
Zeito
Persivul
URAP
Skellen
Scumreading
Chennis
Wazoo
ASC*daypass

[teacher]

Stated unhappiness about “the amount of people on TheASC’s wagon”, although this can be taken many ways. Was the wagon too big or too small?

It really can only be taken one way when it’s a wagon the slot is on but is failing to gain steam.

[teacher]

holy crap did we just lynch you?

crap

Putting this into my own ISO. This post felt really really off.

[teacher]

Zeito's reads on teacher also feel organically towny - they followed the mindset of town (though they could be faking as scum, it seems pretty organic to me)

I agree with this.

I did.

[teacher]

I just got unspeakably lucky - I had my departure time in the wrong timezone, but thankfully checked it and will have time to spare.

[teacher]

I just landed. I’m not positive that was the hammer, can someone confirm?

Also given claim state and possible Night death I do want people to look at acumreadings iso because I thought I saw crumbs which would now be questionable. Yes I recognize that outing that may not be for the best, but I think it it is better said at this point.

[teacher]

also I think your hammer actually comes from scum a lot more often than you're presenting. It might come from town more often than not, but i think it comes from scum a lot more than 5%

Are you an alt? If not...talk when you have more experience.

What's the scum!pers motivation for the hammer? I hadn't been under pressure the entire phase. There was no competing wagon, so I wasn't trying to save a buddy.

yea and that’s an easy defense too. At this point you have to recognize the candid I act and that you are a lylo liability if town. So best solve tomorrow.

[teacher]

Hey all -- Im swamped and have to admit I didnt stay on top of the game. This was well-played by Skellen and ASC. The true surprise of the game to me was the zeito lynch.

[teacher]

A. ScumR - aiming for some consistency is nice. I dont blame URAP at all for reading you.

B. Skellen -- good choice on killing me. I was getting lurky tendencies from you and would indeed have pushed you D2.

C. Zeito I dont really have suggestions for you. I thought you played a really strong game.

D. Chennis, I think you could have been move involved generally.

E. Anyone have any particular questions?