Warehouse 13: The Mafia Game (Game Over)

[Spiffeh]

spiffeh why are u obsessed with the people scumreading you?

First of all, I think you know I'm a self-obsessed player so I don't know why this is all that surprising to you. I find it easiest to get reads on people that have significant experience with me by analyzing how they handle me throughout the game, as long as I don't activate tunnel-mode on them which is why I've decided to pressure people other than Dunn today.

But I'm obsessed with Dunnstral specifically calling me scum because it's supposedly a read he's held since the very beginning of the game but has yet to justify it when I've directly asked him to, beyond calling things I do "bad"? He doesn't seem to give a shit that no one agrees with him, and he hasn't ever voted me or tried to push me in a meaningful way. On top of this, he has been in each of my previous three games, all of which I've rolled scum, so I find it pretty unbelievable for him to have such a strong scum read on me here because my play here is DRASTICALLY different from my play in those games.

Take Bell, for instance, who was also present for all three of my recent scum games. He was able to identify almost immediately that I am Town here, and while I think he's had ping of paranoia or two recently, he overall recognizes how different this game has been from my scum games.

I can say the same for you and for Tammy. While I get irritated by your paranoia, you've both stated that overall I'm a decently strong townread.

Even bork's perspective on me is somewhat understandable given he's said in the past that I escaped his radar in Tenet, and I could see him not wanting to give me a free pass this game because of that.

Dunnstral's read on me has been hard scum ever since I started the wagon on him early Day 1, there is no progression or genuine thought behind it. Even when I haven't been breathing down his neck, none of his content has given me town pings other than his early, short-lived interaction with LLD today.

[SirCakez]

mm ok I can see the annoyance with Dunn
I have never called you a decently strong townread. maybe very slightly town at best mainly because of the hammer on scum-mastina.

[Spiffeh]

@Pooky thank you for providing more detail to your Cakez scum read, but seeing it all laid out like that makes me more confident that Cakez is Town, which is probably not what you were going for.

I similarly had an early feeling that mastina's posts were trash, but I had the same hangup as Cakez where mastina says some weird shit as either alignment and didn't think her bad content (constant prod-dodging, Prism flavor case) were enough to definitively call her scum. So seeing that same progression in Cakez's ISO is reassuring.

I see you're sketched out by his attempts to wagon Titus and Dunnstral over mastina, but in the screenshots you pulled, Cakez always had Titus and Dunn as more desirable lim targets, so his actions are super consistent with his reads lists. Cakez was the ultimate counter wagon to mastina at the end of the Day, so why aren't you calling anyone out for pushing Cakez over mastina?

And I agree with Prism that I think Cakez as scum would go for a more towncred-grabby approach when bussing mastina at the very end and don't agree that his "welp this is my only choice" vote was at all scum-motivated.

I think a lot of this analysis stems from your certainty that Cakez is scum, and highlighting things that fit that narrative, rather than going into his ISO openminded and getting a read genuinely. This is something I do a lot too which is why I've tried to move onto pushes other than Dunnstral.

Do you have any scum reads other than Cakez, and if so, who and why?

[Prism]

Prism, can you please show me "progression" on Pooky you liked? This looks like a random post calling Pooky "scumbear" and then never really stopping or explaining. I don't see Cakez really doing any "progression" at all. I'm using the word in quotes because maybe you're using it different than me.

First part is poking at Pooky to see how he reacts, doesn't like the reaction in 582, keeps voting and poking around pointing out bad posts, as Pooky starts doubling down more and more that there's no way Cakez scumreads him Cakez gets more incredulous. Pooky pushing Cakez over mastina kicks it into overdrive, present day. This doesn't make him town, but rather that I can understand where the worst parts of his (Cakez's) ISO imo comes from with this and the late mastina vote, which absolutely lined up with his reads.

Regarding wagons, GreyICE, why I should focus on Cakez/Titus/Dunn

I started with Cakez/Titus for a reason! The issue is that I read both and thought they were town, and I'm not really into the wagon number guessing game especially when there was a strong possibility one of the scum was AFK altogether. I'm very okay "sniping" around.

One thing you're asserting that I really think misses the point is "Do you really think GreyICE bussed mastina?". Scum GreyICE did not intend for mastina to get flipped. Playing aggressive when it's comparatively low stakes is pretty easy as mafia. Looking ahead, Bell hit the nail on the head in 2578.

Town GreyICE is of course just right on mastina, and it's fine and the responsibility is on me for being wrong. I hate his followups, chewing on whether to comment on them or just leave him alone for a bit longer.

1) DGB is still a content push most people. It’s not really a read to most people it’s a “meh” let’s get content or elim. We have tons of pages. Imho a DGB vote without someone who DGB is with is lazy and if DGB is scum dgb never endgames.

While you use the qualifier "most people", it is not true that this was a content push for both myself and sangres. What we saw was outright scummy and quiet's absence

inherently said something about the slot

based off what we know about him as a player. We want more content because there's an accuracy limit, but for sangres and myself this was a lot more than a lurker vote.

2) DGB for me is a townread, as I have expressed I am pretty good at picking up DGB scum when it is. It’s possible I am wrong but I think the consolidation is more around you than DGB.

At the time you originally gave this read iirc the only post of DGB's was "Math is town". I'm not really one to sheep other people's reads to begin with, let alone this one.

[Spiffeh]

I would love to hear LLD's and GI's thoughts on borkjerfkin and DGB.

[Prism]

Hey Dunnstral

Of everyone here, you know best why I'm not feeling having reads and pushing them. It's very insulting being punished for being wrong.

Yeah. I am in *passive player mode* right now and a lot of this is ON YOU.

So, get outta of here with your shitty, scummy vote. You can't read me for diddly squat.

Speaking of players who can't read me for diddly squat, and whose VCA is so tragically wrong that it's sometimes considered yeet-worthy. Titus. Titus, your VCA blows chunks once again and you scumread me 80% of the time, and suspect me the remaining 20%. So, get outta here too with that rubbish. At least I have learned, the hard way, that your VCA being pure trash doesn't mean you're scum.

Prism. Remember that game where you did me a favor a couple of times? Hint hint I am town.

MathBlade got it right.

This is a pretty global guilt trip that I don't think is rational to cast. You're being scumread mostly for your predecessor, and the posts you gave before this were extremely limited. Even if your reads are legitimate, I think you'll agree that there's only so much we can get from two one liners. I'm not Dunnstral, so I don't know the background about the passive player bit.

It's unfortunate that I was wrong on you in 2181. It's also unfortunate that the nature of the game means that I have to guess again. Truthfully, I don't know what to make of your first few posts this game. This one I definitely did not like, because any scumreads on

DGB

have essentially been dartthrow reactions to one liners, it's all about your predecessor. That's frustrating in its own way, but it's unclear why the result is to tear into 3 of us for our treatment of you.

[Spiffeh]

DGB - Dunno, just expecting something other than the entrance I got. Might imply Titus is town if flipped scum but I consider the error bars extremely wide on that. Was hoping to be able to put this higher up when the slot turned over but here we are.

How were you reading quiet while he was in the game? I ISO'd you to check but you didn't really mention him much, so does DGB being so low on your reads list have anything to do with him, or is it primarily its performance so far that puts it there?

[SirCakez]

Spiffeh how do you reconcile scum!dunn with the fact he was a counter to Mastina early on?

[Prism]

Spiffeh, Cakez, you were both interested in bork and wanted more from him.

Do you feel that he failed to deliver with his latest posts? If so, was there anything wrong with them?

[Spiffeh]

In DEFCON 4.0 the main, competing wagons at the end of Day 1 were Untrod Tripod and Something_Smart. Both of them were scum. When S_S was limmed, UT was practically cleared and won in MYLO because of it (among other things).

It can happen.

I'm not town reading you, Mathblade, or Titus for being competing wagons to flipped scum, those are reasons entirely separate from that.

I mentioned Pooky not considering other counter wagons to mastina because that is a huge tenant of his argument against you, it doesn't mean it's something I put much stock into.

PEdit: @Prism I'm writing up a response to bork rn, I am interested in your reevaluation of him, though!

[Prism]

I'm really trying to stop putting B_M on the backburner and am a lot more interested in reviewing other slots atm; I liked his recent posting even though reviewing 2181 it's not the big tonal shift I remembered. I gave some recent thoughts on him to Tammy here and in general this game he hasn't had the same clear confusion/timidity of positioning in 2181. The strongest he came out that game were purely related to defending/going aggressive on partners, here he's a lot more scattershot and fearless even when ffery/Nacho were around. His strength as scum is 100% in setting up his partners well, tonally he can be strong/give believable one liners but holistically I think he really struggles to identify where he himself should be at a given point. That doesn't turn around so quickly, and this wasn't really the feedback/takeaway he got from 2181.

I should probably explicitly review a towngame at some point since my only bork sample is 1 scum game.

[Bell]

Bork wrote a listicle and wrote 4 posts in a row with zero real time interaction.
a
I too can write a paragraph about each player as scum. He used that "townie post/effort" as a spring board for a political push.

Also, that DGB post was rude and it makes perfect sense for Titus to push a non-entity. As either scum or town really. Mathblade's stance makes less sense from his position on lurkers from day 1.

I'm only waffling a little on Spiffeh because Dunnstral in my opinion is a better scum hunter than I am. I don't really want to engage with whether Dunnstral is pushing Spiffeh legitimately or not because it's difficult to tell.
RN Spiffeh is a legitimate no from me though.

[Spiffeh]

Bell, it seems like you're putting a lot of stock into Dunn's read of me, so why aren't you chomping at the bit for him to explain it further? Is it not concerning to you that he's held a strong scum read on me since the beginning of the game but has yet to justify it properly?

Or if you think he has justified it, can you point me to where he does so?

[GreyICE]

In DEFCON 4.0 the main, competing wagons at the end of Day 1 were Untrod Tripod and Something_Smart. Both of them were scum. When S_S was limmed, UT was practically cleared and won in MYLO because of it (among other things).

It can happen.

It can happen. Fine, vig the fucker. It'd be a better vig than Sangres or Kitty Trauma Team. IDC.

Lets do something else today rather than "back to the day 1 wagon even though the other one flipped scum."

[MathBlade]

In DEFCON 4.0 the main, competing wagons at the end of Day 1 were Untrod Tripod and Something_Smart. Both of them were scum. When S_S was limmed, UT was practically cleared and won in MYLO because of it (among other things).

It can happen.

It can happen. Fine, vig the fucker. It'd be a better vig than Sangres or Kitty Trauma Team. IDC.

Lets do something else today rather than "back to the day 1 wagon even though the other one flipped scum."

Why are people so intent not to look where there is most likely scum? (Not picking on GreyICE here this is a common sentiment here)

If you think SirCakez is scum then you’ve found scum on the wagon.
If you think SirCakez is town then there is likely scum on the wagon.

A lot of people are proposing that the SirCakez wagon was literally all town and on town and bussing Mastina and this just blows my mind.

[Spiffeh]

Spiffeh - Wanted to save you for last because you've done some stuff I like and some stuff I don't. I feel like people who approach with the level of breadth you do are generally town, and yeah you're trying to kick stones around, but your engagement against still seems like someone who decided at the start of day he wanted to push on my slot because of the opening that ffery gave about it and the fact that I'm not hyper engaged at the moment.

I said later in Day 1 that my townread on you was souring in 1834. In this same post I ask ffery about why she was worried about you because after being in Tenet with your hydra I value her opinion on you and if she's seeing the same thing I'm seeing then maybe we're onto something. Later on I even ask you to elaborate on the votes on the mastina wagon because at the time it pinged me and it looks even worse with a mastina scum flip as I've already explained.

So I'm not sure if I buy that you really think I'm latching onto ffery's paranoia maliciously? I will admit that her death is something that spurred more focused attention on you, because we felt similarly about you by the end of the Day yesterday. This, along with the fact that I'm townreading every player that discussion was centering around today (Pooky, Cakez, Mathblade, Titus), made me want to shine more of a spotlight on you. So given the progression I've laid out, can you explain why my focus on you is more likely to be scum-motivated than Town who thinks everyone should pay more attention to you?

Can we drop the 'surface level' buzzword when describing what you actually don't like about my play here? That makes it utterly impossible to read into your motivations for calling me out here and honestly makes me not want to engage at all. Do you disagree with my points? Do you think I am overly simplifying things? Your suspicion is wrong, and pre-2528 based on imo a really simplistic "sangres kinda sorted suspected bork and sangres is now dead" (despite the fact that I was fucking heavily crumbing that I was going to visit them w/ something last night which by the way I fucking did and it sure was fuck wasn't with a kill)

Surface level is probably not the right way to word it and I'm sorry that that bothered you, it's not meant as an insult. I'll try to explain it a little better: Your content here feels different from Tenet. I felt you were more actively engaged in Tenet, you'd interact with people more in real time and come to visible and viable conclusions that made sense to me. But there's something about your posts and effort here that read to me like you're going through the motions. Your lack of real explanation or engagement about being sketched out with the sudden votes on mastina is an example of this. You did nothing further to confirm or deny your suspicions, where I expect town!bork to have done so. And as I pointed out early Day 1 I felt the places where you did interact with people, like ffery, felt lackluster and done because they were expected of you.

Basically, this game isn't really living up to what I'd expect from you after Tenet. And seeing as you yourself admitted that your motivation to play as scum is a far cry from your motivation to play as Town, pointing out places where that sentiment is ringing true is worthwhile.

[Spiffeh]

In DEFCON 4.0 the main, competing wagons at the end of Day 1 were Untrod Tripod and Something_Smart. Both of them were scum. When S_S was limmed, UT was practically cleared and won in MYLO because of it (among other things).

It can happen.

It can happen. Fine, vig the fucker. It'd be a better vig than Sangres or Kitty Trauma Team. IDC.

Lets do something else today rather than "back to the day 1 wagon even though the other one flipped scum."

To be clear, that was in response to Cakez' 2607.

GI what are your thoughts on bork and DGB atm?

[GreyICE]

Like, imagine what we learn if Cakez is scum. We learn scum were guaranteed bussing. Wait, pretty much everyone was voting for Mastina or Cakez, that means nothing.
Imagine what we learn if Cakez is town. We learn... probably not that much.
If Cakez gets vigged... we flip Cakez, and can have an actual day phase.
If Cakez doesn't get vigged, we can sort him a different day phase.

Again, I have yet to see what's so scummy about Cakez that isn't just "how he plays". I have never read his past games, but I will bet you $50 here and now that he gets lynched days 1-3 in most of them. Fuck, I will paypal you the money if that's not the case. Towns have a profile on players they like to lynch early, and Cakez fits it.

Is a bit of that on him? Yeah, prolly. But here he is, asking you questions. So Spiffeh, is there anything else we could be doing with our time?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

i have never been good at finding crumbs
if someone is crumbing mason so obviously that people can see it then just come out and say it because scum will definitely have caught it anyways and then I won't waste any more time pushing someone we know is town. i don't have enough time these days to deal with this kind of crap.

^^^

I am very against this.

I have not claimed mason. I have not said I am not a mason.

I am explicitly telling you however that the crumb Mathblade cited is just something I say, regardless or role, regardless of alignment.

So please, I want you to stop being lazy and put together that case against me.

Because it's useful for me to sort YOU.

I need to know whether your suspicion and wild flailing at me from Day 1 and today is actually genuine suspicion or some bullshit scum posturing.

The original reason I even susp you in the first place was because you didn't seem to have a lot of substance behind your suspicion against me.

I want to know what the thought process behind it was. Why the hell was I at the top of your yeet pile???

I have been poking at you and slapping you around all day - don't you have at least some pride in your play to actually sit down and write that fucking giant case.

This is what you promised:

"pooky after we are done with titus/mastina/whoever today
tomorrow I am going to absolutely bury you in an unending onslaught of destruction
you will die tomorrow and there's nothing you can do about it"

I want to see you do the case that will make this come true ^^^

I want to see your THOUGHT PROCESS and what you saw in me that made you 100% sure I am scum because then I can at least know you are just a wrong townie rather than scum who is posturing to push a mis-elim.

Because I need to see you actually say something that makes me think you actually believe I am scum.

Right now everything you are posting is just empty scum posturing with no substance.


@Spiffeh

Cakez pushing the Dunn wagon and picking Titus over Mastina on the push before that are not "key parts" of my case.

It's just a retort to Cakez attack on me - which says I pushed his counter wagon to Mastina hence I am scum. Which is silly since he pushed two counterwagons to Mastina and by his own choice while I was leashed to LLD.


The main reasons I suspect him:

1) Wanting me to die, hard claiming he has these suspicions on me and this mega case that will prove my guilt beyond a doubt and kill me.

Like ok sure. Then fucking post it?!?! Like I don't get how town!him has these feelings. like If I had that feeling about someone, I would be so upset I would be unable to sleep before posting my case. Ok maybe he's not as OCD as me but like it's been literally weeks. What the hell is taking him so long !?

The explanation I have is that he never actually had genuine good reasons to scumread me in the first place, so that's why he never laid out a case - its all just bullshit scum posturing.

Main Counterpoint here: Cakez is just a terrible player who likes bullshitting when he's town and can't back it up with the goods.

If this is true then he should just fucking fess up and stop wasting my time with this inane bullshit.

2) Cakez reaction to EOD does not feel like someone who is happy he is avoiding death or hard pushing a counterwagon to his own town-lynch. It feels like a scumbag who is not happy he can't get a mis-elim off.

when Bell put Cake at E-1, Cake was at 8 votes and the closest Counterwagon was at 4 votes(Mastina). There were not many hours to the deadline and it looked fairly certain he would die at that point in the game.

If I am sitting in Cakez spot there, holding a town day investigative PR - I would've pushed very hard for Mastina, I would've talked a lot about how my role is very important to the town. I would've listed out every reason for why Mastina is suspicious that I had been commenting on all day etc.

Sure you could say that's flailing but I think it's the bare minimum of effort a townie should make if they are sitting at E-1 on D1.

Instead its just this weak ass vote like he's not enthusiastic about Mastina being elimmed over him in any wya. And that makes sense if he is scum with her and doesn't really care which player among them gets elimmed.

Counterpoint: Cakez doesnt play like you, Cakez is a gentle soul who doesnt do that.

Counter Counter Point: I'm just surprised he doesnt put even 1% of the passion he put into spam-pushing me with no reasons that he does into saving his own ass when the other wagon is someone on his "would yeet" list. If anything the incentive and motivation should be higher for him when he's E-1 close to death than when he's just pushing me for lulz with nothing on the line.

3) I do not believe Cakez has played his role with a townie mindset. Maybe this is too harsh but there's so many things I would be doing to find the scum who is taking the artifact at night that I just don't see Cakez doing. I don't think he ever looked at his role as something that is useful for finding scum - and that makes sense if he is scum in the first place.

4) There was something in the Cakez ISO that I did not notice at the time because I dismissed it as a joke. I haven't addressed it yet but I'm going to now.



I think I might have hit this right on the head - my comment is an offhanded joke, and Cakez reaction reads much more sinister if he was actually in the PT with Mastina joking about how they were going to make LLD vote herself by putting LLD at the top of Mastina's readslist.


Conclusion: I understand that I could be wrong here about Cakez. He could just be a terrible player who likes to throw out random bullshit at me and never back it up and produce the goods to justify his thought process. That's true - but I have laid down so much bait for him at this point that if he had even a shred of respect for his own town game he should've taken the time to actually pretend like he's trying and bust out this mega case. I have seen Cake-town produce very good mega cases - for example on Agar in Lost Temple. I know he is capable of playing better than the shitposty little punk he's playing right now.


@Prism I don't think DGB guilt-trips you here as scum but I could be wrong.

[GreyICE]

In DEFCON 4.0 the main, competing wagons at the end of Day 1 were Untrod Tripod and Something_Smart. Both of them were scum. When S_S was limmed, UT was practically cleared and won in MYLO because of it (among other things).

It can happen.

It can happen. Fine, vig the fucker. It'd be a better vig than Sangres or Kitty Trauma Team. IDC.

Lets do something else today rather than "back to the day 1 wagon even though the other one flipped scum."

To be clear, that was in response to Cakez' 2607.

GI what are your thoughts on bork and DGB atm?

DGB is Quiet? Didn't love that slot. Mastina liked to pick on people, Mastina had Quiet solidly as "someone she didn't pick on." Look at these posts:

I think Spiffeh town BM scum Prism null LLD scum lean Cakez is prob town but scum in a very minor circumstance so not considering it. If I am right then Titus is town by proxy.

Scummy reads

Scratch the scunread, Dunn's town.

quiet is aggressively ambivalent (which is to say, one post rapidly swaying from definitely-scum and definitely-town, hard to lock down as one of those and not the other).

Just popping in to try and catch up (shockingly busy weekend); but doesn't scum know, or at least have some insight? Don't scum get to pick between two, choose one, the second one goes up for vote? Don't think that particularly changes my view on Prism, which I will need to update from the last 6 pages, but scum should know or at least have some insight on all artifacts that get put in front of us, no?

It's not strong but by gut the ambivalence has been broken in favor of scum.

I'd kill a bitch for these two posts.
If you think I have some magic fucking 8 ball of "reading DGB" then... I don't. Sorry. It's not fair to DGB, but then again, DGB got Quiet's role PM. We're not playing by some code of chivalry here.

Bork is in the great pile of w/e with Dunnstral, B_M and Bell. Probably town.

[Prism]

So the main reason I've wanted to revisit BM has been because of his brief swapoff from mastina, and he was in that nice wagon grey area where scum have to choose to get on/off since mastina was in real danger.

Also like BM's recent posts.

even Battle Mage's more recent posts make me feel better about him.

Why?

Battle Mage's recent posts have been "nice". He's been acting nice to players, working with them, acting as a mediator, being a team player, calling fights TvT, and generally being moderate: not committing to anything hard, saying preferences and stances but without passion and conviction behind them.

Does any of this jive with your experience of BM as town?

Because it flies in the face of the abrasive BM that I know, while being a perfect fit for the Battle Mage I've seen as scum pull this exact strategy to get some cheap towncred.

thanks for being so kind to me. funny enough i dont get a lot of personal joy out of being shitted on every fking game - me staying out of the aggro isn't AI, it's because it's stressful and doesn't make games enjoyable.

personal feeling aside - you know this is a gross take.

VOTE: mastina

that's my final move.

This is an extremely good post. Someone is outplaying me for sure, and it might be Battle_Mage, but reading this slot I don't see any clear reason to scumread it beyond the timing of the vote. Everything else feels town to me, progressions on Dunn, Cakez, etc. pretty clear. I guess other candidate would be thirsting for the artifact while being a much more null slot and joining the Pooky/Dunn wagons but both were fine imo. I guess his ambivalence on Grey too? All of these are question marks because they're reaches imo. I did some limited meta since I found his style a lot less logical in Xenoblade and a lot more pointed in Primroses, 2021 games seem to be a lot crisper as town in the same way as this one.

The thing about the timing of the vote that bothered me was that it was vote 5 on mastina. But the alternative, who B_M was on, was Dunn at 6. Really dumb vote swap as scum imo.

I do think it's worth it for Battle_Mage to go over his current thoughts on Math, that's really the only fuzzy part of his progression to me.

[MathBlade]

Like, imagine what we learn if Cakez is scum. We learn scum were guaranteed bussing. Wait, pretty much everyone was voting for Mastina or Cakez, that means nothing.
Imagine what we learn if Cakez is town. We learn... probably not that much.
If Cakez gets vigged... we flip Cakez, and can have an actual day phase.
If Cakez doesn't get vigged, we can sort him a different day phase.

Again, I have yet to see what's so scummy about Cakez that isn't just "how he plays". I have never read his past games, but I will bet you $50 here and now that he gets lynched days 1-3 in most of them. Fuck, I will paypal you the money if that's not the case. Towns have a profile on players they like to lynch early, and Cakez fits it.

Is a bit of that on him? Yeah, prolly. But here he is, asking you questions. So Spiffeh, is there anything else we could be doing with our time?

1) Yes that means a lot because of how people are doing reads now.
2) This is still a day phase
3) What does this even mean?

4) I literally just got done with a Cakez game as scum and this was his freakin MO.
5) Bets on MS are not allowed. So ignoring that.

Your entire argument is let’s eliminate probable town because we would learn more rather than probable scum. That’s called IIOA.

Imho you all are hunting in a scum PoE that has maybe one player which is a recipe for TvT fights that poison the game. I haven’t heard a single good reason why we’re not looking in the Cakez wagon despite a majority of players scumreading one of if not both of Titus / Cakez.

[MathBlade]

Hey Titus! You're analytical, right?

Real quick, how are you using the term "chainsaw defense" here?

One chance, answer right.

Bonus points if you can identify how it's commonly used on mafiascum and compare!

See, I'll give Prism a pass for this because expectations aren't that high from that slot. You get no passes, Titus.

You can’t seriously be arguing looking outside of Titus after these posts.

Seriously Grey?

[Titus]

A chainsaw is when someone attacks the attacker of someone else.

For example, Adam attacks Brian. Charlie then attacks Adam usually for his attack on Brian. That's a chainsaw.

Sometimes a chainsaw is from scum defending a partner but not always. It can and commonly is town defending town.

Catching up now.

[Bell]

Bell, it seems like you're putting a lot of stock into Dunn's read of me, so why aren't you chomping at the bit for him to explain it further? Is it not concerning to you that he's held a strong scum read on me since the beginning of the game but has yet to justify it properly?

Or if you think he has justified it, can you point me to where he does so?

I'm in meeting, but we have a 20 minute break.
I'm not chomping at the bit for him to explain it further, because I don't agree with him and I doubt his explanation would change my mind much if at all. If you started getting wagoned I would start giving people a very hard time about their reasons. But you're not going to get wagoned and if they do, you'll be defended.

It is not concerning that he has yet to justify it properly to me because people just don't justify themselves all the time. I pretty much never spoke about my reasons for voting Mastina that wasn't farcical in thread. My actual reasons are in my notes and they will stay there unless somebody asks.

I think he has applied steady pressure and consistent pushing, but I don't want to get into what is and isn't a real push. To me I consider his push somewhere in between acceptability but it's rare for Dunnstrall to spam the thread up demanding an elimination. Even on roughly vanity wagon type votes.