Open 842: Diffusion of Power [Postgame]

[Cephrir]

No need to apologize for any of that, I'm glad you're engaging in a healthier way.

^

[Amazonian Legends]

I don't, however, agree with the ultimate reason for Ydrasse's vote on number if I'm understanding it correctly. Number's been actively suspecting Ceph for some time, so it wasn't a surprise when he voted him.

[Amazonian Legends]

I don't, however, agree with the ultimate reason for Ydrasse's vote on number if I'm understanding it correctly. Number's been actively suspecting Ceph for some time, so it wasn't a surprise when he voted him.

I got to a better explanation, so never mind.

[Shirou]

@mod I'm gonna be in V/LA on sundays

[GuiltyLion]

hey y'all, I'm here and about to read up, I should be around on/off tonight for quite some time too so hit me up if you want ~ real time interactions ~

[GuiltyLion]

We both have thoughts about GL's play here vs that game, but they're still in the amorphous zone.

if they ever exit the amorphous zone, I'd love to hear them

[GuiltyLion]

There's a whole fua vs GL exchange in there that I don't have my thoughts sorted on yet. At multiple times throughout reading it I thought both players were either alignment. I kind of want to just throw it in the TvT bin and be done with it but that feels like a mistake.

why would that feel like a mistake?

I don't like the vibe of this post - kinda feels like you're hesitant to really dig into the spat we had and also you don't want to commit to a trajectory/read where we both come out of it harder for you to push

[morph the cat]

I feel like crap (tested negative today though), so I'm not sure how much I'm going to get done today before I pretend to play D&D in a bit. I've skimmed a little while at work, but I did want to be a bit self-indulgent and address something first.

Implosion - Yes, you used to be able to town bin me super early. Like pretty much within my first couple of posts.

Ceph - I know you want more from me and probably expect something different too.

I'm sorry (and not sorry) that I'm not as easy to read as I used to be. I'm not the same in real life person I was 6 months ago, let alone the same mafia player I was years ago. I can't be that emotionally invested or play with the same devotion or intensity I used to play with. It sucked. I was a triggered mess who wasn't pleasant in the game or out of the game a lot of the time, and getting that invested affected my real life negatively. I took a several year break, and when I came back I decided the only way I could play mafia is if I don't get so invested that it impacts my life, and I have to not care so much about being townread or being non-miselimable. (And having a good number of people tell me their goal was to be the first person to hand me my first true miselim caused massive paranoia all the time.).

I have failed at that a couple times, but I am working towards playing the game in a way that works for me and is fun. I know that makes me harder to read if you were dependent on the other stuff, and I'm sorry about that. But,

if you read me based on how I look at the game and people, a lot of that hasn't changed

. I imagine I'll do more as the game progresses that will be satisfactory, but I've never been much of a first half of day one player.

And if you're like oh Tammy that's easy to say, I do have recent games. My most recent game is the Trust Fall game that NumberQ modded a few months ago. And I'm not saying you have to townread me because my recent games look like this; I'm just saying adjust your expectations because I'm not the same as I used to be. I am town here though, and maybe if you're lucky you'll get to see what a travesty my game will be when I finally roll scum again lol.

To the point about only interacting with morph or whatever ceph said, and shirou's comment about dancing around morph, sure there was some early interaction that was a lot, but I've interacted with most people here, so I'm not real sure what that point was about.

I agree with the bolded. It's worked pretty well for me so far in our recent games.

Since I came back from hiatus a little over a year ago I think this is the 4rd game I've played with Tammy. She's said something like this in prior games and that's how she's played.

Regarding our page 1-2 clash, Tammy's and my interaction was about what I expect. I think I get to a townread before she does, but I probably hand out townreads more easily than she does in general. There's actually someone on this site who is more paranoid than I am!

Peng's post did not strike me as well as Tammy's hence my comment about BoP going both ways. I feel like Peng is probably as good at reading Cabd as he is at reading her. Maybe she doesn't get there quite as quickly as he does? But if there's something off, he tends to catch it early and hold onto that until he's satisfied.

There was a bizarre and awful game that I should probably stop bringing up, but in that game Peng, Cabd and I were all three in solo slots (it was a no-hydra game). I townread her quite strongly and spent my first night action protecting her (unnecessarily as it turned out). Cabd was squinty-eyed and brought up the possibility she was 3rd party ON DAY ONE. He was correct. The game had three 3rd parties, all of whom could townside and all of whom did.

So, yeah. maybe the BoP is a ~little~ heavier on us to get them right than the other direction, but it does go both ways. Anyway I expected/expect them to get us right, and I'm ok with where their read is at right now.

[GuiltyLion]

At a stage where people are starting to put out reads and leans, even tentative ones, here Ceph is giving a reason why he might not be able to. And then of course, he does not for the rest of his ISO. This is also +scum - he's been in several interactions and debates, but his only takeaway is that "everyone is scum"?

Do you think scum is more likely to go for an "everyone is scum" approach? I think scum are more likely to hand out some early townreads to try to get towncred in return. Ceph certainly doesn't seem interested in making allies this game

[Amazonian Legends]

I think if anything

fua

's claim today is slightly +scum rather than +town as fua hinted it's a late-day action so it seems like it could be designed to encourage us to keep fua around, while also making docs likely to target fua which is fua is scum gives scum freer rein to kill whoever they like. Definitely feeling a bit wary about that.

How likely do you think this kind of play actually is?

The cop claim didn’t surprise me actually, they made a post some time back that I read as a probable cop tell.

[GuiltyLion]

If ydrasse is scum and we're not just being paranoid, then GL's easy townread there after the dancegame becomes a point of great interest.

I think this is kinda backwards, wouldn't me easily townreading Ydrasse be more suspicious if she is town? Why would I hand out a barely-explained, easy townread to a buddy? I feel like a broken record repeatedly saying I don't do weak interactions with my buddies, I generally want to go to great lengths to look like I'm either disassociated by way of buddying them or disassociated by way of fighting with them.

[GuiltyLion]

repeatedly saying across games*, that is

[morph the cat]

If ydrasse is scum and we're not just being paranoid, then GL's easy townread there after the dancegame becomes a point of great interest.

I think this is kinda backwards, wouldn't me easily townreading Ydrasse be more suspicious if she is town? Why would I hand out a barely-explained, easy townread to a buddy? I feel like a broken record repeatedly saying I don't do weak interactions with my buddies, I generally want to go to great lengths to look like I'm either disassociated by way of buddying them or disassociated by way of fighting with them.

I'm still meh about that read, so dealwithit.

What do you see as significantly different about her play here vs the first couple calendar days of that game? And why is any difference +town?

[GuiltyLion]

I really like Ydrasse's numberQ push and general page 24-25 posting, definitely feeling good about a townread there

@Ydrasse, I really don't think I put as much focus on Shirou as you're saying I did, until very recently when we argued over his questioning of Tejate. My "backing off" was more a function of my Ceph SR implying a Shirou TR, not as much based on my misunderstanding of his logic. And misunderstanding or no I still don't

really

see how that line of questioning could have lead him to a townlean, regardless of alignment. You're acting like I can only question my scumreads.

I don't think Ydrasse is

acting

(also an odd word choice, for the record) like you can "only" question your scumreads, she's just highlighting that it's weird to question slots you're otherwise townreading, your Shirou questioning seemed like it should have purpose to it but then it just evaporated. It's easy to imagine that being scum doing fake-solving as opposed to town doing real, intentional solving. I don't like the way you're framing this last sentence here, like do you not understand how your questions towards Shirou seem contradictory/inconsistent with your mindset that scum!Ceph is pocketing town!Shirou? Even if you are town, I don't think it'd be a hard point to understand

[GuiltyLion]

What do you see as significantly different about her play here vs the first couple calendar days of that game? And why is any difference +town?

I don't think it's fair to contrast this game with that game too much because the setups are so different, first phase of dance game is all about getting a dance partner and it's a lot harder to really vote/pressure scumreads, especially as a lady

but I will say the difference I'm seeing is that Ydrasse seems genuinely a lot more invested in parsing out people's mindset behind their takes, I liked that she challenged me on the early conclusion I drew about your hydra having a townier opening than AL, I like that she's digging into numberQ's commentary on Shirou. It's not an ironclad reason to locktown Ydrasse, like she's certainly a capable scum player, but overall the sense I get from her scum game - especially how she played Dance - is that she leans heavily on appearing tonally town, chill vibes, wanting to seem like she's not too survivalist or too tryhard, etc, whereas I get the sense the purpose of her posts so far here is less about being

perceived

any kind of way and more doing real digging into things she doesn't like or doesn't understand. All this is D1 with no flips so heavy grain of salt, but that's the distinction I'm feeling

[GuiltyLion]

Who did scum read fua again? GL? I wonder what their opinion on this is.

my back and forth with fua gave me a solid townread on fua and it's been further reinforced by their play since then

I have no interest at all in a fua lim currently

[morph the cat]

What do you see as significantly different about her play here vs the first couple calendar days of that game? And why is any difference +town?

I don't think it's fair to contrast this game with that game too much because the setups are so different, first phase of dance game is all about getting a dance partner and it's a lot harder to really vote/pressure scumreads, especially as a lady

but I will say the difference I'm seeing is that Ydrasse seems genuinely a lot more invested in parsing out people's mindset behind their takes, I liked that she challenged me on the early conclusion I drew about your hydra having a townier opening than AL, I like that she's digging into numberQ's commentary on Shirou. It's not an ironclad reason to locktown Ydrasse, like she's certainly a capable scum player, but overall the sense I get from her scum game - especially how she played Dance - is that she leans heavily on appearing tonally town, chill vibes, wanting to seem like she's not too survivalist or too tryhard, etc, whereas I get the sense the purpose of her posts so far here is less about being

perceived

any kind of way and more doing real digging into things she doesn't like or doesn't understand. All this is D1 with no flips so heavy grain of salt, but that's the distinction I'm feeling

From my spectating of the dance game (and from the first Guardians of the Fortress game where she ruled as scum), she'll make big bold moves as scum. See her quick jump into the Keep in Guardians, and her taly-acceptance in dancegame.

Her vote on numbers kinda gave me that vibe, which is why I was pushing her earlier. The red-alert feel has dissipated, though.

Maybe what I pick up on isn't a channel you read people by and vice versa. We definitely locked horns a LOT in the dedede game.

[GuiltyLion]

Her vote on numbers kinda gave me that vibe, which is why I was pushing her earlier. The red-alert feel has dissipated, though.

I think probably a disconnect here is I don't see the numbers vote as an especially Big Move. I do feel you on her liking a big play, but I think the end goal of those big plays is again to

be townread

, I don't get the same vibe from her here. though I can understand your perspective, if you think that vote is likely to be townread then I can see the thought process

[morph the cat]

Her vote on numbers kinda gave me that vibe, which is why I was pushing her earlier. The red-alert feel has dissipated, though.

I think probably a disconnect here is I don't see the numbers vote as an especially Big Move. I do feel you on her liking a big play, but I think the end goal of those big plays is again to

be townread

, I don't get the same vibe from her here. though I can understand your perspective, if you think that vote is likely to be townread then I can see the thought process

I think those moves are about more than being townread, though. They're tactical. Maybe strategic sometimes. Her taly accept felt a little too in the moment and based on sensing an opportunity to me. And that was the feel l got from the timing of her numbers vote, because it came right after a player with substantial gravitas (who I was townreading) gave the impression of having concern about numbers.

[morph the cat]

Anyway, that's basically a footnote now, and not a bottom of the pile read.

[redtea]

you people sl'd fua for a little airheadedness in their opening posts?
might as well tie *me* to the stake right now then

really though what I see from their iso is that they're going for more of a conversationalist playstyle rather than an essayist one.

I resent being called an airhead but I can respect where you're coming from.

What exactly is a conversationalist playstyle? I play how I want.

uuhh
idk, the vibe

speaking of vibes, shirou vs fua was Not a vibe

[GuiltyLion]

voting redtea feels like a waste if they’re not active but their entrance was meh

if redtea is scum, wagoning them could put the buddies in a harder spot

[GuiltyLion]

do better

why do you scumread me again

let's work it out

[GuiltyLion]

I'd be annoyed but it's not like there's a shortage of viable scum candidates atm.

Ceph, where's your GL scumlean coming from?

i'm expecting town-GL to produce compelling analysis and be a town leader, and i haven't seen that so far

oh, this

it's coming! once I finish eating dinner and reading and thinking I think I'll do a reads wallpost

[GuiltyLion]

My take is that we shouldn't lim any of the inactive slots today. This isn't a game suffering for activity, so unless we think all 3 scum are lurking then I don't see an upside to basing wagons on activity.

this is a bizarre take

lurkier slots are generally more likely to be scum, and if they're town they're limbait town that's better served getting out of the way

the ideal scenario is to lim a lurky slot whose content has been scummy when they HAVE been here, like redtea

I wouldn't advocate for NSG because I don't think any of her stuff has been all that scummy and I think with time / if she comes back, she'll put some effort into the thread

but I think advocating to

not

lim any inactive slots is weird on the whole

in general, it's easier for scum to find reasons to bullshit pushes on active townies than total lurk townies too