Mini 2206 - Deja Vu: Perpetual MELO IV - END!

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: nacho hello everyone!

[Infinity 324]

If kismet is flavor (which I think is reasonable) I have an early TR there; TRing flavor is always risky but I've SRed scum!him early on a couple times

[Infinity 324]

i don't think that's fl

Ok well I have an early TR there regardless

[Infinity 324]

I like skitt as well I think

[Infinity 324]

I like skitt as well I think

I can see this and I like the tone in 48 overall, even if I've been grilling her before now.
Would be curious to as to any insight on that read, as I think it's one of high priority

Skitt already wasn't feeling scumplay lately, and she recently lost another scumgame pretty handily, so it's likely her vibe would be off here as scum. Also, I see where she's coming from on the nacho push and I often don't see where scum!skitt is coming from. That said, I haven't seen scum!skitt at 100%, but I think I'll have to lose to her at least once before I can get a sense for what peak-scum-skitt looks like.

[Infinity 324]

We don't have to kill him to win. If he's scum we only have one day to get a sweet point out of him.

I don't get this, why can't we elim NM on d2?

[Infinity 324]

Because his team will sacrifice him the first opportunity they get. I know I would if scum!

Hmm I'm not sure I agree with this. If we can't read NM (notsci thinks he kinda can but less assume that for a sec) then they're always rand scum, and if our reads are any good then our best scumread should be >rand scum. The reason we can policy lim NM in a normal setup is that we can spend elims to narrow down the PoE, where we don't have that luxury here. Also, it's gonna be hard to get the votes to lim them unless they're town. So I'll only vote NM if the wagon on them is very towny.

[Infinity 324]

If I was scum and had to choose a scum player to eliminate n0 it probably wouldn't be NM because it's such a risk to town to elim them, but scum are gonna have that information anyway

[Infinity 324]

Btw, I've a question in my mind for some days, but keep forgetting about it. I remember now so will ask here....
What does

ship someone

(or the spelling is sheep??) mean? I googled it but couldn't understand properly.

To sheep someone is to trust their read on someone.

[Infinity 324]

hard tunnels get potentially interesting in this kind of setup because scum are inclined to do them, win that day, and just peace out of the game the next day after the flip makes them look horrible

i think we should be insisting that people take a fairly breadth-first approach to the game.

Maybe, site meta at this point seems to be for scum to not tunnel and for town to not SR tunneling, but this is a good point regardless.

[Infinity 324]

Infinity what do you think of my push?

I disagreed with it and thought it was slightly scummy, but I'm a sucker for these types of questions

[Infinity 324]

I think salsa is towny too, someone scumpost

PEdit: spicy take

[Infinity 324]

Oh, that's totally different from what Nachomamma8 said!

Sorry, it's not what nacho said but if you wanted to know what "sheep" means there you go.

[Infinity 324]

@salsa Yeah, it usually takes a couple games before I get a good handle on someone's play.

@eevelutions Who's leafeon and who's glaceon

[Infinity 324]

Hi!

VOTE: leafeon

You don't feel like the town!mist I know so far

[Infinity 324]

Ok, I'll keep the vote for now

[Infinity 324]

Lilith has my favorite response to my push, notscience my least favorite. The scum motivation that Lilith presented makes more sense than what skitter did and it feels more like she's trying to figure me out whereas skitter it's more "what Nacho is doing is bad" versus "what Nacho is doing is likely to be coming from scum". With regards to notscience I don't understand why giving Not mafia space is important to start reading him and I don't like that he didn't try to read me or my push in any way.

Vote: notscience

Do you not think skitter was trying to figure you out? She was, at least, questioning you and hadn't made up her mind yet.

This post (specifically, the notsci part) feels less nuanced than it should be for some unknown definition of should

[Infinity 324]

Why kismet?

[Infinity 324]

I actually think notsci has a halfway decent scumgame. At leasy the last one i played with him i was townreading him for a fair amt of it

I was townreading him too and so was most of the game. Tbf he wasn't under a microscope but still.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: nacho I'm feeling this esp since skitt agrees

[Infinity 324]

That's relatable

[Infinity 324]

Kismet idk who you are but you seem cool

[Infinity 324]

you're one of the few people in this list i've not played w/ Infinity

Ah ok.

I would've guessed ffery if she wasn't modding lol

[Infinity 324]

policy elims are bad. policy elims on NM are bad. policy elims on NM in this setup are bad. we should just kill the person we think is most likely to be scum.

- lilith

Have u literally forgotten JK9++ already? The game we nearly lost (should’ve lost) bc of not policy limming NM despite me saying repeatedly that we should do for like 3 days?

-Mena

Ok but this is not a normal setup so I'm gonna need more than this

[Infinity 324]

why does it matter

He’s scum or he isn’t, purely from rand it’s basically 50/50’and he’s not gonna play or be readable throughout the game?

-Mena

So we can just...ignore him. And lim the (other) scum. Idgi

@lilith you weren't in the most recent jk9++

[Infinity 324]

Also we can read NM based on who's pushing and defending them. Were more likely to get earlier scumflips in this setup that most

So far it's looking pretty good for NM

PEdit: sorry mena being sleep deprived sucks :(

Also the setup is different because we don't have to ever deal with NM and because each elim is worth more than in a different setup.

[Infinity 324]

I consider this similar to like an at-bat in baseball; if you get ahead in the count, either as a batter or pitcher, you have the unique opportunity to make a conservative play w/ some guaranteed value in it akin to not swinging at a 3-0 pitch and seeing if the pitcher will screw up themselves.

I like this analogy

I don't particularly feel like arguing this back and forth so I'm gonna stick with only voting NM if a bunch of my townreads are on the wagon

PoE is another great way to sort NM and was a good reason to lim them in jk9++ too imo

[Infinity 324]

Mena was hydra'ing with ydra the thing she messaged you about postgame of divide and conquer

[Infinity 324]

Also assuming we’re talking about the game I was scum in too

I knew he was scum but I was scumreading him like in my town lens

So meh I don’t think he’s that had to read

How many games of theirs have you played in/seen? I remember skimming a bunch of their town/scumgames at one point trying to find a pattern and I couldn't really find any

My playstyle relies on people posting a lot of words for me to read them ig

[Infinity 324]

I'm not confident notsci is town, should I be?

[Infinity 324]

well, i could think of ONE change,

CHECK YOUR DAMN MESSAGES

This is what I was asking mena about

[Infinity 324]

And would like u to elaborate on why u are tomorrow @skitt

-Mena

Kismet's posts have been very good so far and I'd be sad if they were scum. There's only so much I can TR someone I haven't seen play before, but kismet is pretty close to that ceiling

[Infinity 324]

Meh I dont really think anyone thinks likes this as scum

Idk how scum think, but I don't see scum players go all out on pushing townies very much atm. Obviously it depends on the player

[Infinity 324]

The person I see mafia as most likely to sacrifice is Not Mafia.

Given the opinions expressed on NM here so far, I don't agree

[Infinity 324]

also i am glad to see that my partner did not play after telling me he would

~leaf

Isn't beeboy the one who just doesn't post as scum?

[Infinity 324]

This still isn't the town!mist I know, beeboy still hasn't posted, eeveelutions are scum

[Infinity 324]

Feel better salsa

[Infinity 324]

This is a pretty ballsy post if this hydra is scum. My feeling is that Misty is less likely to draw attention to beeboy's absence if they are scum together.

Ehh maybe if she doesn't think anyone in the game knows beeboy? Idk this is pretty weak. Tbf beeboy has posted since then but still no real reads so

[Infinity 324]

Now, if the scumteam is given the chance to safehouse NachoDaughter, then town has to kill NachoDaddy to get their three points.

Ok but as a town we can decide to elim nachodaddy anyway and it's at least based on something, and nachodaddy might even be >rand scum where as a policy on NM would not be. I don't really care about "strongest scum player", I care about being able to tell the difference between someone's townplay and scumplay

[Infinity 324]

I think in a game where a bunch of people know each other the game becomes less about who is charismatic/town-looking enough to avoid the elim and more about who can give town the most doubts as to whether they are scum. By virtue of being unreadable NM is pretty good at the latter

[Infinity 324]

Thanks!

And yeah I believe nacho thinks limming NM is protown, I think that much is clear. I'm much less sure he believes this cakez read though.

[Infinity 324]

I feel not super motivated for this game and I'm not sure my reads are right and idk what to do about it

[Infinity 324]

Hi!

[Infinity 324]

@nacho I'm having a hard time seeing which parts of your cakez read don't boil down to "I don't get cakez", or how you not getting cakez means he's scum in this context

[Infinity 324]

Hi ydrasse!

[Infinity 324]

Seeing what you think of nacho is probably the most important thing atm

[Infinity 324]

I doubt that, I think multiple of us here have all played together before?

You doubt that no one here knows beeboy, or that mistyx would think that no one here knows beeboy

[Infinity 324]

idgi how are those two things not the same? like the people who are most towny looking are surely also the ones you have the most doubts about being scum?

NM is a perfect example of why it's not, they will never look towny but you will always have doubts about whether they are scum

Nacho looks relatively towny from an Objective Standpoint^TM but I don't have that many doubts about him being scum

[Infinity 324]

are you saying you SR nacho or nah?

Yeah I do. Basically if someone has a strong scumgame they can still be >rand scum on play whereas NM can't unless you're notsci I guess. This may just be something we fundamentally disagree on though

PEdit: maybe? I think a lot of the people defending NM are towny

[Infinity 324]

My point is just is that you kept pointing out things that were weird and not scummy. And you called them weird not scummy. Three weird posts doesn't normally equal a scumread so when did your read change from "what Nacho is doing is weird" to "what Nacho is doing is scummy"?

Do you think this is scum-indicative (for cakez)?

[Infinity 324]

how are they more likely than rand to be scum than the do nothing slot?

I don't understand this question. The assumption is that NM is always gonna be =rand scum (I disagree, but w/e)

If you have a scumread on a player, and if you have any faith in your reads at all, that player is >rand scum. Maybe they're playing towny in an objective sense but that doesn't matter because you know they would as either alignment.

VFT and kismet are towny, so is salsa somewhat. I forget who else was defending NM

[Infinity 324]

Nacho looks relatively towny from an Objective StandpointTM but I don't have that many doubts about him being scum

I'll rephrase this, I have doubts about being scum but he's still >rand scum which is scummier than NM

[Infinity 324]

You shouldn't be 100% confident someone is flipping scum before you flip them or you have ego issues. It is a more valuable skill to fight off a lynch on you then it is to lurk so much that people can't confidently write a case on you.

Screw 100% confident, if someone is 1% more likely than rand to be scum I'm limming them over someone who's =rand scum

It may be a more valuable skill in the abstract but in a game where people know each other and will adjust their expectations of others' scumgames accordingly, not really

[Infinity 324]

I think people also value their scumreads more highly than they should - case in point, you scumreading me here.

I agree, though in the past few months my day 1 scumreads have been >>rand scum

But yeah 1% more likely than rand is a better elim than =rand

[Infinity 324]

Mini 2206 - Deja Vu: Perpetual MELO IV

Moderator: fferyllt
Backup Moderator: Syryana
Game Design by Max

Deja Vu...the sense, in a new circumstance, that you've been someplace, seen something, experienced something before. The moment, for unfathomable reasons, reminds you of another moment in your past. Maybe it's an unnoticed knicknack on a shelf. Maybe it's the hands on a clock. Maybe it's a scent, a taste, a breeze. In this game, you're trapped in the mis-eliminate and lose moment of a mafia game. And you will get to replay that moment, again and again, until you've miseliminated 3 times. Or you have eliminated mafia 3 times. Then you will be released as a winner of this Groundhog Day of an experiment...or not.

Player List

1. Nachomamma8
   
2. SirCakez
   
3. Leafeon and Glaceon (beeboy, Mistyx hydra)
   
4. Not_Mafia
   
5. Salsabil Faria
   
6. Momrangal
   Brave Heart Lion
   
   
7. Kismet
   
8. Disaster Cartel (Menalque, Ydrasse hydra)
   
9. Infinity 324
   
10. Venus Fly Trap (skitter30, lilith2013 hydra)
    
11. notscience
    
12. The Bulge

Spoiler: Alive

Nachomamma8
SirCakez
Leafeon and Glaceon
Not_Mafia
Salsabil Faria
Momrangal
Kismet
Disaster Cartel
Infinity 324
Venus Fly Trap
notscience
The Bulge

Spoiler: Dead

No one...yet

Spoiler: Modkilled

Let's not go there

Spoiler: Votecounter Settings

living players

Nachomamma8
SirCakez
Leafeon and Glaceon (replaces L&G)
Not_Mafia
Salsabil Faria
Momrangal
Kismet
Disaster Cartel
Infinity 324
Venus Fly Trap
notscience
The Bulge

links

Day 1: Post 3

Ok, it did feel like you were already SRing him

[Infinity 324]

But with each TR you get, according to your own logic the %chance of NM scum goes super high

I think PoE is a great reason to elim NM later on, but that's exactly why we wait until later on, because we can actually use that to determine whether NM is town or scum rather than just limming them d1 because they're NM

I'll find quotes for why I townread them, but I doubt scum!skitt would have this much happiness/drive to play mafia here. And kismet is constantly bringing up good points and showing that they're thinking from a town perspective. Which, yeah, good scum can do that, but occam's razor says kismet is towny

Salsa there was one post I thought was good

[Infinity 324]

This is a bad reason to townread a good scum player. Moods, and thus engagement, can change from day to day much less game to game.

It's a gut read anyway, so if you (or mena) want a better reason I thought the way lilith got frustrated with cakez for missing her post was towny for her.

I still doubt skitt's mood would do a 180 from divide an conquer just a few days ago, she was busy when that game started but still. You can't fake being actively excited to play mafia, and skitt is at least less likely to be excited as scum here than town

[Infinity 324]

It's certainly not bell. It's not unwnd either because I've played with them

[Infinity 324]

You're saying I'm not trying to figure his alignment out. Great. I am trying to figure his alignment out - how am I supposed to show that to you? Are the reasons for him being scum unreasonable? Does my push on him fail to outline a scum agenda?

This feels like something scum would say to look like frustrated town, the tone is just...not quite there.

[Infinity 324]

You're saying I'm not trying to figure his alignment out. Great. I am trying to figure his alignment out - how am I supposed to show that to you? Are the reasons for him being scum unreasonable? Does my push on him fail to outline a scum agenda?

This feels like something scum would say to look like frustrated town, the tone is just...not quite there.

This was expressed pretty equivocally so let me try again:

Nacho is scummmmmm

[Infinity 324]

Mena if you touch a hair on Borks head I will run you into the ground tia

This feels towny for notsci and bork

[Infinity 324]

Wrt Infinity am not surprised because he just seems to be stuck in tunnel mode.

she*

[Infinity 324]

the reads weren't forced as in i forced myself to make reads where i didnt have any it was more that i had to force myself to read thread and get them out

Weird question, is there a difference for you emotionally? Can you explain it at all? For me these two things feel pretty similar

[Infinity 324]

I’m p sure that regardless of alignment they’d prob have talked about their experience with the rest of the list

Oh I missed this, I'm not so sure I agree but I still SR the slot so yeah

[Infinity 324]

the former is "i read thread, i don't have any reads from it, but im going to post stuff anyway" and the latter is "i didn't read thread but i still feel like i need to post anyway or else im just a useless slanker"

Do you do more of one and less of the other depending on your alignment?

[Infinity 324]

i don't really do the former as town, only ever as scum if i'm struggling with tmi

I remember you doing it in pokemon battles though? You were like "ok I caught up but I don't have thoughts bye"

It stuck out to me for some reason (I think I thought it was towny) and it feels like the opposite of what you're doing here somehow.

[Infinity 324]

i have also kind of disliked infinity's push on us - there was this one part where she repeated some of the stuff i mentioned being the reasoning for me being low motivation that just felt odd

Can you quote this?

[Infinity 324]

well i said i don't do it as town because i just say i didn't have reads

Ok makes sense

PEdit: hmm interesting

[Infinity 324]

Eeveelutions could be town

[Infinity 324]

Did anyone besides nacho think I was tunneling him?

[Infinity 324]

510 was actually the one that made me rethink

[Infinity 324]

(me expanding on my last post)

This more comes down to my general mafia theory that people who are annoyed are > rand town while people who get mad are > rand scum. This is generally not always true so I never really explain this to people since there is 101 examples of mad town but honestly I find annoyed town is something that is relatively hard to find, and even then it sits on the line of someone who is mad. Which could come down to how I think people tend to react while trying to brainstorm vs trying to fool people. Idk, nor do I care about other peoples opinions on this because wording how I feel about the nuance of peoples emotions is incredibly hard.

~Glaceon

This is interesting, it might speak to a difference between being annoyed but feeling justified in that and being annoyed (mad) but knowing you're wrong and you have to keep arguing because you're scum. I wonder if that's why I try to stick to things I believe even as scum, channeling that "mad" energy is hard for me

[Infinity 324]

@beeboy I know you just said you don't like readslists but scum are gonna figure out who I SR anyway, and I think this is important

{bulge, DC, NM, mom, nacho, cakez}

@bork, skitt Who do you think is most likely scum outside this pool?

[Infinity 324]

Why do u SR me infinity?

-Mena

Ik you're gonna hate this but...PoE

I did think the way you were asking everyone about their reads on you was pretty towny, but I'm probably gonna read your slot based on ydrasse anyway

Tbf maybe salsa should be in that pool too? I went back and checked and I'm not sure why I'm TRing her

[Infinity 324]

Spoiler: kismet

but it's the first thing i saw that could potentially be worth a real vote

i'm not trying to get to strength of conviction here, i'm more just asking "if this is a scum play, what is nacho actually trying to do w/ it" because at first glance it just seems like something you don't understand or agree with

trying to get an easy flip without too much discussion if possible to get to night faster

ultimately i think this take is reasonable.

My issue is that it's a bit overly simplistic/naive (how we get from Nacho's singular vote to a D1 elim (with the assumption that that's what he's even trying to do here) on N_M w/o further action on Nacho's part is something I have trouble believing would actually happen)

I'm not going to overreact about it due to where it happened in the game (p1) and what you were upgrading from (rvs) and i think that fact is important to consider for overall Trajectory

This is a good push, being skeptical of skitt for not considering scum motivation makes a lot of sense.

In my heart of hearts I want to believe that Infinity, VFT and I have all found each other early; Infinity is probably the closest thing I have to a proper townread atm, and I generally like how skitter is approaching the nacho read overall.

I'm not willing to sell Nacho down the river at this point; I don't like the angle he's chosen to open with but I don't think it has a lot of staying power as a place to sit on a mislim. It's possible that 101 is happening I guess but like I'm never gonna get to that w/o n_m at least showing up for the game. I have a tendency to scumread nacho early from days of yore, but the stuff w/ Salsa is giving me a little pause in that he's possibly trying to latch on to the tonal things he things he can read in some of the people reacting to what he's doing, and you can see that w/ Salsa here.

very eager to see how noddy/bulge resolve themselves; both chose to kind of signal each other in their first posts and I'm curious to see where that goes.

I have some thoughts on Mena but I think it's too early in the game to really do much w/ it yet based on the content I've seen from that slot.

I like the vote on L&G and am going to go there too; mostly just cause I wanna be somewhere, iso is pretty vapid, and the phrasing of 109 just irks me vs a more reasonable "who are you scumreading atm"
VOTE: L&G

Good takes, often "here's how I'm looking at the game"/readslist posts can look performative from scum but this one isn't at all

gamblers fallacy says bc I drew town he has to be scum

I mean you obvously don't really believe this so can you speak about what you mean more plainly?

I mean I basically agree and was more waiting to see how that relationship developed than i was to throw down about it now

what were you trying to get at in 131?

Feels like he's trying to figure out notsci here

My experience is that Not Mafia tends to lurk a lot, doesn't tend to scumhunt nor contribute in a significant way to the point where he basically doesn't play the game.

Nacho,

people generally 'get' this part of your point, and either agree or are at least sympathetic to it although this is a ymmv experience from game to game

i think at least where you're losing me is that you seem to be saying that scum getting the opportunity to safehouse (i'm going to use this term to refer to a scum reverse nk) n_m is like a huge value play for them, to the point that we need to scorched earth the shit out of that slot to ensure that they don't have the opportunity to do this, even if he is town.

and i just don't understand the significance of that play in particular. if he's town and we mislim him we're down 1-0, same as mislimming anyone else. and yes, in the 'anyone else' case, scum now has the opportunity to safehouse n_m. why is it such a +++scum move to do that? i think if you can elaborate on that we might get to a spot of more mutual understanding

Trying to come to a mutual understanding on this when there isn't really much scum motivation to do so. Could be to look "reasonable", but most people would probably think continuing to argue what you believe or just move on are reasonable as well.

only that’s not what happened? I wanted to know why skitt was TRing you bc you’re evidently experienced but I have no idea what your scumgame is like from a range of like FL to kerset

I singled you out bc u were the only one I didn’t get from skitt’s pov (infinity isn’t town either yet, but skitt generally slaps a read on her earlier than I will)

And like yeh, no shit I haven’t tried reading u yet, hence why i was surprised to see skitt professing a TR on a v unknown quality in a game where there’s like, reasonable incentive for scum to TR each other

i'm aware i'm spinning this a bit because i think that might be the potential reason for scum to approach from that angle.

i wasn't really considering the point of you trying to force skitter to legitimize her read on me, and that's fair.

overall, i have a decent amount of content out there and i guess i am expecting at least some engagement on it though, but if your primary focus is on skitter at this point in time rather than me with that progression, that really does change my interpretation of your trajectory and i don't mind it as much.

Scum can often mess up when to back up on pushes like this, and this felt natural

I don't generally consider that to be a scum correlative behavior really

for me i'm more just trying to see the evolution of the nacho stance
i feel like being able to vote does make a difference as this was not really an action open to him in that game but ok, i acknowledge your interpretation of nacho's demeanor toward you

i'm still trying to make up my mind and trying to see where your head is overall; attitudewise stuff like 337 i can see coming from frustrated town which is why i engaged

The tone of this has a "sorry I was harsh earlier" quality to it that I think would manifest itself very differently (defensively?) as scum.

This is just from the beginning of the game, I could keep going (I liked him TRing me for TRing eeveelutions) but this is enough to justify my read for now

I'll do skitt in a bit

[Infinity 324]

I'm having a hard time articulating what I like about skitt beyond what I already have. Somehow I feel like her notsci read in 303 and her bork read in 479 would look different. She's also mindmelding with me on nacho

[Infinity 324]

would look different

as scum

[Infinity 324]

You can finally see my towniness

felt good on reread.

but again, there's not much here.

I agree

[Infinity 324]

I feel like people in general don't usually push policy elims nowadays

[Infinity 324]

Not sure if you've gotten to it yet, I think beeboy's read on me was towny.

[Infinity 324]

also i know ydra is gonna hate me for this but she's looking a lto more like the vs. game than, say, divide and conquer ...

I mean ydra just isn't posting, sometimes she just doesn't post as town.

I thought the way beeboy applied his theory to this game felt quite believable.

[Infinity 324]

Sorry :/

[Infinity 324]

i mean doesn't she at the very least fluffpost and post about anime or ice cream or whatever as town, even if there's no content?

In two day penultimate mafia which was recently abandoned, her posting was similar to here (pop in once and a while and say nothing). I'm hoping she gets to the content part this time :)

[Infinity 324]

I'm not confident in my ability to read cakez, but he feels pretty towny tbh

[Infinity 324]

Thanks!

Mena is always concerned with how people read him and I think it might actually be towny

[Infinity 324]

@bork I would probably outsource the read to skitt and not me, I have a pretty terrible track record of reading mena. Though the best way to read that slot is probably just for ydrasse to post.

[Infinity 324]

I was just curious lol

[Infinity 324]

I feel like y'all might be underestimating my scumgame but w/e I'm town here

[Infinity 324]

I'm not townreading ydrasse yet, but there was that point in divide and conquer where she posted like this so we'll see

614 is the only post that actually pings me

[Infinity 324]

and infinity don't you even dare i READ you like a book that one game...

- ydra

No excuses etc but yeah I'm not good in marathon-type setups

[Infinity 324]

i do a lot better in the moment i think than going back to read things

you're not obligated to catch up on everything if playing in the moment is a better way for you to get reads / show your alignment

Agree with this

[Infinity 324]

i mean you literally made a whole thing about saying the exact opposite last week, remember?
lol

The way I played this game is much more in my scumrange than the way I played divide and conquer, that game I got really aggressive really early and that own required more real-time interaction. I still would probably have a hard time faking my conviction here though

[Infinity 324]

I still think infinity/leafeon interactions feel weirdly weak. infinity's line of questioning on "do you post like this as scum" etc doesn't seem like it's really meant to go anywhere meaningful and ends with her soft-townreading leafeon. I don't see how misty's responses were particularly towny.

Basically I had this idea where mistyx would not force thoughts if she didn't have any as town where she would force them as scum. It doesnt look like that was correct, but I finished townreading her for 510 which I felt like she would've presented differently (perhaps not even quoting my post) if it was both wrong and fake as opposed to just wrong.

[Infinity 324]

finished the engagement* townreading her

[Infinity 324]

510 is literally the reason, since then kismet made a good point about 511 (wasn't trying to look town) and beeboy came up with a read on me I thought was pretty good (as well as...being a content post)

[Infinity 324]

Why?

[Infinity 324]

Why would I risk shaking the house of cards if we're partners and they can just TR me anyway?

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I feel like it looks weird to post a readslist after beeboy said what he said no matter what

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can you elaborate on what you were talking about here? why/how was it looking good for him?

Nacho wanting to lim them, skitter and kismet not

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INFINITY YOU TOO!
What do you think about the game so far?

What do you make of Nacho and cake going after low ballers right off the bat

Mostly I think nacho is scum and we should lim him and figure out the best from there.

What do you mean by low ballers?

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@mara Yeah I'm not sure why cakez said that.

I do think nacho believes it's protown to lim NM here, but he's scum for other reasons

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People have been saying this as long as I have been playing the game and I am convinced they were saying it before that as well

Policy elims never really happened, but I think people used to policy vote people more often for lurking/being toxic

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{bulge, DC, NM, mom, nacho, cakez}

@bork, skitt Who do you think is most likely scum outside this pool?

Bork, thoughts?

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is there anything deeper you're trying to get at here to have posted the question in such a way?

No, just wanted to see if you particularly disagreed with one of my TRs

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In my limited experience with bulge they're super obvtown as town and they're not that this game

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I'm having a hard time articulating what I like about skitt beyond what I already have. Somehow I feel like her notsci read in 303 and her bork read in 479 would look different. She's also mindmelding with me on nacho

None of these are good reasons for VFT town.

Why are they scum?

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Thanks!

Mena is always concerned with how people read him and I think it might actually be towny

Why do you think this? As scum, it allows him to dig into what people don't like him and course correct - it also gives him a direct chance to change people's reads on him.

Psychologically I'd expect scum to want to look like they don't care about reads on them, though admittedly that's pretty weak and I'm not at all confident the slot is town

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huh??

Imo you were bleedingly obvious town in that normal I was spectating where you were loyal JK, other people didn't seem to agree though.

PEdit: specifically, he's always like that as town, I don't have the sample size as scum to draw a conclusion there.

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I don't really deadsheep but dead townies' reads have a lot of influence on mine

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:O Hi ydrasse!

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Ydrasse what do you believe in most this game?

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@ydra Talk to mena about nacho for me

Nacho keeps posting stuff that pings me and I'm at the point where he's just always going to be my preferred elim for today so yeah

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Oh if that's the case nacho is even more scummy here somehow

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Yeah I also feel paranoid that everyone seems to have the same reads but townblocs are rough for scum to deal with, if nacho flips town I'll re-evaluate

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A bunch more people need to catch up but yeah

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I would be pretty unhappy if anyone except nacho was limmed today

His cases aren't someone who believes players are scum, his mindset is "why me instead of these people who aren't doing anything"

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who are my partners? who am I bussing? who do you townread and why?

You're scum with bulge and maybe DC, I don't know who else. I've talked about my TRs on kismet, VFT, L&G, and notsci is pretty obvtown too. My cakez read is really hard to explain but it feels like he believes in his pushes. Honestly I think me posting a lot of content would do more harm than good because there are like 5 people who need to catch up before we can really make progress here.

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I just...don't see your reasons for SRing mist. For example the kismet question made a lot of sense, after my interaction with her kismet came in and TRed both of us so it's reasonable to ask whether he's also scum with us or what. A bunch of your issues are wording issues which I don't agree are there. Looks to me like she's demotivated and latching on to the most salient things for her. The beeboy thing is fine, I thought his TR on me was pretty good but idk beeboy's meta enough to say whether his play so far is scummy for him (does he tend to post theory as scum? town? does he say absolutely nothing as scum, or poke his head in once in a while?)

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Do you feel the same about the others that I highlighted?

Not really, but when you're disengaged town you don't ask the best questions and calling those questions an attempt to look active is a stretch. The scum motivation isn't really there.

None of my issues are wording issues so that's wrong.

I guess the only wording issue was with the "tailored to not sticking out in the threadstate" thing

It's hypocritical for Mist to attack Cakez for not being thorough enough in reasoning when Mist isn't a player who is thorough with reasoning, like, ever. Her reasoning for saying that Cakez was trying to present uncontroversial reads was just bad - she said that he didn't give a read on me when yes he did and she dinged him for not giving a read on the Not_Mafia because he was a "top wagon" when she hadn't given a read on Not_Mafia herself which is also just bad.

None of this is scum-indicative imo.

Honestly I'm not too interested in sorting L&G at this point since if beeboy doesn't post by the end of d2 I'd be happy to elim there and I'd much rather scum safehouse them than safehouse you.

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Also mistyx could catch up and spew her alignment either way

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Honestly I'm not too interested in sorting L&G at this point

Trust me, I can tell.

This is what tunneling looks like. You're not giving my posts or my points a fair shake because you think that I am scum. You are ignoring what I am doing because you think that I am scum.

Not ignoring your posts, they keep pinging me

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I could get into my "how do I know how confident to be" thing but basically, it's more common that I have a correct early scumread but drop the read than I have a wrong SR and don't re-evaluate.

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Nacho I'm not sure what to tell you, I'm not even just continuing to SR you for the same reasons from early on because you continue to post things that look scummy to me. It's just not worth it to go into that because you're not going to change my mind. I'm not exactly sure what scum!you is supposed to do if me/bork/notsci/VFT are all town, you tried to push VFT and it didn't take. And for everyone else, I don't know who you're bussing and not (though I have some ideas) and I'll figure it out when you flip scum. If you're town, I'm sorry and I'll re-evaluate my view of the game and heavily weight your reads because I know you're a good player and you'll be confirmed town to me then. I just don't see that happening atm.

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I think L&G are town so yeah

Also was I in order of the stick?

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You haven't had to sort me before yeah? All my reads are gut reads, when I give a reason for a read it's usually a poor attempt to explain my gut

You mentioned some stuff about site meta and theory which I said because I like talking about site meta and theory and weren't very relevant to the game

"It doesn't look like that was correct" was because I assume people don't lie about their playstyle since it's verifiable

Whether people enjoy an alignment can take months to change, afaik skitt hasn't been enjoying scum for a while

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Why did you think 97 or 230 could be AI at all?

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I think bulge's observation about my posting is actually a good one, though he picks on very odd things to think are AI and that worries me

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("idk how scum think" is such a bizarre thing to say!!!). 454 is insane and has to be fake, what do you mean you don't believe skitter's mood would have changed since "just a few days ago"?????

I was thinking that acting really baffled about a townie's play might be scummy, because town tends to resort to "sometimes town just act weird" or "ok you're just scum" depending on your philosophy. Not sure though.

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Bulge why didn't you ask a clarifying question about the skitt read? Or try to take into account the context (skitt's overall enjoyment of playing scum lately)?

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Ydrasse are you scum? :(

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anyway glad to have you back salsa

It's 01:44 here am here, still can't cross half of the pages! I'm feeling bad to be back :cry: :facepalm:

:(

My reasons for SRing nacho don't really have to do with him SRing NM, he just feels fake to me.

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What do you think about his 476?

Didn't think much of it tbh

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Notsci felt passionate about defending bork, and it made sense that a townie would have that reaction when learning who someone is if you know their meta

Eeveelutions = leafeon and glaceon, both evolutions of the pokemon eevee

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Oh and it was towny for bork because I trusted notsci's meta reasons to TR bork.

Salsa feels like her normal self, may have to look at her scumgame at some point

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Why did you think 97 or 230 could be AI at all?

Bulge why didn't you ask a clarifying question about the skitt read? Or try to take into account the context (skitt's overall enjoyment of playing scum lately)?

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But hes town for pushing the PL on NM and that didn't take?
Also, what are the other reasons for scumcho? How are you even making this assertion when Nacho backed away from that scum read before other people had serious opinions about it?

A lot of people had expressed townreads on VFT before nacho backed away from it. No idea what the question about the NM push is about, I don't think it's particularly relevant to nacho's alignment. Look in my ISO for why nacho is scum. He's doing pretty much textbook what strong scum do when they're about to get limmed, AtE, appealing to people, and hoping to effort his way out. I'm done with the nacho stuff, I think he should 100% be elimmed and I want to sort elsewhere right now.

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The way mom is approaching sorting this game doesn't feel genuine

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Mena if you don't have anything productive to say please don't post

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<3 hope you're doing ok

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“don’t talk if you’re not gonna be nice” instead of like, making any effort to engage me just also felt bad

? You weren't showing any desire or motivation to play the game, you were just being unpleasant

Me being disengaged from mafia recently hasn't helped though. What do you want to talk about?

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Mena I wasn't trying to be antagonistic I literally wanted you to stop posting because I thought it was making the game less pleasant

Who are your strongest TRs?

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These aren't the real reasons I SR nacho (namely gut) but other people have pointed out a) his read flip on VFT was sudden and didn't seem genuine, and the read didn't seem genuine to begin with, b) The "sheep me after I die" thing didn't make much sense when he had similar reads to a bunch of other people and c) the read flip on peta when he replaced in didn't make sense

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and I'm saying that I think you know me well enough to know that approaching it in that way was never likely to actually achieve that if that was your goal and idk why you didn't just try to engage me at that point like you are now

It certainly seemed like trying to actually play mafia wouldn't achieve much, I don't think I know upset!mena well enough to know what would help and what wouldn't. My instinct is to try to stop toxic situations before they come up, maybe I could've approached it differently

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To be 100% honest nothing anyone has said has convinced me that {me, notsci, bork, VFT} isn't a townbloc, and I'm sort of just waiting for mom/bulge to post because those are the only slots I don't feel like I've sorted yet. People have said that nacho could be town, which is possible I guess, but nacho is mostly on board with the bloc as well? Maybe I'll re-evaluate VFT but yeah that's where I'm at with the game rn

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Tbh I think mena is being towny

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Why is cakez scum

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Peta I'm sorry I'm not engaging you about nacho, those aren't even the real reasons I think he's scum so /shrug

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Idk I’m curious about infinity on peta actually

Peta actually doesn't really feel like his town self to me yet, but maybe that's just cause of the situation that he replaced into so I'll give it time

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I don't think the way he approached notsci was particularly scummy

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Notsci how confident are you that bulge is town?

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The scummiest thing about peta so far is how he's pushing strongly for a thing he believes (nacho town, townbloc has scum) without having figured much out himself

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Yeah, it's just salsa and mena both feel quite towny to me atm

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Cakez, mena doesn't seem to be the type of player to use a lot of AtE as scum?

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Salsa's flipping actually feels very genuine to me

She's my strongest TR outside the bloc

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Cakez, mena doesn't seem to be the type of player to use a lot of AtE as scum?

He did in panic room, were you there?

It didn't feel like this game I don't think (though I didn't have to sort him there) and it was a uniquely dire situation

[Infinity 324]

NM was never in danger, also who's the scum pushing nacho

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Thoughts on momrangal?

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I'm not sure you'll get 100% infinity again this game, but maybe if we get a flip and the game gets revitalized a bit

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also given that i am not willing to consider noddy as the scum in the townbloc because i know how noddy plays and i am telling you you're wrong:

why is vft scum? this is something i have been soliciting reasoning for for a while and i don't feel like i've gotten much out of anyone about it.

I think people are underrating how towny lilith is too

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: the bulge

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The scummiest thing about peta so far is how he's pushing strongly for a thing he believes (nacho town, townbloc has scum) without having figured much out himself

Okay I ISO'd to see what the reasoning on The Bulge was but found this instead.

VOTE: Infinity

? And peta was scum so?

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I think bulge's observation about my posting is actually a good one, though he picks on very odd things to think are AI and that worries me

("idk how scum think" is such a bizarre thing to say!!!). 454 is insane and has to be fake, what do you mean you don't believe skitter's mood would have changed since "just a few days ago"?????

I was thinking that acting really baffled about a townie's play might be scummy, because town tends to resort to "sometimes town just act weird" or "ok you're just scum" depending on your philosophy. Not sure though.

Bulge why didn't you ask a clarifying question about the skitt read? Or try to take into account the context (skitt's overall enjoyment of playing scum lately)?

These are my thoughts on bulge, which is a scumread since I have too many TRs

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What makes that post so bad is the quoted behavior from petapan is not scummy in the slightest unless you're already approaching it from a perspective of knowing petapan is scum.

As long as you have Nacho town you can defend it regardless of where you're at with the rest of the game. Asserting a townbloc has scum if you don't have many other reads is not surprising in the slightest.

I don't agree at all

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Normally there's at least some level of uncertainty that comes with not having figured the game out, peta was approaching it with an agenda. Kismet notsci I and to a lesser extent VFT are all very towny but peta was so sure there was scum in that group without knowing who it was.

[Infinity 324]

Though I'm limited by game knowledge, I strongly disagree that this is scummy and think this points to an informed perspective on your end.

Why can't I disagree with you on theory here

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Though I'm limited by game knowledge, I strongly disagree that this is scummy and think this points to an informed perspective on your end.

Why can't I disagree with you on theory here

I'm here to make educated guesses not to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

It's pretty easy to see by reading my ISO that I disagree with everyone on like 90% of mafia theory so if you are trying to read me like this you'll have a bad time.

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Scum often don't know how confident to be, especially when they replace in, town generally have examples in mind when they're suspicious of a group. Peta didn't want to point to examples because the townies were all transparently town and he didn't want to sow paranoia on a buddy. If you want I can argue this point with you until I can convince you I believe it

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I don't think you're scummy for calling my peta read scummy, but maybe I can get something AI from this interaction

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: not_mafia

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The point of my question about how theoretical the action was is that I didn't see them trying to sort me as claimed by boiling it down to theoretical disagreement alone. I believe they have a very hard townread my slot so that serves as some explanation for this leeway.

The main purpose of the engagement wasn't to sort you, I was mostly just annoyed that I was being SRed for being right on a scumread. If you SRed me for nacho stuff I'd be a lot more ok with it. I don't hard TR you but I do think you're town

Bork's read on mom makes sense, so bulge, n_m, DC and one of iverson, VFT, cakez?

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Bork, I haven't really read in depth since my wall. I won't get the chance until fairly late tomorrow and knowing me that might push until Wednesday. Currently willing to kill any of Mom/Bulge/Not Mafia because I think peta's entrance looked pretty good.

[Infinity 324]

1058

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ok see if you can explain his townread on me, i'll wait

If it makes you feel better I'm working back to a scumread on you!

Would've liked to see final thoughts here but this is all we got

[Infinity 324]

Sorry nacho

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That's E-3, also don't put people at E-1 until we're ready for an elim

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Scum are going all out to get 2-0 and put us on the back foot for the rest of the game, there’s at least 1, probably 2 scum already on me here, if I were scum I would 100% have been the sacrifice

There were a bunch of townies defending you

[Infinity 324]

uh no it's de facto e-1 I'm p sure

4 votes + N_M will probably hammer himself

Iverson unvoted but ok

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What's your read on bulge?

Notsci do you still TR bulge?

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I'm pretty sure 97 is an NAI post, why is it towny to you?

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Iverson feels towny

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He's talking about the wagon today

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Ydrasse how much have you read

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I do think peta would've been my top scumspect today too

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heya infinity

Hi idk what to do this game. Too many people are towny and the people that could be scum aren't posting

[Infinity 324]

who are the people you think could be scum?

Ok that's not true, my scumreads (bulge, NM) aren't posting

Everyone else is towny to me, or if there scummy I don't know how I'd figure it out (you, cakez)

I almost want to say mena is scum cause I like his posting so much but lol

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Like, I'm pretty confident my reads would be better if I just sheeped bork or something, given my history of post d1 reads

But I can't do that cause people need me to be towny

But I'm also not good at asking sorting questions

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Mena I don't feel nearly as confident about this game as you do

Do you think scum are all like bussing? Or why is there so much consensus here?

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: bulge

[Infinity 324]

what is this sudden burst against nm lmao

- ydra

It's mostly PoE for me

[Infinity 324]

what is this sudden burst against nm lmao

- ydra

It's mostly PoE for me

poe as in both bulge + nm are scum or just bulge

- ydra

Both, bulge's posting is scummy too imo

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Mena I don't feel nearly as confident about this game as you do

Do you think scum are all like bussing? Or why is there so much consensus here?

I think this is just scum backed into a corner so yeh I think scum are bussing or just not doing anything because they know if they just coast it out then there is potential for the wind to start blowing another direction out of apathy and oh hey, look, we have a trash bulge wagon all of a second!

But like, I felt the same way on d1 and nacho's flip is worrying me

[Infinity 324]

And N_M’s isn’t?

No, a while ago I tried to look into NMs meta to find any sort of pattern and couldn't find one

[Infinity 324]

Mena I don't get why you're so opposed to this wagon when you're confident in the PoE that bulge is kinda part of

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You're confident VFT is town mena?

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i will say that if both bulge and nm flip scum then DC is probably just super town

Why?

Bulge has made scummy posts and nacho wanted them dead too

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Is skitt out of her scumrange?

PEdit: one is scummy by posting and PoE and one is only scummy by PoE? I don't get what's so difficult to understand here

[Infinity 324]

more familiar but i'm not seeing it on its own. looking at your reads the case is like: bad read on infinity, isn't voting(???), feels distant? am i getting that right?

Bulge solving usually comes in smaller bites but it feels better than this. Him taking all that time to make the biggest wall he's ever made but not placing a vote is a problem, absolutely - scum put in effort to look town where town put in effort to find scum and kill scum and also look town. I don't think his wall furthers a town agenda (as a whole doesn't feel like he tried to actually solve anything especially with stuff like the "nacho is the most important person to solve" without saying anything about me) - and putting all that effort in and not having a scum suspect you feel comfortable voting boggles my mind although maybe I weigh the importance of voting too much. I can absofuckinglutely see that wall in a world where Bulge wants to fool notscience, though.

[Infinity 324]

Really don't like the Bulge wagon popping up randomly

Who's scum on the bulge

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I honestly don't get why people are so confident NM is scum here and not bulge, has bulge done anything towny? It's making me more confident in my bulge vote if anything

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I still think most of the people defending NM yesterday are town and the people pushing NM are much less so. The weirdest part is that the people pushing NM seem to agree and don't TR each other that strongly right?

[Infinity 324]

one is scummy by posting and PoE and one is only scummy by PoE? I don't get what's so difficult to understand here

This was to ydrasse but anyone insisting on the NM wagon can answer, though iverson had some independent reasons to SR NM so that made sense