Open 842: Diffusion of Power [Postgame]

[Shirou]

Searching for a replacement for northsidegal.

[Shirou]

where he was some magical way to observe a read from imaginality posting on his own like a goddamn nature documentarian observing giraffes in their natural habitat or something.

I like that description

Also not replying Tejate "why would I vote and unvote as scum". Too much effort for what I don't see giving any reward.

Either way making enemies of Tejate or GL or Morph or whover isn't my focus. For the rest of this dayphase I just want three other votes for Imaginality. That's the important stuff so I may end up for now ignoring certain comments or engagements towards my way if I don't feel like it contributes much to that objective.

@redtea you don't seem to like Imaginality slot that much so can you vote for him before I lose my patience and begin pushing your wagon myself? It's either you or him.

Please and thank you.

[Shirou]

I'm interested to see what Ceph will decide here

@numberQ, you seem kinda whatever/neutral on redtea while kinda suspicious of some imaginality's posts. Are you willing to vote him in a redtea vs imaginality dilemma?

[Shirou]

by the way

redtea is extremely blase and has posted almost nothing of worth. Does scum do that so blatantly? <- literally the exact line in my notes, and literally the entirety of my redtea thoughts up to page 42

In my opinion no. I think scum!redtea is kinda less blatant about it from what I read of their recent scum games.

[Shirou]

for what it's worth I don't think imaginality trying to get a wagon on implosion like that is scummy. I would do the same thing regardless of my alignment if I was in his position.

I really do think it was more AI-revealing the fact he didn't react like this from the start

/shrug

Spoiler:

yes this is kinda a prod dodge disguised as content, how did you know?

p-edit: actually fua has a point. If it was only self-preservation he could vote redtea rather than implosion. The unique reason to not do that is if he was that much more confident on implosion flipping scum/redtea being town but...I don't know if I buy he has that much more confidence on implosion huh...

[Shirou]

i’m still super sick and haven’t followed has anything important happened

not a lot

it just seems more and more likely we're voting scum at the moment, can't say I'm 100% confident on it but eh.

kinda feels nice.

hope you get better soon ydrasse

[Shirou]

I miss NSG

[Shirou]

Meg if you catch up with the whole game you'll probably understand why we're voting Imaginality

[Shirou]

if it's not a hard scumread why are you vanity voting on her rather than trying to settle for one of the top consensus suspects?

We aren't eliminating Ydrasse today, I think that should be clear from the gamestate right now?

You've also read the entire game up to now but literally no comment on imaginality/redtea dilemma? That's weird as fuck tbh.

The last time you mentioned redtea was on your two initial readlists and they were on the bottom, but you doesn't seem interested in their wagon at all?

You read the game but rather than have any takes about the main topics you only vote ydrasse that is currently sick and that's it?

[Shirou]

Meg if you catch up with the whole game you'll probably understand why we're voting Imaginality

I like how this can simultaneously be not only a perfectly justifiable descriptive statement ("I and some other people are voting imaginality currently")

but also a rhetorical flourish that begs the question ("we the town have decided we are going to vote imaginality out of here")

.

wow

now that's a huge stretch in an attempt to shade me...

I'm impressed, that was rather creative.

Do you think I want to enter the game giving intent?

kinda yeah

I'd much rather actually have some opportunity to interact with the gamestate than end the day immediately. And that means some motion for the time being

you didn't try to interact with anyone or anything before I called you out. You voted Ydrasse and that was it.

[Shirou]

I don't like the fact redtea is ignoring me asking they for a vote on imaginality.

[Shirou]

That wasn't a hammer stop fake hammers attempts it's just silly...

(you need to type the player name correctly in the vote for it to count, I'm pretty sure).

More often than not scum know it's a fake hammer so they pretend to be flipped town to get town credit, and some people fall to the bait.

I think it even happened in one of the TM 2021 games as well although I'm not 100% sure.

Either way, rather than fake hammers could someone

actually

hammer imaginality already? We've less than 72 hours anyway.

[Shirou]

Hm

by the way something came up IRL to me. It may or not affect my activity here, I'm not sure yet. Either way, don't be surprised if I suddenly drop out although I'll try not to.

Just warning I guess.

[Shirou]

I wasn't the one to heal yesterday's night

so

popcorn to the next person?

[Shirou]

I see differences. I'm not sure if they can be chalked up to replacing in vs playing from the start.

yeah

if that newbie is finished, that is one of the things that were bugging me about Tejate yesterday

[Shirou]

I dunno if I should keep pushing my reads today again though

imaginality flipping town perhaps is a sign I need to talk less and listen more in this game but...dunno if I'll actually do that

[Shirou]

by "pushing my reads" I meant "pushing as hard as yesterday" of course

basically I don't know if me trying to direct wagons or the flow of the thread is a good thing atm given my reads/mindset in this game are yet to be proved correct on anything.

Still can the n1 doctor claim? I want to know who is the potential confirmed townie, although there may be more than two n1 doctors I guess...

p-edit: lol?

[Shirou]

Tejate I think it's again really scummy that you seemed to purposefully stay out of the wagon by the end and now is implying we need to eliminate/look at someone in the wagon.

but /shrug

I guess it's not an unreasonable opinion to have from your pov. In my opinion though there's in fact a very good probability that not ALL of scum piled onto imaginality considering how much we had to wait for a hammer later on. That moment of apathy to me now read as if they knew imaginality was a miselimination that would probably happen anyway so they wanted to stay out of it to not dirty their hands. There may or not be 2 scum in the Imaginality wagon, but I confidently think there's at least one scum out of Imaginality's wagon, and the pool of people out of it is smaller than the people in, especially when I do personally factor Amazon as likely town due to my explanation yesterday.

Therefore...I kinda think both by the analysis above and by my own reads, that there's likely one scum in Tejate/NumberQ/Meg/Redtea.

Yes I'm including redtea there because I didn't like the fact they hesitated so much to just vote Imaginality with us even when we were at 72 hours until deadline or less. I still think the wagonomics yesterday may make more sense if both redtea and imaginality are town though...hm, not sure.

p-edit: one minute

[Shirou]

What issues do you have with this game vs 2085?

kinda...everything I said yesterday

like, basically I expected you to be more of the main cast of the game rather than a supporting character as you feel right now, because in the small amount of time you spent on newbie 2085 as town, that's the feeling I got from you there.

[Shirou]

I'm less bored now. Let's try this. Next post, folks, give us your GTH (gun-to-head) fua reads.

--PA

huh, I kinda saw this but didn't think you would be this insistent

my opinion about fua is...hm, meh town? kkkkk

it's the same read I had on they yesterday. I think they are more likely town than not for the cop claim, but even more important than that, I think it's important for me to have this kind of read on they for the moment.

I can explain more later if I'm still alive.

[Shirou]

eh, I can kinda see what Amazon may or not be doing here. I think I should just let them do it on their own for now rather than potentially spill the beans though.

I'm only posting this just to point something out if it turns out to be the case later.

[Shirou]

although there may be

more than two

n1 doctors I guess...

Now that amazoness CEO has claimed to be beautiful explain the shit out of this line because uhhhhh

hm, on hindsight the wording was kinda awkward because it would have been more grammatically correct to say "there may be more than one night-1 doctor", but basically it meant what it seemed to?

there may or not be more than one night 1 doctor. Now we wait until everyone checks out Amazon's claim I guess.

[Shirou]

eh, I can kinda see what Amazon may or not be doing here. I think I should just let them do it on their own for now rather than potentially spill the beans though.

I'm only posting this just to point something out if it turns out to be the case later.

by the way this post was me thinking Amazon was indeed the doctor after they quoted that question again, and the healed person was fua. If I was scum here I think I would have said I had gotten more suspicious of fua during a n1 reread, since mafia should have known fua was gonna be confirmed today due to night result, so normally scum would reply "town", "very town", etc here most of the time.

:thonking:

yes this post is kinda silly self-meta but my point is, I think too much confidence on fua being town before the reveal is slightly +scum for a slot. It's a minor point though I guess. Most people did think fua was town anyway.

To be honest, now that this happened I can reveal I didn't think fua was that town at all. But the reason I stuck/slapped a town read in the slot was so that hopefully mafia would aim for they and confirm they as town if they were, be it by an actual kill or by a kill blocked like this.

If you want a slot dead/confirmed but not in the near future, the most effective way to do is to slap a town read on them.

[Shirou]

can you explain this - why yesterday makes more sense with redtea as town? I'm town and I was pounding the table for redtea for a ton of yesterday and virtually nobody bit at it. The way you discount a scum!redtea possibility here doesn't sit right with me - while I can certainly imagine town!redtea I don't follow how you say it makes more sense than a rather straightforward possibility of redtea being scum coasting, townies didn't feel confident in it, and scum didn't push it to avoid putting too much pressure on a teammate.

eh, in a hypothetical world where it's scum!redtea:

I think when redtea wagon picked up and I rose to defend it, I kinda think it was a good opportunity for scum to gain a bit more town cred by attacking me/redtea and trying to tie our slots together. However redtea wagon had...kinda almost no resistance or pushback from me trying to defuse it.

It does make sense to think perhaps "oh, they were very happy you defused it for they so they stayed quiet"...but, I don't think most scum would actually act like that. They would be happy that I'm defending their partner and therefore my slot will look bad later, but I think they would most likely than not throw some shade on my way for defending redtea.

Either that or they would bus redtea for a bit and later on follow me on Imaginality claiming they changed their mind. I think scum!redtea was very likely gonna get bussed a bit there.

The unique slots that could either fit a "threw shade my way but later followed me on Imaginality" or "voted redtea but later imaginality due to my lead" was respectively you/Ceph. I guess it's possible either of you would be a hypothetical scum!redtea partners but...eh

I don't know, I kinda think so much apathy on whether to vote redtea or imaginality is better explained by them both being town, but sure, like I said I can see scum!redtea as possible at the moment.

[Shirou]

This seems in retrospect like a really strangely fast turnaround. The only reason I don't immediately want to call it super scummy is that I'm not entirely sure what GL-scum's motivation would be to make such an awkward turnaround onto imaginality.

I kinda felt something similar

but I thought a bit more positively about it than you perhaps

I thought "eh, GL read on Imaginality seems to be rather flowy, as in, first he says he likes some stuff and later changes his mind for another post". Didn't feel like he had much of an agenda for voting Imaginality from the start.

dunno how positive it is though.

[Shirou]

im not used to hunting from wagns especially town wagons but that does seem for some reason like a useful avenue this game

so you agree with Tejate's vision that there's likely scum (and perhaps multiple scum) in the Imaginality wagon?

Or do you perhaps agree with mine that it's likely there's at least one scum out of Imaginality's wagon?

[Shirou]

im not used to hunting from wagns especially town wagons but that does seem for some reason like a useful avenue this game

so you agree with Tejate's vision that there's likely scum (and perhaps multiple scum) in the Imaginality wagon?

Or do you perhaps agree with mine that it's likely there's at least one scum out of Imaginality's wagon?

i don't like to think in terms of "there's scum in this wagon," i think that alone is too specific, however i want to analyze the flow of votes in general and see if anyone stands out.

fair.

to be honest my opinion that there may be at least one outside of the wagon may be biased because my individual reads also point that way, kinda.

eh, let me open this d2 then with this

VOTE: meg

It's either this or Tejate for now from me, but I'm gonna open with this because I think it's more interesting (and also maybe scummier?)

I didn't like how all he had to say after catchup was mostly a ydrasse vote near deadline (especially since she was sick anyway). That didn't help at all when Imag flipped town and also especially if redtea is town as well as I ~kinda do think~ (less confident than yesterday though).

Feels like scum that didn't want to get his hands dirty to me.

/shrug

[Shirou]

like I wrote up a whole case on redtea and was met by the thread with a resounding meh

in a hypothetical world where you're town and redtea turns out to be scum

sorry kkkkkkkk

I think I would have quite some amount of blame for that day 1 in this scenario.

[Shirou]

Shirou made the show of wanting to be the one who started the wagon so maybe he counts as more of the former group

that show is definitely funnier (and also more cringe?) on reread when we know Imaginality was town kkkkkk

[Shirou]

Do they make sense together?

kkkk Idk

I guess maybe? I'm trying to not associative read too much today given yesterday results though

[Shirou]

s. Though I think I currently prefer Tejate over Meg given I was townreading NSG's content

I kinda very slightly did town read NSG for something that I'm not sure it's ethical or even allowed to say at all. So I'm gonna remain quiet on why I think, but yeah, I kinda also had some goodwill towards NSG slot but I'm not sure if Meg didn't completely revert that.

meh, I guess I could do Tejate as well, but I really do disagree on the point that Meg not going for either redtea/imag isn't scummy.

I think town for sure would have had something to say about the two top wagons that had been discussed so much...but he didn't say or do anything other than a vanity vote on Ydrasse. I can't help but be weirded out by that.

[Shirou]

this is the kind of moment I wanted to just sheep NSG for a bit if I had her as a town read/lean...



p-edit: it's still early in the day. I don't want to try to strongarm you guys wagons I think due to how yesterday went.

[Shirou]

I want to dayvig Tejate/Meg and just have their flips already at the same time I don't want to be so impulsive on D2.

How do I reconcile those feelings?

dunno.

[Shirou]

I think implosion is my highest town read by play rather than mechanics/circumstances (like Amazon/fua), and that's kinda wild. Didn't expect to have this kind of read on him at all even if he was town.

p-edit: and there comes fua

[Shirou]

you guys don't seem as interested on meg for now as you are on tejate so let me help for now

VOTE: tejate

let's see how this develops I guess

[Shirou]

[Shirou]

Shirou do you find me and Tejate linked as S/T or do you just scumread us independantly

independently

why do you ask though?

[Shirou]

How could you possibly be that confident that fua would be an impossible wagon? The argument you're referencing started on page 12.

???

where did he say it was an "impossible" wagon in the last posts?

[Shirou]

1) No. I would actually be happy to flip them, rather than the null spot where I'm still mulling them over. But that seems quite unlikely to happen today.

what the hell...

like, this just doesn't feel like something town!Tejate would say compared to the completed newbie.

Rather than

wait

people think that Morph is scummy by their own, I feel you would be more interested in engaging Morph by yourself and trying to convince other people of your opinion if you began feeling confident on it after engaging Morph.

It feels so

bizarre

that you're playing this "supporting character" role, always trying to respect and follow consensus, always hesitant to put things forward yourself and rather almost always waiting for other people's leads on stuff.

I feel it's so weird compared to what I saw from you in the newbie that "you must be scum" echoes in my head , but it also feels kinda like a bizarre behavior to have as scum as well? That's like, the unique point I can still see for you being town. It feels like you're playing a classic newbie-scum game and maybe it would be a bit less obvious if you were actual scum?

but eh...I don't see a reason to trust you wouldn't be like this as scum. I don't think I should necessarily assume higher standards for your scum game without looking at it at least once given you're new/inexperienced and all. My first scum game as a newbie was also full of classic scum tells.

[Shirou]

about the case on GL...I could see GL as scum not really necessarily for the reasons Implosion listed but just because...I don't know, it feels like it would be reasonable/normal if GL flipped scum here? Maybe it's a gamestate read? I don't know.

Like Implo said, I find it hard to read GL by analyzing his arguments or so. He's really good at arguing with a towny scumhunting mindset even when he's red, it's how he snowed me on my first newbie game. I was looking for logical inconsistencies and his arguments were almost perfect, but he was scum anyway in the end.

I silently spectated back in the day a game where Norwe/GL were both scum against town!RC/town!Mena. I was correctly scum reading GL there but it was almost a complete gamestate read. It just "made sense" for him to be scum. His trajectory made sense from a logical point of view, but his trajectory when we were later on the game with many flips clearly favored more scum win condition than town. It felt a bit calculated?

IF redtea is town, and If we take the last claims at face-value, I think I would similarly see GL's trajectory so far kinda being pro-scum.

I do think I've been pro-scum as well though with Imaginality miselimination, so I'm not saying he's gonna flip scum just because of that, but basically, it does feel very plausible up to now that GL can be scum.

Eh, maybe this is an empty post that doesn't reach any good conclusion but I wanted to talk about my GL read because he's the most complex player to read to me in this playerlist...the unique other capable of rivaling him would perhaps be morph maybe?

Eh, but still, it's not like I think the other players are easy to read at all, I just feel GL/Morph is particularly hard.

[Shirou]

regardless of GL alignment though

I still think there's scum in Tejate/Meg *especially* with those recent claims now (if we're to believe them and for now I'm gonna believe on them, I like numberQ recent posts. They feel like he's really engaged in solving the game).


GL may or not be scum in my pov but there's almost always a guaranteed scum in Tejate/Meg for me. If both Tejate/Meg are town, I think it would be a bizarre world and we should name this game "NK15's Bizarre Adventures", but if that ever happened at all of both being town, I think there would be guaranteed scum in GL/Morph then, if not both?

[Shirou]

Hm, yeah

I think there's 2 scum at least in Meg/Tejate/GuiltyLion/Morph. Maybe all 3 but I could see one being out of that pool somewhere.

[Shirou]

Redtea can you like do something useful by the way?

I know I said it was a +town thing for you in D1 but like...this is D2 already and your ISO is as empty as a blank sheet paper?

It doesn't even feel like you're trying to play the game if I'm allowed to perhaps be a bit mean.

I genuinely feel like it wouldn't be a terrible idea to vote you if this keeps being the case not because I'm confident you flip scum or anything, but because I would refuse to lose to that ISO if you're ever scum here (even if the probability was/is very low due to meta)?

[Shirou]

I kinda feel like redtea may be intentionally doubling down on the "I'm not putting effort into reads here" thingy here after I said it was a ~towny~ thing for them, and I do think *that* could be argued as something scummy even when considering their meta. I expected them to do something, at some point, but it doesn't seem to be coming out.

[Shirou]

yeah, maybe add redtea to the pool of people I wouldn't hate to see flip like GL/Morph.

I do feel if we get redtea wrong though it would be such a huge waste of elimination but eh

/shrug

this is a bit too much even for low expectations about content. I shouldn't blame myself that much if it comes to that and we're wrong. I truly tried to read the slot properly.

[Shirou]

What about this post in particular gives you that impression? I don't really feel like it's that dissimilar from this.

I literally explain what I think town!you would do in this situation rather than posting that...like, this question also feels unnecessary Tejate. As if you're asking just to ask, post just to post. I felt some...fire and greater purpose from your posts on the newbie game and I don't here.

Also that vote Meg...kinda

hilarious

to hear you saying I'm not interested in solving. Have you ever looked at your own ISO...?

[Shirou]

A mechanical thought: I think no-limming today may actually be the best move, but not sure. The advantage to continuing to lim every day is that a doc save earns us an extra mislim; I believe this is literally the only mechanical advantage. No-limming in this setup is actually pretty nice, because it basically "improves" every remaining cop by one night. If there are any n2 cops, we'll be able to use their info for the next elimination rather than the following one, etc etc. We lower the risk of eliminating any cops before they're able to use their shots, and if there

is

a doc save tonight then we can just do it again.

The other downside is there's a good chance we'd lose probably ceph (assuming that we leash Ydrasse to fua). But scum couldn't just safely kill him either, because we could easily have another n2 doctor.

eh implo

even if we miselim someone that would be cop checked at night, it just means there's one less target for the cops though? I also do kinda think we can likely get an extra save until the end of this game perhaps, which would give us an extra elimination yeah.

The unique scenario I see a no-lim strategy being better than just limming everyday is if...welp, don't want to give scum ideas actually kkkk, but yeah it's only in a specific scenario so I'm kinda against this.

This is the...weirdest post from you for me to be honest...didn't expect you to think no limming may be a good idea given the counterpoints I said above (maybe I'm missing something though? dunno).

[Shirou]

I really expected there to be a second doc claim so that we couldn’t mostly clear fua.

I also expected it. Not really that surprised there was no doc claim though, maybe scum aren't ballsy here.

or...maybe they are super ballsy and...welp, let's no go there for no reason I guess, very low probability especially if you are town as I think you're.

[Shirou]

What about this post in particular gives you that impression? I don't really feel like it's that dissimilar from this.

I literally explain what I think town!you would do in this situation rather than posting that...like, this question also feels unnecessary Tejate. As if you're asking just to ask, post just to post. I felt some...fire and greater purpose from your posts on the newbie game and I don't here.

Also that vote Meg...kinda

hilarious

to hear you saying I'm not interested in solving. Have you ever looked at your own ISO...?

I don't recall myself trying to force a 50/50 between two players that I haven't interacted with

.

Players that I didn't INTERACT WITH?

If you're ever town this just kinda pisses me off. If you're scum as I suspect fine we can chalk up to just you attempting to create a narrative but either way this is straight up fabrication.

I literally engaged a lot with Tejate, asking him questions and explaining my issues with him to see what he would say. It took me quite awhile to have a conclusion on him, people even complained/suspected me for it, I'm in fact probably the person that

most

interacted with Tejate.

have you like...READ THE GAME? It's beginning to feel clear to me that you probably didn't other than a huge fat skim where you didn't even notice a lot of what was talked about (and that is different from just a "skim" as you said before).

In fact, this would make a lot of sense of your slot's behavior. You didn't pay attention at all to what happened in the game because you were disinterested in solving alignments from the start, so it's not that you won't talk about slots. Perhaps it's the case that you

CAN'T

talk (because you don't know much about D1)?

Saying I didn't interact with Tejate is just very, very disingenuous to anyone that has properly read D1.

and about interacting with you, I did try to get you to talk more about redtea/imaginality and...about anything else you felt like back on D1. You brushed me off. Now you want to say I didn't try to interact with you?

Yeah, maybe you're a really good elimination as I suspected.

[Shirou]

in truth I'm not as angry as the post above suggests but I thought it was a good idea to write it like that for...IMPACT!



can we yet Meg today or tomorrow?

please and thank you

[Shirou]

I did initially think about replying to each line of his post like that (with a semi-wall) because I've an issue with literally all of the lines but I probably shouldn't bother with that much effort

but to reply in a summarized way the rest:

Solving doesn't actually require much vocalization but pushing an agenda does. Activity isn't AI.

No, it does require vocalization if you're town if you're doing it properly.

If you're town more likely than not your main job is to be town read rather than "catching the scumz". If you're a townie that is able to make others town read you, you've made the life of everyone with a green role much easier by not being a good vote, so it's more likely the votes are going for scum.

More often than not, scum isn't universally town read. They may be a consensus town lean or weak TR, but that's circumstantial to the fact that there's scummier people. If townies were better in showing how and why they are townies, scum would have no or few miseliminations left and even the most skilled scum players would find themselves in a hard spot.

It's fine to hold back things for some time to sort it out, but you're supposed to talk about the game as town, otherwise it's impossible for other townies to properly read your slot.

Thinking that as a townie you just need to "catch the scumz" while not making an effort to be readable is honestly both selfish and arrogant.

Mathematically speaking if you're town, you're probably just not that good of a scum hunter where your only priority should be thinking by yourself who is scum or not. I'm in the same boat.

Would love to hear more of what you think of ceph/ ydrasse at this point

Ceph has an inno by NumberQ and I believe NumberQ's cop claim. I already talked about this. Again, are you reading the game?

Ydrasse is...kinda not here after getting sick? I was kinda liking her slot before but now I'm kinda waiting her to properly recover and get on the game. Not a terrible cop target at the moment but at the same time not feeling like voting there for now.

Actually, I really don't get your obsession with Ydra slot when you just brushed off the other low activity posters like redtea, that have MUCH LESS content than Ydra.

If Ydra is ever scum I actually think you may be a potential buddy in fact. I don't see any good logical explanation for your issue with Ydra for "coasting" (when she was sick no less!) when there was MULTIPLE slots doing that?

[Shirou]

okay maybe it wasn't very summarized but I couldn't stop typing

I don't know how to type less but still explain all my points...

sigh

[Shirou]

I just wasted 40 minutes to reply a post with three lines

I would like therefore to hereby claim I'm ignoring Meg's posts going forward if I feel like they are just bullshit like this last one

I'll just call they bullshit and move on

[Shirou]

shirou you haven't interacted with me basically at all this game

I'll ask you again due to you also being interested on Ceph without seemingly suspecting NumberQ:

Are you actually reading the game?

if it's not a hard scumread why are you vanity voting on her rather than trying to settle for one of the top consensus suspects?

We aren't eliminating Ydrasse today, I think that should be clear from the gamestate right now?

You've also read the entire game up to now but literally no comment on imaginality/redtea dilemma? That's weird as fuck tbh.

The last time you mentioned redtea was on your two initial readlists and they were on the bottom, but you doesn't seem interested in their wagon at all?

You read the game but rather than have any takes about the main topics you only vote ydrasse that is currently sick and that's it?

Do you think I want to enter the game giving intent?

kinda yeah

I'd much rather actually have some opportunity to interact with the gamestate than end the day immediately. And that means some motion for the time being

you didn't try to interact with anyone or anything before I called you out. You voted Ydrasse and that was it.

The above was me trying to get you to speak up something. I'm not gonna ask you about your read on X slot if that's what you're talking about, you were a replacement and I wanted to see what stuff you would give the most attention to in your content because I already talked on how it's important to look at what low content/activity slots choose to focus on, so when you didn't give content at all I poked you, and you just kept on the instance of not talking about stuff.

Now you want to blame me for not trying to have a talk with you? If you had began talking about your reads after I poked you, I would have engaged you more. You were the one not willing to talk much.

If you're ever town here, this point about me not having tried to engage you/tejate is just bad-faith or bad memory. I'm not backing down from this instance.

[Shirou]

Shirou can you restate your tejate case in full.

no you can look up my ISO and I've given the summary multiple times.

To simplify it in one line is:

He feels like a supporting character here while he felt like part of the main cast in the recent finished newbie where it's confirmed he was town.

I talked more extensively about why he feels like that in multiple points in my ISO, just look it up while doing a CTRL + F search for "Tejate"?

I'm kinda spending too much time writing posts in this game, I want to tone down in that behavior especially when I think your approach on me is either in bad-faith or just scum as I suspect.

The "there's X scum in W/Y/Z" thing is actually something I say in almost every game, although the person with most experience with me replaced out, anyone else can check it out if they want to. I'm quite faking some part of my confidence to not end up in the slop of "but what if I'm wrong..." which has cost me more games than saved me, but either way I feel pretty good about the "case" even if may seem minimalist yes.

I believe you get a good read in a slot by focusing on a few points rather than having "multiple" ones. Tejate isn't acting like I think he would as town and that's it.

[Shirou]

meg, did you see nQ's claim?

yes, I should have phrased it as assuming a numberQ scum flip but I took it out as I didn't want it tied to their opinion on ydrasse.

I figured it would be implied since if NumberQ is town ceph is mech!town anyway

it's still so weird

why should I assume NumberQ is scum right now while thinking about Ceph right now?

like...what?

Maybe later? sure. But right now feels like a waste of time to think about Ceph which is a slot that is dependent on someone else being scum? It's like an associative read which even if NQ flips scum, can still be town?

I had Ceph as null town before and he's town now due to the claim, and that's it. If NumberQ flipped scum I think I would still have him as null town.

[Shirou]

I think GL's thing for redtea since D1 is actually the most AI stuff in his ISO but I'm not sure which way to take it yet.

[Shirou]

I was going to make this part of the big post, but I'll just leave this here so I've at least posted something beyond "I am making a post." So here you go, have something while I type furiously and try to figure out how to copypaste quotes from spoilers.

Spoiler: Night 2 Cop proposal

Shirou is one of the best possible cop checks if we have a night 2 cop.

Now now, I know what some of you may be thinking. We should be trying to generate guilties, not checking widely townread players. To that, I'd like to ask you to re-evaluate what exactly it is that makes you think Shirou

won't

generate a guilty. There have been some lingering doubts ever since NSG's paranoia post. They have constantly taken a very town-leaderly approach, which is extremely dangerous if they're scum. It is better that we clear any doubts about this slot sooner than later. If we do this too late and they turn out to be scum it's more than likely that the damage has already been done and we're on the verge of losing anyways. Worst case scenario, we have 3 real cop checks left and 2 to 3 fake ones, and I think it is absolutely in town's best interest to place one of them here.

I can live with a cop check on me after GL.

I'm not going to say it's unreasonable to check me but still, I think both me and GL are hard players to read in certain circumstances but GL is much more of a consensus suspect than I'm.

Eh, I guess this can be interpreted as scum!me trying to deflect a cop claim which is true, but really, I just would love a cop check on GL because I do trust town!GL to make good decisions later and I don't want to risk we miseliminating him (by my own hands or not) when there's multiple low content slots. A cop check on me just feels like a waste right now because almost no one is suspecting me so it doesn't help we collectively change how we view the game very much.

If I'm still alive later on though, I guess theoretically I may be a sound cop check, but I do honestly think I may die before that. There's some smart plays to do here as scum in the night kills but not sure if scum is actually gonna realize that, or even if they are in the position to do that.

[Shirou]

it means that Tejate hasn't actually acted scummy in your eyes since d1

?????

He has acted scummy

SINCE DAY 1 IN MY EYES

.

what.the.FUCK do you mean by saying the issue I've with him, that he has shown SINCE d1, mean that I shouldn't be suspecting him or something?

Morph is literally saying the same thing I'm. Your slot feels so weirdly focused.

Redtea was coasting but you only focused on Ydra in D1.

Both me and Morph are having a problem with Tejate but you only address me.

This is what I was saying about letting low-content posters do content on their own without people giving they direction. Meg's trajectory about what to focus just doesn't seem natural.

[Shirou]

You aren't helping your case by A. not answering questions offered to you and B basing your case on tejate pretty much solely on of a single example of a game.

I already had talked about the fact it's scummy on its own, and it just gets

worse

when there's a game showcasing him not being so passive.

His posts have always felt awkward to me even before reading that game, I talk about this early on in the game, but I chalked up for that time on him being a newbie, but it just kept happening so I decided to check his game, and "tada!", I didn't have an issue with his vibe in that other game at all. Therefore, my read on him here.

Also I don't need to help my case. The unique reason I'm explaining myself to you is because your arguments sound so nonsensical to me that I would be flabbergasted if someone began agreeing with you or sheeping you. You can keep your vote on me because I'm mostly likely than not just killing your slot at some point if I'm alive in the game.

[Shirou]

The only point of Tejates content you find "scummy" is that it's different than their last game. Nothing that would be scum indicative if it came from any other player

Unless you have some secret point about how it's actually scummy?

holy fuck you've really not read my ISO have you

I already talked about it but let's go again for a bit:

Tejate so far has always tried to be too considerate of other people reads rather than trying to convince others of theirs, always too happy to oblige to consensus rather than try to convince the consensus of what he think is right, always

talking/trying to show

more than

actually acting on it

(for example when he kept talking about "I'm gonna get a read on X slot soon" only to never come around it for most of D1). Very often also posting something that in some way or other had an implicit message of "haha I'm town guys how are you in this fine day?".

Those are all obvious scummy things

on its own

. That's what most people were talking about when they said Tejate sounded

"awkward"

. Some people have just defaulted it to him being a newbie which is an opinion I shared at the start, but overtime it kept bugging me so I began to rethink it, and after reading that game I ended up having a more firm conclusion.

The meta just makes the case stronger, all this behavior is scummy on its own and you can go around the room and ask most people if they agree with me or not about this being some classic scum tells for some players.

[Shirou]

I mean feel free to nightkill me.
This obviously isn't getting anywhere atm.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

NIGHTKILL? YOU?

...

We've a jokester here huh. In what world do you think I would nightkill you if I was scum...like...your posts and logic flabbergast me sometimes.

If I was scum, you would be a part of my designated miselimination pool and I would have quite the confidence you would be an easy miselimination to get sooner or later.

[Shirou]

I'm not even really that confident you're scum in truth, I kinda had more doubts than I was letting on. Faking your confidence for a bit is only natural if you want to actually get a wagon on people.

I liked a certain stuff from NSG as I had said early but it doesn't feel within the rules to say it atm, so I'm not gonna say it for now, but...

Blah. The more I try to interact with you the more I come to the conclusion that I don't care if I'm wrong on your slot alignment. If you're scum here it's only natural but if you're ever town here, I think we simply don't get along and it's kinda the first time I've gotten a bit tilted since returning from my hiatus.

p-edit: wait a min

[Shirou]

I think copping Shirou would be a slightly odd thing for scum-tejate to come up with the idea to suggest.

eh really? I kinda think trying to make me people cop me for ~paranoia~ is kinda very pro-scum because it wouldn't really clear anyone from the miselimination pool so...it's kinda a solid thing for scum to recommend/suggest/think about?

Maybe you're talking about how Tejate wouldn't come up with this idea because of his personality or experience, but I would kinda disagree anyway, he was already on the trajectory of reconsidering me.

[Shirou]

Alright I know it's been like 3 years since you joined but you do realize playstyle changes the most drastically when you first join the site? I don't take it as AI for a number of reasons.

I did the exact same thing Tejate is doing my first 2 games. The first was a newbie where I was headstrong and wrong and the second was a 13 player game where I was more reserved and ended up being LHF.

I would think his behavior is scummy even without the meta. What part of that you didn't understand? The meta just made me get more confident on it but I would still likely start scum reading him at some point because it was bugging me since early game even though I tried hard to look past into it due to his seemingly inexperience?

[Shirou]

You know

Meg really sounds like someone that knows Tejate is town and is getting themselves ready to shade/blame people tomorrow if Tejate flips green.

Not that I think Tejate is town but eh. Meg's posts are increasingly bugging me. It's hard to believe they do believe on what they are saying at some points, their logic is so...weird sometimes?

[Shirou]

Also notably if relevant for later, this is probably a really strong anti partner tell (if you're both scum it'd be quite wild for tejate to suggest this)

oh I agree with this one kkkkk?

if I was scum I would be trying to avoid cop checks like the plague, although I also am trying to avoid they as town because it's just sub-optimal from my pov.

[Shirou]

about the GL vs Implo thing...huh, not much changed about what they are saying since last time I talked about it so I'm gonna let it sit there yeah

[Shirou]

Tejate being town isn't actually relevant to your logic being bad and I think you know it's bad

?

it's not bad, scum whiteknighting mislim bait is sometimes a classic scum tell

dunno what you're talking about

[Shirou]

If Meg says what I think they are gonna say about my last post I'm death tunneling I think

I intentionally left it there just for a sanity check

[Shirou]

Alright I know it's been like 3 years since you joined

wait...how do you know this?

[Shirou]

Shirou have you even scumcased me or is this omgus

I swear to god you can't be actually reading the game...

Spoiler: My progression on Meg through my past posts. Dunno if I missed any.

if it's not a hard scumread why are you vanity voting on her rather than trying to settle for one of the top consensus suspects?

We aren't eliminating Ydrasse today, I think that should be clear from the gamestate right now?

You've also read the entire game up to now but literally no comment on imaginality/redtea dilemma? That's weird as fuck tbh.

The last time you mentioned redtea was on your two initial readlists and they were on the bottom, but you doesn't seem interested in their wagon at all?

You read the game but rather than have any takes about the main topics you only vote ydrasse that is currently sick and that's it?

you didn't try to interact with anyone or anything before I called you out. You voted Ydrasse and that was it.

I think town for sure would have had something to say about the two top wagons that had been discussed so much...but he didn't say or do anything other than a vanity vote on Ydrasse. I can't help but be weirded out by that.

[Shirou]

how can it be omgus when I began scum reading you first anyway

like wtf

are you attempting to create a narrative here?

if anything YOUR vote/suspicious is more of a OMGUS than mine.

[Shirou]

Shirou: "oh I scum read you *votes*"

Meg: "hah! I scum read you as well!"

Shirou: "ogey I'll entertain you"

*later on*

Meg: "Are you OMGUS'ing me?"

someone explain the logic here as if I'm 5

[Shirou]

I don't see how that's AI

Like that doesn't even read like a scumread either

I'm starting to laugh now

You're basically just sitting there saying that both my cases on you and Tejate aren't AI because...you simply disagree on it, that's it. They are invalid because you think differently about it apparently, even when most people are voting/suspecting Tejate and I assume it's for similar reasons to mine.

and how can it NOT be a scum read when I say more or less "if (you) were town I think you would..." about you?

Your arguments/points are so...sigh

[Shirou]

I don't feel like continuing this conversation is +town regardless of your alignment at this point.

do you think I care about whether it's +town or not?

do you think I care about whether I'm being oh so helpful for the collective town or not

what I DO CARE about is deciding whether I should death tunnel your slot or not because not only I feel bad-faith is all over your approach on my slot, but also because even if you're town I don't trust your judgement on other slots very much if that's your "case"/"read" on me, and your logic is so alien that it tilts me as well.

do you want me to write you a better case on myself so that you can adopt it rather than the kind of stuff you've been using? I could consider being that generous I think

[Shirou]

Megs coming in and settling on a scumread of the same slot that NSG voiced a generalized "be careful about automatically townreading him" kinda bugs me, though. It makes me wonder if there's a greater tactic in play. e.g., greater than the 2 slots most obviously involved.

You know, I wasn't mentioning it because I'm not sure it applies here but...trivia fact?

Most people that compliment my play in games end up turning out to be scum. It didn't happen that many times overall but it always get me a bit sadder every time it happens like that. I end up being a bit happy someone compliments for something only for it to turn out they said it for likely in-game advantage...

well, but I do think this would be an opinion that town!NSG would likely have, that I shouldn't be town read that easily, so I don't think it applies here perhaps.

Mostly a random trivia fact which is why I didn't say it up until now. I kinda secretly want NSG slot to have been town though, I felt a bit happy about what she said even though it's definitely an overestimation of how much effort I would put in a scum game nowadays.

Meg isn't helping me have a good opinion of the slot though...

[Shirou]

oh happy birthday Fua.

[Shirou]

(standing at the edge of the room) fight fight fight

come fight with us too ydra!

nothing better to feel like you've completely recovered your energy than to punch someone in the gut or face you know?

You'll feel the energy spreading through your arms and legs again, and when you get punched as a reaction, your sense of smell/taste is also gonna let you feel the blood running through your hurt mouth and broken nose. It's quite something.

[Shirou]

Does anyone have experience with shirou's playstyle as town/scum?

yes

as town shirou is town

as scum shirou is scum

I hope it was helpful ty very much for reading

[Shirou]

It's in 2 hours, actually.

Oh sorry, I forget my timezone sometimes.

[Shirou]

that is true BUT i have no stances. i'm a free agent of chaos just trying to make everyone go wild

Oh wow, where is our black winged man when a new joker arises?

p-edit: why? feel like voting him or with him?

[Shirou]

Does anyone have experience with shirou's playstyle as town/scum?

actually to answer this seriously the answer is kinda no

The unique person that had decent experience with me was NSG. GL's game against scum!me is too old, and Implosion has the ~best~ experience out of everyone left but he still only saw me as scum once, never as town.

[Shirou]

It was quite amusing to me to see how NSG would develop her read on me you know? Especially if she was town. It was one of the fun points of this game for me. Now there's only teasing implosion sometimes but he's probably gonna keep me in this null-ish zone for the entire game perhaps, even if he ends up voting me or trusting me, I feel he would put me in null-town or null-scum zone rather than settle his read on me...maybe?

"Shirou sounds town at first glance but...*gasp*, he may be scum!" never fails to make me giggle a bit.

[Shirou]

wait I was shitposting so I forgot but this is important

please reply

Alright I know it's been like 3 years since you joined

wait...how do you know this?

[Shirou]

VOTE: Meg

I think I'm changing my mind on who is the best slot to yeet today

[Shirou]

I'm kinda spending way more time and effort in this game than I planned to...

[Shirou]

the more I think about it though the more I like the ~thing~ about NSG...ugh

if Meg was only Meg I would have entered death tunnel mode already I think, but...

I'll go sleep and mull over this.

[Shirou]

It prevents 1 potential mis-elim from a cop claim (which is not necessarily reliable)

you...you do realize we can't have that many miseliminations so saving us from one is actually almost the entire point of cops and why they are considered so powerful right...?

(it's also because they can get "a hard to read player's alignment correctly" sure, but I feel that's more of a secondary use since not every playerlist has one player like that?)

Well, either way I probably should stop talking about this "cop Shirou" stuff, it probably creates more WIFOM than it helps at this point I guess.

[Shirou]

By the way Meg, Tejate now seems to be tying GL/Implo alignments in a 50/50 as well. Are you going to have an issue with that or is it be another case of displaying some degree of selective bias from you?

[Shirou]

Happy birthday fua and happy scumday Shirou!

thanks NQ

also yes, happy birthday² fua.

[Shirou]

wait I was shitposting so I forgot but this is important

please reply

Alright I know it's been like 3 years since you joined

wait...how do you know this?

[Shirou]

Happy scumday shirou

ty

u said you joined in 2018 earlier this game

oh true sorry

this one was my derp, I thought I hadn't talked about that at all

[Shirou]

VOTE: Tejate

/shrug

back here for now

[Shirou]

I kinda thought there was a non-zero chance that you knowing I was from 2018 was some kind of ~slip~ that perhaps someone had mentioned me in scum PT or something, because even if we mentioned early in the game my original account being Fumuki (2018 join date), it would be a bit hard to believe that you would have looked it up due to your activity level. I completely missed in my skim in my own ISO the fact I had by myself mentioned my OC being from 2018.

It's kinda silly but at the same time considering NSG was the one that began introducing paranoia about my slot, I thought it had a non-zero chance of being the case.

p-edit: no it's more like I'm torn between you two and my energy levels are low so I'm defaulting to the easier option again for now. I think I could switch back to Meg at any time. Although huh...I didn't find your take on Implo vs GL something positive, but it would be a bit hypocritical of me to condemn you tying up slots by this point. I think in this point specifically it may be my confirmation bias talking from the other stuff on your ISO.

Your suggestion about copping is also kinda...bad but at the same time an understandable opinion that town!you could have. Then your read didn't change a lot to me in the last pages.

[Shirou]

sigh

to be honest I just don't know who to really vote for

I feel I've good reasons to suspect both you/Meg but at the same time the feeling that it feels like a similar gamestate to D1 Imag wagon (that flipped town...) keeps creeping upon me in the back of my mind. Maybe I'm being pocketed somewhere but it's also increasingly hard to believe that because quite a bit of my null towns/town leans in my last read list (that I'm not sure I posted here), ended up getting innos or claimed. Unconfirmed there's now only like...Implo/Ydra I think? Ydra is meh at the moment but I still kinda like Implo posting so far therefore if I'm being pocketed/mislead into the Meg/Tejate/GL/Morph dilemma, where am I wrong exactly?

If we don't start doubting the claims there's little room for scum to be elsewhere?

[Shirou]

Prodding redtea.

It's a bit mean but if the slot will keep going like this I may hope that they don't pick up the prodge...

if redtea is town, it's even more likely that one of Meg/Tejate is scum and it's of vital importance the slot to be here for us to attempt to solve it...today elimination can quite literally change the direction this game goes.

[Shirou]

I think GL is asking around if we would be willing to switch to redtea and my personal opinion is fairly consistent to what I said before: yes and no.

I still think that Meg/Tejate are the best eliminations for today so I'll probably stay in those wagons for longer, but if later it feels like it's hopeless to get an elimination on those wagons (or maybe I change my opinion on them/redtea?), I probably would happily compromise on redtea.

The same goes to GL/Morph for today, that's why I said redtea was added to "that" pool.

I think redtea wouldn't be a bad flip, neither would GL/Morph, but in redtea case for example, I feel like it's a question of "there's less reasons to town read them" than "there's more reasons to scum read them". Sort of? I'm not saying it's not reasonable to scum read redtea for certain points that GL brought up, I just think that it's something that it's also relatively easy to explain by assuming he's simply a disengaged townie.

On the other hand I've Tejate/Meg which have done stuff that I look and think "how can I explain this from a town pov?", and the justifications...just get harder, I think especially for Tejate on hindsight. A lot of Meg's play could be explained if they are a ~stubborn~/~tunnely~ townie, but Tejate explanation that he would be a more ~timid~ player due to also his inexperience doesn't vibe well with his other game so...it feels worse.

After reading this you may think why am I still torn between Meg/Tejate then if I do think that Tejate is kinda worse objectively speaking?

Well...I'm kinda human, I've my confirmation biases okay? I simply do really dislike Meg's posts vibe. From the weird logic in some of their accusations to back their entrance where they simply said nothing of relevance about the major topics in the game. Sometimes the more logically sound answer isn't the correct one you know? Mafia isn't math.

[Shirou]

I'm interested to see if redtea slot will be replaced out

[Shirou]

I think the unique warning/hot take I've about redtea right now is towards GL

Sure I would be okay with compromising on redtea if the slot isn't replaced/completely change their approach here, but if redtea flips town, I do think I'll give GL a scum lean.

If redtea is town I feel like the probability that this is scum!GL trying to redirect us into the LHF is quite high, if one of Meg/Tejate are scum.

GL, you seem to have an issue the ~confidence~ that implosion has about redtea being town, but conversely I kinda am still a bit puzzled about how ~confident~ you're about their slot being scum.

I'm saying confidence weirdly like that because I know both of you already said it's not exactly confidence, but the thing is implosion is almost always assuming redtea is town or at least not a very good vote right now (kinda?), and it feels you're mostly always assuming they're scum/a very good vote, since D1.

It feels like you're in fact both doing a similar thing, but each on a different side of the coin more or less? But I suppose since I agree with implosion points/logic/pov more than yours (and I town lean him), to me personally it means your posts bug me more than implo's.

[Shirou]

I think the Meg/Tejate/Redtea trio are really important to solve this game perhaps

if all of the above are town, gun to my head it would be GL/Morph/Ydra, but...I do think that there's at least one scum in the above, and understanding who that scum is, may be the most important thing to solve the rest of the PL?

[Shirou]

also one last thing

it's an unfair take I know but even if I'll give scum points for GL if redtea flips town, I don't think I'll give that many town points if they flip scum...

it's like I said before, the confidence that redtea is scum seems a bit overdone to me...I would still suspect that GL may or not have thrown his most fragile teammate under the bus to gain town cred.

[Shirou]

Implo...beyond what I already said about Tejate, I think only if I quoted certain posts and talked about it, which would take a lot of energy/time to be honest. At the moment I don't have enough in me to do it but maybe demand from me again later, maybe I'll have enough energy for it.

Hm, sorry I can't be more useful, I'm kinda burned out of this game atm.

[Shirou]

also one last thing

it's an unfair take I know but even if I'll give scum points for GL if redtea flips town, I don't think I'll give that many town points if they flip scum...

it's like I said before, the confidence that redtea is scum seems a bit overdone to me...I would still suspect that GL may or not have thrown his most fragile teammate under the bus to gain town cred.

I will say in response to this

just cop me if I'm going to get this level of paranoia about me all game, where even BOP won't suffice apparently

please cop me, I'm directly asking for it

:thonking:

[Shirou]

I already said I agree with that stance yeah, I dunno what you guys want from me in regards to redtea though. I had him in the same pool as GL/Morph. Did I ever try anything on GL/Morph today?

They were always slots that I would compromise on but not really pursue from the start. If you guys want to eliminate redtea go ahead, wagon them and make me compromise when there's not enough votes for Tejate/Meg.

But you want me to switch from my preferred wagons to redtea right now? Not happening just like I wouldn't switch so easily from here to GL/Morph I think, unless something changes about my opinion on their slots.

/shrug

this game is kinda tiresome.

[Shirou]

me not trying to pressure redtea as tejate said in their last few posts is just

false

as well:

Redtea can you like do something useful by the way?

I know I said it was a +town thing for you in D1 but like...this is D2 already and your ISO is as empty as a blank sheet paper?

It doesn't even feel like you're trying to play the game if I'm allowed to perhaps be a bit mean.

I genuinely feel like it wouldn't be a terrible idea to vote you if this keeps being the case not because I'm confident you flip scum or anything, but because I would refuse to lose to that ISO if you're ever scum here (even if the probability was/is very low due to meta)?

I kinda feel like redtea may be intentionally doubling down on the "I'm not putting effort into reads here" thingy here after I said it was a ~towny~ thing for them, and I do think *that* could be argued as something scummy even when considering their meta. I expected them to do something, at some point, but it doesn't seem to be coming out.

redtea still didn't reply/react to that so I'm not sure saying anything more would be useful

[Shirou]

I feel as though you are a player who seems to feel that their calls are best when you're making them off of interactions between themselves and you. Correct? Is that your issue with finalizing your read on redtea?

huh? no actually I think I'm at my best when I just leave people alone and analyze how they decide to act on their own, without me pressuring them. However, I'm not always patient enough to play like that especially in early game, but also there's certain stuff like the whole thing I engaged you on in D1, where no matter how much I wait, you would never talk about that without me engaging you on that directly.

Basically I try to only engage people when I feel it's necessary or when I get too impatient/riled up. There's in fact a slot other than redtea right now that I'm secretly thinking about but not mentioning or pressuring.

[Shirou]

That's why I wanted to clarify. Out of curiosity, what do you think of redtea's posts today? I'm sure I don't need to explain my opinion on them.

I think I wish they didn't exist so the slot could be replaced for someone that would be readable...

about what I think of they alignment-wise...meh. still as disengaged and contentless as ever and no I don't think that's necessarily scummy, it can really be someone from either alignment drowning in apathy.

[Shirou]

This redtea thing is boring me so much that I feel like voting them just to get this over

We flip them, if it flips town we begin discussing Meg/Tejate. If it flips scum you can do whatever you want.

Maybe it's not a terrible idea if it's like that.

p-edit: oh my

[Shirou]

GL my suspicious on you has nothing to do with whether I think you bus or protect team mates as scum. That's just the complete wrong approach to understand it.

What irks me is how much confidence and how much you're digging in redtea. Whether it flips town or scum is just tools to try to make sense of it and if there's good scum motivation or not to do it.

[Shirou]

I mean I guess the simple explanation is he just doesn't like my confidence on redtea, but I really hate how he's using that to find a way in which I am scum regardless of what the alignments are of any of the other players involved. like just vote me instead if that's your position?

no I trust a cop to check you later

if you're town you're valuable

[Shirou]

well goodnight

p-edit: that's why I said I don't think it's that bad if redtea flips scum compared to town, but it would still make sense for scum!GL to keep talking about redtea to get towncred imo. I need to sleep now, maybe later I can talk more

[Shirou]

amazonian: we're not online at the same time
morph: we're not online at the same time

this excuse is wild

[Shirou]

like now that's something to scum read the slot for

what the fuck do you mean you need to be online with the person at the same time to have a read on them...?

That applies to most slots, you are almost never here, neither I've seen you ever mention that in town games. Do you've any examples of you saying that as town?

[Shirou]

just realized that the only solid-but-without-preprepared-text-evidence anti-associative thoughts i have are gl-shirou when i know i could find more so: non cohesive anti-associatives picture incoming tomorrow probably

this way of sorting feels kinda...so weird

I've never seen you completely ditch having reads to go for "anti-associative sorting"

although at the same time it's still such a wild and weird approach on how to play scum

[Shirou]

That's what I meant by saying some stuff it's not optimal to explain early though

if redtea had posted that when I hadn't said anything about giving town points for his nonchalant attitude, I think I would give they a solid town lean atm. I don't think you guys realize how much of a wild approach to scumming they are doing right now if they are scum. In all my 3 years of mafiascum I've NEVER seen a scum slot in the middle of D2 straight up say "I've no reads, so". If anything I've a scum tell about how *often* scum gives reads earlier/faster than town, because they are trying to look town/be a good two shoes most of the time.

However when I had already stepped up for him and explained why I thought it was towny behavior, I can see and maybe even think it's likely that this is so outlandish that it may very well be scum!redtea doubling on the "I've no content to give" point.

[Shirou]

if redtea has consistently played like this without me saying anything about why I was feeling positive about they, I would have been fine to literally die in the slot place perhaps, I think I would have a rather confident town lean on them.

Unhappily I was forced to explain and now can't help but feel like they may perhaps be doubling down on what I found towny, or so.

[Shirou]

if redtea has

had*

[Shirou]

/shrug

maybe I changed my mind, like fua saying this gamestate about talking so continuously about reads on redtea is so annoying and tiresome that I would rather potentially miseliminate and get this over with than to keep up this charade, especially when redtea posts are gradually getting worse and the commitment to giving content just isn't there

VOTE: redtea

I don't believe that much on this flipping scum though. It may, it may not. Their last post is kinda rather bad though so maybe consensus on them was right in d1.

[Shirou]

There? Happy?

Now can we tone down on the walls of "your read on redtea is wrong/scummy!" for a bit from both sides, vote redtea and end the day or something?

I would be fine with that. I doubt there's much more to discuss today if we're simply doing redtea, the big consensus scum read from D1.

[Shirou]

there's not even much to discuss in the first place

like, what do we exactly talk about redtea when we've talked about most of their posts already? There's the recent string of posts to dissect but that's it.

Just vote the slot and get this over with, I'm getting lethargic about this game being like this.

IF they flip town though, we also should turbo eliminate one of GL/Meg/Tejate tomorrow imo.

That's it have a nice day everyone.

[Shirou]

turbo eliminations are always bad especially when there's a decent chance at least one person will have a cop result tomorrow

thank you for coming to my TED talk

this is so LAMIST that it hurts the soul...

even if we all collectively agreed about doing fast eliminations (which I doubt will ever happen), surely enough there would still be time for result claims.

[Shirou]

there's not even much to discuss in the first place

like, what do we exactly talk about redtea when we've talked about most of their posts already? There's the recent string of posts to dissect but that's it.

Just vote the slot and get this over with, I'm getting lethargic about this game being like this.

IF they flip town though, we also should turbo eliminate one of GL/Meg/Tejate tomorrow imo.

That's it have a nice day everyone.

what's with the emotional mindset here? Why are you acting like this game is so boring/bad for you?

It is boring right now GL...we've been talking about redtea since D1. Their content is more or less the same since D1. This topic is utterly exhausting to get through by this point.

This game has been too slow for me, and I don't think I'm the unique one feeling lethargic about this either, I've seen Ydra, Ceph and Morph talk about feeling similarly.

[Shirou]

it feels like GL is testing the waters to see if I'm viable or not and that sounds like the first distinctively scummy thing about his ISO to me, as in, I'm not sure the last few posts would be worded as they've if he was town? Maybe it's confirmation bias though.

Dunno, it really feels like testing waters and beforehand positioning himself to suspect me in D3, regardless of how today goes.

I would have something to say about this but I'm gonna wait until tomorrow to see if it actually happens or not. I think with this suspicious gathering around me I'm not in danger of being nightkilled anymore I guess?

[Shirou]

also uh, I think I retract my scum read on Meg. I can't talk about it yet again² but hm...I'm not sure his entrance is that scummy anymore considering his profile, and his entrance/refusal of talking more about their thoughts was the biggest reason I suspected them, the weird logic used on the push on me was kinda secondary all things considered, even if it was the most...?annoying? part of their slot to me...

Hmm, yeah. I don't town read the slot though, but I'm not sure what to make of it right now and I'm too lazy to do what I could ~theoretically~ do. I'm out of gas for this game pretty much.

[Shirou]

I'm trying my best to hide my annoyance on the scum reads, because I think getting annoyed at it right now would be a bit too toxic even for me, especially since I'm still somewhat trying to play this a bit more ~chill~ (the Meg stuff was uh...an accident), and also I kinda think GL/Tejate may be scum so they would simply be naturally playing to their wincon by this shade on me, would be a bit silly to get annoyed at that.

However...I feel like people are kinda having their cake and eating it too in how they approach my slot. "Oh, we should have more paranoia about Shirou due to what NSG's said", at the same time that you're suspecting for...uh, what? if redtea flips town it's some dumb hardcore whiteknighting and if redtea is scum it's some really obvious associative considering how much I openly defended they/said I was suspicious of they but still would have refused to bus until later?

and if I was defending him/trying to protect the slot (which is such a DUMB thing to do here if we were partners), why would I not continue to fight his wagon by trying to wagon someone else harder?

Like, can you decide at least? I'm fine either way, whether you think I'm this ~below-average~ scum player that does this kind of dumb stuff or whether you are paranoid of me being really skilled as scum as NSG mentioned, but you need to

CHOOSE

.

Regardless of what redtea is gonna flip and how my slot is gonna be treated from now on, if there ever comes a point in the future where we've put this past us, I'm hard scum reading and being really obnoxious to anyone that suspects me for this redtea associative but still wants to say they are "paranoid" of me later because of what NSG said.

This entire "shirou stance about redtea is weird" is okay as long as you think my scum game is meh imo. If you trust NSG's words, it's such a dumb point honestly.

[Shirou]

I would be kinda sacrificing my slot trustworthiness for a buddy that...is simply not here even trying to properly play the game.

Maybe it's arrogant but if I was scum here, however early today I had gotten a miselimination but was still mostly town read by most people. I would have no problem keeping my content ~safe~ as to not endanger the consensus trust on me, and I do believe that considering how high of a town read I was for most people, I would be a very good candidate to endgaming if I was scum?

Why the hell would I in any shape or form sacrifice even a bit of that consensus trust for a slot that literally everyone suspects? It's such a...dumb thing to do.

Even if redtea flips town, I'm not dumb enough to think that such hardcore whiteknighting gives town points rather than suspicious in this playerlist either.

All I had to do here as scum regardless of redtea alignment, was to do a song and dance about reconsidering they when GL first mentioned whether I was down to vote the slot, and begin talking to him about implosion/redtea as if I'm being slowly convinced of what he's saying, and in the end pioneer the wagon with him for D2.

/shrug

[Shirou]

[Shirou]

UNVOTE:

GL let me ask you a question before deciding for sure what doing today:

what would be your read on me if redtea flipped town?

[Shirou]

I was gonna wait until tomorrow but I think maybe I'm ready to bet the entire game on something depending on how you answer the above

[Shirou]

yeah, GL is scum

I'm a night 3 cop and I'm leashing my cop on GL

we're no eliminating tomorrow

if I die tonight you eliminate GL or you're game throwing

that's kinda it.

In my opinion we should also stop following this and just eliminate ydrasse but /shrug

If my result on GL is a inno I can self-vote if he wishes me to. I'm pretty sure it's not going to be an inno though.

By the way that's why I was hinting that I "trusted a cop to check on GL". Because duh, I was the cop and I was gonna check him.

I kinda think it's a waste to check him right now tbh though because we could just eliminate him and me check someone else but eh, I don't have enough energy to try to convince people of that.

Also I think redtea is town due to the fact he's pushing it yeah

[Shirou]

oh why am I claiming

BECAUSE GL IS SCUM

and I don't have enough energy to convince you guys in this slow ass game that he's scum, so If I die not only I get the easy way to confirm my slot that's increasingly looking like a miselimination, but also still manage to shade GL.

If GL is town I don't see why scum would nightkill me here. Tomorrow like this they would get a free no elimination day which would remove the advantage we have because we protected a townie correctly, and GL if town would still tunnel me anyway and miseliminate me even if I got an inno. "What if GL changed his mind". I think if GL changes his mind he's also scum so...?

Meg may be town

Tejate may or not be town

Right now gun to my head it's 3 out of GL/Morph/Ydra/Tejate

[Shirou]

why the fuck would I ask you to self-vote if you have an inno on me

KKKKKKKKKKK

WHY YOU THINK SCUM ME NEVER CLAIMS AN INNO ON YOU TO TRY TO WIFOM?

This is just you panicking on the fact I'm gonna have a guilty

My objective as scum would be to endgame, killing you or not is irrelevant

[Shirou]

If I claim a guilty on you as scum I'm trading my slot 1:1 for you, but if I claim an inno as scum and get you to town read me, I'm closer to endgaming especially if no one would believe my guilty at all as it looks like at the moment

I think both GL/Morph may be scum right now, and at least one if not both of Meg/Tejate is kinda being derp on their read on me, so I think not delaying the claim to tomorrow is the correct play.

p-edit: wait a min

[Shirou]

WHY YOU THINK SCUM ME NEVER CLAIMS AN INNO ON YOU TO TRY TO WIFOM?

uh, yeah. Correct play for scum on D3 is to claim a guilty and use it to brute force a miselim, especially if we've already miselimmed twice

if you're scum, claiming an inno is a bad move 100% of the time

/shrug

disagree but again, we've disagreed during all game and I just think you're simply scum so

[Shirou]

it's a desperation move because I think redtea is just scum and Shirou is scum realizing he's losing

kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

IT'S HILARIOUS THAT YOU THINK YOU COULD CORNER ME WITH THAT IF I WAS SCUM

HILARIOUS

[Shirou]

The reason I'm doing this is because even if I go down I'm trying my best to bring GL with me.

After redtea likely flips town GL is gonna do the whole "OH SHIROU AND IMPLO WERE SO SCUMMY BY DEFENDING REDTEA" and try to get the last two miseliminations to win

I'm not fucking sitting while I watch that. If I call cop tomorrow I don't have energy enough to convince you guys away from the argument he's gonna use that "it's a desperation claim to buy a no elimination day!" either. I bet money he would get another free miselimination tomorrow on either me or implo from the way this is going.

We can also do this:

We can no eliminate today, and eliminate redtea tomorrow, and if I die you eliminate GL next. I would be fine with it as well.

[Shirou]

Tejate if you think I'm scum here it's exactly the reason you would lose to me as scum

This is so out of my scum play now that I don't even know what to say

either way the important is:

I propose we no eliminate today, if I die tonight you eliminate GL for god's sake, and if I survive, we eliminate redtea or whoever you consensus want, doctors protect me that night and I get a result.

[Shirou]

yeah, if Shirou is town, correct play is just not claim here, flip redtea, if it's town just cop me and out the result tomorrow

I can't think of a town reason to try to claim first here, and I'm really trying. he should not be this confident in town!redtea / scum!GL

???????????

I'M NIGHT 3 COP, NOT NIGHT 2

Tomorrow you would simply push me and there's already Meg/Tejate/You for a wagon. If one of Morph/Ydra is scum, and I think they are, there's almost enough to miseliminate me there and I've 0 energy for this game.

The reason I'm doing this is because it was obvious from today that if you're scum, redtea is likely town and you're already setting up implo/me for miseliminations, and if I claim cop there, you would say it's simply a desperation move to buy a no elimination day.

[Shirou]

I AM BLASTING IN THIS GAME

WELCOME

[Shirou]

Shirou, every new post you make makes me wish I could vote for redtea twice.

Also welcome Enchant.

blah blah blah

even if redtea was scum for any weird reason, I believe GL is still flipping scum anyway. I don't care if redtea goes first or not as long as we no eliminate tomorrow OR you trust me after their flip and just eliminate GL.

[Shirou]

what's theoretically optimal doesn't matter once you realize GL is very very likely scum and you're gonna let him endgame from the way things are going.

The more consensus suspects seem like redtea...implo and now me?

yeah that's a mafia win in my book

[Shirou]

GL you're confirmed scum to me and you should treat me as confirmed scum to you

and if we're wrong on that we lose the game gg

kkkkkkkk

that's it, it would be funny at least

I don't think I'm wrong though.

[Shirou]

How are you a consensus suspect? It's still mainly myself and GL that are expressing suspicion. From my view, you still are extremely unlikely to get elimmed without a cop claiming result on you.

redtea is, maybe even implo, but how are you one?

You/GL/Meg would likely vote either me or implo tomorrow/following days as far as I can see

and like I said, I think there's one scum in Morph/Ydra at least so that would already be four

One of Ceph/fua would likely be able to be convinced as well.

If you can't see that idk what to tell you.

GL has conveniently just the right amount of suspects to endgame as scum here. Coincidence? hmmm, sure.

[Shirou]

funny thing is, I know for a fact that you are!

it would be funny then

/shrug

[Shirou]

oh lol, you're making the even more convenient claim

yep

that's what you would use tomorrow to miseliminate me

so

I'm claiming today

[Shirou]

If I'm scum with redtea as you all seem to be thinking, the worst that can happen by no eliminating one day and eliminating redtea on the other, is that you'll lose the possibility to get one extra elimination, but you'll still have nailed down two scum either way, and would have used NONE of the remaining cop checks on either of us

If I'm truly a town cop and GL is scum, if you eliminate me before I get the check on GL, you're basically gonna be likely two mislims down (me and redtea) and have no confirmed scum.

[Shirou]

If I'm scum doing this I would already be cornered. You all would lose little from no eliminating for one day.

If I'm town though, you're massively shooting yourselves on the foot by not no eliminating one day for me to get the result.

[Shirou]

also a good reason to claim today was to see if I get NK'd or not.

If I do, can you please just vote GL? please and thank you.

p-edit: wait a min

[Shirou]

If I'm scum doing this I would already be cornered. You all would lose little from no eliminating for one day.

If I'm town though, you're massively shooting yourselves on the foot by not no eliminating one day for me to get the result.

Do you think redtea ever gets copped?

Do you think redtea ever contributes enough content to be readable?

I'm not sure about whether redtea is or not worth a cop check, although in my opinion...kinda no

Also I don't think redtea will ever do content enough to be readable by themselves, but what I'm doing, is betting the game that this is scum!GL that conveniently has just enough suspects prepared to win the game [Redtea/Shirou/Implo] and it also doesn't matter if any of those flip town or scum for him, he's just gonna follow that chain and if he's scum and that is all town (I know I'm already town and think implo is, so redtea is also likely imo now?), he endgames town here.

I'm giving redtea the town read by the fact that GL must be scum in this game for me therefore redtea is one of the three mislims that he and the buddies needs to win the game. I felt his engagement with both me and implo were disengenuous, redtea to a certain extent as well, but I didn't want to push him too much because I planned to cop the guy, until...I realized it would be probably too late by then considering how people have been buying into his arguments.

[Shirou]

I'm a bit confused, what exactly is your position around eliminating redtea today?

I don't have enough energy to try convincing people to not eliminate redtea today or tomorrow while I wait for my result, so I'm kinda concending /shrug.

I guess also...there's like...low chance that redtea can still be one of your buddies and you're bussing to shade implo/me later so /shrug.

I just think you're scum basically GL, redtea is more likely town than not but it doesn't matter that much if we mislim them or not as long as I get my result on you, or I die therefore confirm myself and your slot gets under scrutinity.

[Shirou]

like gamethrowingly bad if you're town

I do make this kind of gamble yeah, also by the way, every time I did it I was TOWN!

I did it on Mafia Team 2021 in fact. I was willing to self-vote in the next day if Auro flipped town, but yup he was scum and we won the game.

I can definitely be wrong here but I'm still willing to do that, and I'm not sure why you're trying to say it's gamethrowing exactly here.

If you were town, I could bet money that tomorrow you would vote me and keep riling people up for me, and when I claimed n3 cop you would say I'm trying to buy a no elimination out of desperation.

You would likely miseliminate me anyway as town so I don't get why I'm doing anything different here?

I'm also saying I'm ok with killing redtea due to apathy and the fact he could still kinda be your buddy.

You're so hung up on redtea when I'm saying basically "whatever, kill them". Like, if you guys want, kill them? I don't care that much even if it wasn't my preference to how today should go.

You want to frame this as if I'm doing all this to protect redtea when I'M NOT, I'm doing this to increase the odds of killing your slot GL, without me needing to spend one entire week here hyperposting and casing you.

I'm taking the lazy way, yes. No energy left.

[Shirou]

the idea that you're willing to bet the game on me being scum without knowing redtea's alignment is just so contrived

See? this?

You're also trying to tie your alignment to redtea.

EVEN IF REDTEA IS SCUM I THINK YOU JUST BUSSED.

Redtea is such a fucking OBVIOUS BUS, and I believe at least implo is town, so the play here would be to do redtea and shade me/implo to get two mislims later.

I'm trying to kill you here EVEN IF REDTEA IS SCUM, because I find your posts/engagement towards me and implo disingenuous.

I just THINK that redtea is more likely town than not due to how you're pushing them, but more importantly, I think you're scum in almost all scenarios in this game so I'm kinda just gambling on it

/shrug

[Shirou]

like stop bringing up redtea

whatever kill them don't kill them

I just think you're scum, and if you're town you would miseliminate me anyway GL, so what I'm doing is trying to claim to:

1) Either get NK'd and confirm my slot.

2) Get me result on you and either confirm you as scum or as town.

I dunno if you guys respect my scum game or not, and I don't care if you do or not, but if I had to say one of my tools as scum is kinda ~sensing~ what slots are gonna be eliminated or not. I just feel like tomorrow if we kept going in that road was gonna be people voting either me or implo tomorrow, and people not believing my claim that I'm a cop if it was when I was brought to E-1.

Sure, maybe I'm wrong and tomorrow would have played differently, but I don't want to RISK it. I'm trying to make it an almost guarantee that either I'll not be a miselimination by NK, or even if I'm miseliminated, I'm gonna be able to get my result.

Why claim today now and not tomorrow?

MOMENTUM!

It's a really dumb thing but many town PRs are killed thoughtlessly even if it doesn't sound optimal because they wait to claim at E-1 and by then people are really confident they're scum trying to save their own skins.

If I waited until a E-1 to claim my role, the narrative would be I'm trying to do all I can to help the scum team even if it's just buying a no elimination.

I'm foreseeing that's how tomorrow could likely turn out, so I'm trying to rewrite history before it even begins by claiming today!

[Shirou]

The reason I'm doing this is because

it was obvious from today that if you're scum, redtea is likely town

and you're already setting up implo/me for miseliminations, and if I claim cop there, you would say it's simply a desperation move to buy a no elimination day.

Redtea is such a fucking OBVIOUS BUS

, and I believe at least implo is town, so the play here would be to do redtea and shade me/implo to get two mislims later.

lmfao

You're just reaching now

I still said in the post that redtea is more likely town than not by how you're pushing him

but IF redtea is scum, he's an obvious bus. And you've been shading the slot since D1.

It's that simple to understand my point but you're trying to make it look shady.

[Shirou]

ok cool story

still don't see your vote back on redtea where it belongs

because I think no elimination is better for today?

have you read any of my posts?

what if I do redtea today and people just say "yeah let's not do that no elimination"

no elimination first and then I vote the consensus

/shrug.

[Shirou]

Nah mafia claims early to save their skins, because batshit insane people with hammers are mostly town, as mafia not brave to do that.

???

why would they claim early to save their skins when their skins aren't in danger at that moment?

claiming like I'm right now is definitely weird though, I'll give you that.

[Shirou]

I literally do not think anyone was suggesting that but yourself.

yeah, this... i don't know where ydra got the idea we were even contemplating this and i thought the victim complex about it was pretty strange

same

[Shirou]

i really just want to imagine a world where me, shirou, and gl are all town. bonus points if redtea is also town. it's just such a truly beautiful dumpster fire to imagine.

MOOD

It's gonna be super funny but I'm not talking much about that hypothetical for funsies because GL would try to shade even that I think, regardless of his alignment

/shrug

kkkkk

I think it would be super funny if all of us are town and we're doing all this. Scum would be laughing hard in their PTs by now in that world I think.

...I just hope you aren't pocketing me implo...

[Shirou]

i really just want to imagine a world where me, shirou, and gl are all town. bonus points if redtea is also town. it's just such a truly beautiful dumpster fire to imagine.

the issue is I don't see any scum in that world

exactly GL

so real talk, supposing you are town, can you understand it's not exactly gamethrowing for me to do this?

Even if I played tomorrow, my read on implo wouldn't likely change, so it would still be you vs Me imo, and even if you were gonna do something else, I would still likely jump on until you began pushing me back. I know I'm town and even if redtea is scum I believe implo is town, so even if redtea ever flips scum I still think you simply bussed rather than implo is one of the scum.

There's Meg/Tejate/Ydra/Morph sure, but uh, I kinda think maybe Meg/Tejate aren't scum together, so although not impossible you're town, due to your posts I'm also very confident you're scum because there's barely anyone else to be scum in my pov with my assumptions.

You can still believe it's scummy, etc, but like...don't call it gamethrow. I'm town but I'm not gamethrowing. Even if there may have been alternatives where I could just have put effort in trying to 1v1 you tomorrow, I simply don't have the energy for that.

I'm using all the energy left on me right now, and going off to the sun to enjoy my birthday tomorrow, and I want to stop caring for this game for a bit from now on rather than get in a furious 1v1 with you tomorrow regardless of redtea or anyone else's flips.

[Shirou]

also the above post isn't because I think GL is town

but because in the chance I'm ever wrong on him being scum, I don't want people to think I was gamethrowing with my play here

when you consider the fact I'm exhausted of this game, there's not that many great alternatives to what I'm doing here imo. No one would buy my n3 cop claim at E-1 tomorrow if I had lost a 1v1 due to low energy tomorrow, and GL had just confirmed that regardless of whether redtea flips town or not, he seemed to be gunning for me (and likely implo), which was the last straw for me to be cautious of doing this wacky course of actions.

p-edit: wait a min

[Shirou]

Even if I played tomorrow, my read on implo wouldn't likely change, so it would still be you vs Me imo, and even if you were gonna do something else, I would still likely jump on until you began pushing me back. I know I'm town and even if redtea is scum I believe implo is town, so even if redtea ever flips scum I still think you simply bussed rather than implo is one of the scum.

real talk, if you're town, and redtea flips scum, your read on implo doesn't change at all? why? you think it's more likely I choose to bus redtea (over pushing Meg or Tejate instead) than it is implo chooses to defend a buddy?

yeah GL...like I know I'm town and I also "defended" redtea just like implo

like

we used literally the same arguments, literally the same mindset

I can't help but see him as town on the redtea's thingy. In fact, no one OTHER than you seemed so confident on pushing redtea here?

I know I'm town and I also know if I was scum together with redtea I wouldn't have tried to step up for them, so I think the same of implo.

[Shirou]

If I get confirmed as town in a NK, I think everyone collectively at least should understand that implo stepping up for redtea a bit isn't necessarily scummy

like, idk, even if implo is scum I feel like he was trying to pocket me with that, rather than truly trying to defuse the wagon on a buddy.

[Shirou]

I still genuinely cannot believe you had the idea that you would be pushed to E-1 tomorrow. This series of posts skyrocketed your chances of that happening, not lowered them.

You underestimate how much energy I've for this game

If people began trying to engage me tomorrow I would either just replace out or stop posting mostly, which would be an even worse look

I had already stopped replying to people on certain stuff. I'm just tired right now

I think you may have fulfilled your own prophecy in trying to avoid it.

blah blah blah

I do genuinely doubt and would be amazed if people still think eliminating me before results is better than a no elimination at all right now.

I don't think the worst case scenario that I'm limmed before my result on GL happens at all. Whether I'm limmed after that is kinda irrelevant imo.

I just think you guys lose most of the time if GL is scum here so I'm trying to avoid his slot endgaming as scum in all possible scenarios, and also doing it by using the laziest approach possible rather than trying to convince people by purely arguing.

[Shirou]

Can we just kill redtea instead of talking in circles?

Not until we agree on no elimination tomorrow and if someone backs down on their words everyone should interpret it as clear scum motivation.

@everyone Do we agree on no elimination tomorrow?

[Shirou]

Why tomorrow, not today?

I wanted it for today as well but I don't think I can convince people to do it unhappily...

[Shirou]

I'm not agreeing to any pre-emptive day 3 vote before day 3. Let's see our flip and N2 cop checks, then come to a decision on day 3.

If any cop checks me or GL tonight though I feel like it's...a very non-optimal course of actions, so no other result except for a guilty would change our stances on what could be done due to results.

If there's a guilty elsewhere, sure, let's go get it, it wouldn't change a lot in that optimistic scenario, but baring a guilty I can't see how we couldn't agree on no elimination today already.

[Shirou]

ut I mean if redtea does flip scum I don't think this is exactly a winning play from Shirou-scum.

exactly

it isn't even close to a winning plan vs/compared to just playing normally and trying to survive by efforting, EVEN if I had done the dumb thing of openly defending a compromissed partner like that

/shrug

[Shirou]

VOTE: no elimination

I believe we should do this but I can vote redtea as long as most people explicitly agree with this:

@everyone Do we agree on no elimination tomorrow?

[Shirou]

/shrug

it's true that if redtea flips town there's a chance you wouldn't be able to do it even if I literally ignored your attempts to engage me, but dunno, I just feel tired of this game and listening to this redtea crap

so fucking annoying

I'm not gonna /in for engaging people again on "oh your read on redtea lol"

blah

just let me claim, either die tonight and shade GL by association or let me get the cop result that will probably be a guilty and then everyone stops posting and just vote scum

*and* if redtea is scum, with this I can still not waste my role by being the miselimination tomorrow, because surprise even if redtea is scum I'm still town and I think scum bussed so *stares at GL*

/shrug (again)

[Shirou]

VOTE: no elimination

I believe we should do this but I can vote redtea as long as most people explicitly agree with this:

@everyone Do we agree on no elimination tomorrow?

Remind me what your dying confirms?

confirms that since you're in ydra slot, and if you're town there's only like, Meg/Tejate/Implo/Morph/GL left, and since I was town it meant that Implo was siding with the townie while Meg/Tejate/GL was pushing the townie so you should just kill GL or at least Tejate imo.

[Shirou]

My slot purpose right now is just to increase the odds GL or Tejate/Meg dies and decrease the odds Implo dies imo

if Implo is scum though...well rip, sorry for the bad play here. I don't think he is though?

[Shirou]

if redtea flips town AND Shirou dies tonight I fully agree I probably would and should be the lim in that universe

I just don't think either of those things are going to happen

yeah

since this seems a bit more in good-faith as well, let me say another secret:

I'm also doing this because even as town I realize that if redtea is scum my slot should probably go, but I don't want to go before letting out my result, and if redtea flipped scum my claim by then would be meet with too much suspicious.

Therefore I'm trying to be useful for town even in the scenario where I'm wrong and GL is town/redtea scum.

[Shirou]

if Implo is scum though...well rip, sorry for the bad play here. I don't think he is though?

if you're town and redtea/implo are scum I am going to have the Master Scumhunter hat and will wear it in all our future games together

you got your lim on D1, let me have mine

Yeah

but I also want to confirm you because if you're town and I can confirm you, it kinda automatically almost means you should turbo eliminate Implo or Morph, and I don't want they fighting back against you.

I just wasn't saying this before because you weren't approaching me with a lot of good faith

[Shirou]

but uh

I kinda think you're scum trying to get as much lim as possible before going down GL kkkk

so if it was possible

I would still rather not have redtea die before you're confirmed town but /shrug

if you got confirmed as town I would be okay sheeping you in redtea/implo, or for the rest of the game if you so would like

I don't think I survive if I confirm you as town though

[Shirou]

do you agree on no elimination then GL?

and backtracing would be on you if it happens tomorrow?

I can vote redtea again if you agree maybe

I'm feeling generous and it's true I'm kinda being a jerk to you if you're town/redtea is scum

[Shirou]

I would still rather not have redtea die before you're confirmed town but /shrug

this is where I think you are just wrong

redtea flipping is good for town!you in any universe

if scum, that's a scum down
if town, that's more ammo to use against me that makes me look scummier

eh, I would rather dream of eliminating my scum read without sacrificing eliminations elsewhere. But again it's just a dream and I'm fine with voting redtea again if people agree with my conditions.

[Shirou]

do you agree on no elimination then GL?

and backtracing would be on you if it happens tomorrow?

I can vote redtea again if you agree maybe

I'm feeling generous and it's true I'm kinda being a jerk to you if you're town/redtea is scum

I meant no elimination tomorrow*

[Shirou]

Hmmm

You've a way with the words GL, I'm beginning to be a tad bit less confident you're the scum but who else would it be because for me it's not implo so I'm still copping you

blah fine

VOTE: redtea

just in the chance you're town, just like I had my D1 elimination, let's have yours I guess

[Shirou]

actually to be honest

I need to sit down and think better if there's any other better play than no elimination here

maybe there's something better to do

not sure

[Shirou]

I really feel like you guys will eliminate me tomorrow without waiting my result even if redtea flips town but.../shrug I guess

[Shirou]

by the way any N2 doctors other than Ydra/Enchant, if they exist at all, should be targeting me.

I think it's a scum claim if there's another N2 doctor (except Enchant) that doesn't target me tonight.

[Shirou]

shirou i really don't understand where that sentiment is coming from in a world with tejate raichu and megazumarill.

:thonking:

maybe you'll understand tomorrow

[Shirou]

I still think if anything pushed your slot into day 3 elim status, it's your posts in the last couple of hours about not wanting to get elimmed day 3.

we can talk more about this tomorrow

now...can someone hammer redtea I guess?

[Shirou]

last thing before I vanish into thin air:

If I die tonight AND redtea flips town, I would recommend a [GuiltyLion] > [Morph or Tejate] > [Remaining one of Morph/Tejate] elimination chain.

I feel like on the circumstance above, a guiltylion flip is almost a must, but it would be hm, ?fun? to keep that chain going until there's a town flip, if GL flips scum.

[Shirou]

if there was a vig, Meg would be the perfect slot I guess, second to redtea if they survive today elimination.

[Shirou]

if there was a vig, Meg would be the perfect slot I guess, second to redtea if they survive today elimination.

slot as in target

[Shirou]

now...



this was the last spurt of energy I had for mafia for awhile

[Shirou]

huh

I thought this was a fakeclaim from the start to be honest due to fua needing to "explain" their scum read on morph.

You...don't really explain a scum read on a guilty when you're kinda ~trusted~ by people...you just out the result and eliminate?

Hm, I still think Morph can be scum nonetheless though

[Shirou]

Hm, I dunno if we should massclaim today?

I'm not sure what it would help with

maybe coordinating cop checks if there's more cops left than docs?

but it could also expose our cops and then we don't get any more cop checks depending on how many doctors there's left...?

like, Enchant + Imagininality + Amazonian is already 3 doctors. At *most* we've other three I think? but we can only have another one.

Not sure if it's better than massclaiming tomorrow or so at all. There's already an obvious doc target for tonight I think (fua)

[Shirou]

/shrug

I think this is a bad idea but ok

either way, if we're gonna claim we're gonna leash targets no?

There's literally no point to massclaiming if we aren't gonna leash targets

[Shirou]

to be honest I think fua/tejate pushing for massclaim like this is rather scummy

I legit see little to gain by massclaiming but a lot to lose by outing our others cops in a scenario where there's only a few doctors left

[Shirou]

but /shrug again

my slot function right now is to get my result and die I guess, by NK or miselimination

but either way, so far only Tejate claimed N3 doctor

We can still hold on massclaiming. I've an idea about what to do tonight.

Massclaiming would kinda go against that but...bah, not enough energy to oppose too much on this.

[Shirou]

only a few doctors left

?

Am I missing something where this is known data?

Yeah? It's publicly known that there was already 3 doctors flipped/claimed (as long as we believe Enchant I guess? I'm kinda assuming they are town for argument sake) before Tejate's claim. If Tejate is also town by any reason, that would already be 4 doctors when we *at most* have 6. There's a good probability we've either 4 or 5, so it's possible that there won't be enough doctors from now on to protect all cop claims.

Maybe there's, maybe there isn't. I talked as a possibility mostly.

[Shirou]

I got sidetracked here for a bit but I've some stuff to confess and say

However before all of it, I want to make one other thing clear:

I'm gonna try to argue more on why I shouldn't be today elimination rather than why I should be left alive for the rest of the game I guess? I'm not too eager on going head to head with people suspicious on me for weeks if not a month if I'm that much of a consensus suspect as it seems at the moment.

Although...I'm a bit baffled. It may not look like that to you all, but I know I'm town but was still not nightkilled, so that likely means scum thinks I'm a viable miselimination (and I guess they aren't wrong?) so I was expecting someone to start pushing me, but everyone seems already kinda been considering to only vote me after today?

huh, that's...good I guess? although it also looks like scum aren't very bold. There's only people shading me rather than trying to truly lead on me today so far.

[Shirou]

Hm, on second thought I'll give you guys the director's cut version maybe

If the consensus is already that it's not very optimal to vote me today, it's good enough.

Feeling a bit lazy about writing walls, also this game has too many long posts already either way...so director's cut version it is.

[Shirou]

okay actually I just realized while typing

We really should stop the claims

I think the most beneficial thing here for town would be to risk everything to get another save in night actions

We shouldn't expose our doctors here beyond what we already did imo. We're throwing away our chance on an extra elimination by massclaiming right now.

[Shirou]

Tejate claimed but it's still okay in my opinion because it confirms fua shouldn't die tonight as long as Tejate is town, and fua night action is tonight

it's still ok to stop at the moment I think, even if kinda suboptimal compared to not claiming anything at all...?

Although there's a positive fact about this: since the designated fua doctor is already outed, any other doctors should target other players to attempt on giving us another save for an extra elimination.

[Shirou]

okay, back to typing

[Shirou]

So

Yesterday when I said I wanted to no eliminate today (day 3) it was mostly a bluff. I thought no eliminating yesterday made a bit more sense since I was unsure of redtea's alignment but favoring no elimination after their flip was kinda made up (I'll explain why below).

Me claiming early may make little sense if you approach this as if I was very confident on redtea alignment, but the truth is I didn't, that's why I ended up voting they by the end anyway. The more GL/Tejate talked, the more I began to notice that it was likely as if they were posting in preparation to what would happen after redtea's flip to me and implo. It felt very much like someone that already knew how things would play out
and were playing their trajectory for the next day.

Therefore, I believed at least one of them were scum and still kinda think so, and at the time I did scum read GL more than Tejate so I focused on him.

If I didn't claim at all, and redtea flipped town, if I did put effort (what I truly didn't want to tbh) I could perhaps fight back the predicted Tejate/GL push on me today and be in a good position to even lead on them maybe. However, I thought if I bet all my chips that redtea was flipping town, if they did flip scum (as it actually happened), I could very well become today elimination without being able to get my result.

Therefore...I gambled.

I made myself look like a bit of a madman back there to get people at least a bit suspicious of me, claimed my role, and as a bonus I proposed no elimination while focusing on shading GL.

Q: Why act like a madman to get a bit of suspicious on me?
A: If redtea flipped town, to hopefully increase the choices of living through night 2 by looking like a potential miselimination later on. If redtea flipped scum, I believe I would be under suspicious either way, so I figured I may as well hurt my slot in long-term (by making my slot almost a necessity to eliminate at some point) while benefiting me in short-term (increasing the odds I'm not the D3 elimination so that I can get my result). I'm just trying to avoid the worst possible scenario and also...something else that may or not come up later.

Q: Why claim my role early?
A: If redtea flipped town although it would still help me have an easier time pushing back any attempts to vote me today, it was more of a decision based on trying to avoid the worst-case scenario of "redtea flips scum > I'm D3 elimination before I get my cop check". It's also really true that I was and still am not in the mood to put a lot of effort on this game, so even if redtea flipped town and I was the NK for claiming cop early, I believe that would likely cause GL to die anyway, and he was going to be my cop check either way.
It was the lazy way to do it all but that's kinda why I did it as well.

Q:Why propose no elimination?
A: Because even if redtea flipped town and GL was scum for example, as long as they believed I was gonna push for a no elimination rather than an elimination on them, they had something to gain by leaving me alive for today. At minimum they could nullify our actual night advantage from a no nightkill N1, but there was also more that they could try to get from it. I did think however it wasn't that bad of a day to perhaps no eliminate yesterday, and today do redtea (so that I would be almost guaranteed to live until N3 since we would be on a dilemma), but yeah, I don't think think a no elimination is good at all.

As implo had pointed out, I thought no elimination was mechanically kinda bad before, and still think this way, so I basically lied on that yesterday for said motives above, but I also thought no eliminating yesterday and doing redtea would be an easy way to survive until N3 at least, but still, I decided to do a bit of a song and dance that I was convinced by GL and vote for someone anyway.

Q: Why do a 180º on the trajectory before that I was beginning to think redtea may be scum, to say that redtea must be GL designated miselimination?
A: Well...because I was already gonna be suspected anyway if redtea flipped scum, but if redtea flipped town that trajectory would give more ammo today to push him, or if I was NK'd, make sure that his slot is thrown in scrutinity.

TL;DR: Hmm, basically I was uncertain about what redtea was gonna flip but wanted to reduce at all costs the risk of ever being the elimination before I get my result if they flipped scum. I kinda acted a bit on some parts I guess, but either way all I ask is not to believe I'm town here necessarily, but just not to vote me today yeah.