Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[Bell]

if you don’t point out specifically what Dunnstrall is doing here that reminds you of their scum meta then nobody has any idea what you’re talking about.

[fireisredsir]

How many times do I have to say that Dunn is playing like his scum meta
I feel like I've said it so many times and yet people keep going "gawsh I have no idea why Cakez is scumreading Dunn"

at least once more, bc im p sure you were already disproven on the omgus point that you had originally and eventually acknowledged that? did you forget about all of that?

[Dunnstral]

Feels more like his scum meta again

Prove it

Show us how that's my scum meta

I easily could and you know that

You cannot. Talk is cheap, less blustering about how you 'could' do something.

Here is where we left off SirCakez. The ball is in your court.

[Dunnstral]

Spoiler:

In Slaughter Hour Dunn was scum who I spent a good amount of time pushing before he got killed

VOTE: dunnstral
I think this is now my strongest scumread
He is playing to his scum meta to a T - drive-by posting, lack of investment, few memorable posts or pushes
I can't really think of a scum team in this playerlist that doesn't have Dunn in it while I could see Peta or Unwnd not being in one

Unwnd if you are town here I could really use your thoughts on Dunn

Null

Thought town for a minute but changed my mind. Don't want to think about right now. Confident in solving later.

like this is one of those things that gives me pause w/unwnd because it seems like a weirdly artificial avoidance of Dunn when he just dropped big reads on most of the other players

like I make definite statements but I am open to changing my mind
i'm not some deathtunneler
no one has presented any reason for Dunn to be town so why would I change my mind on that?

as seen here

VOTE: SirCakez

Basically don't think Skitter scum defends Cakez the way she has if Cakez is scum

i would not make that assumption


granted on a gut level she's still town but i have nothing deeper until we get some form of actual flips and voting

Yeah alright I'll discard it

Are you fine with voting Dunn off? Assume no based on your posts

I'm not being voted off, I'm being voted into a duel. You should probably know that I'm, like, 70% likely to win anything that isn't complete rng here, even at a disadvantage, if we're being completely honest. Just saying. Oh also Cakez is scum.

then he IMMEDIATELY responds with OMGUS and starts trying to discredit me
EXACTLY what he's doing here guys

I also feel very comfortable with my townread on Lukewarm. I'm treating Kovu as town for reasons previously discussed. I still think Marci is more likely town than not.

I don't pretend to be able to read enchant particularly well, but their votes and other content we have has all made at least sense to me, neither am I detecting any difference between enchant here and town!enchant in the games I have seen. I have some sympathy for the argument that enchant will be a difficult sort and we might need to consider dealing with it sooner or later, but I think they deserve more of a chance for something else to happen to make that alignment more clear, and I'm not interested in a vote there today.

I want people to actually start reading my posts, so I will give justification elsewhere, but I wouldn't vote Dunn today either. I could probably be convinced to join a wagon on anyone else not mentioned, but my strong preference is for SirCakez, as indicated by my vote.

like all my scumspects suddenly developed scumreads on me after I laid out my scumpool yesterday and I don't think it's a coincidence

I would very much like to kill Cakez today if anyone else is interested.

Like, here he is pushing the idea that scum would scum read him for scum reading scum. Ignores the fact that he town binned Dunn Day 1, but Dunn was pushed him.

[Dunn shading Cakez, while cakez is still calling dunn town]

My point above being that the above post feels selective in that you don't include the information that doesn't support your viewpoint, or seem to care what I am doing because I'm not a popular wagon right now, which feels inconsistent

I ignored it because I've gotten tons of towntells from you earlier on so I didn't see the relevance

[]

It also ignores the people who are scum reading him that are not in his scum pool. (Me, I am talking about me. He has done nothing but call me town, but is then calling other people suspicious for doing something that I am also doing).

Yeah and did Dunn spend any time day 1 pushing me? no he didn't. has he spent most of today sitting on me? yeah he has. what changed in the meantime? not rocket science

I didn't say people scumreading me are scum so your last bit doesn't make any sense
I'm saying that I think scum want to get rid of me at this point, assuming my scumreads rn are correct

Yeah and did Dunn spend any time day 1 pushing me? no he didn't. has he spent most of today sitting on me? yeah he has. what changed in the meantime? not rocket science

This is wrong.
He started scum reading you at the end of day 1. You were town reading him at the time. You scum reading him clearly had nothing to do with him scum reading you, since they happened in the other order. If anything, it looks like you OMGUS'ed him.

He is not sitting on you today, he has literally never voted you. He is voting gorilla.

I didn't say people scumreading me are scum so your last bit doesn't make any sense
I'm saying that I think scum want to get rid of me at this point, assuming my scumreads rn are correct

My point was that it felt like you were selectively applying things. Like, I saw your comment, but then no hint at you second guessing your read on me, and I immediately remembered this from Dunn day 1

My point above being that the above post feels selective in that you don't include the information that doesn't support your viewpoint, or seem to care what I am doing because I'm not a popular wagon right now, which feels inconsistent

It does feel like you are doing this imo.

Okay I re-ISOed Dunn and they have not been on me as much as I thought
I will still stand by their recent reaction to me being bad

Here is where you try to bring up meta again after that. It ends up being factually wrong in the way you are comparing the two games such that what you are comparing to hadn't actually happened in this game at all. It immediately gets called out by Lukewarm in the following post 1610. You go on to say I wasn't on you "as much as you thought" even though this is a binary yes/no you got wrong, and dropped the meta point in favor of "their recent reaction".

Now you're back to meta again. And there's no way you can have this case as scum. Except, what is your meta case right now?

[Dunnstral]

And that's why I said if he wants something to respond to say how this is not exactly like what I expect him to do as scum here

As per your case, it's been established that what you expect me to do as scum is not something that I did this game.

[Meuh]

Btw the exam went well, though I'm still passing the class either way!
It was my last exam too, yay

so meuh.

sometimes her posts feel genuine and i want to townread her, but i think there's just a few things that i really have trouble getting over and i keep coming back to them. these are the biggest things for me:

1) the start of d2 push on gorilla. its already been pointed out how strange it was, saying that gorilla looks paired with marci and then voting gorilla. but with marci flipping scum i think it might just straight up be tmi. newer scum have that issue a lot i think, where they look for fake associatives with their scum partners in order to tie them together but do it before the partner even flips. the reasoning in 1365 for why she's going after gorilla instead of marci is p weak and her whole response to the pushback on it kind of feels like she realizes she messed up and is going into damage control mode.

2) her progression on marci. 162 and 207 feel blatantly partner-y to me. kind of awkwardly talking around a read, and saying "eh ill have a better read later". for people who to my understanding are friends and have played together a lot, it doesn't feel like a natural interaction at all. she starts off with more of a scumlean, but spends the whole day voting other wagons, quickly finds a weak reason to TR marci in 310, gradually townreads more and more, and then in 822 says the marci lim is bad and votes the counterwagon.

then early d2 she quickly shades baltar for questioning Marci in 1162, says marci is +town for LLD's death in 1176 and 1190, and then in her readlist in 1233 has a much more noncommittal, questioning read of marci. i think this has significant scum motivation bc if someone isn't looking closely, they'll think she just kinda nullreads Marci and is willing to consider her scum, but her action that she is taking in the thread is all counter to that. she is continually pointing out reasons Marci could be town, and not reasons why she could be scum, as if she is arguing against what she already knows to be true.

she then turns hard onto marci in posts like 1289. here she is acting like she is suddenly now convinced marci is scum and and is pulling out every reason she can find. but the thing that makes this feel like it's just planted for cred is that there's zero followup. she pivots this into the gorilla/marci s/s and stays on gorilla. then she hops around other wagons, never voting marci, until finally at the end when it's hard to avoid. the thing that makes this scum is that it isn't accurately recreating a town mindset. if she truly did suddenly find marci as scum and had all of these good reasons, to the point where she's preflipping her onto gorilla, why doesn't she ever contribute to the pressure there? why is she continually pushing other wagons? why does the read on marci seem to come and go in her mind based on whatever is convenient to push at the time? it's just not town

3) still think her play around lavar was just a straight up pocket attempt. i don't really see any way that interaction was pure. i don't think this will be very convincing to anyone else but it seriously stands out to me and it is something that i can't really get over personally

so uh yea i think i want to go back here

VOTE: Meuh

I'm not answering this in an orderly way because I wanna let my thoughts flow better, so it's a bit of a cluster

So with (3), are you specifically talking about the point where I voted with him? Tbh I think part of the reason why it skewed me so much is that it humanized him a lot in my eyes, which I really liked. I'm kinda interested in what you think the point of it was, though? Like out of all people, why would I pocket someone I voted for and who was a lim candidate? Feels like I'd be doing better pocketing anyone else
Like look at the way I interacted with Bell for example
I feel like I mentioned several times I was annoyed with him, while still stating often my townread on him. But I never used this read to approach him in a way that was pocketing. (I don't think I interacted much with him at all)
I don't really see how the way I interacted with others (pissing off plenty) is an angle you think would be one scum!me takes. Gorilla, VPB and I'd even say you, Marci and Kovu seemed kind of annoyed with me. If you look at my last scum game, it's very passive, by the books gameplay. Votes not moving often, basic stances on the game, not delving into pre-flip associations, townreading most people. Because I come up with a lot less wild ideas and I do less 180s when I'm not paranoid about who scum are and not genuinely analyzing the game. Those things come from me when I have passion in my reads, when I get invested into them.

I feel like I've talked about the points in (1) in depth. I felt like my reads were inaccurate and the stars seemed to align on Marci and Gorilla, so I got very passionate about it all. I do think my response to the pushback doesn't look great but that's largely because I took it personally. A lot of the pushback on it felt like it was more about me sucking than about the actual read and it felt pretty terrible. May or may not have cried from that + being high emotion from irl stuff, but meh. First half of day 2 I did not enjoy in the slightest.
(2) Reading Marci has always been and is still a bit weird for me. It's not particularly enjoyable, and it feels like walking on eggshells sometimes because she's a friend of mine and I don't want to make the game worse by having her all wrong. (Which I think I've done before) I still love having her in the game thoug <3. Broadly speaking sure I guess people would be more eager to read people they know well but that's not something that can be transposed in all of these sorts of situations. My friendship with Marci isn't a copy+paste of every other friendship on the site.
I'm trying to read her more and treat her less in a different way because I think I'm good enough at reading her at this point, but yeah. Marci this game early on I didn't like the push because of who was on which wagon, not finding the points against Marci particularly compelling and wanting to sort her later, with flips.
I think I have this bad habit of simply dropping my thoughts on individual posts rather than the broader game someone is playing. This makes my reads harder to follow and it applies to how I was feeling about Marci. Occasionally one of her posts particularly stuck out to me, and I commented on it. Sometimes they were town indicative things, sometimes they were scum indicative. Marci's early day 2 felt horribly unnatural and my perspective on her had shifted significantly at this point. Early day 2 was also a spring cleaning of my perspective on the game so I can understand why it looks unnatural to an extent.

Idk defending myself is weird to do. I'm just kinda wondering, some things I've done have undoubtedly been odd, I play in odd ways. But do you, and others who are questioning my alignment, really think I make more sense as scum than as a townie? Do those odd things get explained away with a red role card? Am I motivated by an agenda? Do these things outweigh the moments where you've read one of my posts and thought "yeah, she's a townie"; which I assume has happened to several of you at this point? (It's happened to me with several people in this game) I think I've spewed my towniness in my posts at this point.

Imo scum have 2 ways to approach this day:
1. Bus a partner for long-term benefit
2. Defend their partners and get a mislim
With the way I've been voting and the fact I'm largely interested in following conf/likely town to make the game progress, is an agenda being fulfilled?

and with the way I voted for Marci and was the one who ignited that string of votes, why would I do it that way when partnered with her?? Why would I vote for her without that much conviction? If it was coordinated why is it so mellow? The answer is that I wasn't that sure about her alignment, because if I was scum I'd either defend her to her last breath, or I'd bus her. No wishy-washy stuff. Uncertainty is something I've had about my reads at every step of this game.

Ultimately mislimming me isn't terrible because it still narrows the POE, but I'm still a townie and limming townies tends to not be good.

[fireisredsir]

the numbers are not remaining consistent but i can't quote strip easily on phone so this is what you get

1) on lavar, i think that reaching a hand out to someone who hasn't found their footing and is getting some suspicion is exactly the kind of thing that scum like to do to pocket someone. you make them feel comfortable and listened to when they're vulnerable, and suddenly theyre less interested in scumreading you. that's like pretty standard

2) on people getting annoyed by you, im actually not at all sure where you got that from. i had lots of other things to talk about so I didn't bring it up but i find 310 p weird, bc that is not the impression i have of the game to that point at all. I just read the first 300 posts again, still no idea what you're talking about. lavar has some suspicion and votes you. gamma votes you but never says why and moves off immediately. datisi expressed some suspicion in 135. gamma later explains and says that he thought you were a good early vote. and then you say that you've gotten "a bunch of shade and mild scumreads" and that you're surprised you've only gotten 2 votes and even that scum are using you as a backup wagon?? i don't know where thats coming from. the only one who i think could vote you but wasn't is datisi. i think scum usually overestimate the significance of suspicion on them and i think you very much did in this case. this whole section of your latest post just feels like a weird tangent to me where im not sure where you're coming from or where you're going. i haven't ever been annoyed with you this game and its v weird to me that you are suggesting that you would be acting in a way to be less annoying to people (??) as scum here. i think you've been p pleasant and generally nice and i don't know what you think you would have done differently

3) on gorilla+marci case... okay, i guess. i don't think that really affects my read of the situation but i don't really think there's much that you can say that would. the one point is that you're saying you were into this solve bc you felt passion for your Marci read, but where did that passion go? why did it never result in you pushing for marci's elimination until end of day?

4) on reading marci... honestly this doesn't really explain anything. you're just giving your perspective on reading marci in general which sounds nice and is a lot of words but isn't really relevant to your alignment in this game? one of my main points was about how you seemed like you were hard scumreading her at start of d2 but then you never really pressured there, continually voted other wagons, etc, all the things i talked about. none of that is really addressed by this

5) on whether your actions make more sense as scum than as town... yes? i just explained why I think that. i don't really like how this seems to be minimizing my reasoning into that you've done odd things. i don't really care if you've done odd things. i think you've done things that have scum motivation. and yes, those do outweigh times where I've felt like i can believe you're having a town thought process, because scum can fake that. action is what matters

6) on your approach to this day, it's hard for me to say exactly what you're doing bc I don't know who your partners are if you're scum. gorilla is free to talk about why he finds your posting today scummy, for me it isn't that significant which is why i didn't talk about it and mostly focused on prior days. i could see your play from today as coming from either town or scum.

7) on your vote on marci, this is easy for you to say, and easy to see in hindsight that maybe this is what you should have done, but its harder to do in the moment. i think that if you're scum here then you made a mistake in the way you handled marci. you probably expected she could survive another day, so didn't pressure there, but when you saw a wagon building you panicked and felt like you had to join it based on your most recent read of her. looking back now, it looks bad and partnered, but thats how scum get caught. they make mistakes. you're arguing here that i shouldn't suspect you bc if you were scum you would have played better and that doesn't really do much for me

[Meuh]

The exaggerated perspective of annoyance probably comes from how much I just wasn't enjoying day 2 for a while, I thought I was frustrating everyone

I also generally lost passion for the solve because the reception for it was terrible
Which I guess maybe isn't the best way to go about things, but also if everyone tells me a read is bad, I'm gonna have to reconsider.

I don't really have much else to say, tbh. If I do I think it'll just be going around in circles.

I do wonder if Kovu or Gorilla have anything to say though. and what Gorilla's issues with my play today are.

[fireisredsir]

but... the reception was mostly about you voting gorilla based off a partner read. i don't get how that would make you less sure of your marci read and less interested in pressuring that instead.

but okay, i agree, going back and forth in walls is prob not super useful and i would like to hear other people's thoughts as well

[Dunnstral]

I mean, that's unfortunate, but sure -- I'll take that over nothing

-defended Lavar all day d1 when he was the default mislim
-correctly read and pushed marci d2
-the stuff I said about how I wouldn't have picked Bell if I were scum in the hood
-continued to townread Luke despite being pushed by him and Kovu trying to convince me he was scum in the hood
-my reasoning for Dunn!scum is not something I would have pulled out as scum

You were voting Dwlee at the end of day 1, and you went off on the lavar voters, talking abotu how right you were and how there was scum on that wagon.

You were voting a different town wagon, and you are really embellishing how you protected lavar and how this makes you town.

Also, Luke was claiming vigilante, so there is obvious benefits to not go aggro on him as scum

[Dunnstral]

Player	Votes
LavarManos (11)	gorilla (790), Lukewarm (796), fireisredsir (800), Val89 (803), Meuh (822), Dwlee99 (953), Datisi (962), Bell (1014), Dunnstral (1090), VP Baltar (1123), Enchant (1134)
Dwlee99 (5)	Kovu (1009), Fey (1011), Lady Lambdadelta (1013), Gammagooey (1022), SirCakez (1034)
Datisi (2)	LavarManos (950), marcistar (1116)
Not Voting (2)	Malakittens (130), Rhyme and Reason (964)

[Dunnstral]

Spoiler:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: lavar

Late day surprise wagon! My favorite.

oh HECK yeah let's go

VOTE: Lavar

Why is LLD on this list and not RR?

Why would we be on the list? Before this post basically nobody had called us town.

This bit is something I would see myself post as scum tbh

I can go find examples of me saying similar stuff as town if you'd like (but only if it would help, it's time-consuming). Or we can just ask the many other people in the game who are familiar with me if it's AI.

I very much want to see a counterwagon to marci for reasons I already laid out, so even though I just got town vibes on Lavar I think it's proper to VOTE: Lavar

I haven't heard from Mena yet but I would expect him to agree with me.

-Reason

I don't want Marci. I realise my opinion on the matter might not count for much when I've been floated as an alternative, but I'll give it, since my lack of involvement in the wagon so far is probably clue enough as gamma pointed out previously.

I got a slight town ping from 40, although I accept that sort of thing could come from scum surprised a made-up read was endorsed by a townie, I also think it would be some co-incidence to hit the same ping on the 8 players posted pre-marci entrance on page 1. My initial reaction to Lukewarms' push there was that is was opportunistic garbage, and seeing datisi wholeheartedly jump on and endorse it with 'lolscum' whilst trying to give justification (albeit shit ones) for everyone else sealed the deal for me that the case was crap. Having seen luke temper and then reverse it leads me to believe the case there was initially deliberately exaggerated and oversold, and in truth is probably +town for luke as well as marci.

I've been voting datisi since "RVS" too, although it was never actually an RVS vote. I've deliberately chosen to be cagey about my reads, which may have led to the impression there is a lack of scum hunting going on, too. Those are the reasons I see given for the wagon now, and I can't see them as scummy because I know there is at least one genuine thought process that results in those same outward signs.

I've not given too much though to LavarManos since I noted datisi's strange justification for that read, which when examined I strongly disagreed with, and thought had to be basically invented. I might have been hasty there, if for no other reason that nothing prevents scum from inventing reasons for giving a 'slightly scummy maybe?' read on a partner.

If this is the two we are going with;

VOTE: LavarManos

All of these people are null to scum - over half of the wagon and all of the later votes. Definitely could be scum driven.

Not a fan of this defense in hindsight either

[Meuh]

Ouch yeah that post isn't great.
860 combined with 441 feels more like setting up mislims over flips he's already aware of being green or red.
I'm curious, has Cakez made any of these sorts of statements that have turned out to not be applicable? If his only instances of linking people together like this have been to link me to Marci if she flipped scum (which she did) and shade 2 now conf town and 2 likely town if Lavar flipped green (which he did), it's concerning.

[Meuh]

VOTE: SirCakez
Bad vibes smh

Also @Fire I didn't really grasp that sort of nuance when it was happening. It was more of an emotional reaction than a logical one

[Meuh]

Maybe Dunn's town and this is like Enchant/Cakez/hidden wolf
I wonder if Fey bussing Cakez is like an actual possibility or if that wouldn't make sense regarding her push, I should check it out again

[Meuh]

I think this has been commented on before but Fey's push on Cakez is weird

Like she doesn't seem to particularly care about him or find him scummy. She even seems to townlean him in 1178.
Then she mentions him being set in stone on Marci as something scummy?

His iso seems pretty set in stone on Marci too for like the entire game, bussing probable.

Like this post makes sense if Fey

already

scumreads Cakez, as a way to communicate she doesn't think his read on Marci stops him from being scum.
But this is the first scummy thing she points out about him??
It's a bit perplexing
Then it's Marci's scumread list that convinces her even more.
Both of these reasons feel complementary if that makes any sense? Like they're points that enhance an already existing read but the roots of the read on Cakez is never really communicated.
B

[Meuh]

Somehow accidentally sent that post early

(...)But also she seems genuine a good bit of the time today so ???
I don't really think she should be limmed today
Probably should be Enchant or Cakez

[Val89]

VOTE: SirCakez

I count that as 4 votes on Cakez.

The pool of realistic non-"deep wolf" suspects is small enough to me that I think there has to be some busing going on somewhere when essentially all of them have had some sort of wagon of various sizes on them today.

[Kovu]

I will not be voting cakez out here. I believe the pool of scum is in Val/Meuh/Dunn/Enchant/Gamma.
Like all yall voting cakez talk as if you know he's flipping town, like, he's gonna flip town, then you're just gonna go "he was bad." "not my fault"

[Meuh]

I will not be voting cakez out here. I believe the pool of scum is in Val/Meuh/Dunn/Enchant/Gamma.
Like all yall voting cakez talk as if you know he's flipping town, like, he's gonna flip town, then you're just gonna go "he was bad." "not my fault"

???
How do you get that impression from these votes more so than from other votes

[gorilla]

I am tired.

[SirCakez]

This game is so obnoxious I really don't want to keep playing but I feel I owe y'all

[SirCakez]

I'm sick of being forced to defend myself over and over when I've been having a solid game and it feels like as soon as I try to let off the gas on defense I get swarmed again like on this page

[Meuh]

I'm fine with consolidating on anyone within the POE that isn't me

[Rhyme and Reason]

Prodge. Hopefully we'll have a readlist or something soon.

-Reason