TM 2021 - Black Flag Nightless

[MathBlade]

So basically, I’m less sure on infinity and math has made the koba!slot worse imo. Which then brings me to my final reason for switching: I feel like it’s gonna be easier killing math today. I think infinity has sort of locked himself into a bad position as scum because he knows I’m very dubious of him but by insisting he super duper TRs me I think that’s a hard place to pivot out of it I push him tomorrow for instance (which I will prob be doing if math doesn’t flip scum). Whereas I feel like it’s going to be another absolute fucking slogfest to elim math tomorrow if I *am* wrong on infinity, and so for that reason I think I’d rather reverse the order rn

This is similar to my current reasoning.

In my view, a block of myself/Menalque/Lilith/Auro probably wins the game, with the possibility that one of the other three might be a deepwolf. If there's like more than 1 wolf in there than my view of the game is cracked. My current interest is in finding one more slot to add to that block that I feel is most likely to be a villager and who has the least partner equity with the slots currently in the bloc that have deepwolf potential.

Following that, Autumn's response of "okay, well you/Mena/Lilith are all obvtown, let's find one more villager who's not me," and then voting the person I said he's most likely to be teamed with, is fairly disarming. town!Autumn is an asset because, he, like, actually has a pulse and is following this game and living in roughly the same universe I'm living in, and simultaneously, scum!Autumn has kind of backed himself into a corner and has made it extremely difficult for himself to pivot without becoming blatantly obvious.

I think most of Math's posts so far have sucked. I'm willing to entertain that they just suck cuz he had to sub into a jungle of a game and he's not able to parse it yet. If they continue to suck he can eat rope.

I really just want to work on finding one more villager for the block and then pushing that block through and anyone who gets in my way can die. If people think the block is unpure they can say it with their chest instead of making vague histrionics about townblocks or deepwolves. In my view the block wins the game for town, so if you're playing against what I believe to be town's win condition you can get chopped. If you think my view of the game is wrong then bring me reasons, I'm listening.

Yay! At least someone gets the block strategy. But see this I respect. This posting is much better than Menalque’s keep J in your townblock.

[MathBlade]

Math also seems vaguely disingenuous if his whole thing is “a townbloc wins the game but only if I’m a member” is his position, which is kinda what it seems like to me

That is not my position AT ALL. This is horrible blatantly bad misrep. My position is that of J’s mentioned above. Find a townblock that is mutually agreed upon and execute outside of it. Re-evaluate said block on occasion then keep going.

[MathBlade]

I’m also not sure it’s exactly a bloc because of you/auro, fb/me, my diminished but still somewhat present auro paranoia

Would you elim any of those players today? No okay, then that’s your town block. Paranoia is good. Setting limits is also good.

[MathBlade]

Oh, right

I think fb is prob going to continue to tunnel me all game so I wouldn’t necessarily call this aligning, but I think if we can win before a lylo with both of us in it and I can stop him getting much influence in the game that probably isn’t a problem

Why does this read like it comes from a scum PT?

[MathBlade]

That doesn’t seem like a super helpful question, auro

Someone please explain why Menal is a townread other than (oh just reread the pages). That very much looks like a wool over the eyes response when someone doesn’t like their reads questioned.

I am thinking Flopz/Johnny/AL/Menalque for my would elim pool.

[MathBlade]

I’d say talking about influence is fine but I think charisma can have an oog implication of what people are like just in terms of their personality and it’s sort of a blurred line. Like skitter for instance is a very charismatic person as is the duck but I’ve seen games where neither of them could get what they wanted at all and had no influence despite their charisma

I think influence-wise it seems like johnny/flopz/fb/infinity are probably towards the bottom

Chennis somewhere in the middle as is math

Then maybe auro?

Then probably lili

Then probably joqiza and me

This is more for funsies than to demonstrate any point but joqiza, if you could sort people this game purely by charisma (independent of alignment) how would it look like?

Lists like these are fundamentally useless. Good scum don’t appear to have charisma and good town don’t always either. If you appear to have charisma you’re selling versus displaying facts and convincing. It’s almost better to be mid/low tier for that.

[MathBlade]

Oh right

I mean, I would disagree with that so long as he continues to call me scum and one of my aims is to continue sidelining him so long as that continues

So you’ll listen to him so long as he townreads you? What if a majority of the game didn’t townread you? Surely there would be a reason. Someone’s reads/alignment aren’t dependent on whether they read you right, they’re dependent on logic and thoughts and bringing those to the table to find scum.

[MathBlade]

Oh right

I mean, I would disagree with that so long as he continues to call me scum and one of my aims is to continue sidelining him so long as that continues

So you’ll listen to him so long as he townreads you? What if a majority of the game didn’t townread you? Surely there would be a reason. Someone’s reads/alignment aren’t dependent on whether they read you right, they’re dependent on logic and thoughts and bringing those to the table to find scum.

[joqiza]

Someone please explain why Menal is a townread other than (oh just reread the pages). That very much looks like a wool over the eyes response when someone doesn’t like their reads questioned.

I am thinking Flopz/Johnny/AL/Menalque for my would elim pool.

There are many reasons, but one of the easiest ones is that Menalque got incredibly hostile earlier in the thread, in a way that, based on a post I saw by him in the Scummies Nominations Thread 2020, he would be much less willing to do as scum.

I think that pool is good otherwise.

My current theory is that Johnny vs. Autumn is actually SvS and this game is much easier than we're making it. scum!Autumn sees 3193 and votes Johnny to try to get their partner some towncred before they get chopped.

In this universe, the third would probably be Flopz, who's currently trying to move the hang onto chen. But this is contingent on scum!Autumn and scum!Johnny and the game would end before he gets resolved, anyway.

I think Johnny/Autumn are both good options and I think there's a decent chance both wagons scum. I think Johnny is a slightly better choice than Autumn for reasons I've stated.

[MathBlade]

do u think im scum? Cause ive been the biggest person against autumn wagon and i don't see who else is scum trying to ensure it doesn't happen?
maybe chennisden but who else?

I don't think they need to be explicitly loud voices, I think I'd go Chen then {Lilith/you} if game doesn't end.

Menal makes a good point here actually, in that scenario why is Lilitih in your POE after Infinity and Chen?

Now you’re listening to Menal? Wtf?

(Stopped here lunch break is over)

Define listening? Men question marked something Auro said that I thought was interesting to follow-up on. I think you're super jumping the gun rn

What made you change between 2600 and now to think Menalque to here? I apologize I don’t remember the exact post but it was something that jumped out to me last night/lunch.

[MathBlade]

Is anybody wanting to know anything?

Mastina reads if she's had a chance to read up.
Would you be able to catch up and form reads?

Mastina has been busy, replacing into something like this has to be hard.

Honestly speaking, catching up probably isn't going to happen.

I mean there’s also interest in infinity or in mathblade (or maybe in me?) so you can try to argue why one of those 3 slots would be a better flip than you or for someone else entirely

I mean they're all better than me, but I can't really say I've found any of those slots scummy. I think voting infinity would give more info than me, though.

VOTE: Infinity

What consequences?

Just a town flip. I was under the impression that this game didn't have roles?

I'm around for a while if anybody wants to chat

Why are you focused on info vs reads?

[MathBlade]

Auro what do you think of fb again?

By play, townread -> vibing with him, plus his defusing of unhealthy tension in the game. Also I read his mild AtE regarding the pointlessness of talking to Lilith towny.

Don't think him being reasonable is him being town -- I think he'd try to diffuse unhealthy tension regardless of alignment.

You don’t have a reliable “good at maths” kid

*Raises hand* Just let me

integrate

into the town block.

Haha. I will put you in the dont elim pile today.

This joke will be quite

derivative

of Auro's

Like the derivative of an line, my read on you stays constant. However it did get a chuckle out of me.

[MathBlade]

Flashwagoning mathblade would also be fun

Keeping me around would be fun

Keeping everyone around would be fun. Think we’d probably lose though. Why are you saying such spammy shit?

[MathBlade]

Someone please explain why Menal is a townread other than (oh just reread the pages). That very much looks like a wool over the eyes response when someone doesn’t like their reads questioned.

I am thinking Flopz/Johnny/AL/Menalque for my would elim pool.

There are many reasons, but one of the easiest ones is that Menalque got incredibly hostile earlier in the thread, in a way that, based on a post I saw by him in the Scummies Nominations Thread 2020, he would be much less willing to do as scum.

I think that pool is good otherwise.

My current theory is that Johnny vs. Autumn is actually SvS and this game is much easier than we're making it. scum!Autumn sees 3193 and votes Johnny to try to get their partner some towncred before they get chopped.

In this universe, the third would probably be Flopz, who's currently trying to move the hang onto chen. But this is contingent on scum!Autumn and scum!Johnny and the game would end before he gets resolved, anyway.

I think Johnny/Autumn are both good options and I think there's a decent chance both wagons scum. I think Johnny is a slightly better choice than Autumn for reasons I've stated.

Imho your reason toward Menalque town seems very superficial. Town and scum can both be toxic. A town player triggered me and the game ended up getting toxic destroying what was a very very good scum game and got lost in elo. Toxicity isn’t alignment indicative what’s said in that toxicity is. I have put it inside of a spoiler because of toxicity reasons and said user is banned.

Spoiler: Trigger warning talks of suicide

Had a deep wolf game in Heroes where myself and Nancy had town snowballed on mechanics. I suggested vigging a scumbuddy for cred. Another player suggested I kill myself in response. I responded authentically and things got bad. Toxicity is not alignment indicative

That being said I like your elim pool and am down for any of those, but I kinda don’t want to hammer unless y’all are okay with me reading over the 24 hour period. If you’d rather me read today like some people are pushing the game would need to slow down a lot to support that.

[chennisden]

Flashwagoning mathblade would also be fun

Keeping me around would be fun

Keeping everyone around would be fun. Think we’d probably lose though. Why are you saying such spammy shit?

That's like asking why the sky is blue, I was born to spam

[T-Bone]

Firebringer has requested replacement, All your Scummies...is seeking a replacement.

Vote Count

JohnnyFarrar - 4

(chennisden, Autumn Leaves, Joqiza, Firebringer)

Autumn Leaves - 3

(Auro, Lilith2013, JohnnyFarrar)

Chennisden - 1

(Flopz)

Mathblade - 1

(Menalque)

Flopz - 1

(Mathblade)

Not Voting - 0

()

Activity Check - All good!

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to remove politely

Deadline: (expired on 2021-01-31 21:00:00)

[Auro]

Fire

[joqiza]

I think the whole "lynch X because it gives more information on a town flip" argument is wrong-headed at this point. We have 136 pages and 3000+ posts, if anything there is a problem of information overload.

[chennisden]

This game seems really hard to play w/ all the replace outs at this point

[chennisden]

It's not helping that I'm having trouble making the mental connection of who replaced into what slot

Now I really have like, no reads

[joqiza]

chenn you seem pretty chill about the fact Flopz is hard tunneling you rn

[joqiza]

Imho your reason toward Menalque town seems very superficial. Town and scum can both be toxic. A town player triggered me and the game ended up getting toxic destroying what was a very very good scum game and got lost in elo. Toxicity isn’t alignment indicative what’s said in that toxicity is. I have put it inside of a spoiler because of toxicity reasons and said user is banned.

Spoiler: Trigger warning talks of suicide

Had a deep wolf game in Heroes where myself and Nancy had town snowballed on mechanics. I suggested vigging a scumbuddy for cred. Another player suggested I kill myself in response. I responded authentically and things got bad. Toxicity is not alignment indicative

That being said I like your elim pool and am down for any of those, but I kinda don’t want to hammer unless y’all are okay with me reading over the 24 hour period. If you’d rather me read today like some people are pushing the game would need to slow down a lot to support that.

I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I agree that toxicity in and of itself is not alignment indicative.

My home site is very toxic. People there know each other very well and arguments in games often veer into personal territory. Games are also not well-moderated there which exacerbates the problem. As a result, I've gotten pretty used to dealing with and parsing through AtE.

I think Menalque's hostility earlier in the game was town-indicative because he was not expressing it for the purposes of self-preservation, he was expressing it because he was not able to effect a hang on a slot he was pushing. Assuming it is not SvS, this frustration is more likely to come from town with a genuine read feeling ignored than it is to come from scum who knows their read is incorrect. You can read the section itself when you get a chance and give your own thoughts.

Or you can skip it, if you want. There are probably better reasons to TR him. That argument was just easily available and required less in the way of explanation.

[joqiza]

Before I read up from page *checks notes* 75.... I'll say my quick off the dome takes on everyone

Mena - effort and logic both good, unwilling to vote
Lili - seems more solvey than most anyone from my recollection. Unwilling to vote
Koba - in no way is this kobas scum game. Would rather not vote, but I do think the game gets easier with them gone so like I wouldn't hate if we limmed them anyway
Infin - got that LHF property a bit. Seems like everyone's down to lim. Would rather not vote
Auro - honestly my eyes kinda glaze over at Auros posts. Might vote pending case/conversation
Super - high effort, high anxiety. Reaction tests and bad blood with koba make it hard for me to parse what they're thinking even if they make outright statements. Would vote
Firebringer - annoying on purpose, not outside scum range from what I've heard but i'm trusting my gut here, would not vote
Flopz - did that meta dive on em, unwilling to vote
Chenny - manic nervous energy. Like they got called out early and have struggled to act natural for the rest of the game. Would vote

Johnny: Mena's logic is good
Mena: Infinity is scum
Johnny: Infinity seems like LHF, wouldn't vote them

"in no way is this koba's scum game"

This is said while Koba is tunneling Mena.

[joqiza]

I'm sort of giving up on being able to keep up with this game in its entirety and am going into quick takes mode.

VOTE: joqiza

Here to answer questions

Votes me directly after a replacement and in reaction to two other people voting him.

[joqiza]

I mean they're all better than me, but I can't really say I've found any of those slots scummy. I think voting infinity would give more info than me, though.

VOTE: Infinity

What consequences?

Comes back, votes the other leading wagon, doesn't elaborate on thoughts, expresses that they won't have time to catch up on the game.