Newbie 1920: North America [Endgame]

[scum reading]

u r a person 2 was killed. He was a

Vanilla Townie

.

This is the obvious kill.

Interested to hear your thoughts on why this was an obvious kill. If it's so obvious, what does the nk point to for you?

[Zeito]

It sounds more like you knew you’d get pushed so you killed him and have started the day already defending yourself. The urap nk is the only thing you’ve got for a defence.

vote : zeito

“URAP got nk’d” is probably a much shittier defence than whatever URAP had in mind for the proxy 1v1 he was talking about before. You believe it’s likely that I thought the URAP nightkill would be a stronger defence for me than URAP himself? Obviously, it isn’t.

[scum reading]

You don't have to argue with the man willing to listen to a scum case coming from you. Big mistake.

[scum reading]

Push.A.Scum.Case

[Zeito]

You don't have to argue with the man willing to listen to a scum case coming from you. Big mistake.

First of all, you just managed to completely ignore my point whilst still responding to it. Was I wrong? How do you respond to this?

Second of all, you don’t seem to distinguish between scummy plays, and plays you don’t understand. You see a player not doing what you’re asking, not pushing another player, and your first assumption is ‘scum!’? A scum player should absolutely be pushing players throughout the course of the game, especially when they themself are under heat. Me not doing this is not townie, but I don’t understand why you believe it’s scummy.

Now maybe your response (assuming you will actually give one, which is unlikely) will be that I’m a noob player who doesn’t understand how to push players properly and thus is spending their time only defending themself. You would actually be pretty close to the truth here, this is ofc my first forums game and thus I’m not very good at ‘making a case’ on players with so much shit to go through, but I did bring up ASC himself when you were pretty reading to get chennis lynched. In fact, you were ready to get yourself lynched in order to do so. Has this changed? I’m not asking because I suddenly want chennis lynched instead of myself, but it seems like your reads have changed pretty drastically since the ASC flip. Did you not think he would be scum?

I’m not pushing someone because I don’t have a strong enough case on either Pers/chennis (my current scumpool) to push either of them right now, but I’ll look over them when I get home. Interactions with TheASC will be the first place I look. In the meantime, consider looking into the motivations behind a post rather than scumreading it if the motivations don’t instantly come from your viewpoint. We have played very differently this game, albeit I would say you’ve played with a lot more confidence than I have.

[Zeito]

inb4 he responds with flat out refusal to listen until I start pushing somebody, and then calls me scum for pushing a case half heartedly in order to save my own ass. Right now it looks like you want to push me over chennis so that you can get chennis lynched in the next lylo phase and win, but your suicideplay earlier still just doesn’t come off as scum to me still.

@Skellen, @chennis, excuse me if you’ve already posted about this, but if you haven’t, what are your thoughts on Persovul right now?

[scum reading]

Me not doing this is not townie, but I don’t understand why you believe it’s scummy

?????????

but I did bring up ASC himself when you were pretty reading to get chennis lynched. In fact, you were ready to get yourself lynched in order to do so. Has this changed? I’m not asking because I suddenly want chennis lynched instead of myself, but it seems like your reads have changed pretty drastically since the ASC flip. Did you not think he would be scum?

Um, yeah, when you and ASC started a vanity wagon on chennisden on day one just before wazoo was going to get lynched. After ASC flipping red and me pressuring him to vote chennisden was actually a get out of jail free card, he had a reason to hop on a wagon. I don't believe it was a bus. Plus, chennis is also new to the forum stuff and I don't see a new scum pushing a new scum like they both have on day one. Hell, even experienced scum don't do that shit. So chennisden isn't a lynch option for me anymore.

Skellen is a town read for a lot of people, me, chennis, urap included. I think for persivul as well. She was the one to build up the ASC case. Even though she was the latest vote, I don't take that as a scum tell, since she focused on getting scum lynched when my push was on chennisden and he could've been an easy mislynch bait.

Soooo, it's you or persivul. I did give persivul the benefit of the doubt with that lolhammer and him saying he's willing to get lynched and claiming his reads were bad this game, so what I do find interesting is that he's saying with conviction you're scum and he doesn't doubt his reads now. Which is self-contradiction. But I'm willing to trust him for at least hopping on the wagon when it had only one vote.

[Zeito]

Please can you respond to the first point I actually made as well. See “first of all” in my post. This was what I wanted you to address initially, which you ignored.

[scum reading]

This:

Spoiler:

Right now it looks like you want to push me over chennis so that you can get chennis lynched in the next lylo phase and win

Followed by this:

Spoiler:

but your suicideplay earlier still just doesn’t come off as scum to me still

Is a questionable attempt to manipulate me. You are omgusing me without placing an actual vote and then you say "but I still think you're town". This shit doesn't add up. If you believe I'm town, why are you having this conversation with me in the first place? You're trying to get me on the same page with you by tring me, but you are accusing me of being scum and then say I'm still a tr, it makes no sense.

This is why I'm lynching you over Persivul.

[scum reading]

What point? I think I've clearly stated the NK is your only defence. Do I agree with it being a bad defence, yeah sure, you panicked. Here, addressed, what other concerns do you have?

Scum can get undetected with stuff like :

You believe it’s likely that I thought the URAP nightkill would be a stronger defence for me than URAP himself?

This is pure WIFOM, I don't know you.

[scum reading]

What I do know is that you're way scummier than Persivul, that's for sure. So go ahead and get into a 1v1 with him.

@Persivul yo, game's starting, you have to be here

[Zeito]

This:

Spoiler:

Right now it looks like you want to push me over chennis so that you can get chennis lynched in the next lylo phase and win

Followed by this:

Spoiler:

but your suicideplay earlier still just doesn’t come off as scum to me still

Is a questionable attempt to manipulate me. You are omgusing me without placing an actual vote and then you say "but I still think you're town". This shit doesn't add up. If you believe I'm town, why are you having this conversation with me in the first place?

Hi, this is called making reads. I looked at the things you were saying and decided whether it was scummy or not. Did you actually think I was trying to manipulate you here? There’s no point trying to do that.

I will respond to the rest when I get home.

[scum reading]

Reads? The first spoiler is from the PoV of me being scum.

The second spoiler you admit I'm a townread despite what you have said earlier.

So it was an attempt to throw shade which you have completely refuted yourself. What was the read after all because that post didn't make any sense. You pointed out something that makes no sense and has no ties with the conclusion of your post.You won't win a fight against me Zeito, I'll act like the day has just started and nobody has posted anything.

Have your 1v1 with Persivul now.

[Persivul]

What I do know is that you're way scummier than Persivul, that's for sure. So go ahead and get into a 1v1 with him.

@Persivul yo, game's starting, you have to be here

I'm here and watching. Nothing's been said to change my mind so far. I think zeito's scum who's in a really bad position and doing what he can.

[scum reading]

What I do know is that you're way scummier than Persivul, that's for sure. So go ahead and get into a 1v1 with him.

@Persivul yo, game's starting, you have to be here

I'm here and watching. Nothing's been said to change my mind so far. I think zeito's scum who's in a really bad position and doing what he can.

Why aren't you voting then?

[Zeito]

What I do know is that you're way scummier than Persivul, that's for sure. So go ahead and get into a 1v1 with him.

@Persivul yo, game's starting, you have to be here

I'm here and watching. Nothing's been said to change my mind so far. I think zeito's scum who's in a really bad position and doing what he can.

Reads? The first spoiler is from the PoV of me being scum.

The second spoiler you admit I'm a townread despite what you have said earlier.

So it was an attempt to throw shade which you have completely refuted yourself. What was the read after all because that post didn't make any sense. You pointed out something that makes no sense and has no ties with the conclusion of your post.You won't win a fight against me Zeito, I'll act like the day has just started and nobody has posted anything.

Have your 1v1 with Persivul now.

Often a good way of making reads is to assume the scum mindset and find motivations from there. Pushing me has scum motivations, so I got a scumread by doing so. I wanted to express that evaluation, but since I still held a townread on you I wanted to mention that too. Is it maybe redundant to mention that you said something scummy even when I townread you? Sure. But I tend to throw out my thought process no matter how you want to read me for doing so.

You’ve assumed I’m scum, and are now making up scumtells in everything I say.
I’m not even arguing with you to make you townread me at this point though, there’s no chance of that happening, I’m just trying to correct what I believe to be a flawed scum read from scum reading (look, I made one too!).

I’m not quite home yet, I just had a few minutes to spare.

Since half of the other players now scumread me (possibly including one scum), I’ll hopefully make something decent that town can have a look at to get a second opinion of who scum probably was from my perspective (if either of Skellen or chennis decide to vote me) in an hour or so, for after my death.

[Persivul]

Why aren't you voting then?

There's a couple ISOs I want to read.

[Zeito]

Spoiler:

Regarding scum reading (the player):
First off I think there's a line between wagon hopping and changing your reads, one is scummy and one is towny, but I'm leaning the latter on SR because it feels like they did it knowing they could be sr'd for it #165 (and then later shifts onto Persivul).

It’s not shady, I’m just a really indecisive person and I like to be as transparent as possible. I advocated for you not getting lynched in my first posts as well, I still stand by it, but regardless of the flip, I think this is the most beneficial lynch at the moment. Sorry, chennis

I think being indecisive is fair. I think we disagree on how far chennis would be helpful as an info-lynch if they flip town, though.

Also, I saw they asked to be hammered at some point. I do not know how to read defeatism.

However, scum reading has been putting townreads on players fairly unnecessarily, #182 highlights my thoughts on this, I would like you to provide some reasoning with these if possible, even just 'gutread'.

Regarding chennis:

It’s not shady, I’m just a really indecisive person and I like to be as transparent as possible. I advocated for you not getting lynched in my first posts as well, I still stand by it, but regardless of the flip, I think this is the most beneficial lynch at the moment. Sorry, chennis

VOTE: scum reading

Advocating policy is something scum does.

Finding and lynching scum is something town does.

Like I said before, I had originally voted teacher after they voted chennis because it felt like chennis was an easy push. However, I'm starting to scumread chennis more and more.
#165
"Scumreading seems like he wants to prevent my mislynch, but then he switches to voting me very fast. / Shady shady" You do this immediately after, townreading scum reading in #163 without much reasoning to do so, and then voting him after one post. Was your original townread just that frail?
You did give reasoning, however - "Advocating policy is something scum does." But I do feel he has a point, chennis would be an easy lynch in the later stages of the game. It comes off more to me as if he was just thinking it through more.
I'm inclined to vote chennisden, I think. I'll review at the bottom of my post.

Regarding GW:

@GW:
To begin with I usually have troubles with reading erratic players like SR. What indicates town in his case is his effort as he is aggressively lashing out in any directions to get a grip on other players. Although it bothers me that he tried twice to after the guy who hasn't even been in the thread for 2-3 days and is now finally getting replaced. In case of his interaction with teacher for me the most important post #152 is where he explains his motivation. I can sympathize with that attitude, because in my first game with teacher I had the very same mindset with instantly jumping at teacher at the first opening to get a better impression of his personality, even although definitely not that aggressive as SR does. Also I am doubting if scum!SR would have been that bold to provoke such a 1v1 with a player like teacher on Day 1 considering the attention it caused.

It's that very erratic style of play that's striking me as anti-town. Wagon-hopping betrays a lack of conviction, at best. Directing investigative roles 77 out of the gate. "Pushing" a player that isn't here, as you said. Saying the chennisden wagon is would be a waste of time 158 then doing an instant 180 and voting them 162. Declaring "pressure vote" on Persival without actually voting. Voting me 149 for still being in RVS after I'd explicitly stated it was now a real vote 108. As for the 1v1 with teacher, I see both sides making a big deal over trivial matters. No problem with this in principle, since it often gives the other players insights into the two players' alignments. But in this case I didn't come away with any better idea on how to sort them. I don't know if his push on teacher was "bold" or just distracting.

Chennisden has redeemed himself somewhat so

VOTE: SR

Sorry if you've already responded to this, I'm reading through and typing these out as I go. How has chennisden redeemed themself?

My problem isn't with your activity, SR, but in the nature thereof. Bandwagon-hopping and "swinging at random" IS distracting, hence anti-town. As is your push on teacher, based on a single post (which was itself about the ASCwagon over a single post) It would be like me jumping on teacher over the RVS opening-tip analogy. Trivial points like this don't merit pushes unless you show they're part of a larger scum agenda.

As Persivul says, orchestrating wagons for "pressure" is futile. If you think someone's scum, just vote them and say why. Now nobody will feel pressured by your vote because the target knows it's not a serious wagon and you'll be voting someone else in a page or two.

GW has continually cited SRs posts as distracting, but it seems they weren't that distracting (since you obtained a scumread off of them). I'm assuming I'm being pedantic and you meant more like "they meant to be distracting" but I have to agree that there wasn't much to distract from - scum doesn't tend to distract town with themself, at least not from the games I've played.
I do feel GW is justified in reading SRs votes as wagon hopping, he does change his reads a little quickly, and they seem a little unstable. He has mentioned his votes are like this however (whether you trust self pmeta like that or not) and like I said before, he has recognised that wagon-hopping is scummy yet seems to continue to do so to push for reads.

Regarding Persivul

I think he's made some strong points and shows effort to scumhunt, although many of them do seem to be metas. I'm fairly unsure of this slot, but I don't think it's the lynch for today.

A lynch on me would actually give zero information.

Why is that?

Last time I heard that argument, it was from scum. Just sayin'...

Meta reads like this make it seem like you have reasoning to be scumreading something but without making you show us that reasoning. In this particular case, I do agree it feels a little scummy to argue that, but I would like you to show us more of what you're thinking, basically.


I'm sure there's a limit to the length of a post that y'all can take and it's 4am so I'm going to continue looking at this tomorrow. I will quickly summarise where I'll put my vote for now though, and where I would be willing to shift it to.

VOTE: chennisden

See "regarding chennisden" above. A lynch on TheASC would be fine too, but I have a stronger scumread on chennis right now, as well as the belief that if he were to flip town he would give more info than town!asc lynch.
I would also be happy with a lynch on GrandWazoo (see above).

I would prefer not to lynch Sekaedy, Skellen, teacher, or Persivul today. To me Skellen is bleeding town right now, I've commented on Persivul above, Sekaedy is inactive, and I no longer have a strong scumread on teacher.

As for a lynch on SR... possibly. I also wrote some thoughts about him above, and although it may look like I'm defending them, I mostly just want to distinguish between being indecisive and wagon-hopping. Whether or not I would feel comfortable voting SR I'm not completely sure about, so maybe they would be my fourth option to lynch today. Like I said, I'll post more tomorrow and hopefully we can reach a decent lynch.

Assuming ASC flips red, you

MUST

lynch Zeito tomorrow for this vote and post. No ifs, ands or buts.[/quote]

Woah... what happened? What changed? You even bolded it!
Don’t worry, if you’re scum I’m sure you can pocket SR tomorrow and get chennis lynched.

[Zeito]

I have literally no idea why it got formmtted like that. It loses some of its snark power

[scum reading]

Spoiler:

Regarding scum reading (the player):
First off I think there's a line between wagon hopping and changing your reads, one is scummy and one is towny, but I'm leaning the latter on SR because it feels like they did it knowing they could be sr'd for it #165 (and then later shifts onto Persivul).

It’s not shady, I’m just a really indecisive person and I like to be as transparent as possible. I advocated for you not getting lynched in my first posts as well, I still stand by it, but regardless of the flip, I think this is the most beneficial lynch at the moment. Sorry, chennis

I think being indecisive is fair. I think we disagree on how far chennis would be helpful as an info-lynch if they flip town, though.

Also, I saw they asked to be hammered at some point. I do not know how to read defeatism.

However, scum reading has been putting townreads on players fairly unnecessarily, #182 highlights my thoughts on this, I would like you to provide some reasoning with these if possible, even just 'gutread'.

Regarding chennis:

It’s not shady, I’m just a really indecisive person and I like to be as transparent as possible. I advocated for you not getting lynched in my first posts as well, I still stand by it, but regardless of the flip, I think this is the most beneficial lynch at the moment. Sorry, chennis

VOTE: scum reading

Advocating policy is something scum does.

Finding and lynching scum is something town does.

Like I said before, I had originally voted teacher after they voted chennis because it felt like chennis was an easy push. However, I'm starting to scumread chennis more and more.
#165
"Scumreading seems like he wants to prevent my mislynch, but then he switches to voting me very fast. / Shady shady" You do this immediately after, townreading scum reading in #163 without much reasoning to do so, and then voting him after one post. Was your original townread just that frail?
You did give reasoning, however - "Advocating policy is something scum does." But I do feel he has a point, chennis would be an easy lynch in the later stages of the game. It comes off more to me as if he was just thinking it through more.
I'm inclined to vote chennisden, I think. I'll review at the bottom of my post.

Regarding GW:

@GW:
To begin with I usually have troubles with reading erratic players like SR. What indicates town in his case is his effort as he is aggressively lashing out in any directions to get a grip on other players. Although it bothers me that he tried twice to after the guy who hasn't even been in the thread for 2-3 days and is now finally getting replaced. In case of his interaction with teacher for me the most important post #152 is where he explains his motivation. I can sympathize with that attitude, because in my first game with teacher I had the very same mindset with instantly jumping at teacher at the first opening to get a better impression of his personality, even although definitely not that aggressive as SR does. Also I am doubting if scum!SR would have been that bold to provoke such a 1v1 with a player like teacher on Day 1 considering the attention it caused.

It's that very erratic style of play that's striking me as anti-town. Wagon-hopping betrays a lack of conviction, at best. Directing investigative roles 77 out of the gate. "Pushing" a player that isn't here, as you said. Saying the chennisden wagon is would be a waste of time 158 then doing an instant 180 and voting them 162. Declaring "pressure vote" on Persival without actually voting. Voting me 149 for still being in RVS after I'd explicitly stated it was now a real vote 108. As for the 1v1 with teacher, I see both sides making a big deal over trivial matters. No problem with this in principle, since it often gives the other players insights into the two players' alignments. But in this case I didn't come away with any better idea on how to sort them. I don't know if his push on teacher was "bold" or just distracting.

Chennisden has redeemed himself somewhat so

VOTE: SR

Sorry if you've already responded to this, I'm reading through and typing these out as I go. How has chennisden redeemed themself?

My problem isn't with your activity, SR, but in the nature thereof. Bandwagon-hopping and "swinging at random" IS distracting, hence anti-town. As is your push on teacher, based on a single post (which was itself about the ASCwagon over a single post) It would be like me jumping on teacher over the RVS opening-tip analogy. Trivial points like this don't merit pushes unless you show they're part of a larger scum agenda.

As Persivul says, orchestrating wagons for "pressure" is futile. If you think someone's scum, just vote them and say why. Now nobody will feel pressured by your vote because the target knows it's not a serious wagon and you'll be voting someone else in a page or two.

GW has continually cited SRs posts as distracting, but it seems they weren't that distracting (since you obtained a scumread off of them). I'm assuming I'm being pedantic and you meant more like "they meant to be distracting" but I have to agree that there wasn't much to distract from - scum doesn't tend to distract town with themself, at least not from the games I've played.
I do feel GW is justified in reading SRs votes as wagon hopping, he does change his reads a little quickly, and they seem a little unstable. He has mentioned his votes are like this however (whether you trust self pmeta like that or not) and like I said before, he has recognised that wagon-hopping is scummy yet seems to continue to do so to push for reads.

Regarding Persivul

I think he's made some strong points and shows effort to scumhunt, although many of them do seem to be metas. I'm fairly unsure of this slot, but I don't think it's the lynch for today.

A lynch on me would actually give zero information.

Why is that?

Last time I heard that argument, it was from scum. Just sayin'...

Meta reads like this make it seem like you have reasoning to be scumreading something but without making you show us that reasoning. In this particular case, I do agree it feels a little scummy to argue that, but I would like you to show us more of what you're thinking, basically.


I'm sure there's a limit to the length of a post that y'all can take and it's 4am so I'm going to continue looking at this tomorrow. I will quickly summarise where I'll put my vote for now though, and where I would be willing to shift it to.

VOTE: chennisden

See "regarding chennisden" above. A lynch on TheASC would be fine too, but I have a stronger scumread on chennis right now, as well as the belief that if he were to flip town he would give more info than town!asc lynch.
I would also be happy with a lynch on GrandWazoo (see above).

I would prefer not to lynch Sekaedy, Skellen, teacher, or Persivul today. To me Skellen is bleeding town right now, I've commented on Persivul above, Sekaedy is inactive, and I no longer have a strong scumread on teacher.

As for a lynch on SR... possibly. I also wrote some thoughts about him above, and although it may look like I'm defending them, I mostly just want to distinguish between being indecisive and wagon-hopping. Whether or not I would feel comfortable voting SR I'm not completely sure about, so maybe they would be my fourth option to lynch today. Like I said, I'll post more tomorrow and hopefully we can reach a decent lynch.

Assuming ASC flips red, you

MUST

lynch Zeito tomorrow for this vote and post. No ifs, ands or buts.

Woah... what happened? What changed? You even bolded it!
Don’t worry, if you’re scum I’m sure you can pocket SR tomorrow and get chennis lynched.[/quote]

Persivul's best shot if you are a mislynch is to kill either me or skellen and go for a chennis lynch. I'm sure the both of me and skellen will vote for Persivul, depending which one stays alive.

Given that I said that, I'm probably getting nked if you turn out to be town.

[scum reading]

tf is this post

[scum reading]

The grand Persivul who lolhammers day one is reluctant to vote. Interesting.

[scum reading]

I have literally no idea why it got formmtted like that. It loses some of its snark power

Definitely does, I'm giving Persivul a score of 1-0 for now because of that post

[Persivul]

VOTE: scum reading

Happy now?

[scum reading]

VOTE: scum reading

Happy now?

You realised that if Zeito flips you'll become the immediate lynch? A bit too late.