Open 856: Deputy cultists (Game over)

[RH9]

VOTE: Jacket
We meet again.

[RH9]

@mod

The Setup Info post says that if no prime cultists die, Night is skipped but the Rules post says that Cult Leader may recruit if no-elimination happens.

[RH9]

Actually let's do it funny way.

Play game like normal, and on 3 days before deadline force Vengefuls to claim. Therefore we will know who could tried push them and vice versa.

Sounds like a great idea to me.

[RH9]

By the way,
UNVOTE: Jacket
His posts seem to come from a Town mindset.

[RH9]

Why wouldnt the cultists vote the leader in RVS? Isnt the prime cultists' job in this setup to build false associatives?

Good point.
It would be really helpful for Cult considering that a vote on the CL is an instant Town win.

[RH9]

because if they refuse to kill who we said, we killed cult anyways, and vengefuls should be killed for double-elims anyways?

Sounds like a good plan to me.

[RH9]

Promoting this plan is anti-town.

Got that.
How about forcing all to claim if they get put to E-1 on D1. If they don't agree to consensus shot, look for associations and get rid of any potential cult-partners?

[RH9]

Promoting this plan is anti-town.

Got that.
How about forcing all to claim if they get put to E-1 on D1. If they don't agree to consensus shot, look for associations and get rid of any potential cult-partners?

I give two statements, i actually don't understand why i need to keep explaining but ok.

First: Vengefuls should claim D1. No discuss. I actually think forcing Governor as well is not bad, but it's debating.
Second: Assuming we have only two Vengeful claims (exact amount we supposed to have), they are not only confirmed town if/before convert happens, but also they are Not Cult Leader for the end of the game. Because killing Cult Leader is instant win, there's literally

zero

reason to kill them at any point afterwards.

Got that.
Thanks, Enchant.
By the way, what happens if there ends up being more than 2 Vengeful claims?

[RH9]

By the way,
UNVOTE: Jacket
His posts seem to come from a Town mindset.

What have I actually done?

Your tone and content in your first four posts made me think that you were Town.
I think that your questioning in this post feels also quite like you are Town because scum would be more happier about getting TRed.

[RH9]

By the way, BBT, Cat.Jpeg prefers she/they.

[RH9]

This is, what, saying that you've never seen Scum attempt to actively lurk by putting out posts that seem like content but don't actually go anywhere? That is the entirety of my Scumread on RH9, how come you didn't attack me over it?

Good catch.
Do you think that BBT should be Venged?

[RH9]

... really i am dissapointed.

You all really considering that hiding PR, sole useful purpose is ability to shot IF they mislimmed.

Literally bonkers. If you want miselim Vengefuls so much, why not do it at Day 1 as well then they claim, hm?

Well.
Could you remind me when to watch out for Vengeful claims?

[RH9]

Vengefuls should claim today to reduce the lim pool, although we dont need the claim yet. The claims become useless after a prime dies.

Got that.
By the way, I might be repeating things but do you think that Vengefuls should target their own SRs or a consensus SR?

[RH9]

Theres nothing stopping their own judgement. Cult will be influential if it is decided by majority but rhen again commonly scumread players will likely die amyway.
Theres value in both but I think the best course of action currently is just to not lim vengefuls as sinple as it is.

OK.
Sounds like a good plan.

[RH9]

This is, what, saying that you've never seen Scum attempt to actively lurk by putting out posts that seem like content but don't actually go anywhere? That is the entirety of my Scumread on RH9, how come you didn't attack me over it?

Good catch.
Do you think that BBT should be Venged?

Why did you say Venged specifically?

Also, what are your reads looking like right now?

Oh.
That was a slip. I accidentally thought that all Vengefuls would want to shoot a consensus read.
As for my reads, I have Jacket as Town for tone, you as Town for your questioning, Enchant and Beat as Town for their strategic help and null for most of the others.
My read on BBT is still not improved.

[RH9]

Actually, I like 208. The questioning makes me want to promote my read on BBT to a townlean.

[RH9]

It feels like a poorly thought out point that's mostly filler.

It feels to me like the kind of post scum would make to try and look like they are solving/ throwing shade.

I would say that I agree somewhat in that it seems to me that furtive is trying to appear like he's solving.

[RH9]

It feels like a poorly thought out point that's mostly filler.

It feels to me like the kind of post scum would make to try and look like they are solving/ throwing shade.

I would say that I agree somewhat in that it seems to me that furtive is trying to appear like he's solving.

You agree with Beat, interesting. And if they started.....a cult, let's say. Would you be in?

That's a good question.
I'm not sure, really.

[RH9]

Though, I don't read Beat as Cult.

[RH9]

I don't think Korina, Bella, or Enchant are CL.

I agree on Korina.
If they were CL, they wouldn't probably be doing everything that they have been doing.
I agree on Enchant too.
They've been coming up with so much plans that it feels like a CL wouldn't be doing.

[RH9]

I don't think Korina, Bella, or Enchant are CL.

I agree on Korina.
If they were CL, they wouldn't probably be doing everything that they have been doing.
I agree on Enchant too.
They've been coming up with so much plans that it feels like something that a CL wouldn't be doing.

EBWOP

[RH9]

I don't think Korina, Bella, or Enchant are CL.

I agree on Korina.
If they were CL, they wouldn't probably be doing everything that they have been doing.
I agree on Enchant too.
They've been coming up with so much plans that it feels like a CL wouldn't be doing.

Enchant claimed Governor, You don't get points for townreading PR claims.

Got it.

[RH9]

If we're sticking to a version of Enchant's plan, I would like to claim.
I am a Vengeful Townie.

[RH9]

There is also the route where we let cult recruit because then if we kill the recruit

No, unless you want play mindgames with cult.

I agree.
Killing the recruit just lets the Cult use the Vengeful to take out Town and help them win.

[RH9]

I almost feel like CL is in the vengeful claims

I disagree.
I see no reason why CL would want to do that.
It's too risky.

[RH9]

By the way, Venging a Cultist doesn't activate the recruiting ability, right?

[RH9]

Thanks, Enchant.

[RH9]

Bellaphant, you think that Beat is Cult?

[RH9]

Oh.
Got that.
Then, what's read about her interactions with me?

[RH9]

Oh.
Got that.
Then, what's weird about her interactions with me?

EBWOP

[RH9]

But that's impossible if Bella is Cult Leader, right?

Yeah.
I never thought that Bella was CL, but it does make more sense to me that town!Bella's worried that I'm aligned with Beat rather than us being T/S.

[RH9]

To be honest, I dislike the wagon on Bella.
I can find nothing wrong with her posts and no reason why anybody should vote for her.

[RH9]

By the way, if you want my current reads.

Town

Enchant
Jacket
Bella
Korina / BBT / Beat
Cat.Jpeg / Titus
furtiveglance
Nathann

Cult

By the way, for my read on Nathann changed, it's because of his history of fakeclaiming and acting like Town as 3P.
I don't think that Jacket ever fakeclaims here because he was first. For Enchant, it's because of their plans.
For why I moved Bella up and Beat, it's because of 266 and I dislike the wagon on Bella.

[RH9]

However, since Nathann claimed Vengeful, I'm not going to vote for him until later.
VOTE: furtiveglance

[RH9]

To be honest, I'm getting the feeling that we're leading to a no-lim.
Unless we can already to a consensus SR, we're going nowhere.

[RH9]

To be honest, I'm getting the feeling that we're leaning towards a no-lim.
Unless we can get to a consensus SR, we're going nowhere.

EBWOP

[RH9]

I'll go between the vengefuls today I think.

Nathan or Jacket. Not fussed which

To clarify, do you want to vote between them or let them decide?

[RH9]

Just curious considering that if you want to vote a Vengeful claim, you'd probably better off including me in the elimination pool.

[RH9]

By the way a clarification on 279 before anybody gets misdirected.
Nathann fakeclaimed VT in Open 838 as SK but he actually acted more Town than a whole portion of the playerlist.

[RH9]

SK is different and meta is meta.

SK still want to find scum remember

Oh yeah.
That's true.

[RH9]

Also I'd like everyone to give input on who they think is likely Cult outside of the Vengeful claims. BBT, includes you.

I'm not entirely sure.
Maybe one of Cat.Jpeg and furtive?
Reading the latest posts by Titus just makes me feel like she's genuinely didn't mean to post less and she's trying to improve.

[RH9]

Cult don’t get recruits from non-prime deaths

Good point.

[RH9]

By the way, Nathann, even though you're talking to Jacket, would you mind quoting the posts on your rationale on Beat?

[RH9]

Excuse me for this but can anybody explain why Bella is scummy?

[RH9]

Spoiler: Notable interactions of Bella, Cat, and Nathann

I want to ask why to both of the above posts. Although tbf I am town reading cat for bad reasons.

Got that.
Thanks, Enchant.
By the way, what happens if there ends up being more than 2 Vengeful claims?

If 3 people claim the only way we can tell who is the cultist is to eliminate one of them them, but 2 out of 3 of them will be telling the truth and we will likely kill a Vengeful townie. Even if we hit the prime cultist it doesn't help us. We could opt to not eliminate them but what if the cultist claiming is the leader?
I think we would have to kill all of them. Luckily because of the Vengeful townie power it would only take one phase. If we hit one of the vengeful townies they could kill one of the other people who claimed and we would know who the liar was although we might have one Vengeful townie kill the other which would suck. If we hit the cultist then yay if leader, eh if prime cultist.
Question now is: What if 4 people claim?

@nathaan, they made me laugh with their opening to enchant. I tend to find town are more relaxed and making me laugh has tended town before - cat was in a game recently where one of my reasons for scum reading someone was they made me laugh when we were both town but not that game.

The short answer is yes it was a serious read, which makes more sense if you imagine it was a 9 player game (which I did).

Okay. Walk me through your thoughts on why three people voting Jacket on page 1 makes him likely not Cult Leader. (I know the answer might seem obvious, but bear with me.)

I think Korina is a non-Leader Cultist. Their entrance into this game feels designed to get people angry and to vote them over it. It feels inflammatory for the sake of it. And since I feel like Korina is a better Scum player than that and wouldn't make such a stupid error, AND that they would realize it's in Cult's favour to kill non-Leader Cultists since then they can convert more.

And I'm vaguely reading Bellaphant as not aligned with Korina, so there's that.

RH9 is still my best bet for Cult Leader. His posts feel like he's genuinely trying to uphold a thread presence, but he's not actually saying anything helpful or Townie.

Does anyone (other than Korina) have thoughts on whether furtiveglance's 64 is Townie or Scummy? It feels like a post I

should

have an opinion on, but I can't quite make it out.

114 is such a bad take on the situation.

Also, cat.jpeg is probably town. The vote on her is bad - I cousktn understand the set up stuff when enchant and korina were talking, but what cat says actually makes sense? Like, she's the least scummy of the three 'set up' talkers.

I think they were cross about a policy elim/meme, not the votes themselves? Idek, there's clearly context here that they think people know but I don't.

Fair. Can you expand on it a bit? Honestly I've not noticed then produce anything and have lumped them with Titus/bbt

It's not scummy on its own, but the third time in four posts feels very hedgey.

I think they were cross about a policy elim/meme, not the votes themselves? Idek, there's clearly context here that they think people know but I don't.

Fair. Can you expand on it a bit? Honestly I've not noticed then produce anything and have lumped them with Titus/bbt

It's not scummy on its own, but the third time in four posts feels very hedgey.

Doesn't change my point. They got meme voted because it's a Cult game. Korina is surely used to getting meme voted in Cult games. I just don't see a world where their first reaction to seeing that is going all rage mode and screaming at everyone who voted them for it.

Make note, I don't think Korina reacts like that as Town, and I also think Scum!Korina is good enough to know that the game is most likely to find such a reaction Scummy. So it doesn't make sense they're the Cult Leader. The only scenario where it makes sense is if Korina is a Cultist (who knows it's in benefit of the Cult for Cultists to get killed so that the Leader can recruit more), or

maybe

they're a Vengeful Townie trying to play a hero. My money is currently on the former.

Read Titus's and BBT's ISOs, then read RH9's. All of them have about the same amount of content. The only difference is that Titus and BBT are not pretending that they're solving anything. While RH9 has posted 8 posts, most of which are tangentially game-related (talking about the setup, etc.) but none of them actually get us anywhere. He doesn't have reads. Other than arguably Townleaning Jacket, who, IMHO, had not done anything worth unvoting at the time. RH9 and Titus/BBT all have zero content, but RH9 is the only of the three who is trying to look like he's contributing.

I mean. furtiveglance's not someone I have a great read on right now. I concluded that he is Townie in one scenario, and null in the other. I don't pretend to have strong reads on people I don't have ones, and I didn't want to leave that line of conversation without giving a conclusion.

I don't think Korina, Bella, or Enchant are CL.

Bbt, it's a day one read. I'm also struggling for other actual town reads - like, it's you, cat and nathaan? Jacket's right about people being passive, I've put questions out that people aren't even responding To.

Tbf I'd love a bit more pressure and engagement but what you've basically described is bella playing mafia, especially on day one. Titus, bbt and cat can probably confirm.

Is there anything specific you want to ask me about/discuss?

I almost feel like CL is in the vengeful claims

I also find your push on nathaan and me weird. Like, you've decided that cult 'play like x' but I think nathaan is townie, then you've shoved me in the same slots as korina and Titus who've posted a lot less content than me. Like, there's a solid 5ish players that have between 30-41 posts, and then only you above that.

I think you might be jumping at shadows? I don't think scum leader bbt has this many casual bad takes.

The three musketeers at work.

Cat.jpeg and Bellaphant work with each other through a majority of the game. Cat.jpeg encourages bad mech plays which isn't anything definitive, except the buddy/buddyness with Bella. Cat has notable instances of discrediting ideas or players as well as Bella ends up not contributing a lot and mainly plays defensive of cat and bella. Their only real 'push' is an OMGUS and most of the rest of their play appears like obfuscation rather than curiosity or 'solviness' They play to keep certain players alive which I think has high CL equity.

Nathann is the mostl iekly wrong here but notably is closer to the other two in townreads earlier on (before they may have decided who will claim vengeful) and drops most mention of the others after that point. It reeks of distancing but I can't find Nathann's role in cults plan (and if this is the team there is a particular direction they are guiding the game towards) except perhaps as a foil/distancing.

I think most of the [abridged] ISO speaks for itself but if any part of it escapes you as to hwy I bring it up just say so. I will be back before deadline but this is why I want to elim bellaphant, and I haven't seen stronger cases on anyone else yet.

I see.
Though, I'm still more for a Cat lim today than one on Bella.

[RH9]

VOTE: Cat.Jpeg
I feel like she's likely to be Cult.
254 still doesn't sit right.
It feels like she wants to get a Vengeful or Prime Cultist limmed.

[RH9]

VOTE: Cat.Jpeg
I feel like she's likely to be Cult.
254 doesn't sit right.
It feels like she wants to get a Vengeful or Prime Cultist limmed.

EBWOP

[RH9]

That Cat vote is going to achieve nothing RH9, it's too late

Would you want me to switch to Bella?
Though, plurality means that she's going to get eliminated anyways unless somebody votes Nathann or Beat for some reason or another.

[RH9]

I'd definitely vote Cat if we thought we could get the votes.

Just worried about time.

That's true.
In the 12 hours left of the Day, most people are probably going to be asleep so I don't think that much vote will end up changing.
And Cat.Jpeg could always just vote Bella.

[RH9]

By the way, Nathann, even though you're talking to Jacket, would you mind quoting the posts on your rationale on Beat?

324 and 341.

Thanks.

I'm kind of skeptical that Cult!Beat makes 412 when it seems likely that one of the people in the solve will get eliminated. If one of the people in there were to flip Town, she would be forced to re-evaluate, and I'm not sure Scum is likely to put themselves in that position voluntarily.

I agree.
I think that that is one of her Towniest posts.
It feels unlikely that scum would try so hard to justify a solve and continue to push it.

[RH9]

I haven't really either to be fair.

[RH9]

Why Titus?
She seems all right to me.
Though, still a null.

[RH9]

Sorry for disappearing, I will vote whoever to avoid no-elim. I dont really want to vote bella though.

There's plurality.
There will be no no-elim at deadline.

[RH9]

VOTE: Cat.Jpeg
I feel like she's likely to be Cult.
254 still doesn't sit right.
It feels like she wants to get a Vengeful or Prime Cultist limmed.

Voting in the vengeful claims means that a vengeful or prime cultist will get elimmed, thats just how that works. Except if a CL is elimmed but that's a good thing.

I see.
By the way, regarding 460, why is killing Primes better than killing a recruit?
They can recruit more if a Prime is killed but not if a recruit is.

[RH9]

Are we in twilight now?

[RH9]

With 7 votes on Cat.Jpeg?

[RH9]

Why Titus again?
Is it to do with her idea of voting Vengefuls to hunt for Prime Cultists?

[RH9]

Just because I expect more than what she is giving so far.

I see.
She does seem more less involved in this game.
Though, she said that she had been busy IRL.

[RH9]

Does anyone have any experience with furtives?

Unless you count that one time we spectated Open 846 together and Newbie which I spectated and furtive, I don't really have any experience with furtive.
And TBH, in the Newbie, furtive was the first mislim of the game and was already eliminated by the time that I started spectating.
He did say that his reads changed a lot in the Day 1 of that Newbie. In the Spectator thread of that Newbie, Roden described him as having "just complained and AtE'd" when pushed as well as that if furtive had "scum hunted and not hard defended Whiskey", he "could've lived".
BBT was in that Newbie so he should have more experience than me with town!furtive.

[RH9]

It could be a mistype though if it was, Beat probably would've corrected it.

[RH9]

I mean maybe Beat meant three but accidentally typed 2

[RH9]

Better cult doesn't know If i'm right in retrospect

Seems like a good plan.
Though, do tell us later if tomorrow is ELO or not.

[RH9]

Oh wait.
I see what Beat is about now.
The Governor decides the vote in two days.

[RH9]

First venge never shoots other venges

Got that.

[RH9]

Rh9, any reads?

Similar to my D1 reads in 279 but move furtive up because he seems to be more actively solving and inline with what I expect of town!him now.
And move BBT up for constant effort.
Otherwise, not much change but move Titus to the same level and Nathann.

[RH9]

Rh9, any reads?

Similar to my D1 reads in 279 but move furtive up because he seems to be more actively solving and inline with what I expect of town!him now.
And move BBT up for constant effort.
Otherwise, not much change but move Titus to the same level as Nathann.

EBWOP

[RH9]

Why not? Looks like their odds are better?

Who is this directed to?

[RH9]

TBH I still want to hear from Titus after her V/LA.

[RH9]

I see.
So Beat wanted to know if the Governor can force a no-lim and they can.
Though, I'm still a bit unsure why forcing a no-lim causes a ELO?

[RH9]

Oh no, I could tell enchant was joking!

Me too!
On a serious note, we really shouldn't be limming in the claims today.

[RH9]

@mod

I will be on V/LA from 1-4 July.
Also, what are the prod timers for V/LA?

[RH9]

If rather not u til the vla is over

I agree.
I want Titus to at least say something before she gets limmed.

[RH9]

Mostly joking. But 99% sure there has to be 'scum' in the Titus/furtive/korina group.

I agree definitely.
I think that at least one of the three is scum.

[RH9]

Do we need to think about cl v deptuy? Because if we don't hit cl today, we can't hit deputy tomorrow, or its auto loss yes?

That's true.
Hitting a deputy tomorrow would let them convert Enchant and win.

[RH9]

Why did vote-in-the-claims gang dissipate? Ppl voting outside the claims are living in dreamland, we have such a low chance of voting CL, especially since we know that one confirmed cultist (prob Prime but could be leader!) is in 3 people, the other 2 of which are town with KP (who could smoke the leader even if we vote wrong). What am I missing?

That the Vengefuls could Venge each other.

[RH9]

And if we miss CL today, thing aren't bright for the future.

[RH9]

And if we miss CL today, things aren't bright for the future.

EBWOP
See 619 from Bella.

[RH9]

Mostly joking. But 99% sure there has to be 'scum' in the Titus/furtive/korina group.

I agree definitely.
I think that at least one of the three is scum.

Going back to this, 626 and 627 makes me think that Korina should be taken out of the pool and scum is in Titus/furtive.

[RH9]

Finding CL is hell. In my first game it was simple townreadbyeveryone who speak rarely.

Can you expand on this a bit?

[RH9]

Finding CL is hell. In my first game it was simple townreadbyeveryone who speak rarely.

Can you expand on this a bit?

In first cult game i decided to "Hell out of it" and claimed my PR instantly, so no one will suspect i am Cult Leader for the end.


Everyone was pissed (lel), but my goal was pretty achieved. Cult didn't convert me before last night because they got other PR instead, but i was disbelieved for the end (with help of cult). Still improved our chances a bit.

Not me, not other town, not even cult mentioned CL for almost whole game, expect for brief "Yeah i think it's town makes sense". We just failed before Elo, and then jumped on first cultist who baited votes to allow CL winning convert. And then i was converted in a win, not because i am cool, just because i could prevent this convert and they wanted game ended ASAP without chance for me to ruin this. Yeah, cults are meh.


So anyway, if team is somewhat competent, CL is probably in list of townreads. But i don't know like what, we supposed to reverse reads or what. Titus smeells like Prime honestly, main accusation is low content, which is kinda NAI, this is suicide for CL.
Or i am plainly blind and can't play mafia. I guess it can't be helped.

I see.

[RH9]

I better reevaluate my reads then.

[RH9]

Most annoyingly they could know that and make CL act as most scummiest person so we call it prime bait and not elim.

Mafia is hard.

What if they already are?

[RH9]

Exactly. What if.

Thankfully i am conftown and can just say it directly without being fastkilled for IQ of rock

They can, but it's like... I don't know, i considered every person and still have no idea.

I feel like if Titus is Prime, then I should look into furtive again.
He has acted somewhat Town at times but at other times, I feel like I shouldn't be putting him so high up on my reads.
I mean my whole read on him has been iffy since 622.

[RH9]

If I get limmed, I get limmed. I feel like shit atm. Shocked I wasn't prodded. I would expect scum to be wking me.

What does "wking" mean?

[RH9]

TBH I feel like Titus is acting super defeatist.

[RH9]

TBH I feel like Titus is acting super defeatist.

I'm not sure I should vote or not vote her for this.

[RH9]

Her willingness seems too much like a Prime Cultist.

[RH9]

VOTE: titus

Rh9, I don't know, it's giving me different vibes to korina who are times felt they wanted to be elimed. This could equally just be 'cl is hard ' Titus.

I guess that it doesn't hurt.
VOTE: Titus

[RH9]

I hate the fact furtive is still trying to pass the "let's eliminate in the CC's" thing and wouldn't mind seeing them gone either.

Would you want us to lim furtive then?

[RH9]

We can do Titus first. I'm not really sure if that is Scum-indicative or stubborn-Townie-indicative.

OK.

[RH9]

By the way, Titus, who do you want to eliminate?

[RH9]

I get the feeling if Titus isn't CL, we're gonna lose because everyone is about to jump me tomorrow.

Unless Titus is Prime and everybody panics, and decides to lim Enchant.

[RH9]

Well, for some reason, my hope of a good flip just disappeared.

Anyone else find it funny how Jacket hammered and "was good with" an elimination that both me and RH9 are voting for? No? Just me? Alright.

Maybe he has a good reason?
I don't know really.
Though, let's hope that everything is good.

[RH9]

By the way, are you voting Bella for being opportunistic?

[RH9]

By the way, are you voting Bella for being opportunistic?

Or is it to do with 659?

[RH9]

Why are we speedrunning a loss

IDK.
We're at 6:3, right now.
If we lim Prime, it'll be 5:3.

[RH9]

I'd love to hear a "good reason" for voting alongside at least one confirmed Cult and hoping to hit the Cult Leader.

That's true.
Maybe he is Cult after all?

[RH9]

Korina/Jacket/Furtive?

Around where I'm at minus Korina.
I'm still unsure on the third Cult, though.

[RH9]

@mod
Beat needs to be prodded.

[RH9]

What sin has furtiveglance committed other than repeatedly trying to suggest to eliminate in the Venge pool?

Part of me is wondering if a Cult Leader would've gotten the hint that that is not helping his slot.

That's true.
If he's Cult, he's probably just Prime.

Beat can be a Cult Leader, sure.

I thought she was Town because I had a hard time seeing Scum making an early team case (me/Cat/Bella), because that forces them to have to re-evaluate. But looking back, Cat has flipped Town, and Beat has done... nothing to re-evaluate her position. So that case looks like an attempt at Towncred grabbing rather than a sincere attempt to solve.

That's also true.
Her last posts were mainly to do with theory.

[RH9]

I actually don’t know who claimed vengeful but if Furtive was not one, they need to die before elo on the basis of - furtive wants a vengeful dead to get a prime out, and the repeated claiming of it could actually be cl.

If furtive did claim vengeful, cool, it’s w/e

Jacket, Nathann and I claimed Vengeful.

[RH9]

I didn’t read CL pm at all, or really the setup outside of prime cultists cause recruitment.
CL is aware on a no-elim they can recruit.
Beat as CL wanted to get a prime cultist killed d3 to recruit enchant and win via the no-elim idea, and make it seem like it’s a townie play ti *not* mention anything about that to town, but actually mention it to the rest of the cult

That is interesting.
Beat did say that she didn't want Cult to know.

[RH9]

1/5 chance now.

I'm literally baffled as to why people think I'm cult, aside from disagreeing on mechanics. I've tried to be active and give insight. I feel like the scapegoat for 1) desperate cultists and 2) towns not bothered enough to try.

I think that it's because most people don't like your stance on limming Vengefuls which isn't very beneficial to Town.

[RH9]

I didn’t read CL pm at all, or really the setup outside of prime cultists cause recruitment.
CL is aware on a no-elim they can recruit.
Beat as CL wanted to get a prime cultist killed d3 to recruit enchant and win via the no-elim idea, and make it seem like it’s a townie play ti *not* mention anything about that to town, but actually mention it to the rest of the cult

That is interesting.
Beat did say that she didn't want Cult to know.

CL is aware of that fact, and could reasonably assume governer can no-elim

So you're saying that Beat pretended that Cult wouldn't know?

[RH9]

I didn’t read CL pm at all, or really the setup outside of prime cultists cause recruitment.
CL is aware on a no-elim they can recruit.
Beat as CL wanted to get a prime cultist killed d3 to recruit enchant and win via the no-elim idea, and make it seem like it’s a townie play ti *not* mention anything about that to town, but actually mention it to the rest of the cult

That is interesting.
Beat did say that she didn't want Cult to know.

CL is aware of that fact, and could reasonably assume governer can no-elim

So you're saying that Beat pretended that Cult wouldn't know?

Yes, the entire tinfoil idea revolves around not saying it publicly to “prevent cult from knowing” is a ploy to get towncred, when the cl can reasonably assume governer can no-elim

Got that.
Personally, I want Beat to explain ASAP why she thought Cult wouldn't know.

[RH9]

Also, more damning right now - the post from the mod specifically states the nightphase is skipped on non-prime death, or no-elim, so only someone who read the cl pm would know no-elim = nightphase

So yes, Beat has to be scum, or read the pm to get to that point, but occam’s dictates scum imo

I see.

[RH9]

Korina/Jacket/Furtive?

Around where I'm at minus Korina.
I'm still unsure on the third Cult, though.

Why am I not cult?

Missed this before.
I don't think that anything you did stood out to me as particularly like I would expect Cult to do.

[RH9]

Eh. I am too aware that no-lim allows cult to convert and actually called it out... On first page?

Bah.

So maybe Beat caught on from you?

[RH9]

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that Jacket is cult leader. I've voted them repeatedly, no one is joining me. People keep going "why would CL fakeclaim?" and I can tell you why, it's so they get written off as prime and never voted. I know people will ignore me on this, this is mainly just for my sanity and bragging rights post game.

Good point.
Though, I can still hardly see a Jacket wagon ending nicely.

[RH9]

Beat, so you want Jacket or furtive limmed?

[RH9]

Also, Beat, what makes you think that you might get converted?

[RH9]

furtive should have been yesterday's lim.

Titus was a terrible lim.

I see.
Is this in retrospect or not?

[RH9]

Their posts have always hovered around the null line.

I agree. Same with Beat for me.

[RH9]

Also, if I ever play cult again and role cl, I'm playing like jacket. It's refuge in audacity, isn't it. Be so scummy that you couldn't be the right kind of scum

So you think that Jacket is CL?

[RH9]

Btw right now we dealing with two Jesters who want to be elimmed, but shouldn't and circus director who want to look like they want to be elimmed, but not really.

Personally i think Jacket is cult. Not CL though.

Who are the Jesters and Circus Director?

[RH9]

Early votes on Jacket day 1 quickly dissipated, since then I've been his only voter, people either dismiss Jacket as prime or just refuse to talk about him.

I see.
Though, at that time, Jacket seemed all right.
I had liked his posts.

[RH9]

People are thinking about this game in the wrong way. CL is'n't necessarily someone widely townread, just someone who will never get voted because cultists refuse to vote for them.

I missed this earlier but wasn't Jacket widely TRed before?

[RH9]

Beat, who do you think is the Cult Leader?

Ill give you three guesses

You didn't ask me but do you think that it's Jacket?

[RH9]

I think beat still thinks me, that fun take from 23 pages ago ...

I see.
Isn't that enough time for her mind to change?

[RH9]

The fact in 23 pages you've done so little to alleviate it is a count against because instead of 8 pages of basis theres more info and little of it dissuades me.

Is this directed to Bella?

[RH9]

TBH I think that Beat seems confbiased beyond convincing.
I also would like to say that Beat did say some non-theoretical things like 358 and 394. Though, I think that her confbias probably overcame her.

[RH9]

I think I'd be more happy with the conf bias coming from town if it had a bit more... analysis around it? Or even interaction with me. I know I've said this, but furtive and beat barely talk to me, like they don't need to solve.

That's true.
I do hope that Beat changes her mind.
It feels a bit like she's decided that you're scum no matter what you say.

[RH9]

I can see them with jacket though?

Is this regarding Beat or furtive?
I'm going to assume Beat.

[RH9]

Beat comes under pressure and becomes the most active she has been all game.

That does seem to correlate.
She has posted more frequently after being put on E-2.
Though, on the other hand, correlation ≠ causation.

[RH9]

You think it's coincidence?

I mean it's likely.
Though, she was gone for 2 days before returning and posting 2/3 of the amount of her posts prior to this Day phase in sprees.

[RH9]

I'm not cult.

I see.
Then, what do you think of what furtive said in 732?

[RH9]

I think bbt!scum looks like paranoia. I have questioned you,. I talked about tin hat about you. The only person in 100% sure on is rh9.

This is towards Beat, right?

[RH9]

BBT, what is your read on Bella?
You mentioned your displeasure over her lack of sorting you.
Do you think that this comes from town!Bella, scum!Bella or could come from both?

[RH9]

People are thinking about this game in the wrong way. CL is'n't necessarily someone widely townread, just someone who will never get voted because cultists refuse to vote for them.

I missed this earlier but wasn't Jacket widely TRed before?

Yes, but *now* most people seem to agree that he's a cultist, yet won't vote him.

I see.
Do you think that it is because they want Beat gone first?

[RH9]

I don't know. All I know is Jacket is never getting voted.

I see.
You could try convincing Enchant if you want tomorrow considering that they're Governor.

[RH9]

furtive, if Jacket is CL, then who do you think are his partners?
I'm not sure if you answered this before but it would be nice if you could remind us.

[RH9]

I think it's 2 of Bellaphant/BBT/Korina.

I see.
Why BBT though?

[RH9]

1) Jacket/Nathann/RH9 claim Vengeful Townie. There are 2 in the setup. One of these 3 players is Cult.

2) I notice RH9 softing Vengeful multiple times and strongly townread Nathann from early game. I deduce that Jacket is Cult.

3) I (Town) vote Jacket (Cult), several times. If Jacket was Prime, Cult would vote with me. It helps their win condition as they can then convert town.

4) No one votes with me. Ever. Only Nathann and RH9 even listen to my thoughts. They are both town in my mind. Several shady characters - you, Bellaphant, Korina - all dissuade me from voting Jacket for various reasons, or just ignore my vote completely.

5) I deduce that Jacket is Cult Leader, as Cult are reluctant to vote them.

I see.
Though, I think that it is also possible that Beat is Prime with Jacket and Cult is planning to have Beat eliminated frst.

[RH9]

I feel tempted to vote Beat.

[RH9]

I feel tempted to vote Beat.

But then, she feels too defeatist.

[RH9]

TBH I think that Jacket seems less invested than I remember scum!him being.

[RH9]

Just in a case, Cult WANT for Vengeful die more than for Prime. For obvious reason.

I see.
Also, by the way, can you announce who you want to lim D4?
So it can help us figure out in case they convert you.

[RH9]

Just in a case, Cult WANT for Vengeful die more than for Prime. For obvious reason.

I see.
Also, by the way, can you announce who you want to lim D4?
So it can help us figure out in case they convert you.

If i am converted, i will always press "No Lim" or find excuse, so probably it will be easy. Claiming target at this point would be foolish, because i don't want give cult thoughts if i have right idea or not.

I see.
Sorry about it.

[RH9]

Do you think Jacket is CL?

Not really since he seems pretty low-effort and less involved than I would expect of him to be acting if he was.

[RH9]

Beat, do you that your flip might change people's reads on Bella?

[RH9]

This is the last vote of the game however way you slice it though. The rest is up to enchant to hit cl

That's true.
And due to plurality rules, you're probably going to be limmed even if you don't get hammered.

[RH9]

I don't want Beat to get condemned. I want people to vote with me.

Sure.
Though, I don't think that CL!Jacket would be so disinterested.

[RH9]

I'm not disinterested. I just don't have a good idea of who cult is.

I see.
Jacket, do you think that there could be Town motivation behind furtive's insistence on limming you?

[RH9]

He probably won't be jumping on anything unless to hammer. She hasn't been on E-1 yet.

Jacket did say in 872 that he didn't have a good idea of who cult was.
I think that this explains his lack of voting quite well.

[RH9]

RH9, he's basically Scumclaimed. He's just posting nonsense to not get prodded.

RH9, you understand Jacket is Cult, right?

I see.
Though, I still think that his 872 is an attempt at explaining his actions by trying to emulate Town thoughts.

[RH9]

VOTE: Jacket
He said that he didn't have good idea of who cult was anyways.

[RH9]

Imo governor claims in this setup should be object of policy elim.

Didn't you claim Governor?
Did we screw up?

[RH9]

Voting Jacket loses the game for town immediately.

What is going on?

Oh. That's true. Sorry.
VOTE: Beat

[RH9]

Actually,
UNVOTE: Beat
so that nobody can randomly hammer.

[RH9]

Is there anything you're specifically waiting for?

I worry that Jacket might instahammer like he did to Titus.
I want Jacket to answer my question first before he does that.

[RH9]

Is there anything you're specifically waiting for?

I worry that Jacket might instahammer like he did to Titus.
I want Jacket to answer my question first before he does that.

Why in the world.

It might help me solve.

[RH9]

Jacket, you're. saying that furtive's wrong town or just plain wrong and null?

[RH9]

Jacket, you're saying that furtive's wrong town or just plain wrong and null?

EBWOP

[RH9]

Furtive, Jacket and Beat seems legit.

Can we please elim Beat now?

All right.
VOTE: Beat

[RH9]

Fingers crossed.

I agree.

[RH9]

I didn't realise mass claim was common in opens.

It is a common breaking strategy though it isn't supposed to work well.

[RH9]

@mod

Would the Day end immediately after Governor votes or do they select the elimination in twilight?

[RH9]

It's taken me this long to realise that governer is not the same as mayor in blood on the clock tower.

What does Mayor do?

[RH9]

It's taken me this long to realise that governer is not the same as mayor in blood on the clock tower.

What does Mayor do?

Have chance to not die to demon attack, someone else dies instead.
If there's final 3 ppl, and Mayor alive forces No-Lim, town wins.

I see.
This explains Bella's remark.

[RH9]

But goldfish says five to eliminate? I'm even more confused now.

Me too.
I think that it might be a typo.

[RH9]

Guys I thought we would still vote, then Enchant can overturn the elimination onto a player of choice if she wants.

That makes sense.
Thanks, furtive.

[RH9]

Thanks for confirming me as Governor!

Ok ok i stop.

Btw that's not rhytoric question about "Who is CL". I expect from everyone answer their suspects.

I think Jacket or furtive by PoE.
(Since now all the people I found scummier got limmed.)

[RH9]

By the way, should we wait for Jacket to come around?
I mean Enchant might want to hear his thoughts.

[RH9]

Actually my math is wrong, we lose tomorrow if we don’t kill CL, but like, it’s irrelevant if we kill prime/vt today; math’s the same

I see.
Should we still wait for Jacket?
He said that he had no idea who Cult was which isn't too helpful.

[RH9]

Possibly? Especially if we don't think CL claims vengeful because pool is too narrow?

Also, has Furtive been pushed this game? At all? By anybody?

I've voted him for a while.

[RH9]

Should have taken the no one vote.

We would've lost.
We currently are at 4v3 but if Enchant had followed your plan, it'll be 4v4.

[RH9]

Argueing with claimed cultist is meme.

That's true.
It just feels nice to remind everybody.

[RH9]

Nathann and Enchant, who do you think Cult is?
You both said some variation of 'Jacket is claimed Cult' which I agree with.

[RH9]

Bella, if you don't mind, may you answer BBT's 1074?

[RH9]

Bella, would you mind casing BBT?
I'm not entirely swayed that he's CL.

[RH9]

Other than he has to be, my bullet pointed case is:
His frustration, as outlined above.
He never really raised his head above the parapet to get jacket Elimed, which he needed to do to win, so spent a lot of the game loudly telling people he was lost
Early game 100% supported that jacket's claim was legit
Pushed a bit on me and when I replied with a meta answer, let it be
Led all the town Lims
The 'set up '/self aware posts

I don't think he's prime becaus I think he would've played more recklessly. His whole approach to the game makes more sense if you read it through 'if bbt dies he loses'

I see but didn't Enchant get Korina eliminated? So leading lims on Town is probably NAI.
TBH I do think that the rest of what you said makes sense.

[RH9]

And TBH I think that most people supported Jacket's claim early on, me included, so that's also NAI.

[RH9]

Actually, Bella, checking the VCs, I led the elimination on Cat.Jpeg, BBT led the one on Titus, Nathann led the one on Titus, and Enchant used their ability on Korina.
So technically, BBT led only one wagon though, he was the second to vote on two others.
Which means that you are mostly right in that BBT was always among the first two people to vote three Townies in a row.

[RH9]

Nathan?

Enchant?

RH9?

Can we do this?

Just to be safe, I want to wait for Jacket's reaction.

[RH9]

By the way, would you want a compromise, furtive, and vote one of Bella and BBT?

[RH9]

There's no compromise to be had. Voting Prime means we lose. You'd have to convince me that I'd misplaced Cult Leader among them.

That's true.
But I think that your earlier point is also right, in that most people wouldn't want Jacket with you.

[RH9]

Nathan?

Enchant?

RH9?

Can we do this?

Just to be safe, I want to wait for Jacket's reaction.

furtive is confirmed cult. I need to read him to figure out who the leader is.

I see.
To help you, what do you think of Bella and BBT? From your POV, one of them has to be Town if furtive is Cult.

[RH9]

Nathann, if it helps you, BBT was interested for a while in limming between you or Jacket as per 284. In 178, furtive stated that Vengefuls claiming wasn't the best play and provided two reasons against it. Bella, on the other hand, didn't seem to care much about the Vengefuls claiming or getting voted.

[RH9]

Nathann, if it helps you, BBT was interested for a while in limming between you or Jacket as per 284. In 178, furtive stated that Vengefuls claiming wasn't the best play and provided two reasons against it. Bella, on the other hand, didn't seem to care much about the Vengefuls claiming or getting voted.

178 was a lifetime ago. But I look back and I was right. Getting venge claims derailed the game, Cult Leader hid in there and was never voted. I think we probably lose here because the people with claims have no margin for error. Anyway, if we ever do this setup again, no claiming. If you get voted as Vengeful, just take a shot at the CL. It's better that way. The role is meant to be used.

I see your point.
Though, I guess that now Jacket gets to be viewed as Prime and if he's CL, that's good on him.

[RH9]

Thanks, BBT.

Looking at this game purely mathematically, the only possible worlds are:
> Bella as the Cult Leader, Jacket + furtive as Primes (Town!BBT)
> BBT as the Cult Leader, Jacket + furtive as Primes (Town!Bella)
> Jacket as the Cult Leader, BBT + Bella as Primes (Town!furtive)

I don't know what to think otherwise. The fact that Bella's wagon existed on Day 1 with only confirmed Townies touching it, and furtive straight up avoiding look off. But then Jacket did vote Bella on Day 2. But we also know a Prime did vote their Leader at least once in the game.

I'm slightly inclined to vote Bella right now, somewhat because I still wanna believe I read the BBT/Jacket interactions as non S/S correctly, but I'm nowhere near sold on it. RH9, Enchant?

I'm still unsure.
Though, BBT's almost completely disproved Bella's case.
I can't be sure because I distinctly remember losing a ELO over getting convinced by good cases and disproving other cases.

[RH9]

I think i vote Bella soon.
If we lose, we lose.

But that'll only put her on E-2.
Unless she's a Prime and the other Cult hop onto the wagon, then we can't possibly lose with your vote.

[RH9]

I think i vote Bella soon.
If we lose, we lose.

But that'll only put her on E-2.
Unless she's a Prime and the other Cult hop onto the wagon, then we can't possibly lose with only your vote.

EBWOP

[RH9]

I see.
You worry that she's a Prime.
I think that I get it now.

[RH9]

RH9, if Bella was Prime, we would have lost.

She isn't prime. If she was prime, my vote, plus Bella self-vote plus two two other Cult votes mean we lose.

She cannot be Prime.

I see.
So Enchant's worry is that she's Town?

Rh9, it's hard because I think bbt did really well - if he didn't have to be scum I'd be struggling to vote him, but knowing what I know some of his actions look very different, if that makes sense?

I think that I get your point.

[RH9]

I don't know where the text went.

For the above, you know Furtive is scum. Why doesn't he elim Town!Bella or Prime!Bella here?

Because he's trying to make us think that Bella is CL or Bella is actually CL?
I mean either could be true.

[RH9]

I said make a case on me that isn't about the actions of your scum buddy. You literally can't? Furtive being scum isn't news, I keep asking you what I've done that's scumny and you keep pointing at him. Who everyone in the conversation knows their actions aren't organic.

TBH I think that this is a good point.

[RH9]

You think it's a good point that I haven't cased the CL directly but have indirectly cased the CL by showing how her scum buddies have interacted with her?

Has Bella even managed to do that on me? Bella is cased indirectly through the actions of her scum buddies.

I welcome her to try and do the exact same thing to me.

I think that this is a good idea. (The last sentence.)
I will probably vote in about 17 hours at the latest.

[RH9]

She's had long enough...

I guess so.

[RH9]

Vote?

I want to at least let Bella say something, out of courtesy.

[RH9]

RH9 why the fuck, Bella had 9 days.

OK.
VOTE: Bella

[RH9]

GG i was scum.

You're joking, right?

[RH9]

He's not, I'm actually Scum with him.

This is a joke too, right?
I didn't mess up another ELO, did I?

[RH9]

I tried to be sus, but not too sus. and I was sus. but somehow I wasn't sus enough and too sus.......sigh

Wait.
So you were Prime?

[RH9]

Are we still in Twilight?

[RH9]

Thanks for modding, Goldfish!
You can release my Notes PT.