Mini 2136 | City That Never Sleeps [Game over!]

[Auro]

Controversial opinion, I actually think skitter looks way worse on a Titus townflip than on a Titus scumflip. If she's scum with Titus she's basically betting the game on being able to deflect the vote away from Titus, but her reasoning is vague and she isn't pushing a counterwagon. That is much more of a whiteknighting archetype than a partner defending one.

Actually the more I think about the more I feel like skitter/Titus isn't a viable team. I'll have to talk to lilith about this because I think that's her solve atm.

Smart, please evaluate the rest of Skitter's play (and from late D1) as well, if you can.
And especially Acryon's play so far, as well.

If Titus is scum, yes, Skitter isn't pushing a strong counterwagon... but who is? This leaves Titus with no partner equity at all if you go down that line: so if she's scum her buddy is doing exactly what Skitter would be doing as a buddy, no? Of course, you could say that

Skitter

would push a strong counterwagon but other partners would just leave it be, but I doubt that is the case.

Also note how, when I made a u-turn on Titus, suddenly Eve was being propped up as a lynch. Thoughts on that?

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I think 273 is a really good town-thought. Attempting to see if people are just letting scum!you sneak by because of effort.

That's interesting. That's the kind of post that I think most people would call out as scummy because it's trying to break down a universal townread and keep us in the lynchpool.

I would disagree with that hypothetical argument, but I also disagree with the claim that it's a town-thought, because it very well could be that he is scum who thought the townreads on us weren't justified and wanted to try to attack them. Being scum and seeing people be right for the wrong reasons can be very annoying.

520 similarly is asking people to re-evaluate their reads. These kinds of things feel very town to me, because they're not driving an agenda as much as they are making each person do something on their own and also challenging popular reads.

This one is more reasonable, since we know that the read he was challenging was wrong and this was before Allo softed.

But I wouldn't really call these posts as having a genuine thought process that is solving-motivated and hard to fake, like you seemed to be implying. I think it's more that you think that's the type of post that scum probably wouldn't want to make, in the second case because they would want the Allo mislynch to go through. That does make sense, but it's also WIFOM since of course scum want to do things that it doesn't look like scum would do. But I do agree that 520 is > rand town.

-Smart

[acryon]

I think 273 is a really good town-thought. Attempting to see if people are just letting scum!you sneak by because of effort.

That's interesting. That's the kind of post that I think most people would call out as scummy because it's trying to break down a universal townread and keep us in the lynchpool.

I would disagree with that hypothetical argument, but I also disagree with the claim that it's a town-thought, because it very well could be that he is scum who thought the townreads on us weren't justified and wanted to try to attack them. Being scum and seeing people be right for the wrong reasons can be very annoying.

That's possible, but that line of thought (especially the last part) as scum doesn't strike me as coming from BB's slot this game. Just doesn't fit at all with the rest of his game.

520 similarly is asking people to re-evaluate their reads. These kinds of things feel very town to me, because they're not driving an agenda as much as they are making each person do something on their own and also challenging popular reads.

This one is more reasonable, since we know that the read he was challenging was wrong and this was before Allo softed.

But I wouldn't really call these posts as having a genuine thought process that is solving-motivated and hard to fake, like you seemed to be implying. I think it's more that you think that's the type of post that scum probably wouldn't want to make, in the second case because they would want the Allo mislynch to go through. That does make sense, but it's also WIFOM since of course scum want to do things that it doesn't look like scum would do. But I do agree that 520 is > rand town.

-Smart

Yeah admittedly a lot of this for me is gut. Some of those posts I just strongly feel from my experience are indicative of town, and I just frankly don't feel the same way reading Eve's posts. I specifically recall feeling multiple times after reading BB's posts: "that's town".

[northsidegal]

Votecount 2.8

Target	Wagon
acryon (3)	Atarashi Hajimari (1660), Auro (1929), Eve (1956)
Titus (2)	The Limit Does Not Exist (1635), BBmolla (1903)
Eve (2)	acryon (1978), Titus (1979)
Not Voting (2)	GuiltyLion (1780), skitter30 (1877)

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. The Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2020-05-14 17:47:59).

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

AH, where is the acroyn case?

VOTE: Eve

why are you voting Eve?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

titus, are you townreading auro or GL now?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

If acryon is telling the truth about not seeing the soft then my point is moot. He was talking about getting back to an Allo wagon before the nom deadline wagon happened though, like it wasn’t just the one vote I’m talking about.

sorry i'm still not following
allo wasn't really viable at that point, i don't think that scum thinks that they were going to get that deadline lynch there really

especially since acryon knows he's vla over the weekend and wouldn't be able to nudge people in that direction

GuiltyLion's vote park looks like scum to me regardless of your alignment, so I want to start there too.

interesting.
which votepark, the current one on karnage?
because the obvious followup is why is my votepark not scum indicative too?

Now I'm going to run the numbers if GL is town.

Very little wagon participation suggests Karnage is town.

why tho?
why aren't scum piling on in this case?

We look at how Skitter treats the thread. First she tries to explain to TLDNE that a mislynch on Allo was impossible. Look at the tone she takes. It's not hostile but is matter of fact. It's not pockets. It's just stating an inconvenient truth.

Second, look how Skitter treats me. I am practically the only slot TRing him and she doesn't try and build me or my logic up. Instead, she tries to analyze my posts.

I don't think any of this is obvtown...

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

You recognize that one inconsistency doesn't mean they're auto scum, yes? It's possible to find a top townread of yours say something that felt off, and ask them to make sure?

@Smart: While such reads are definitely a thing, I feel like the conclusions of these reads with their confidences feels pretty off from Crayon. He's pushing people for things like "they questioned X slot but also said X is town", or "they pushed Y slot, but didn't have a vote on them", this is ick.

I think this is actually a pretty big misrep from you.

Can you clarify what you're saying that auro is misrepping?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Acryon what happened to your Eve scumread? You spent most of D1 voting Eve and still seemed suspicious of her D2, but have barely interacted with her or pushed her today

My big problem with Eve is I just can't make a case based on her play. D1 and today as well has been uninspiring from her, but it's just a lot harder to move on because there's so little there. I frankly have very little reason to believe Eve is town based on her posts, but I just don't know where to start on a case against her.

I just don't think I can get behind a Titus lynch today.

VOTE: Eve

How about we try this. Someone tell me why Eve is town.

Lol what..

Previously you said you thought Skitter/Rex was the scumteam, what changed?

- Smarter

[skitter30]

This is a surprisingly bad case.
1. Reducing my D1 play to a "hook" while ignoring the pushes and reads I made
2. Ignoring that I'm not the only person who thinks you have partner equity with Titus, which should obviously stem from hard defense of each other - this is basic theory
3. Ignoring my post where I outlined my approach towards you, and another about
4. Ignoring that I said I'm ambivalent to who got lynched between the two of you,
5. Ignoring that I said I needed to re-evaluate, and failing to see the value in the timing of my Crayon vote: you think one should only be voting their top scumread all the time?

1 that is indeed how you approached day1 and what you used to interact with the thread, most of your posts stemmed from pov; i don't think it's inaccurate to call that a hook. you were rather ambivalent day1 in deciding who ought to get lynched, and were much more concerned about the positioning of the votes, and i don't really like how you're pushing the me/titus thing today
2. i mean, i'm going to defend the people that i think are being pushed wrongly; that doesn't inherently make it an svs interaction. in fact, i even pointed out twice now how ridiculous it would have been for me to interact with rex this way as scum, which you have ignored
3. i don't think i ignored this? i'm pretty sure that i've addressed that post
4. this was a relatively new development, you've been pushing titus over me for most of the day from my pov
5. acryon's posting was fine. i dont' think you need to have your vote on your top scumread at all times but it's getting towards end of day, acryon is not going to get the required amount of traction in that time, he's town, and i think it's a strange place to vote if you were no longer pushing Titus

I love how I was advocating and committing to a strategy that gave me high chances of being copped from the start - so you're saying, Skitter, that I'm scum who was cleverly trying a risky WIFOM stunt and just got massively lucky that Allo softed?

yeah, that's like the one thing that's holding me back

I'm curious to see what you come up for this read. Scumcase pl0x

i primarily dislike her recent push on me and her sheeping of you/atarashi

Oh, also do explain what in Rex's was AI and towny, not null at best.

i'm pretty sure i did already?

[skitter30]

I don't think it's beyond Skittitus to play opposite to the classical association meta especially if Titus is a "sure lynch".

I'm not talking about capabilities, but tone and attitude when I mention Doubles.

again did you address this:

also can we assume i'm better with associatives as scum than like badly chain-sawing my partner via starting a 1v1 with one of the more townread players of the game,

auro what exactly was i doing when i defended rex the first time?

[skitter30]

acryon's is still town

imma check where the votes are at but i'm probably voting eve

[Titus]

AH, where is the acroyn case?

VOTE: Eve

why are you voting Eve?

- Smarter

titus, are you townreading auro or GL now?

- Smarter

I am not getting Auro or GL lynches, so I am voting any slot that isn't in my obvtown slots that gets votes. I'd rather GL or Auro but I'll settle for BBMolla or Eve.

[skitter30]

Votecount 2.7

Target	Wagon
Titus (3)	The Limit Does Not Exist (1635), Eve (1847), BBmolla (1903)
acryon (2)	Atarashi Hajimari (1660), Auro (1929)
GuiltyLion (1)	Titus (1514)
Not Voting (3)	GuiltyLion (1780), acryon (1820), skitter30 (1877)

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. The Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2020-05-14 17:47:59).

eve is also voting acryon. i'm rather suspicious of this wagon ngl

[skitter30]

VOTE: eve

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Votecount 2.7

Target	Wagon
Titus (3)	The Limit Does Not Exist (1635), Eve (1847), BBmolla (1903)
acryon (2)	Atarashi Hajimari (1660), Auro (1929)
GuiltyLion (1)	Titus (1514)
Not Voting (3)	GuiltyLion (1780), acryon (1820), skitter30 (1877)

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. The Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2020-05-14 17:47:59).

eve is also voting acryon. i'm rather suspicious of this wagon ngl

Are you trying to say acryon is a scum counterwagon to eve? pushed by an Auro/Eve scumteam?

- Smarter

[skitter30]

no i'm just trying to say that i don't like the current acryon wagon and i don't get why it's a thing or where it came from really

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

What about it don't you like though? Do you think anyone on the wagon is scum?

- Smarter

[skitter30]

i don't like how eve lolsheeped auro there
i don't like auro's vote either

atarashi's is ok i guess

[Titus]

i don't like how eve lolsheeped auro there
i don't like auro's vote either

atarashi's is ok i guess

Vote motion doesn't make sense for an eve/auro scumteam unless they felt super threatened by acryon or deliberately vote fucking.

[skitter30]

i know, i think that eve's more likely scum here than auro, which is why i'm voting there

also idk why that team would be super threatened by acryon either

[Atarashi Hajimari]

I'm around but I'm at work. Imma start re-reading stuff now but surface thoughts since I last posted:

The recent acryon/limit interaction gut pinged me super hard as sketchy - potential s/s interaction. Not sure how much of it is my previous bias of thinking scum!acryon = true, but imma check that out closer

I think skitter is probably town tonally speaking. Her behavior here is similar to a game I played with her recently (that's still ongoing).

@skitter: you've been pretty insistent that acryon is town. Walk me through your read.

[Atarashi Hajimari]

In post 212, acryon wrote:
In post 163, GuiltyLion wrote:
If [acryon] himself can see that his post didn't look like scumhunting then he needs to give more explanation as to whether and/or why he finds me suspicious for calling that out.

I thought of a (probably bad) analogy.

GuiltyLion rolls up on acryon's house and sees him working in the front by some soil where he's planting seeds. GuiltyLion says "Wow that's a bad garden. You don't even have anything growing." Not only would it be 1) disingenuous and silly to criticize the garden at that stage, it's also 2) possible acryon is planting the seeds exactly right, and it is going to be a good garden. I'm less interested in arguing 2), but 1) is why I have an issue with what GL did.


1. I'm really not a fan of people making analogies like this that are (self-admittedly, and correctly admitted) bad without elaborating as to why it's an accurate analogy almost immediately after. It's a cheap distracting tactic from back in my high school debate days.

2. But to revisit the analogy anyway since other people seem to have liked it - we're ~1500 posts beyond the planting of this proverbial garden. Ask yourselves this question: what's come of this proposed scumhunting of Acryon's that pinged so many of you? The veggies have grown, ripened, and rotted back down to compost and literally nothing has come from it. Unless it's 'still growing', in which case GL's argument of acryon planting 'rocks instead of seeds' seems pretty likely.

Hey acryon, before you go criticizing eve's scumhunting why dont you respond to this part of my original casing against you where I question if your scumhunting is genuine?

[Atarashi Hajimari]

The formatting there is super bad, but I'm on my phone so whatever

[Atarashi Hajimari]

And to be clear, acryon's doing a lot of the same things he's scumreading eve for - following along with popular consensus and avoiding thinking too deeply about the game. I really dont see my vote changing baring extreme circumstances