Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[Dwlee99]

(they are still pushing this as valid, mind you)

Also this is a bald-faced lie. I literally said it didn't have merit as soon as Dunnstral posted the example of you using it as town

[Dwlee99]

I’m noticing that the way dwlee is wording stuff seems to be intentionally avoiding the assertion of their reality as town in their grammar and sentence structure and furthermore

I don't think this is true but I also don't know what this means

[Dwlee99]

Solid reason 10/10

I could kill Mala here

???

[Dwlee99]

Fwiw I unironically really dislike this post, verbal tic aside
Not sure I see why VPB would be a better lim than Dwlee or Dun, though
Guess that's what makes it a gut tunnel

Noncommittal shade

[Dwlee99]

Luke, I'm confused why you're suddenly all "I want cakez now" "I want Mala" like, I feel like a lot of focus has gone into Dunn/Dwlee, and like especially mala now, we've all established we're leaving mala alone till d3, then if she continues doing nothing, she's main focus, literally aready established. End of day is close, you don't have thoughts on Dunn/Dwlee? or do you think they're both town?

Dunn isn't even really a wagon anymore and I just quoted his (bad) defense of Dunn. He's basically made no comment on dwlee save to mention he could kill them today with no further elaboration as to why. Hasn't really given a meaningful read on dwlee at any point this game.

I could be misreading Dunnstral at this point for all I know, I think Luke's play is very scummy regardless of Dunn's alignment at this point. He doesn't look to be believably sorting anyone.

Dunn is very weak town rn for me

I prefer to let Luke live cause of the claim

What do you think of Baltar

[gorilla]

The active sum of your case against cakez is paper-thin: he was protesting about the lavar wagon was bad, and that he thought scum were pushing him because he suspected scum (a mindset that frequently comes from town.

Your case against Malakittens is that she is lurking.

These are both lazy reads that I would expect to see from someone who doesn't actually care about solving the game.

See, here he us once again misrepresenting my thoughts to make them seem ridiculous.


My thoughts on Cakez is that his reads and read confidence feel faked. That his approach felt scum motivated to look good. That he is not genuinely sorting players, especially highlighted by the way that he wrote me off as town early day 1 and appears to not be looking at me any more since.

These are all pretty strong reasons to suspect someone as being scum before we have had a scum flip to look at associative.

Buy gorilla has decided to push the narrative that I am scum with Dunn, so he is dismissing everything that i have said about every player.

Pedit: once again, he did not even ask : would scum dunn or town dunn be more likely to have given much thought to when I made the comment about looking up whether datisi was scum or town in the game I remembered.

And it is my opinion that scum dunn, already knowing that datisi and I were both town would have breezed past that post, and not thought much about it. Nor thought to bring it up as a Core Reason to think that I am town.

No, I am not doing that, and at this point I have admitted there is a possibility that I am just wrong on Dunn. I think your pots ar incredinly scummy and no not come from a place of genuine reasoning. There is no "twisting of your words", I am quoting them back at you.

"reads and confidence feel faked" is a terrible and a weak reason to scumread someone. People in thsi game have vouched that the confidence is more or less a personality trait. If his approach was trying to look good, he has mostly not succeeded in that, and you have failed to sufficiently demonstrate why that approach can't come from town other than "I did not agree with him". The idea that someone having a townread from Day 1 they stick to on Day 2 is evidence of not genuinely sorting players is a terrible argument. Do you expect every player to persistently re-evaluate all their reads every single phase? No one plays that way. I have seen plenty of town players who get early townreads and stick to them, often longer than advised. The idea that this is exclusively a scum motivated read is ludicrous.

You are the one who is actively misrepresenting me. I am tearing holes in your reasoning because it is weak and does not look to come from a legitimate thought process.

(I know no one is reading this at this point. I don't really care, though.)

[gorilla]

Luke, I'm confused why you're suddenly all "I want cakez now" "I want Mala" like, I feel like a lot of focus has gone into Dunn/Dwlee, and like especially mala now, we've all established we're leaving mala alone till d3, then if she continues doing nothing, she's main focus, literally aready established. End of day is close, you don't have thoughts on Dunn/Dwlee? or do you think they're both town?

Dunn isn't even really a wagon anymore and I just quoted his (bad) defense of Dunn. He's basically made no comment on dwlee save to mention he could kill them today with no further elaboration as to why. Hasn't really given a meaningful read on dwlee at any point this game.

I could be misreading Dunnstral at this point for all I know, I think Luke's play is very scummy regardless of Dunn's alignment at this point. He doesn't look to be believably sorting anyone.

Dunn is very weak town rn for me

I prefer to let Luke live cause of the claim

What do you think of Baltar

Not interested in voting, sorry.

[Dwlee99]

Baltar is scum claiming with this push on me so please reconsider :plead:

[gorilla]

Baltar is scum claiming with this push on me so please reconsider :plead:

I understand why you think that but I am not sold on it. I will double-check him to see how I feel about his recent posts but I promise nothing.

[Dwlee99]

VPB I don't get why your reason for thinking I'm scum is still that you think I'm being "obtuse" and not cause Andres is fucking dead

Obviously you killed andres. I initially thought, 'well I don't see a lot scummy in dwlee's day play, could something else be happening here?' Then I express this thought today, and you proceed to exploit that to piledrive me by ignoring all the evidence to the contrary of me possibly being scum. And then when I explain that evidence, you act like your brains are made of concrete when we all know they are not.

So yeah, you killed andres and I never said that's not the case if you're scum. Example No. 500 of you acting like you can't understand basic conversation.

Last game Baltar also tried to appeal to "Dwlee should be smart but they're dumb here so scum" and they were scum there

[VP Baltar]

Sample size scum=1, town=3 VP Baltar only says fair warning as scum

please go read the setup again.

Fair warning, in games like this, I'll probably ask lots of dumb questions about the setup/mechanics.

Certified stupid reason to catch someone but if anyone wants to check more games that'd be epic

Haha, I cannot believe town you would think verbal tics are a legit scum tell.


Anyhow, my thoughts on Meuh were possibly scum for part of this day, but their thought process is so illogical to me, it feels like town spewing at points, particularly when Meuh was the lead wagon earlier.

I've seen people caught with verbal tics before

Ex. MathBlade used to have a penchant for calling people "teapot reads" when scum

This is you justifying a dumb shit smear campaign that had just been disproven immediately.

you're trying to pull every smear in the book and you want me to take you seriously as being town.

I'm trying to extend you the benefit of the doubt here and was about to do some rereading to make sure I'm not being biased, but right when I open MS.net after my morning work, I see you're back at it. It's like you're actively trying to troll me.

[Dwlee99]

You also said I was trolling you last game when you were caught scum

[Dwlee99]

This is you justifying a dumb shit smear campaign that had just been disproven immediately.

Also, no, it's me justifying the general technique even though this application proved unfruitful

[Dwlee99]

And then you said how does that make sense.

And then I explained very clearly how that makes sense.

And now you're playing dumb or something

Just straight trolling me

Anyone else getting cold feet?

Totally reasonable town mindset from VPB rn to say I'm scum cause I don't buy into the "Datisi is a total fucking troll and decided to make this game of the suffering of 3 unfortunate townies and the person that should not have been exploded" world theory

A point you allegedly confirmed with the mod. Keep calling me the crazy one.

Fact: scum can mess with defusers

Fact: fogster had a role that can affect bomb outcomes for town

Fact: mod says scum could affect bomb outcomes

Dwlee: VP is crazy, that would never be possible. Also what if scum used that ability on catboi (WHAT IN THE ACTUAL FUGGGGGGGGGG)

I can hard clear dwlee. just vote VP thanks

Nobody believes you are hard clearing anyone. Also, if you're an investigator, then why not investigate me last night, the person you were scum reading all fucking game?

Kinda weird for you to not believe she has a clear though when that would fit your worldview that you+dwlee are town

Why hasn't she investigated me? That's why I don't believe it. Dwlee is also trolling me, so clearly I was wrong to good faith my read there.

i don't think that makes you scum

I hope you understand how infuriating this game is from town!VP perspective when like four players are just actively trolling me.

VP still voting me weird champ

Why? You're being intentionally obtuse. Clearly my good faith read was misplaced. You need to die. Bad move on your part to save your buddy mistyx.

"I was trying to have a good faith read but now I've been trolled"

[gorilla]

Mmmm, can see the similarities

[VP Baltar]

How about specifically 1365 and 1727

On 1365 - I think I already stated I hated Meuh pushing gorilla over Marci and I thought that was pretty dumb logic. At least I think I did? Meuh made that post not too long after I voted there, and I was pretty satisfied with my vote for awhile as Meuh kept pedaling.

As far as post 1727 - I think Meuh is commenting on things that aren't necessarily alignment indicative for the most part. The one point I do agree with is you being slightly bad faith in your discussion with fire, which is the partner I keep seeing from you here this game. You also did it with Dunn and the Cakez point and you're doing it with me and the verbal tic/whatever fucking trip you're on right now.

So why does that keep happening?


I'm not entirely against the idea of Meuh being scum here, but it is pretty hard for me to take you seriously when you've shown a pattern of bad faith arguments this game. My hang up, if I'm being fully transparent, is that I'm slightly concerned you are overcommitted with this game and RL, and are sort of flailing at anyone suspecting you. Unfortunately, I've been in that position before as town, and it is hard to get out of. I don't want to misyeet you if you're town, but I need more from you than baseless attacks.

I have a few other things on my reread agenda, so I'm putting a pin in this point for now.

[VP Baltar]

*which is the pattern

[VP Baltar]

I was wrong on Lavar but I took a chance and swung there, still think it was an entirely reasonable day 1 kill and

I'm not terribly convinced any of the other wagons on day 1 were on the right track

.

Doing some review on Gorilla, and I think his lavar vote/pressure mostly looks like a consistent train of the thought.

The one thing that strikes me a bit weird here gorilla is the bolded part. Gorilla can you tell me a little bit more about why you think this? Obviously we had the lavar mislim, which you were a semi-driver on and I don't really begrudge you for that, but how are you arriving at the idea that no wagons D1 were good?

[VP Baltar]

Val, I'd like to hear more of your thoughts now that Datisi is dead.

Same for you marci, since you both kind of tunneled there to the exclusion of a lot else yesterday.

Oh ok, you’re scum

Baltar immediately taking advantage of the death to shade other people

Doing some rereading of Meuh. This open to the day is still fucking terrible. My hang up with Meuh is are they just too scummy to be scum. There is a lot disconnected from reality in their reads...but like scum wouldn't keep dumping nonsense like that in thread right? If I was Meuhs' partner, I'd be telling them to stfu.

Meuh, can you explain for me how you got from this:

gorilla - They feel solvey so whatever, I'm willing to believe they're town for now

To this:

The reasoning for marci being scum seems rather tenuous to me. Of course maybe I'm just too dumb to understand it. That happens a lot.

Gorilla/Marci S/S?

VOTE: Gorilla
I'm willing to try this out Enchant, don't let me down

All in the span of 12 hours?

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: dwlee

I am ready to end the day and twin with Dunn.

I think tomorrow will be very enlightening

FTR, If I die overnight as a consequence of this and my invictus does not go off, power-lim lukewarm. There's a very decent chance his current read pivot is being done as an excuse to justify killing me.

FTR, I will just out it.

I choose a player, and if we are Invictus targeting the same player, our Invictus target dies. I am functionally a gated vigilante. That is why, when Bell outed as confirmed town I asked him this question.

@Bell

You being presumably a friendly neighbor (or something similar) but hitting up Baltar instead of me makes me sad.

I'm struggling to figure out your reads this game.

If you had a day vig shot, where would it be?

This was both to figure out who Bell would be on, AND to crumb that I was the person i would be the person who vig'ed that person over night.

That is also why I did not want to twin with Marci, because i did not want her to have a say in the vig target. It is also why I wanted to twin with Kovu, once Bell didn't work out - I was going to give them a vig shot.

It is also why I did not immediately agree to Twin with Dunn, because I was not sure that I wanted to Vig Gorilla.

Now I am.

So, now I am down for twinning with Dunn.

I think that gorilla is just scum here, trying to scare me off of my current game plan.

@Gorilla, if there is a world where you are town, probably consider if you want to go out invictusing the town vigilante instead of forcing the scum team to kill me. Because they absolutely have to kill me at some point.

[Lukewarm]

The timing of that vote flop onto the lead wagon is a "get me into the night phase and away from the person calling me out" move.

Ah yes, the classic scum move of calling someone scum, and then promptly killing them so they flip town.

You are not even trying to make your read make sense anymore I see.

[fireisredsir]

I'm struggling to believe that gorilla looks at my play around marci all game, and is ever worried that I am actively trying to pocket her.

VOTE: gorilla


I think it more likely that it is scum not wanting me to write marci off as town and also not wanting me written off as town (added to meuhs point about his reaction to bell)

Not to beetle juice gorilla calling me and dunn parters or anything, but I actually think that I would prefer a Dunn elim to a dwlee elim.

Gorilla I did notice that you were pushing dunn. However, I am not convinced on either of your alignments enough to use that to clear either of you. Obviously, if either of you do flip scum then I will re-evaluate the other, but definitely not taking either of you off for the other one.

Also, you are not my biggest scum read rn. Cakez is. You were just simultaneously on the bottom half of my reads and an existing wagon that could reasonably go through with out me needing to commit major energy into making it happen. At a time where I actively didn't want a Meuh elim, and she was the other leading wagon

Gorilla, cakez is actually, in this moment, scaring me about the dunn elim then you ever would have :/

Laying in bed thinking about this game, and I've convinced myself of a gorilla town read

The more I think about these posts, the more I hate them.

They seems to be approaching the topic as "come up with something that scum could never post, or having thoughts that someone could be town is scummy and fake" -- when that is literally never how this game or reads work.

Scum can post literally anything. This is a game more about looking at a post, and asking whether is seems more likely something comes from town or scum, and imo, those reasons seemed more likely to come from town. Based on the difference in how scum or town approach building town reads.

But because there is a possibility that scum could make them (and I agree that that is a possibility) Gorilla is completely dismissing it, and not actually engaging in whether that logic would be more likely to come from town or scum.

VOTE: dwlee

I am ready to end the day and twin with Dunn.

I think tomorrow will be very enlightening

luke, can you talk about your progression on gorilla? you voted them, but unless ive missed something, most of your responses and posts about them seem to be about yourself and defensive, not really saying a whole lot about why gorilla is scum. the main reason i see is that you don't believe their claim that you're pocketing marci is believable

you then are somewhat reconciliatory towards gorilla, saying you would prefer a dunn lim to a dwlee lim (right after voting dwlee, and then immediately after that, going extremely hard on cakez for voting dunn)

then you said you got to a townread on gorilla without reasoning

and then now, gorilla is criticizing your townread on dunn, and you push back hard again, with language that makes it sound like you're scumreading gorilla

and then you vote dwlee and say you want to end the day

why did you townread them? why did you say to them that you would prefer a dunn elim to a dwlee elim, while voting dwlee and attacking cakez? what is your read on them now?

[fireisredsir]

ok well i guess being willing to vig them is answering the question of what your read is now. still curious about the other parts though

[VP Baltar]

are you shot limited Luke? A simple yes or no is fine.

[gorilla]

That much was obvious. Fully okay with sending you to graveyard over this.