Newbie 2003: Earth [game over!]

[Datisi]

Official Vote Count 1.final

---

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Lynching

Quick

(5): Apogee, DkKoba, Ydrasse, votato, joqiza

[LYNCH]

votato

(4): midwaybear, Maduisha, enomis, Quick

Not Voting

(0):

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-05-15 10:45:00).

Mod notes:

• ...

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[Datisi]

day 1 lynch - quick

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Quick has been lynched Day 1. He was a

Vanilla Townie

.

The sun sets, it is now Night 1. Sunrise in (expired on 2020-05-17 12:25:00).

[/area]

[Datisi]

night 1 kill - midwaybear

---

midwaybear has been killed Night 1. He was a

Vanilla Townie

.

The sun rises, it is now Day 2.

[/area]

[Datisi]

Official Vote Count 2.00

---

With 7 votes in play, it takes 4 to lynch.

Lynching

Everybody

(0): Nobody

Not Voting

(7): joqiza, Apogee, Maduisha, Ydrasse, votato, enomis, DkKoba

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-05-24 12:30:00).

Mod notes:

• ...

[/area]

[Maduisha]

Alright, going to make the proposal of pressuring Joqiza together today to squeeze tells from him because nobody wanted to hear me out D1 and people don't seem to like the idea of lynching his partner Votato. Joqiza has done scummy shit that I already pointed out before over and over, and he got away with it for free because people were not feeling comfortable from jumping out of the Quick wagon and I think that was a big mistake, so let's get the ball rolling.

VOTE: Joqiza

Furthermore, his fake "consideration" to choose who he was voting was staged and clearly fake. He saw me accusing Votato of being fake with his petition for time and tried to patch it and make it look legit by faking an ISO read. I think it's clear why he hammered Quick regardless of his towntells: he did not want to bus his partner D1 because that's death sentence, but tried to play slightly indecisive so people would think he actually considered it and buy their bullshit distancing.

[Maduisha]

And now, I think we should evaluate and theorize about the NK. They killed Midway because he was widely townread, I think that's obvious. And I think Votato is the responsible. He was constantly saying Midway couldn't die because he was good for scum to have around, yet he killed Midway to protect himself with wifom because he said he would not die, so it looks like "he wouldn't say this if he was going to kill him" and make himself more believable.

[Maduisha]

I want to illustrate my point because I feel like people will see me with a tinfoil hat for seeing a scumpair this early instead of taking me seriously, so I will bring Joqiza's "progression" to the table so we can all discuss with material on the table:

Spoiler:

no i'm not hammering votato jfc

Here is when he made clear the fact that he was

not

hammering Votato. I called this out, so he will make some hedging to make it look like he is doubting himself and analyzing when he is clearly not going to hammer Votato. We know this because Votato was also very relaxed at L-1 with no signs of thinking he is going down thanks to there being 0 intent to hammer for himself and his partner being the "main" hammer holder.

yeah, we know you're a mafia goon.

why did you say mafia goon here? like why specify the role

Here we can spot how he is faking his ISO read of Votato to make it look like he is "considering" things. How do we know that? Well, look at the post he is replying to. Where have we seen this before? Ah yes, he is leeching off of Quick's ISO read and grabbing the post he quoted in [1936] to make it look like he is investigating too. Fake push, fake question, fake interest.

4. im not interested in convincing you. you've decided to tunnel me. thats fine, i dont need to convince you since youre gonna just confirmation bias everything i say. i just need to convince 6 townies. or really just 4 townies.

here u r referring to midwaybear and saying that bear is "conf biasing" you which implies he is town, but u say you "just need to convince 6 townies" like if bear is 1 townie and there are 6 other townies that's 7 townies and that only leaves you as scum ???

Here he continues to do the same. Fake push to make it look like he is considering.

eh i'm gonna wait for votato to respond to what i asked before i go into things too deeply

"Before I go into things too deeply" yeah, this is scummy. "I'm tunneling on the guy I already said I was not going to hammer by using other people's investigation! I should totally take a step back." Please.

Alright I kind of came into this thinking that quick vs votato might be TvT but I kind of FOS quick after this, like I'm just floored by how quickly he jumped onto the "scumslips" and how he basically wanted votato lynched before he could respond. I feel like anyone with any decent amount of experience should know that these sort of statements aren't really alignment indicative, both town and mafia do this kind of weird shit you see genuine certified scumslips very very rarely. and in fact it's funny because if you look in his iso one of the first posts he makes is this, so yah, he is aware.

I have only read about 8% of the game or less fwiw.

how can we take you seriously then? did you see a scumslip or something?

I pretty much never see Scum slips. I am pretty biased against them actually.

Now Votato is town and Quick is too! But he still gets to hammer a player he already said is town because he

magically

reached the conclusion that they're both town when there's no time to rearrange wagons and lynch someone else, and he knows everyone prefers a bad lynch to no lynch. Why hammer himself and get his hands dirty? Because if he leaves the hammer up to someone else, they might hammer our friend Votato and that's a big no-no, am I right?

anyway fellas i'm basically gonna hammer quick here in a bit i think my mind's pretty made up at this point. i went thru votato and I think he has some decent contributions today. I really like the push on maduisha starting 337, continuing in 478 and 487, kind of ending with 540 and 587. this push is a lot better and more thorough i feel like then what he was doing previously. now to be fair he did do this AFTER i pointed out why his earlier pushes were kind of weak, so he might've just adapted this game, but in any case he's certainly done more for us than quick has done. i feel like his responses to bear's case in 803 and 804 are decent too btw

And the conclusion of why Votato is town and a worse lynch than Quick is just bad. "I liked he pushed Maduisha so I'm gonna hammer the person that did not" yadda, yadda... if you wanted me pushed or lynched, why didn't you vote me

at all

during D1 while scumreading during the whole day, Joqiza? What kind of town strategy is this? You're not getting away with it for two days, if you start running away from my question you're claiming scum.

I think the fake hesitation is real and should be looked at closely during D2.

[midwaybear]

Bah post

[votato]

so i think at this point that there is probably scum in joqiza and maduisha. Leaning towards it being joq. This kill is interesting. It's such a bad kill that it tells me that it was probably not SEs doing the kill. Midway was not the towniest player and certainly wasn't contributing. I don't want to get into wifom, but i think this kill actually clears me. There's no world in which liking midway helps scum!me. Yes he was tunnelling me. But he didn't have a case and no one was listening to him. I had no reason to kill him and the kill implicates me. Actually i think maduisha is on to something here. VOTE: joqiza

[enomis]

I am glad about this kill of midway actually. Auto, he is quite a universal townread, I am glad we got rid of one of the spammer in the games, together with the lynch on quick yesterday. Will make reading the game much easier.

Anyway, I think the kill on Midway may be because he soft-claimed PR.(With the "DOC ON ME" shout). At least that is how I view it. So mafia may have the same perception as me when kiling midway, because I see no way how they would kill midway today other than this.

Thus this kill may implicates guys who are more perceptive/experienced. So maybe DkKoba / Joqiza / Me.

---------------------------------------------

Lastly, I have a townread on Votato. I can't explain more on this but the gist is that I happen to read one of his on-going games and got a townread from there. Take it what you will.

I probably need to find time to re-read which I am dreading because of the spams. Because I am townreading almost everyone and that gives me a poe scum of joqiza/dkkoba.

[enomis]

As of now, I don't really have any strong scumreads.

I don't feel like getting into an argument with dkkoba, which will be another back and forth without much results.

Will try to find motivation to re-read the game.

[DkKoba]

mafia can't even PR read I'm dead asf.
also I've been wanting to start from here: VOTE: ydrasse

[DkKoba]

And now, I think we should evaluate and theorize about the NK. They killed Midway because he was widely townread, I think that's obvious. And I think Votato is the responsible. He was constantly saying Midway couldn't die because he was good for scum to have around, yet he killed Midway to protect himself with wifom because he said he would not die, so it looks like "he wouldn't say this if he was going to kill him" and make himself more believable.

"universally townread"

literally by whom.

[DkKoba]

so i think at this point that there is probably scum in joqiza and maduisha. Leaning towards it being joq. This kill is interesting. It's such a bad kill that it tells me that it was probably not SEs doing the kill. Midway was not the towniest player and certainly wasn't contributing. I don't want to get into wifom, but i think this kill actually clears me. There's no world in which liking midway helps scum!me. Yes he was tunnelling me. But he didn't have a case and no one was listening to him. I had no reason to kill him and the kill implicates me. Actually i think maduisha is on to something here. VOTE: joqiza

this kill absolutely implicates u. and midway being town really is bad news for you.

[DkKoba]

the thing is midway was extremely scummy and with quick flipping town they were really in a position where they looked more informed than they should be with their weird way of townreading quick.

[joqiza]

Alright, going to make the proposal of pressuring Joqiza together today to squeeze tells from him because nobody wanted to hear me out D1 and people don't seem to like the idea of lynching his partner Votato. Joqiza has done scummy shit that I already pointed out before over and over, and he got away with it for free because people were not feeling comfortable from jumping out of the Quick wagon and I think that was a big mistake, so let's get the ball rolling.

VOTE: Joqiza

Furthermore, his fake "consideration" to choose who he was voting was staged and clearly fake. He saw me accusing Votato of being fake with his petition for time and tried to patch it and make it look legit by faking an ISO read. I think it's clear why he hammered Quick regardless of his towntells: he did not want to bus his partner D1 because that's death sentence, but tried to play slightly indecisive so people would think he actually considered it and buy their bullshit distancing.

Imagine thinking that votato and I are a scumteam and I left my partner on L-1 for 24 HOURS. ON DAY 1 LOL I couldve hammered quick at any time and been done with it but I wanted to give him a chance. Somehow despite posting 366 times he didn't even read the game, i don't regret it and i made the optimal decision with the information i had to work with. quick/votato probably TvT anyway II'm guessing I didn't even have a shot at a correct hammer. maybe should have led a counterwagon but i wasn't liking quick's posts at EoD

[joqiza]

what "scummy shit" have I done btw Maduisha except not vote me when u were getting wagoned. For the record I checked back and on page 20 when you got taken to L-1 I LITERALLY WASN'T EVEN THERE. I don't get it if you're saying I should've voted you and not Apogee when I was pressuring Apogee, like I thought it more important at the time to try to get a reaction from Apogee, I've explained this a hundred times. At this point I am either 1. talking to a brick wall or 2. talking to someone engaging in bad faith

i'm not gonna bother responding to the "should've voted push" anymore it's dumb and irrelevant, I don't care if that gets me lynched, I truly cannot be assed to respond to that kind of read

[joqiza]

Honestly imagine thinking that I would literally just hammersit as scum and draw all the attention to myself when I could have hopped on the quick wagon at any time. Yeah I had reservations about his slot, it sucks that I ended up being right about clemency's slot but that I ended up SRing quick, but it really did feel like he was jumping opportunistically at the votato “scumslips” and then tried a scummy counterwagon attempt on DkKoba. I genuinely didn’t SR either dk or votato yesterday and I still don’t really even though votato’s opening post today is frighteningly bad

[joqiza]

In case anyone needs clarification on why I ended up lynching Quick, it felt like the basis for his reads lacked any foundation and were generated opportunistically to push some sort of agenda rather than coming from any natural framework. His main reason for SRing votato was that votato’s ISO was full of “scumslips” when he posted about being biased against using slips to determine alignment. He made a lot of reads on people based on their level of effort but invalidated my own reads when I did the exact same thing. I understand that town can play that way, but at the end of the day I had to either 1. Hammer votato, 2. Hammer quick, 3. Try to gather votes on a counterwagon, and the people I would have been willing to counterwagon I don’t think I could have even gathered the votes for. I told Quick multiple times I believe that I was open to a counterwagon and if more people were online yesterday maybe we could've wagoned Maduisha. I did say exactly when I was gonna hammer by the way. The fact that all Quick could do was rage at Dk and votato and then after I made my case he basically just AtEd me with his "you're all so bad, I'm the only good one here" is what sealed his fate.

[joqiza]

so i think at this point that there is probably scum in joqiza and maduisha. Leaning towards it being joq. This kill is interesting. It's such a bad kill that it tells me that it was probably not SEs doing the kill. Midway was not the towniest player and certainly wasn't contributing. I don't want to get into wifom, but i think this kill actually clears me. There's no world in which liking midway helps scum!me. Yes he was tunnelling me. But he didn't have a case and no one was listening to him. I had no reason to kill him and the kill implicates me. Actually i think maduisha is on to something here. VOTE: joqiza

This is probably one of the worst posts I've seen since I started playing forum mafia so I want to break it down for you line by line.

“so i think at this point that there is probably scum in joqiza and maduisha” – what is the justification for this analysis? Why is there a scum in the two of us and it can’t be TvT? I’m not even saying I disagree with you but you don’t get to throw out this kind of stuff without any justification

“Leaning towards it being joq” how did you go from being willing to counterwagon maduisha with me to leaning towards it being me? This is a complete 180

“It's such a bad kill that it tells me that it was probably not SEs doing the kill.” and so your conclusion is it was me? Lmao don’t think I missed the missing logical step here which is that “yeah and joq is shit”

“Midway was not the towniest player and certainly wasn't contributing” sure

“. I don't want to get into wifom, but i think this kill actually clears me. There's no world in which liking midway helps scum!me.” LMFAO. For the record, the kill should neither kill nor implicate you, it could come from you as scum trying to remove a threat, it could come from scum outside of you trying to frame you, and any evaluation of your slot should use the nightkill as secondary information to your overall body of work this game. Anyone who tries to pivot off the nightkill to justify a position is on my radar rn. Ur making me wish I hammered you

“Yes he was tunnelling me. But he didn't have a case and no one was listening to him.” You had four votes on you yesterday

“I had no reason to kill him and the kill implicates me.” See above

“Actually i think maduisha is on to something here.” you better have a good explanation for this complete 180 on maduisha because last I checked we were on the same page. She is accusing us of being a scumteam btw did you happen to miss that LOL

[Apogee]

VOTE: votato

I honestly need a big refresher on a lot of what has happened, partially because of how a few important posts have been buried in the last thirty pages (guys, this is like the 4th longest newbie game in the last 50 and it is just day 2 jeez). Votato has done scummy actions for a while, and I think my last read on them was too generous on early posts. His post above is another case of votato hopping on a wagon as the second vote for dubious reasons, while trying to look committed kind of regardless of earlier reads. I think more pressure is needed on him.

I do want to delve into the nk and eod voting patterns more, but with the caveat of (like Joqiza said) we won't be able to positively determine who is scum, but I think we can gain some information into what different scenarios are more or less consistant.

[DkKoba]

Its my sisters 13th bday today so participatipn will be sparse but fully expect ISOs for everyone when i get home from work tomorrow.

[DkKoba]

I'm not happy that quick was so anti town and has a stupid gimmick that they likely use to cover their scum game instead of being pro town

[Ydrasse]

@maduisha

Spoiler:

Alright, going to make the proposal of pressuring Joqiza together today to squeeze tells from him because nobody wanted to hear me out D1 and people don't seem to like the idea of lynching his partner Votato. Joqiza has done scummy shit that I already pointed out before over and over, and he got away with it for free because people were not feeling comfortable from jumping out of the Quick wagon and I think that was a big mistake, so let's get the ball rolling.

VOTE: Joqiza

Furthermore, his fake "consideration" to choose who he was voting was staged and clearly fake. He saw me accusing Votato of being fake with his petition for time and tried to patch it and make it look legit by faking an ISO read. I think it's clear why he hammered Quick regardless of his towntells: he did not want to bus his partner D1 because that's death sentence, but tried to play slightly indecisive so people would think he actually considered it and buy their bullshit distancing.

hey, here i am listening to you d2.

i think your vote analysis about why votato and quick weren't in the same position was really telling, honestly — i didn't give it too much thought until i reread over the night, which was too late given the fact i was around during the hammer itself. i also think that your explanation about the midway kill makes sense as it's the simplest reason: wifom.

i do think that not voting you during the push on you isn't the biggest red flag out of everything, though.

also, theoretically: if joqiza is mafia, do you think there is a chance that votato is town at all and it's instead dkkoba? dkkoba's hardtunnel on quick was biased i think from the start but i'm unsure if it's just a very stubborn town player or a scum player playing super, super aggressively.

@dkkoba

Spoiler:

mafia can't even PR read I'm dead asf.
also I've been wanting to start from here: VOTE: ydrasse

hit me with whatever questions you got.

@joqiza

Spoiler:

Alright, going to make the proposal of pressuring Joqiza together today to squeeze tells from him because nobody wanted to hear me out D1 and people don't seem to like the idea of lynching his partner Votato. Joqiza has done scummy shit that I already pointed out before over and over, and he got away with it for free because people were not feeling comfortable from jumping out of the Quick wagon and I think that was a big mistake, so let's get the ball rolling.

VOTE: Joqiza

Furthermore, his fake "consideration" to choose who he was voting was staged and clearly fake. He saw me accusing Votato of being fake with his petition for time and tried to patch it and make it look legit by faking an ISO read. I think it's clear why he hammered Quick regardless of his towntells: he did not want to bus his partner D1 because that's death sentence, but tried to play slightly indecisive so people would think he actually considered it and buy their bullshit distancing.

Imagine thinking that votato and I are a scumteam and I left my partner on L-1 for 24 HOURS. ON DAY 1 LOL I couldve hammered quick at any time and been done with it but I wanted to give him a chance. Somehow despite posting 366 times he didn't even read the game, i don't regret it and i made the optimal decision with the information i had to work with. quick/votato probably TvT anyway II'm guessing I didn't even have a shot at a correct hammer. maybe should have led a counterwagon but i wasn't liking quick's posts at EoD

i think the main reason why letting votato sit for so long doesn't stand as a particularly strong defense is that the people that wanted to lynch him were already on him, and the few that remained had already stated outright that they weren't going to vote votato. i said i wasn't going to, dkkoba had explicitly said they were only voting quick, votato didn't really have much of an option otherwise given that there wasn't going to be a counterwagon in the time we had left, and apogee had kept a vote on quick for a longass time and was definitely convinced they were scum as well.

it was safe, if you were scum, to leave him at l-1 because no one was gonna flip to him, and thus it becomes a plausible reason for someone later to townread you. "oh, i definitely gave them both time to make their cases, don't you worry." this is of course if votato is your partner.

similarly, post 2192 is wifomy in a way that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. "Honestly imagine thinking that I would literally just hammersit as scum and draw all the attention to myself when I could have hopped on the quick wagon at any time." this quote feeds into the idea that you might just be using that you didn't hammer votato for so long as a defense.

dunno man. your tone in these last few posts seems super defensive, which, i get because you have two votes on you but saying that one is just an awful post and the other person a brick wall for having what i see to be feasible reasons for pushing on you just doesn't settle right. even now i think that there is a chance that votato is scum with you if you're maf; that it is an "awful post" for him pushing on you gives some merit to the idea that it's awful/baseline so you can deflect it easily and try to move suspicion away.

-

all being said, my current suspicions rest heavily on votato, joqiza, and dkkoba; the latter is the hardest for me to read, personally, because i do think there is a very good chance that the hardtunnel was a town player who got so sure of their reads that they couldn't really bring themselves to vote anyone else.

also, the thought's been at the back of my mind throughout this game but that dkkoba and joqiza are familiar with one another and using meta, etc might imply that one of them is using that as a way to get the trust of another? :< i dunno if they still read each other as town based on former gameplay though.

VOTE: joqiza

(l-1)

[DkKoba]

we're not speedlynching today.