Mini 2251: Triplicate! GAME OVER!

[Radical Rat]

First

[Radical Rat]

I still understand nothing. Expect no change in that regard.

Is there anything in particular you're confused about? I think it's very much worth understanding the mechanics if you're Town in even one game.

[Radical Rat]

I still understand nothing. Expect no change in that regard.

you vote someone
if they get limped then they get limmed in all 3 games

Only for the first lim. After that, shenanigans ensue.

[Radical Rat]

@A50

You're wrong about at least me, and while I obviously can't speak for the others, I have no idea where you got Dunn, considering he hasn't logged into the account yet, so... Yeah, I'm inclined to think this is just one of your wacky gambits.
On the bright side, I can't tunnel you over it this time since you already flipped!

[Radical Rat]

RCEnigma does not want to combat a foe he is unfamiliar with.

The fear is delicious.

Well I realized dying here doesn't elim me from the other games so whatever catches scum here is fine.

It does though.
In order for you to die in game 3, you must be voted by a majority. A50's death doesn't change the threshold, so unless we eliminate someone else in Games 1/2 first, by having A50 on the wagon, or limming A50, you'll also reach a majority in the others.

[Radical Rat]

BANG! BANG!

Radical Rat has DIED in the Open Game.

He was: A Radical Rat.

Also

Spoiler:

A Mafioso

Well, it was worth a try. I was only scum in that game, so I figured, eh, might as well go for it and just worry about playing Town in the other 2.

For my buddies though: mastina was who I attempted to shoot, so cross her off your mason lists.

[Radical Rat]

And NOW the elimination threshold in Game 3 should be lowered to 6.

[Radical Rat]

BANG! BANG!

Radical Rat has DIED in the Open Game.

He was: A Radical Rat.

Also

Spoiler:

A Mafioso

Well, it was worth a try. I was only scum in that game, so I figured, eh, might as well go for it and just worry about playing Town in the other 2.

For my buddies though: mastina was who I attempted to shoot, so cross her off your mason lists.

This does not make you town in the other 2 games

I'm not claiming to be conftown, only that I am town.

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: RCEnigma

Simply Perish

VOTE: RCE

VOTE: RCE

I forgot that in this mechanic the votes are reset after a flip.

You know that doesn't apply to game 3 since we're dead, right? Or do you think RCE's scum in the others too?

[Radical Rat]

I vote you guys speedrun Game 3. The low voting threshold is going to interfere with the other two, unless only the dead people start the wagons

[Radical Rat]

Basically, in order to avoid multi lims, if you wish to eliminate someone in D3, you need to vote for me, A50, House, or RCE immediately after. Ideally there would be a roughly even distribution across the four to avoid accidental elimination, but that's hard to coordinate, so y'know, just pay attention and be careful to at least avoid putting us at E-1, unless you intend to eliminate us in Game 1 and/or 2.

But because we're already basically halfway through Game 3, and the lower threshold is going to make it very difficult to avoid collateral damage there if we try to eliminate for 1/2, we should finish Game 3 first.

Or rather, you should finish Game 3 first, since y'know. I'm dead.

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Game 3 is doomed, unless our final buddy can pull off a miracle. If only we could aim better...

[Radical Rat]

I do not feel like reading the 20 pages that appeared since I last checked right now, is Game 3 done yet?

[Radical Rat]

I don’t like RR talking about nothing but mech. He has yet to make a single read.

VOTE: RR

I do not feel like reading the 20 pages that appeared since I last checked right now, is Game 3 done yet?

Yeah, you guys lost. Don’t you have any thoughts about games 1 and 2?

I do not feel like reading the 20 pages that appeared since I last checked right now, is Game 3 done yet?

You're the leading wagon. What are your reads?

Alright, so I was remaining intentionally silent because I wanted to avoid accidentally incriminating Meg/T3, or exonerating others, but now that that's not a concern...

I think Meg's overcomplicated Jester claim is serious. The theme is literally about hypercomplex bureaucracy, so tacking a billion modifiers on a weird hybrid 3P role feels like it fits right in.
For the Simple Roleblocker claim, I'm not really sure if it's serious, but it's an odd D1 claim regardless. Definitely Anti-Town to claim so early, at the very least.

For these reasons, and with the hope that Jester doesn't end the game, I'm most comfortable doing this
VOTE: MegAzumarill

Other slots of note:

mastina's been bothering me, in particular her aggressive "Fuck you if you don't townread me" attitude, but the only game I've played with her was a recent one in which she was IC and in a hydra, so I don't know if that's normal for her. I'd also be okay limming her.

A50 I think is pretty clearly pure Town, so as much as I would like to eliminate him out of spite for his admittedly brilliant alt-hunting strat... I'm not voting there unless something substantial changes.

Other than that, I'm nullscum on everyone. Why on everyone instead of just a few? Because I think the majority of players are scum in at least one game, so it's unlikely to get a truly wrong elimination. I suppose we COULD try to keep doing one game at a time by letting deadline run out in Game 2, but... That's a bad idea that will probably lead to Town losing both games.

[Radical Rat]

Alright, so I was remaining intentionally silent because I wanted to avoid accidentally incriminating Meg/T3, or exonerating others, but now that that's not a concern...

What is this supposed to mean? Why are you concerned about incriminating certain players and exonerating others?

I'm not anymore. That was when Game 3 was still active, and I didn't want to accidentally lead to my partners' deaths.

[Radical Rat]

It is in our best interest to purge demons, not jesters.

And the alternative is less attractive, while a pure PR revealed is weaker, why eliminate on such a basis?

Anyone who believes the claim and votes MegAzumarill because of it vexes me.

Let me be perhaps a bit more clear.
I believe the Jester claim. I do not believe the Roleblocker claim, or at least don't believe the Town part of it. Nor do I believe it was a "joke"

So, I think Meg is scum in Game 1, and Jester in Game 2. By eliminating there, we eliminate scum in one game, and a 3P with very scary powers in another. It avoids limming a Townie in either game, which makes it seem like a rather appealing option.

[Radical Rat]

I can kinda get the Jester nonsense, but... As a TPR, why on Earth would you fakeclaim a DIFFERENT TPR???

[Radical Rat]

If you seriously believed her jester claim, then you should have been opposed to her lim in game B. Now if you only said you thought she was 3P it would make more sense but why would anyone believing the jester claim think she was a good vote in B? This makes no sense.

However, if you thought she was 3P (but not jester) in game B, then that is actually why you should have not voting her in game B because why would you vote out someone that you think isn’t scum?

If she just claimed regular boring Jester? Yeah, I'd probably let her live until we got close to MeLo. But she claimed to be bulletproof, so very little chance of her being nightkilled, barring a scum strongman or something, AND having a compulsive vig and JK, and I assumed the multitasking part meant she could pick different targets for each, which would have been killing and disrupting mostly Town, but maybe some scum if we were lucky.

That's also why I was inclined to believe it. In addition to overcomplication seeming thematically appropriate, the fact that she was claiming something so immensely anti-Town that couldn't be otherwise dealt with justified the Jester claim, whereas a normal Jester probably wouldn't be inclined to claim. Further, if such a broken role existed AND ended the game on death... I would have a great deal many questions for whoever reviewed that setup.


Your point about always letting 3Ps live though is just wrong. Excepting Survivor, which is situational, most 3Ps are functionally scum, and should be dealt with accordingly.

[Radical Rat]

Also, I DID think she was Scum in Game A, because it would have made no sense for a real Roleblocker to claim D1, and even less sense for a Tracker to claim Roleblocker D1. And we couldn't really only eliminate there without skipping an elimination, which is an awful idea.

If I had a strong townread on her in Game 1, perhaps I would have been more hesitant. But I didn't, so I wasn't.

[Radical Rat]

I was wondering if prod rules applied normally here. Good to know they do not.

[Radical Rat]

I don't really think it matters whether we talk about important things at night or not. Obviously we should be careful about outing PRs and such, but I don't think the scum benefit to nighttime discussion is particularly greater than the town benefit.

Up to individual discretion if you ask me

[Radical Rat]

If I die before day 2 in every game I'm taking my ball and going home.

You have at least a few hours during which you're effectively a Townstump for Game 1.
Who did you JK? What are your final reads?

[Radical Rat]

I believe Dwlee's point is more that you could have logged in, during the night, but had your active status hidden. Rendering this whole thing rather pointless.

Also, you said you can find "

all 3 scum

" in both games. Unless I'm missing something, the only setup that states how many scum there are was Game 3, in which there were four. What makes you so sure there's three in the others?

[Radical Rat]

Dwlee seems Town to me, I don't really get the suspicion on them.

I don't remember any hard townslips from mastina, excepting the one where she outed herself as Mason, which of course doesn't apply to these two games, but sometimes I can be oblivious to these things, so I'll reserve judgement until she gets home to clarify that. But this whole "alibi" thing just doesn't sit right with me. Not even in an ethical/spirit of the game sense, I think it's perfectly acceptable on that front, but this whole stunt proves absolutely nothing, and in her initial post about it mastina even outlines some (though not all) of the ways in which it is flawed as an alibi, so it bothers me that she's trying to give it so much weight. I do agree that losing a bulletproof in Game 2 would be catastrophic though, so... if we do decide to eliminate her it should only be in Game 1. To that end...

VOTE: mastina

Since Day 2 hasn't started yet for Game 2, that *should* allow us to eliminate her just once.

P-Edit: Too late, so UNVOTE: , but the lack of death means the threshold is different anyway, so it's a moot point anyway

[Radical Rat]

Mastina vote Dwlee, don't engage in their antics.

Do you not think T3 should be wagoned?

No, I think they're only scum in one game since they have reverted closers to their town meta since their scum flip. Do you have reason to suspect them?

Mastina vote Dwlee, don't engage in their antics.

Do you not think T3 should be wagoned?

No, I think they're only scum in one game since they have reverted closers to their town meta since their scum flip. Do you have reason to suspect them?

This is so bad

T3 has hardly even posted since his game 3 flip

my town meta has recently been low posting

And since you're aware of that, it means nothing, as you could just intentionally post less as scum...

[Radical Rat]

IF the Demon Lord is Town, they should not use the ability for now. Not being forced to double lim is very helpful. Use it once the numbers are farther apart if you wish.

[Radical Rat]

That's not how the voting works. You've just voted for Dwlee in both games

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: House

A bit of OMGUS, but even if it weren't on me, I don't like him showing up just to drop a naked vote

[Radical Rat]

I'm afraid to have more players I'd like to declare war on than signing a peace treaty with.

Just makes the peace all the sweeter in the end.
Should be easier to get balanced out once we start flipping scum though

[Radical Rat]

As in 4 separate alignments were on that wagon? Or 4 people different from yours?

[Radical Rat]

Is Demon Lord even being counted in that, since it's not really a player slot?

[Radical Rat]

Demon Lord/House
House/mastina
mastina/CheekyTeeky
CheekyTeeky/T3
T3/Radical Rat
Radical Rat/Dwlee99

Four of these pairs are different if I'm interpreting this correctly.
So probably no consecutive scum votes. Demon, mastina, T3, Dwlee makes the most sense I guess?

[Radical Rat]

This is where mastina claimed BP though, and that's partially supported by the no kill.

Demon, House, T3, Dwlee only has three changes though...

[Radical Rat]

So there's probably a 3P in the mix somewhere. Maybe that's what Demon Lord counts as since it's technically not a Town or Scum player.

[Radical Rat]

If I'm counting correctly Dwlee's at E-2 in Game 1, and E-4 in Game 2?

Is there a way around eliminating them in Game 1? I don't think there is, but I don't really want to be stuck with another double elimination.

[Radical Rat]

That would only work in the other direction, and it would require Meg to be alive in Game 1. The no kill means we don't have anyone alive in 1 that isn't in 2, which is what we would need to single vote the same way we did with Game 3.

I think the only way to avoid it would be to eliminate someone else for Game 1, then vote Dwlee during the night. In which case, I think I'd like to do House still. Triple scum is highly improbable, but I do think he's scum in at least one game still, so either he flips scum and is most likely town in 2, or flips town and is a viable scum candidate in 2. And we can use that to help work through the rest of the wagon analysis.

[Radical Rat]

House hasn't really done much of anything since D2 started, except for randomly double voting me with no explanation. I'm assuming he voted twice to explicitly suggest I'm scum in both remaining games, since a single vote would have functioned exactly the same. And that's a hell of an accusation to make without even a little bit of explanation. So it comes off to me like scum aggression rather than genuine suspicion.

[Radical Rat]

I don't really follow the T3 thing. Is it just because he townread RCE?

[Radical Rat]

I don't think that would work, unless the Demon Lord buses you. Because the voting threshold is 1 less in Game 1, and that's not likely to change unless you mess up your kill again, even if you being hated overwrote the loved instead of simply negating it, it would take the same number of votes in both games. And I'm not really inclined to keep scum alive on the promise that they'll cooperate with being limmed the next day.

So yeah, only way you live in Game 1 is if we eliminate someone else first and lim you in 2 during Game 1's night.

[Radical Rat]

So yeah, only way you live in Game 1 is if we eliminate someone else first and lim you in 2 during Game 1's night.

I'm game. Now who is Scum in game 1?

My money's on House

[Radical Rat]

Unless you think Dwlee's also scum in 1, you should vote someone else for now

[Radical Rat]

Because it's impossible to eliminate Dwlee in Game 2 without first triggering an elimination in Game 1, which has a lower hammer threshold. So we should vote scum in 1 now, then do Dwlee during Game 1's night

[Radical Rat]

Aren't all the roles independent of game?
So Dwlee is lying?

How does that mean Dwlee is lying? He's not claiming anything that would require a role to interact with other games

[Radical Rat]

So mastina needs to die in game #2 right?

Sorry, couldn't resist. But yeah, that all sounds pretty reasonable. Do you have any opinions on who we should lim in Game 1 before Dwlee?

[Radical Rat]

Now sell me T3 scum in A, if you will

They were being awkward about the game being confusing when it wasn't, really

And yet, several players continue to express confusion and mess up the voting mechanics. I don't think being confused is AI here, and frankly you suggesting it is looks very bad to me.

I'm quite confident there's at least one or two scum in {House, Dunnstral, Ircher}. mastina and T3 are also possible, but that's more just that I don't particularly townread them as opposed to actively scumreading them.

VOTE: Dunnstral is probably best for now. I think his flip is likely to be more informative than the others for Game 1.

[Radical Rat]

I think his flip is likely to be more informative than the others for Game 1.

Explain?

I'm afraid that if I were to explain that now, you could manipulate your play accordingly.

I will say that it's not anything strong enough to make me INSIST on limming you first, just a preference over the other two for now.

[Radical Rat]

I seek your guidance once again, Wise Rat of Magicka!

I think his flip is likely to be more informative than the others for Game 1.

Explain?

I'm afraid that if I were to explain that now, you could manipulate your play accordingly.

I will say that it's not anything strong enough to make me INSIST on limming you first, just a preference over the other two for now.

Who among House and Ircher are town in Game 1? What about Game 2?

For Game 1 I think there's a solid chance they're both scum. If I knew one of them HAD to be Town, I would probably say House, but that's just from playing the numbers on account of him looking worse in 2 and triple scum being very unlikely, but it is still very possible so I'm not giving him a free townread while he acts scummy just because of the odds.

In Game 2, House is the only other one on the wagon who even CAN be scum I think. It's also possible there isn't another scum besides Dwlee, but I don't see why they wouldn't go for an easy mislim that gets excused by Meg's anti-Town claim. Only reason we're really even looking at the wagon is because of Cheeky's claim, which Scum couldn't have known about beforehand. Off the wagon, I'm still leaning Dunn there, because I don't think I believe the Demon Lord is a Town role, and he should have claimed earlier if it were. A very good slot for a cop check, if one is available.

[Radical Rat]

Oh yeah dealing with this bullshit is also among the things I didn't really want to have to deal with. (it's not a "mastina must die", it's not quite "3p = acceptable loss", it's not any of the others I said previously, but it's among the things that any 3p claim will entail.)

I always call for the death of any 3p because they count against town majority.

You know this.

If you believe mastina's claim, particularly the bit about the wincon, then she pretty clearly would count TOWARDS a Town majority, not against. She needs scum eliminated just as much as we do, unless she's lying which should become pretty apparent later.

[Radical Rat]

I do think Dunn can be scum in game 2, but he (officially) wasn't on the Meg wagon. Assuming mastina isn't lying about being third party, and Cheeky isn't lying about her claim, House is the only other possible scum on the wagon.

[Radical Rat]

She needs at least two mafia dead, according to her description. Possibly all of them in the event there's another 3P, though I don't find that terribly likely.

Regardless though, scum are incapable of killing her on their own, whereas town can eliminate her at any time, so even without the modified wincon it's in her best interest to townside.

[Radical Rat]

You have the exact same scumpool in both games, just a different order?

[Radical Rat]

Unaligned > Any Alignment would count as a change for your purposes I think. I do at least believe that part of Dunnstral's claim; it makes logical sense as the Demon Lord vote isn't Really a player, though I do doubt it's a Town role.

Though I have had a thought...
@Dunnstral, can you confirm whether your Demon Lord vote still counts during Elo?

[Radical Rat]

I'm down with Ircher, yeah. Already on my list, and mastina's argument is a very good one.

@Mod
Updated VC please?

[Radical Rat]

Thank you!

[Radical Rat]

Oh shit, we're running out of time if we want Dwlee dead before the Game 2 deadline. Which we do.

VOTE: Ircher
E-1 in Game 1

[Radical Rat]

Does anyone actually care if the VC's are numbered accurately? I mean the bit at the top. I've been meaning to go back and fix it regardless, just wondering if I should make it a priority tomorrow and whether future setups should even have numbered vote counts.

I don't think it's a huge issue, but the numbers are nice when they are accurate. Doesn't terribly bother me when they aren't though.

What IS mildly bothersome is the deadline saying "Day 1 ends in [time]," even though we're on Day 2 now. Neither are a huge deal though as long as the counts and actual deadline time are accurate.

[Radical Rat]

Somehow I completely overlooked the possibility that scum could lolhammer before we all switched votes.... On the bright side, Game 2 now has two confirmed scum in it, but I have no idea how to approach it without getting us even more fucked in Game 1... I am open to suggestions on that front.

[Radical Rat]

Okay, I have a plan. It's... Not ideal, but it's our only chance of salvaging Game 1 AND still properly playing Game 2.

Game 2's night lasts 12 hours longer than Game 1's. So, if we decide who to eliminate NOW, that gives us a 12 hour window to shove an elimination through before votes start counting in both games.

I think either mastina or House are our best options at this point, preferably mastina first. mastina's whole thing about "I was offline so I can't possibly be scum, even though that proves absolutely nothing" and her extension of the same defense to House, combined with House's distinct lack of any kind of substantial posting just... Looks very, very bad.

[Radical Rat]

I'm down to vote House before game 2 opens. We should've just flipped Dwlee in both ffs.

But I'm town in 1

You'd certainly better be after all the trouble not eliminating you has caused

[Radical Rat]

Somehow I completely overlooked the possibility that scum could lolhammer before we all switched votes.... On the bright side, Game 2 now has two confirmed scum in it, but I have no idea how to approach it without getting us even more fucked in Game 1... I am open to suggestions on that front.

T3 can't be scum without you being scum in Game B. (refer to CT's result if you forgot it).

I know we already came to that conclusion earlier, but clearly something went wrong somewhere along the way. Only explanation that makes sense right now is that Dunn actually is Town, but was incorrect about how Demon Lord interacts with the wagon check. In which case, assuming House to also be Town, everything checks out with T3 and Dwlee scum, which are pretty much confirmed at this point.

[Radical Rat]

Just gonna yoink the pagetop real quick

[Radical Rat]

Okay so... T3 mechanically HAS to be Town then, but then the Ircher vote makes no sense.

@T3
What the hell happened there?

[Radical Rat]

Mastina, I respect you as a player and it is for that precise reason that I scumread you.

Your "alibi" from N1 isn't an alibi. You yourself even acknowledge some of the many ways it fails to function as one in the very post where you claimed it. So, regardless of whatever meta you may or may not have going on here, surely you can understand that it's a bit of a bad look that you keep bringing it up and insisting it confirms you.

Further, while I do believe House/Dunnstral are likely scum (in games 1 and 2 respectively), this proclamation that they aren't allowed to scumread you because of your meta is complete nonsense in this setup. We know you're functionally Town in Game 2. That gives you an opportunity to play to your Town meta, genuinely even, while still potentially being Scum in Game 1. And that doesn't just apply to you, no one can be """confirmed""" through meta reads as long as multiple games are ongoing.

While I don't have as much experience with you as many of the others do, I believe you're smart enough to have already known all of that. As such, the only logical explanation is that you're feigning ignorance (or rather obstinance) so that you can use exactly these arguments to defend yourself, and hope if you repeat it loudly enough people give up.

If you have some extra hidden secret that makes your "alibi" actually an alibi, or you have a good reason why you couldn't be playing to your Town meta despite having a Town-adjacent role in Game 2, then I'll hear you out. Failing that, there's not much point in engaging with you for Game 1.


Regarding Game 2, I haven't properly reviewed your analysis because I'm tired and don't feel like doing math right now, but it sounds like you're saying Amy and Dunn are mechanically confirmed scum if I'm Town? Assuming that both my interpretation and your numbers are accurate, I'll volunteer to be eliminated after Dwlee if our alignments are still in question, because that should be a full game solve, which is well worth one mislim.

[Radical Rat]

And here I was thinking we might get through the whole game with no replacements...

[Radical Rat]

*wait*
Does the voting analyzer thing apply to game 1 as well?

No. PR abilities are confined to the game in which the role exists

[Radical Rat]

Presubmission and partner submission of night actions are only some of the ways your alibi fails, and neither are the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that there's a checkbox every time you log in that says "Hide my online status this session" that prevents the most recent login time from updating and doesn't show you as an active user while you're here. There's absolutely nothing stopping you from checking that box, posting in the scum thread, and then unchecking it after the night ends.

I also see no reason why the people who questioned it to Jingle have to be scum. While I am not one of the people who did, because I don't see anything unethical or broken about this type of strategy and it only uses publicly available information, if I DID suspect it might have been breaking rules, I'd probably bring that up privately with the mod as either alignment rather than jumping straight to public accusations of cheating.

If you don't mind, I would like to see an example of you doing this as Town before though, since you say those examples exist. I don't think that means you CAN'T be scum, because if you have something you're known to do as Town, and it can easily be faked, then... You can fake it. But it WOULD mean it's not a valid reason to scumread you on its own.

[Radical Rat]

And then I'm just going to have to hard disagree with you on the meta points. You can do genuine scumhunting in one game, and use that to push mislims in another. The games aren't separate enough to have clearly defined separate meta tells between them, with exception of caught scum who are incentivized to just completely ignore whatever game they got caught in, which would create stark differences.

[Radical Rat]

In any case we have precious little time, and I believe we have a stronger consensus on House?

[Radical Rat]

Also, welcome aboard Titus!

Dwlee scumclaimed in Game 2, but we don't want to mislim them in Game 1, so we need to rush an elimination through in the 12 hours between Game 1's day starting and Game 2's day starting. My proposed eliminations are either House or mastina.

[Radical Rat]

The way I understand it though, correct me if I am wrong, is that every vote counts for all three games but nightkills are separated by game?

This is mostly correct, but shenanigans can arise when voting isn't open in all games simultaneously, or when people are dead in one game but not another. Or when we get roles that give extra votes, as is the case with the Demon Lord vote in Game 2.

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: House

[Radical Rat]

We have to lim in A before we vote dwlee out or he's double elimmed anyway and we just wasted a day.

We already did that, that's how House got eliminated. And as a result the games should be spread far enough apart that we won't have to worry about a double elimination again.

I think House's death puts us at Elo, which is very bad, but I think at this point it has to be mastina. We'll have plenty of time to work that out later though.

[Radical Rat]

Cheeky, what was your wagon result this time?

[Radical Rat]

Titus. (Shocker, right? I know, I'm a spiteful ass and all, but that's not specifically why in this particular case.)

Then what is specifically why? A50 was pretty unambiguously Town, and Titus just got here, so I don't know where you're coming from beyond the spiteful ass bit

[Radical Rat]

I didn't get one _-_

Could you double check that wasn't a mistake? My understanding is most actions still go through even if the slot dies, so I'd think you should have gotten a result unless something else interfered...

[Radical Rat]

Players will not receive action results for nights during which they die

My bad, I missed that bit. Unfortunate.

[Radical Rat]

Ah yes, I was scum for defending House before and now I am scum for having contributed to House's death.

Sure makes sense to me!

Initially, I thought extending your easily fakeable alibi to House was a potential indicator you were scum together, yes. However, that's clearly not the case now, so I guess it was either a failed pocket attempt, or simply made to look like an associative in case you flipped first.

But regardless of your intent dragging House into your "alibi," you did establish that he should have been cleared just as much as you were. So it doesn't really make sense for you to help push that elimination, unless you actually did understand that your "alibi" proves nothing, in which case you wouldn't have been using it to clear yourself

[Radical Rat]

Also, a bit late now, but I think we should have waited just a bit longer to eliminate Dwlee, which is why I didn't vote for them earlier. Ideally we'd have the games spread out as much as possible, but having ~22 hours should be enough I suppose

[Radical Rat]

I still think Cheeky has decent odds of flipping mafia in Game A.

T3 scumclaimed in B with that hammer on Ircher.

T3 mechanically cannot be scum, unless I'm scum as well. Since I am not, he's apparently just Town that made a very large mistake

[Radical Rat]

Also, a bit late now, but I think we should have waited just a bit longer to eliminate Dwlee, which is why I didn't vote for them earlier. Ideally we'd have the games spread out as much as possible, but having ~22 hours should be enough I suppose

Why should we have waited?

Just so we get a little more space between the games. Definitely shouldn't have waited a whole other phase or anything, just a few more hours.

[Radical Rat]

1: it did not escape my notice that you're focusing here and not on how the Amy Dunne night kill clears me.

And how exactly does it do that?

[Radical Rat]

What the fuck

I don't really know where to go from here. Massclaim maybe? Idk if there are even any PRs left for that to help, but I have no idea who scum is after a mastina townflip.

I'm still pretty confident in A50/Titus Town.
Lady Chloe seems very Town motivated.
I kinda just assumed Dwlee was telling the truth about being Town here, but I'm gonna be REAL pissed if they're not here.

So that leaves T3/Cheeky/Dunn, possibly swapping one for Dwlee.

But also clearly I haven't been reading this game very well so far, so I don't know.

[Radical Rat]

Why would scum think she'd die in both when none of the other kills have worked that way?

[Radical Rat]

I don't see any reason why you can't elaborate yet. Surely you telling us the nature of your investigation and who you targeted won't change whatever result you get from the mod, and it would make it a lot easier to decide whether to trust you

[Radical Rat]

I believe someone had said the RCE kill implicated T3, possibly as a frame. I don't remember what the reason for that speculation was though, and I don't think I agreed with it at the time

[Radical Rat]

Also worth noting that in Newbie 2073 he fakeclaimed Mason... As Town. So even if he's faking this I don't know if it necessarily means he's scum. But also there's a pretty small PoE left, so

[Radical Rat]

Meg was Tracker and RCE was JK, which has both protective and investigative utility. So that's a Lot of Town power if T3's telling the truth here...

[Radical Rat]

NRG is Normal Review Group btw. They're in charge of making sure Normal games are indeed Normal and properly balanced

[Radical Rat]

I'm waiting until I hear the full claim to give proper judgement, but I do have very serious doubts

[Radical Rat]

Meg was Tracker and RCE was JK, which has both protective and investigative utility. So that's a Lot of Town power if T3's telling the truth here...

Agreed. T3 is almost certainly fakeclaiming. The question is, for what purpose?

No. My role is fairly weak, in that it can only find one scum. Same goes for Meg's Tracker role, it can only find one scum. So that's 2 weak investigatives and a strong protective.
(This is assuming there is a scum rolecop. There definitely isn't a Town Rolecop as that would mean 3 town investigatives, which is very unlikely. So I'm assuming the Rolecop is a Mafia Rolecop.)

Tracker can potentially find ALL scum. If there's a rolecop, as your claim implies, then that gives reason to look at a slot closer. Same for any other potential scum PRs. In addition to having a very strong immediate guilty if the killer is tracked, I would Not consider Tracker a weak investigative.

[Radical Rat]

Regardless of that though... I think I do believe the claim, it's weak enough and weirdly specific to fake, but I wouldn't really consider the results even a soft inno. All we know is that they're not a specific member of the scumteam, if we take your role to mean a scum rolecop exists. So the team cannot be Dunn/Dwlee/Chloe, but it can still be any one or two of them.

[Radical Rat]

I'm VT

[Radical Rat]

Fuck.

Dunnstral, if you are Town, do NOT use Demon Lord until Game 1 is settled

[Radical Rat]

Well, we know that precisely one scum was on Dwlee's wagon

[Radical Rat]

Meg was eliminated because she made a very bad joke fakeclaim. Some people believed it, some people didn't but thought it was scummy anyway.
No kill N1, likely attributed to mastina who has claimed Bulletproof Survivor with a modified wincon that she only wins if there are two or less non-Town slots left alive at the end.
Cheeky claimed wagon analyzer, with a result that there were 4 alignment changes on Meg's wagon.
Dwlee claimed scum in response.
Cheeky's result is only possible if T3 and I are the same alignment, so T3 is hardcleared as Town.
Dunnstral has claimed to have the ability to control an extra vote, appearing on vote count as "Demon Lord"
Ircher gets mislimmed because T3 votes him with the intention of eliminating in Game 1, but wasn't paying enough attention.
Cheeky killed N2, her flip matches her claim.
Dwlee is eliminated correctly this time.
Chloe killed N3.
I make a "cheeky" claim about Dwlee's wagon, that I will elaborate on next post

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, so I was a Universal Backup, and I'm Cheeky now.

Dwlee wagon once again has 4 alignment changes. Before and after Demon Lord accounts for two, and mastina's hammer for three. So that's one change unaccounted for.

[Radical Rat]

Amy Dunne, Lady Chloe, Demon Lord, Dunnstral, T3, mastina

We know Chloe is Town because of the flip, and T3 is Town because of Cheeky's result, so one, but not both, of Amy/Dunnstral have to be scum.

[Radical Rat]

BUT before we start voting based on that, we need to get Game 1's elimination sorted out

[Radical Rat]

Because there's only one alignment change after Cheeky on Meg's wagon, which is the one between myself and Dwlee. T3 is before me, so in order for him to be scum, I must be as well, or there'd be another change. Since I know my own alignment, I know T3 must be Town as well. If you doubt my alignment, just wait for scum to nightkill me. Or they can put it off to make me look bad, in which case I'll just get more results to share, so. Their move.

[Radical Rat]

T3 is also Town. So it's Amy OR Dunn + House/T3/Alyssa

[Radical Rat]

T3 is also Town. So it's Amy OR Dunn + House/Alyssa

EBWOP

[Radical Rat]

I do agree we should focus on Game 1 for now.

I probably should have waited to claim until we had the day settled there, but I did not, so here we are.

I do not agree that Titus is scumclaiming in 1 by being distracted by the mechanical solve in 2. I think that's a fairly normal reaction to getting a bunch of new information.

[Radical Rat]

My results don't contradict Cheeky's. We analyzed different wagons with different compositions.

[Radical Rat]

My results don't contradict Cheeky's. We analyzed different wagons with different compositions.

Explain this, because it didn’t look that way to me?

Cheeky analyzed the Meg wagon. This prompted Dwlee to scumclaim because they knew they were caught. In addition, this confirmed that T3 cannot be scum without me being scum as well. Since I'm Town, T3 must be as well.

I analyzed the Dwlee wagon, which is where the you or Dunn thing comes from.

[Radical Rat]

As for B, Cheeky had either Dunn or House as same as Dwelee or did she have House as a clear? I’m still confused about that.

House was neither cleared nor guiltied. Assuming Dunnstral was telling the truth about the Demon Lord vote counting as unaligned, House could be either Town or Scum without affecting Cheeky's result. Dunnstral himself was not on the Meg wagon, so Cheeky's result gives no information on him directly.

[Radical Rat]

RR, what's your solve in A?

Either T3/Dunn/Cheeky or Dwlee/Dunn/Cheeky

Leaning towards the Dwlee side of things because T3's claim is just such a weird and specific one to fake. But I strongly townread both you and Chloe, so it has to be one of those teams.

[Radical Rat]

Oh also Ircher in the Game 2 hood brought up the point that Dwlee could have claimed prematurely in Game 2 so that they'd get a free townread in Game 1, which... Is exactly what happened.

[Radical Rat]

RR, what's your solve in A?

Either T3/Dunn/Cheeky or Dwlee/Dunn/Cheeky

Leaning towards the Dwlee side of things because T3's claim is just such a weird and specific one to fake. But I strongly townread both you and Chloe, so it has to be one of those teams.

Why do you TR me?

Inherited from A50 mostly, but you haven't done anything scummy since your replace in.

[Radical Rat]

Ftr I believe that there is pretty strong odds that RR is scum in A based on the timing that he outed this information

Yeah, RR why did you wait until now to claim?

Son you agree that it’s likely Dunn/RR/T3 then?

Because if I claimed before I had a result I would have been murdered.

The bigger issue is that my claiming has created a significant distraction from Game 1, so I should have waited until we eliminated someone there. But I got excited with having a meaningful result and so I didn't. I don't have a better explanation than that.

[Radical Rat]

RR, what's your solve in A?

Either T3/Dunn/Cheeky or Dwlee/Dunn/Cheeky

Leaning towards the Dwlee side of things because T3's claim is just such a weird and specific one to fake. But I strongly townread both you and Chloe, so it has to be one of those teams.

Why do you TR me?

Inherited from A50 mostly, but you haven't done anything scummy since your replace in.

Why were you townreading A50?

Right from the start he was being active and working to solve all three games, easily carrying Game 3 in particular. He also went as far as to refrain from his usual monkey business in the interest of keeping a confusing setup from being even more confusing. Scum!A50 I'd imagine wouldn't have any qualms about creating additional confusion, and would just play as normal.

Oh also Ircher in the Game 2 hood brought up the point that Dwlee could have claimed prematurely in Game 2 so that they'd get a free townread in Game 1, which... Is exactly what happened.

I kinda like Dwlee's response to T3's claim. I have more experience with T3 lying than you do.

I could go for Dunn Cheeky though.

Comments on Amy/Dunn and Alyssa/House?

I haven't decided between Amy and Dunn yet. I think the flips/claims so far implicate Dunn more than Amy, but Amy's play here is concerning. IF it's Dunn though, I think House is his buddy, because otherwise there'd be no reason for him to have claimed Demon Lord.

[Radical Rat]

@Dunnstral

When you're present next, I would like you to claim your Game 2 flavor please

[Radical Rat]

Well, I just don't see any reason to be this resistant to my claim or results. It'd be incredibly silly of me to attempt this as scum, and further if you're Town, you have a chance to become mechanically confirmed. Were I Town in your position, I'd be ecstatic about this.

And the plan the whole time has been to eliminate in Game 1 FIRST, so you're in no danger of not getting a say there, at least for this day phase.

[Radical Rat]

Has everyone claimed in A

I think Chloe and Dunn haven't yet

[Radical Rat]

Quote the post where she said that. Because Dunn wasn't even on the wagon Cheeky analyzed, as I've already said.

[Radical Rat]

Dunnstral ALSO claimed that he asked Jingle and the Demon Lord vote counts as unaligned, which negates all that.

[Radical Rat]

@CheekyTeeky

Demon Lord doesn't have an alignment

So it's not necessarily House

[Radical Rat]

The Demon Lord vote itself is unaligned.

The Demon Lord is not a player in the game, so it makes since that wouldn't have an alignment, regardless of what Dunn is.

[Radical Rat]

I just got off work, I'll post more detailed responses when I get home, but before that some quick corrections:

Demon Lord, per Dunnstral's claim, is NOT holding the previous alignment as Titus said. Town > DL > Scum would be two changes. This makes sense because it's not actually a player, and thus is neither Town nor Scum, regardless of which faction has control over it. It is still possible Dunnstral just straight lied about that, but so far nothing has contradicted it.

Also, I use They/Them pronouns please. It's not a huge deal so I don't normally go out of my way to correct it, but it's been happening a lot from several people lately and it is starting to bother me. Thank you for your consideration.

[Radical Rat]

Dunnstral ALSO claimed that he asked Jingle and the Demon Lord vote counts as unaligned, which negates all that.

Where? I just ISO’d him and couldn’t find that post.

@CheekyTeeky

Demon Lord doesn't have an alignment

So it's not necessarily House

[Radical Rat]

Ok. RR explain to me the Demon Lord and how it implicates House in B if Dunn is town?

Demon Lord is (or was) an anonymous extra vote controlled by Dunnstral. According to Dunn, this vote is unaligned, so we can expect an alignment change to count on either side of it in the wagon.

It does not necessarily implicate House if Dunn is Town, but rather if Dunn isn't lying about Demon Lord being unaligned, House is the only other possible scum on Meg's wagon. It doesn't necessarily mean he IS scum, just that he isn't confirmed Town.

[Radical Rat]

Why am I being paired with Dunn and not with House/Alyssa/RR/T3? I would seriously love someone to explain this?

I received a result that there were four alignment changes on Dwlee's wagon.

Dwlee's wagon was:
Amy Dunne,

Lady Chloe

,

Demon Lord

, Dunnstral,

T3

,

mastina

Demon Lord has one change before, and one change after, no matter the alignment of the surrounding votes. LC > DL and DL > Dunnstral makes two.
mastina would be similar as 3P, but she was the hammer so there is no vote after her. T3 > mastina makes three.

So where is the fourth change? It can only be between Amy and Chloe, which can only happen if Amy isn't Town, OR between Dunn and T3, which could happen if either were scum BUT since we already know T3 is Town because of Cheeky's result, it's really only possible if Dunnstral is scum. HOWEVER it cannot be both, because then I would have received a five result instead of four.

[Radical Rat]

RR you literally argued that me being town in one game would allow me to be in my town meta in solving all 3 games. You said this multiple times in fact.

So why the clear on A50 for the very thing that you tried to go out of your way to say wasn't town for me?

Because A50 didn't make up alibis that aren't actually alibis, and while I only have the one game experience with him personally, everyone in AI UPick 2 said he pulls similar shenanigans regardless of alignment.

In this game he made a conscious effort to NOT pull such shenanigans because it would be too confusing in an already overcomplicated setup. If he were scum in even one game, I'd imagine he would just go ahead and do his monkey business, because it's not out of line for Town!A50, and he could benefit from the chaos as scum, while still mostly playing the Town games as he does any other.

[Radical Rat]

Do we have any basis for Dunnstral's extra vote being unaligned other than him saying that he messaged the mod?

Because that is exactly the type of role I would expect scum to have to fuck with Cheeky's role

Nope! We have only his word, which actually kinda contradicts Cheekys. Which is among the reasons why I think that he's scum in G2/B.

How does it contradict Cheeky? Cheeky said Demon Lord counts for her analysis, but didn't say which alignment it counts as, at least as far as I recall

[Radical Rat]

How?

[Radical Rat]

I did NOT say it isn't considered in the result. I said it doesn't have an alignment.

Please read literally any of my posts where I talk about the results and you'll notice that I am in fact counting the Demon Lord.

[Radical Rat]

Hey Titus, Who are the scum in A? We’re at freaking elo in A, so why are you are you paying attention almost exclusively to B when one wrong vote could hand scum the game?

It's a generic scum tell.

She's focused on solving B because she doesn't HAVE to solve A.

Well you’d think she’d be interested in in both but especially A. Once RR claimed ub, both

them

anf Titus have mainly been focused on B. Meanwhile me, Chloe and Mastina are primarily concerned with A. Actually Chloe is with both. However me and Mastina are dead in A, so that might partially account for that.

I am very much concerned about A. However, while we wait on claims nothing's really happening there. I've already claimed, I've given my thoughts on the potential solves, but there's not really anything else to say there unless you have a specific question.

Meanwhile there has been a lot of confusion and specific questions in B. It's not that I don't care about A, and I have consistently said we need to settle A before we move on to voting in B. It's just that B actually has active conversations happening.

[Radical Rat]

Vote Count Normal.1.08

Dunnstral (E-1):

RCEnigma, Ircher, Lady Chloe, CheekyTeeky, T3, Amy Dunne

MegAzumarill (E-4):

Dwlee99, mastina, House,

Radical Rat (E-5):

MegAzumarill, Almost50,

RCEnigma (E-7):

T3 (E-7):

House (E-7):

Amy Dunne (E-7):

Almost50 (E-7):

mastina (E-7):

Dwlee99 (E-7):

CheekyTeeky (E-7):

Lady Chloe (E-7):

Ircher (E-7):

No Elim (0):

Not Voting (2):

Dunnstral, Everyone Else

With 13 alive, it takes

7

to murder/death/kill or

7

to choose not to.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2021-12-14 22:00:00).

Vote Count Mini Theme.1.08

Dunnstral (E-1):

RCEnigma, Ircher, Lady Chloe, CheekyTeeky, T3, Amy Dunne

MegAzumarill (E-3):

Dwlee99,

Demon Lord

, mastina, House,

Radical Rat (E-5):

MegAzumarill, Almost50,

RCEnigma (E-7):

T3 (E-7):

House (E-7):

Amy Dunne (E-7):

Almost50 (E-7):

mastina (E-7):

Dwlee99 (E-7):

CheekyTeeky (E-7):

Lady Chloe (E-7):

Ircher (E-7):

No Elim (0):

Not Voting (2):

Dunnstral, Everyone Else

With 13 alive, it takes

7

to murder/death/kill or

7

to choose not to.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2021-12-10 22:00:00).

Vote Count Open.2.00

Amy Dunne (E-5):

mastina (E-5):

Dwlee99(E-5):

Dunnstral(E-5):

CheekyTeeky(E-5):

Lady Chloe(E-5):

Ircher(E-5):

T3(E-5):

No Elim (0):

Not Voting (8):

Everyone Else

With 8 alive, it takes

5

to murder/death/kill or

4

to choose not to.

@mod, can we get an updated VC please?

Sorry, I passed out early last night and have spent the morning sick.

There has been a hammer on Dunn in the open

Ircher->Chloe->Cheeky->Dwlee->T3

Dunn flips VT.

Votes reset for game three. I’ll edit this into a proper VC format as soon as I am able, but it may be a few hours.

Note: VC for Open not updated in this post, will update soon.

BEHOLD!
Demon Lord not being first in the list, while Cheeky was still alive.

Try again Dunn

[Radical Rat]

Hey Titus, Who are the scum in A? We’re at freaking elo in A, so why are you are you paying attention almost exclusively to B when one wrong vote could hand scum the game?

It's a generic scum tell.

She's focused on solving B because she doesn't HAVE to solve A.

Well you’d think she’d be interested in in both but especially A. Once RR claimed ub, both

them

anf Titus have mainly been focused on B. Meanwhile me, Chloe and Mastina are primarily concerned with A. Actually Chloe is with both. However me and Mastina are dead in A, so that might partially account for that.

I am very much concerned about A. However, while we wait on claims nothing's really happening there. I've already claimed, I've given my thoughts on the potential solves, but there's not really anything else to say there unless you have a specific question.

Meanwhile there has been a lot of confusion and specific questions in B. It's not that I don't care about A, and I have consistently said we need to settle A before we move on to voting in B. It's just that B actually has active conversations happening.

And?

Yout solve in A is what exactly? Tell me who are the scum in A.

Either T3/Dunn/Cheeky or Dwlee/Dunn/Cheeky. Leaning towards Dwlee because of T3's claim

[Radical Rat]

I did NOT say it isn't considered in the result. I said it doesn't have an alignment.

Please read literally any of my posts where I talk about the results and you'll notice that I am in fact counting the Demon Lord.

Then your analysis makes very little sense to me and if I say I still don’t understand how you have me/Dunn and Alyssa/House linked, you will once again claim to find that conerning or whatever. Whenever ANYONE links me up with another player in any game ever, when that linking makes zero sense to me, I always auto mistrust it. Why? because I know I’m flipping town but both you and Titus are arguing that despite me totally not understanding any of this, I should be confisvumming Dunn based on this. I have independent reasons to think he could possibly be scum in either or both games but this 100% isn’t fucking it, so for anyone to argue the contrary is clearly misconstruing my posting. I can only solvr based on what I understand, which clearly isn’t this, so you and Titus can please stop putting words in my mouth. Please and thank you.

You > Chloe > Demon Lord > Dunnstral > T3 > mastina is a sequence with four alignment changes. Demon Lord is neither Town nor Scum on its own, so there will be one change before and one change after no matter what. mastina is third party, so the same applies, but as the hammer vote no one voted after her, so only one change there.

You <?> Chloe <1> Demon Lord <2> Dunnstral <?> T3 <3> mastina.

T3 is mechanically confirmed Town as long as I'm Town. Chloe already flipped Town. Both potential changes are from an unknown player to a Town slot. So either you or Dunnstral MUST be an alignment that isn't Town. But you can't BOTH be, because that would be too many changes.

If you still don't understand it, then I'm sorry but I don't know how else to explain it.

[Radical Rat]

I think RR is lying though. The DL vote went from automatically being the first vote on the wagon regardless of vote time to being in the middle of the pack like a normal vote. This happened after Cheeky died. Or maybe the mod is just inconsistent?

Also just. Putting aside for a moment that this is just factually incorrect...

Why the hell would Cheeky being alive affect how YOUR role works?

[Radical Rat]

I'm okay eliminating Dunnstral, but we need to do it in an order that maximizes information from my result, since votes from most people are going to count in both games.

T3 needs to be the next to vote

[Radical Rat]

Why isn't it valid? What specific problem do you have with it?

[Radical Rat]

I'm not scum, but I AM capable of being wrong. If you see something I don't, please say so.

[Radical Rat]

Alright then, why do you think Dunn is likely my partner? Why does Scum!Rat try to set up an elaborate fakeclaim that forces a 1v1 between my partner and a Townie, guaranteeing Dunn's death either this phase or the next?

[Radical Rat]

@mastina

I know you said you'll explain further later, But don't you think that's a pretty disproportionate amount of power if T3's meant to function as a regular cop? Also if scum has multiple rolecops, I'm pretty sure they would have found and killed T3 by now, because that's a LOT of rolecopping going on

[Radical Rat]

Hey Titus, Who are the scum in A? We’re at freaking elo in A, so why are you are you paying attention almost exclusively to B when one wrong vote could hand scum the game?

It's a generic scum tell.

She's focused on solving B because she doesn't HAVE to solve A.

Well you’d think she’d be interested in in both but especially A. Once RR claimed ub, both

them

anf Titus have mainly been focused on B. Meanwhile me, Chloe and Mastina are primarily concerned with A. Actually Chloe is with both. However me and Mastina are dead in A, so that might partially account for that.

I am very much concerned about A. However, while we wait on claims nothing's really happening there. I've already claimed, I've given my thoughts on the potential solves, but there's not really anything else to say there unless you have a specific question.

Meanwhile there has been a lot of confusion and specific questions in B. It's not that I don't care about A, and I have consistently said we need to settle A before we move on to voting in B. It's just that B actually has active conversations happening.

And?

Yout solve in A is what exactly? Tell me who are the scum in A.

Either T3/Dunn/Cheeky or Dwlee/Dunn/Cheeky. Leaning towards Dwlee because of T3's claim

Is there anyone alive in A other than of course Cheeky who isn’t pushing Cheeky? Maybe not Dunn but if pretty much everyone in A has Cheeky in their solve and -

even more importantly

, she really isn’t pushing anyone - when she isn’t doing anything remotely scummy - what does that tell you?

Cheeky isn’t aligned with anyone.

I don't really scumread her on her own either, but I don't think Dwlee/T3 is a universe that exists, and out of Titus/Chloe/Cheeky, she's the weakest townread.

So, I know you think I'm scum right now, but supposing Jingle descends from Mod Heaven and informs you directly that I'm Town, who do you think is scum?

[Radical Rat]

I have nothing to contribute and I want to vote Dunn.

I believe T3's claim because this is the first time I've ever heard of a specific Rolecop Finder, and it just seems like an incredibly weird thing for a scum claim with no real direct benefit since Not Rolecop doesn't mean anything on alignment.

If it were fake, I'd expect a slightly stronger inno, or perhaps a fake guilty to easily win Elo.


And yeah, you're right that Cheeky has no obvious associatives with anyone. I don't have a refutation there other than neither does anyone else.

[Radical Rat]

That was not the post I intended to quote there. Phoneposting...

[Radical Rat]

Anyway, I need to go to work now.

Dunnstral is the best elimination in both games, but T3 needs to be the next vote for Game 2 wagon purposes. I suppose if Cheeky, Chloe, or Dwlee want to vote as well, they can, but no one alive in Game 2 except T3, please and thank you.

[Radical Rat]

As of right now, Ircher has said nothing on the topic.

I have my own opinions, but it's not really worth arguing. You have more experience and data than I do, and after your flip I know you're being genuine, so while I don't understand how a lot of that could possibly be balanced, I'll defer to your judgement.

Which makes my final solve Dwlee/Dunn/Cheeky. Preferred elimination right now is Dunn because I think he's the most likely scum in Game 2, and I don't want another opportunistic quickhammer happening there.

However, either T3 or one of the dead players in Game 2 needs to be the next one to vote, as I've said before. I know I probably die tonight anyway, but just in case scum makes the mistake of letting me live, I want to have this wagon structured properly

[Radical Rat]

Which makes my final solve Dwlee/Dunn/Cheeky. Preferred elimination right now is Dunn because I think he's the most likely scum in Game 2, and I don't want another opportunistic quickhammer happening there.

Actually it turns out I'm an idiot and forgot Dwlee and Cheeky were both already dead. So I guess I don't really have a huge preference here, though Dunn is still more convenient for not having to build the Game 2 wagon from scratch.

[Radical Rat]

Ircher has (mostly) agreed with mastina regarding T3's claim, but points out that Flavor Leaf reviewed this game and is apparently less strict on balancing than other reviewers, and so he wouldn't be surprised if it's just three goons and no Rolecop on the scumteam.

[Radical Rat]

Mostly a prodge while I wait on either T3 or a dead slot to vote, but I do think the lack of quickhammer so far means Titus and Dunnstral can't both be Town, or we'd have already lost. I don't think anyone is, but if you're townreading them both, please reconsider that.

[Radical Rat]

Mostly a prodge while I wait on either T3 or a dead slot to vote, but I do think the lack of quickhammer so far means Titus and Dunnstral can't both be Town, or we'd have already lost. I don't think anyone is, but if you're townreading them both, please reconsider that.

Do you not have an opinion beyond both can’t be town? Which one of them do you think is town and which one scum?

Dead slots can’t vote.

I thought I'd already made it clear that I scumread Dunnstral and townread Titus.

And I meant dead slots in Game 2 that are alive in Game 1.

[Radical Rat]

RR you literally argued that me being town in one game would allow me to be in my town meta in solving all 3 games. You said this multiple times in fact.

So why the clear on A50 for the very thing that you tried to go out of your way to say wasn't town for me?

Because A50 didn't make up alibis that aren't actually alibis, and while I only have the one game experience with him personally, everyone in AI UPick 2 said he pulls similar shenanigans regardless of alignment.

In this game he made a conscious effort to NOT pull such shenanigans because it would be too confusing in an already overcomplicated setup. If he were scum in even one game, I'd imagine he would just go ahead and do his monkey business, because it's not out of line for Town!A50, and he could benefit from the chaos as scum, while still mostly playing the Town games as he does any other.

It apparently DID escape your notice that I HAVE answered that

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Radical Rat]

And that's Game 1!

Had me worried for a bit there, but GG everyone.

[Radical Rat]

UNVOTE: as well, because T3 needs to be next on the wagon in Game 2.

Speaking of Game 2, Titus and Cheeky can now back up my claim because I mentioned it in the scum PT before Cheeky even died. Further, because I did that and scum didn't kill me last Night, Titus should be pretty much confirmed Town as well.

[Radical Rat]

My understanding is that you can still post until Jingle officially closes Game 1, then you're gone for good.

[Radical Rat]

Oh, also, RCE kill was because he absolutely did soft PR, but apparently only A50 noticed.

[Radical Rat]

A50 youre putting me between a rock and a hard place. I literally cannot defend without hurting town inside and outside of the open setup. If I go down here I'd look at my votes as likely red in more than 1 setup.

If he was vanilla all around, there'd be no issue here, which A50 noticed and suggested the kill for.

[Radical Rat]

Oh, also, RCE kill was because he absolutely did soft PR, but apparently only A50 noticed.

A50 youre putting me between a rock and a hard place. I literally cannot defend without hurting town inside and outside of the open setup. If I go down here I'd look at my votes as likely red in more than 1 setup.

If he was vanilla all around, there'd be no issue here, which A50 noticed and suggested the kill for.

So why did I die then? I’m also not going to listen to flipped scum, sorry.

Cheeky thought you dying implicated Lady/House, and I figured since you were hard defending me it'd make it look like it wasn't me.

[Radical Rat]

Alright, so here is my preference for how Game 2 goes now.

Dunnstral is the best elimination choice here. Between him and Amy, I think he's much more likely to flip red, and Demon Lord is not only a very scary ability for scum to have, it messes with my wagon results. And I know I'm more than likely dead tonight, but on the off chance scum keeps me alive to frame me, I'd like to have as useful results as possible.

To that end, the vote order on Dunn should look like this:
mastina > Titus > T3 > House OR Alyssa > Amy

	1 change	2 changes	3 changes	4 changes
Dunnstral Scum	Wagon Town	Titus Scum	House/Alyssa Scum*	Titus AND House/Alyssa Scum*
Dunnstral Town	Impossible	Amy Scum	Titus Scum AND (Amy AND House/Alyssa Scum* OR Amy Scum)	Titus AND House/Alyssa Scum*

*Applies to whichever of House/Alyssa voted in the wagon

This does assume that Dunnstral was both truthful and accurate when claiming Demon Lord is unaligned, but structuring the wagon in this way gives us at least one confirmed scum to eliminate the following day, if I get to share my result.

If I die, I die, but if I live the game is pretty much solved.

[Radical Rat]

My continued life is very strong evidence that A50/Titus are Town here.

I claimed UB in the Game 1 scum thread fairly early on. While obviously they couldn't have fully explained their reasoning, I would expect a scum Titus/A50 to insist on killing me before I got any results.

[Radical Rat]

We have to work with the information we already have, not fish for new information in a way that obviously isn't going to work.

The information we already have is that either you or Amy must be scum. While I understand that I am overwhelmingly likely to die and not get any more results, structuring the wagon in this way does nothing to contradict existing info, and I'd like to at least TRY to squeeze more out of my role while it lasts.

Would you be opposed to a similarly structured wagon on Amy?

[Radical Rat]

My continued life is very strong evidence that A50/Titus are Town here.

I claimed UB in the Game 1 scum thread fairly early on. While obviously they couldn't have fully explained their reasoning, I would expect a scum Titus/A50 to insist on killing me before I got any results.

Remind me... what useful results have you gotten?

Four alignment changes on the Dwlee wagon. Which is only possible if exactly one of Dunn/Amy is scum.

[Radical Rat]

What's the vote structure that we need again?

mastina > Titus > T3 > House OR Alyssa > Amy

[Radical Rat]

In what world does a town investigative claim without useful information?

Was he at E-1 when he claimed?

I don't trust his cock and bull story.

I kinda think having a guaranteed scum 1v1 is useful information.

[Radical Rat]

My continued life is very strong evidence that A50/Titus are Town here.

I claimed UB in the Game 1 scum thread fairly early on. While obviously they couldn't have fully explained their reasoning, I would expect a scum Titus/A50 to insist on killing me before I got any results.

Remind me... what useful results have you gotten?

Four alignment changes on the Dwlee wagon. Which is only possible if exactly one of Dunn/Amy is scum.

The fuck you mean, "alignment changes"?

The way Cheeky's (and now my) role works is that we pick a wagon that existed at the end of the previous day and receive a result with how many times a vote was of a different alignment than the previous vote.

Town > Town > Scum would be 1, Town > Scum > Town would be 2, and so forth.

Cheeky checked the wagon on Meg, and received a result of 4.
She died N2, so no result there, but I inherit her role.
I checked the Dwlee wagon, and received a result of 4.

Given Cheeky's result, and all the other claims in play, my result is only possible if exactly one of Dunn/Amy is scum.

[Radical Rat]

BTW Titus is wrong on T3/RR.

RR can be scum even with T3 town.

This is correct. I didn't want to point it out in case scum ALSO thought the way Titus did, but yeah if I'm Town T3 has to be, and if T3 is scum I have to be, but it's at least mechanically possible that T3 is Town and I'm Scum. It's just not actually the case here.

[Radical Rat]

And yet, we didn't actually find T3 until the last night, in spite of not even needing to use our PRs on the first two.

[Radical Rat]

Because who else is left?

[Radical Rat]

Why are you using Demon Lord AT ALL here?

[Radical Rat]

@mastina, I'm not arguing this with you right now. We have Game B to solve.

I mean, I'm already voting Dunn.

He flips town, scum can ONLY include RR and either House or T3.

In the far, far, far more likely scenario when he flips scum, the last scum can only be v1/2 of {House, RR}.

So game two is already solved, we just need to have the votes placed in their proper order.

If Dunn flips Town, it's Amy and House OR Alyssa.
I haven't done the math to know if it's safe to eliminate me first in that case, but I'm probably dead tonight anyway, so I guess it'll all get cleared up then

[Radical Rat]

@RR, Extremely dumb question.

Does your sensor need to be on a hammered wagon?

Wouldn't work the way you want it anyway, at least not without 100% participation from every living slot.

It does Not have to be the hammered wagon, but it Does have to be a wagon that exists at end of day, so I couldn't just pick the pre-hammer VC.

[Radical Rat]

Amy needs to hammer Dunn

Why not Alyssa or RR?

By having you end the wagon, my result, if I get one, should double confirm you as Town, which also confirms that the Demon Lord vote does function as Dunn claims it does.
Alyssa or I could hammer if you refuse to, but then if Dunn flips scum, there's uncertainty as to whether his description of DL was accurate, and that uncertainty could be used to push an elimination on you.

[Radical Rat]

@mod

Now that both Cheeky and Dunn's role PMs are public knowledge, could you tell us what alignment Demon Lord counted as for wagon analysis?

I know the town flip means Dunn probably wasn't lying, but proper confirmation is nice.

[Radical Rat]

Two changes, which does indeed confirm Amy to be Scum

[Radical Rat]

And Titus is confirmed Town as well, which is good because I was actually getting a bit paranoid there

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Amy Dunne

Next vote should be House, followed by Titus, followed by Alyssa preferably. mastina is not allowed to vote.

Though we can also take time to discuss further first of course.

[Radical Rat]

Titus, I won't make the decision to claim for you, but I'm pretty sure we're at autowin now if you do.

[Radical Rat]

I mean, yes, but also now Titus is conftown instead of just widely townread.

I'd intended for Dunn to flip scum (obviously), in which case we'd have House confirmed one way or the other as well, but the townflip kinda messed that up.

[Radical Rat]

RR knows that game ends with my flip, so if you guys want

them

to win both A and B, definitely vote me.

I find this amusing because this actually winds up being true regardless of my alignment.

If I were Scum, voting you would make me win both games of course.
But also as Town, voting you makes the game nearly impossible to lose, so I would indeed win both A and B anyway.

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: RadicalRat

I don't buy the story.

Like scum is going to just let an outed investigative claim live AND get results?

Nah fam.

Killing me would have actually been the worst move for scum to make. Which is partially why I was so presumptive about getting results and structuring the wagon.

T3's confirmation was contingent on me being Town, so my flip solidifies that.
Further, we'd already established that my claim creates an Amy vs. Dunn 1v1, so if I flip Town, there should be no opposition to eliminating Amy.
People were already skeptical of my claim, and Dunn's townflip is obviously not a great look, so mislimming me is viable.

[Radical Rat]

Why didn't RR suggest it? Radical Rat is a mechanics-oriented player, after all, and the mechanical advantages of eliminating a guaranteed not-town slot shouldn't have escaped them.

Because the nature of your role and circumstances of your claim make it pretty apparent that you aren't lying.

Meanwhile, I was very confident on Dunn flipping scum, so yeah I thought it would be better to eliminate the actual scum slot instead of the 3P with a mechanical incentive to townside who has a remote chance of lying.

[Radical Rat]

@Amy/RR

Who is town in Alyssa/House?

As of right now I would guess House.

[Radical Rat]

Why didn't RR suggest it? Radical Rat is a mechanics-oriented player, after all, and the mechanical advantages of eliminating a guaranteed not-town slot shouldn't have escaped them.

Because the nature of your role and circumstances of your claim make it pretty apparent that you aren't lying.

Meanwhile, I was very confident on Dunn flipping scum, so yeah I thought it would be better to eliminate the actual scum slot instead of the 3P with a mechanical incentive to townside who has a remote chance of lying.

Why are you supposing mastina is town, knowing what you know? Amy/mastina is a possible team fypov no?

It is, but mastina softed incredibly early, and hardclaimed not much later, and I wouldn't expect scum to lock themselves into a claim so early on, especially a claim that has a solid chance of just getting themselves eliminated anyway.

Plus, there's the fact that her existence as 3P is a nerf to the wagon analysis, which is honestly still too strong as-is.

[Radical Rat]

We should be massclaiming imo but my claim is still best hidden, so I'm not sure what to do about that.

At this point, I don't think scum can really do anything about you regardless, unless I'm missing something here.

[Radical Rat]

mastina, your argument is that Titus being alive makes me look Town, which means I'm Scum doing it for towncred? Am I reading that correctly?

[Radical Rat]

If I could solve mastina confidently, I'd go House.

If I could solve RR, I'd go Amy. I'm not sure though. RR seems a bit too confident in my failsafe.

It's possible I misinterpreted part of your claim, but I can't really verify that without access to the scum PT, unless you decide to claim publicly.

I suppose I could try to ask Jingle about it, but I don't really see that being helpful for obvious reasons.

[Radical Rat]

Dwlee is spamming the neighborhood

Notably he's spamming the neighborhood immediately after Dunnstral asserted that Amy is scum and mastina should vote, if that means anything.

And I do think mastina voting is sub-optimal... But it does occur to me that the alternative is the other scum participating in guaranteeing their own defeat, so it may not be avoidable.

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, we're NOT eliminating House today.

Regardless of whether he's scum, Amy is mechanically confirmed and we're not risking passing that up. And if you think I'm lying there, then I should be pretty clearly scum instead.

House doesn't have anything except him being House, and not being explicitly confirmed Town.

[Radical Rat]

Also there's no point in keeping anything secret in the PT. Dwlee is in there, so we can assume scum already knows everything

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, that's how Jingle handles PTs in general. An exception that never applied was in the Game 1 scumthread, because Normal guidelines

[Radical Rat]

My argument is that Titus being alive is something you believe will make you look town.

I mean, not really? Killing Titus would definitely have made me look worse, but only to Titus, who would have been dead, and doesn't have PT access to my knowledge. Keeping her alive I don't see being indicative either way. A scumteam not including me has no real reason to kill her over either me or T3, and a scumteam that does include me is incentivized to keep her alive for the pocket, so I don't think she dies either way here

[Radical Rat]

Dead mafia members may continue to post in the mafia thread after their demise (but are not required to do so).

@Alyssa

[Radical Rat]

Is there any particular reason we're not doing a no elim?

I have a failsafe in case we eliminate wrong. It's less likely in a no elim.

That makes no sense.

No elim IS a failsafe.

If the night kill is stopped for whatever reason (the only way a failsafe can exist in the event of a mislim), it would buy us another day to no elim & provide whatever information the failed kill affords us.

Say we did no lim.
Scum won't kill me, because then Amy is even more confscum than she already is, and I'm the most viable mislim they have.

So then we're in the exact same situation again, 1v1 with me and Amy, where if you decide wrong we lose, except now without either Titus or one of you/Alyssa. Probably Titus because that avoids giving us new information.

One benefit here is that if I'm allowed to check the no lim wagon (which I will verify shortly), I should get a result that confirms either you or Alyssa, because if scum were capable of blocking me they would have done so last night, but that's still contingent on sorting me one way or the other.

You're just kicking the can down the road, and sacrificing a Townie in the process

[Radical Rat]

I agree with RR, he’s obvscum and I not only know this but my entire voting history proves that I can’t be aligned with anyone.
I voted out RCE in game C. Also every player in this game has pushed me at one point or another.

Mastina did for much of the game and she already explained House. Now recently, both Alyssa and House have positioned me as possible scum. Unless anyone seriously think my interactions with Titus yesterday were scum theatre, I’m clear.

This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that RR is lying. Because it proves I had an anti tmi on RCE!town in game C.

So, associatives with House don’t make sense.
I never vote RCE in game C here if he’s my buddy, because I would obviously already know he was town in game C.

Mastina has been pushing me for much of the game and the way Titus strongarmed me yesterday makes zero sense if we’re SvS.


So who is my fucking buddy RR? There isn’t one.

You being scum in 2 with RCE in no way guarantees him to have been Town in 3, so that means absolutely nothing.

[Radical Rat]

I agree with RR, he’s obvscum and I not only know this but my entire voting history proves that I can’t be aligned with anyone.
I voted out RCE in game C. Also every player in this game has pushed me at one point or another.

Mastina did for much of the game and she already explained House. Now recently, both Alyssa and House have positioned me as possible scum. Unless anyone seriously think my interactions with Titus yesterday were scum theatre, I’m clear.

This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that RR is lying. Because it proves I had an anti tmi on RCE!town in game C.

So, associatives with House don’t make sense.
I never vote RCE in game C here if he’s my buddy, because I would obviously already know he was town in game C.

Mastina has been pushing me for much of the game and the way Titus strongarmed me yesterday makes zero sense if we’re SvS.


So who is my fucking buddy RR? There isn’t one.

You being scum in 2 with RCE in no way guarantees him to have been Town in 3, so that means absolutely nothing.

You’re misconstruing what I said. What I actually did say that I can’t be scum with RCE in B because I had an anti tmi on him in C.

Which just doesn't follow. Alignment in any one game doesn't directly affect the others, and as we've demonstrated quite thoroughly here, killing/eliminating in one game does not automatically kill in the others, so.... What's your point?

[Radical Rat]

I never vote RCE in game C here if he’s my buddy, because I would obviously already know he was town in game C.

Is this not what you're talking about with the anti tmi thing?

[Radical Rat]

Because RCE's alignment In C has absolutely nothing to do with you being buddies here?

[Radical Rat]

You said you wouldn't have voted RCE because you would have known he was Town by being buddies here, did you not?

But being buddies with him doesn't tell you anything about his alignment in either of the other games, so the anti tmi doesn't apply

[Radical Rat]

Okay. How would being buddies here tell you he was Town in 3?

[Radical Rat]

Okay. How would being buddies here tell you he was Town in 3?

I’m assuming that if he were scum in B, he would have found some way of letting his buddies know. I can’t explain how because I don’t even know if he’s your buddy or not yet. My point is. I obviously had no way of knowing because I’m town in B.

Do you think that if he were scum in multiple games he would tell his partners that? Because I'd expect him to tell all of his scumteams that he was Town in the other games, and I would also expect his potential partners to not take such a statement at face value. Which is why this whole thing means nothing, you could still independently scumread him and vote him without affecting this game at all.

[Radical Rat]

Okay. How would being buddies here tell you he was Town in 3?

I already answered that.

You’ve already fucking won. Your fake bs analysis fooled everyone, so gg you deserve it and whomever you’re buddy is. If Mastina wants to gamethrow, fucking vote me.

I am not scum. I am not aligned with fucking anyone but hey, let’s fucking hand you a second scum victory. I don’t give a shit.

You didn't though.
You said he would have "found a way to let [you] know," which he would probably try to do regardless of his actual alignment, because convincing people you're Town is how you play the game?

I mean you and I both already know you're scum grasping at straws here, but even so, you could at least make an actual point here...

[Radical Rat]

How about the fact that she blatantly and unambiguously breadcrumbed killstopper yesterday? That seems like a fairly damn strong incentive for scum to kill her, on top of how she was being treated as basically cleared.

Where was this?
I didn't think she said anything regarding her role until the night had ended, and I didn't see it from skimming her ISO

[Radical Rat]

I'm not voting House.

We literally have a mechanical guilty here, and I cannot comprehend how ignoring that is even on the table. I understand doubting me and voting me as a result, because I am lie about this as Town, but just.... Voting someone else entirely while there's a hard guilty that exists?

[Radical Rat]

I'm not voting House.

We literally have a mechanical guilty here, and I cannot comprehend how ignoring that is even on the table. I understand doubting me and voting me as a result, because I am lie about this as Town, but just.... Voting someone else entirely while there's a hard guilty that exists?

You can keep saying this until hell freezes over, it’s still doesn’t change the fact that it’s straight up bs.

I know RR is lying scum, so it would be gamethrowing for me to vote anywhere else.

I find this to be mildly amusing/ironic

[Radical Rat]

The funny part is that immediately after asserting my 1v1 on you is bullshit, you then effectively say the same thing.

[Radical Rat]

Tell me, RR: who, knowing Titus is breadcrumbing killstopper, has the most incentive to keep her alive?

Well, for one, I don't think most of those actually indicate killstopper, though the couple regarding you not being the reason for the N1 no kill definitely are, I'll acknowledge that much.

But beyond that, T3 is just a better kill than either me or Titus in general. Can't say much for the Chloe kill, but T3 was the only kill that actually made sense for scum to make last night, regardless of my alignment. They can't kill me if I'm scum, because... Well, I'm one of them. They can't kill me if I'm Town, because that dooms Amy. Titus kill isn't the worst move, but flipping her makes it slightly easier to get meaningful information out of my result, since taken in isolation my Dunnstral analysis COULD implicate her as well as Amy, it only doesn't now because of prior results establishing Town!Amy as impossible. So T3 dying generates the least information, and he was never viable as a mislim, whereas Titus could possibly have been, and indeed she is being shaded as my potential partner.

There are also... Other reasons why your theory about me not killing for towncred don't work, but I can't really go into those unless Titus decides to fullclaim.