Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[Prism]

Is that true? You've played multiple games with beeboy and they're a stronger player.

[Prism]

Will do more investigating to see how excited you'd be to see them but I think that alone is probably enough.

[Prism]

All of Page 30/31 are Chara sorting redtea and pressing for more attention there. This is better than plausible as scum, it's absolutely brilliant. This is easily the best play as scum, and it's not even close.

It wants to drum up interest elsewhere to save Ele, but it also needs to avoid being tied too tightly to saving the other goon. (If they vote Hectic and Ele gets flipped, they're in a horrible position. If Hectic-Ele get consecutively flipped, they're also in a terrible position). redtea is a bad candidate in that me/cat are both currently townreading them, but a great candidate to avoid deeper scrutiny of motivations no matter who winds up flipping. Compare that to a direct LHF push like Lav/Taylor.

We'll see how its stance on LHF fights evolves as the stakes get higher.

this is kind of funny. picking who to push based on the thread environment, based on the ideal candidate to save my partner, isn't something i think of. if i'm scum i push redtea because it feels right and like the natural thing to do because of the slot's posts. i don't make decisions like this.

The weird thing is that I completely believe you, from a scum perspective. You don't think of the game like me.

You might have come to it intuitively but it was absolutely brilliant.

[Prism]

I don't think my argument depends on them posting in thread at all. You might have specifically cited being dependent on chatting with partners to boost morale, but a stronger player you're familiar with repping into what was previously a dead axolotl in the water is more than enough to spark some hope.

[Prism]

I really don't buy this argument that you wouldn't get a boost at all from seeing beeboy rep-in to a deadweight scumslot in a game where scum really can't afford to get voted D1

You're not spending the time to seriously think about what you'd be like as scum Day 1, and you're also not just saying "Yeah the timing was weird but I was town who just came back"

[Prism]

Yes. Yes I do.

That's a slightly better answer, at least.

[Prism]

Even if the timing itself of you just

coming back

is ignored, your positioning around redtea/the beeboy slot in general are major redflags to me here.

[Prism]

Chara, respectfully, we both know there are reads coming that won't really add up, mainly Taylor and myself. I think you know this is the end of the line, too, and that I really do have all the pieces I need finally. Now all there is to hope no one else follows-and there's a great chance you don't get fought today-but that will only last so long.

I'm a bit sad this isn't a ballroom game where we could be together in death.

[Prism]

I'll do my due diligence and finish the reread, as always.

I am sorry things had to wind up this way,

darling

.

[Prism]

Scratch that I'm a liar I have to head out for the night whoops

I've previously linked you Don't Speak, So Far Away, at times you've served as the crucial spark for me referenced in Dancing in the Dark, and now I give you this.

I'll see you all soon, though, and wrap this reread up later!

[Prism]

Darling, I will be very sorry

regardless

of what you flip

but if you'll wait for me there, I will race to you in the afterlife as quickly as I can, town or scum be damned

If you choose to ask Nahdia for a sample of buttercups, know that I'll gladly ingest them with you, and the postgame/afterlife we've long awaited will finally come.

[Prism]

should be almost time for tanner to start daydrinking again

[Prism]

You always were too talented of an actr-it for your own good.

[Prism]

Alright the lovers in despair phone posting is amazing but I should let people actually play the game

[Prism]

MT, I think this post of mine might be of interest to you.

Keeping in mind that Isis announces the beeboy replace in the final post on page 29, I would really recommend looking at pages 30/31 as well.

[Prism]

Looks like you grabbed at least snippets of those pages already, my bad.

Also, I was the one with the Chara meta difference, not Hectic. I kind of grilled Hectic early because he walked into the same dumb pitfall he did last time.

[Prism]

I do think that specific timing is VERY relevant to both Puppy and Chara's posts, though, if you're not already looking at it from that angle

[Prism]

1) I really don't see why your interpretation is that it only works if Puppy is non-Chara. Your point seems to be that Puppy is trying to get a flip without attacking the slot too hard/leaving some plausible room for it to be scum if he flips (powershoving is clearing).

2) I think is just rolling with the MT/Hectic push of "well we can reconsider after, just flip em lol" school of thought

I think your tracethrough here is good, I just don't see the conclusion at the end at all

[Prism]

I will put together a single-post case on it at some point but my challenge to you is to skim the first 7 pages of the game and tell me who scum is.

[Prism]

Okay, so I'm pretty tired and not sure if I'll get the motivation to keep rereading.

Does anyone have anything that they want to talk to me about, though? Maybe it'll spark something in me or maybe we can just shoot the shit.

[Prism]

Krazy's been one of my most confident townreads for awhile. This is like, 99% coming just from the redtea slot, but I think the Puppy flip strengthens it.

[Prism]

As far as I know I'm the only other person really suspicious of Chara, so hearing more about your thoughts on them would be pretty cool!

[Prism]

LOL

okay i just read the first sentence let me read the whole post now

[Prism]

okay i read the whole post

definitely turbovoting you, i do love you darling, will respond to that in full

[Prism]

What do you mean what is the point in responding to it?

Do you like, not want your fears assuaged or something?

[Prism]

Hypothetically you're trying to sort me here. FMPOV this is worth responding to regardless of what you are-if you're scum it's worth refuting, if you're town it's worth getting you on the right track.

You just laid out a list of fears about me and how I've approached reading you this game. I'm telling you I can answer them. Your response is...no, why would you do that?

[Prism]

you aren't tonedeaf, 3661 alone makes it clear I'm ready to rip you apart

I'm asking you why you don't want your paranoia answered as town and your response is WELL WHY WOULD YOU ANSWER THAT like ??? there is 0 reason to be disinterested in my response as town here who is trying to sort me lmao

[Prism]

can you explain why you think your post was garbage?

[Prism]

ie. why is this not performative, the counterpoint you list is "well why would prism try and miselim me now?" (answer: i don't until much later, i take a hectic or pooky vote)

but this doesn't address any of the points you made. did you magically remember all of my posts about your progressions that slipped your mind in a haze or what?

[Prism]

you have such much to learn about matters of the heart. we should hydra sometime.

respectfully i'm too enamored to play mafia with you ever again, thanks/sorry

[Prism]

i've started thinking Prism is scum again because the disappointment is hitting that hard. like, i was locktown before,

but now all of the progressions Prism said they had no problem with previously are bad.

Fundamentally untrue, I have been openly skeptical of your reads for a long time, dating back to my very first "Tayl0r/Chara" theory, and I have made it extremely clear that what I have found town in your ISO has much more to do with how genuine your reactions are in the moment than anything to do with your reads.

Here's some samples:

FWIW I'm pretty sure I'm going on Taylor too, I'm more just bothered in that I know Hectic/Tayl0r isn't right.

I'm wrong on one of Hectic/Taylor. I just don't know which. If Tayl0r is scum, it might not matter.

Of all the town, Chara is the only one that isn't extremely town for their votes and progressions, but more for their extremely genuine reactions to events.

Their reaction to me was super good, and I put them at locktown for it...but once again every single player in this game is town.

Which leaves me again wondering if they're the Bodhi to my Johnny Utah

Chara's tone is exceptional. I don't just mean them sucking up to me and deflecting questions with compliments. I mean constantly interacting with several people in the game and reacting to events. Skimming a few scumgames made their ability to fabricate nuance and genuine reactions, and fast, very clear. Regardless of whether they're town this game, this approach needs to go in the trash.

But the question is: Can I remove all of that entirely, and just simple yes/no evaluate them on this question instead:

are their reads and the stances they've taken town? I already know there's one progression in general (Late Day 1 Taylor) that make me suspect no.

From when I first started to suspect it was you/Tayl0r:

This makes so much sense if Tayl0r is the Chara. Their entire push on Chara doesn't seem like they actually read the slot at all. Tayl0r says Puppy is their top SR, then never really pushes it while they flop over to catboi and then Chara. They're too sure that me/catboi are town. I don't like this.

Chara's side of the interactions are pretty decent, but then there's 882. Tayl0r suddenly being the closest thing to a scumread is extremely out of left field. I don't like the justification for Tayl0r +town they give in 1017

The only question here is: Why not push Lavender?

Hm.

803 and 817 does give some background to the Taylor "closest thing to a scumread" line. I didn't find this that implausible to fake at first glance but it does provide background. But there's still their pings on Puppy, the pings on Elements very early, and they've already started taking a look at redtea.

948 explains that they're mostly reverting to the Elements read/not seeing anything town from beeboy as reasons for the vote....but the vote in 906 was very presence/content-oriented.

Hm. Hm. Hm. Need to review 120s and 160.

I've also made it extremely clear that I think your ability to react in seemingly genuine ways in real time is superb, and I've specifically said repeatedly it is the main reason to find you town despite knowing this is in your arsenal. You acknowledge this is a stance of mine later in the post, I don't think I need to prove this.

and it looks good and all because they're going through the whole game again and putting in an admirable mountain of effort, but the conclusion is so backwards.
even things like talking about how my redtea suspicion was a "brilliant" move for scum me, and giving this analysis for why. and when pointed out that i don't play the game this way and Prism knows it, they say they still believe in their reasoning and that i must have intuitively made the best choice. where's the basis in my ability to do something as magical as that?

I mean I can't really prove which way I'm reading the game but I do want to note that I actually went back to reread all of Day 1 under the mindset that you were town. This made how bad I found the early Puppy/Ele interactions extremely jarring.

and Prism can say whatever they want about my play, really, and can toss away the ISO that they've admitted is absurdly towny, again by using the prequel game to say that i'm just that good at scum, so any towniness in my posts must be faked.

This actually wasn't just the prequel game, I did a full meta dive and found numerous games that had the same ingratiating tone. I'm pretty sure the game that alerted me to this is

vonflare lasertag[/url].

it's weird that upon reread, it's not that Prism found some things that show i'm actually scum. it's that upon reread, my

entire ISO

is suspect. how is that realistic? surely Prism should be able to recognize some measure of bias from a conclusion like that. not just my beeboy progression, not just my Prism progression, but every stance i've taken is now suspect? Prism even made a comment about how "we both know i'm going to reach your Taylor progression and find more evidence". that's not good-faith hunting, that's looking for evidence that fits me being scum.

...Is this really weird that I'm finding your interactions with a now-flipped scum in a new light, reading the game progressively rather than ISO, and making a connection in timing that is obviously brand new and that I've never brought up before?

Me pressuring/bantering with you with the "we both know" really doesn't say anything other than...I know there's more upcoming that I won't like, and have a history of not liking. As my quotes above show, I have always been extremely skeptical of that Taylor read.

it also feels like they're using Puppy scum as an excuse to say that because Puppy was townread and was scum, a towny ISO can be disregarded. Chara can be scum, it could have fooled me this hard because Puppy managed it, right?

? Literally was paranoid of you despite finding your tone extremely town all of Day 2, well before Puppy flip. It's not because of Puppy, it's because it's you and your progressions to me are a lot more sketchy than anyone else's.

[Prism]

ie. why is this not performative, the counterpoint you list is "well why would prism try and miselim me now?" (answer: i don't until much later, i take a hectic or pooky vote)

but this doesn't address any of the points you made. did you magically remember all of my posts about your progressions that slipped your mind in a haze or what?

er, no? i don't know what you mean by the last paragraph, but if you're telling me scum Prism would indeed be doing what you're doing now... well, great, then. i still don't think you're mafia.

I want you to explain in your own words why you think your post was garbage.

The point you gave to counter me being scum-which seemed to be "Why does Prism push me?"-had nothing to do with anything you brought up. It was a separate point, even if you find it persuasive, that doesn't

make your other points garbage

[Prism]

Chara, regardless of what you are, whether you're feeling depressed as scum or depressed that I'm town driving you to the second straight misfight (as I do) while you don't even know who scum is either and oh god help us all

you're exceptional.

[Prism]

now that that's said

From the perspective of Chara town, I'm confused by what you're thinking and where you're really going here. You typed up the giant wall on me with a mix of tangible points and intangible suspicions. They disappeared with the "but why push me?" Maybe you called it garbage for lack of confidence or something. Maybe, after realizing I'm town despite those points, you didn't want me to tear down something that was more raw emotion/you really thought/worked on for awhile.

Your next step here seems to be to engage with others in dialogue. That's totally fair, not that much point talking to the tunneling moron. But like, you're openly confused as to who scum is, and you presumably know that it's one of your townreads even as you work your way around the circle of "Who do I sheep?" circle.

This sort of weird, "Try to dialogue with/sheep other townreads" just seems to be in contrast to the whole "I'm confused and doubting my townreads and who is scum, maybe Pooky?" bit

I'm sorry that I'm pretty brutal.

[Prism]

Vonflare's was just the one that came to mind, I would need to review again to really find more but my point in citing it was that I had a two-game sample size of your tone being very, very good even though this would be a step up

Also, I've done a bad job of sticking to "shelve the flirtation, this is a mafia game". To be blunt, I don't think this is acceptable, especially since I acknowledged it being a problem previously. Consider this my last warning to myself.

[Prism]

i guess you mean an emotional contrast? like you find it weird that i'm simultaneously lost and also having fairly normal interactions with players that aren't you?

I think this was a pretty incomplete thought of mine. The mindset I'm ascribing to you is that you seem to be doubting both yourself and your reads as town here, so I'm wondering what your next move is here.

Your read on MT is especially curious to me given its combination of strength and inability to back it. On an emotional level, we all have reads like this. On a rational level, we know that there's a limit to how much we can trust that.

[Prism]

it's an emotional rollercoaster, but that's just tuesday.

same

[Prism]

I'll give space for others here-especially for Chara who has had me breathing down their neck-and take a step back, but I will review Hectic's case on Pooky and try and get a bit further on my reread.

[Prism]

I would encourage you to keep going-I concurred with your conclusion that you needed to be more confident. It's good to see that engine get a kickstart.

That said, if you need to sleep, it is rather late. But it'd be great to see you carry forward this energy and confidence into tomorrow.

I don't think you're town. But if you are, you're clearly in a better position to win us the game than I am: that alone should give you more confidence. I, and we, need you in order to win.

[Prism]

Alright, we're back on the grind.

Pooky, given the timeline stuff I pointed out, can you give me quick bulletpoints to why you're still suspicious of Hectic? I do know that I still need to check into Hectic's Puppy progression on Day 2.

Hectic, I wish I had some bigger question for you but I don't, Pooky is probably town, reread Day 1 and stop working backwards gdi

[Prism]

Reading Day 1 results:

Pooky: TOWNSQUAD interactions are absolutely baller
Tanner: Start is kinda town, EOD is a bit sketchy, reacting to Pooky's Ele post was great. Probably town for D1? Why am I even typing something about this slot given D2?
Morning: Goddamnit why is there only really tone here, Ele progression was ehhhh but lean town still?
Chara: By far the worst (not in quality but in scummy/town) reads progressions. The only real +town point here is them not pushing Tayl0r somewhere in the later 30s/early 40s.
Hectic: Super town interactions early, a bit sketchy later as Puppy unvotes him without voting Elements.
Lavender: ??????????
redtea/Krazy: I still have this slot town for the meta but the interactions here were pretty solid too

tl;dr: it's probably chara but the later pages introduce some ambiguity.

[Prism]

Ele progression was ehhhh but lean town still?

this is really just coming from the unvote they had

does morning even like to bus though? like she had plenty of freedom iirc

I just hate dismissing the slot as town for gut/liking individual posts rather than like, finding something much more concrete

[Prism]

someday pooky i'm gonna read that hectic puppy progression for you

it'll probably be in the morning since i've done everything else i wanted basically with the d1 reread, not like it takes an hour

like i don't really know what there is left for me to really do at this point. i think everyone but chara is town.

the grocery shopping list is like, find something more concrete for morning. make extra, EXTRA sure on morning. try to read krazy instead of just redtea? make extra, EXTRA sure on pooky?

I just feel done tbh

[Prism]

I really think it kind of fell apart on page 148. The wall+calling it garbage immediately thereafter you can chalk up to self-esteem or lack of confidence, combined with thinking I'm town anyway. Sure, it happens, whatever

What happens when I say I'm going to respond...not so much

you're already voting me, love.
what's the point in responding to it? i don't even believe in it, ibwas just frustrated.

why do

you

care about assuaging my fears?

i'll rephrase: why do you care about convincing me you're town?

In no world was this ever going to be a "gotcha". It visibly does not know whether to try and 1v1 me and see if they can somehow survive after, or whether to just hope I go away over time. It settled on not doing so but then I position super aggressively with laughing at the wall+the turbovote comment and it immediately does this weird positioning that seems to want to push me for responding to it, even if it leaves it unsaid.

I just don't think it had any clue how to position themselves here to survive longterm. I don't think they were genuinely sorting me at all that page.

[Prism]

And like, I know it's busy. I know it's been on/off with its motivation all game. We've all been there.

But vote Pooky, Pooky if you're town... -> Oh shit Pooky actually responded to what I said and seems to have the citations for it -> Whoops uhhh tomorrow's homework -> AWOL all day

It doesn't have any clue what the path forward here is imo, like my bet is they immediately regretted giving Pooky that concrete way to change its mind

[Prism]

Congratulations to the scumteam. I was particularly impressed with redtea's play Day 1, Puppy's tonal play throughout, and the worst's play upon replacein. I especially am impressed with Puppy's play, and willingness to press on, given his role as the Chara and the woeful state of the partner slot. Without commenting on the trust tell, I don't want to take away from Krazy-I just didn't read his play much given my redtea read, and I assume it was equally as strong. I was thoroughly beaten. Congratulations.

This was a classic Prism towngame. Any further description is redundant. I want to extend my apologies to all of the town alive on Day 2, and express how grateful I am to have been here with all of you-Hectic, Chara, Tweet, Pooky, Lav, Tanner, and Taylor. (catboi gets nothing) Thank you all for the effort and love you put into this game. You turned a game that I looked at with only apathetic misery into something incredibly fun to be a part of-and tolerated me despite the implications this had for the game.

I also want to thank Noraa for replacing in and doing my slot justice, even if it wasn't the result any of us wanted.

I don't think I have any other comments of substance.

[Prism]

Also, the theory that I replaced out because of Nacho was false.

I don't want to go further into why I replaced out, but in a normal world I would have been very happy to have gotten the chance to play with him.

[Prism]

While I regret the result, I also want to say that I regret nothing about how I played this game. The fact that this would have ended in a town win if I simply hadn't cared is secondary. I don't regret the hours spent reading, the late nights thinking, or the long discussions had. I don't regret the days and weeks of obsession, and of believing in myself, believing in others, and challenging both myself and the other players to rise to the occasion, even if I did it all only to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

There are mistakes, not everything went how I and we wanted, and my obsession was naturally a double-edged sword that crowded others out. Adjustments are always to be made.

But I don't regret how much I love and effort I invested in this game, nor do I regret throwing all of that away without a second thought.

I forgot to thank the most important person-Isis. Thank you for running this, for getting me to play, for listening to my private rambling, and for dealing with how high-maintenance I could be. You were a great moderator, but you're an even greater friend. Thank you.

[Prism]

A town Prism made 800+ posts, and not a scum one.

Making this argument persuasive is the tougher part, and it was very sad to not see Nacho given the chance to explain it. My intuition, that might be wrong, is that he correctly drew the parallel to Dystopia! and/or Emperor. He is also probably the most familiar onsite with my scumgame, and knows that while I hardcarry every game I flip scum in, I despise the alignment and find it very boring to play.

[Prism]

As a side note, 1264 is the moment I realized it wasn't rolling scum that I hated: It was not putting 110% into games. It was more apparent as scum due to my bad habit of playing to the level of the table.

The minute I hit the switch, this game became significantly more enjoyable.