Micro 1059: Micro & Normal Stuff | GAME OVER

[MegAzumarill]

VOTE: Coral
Not even a real plant.

[MegAzumarill]

i am!

i kinda think phoenix is townie

Disagree so far
38 struck me as a little lamist.

[MegAzumarill]

mmm Xayah is also town

I am very good at this game.[noone laugh at me]

Could you elaborate on this read?

[MegAzumarill]

ok

why do you suspect ausuka

mechanically I don't think a miller makes a lot of sense in a micro, there just doesn't feel like the space for it.

I don't recall ever seeing a miller be in a micro, but if you have experience with a micro with a miller, please link me.

I guess I also don't think Ausuka claims miller in the manner she does - I have a different mental model in my head about how she would claim miller if she were a miller.

It's not something that I feel confident in - just a starting point for early in the day.

Reflecting on this post I really don't like the three steps forward one step back this post has. Feels manipulative.
VOTE: Aristeia

[MegAzumarill]

I think the best way to move forward is to L-1 datisi. Days move faster with the threat of a lolhammer on the horizon, and if it does come the second day also moves fast. So i invite the miller to cast their vote, or anyone who wants to be the best player in this here lobby

"bruh" is how I feel and will leave it there

[MegAzumarill]

bruh

VOTE: ph0enix

"bruh" is how I feel and will leave it there

Also, what I'm saying

did

happen you can legit read the first few posts in the game for yourself.

I know we probably won't vote the miller claim day 1 but I do think Ausuka's reaction to rolling miller seems a tad overblown here.

:/

[MegAzumarill]

I think I might still be pocketed by Coral's sundress it's so pretty

Oh no not the sundresses again

[MegAzumarill]

Don strikes me as... reserved in a way.
I don't think it is necessarily AI but I do find it noteworthy.

I think Coral is town for a number of reasons. The 180 on aristeia *could* be scum-motivated sure. But I think it rather is more indicitive of a town move reconsidering the slot.
Datisi is really inquisitive, not shy to share and overall playing pretty solidly towny.
I feel like the way Ausuka has been interacting with other people is Town indicative. I feel like there's plenty to call the slot town regardless of claim.

scamper is meh. Not really having anyhing pointing strongly in either direction.

Aristeia felt manipulative in the post I had previously addressed and in some surrounding ones which is a res flag for me. Sure not much has happened since then but then again they haven't posted much since then either.

[MegAzumarill]

aristeia town
ausuka maf

no problem

more content would be appreciated

[MegAzumarill]

perhaps elaborate

[MegAzumarill]

coherency is overated

[MegAzumarill]

i feel like you're still not understanding what i'm saying in that post or the posts leading up to it, but i am about to pass out so. tomorrow i will rephrase if needed ig

no i'm pretty sure i understand, it's just that i don't agree with your thinking, i don't see coral/xayah as "easy" misyeets, you seem to think they are clearly town and me not seeing this reflects poorly on my alignment, i don't agree with your reasons for townreading them and the logic for doing so seems kind of reach-y

and all that being said i don't really know what it means for your alignment this game

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Straw_Man

[MegAzumarill]

Sorry for lack of recent posting but I was in a vehicle for 19 hours.
Now I sleep

[MegAzumarill]

I honestly have no clue how anything Ari has been doing in the last few pages could come from a town mindset. It's vague, weak, circular arguements for a read that hasn't been fleshed out since day 2.

[MegAzumarill]

scamper could you give some of your thoughts on your townreads so far?

[MegAzumarill]

I honestly have no clue how anything Ari has been doing in the last few pages could come from a town mindset. It's vague, weak, circular arguements for a read that hasn't been fleshed out since day 2.

i don't see how any of that matters

weak arguments != scum

i think the way she's handling her scumreads and her approach to them is generally very likely to be town, she doesnt need to put herself out in front so much as mafia and the way she is treating her reads makse me think she really believes in them

i don't think ausuka's response to ari is scummy and i'm leaning on it being +town for her too

i'm not scumreading datisi in this exchange, but i am also explicitly *not* townreading him

It's being presented in an incredibly contrived manner.
The approach is terrible logically and is transparantly bad.
Ausuka responded with the type of frustration I'd expect from a townie in this situation.

Why do you think the approach is townie? Because it puts her front and center? That is literally what a charismatic mafia would WANT to do. It's an incredibly powerful position, and I would not be surprised if this kind of position is why the whole ordeal is so convulited in the first place.

[MegAzumarill]

like meg I get you are fairly hands off and difficult to read because you don't do much as either alignment and you seem to think it is ok to play the game that way[which fair since not everyone is willing to effort] but it seems hypocritical of you to come in to shade me for "not doing things" when you haven't actually done anything for the entirety of the game.

I've been out of town.
In general I post when I have something to say which isn't all the time.
And my point isn't at you fro not doing anything. My point is what you have been doing feels scum indicative, manipulative, or too convuluted to occur naturally.

[MegAzumarill]

The fact I can make this arguement is a testament to how bad it is LMAO

[MegAzumarill]

like meg I get you are fairly hands off and difficult to read because you don't do much as either alignment and you seem to think it is ok to play the game that way[which fair since not everyone is willing to effort] but it seems hypocritical of you to come in to shade me for "not doing things" when you haven't actually done anything for the entirety of the game.

I've been out of town.
In general I post when I have something to say which isn't all the time.
And my point isn't at you fro not doing anything. My point is what you have been doing feels scum indicative, manipulative, or too convuluted to occur naturally.

Who am I manipulating for what purpose

To set up a miselim on Ausuka. (Probably not today but in the future)
To try and gain a strong scum prescence in the thread to direct conversations into this issue
To shade in a way that obfuscates your involvement

[MegAzumarill]

I honestly have no clue how anything Ari has been doing in the last few pages could come from a town mindset. It's vague, weak, circular arguements for a read that hasn't been fleshed out since day 2.

i don't see how any of that matters

weak arguments != scum

i think the way she's handling her scumreads and her approach to them is generally very likely to be town, she doesnt need to put herself out in front so much as mafia and the way she is treating her reads makse me think she really believes in them

i don't think ausuka's response to ari is scummy and i'm leaning on it being +town for her too

i'm not scumreading datisi in this exchange, but i am also explicitly *not* townreading him

It's being presented in an incredibly contrived manner.
The approach is terrible logically and is transparantly bad.
Ausuka responded with the type of frustration I'd expect from a townie in this situation.

Why do you think the approach is townie? Because it puts her front and center? That is literally what a charismatic mafia would WANT to do. It's an incredibly powerful position, and I would not be surprised if this kind of position is why the whole ordeal is so convulited in the first place.

again, you can think her reasoning is contrived and terrible logically but that doesnt make her scum. i think the conviction behind her pushing the read is genuine and her reasoning for it makes sense from her perspective and i dont actually get what your issue with it is supposed to be

no, i dont think a charismtic mafia plays the way ari has, i think charismatic scum players are good at making themselves not be the center of attention. premising it on the idea that "a good scum could play this way" is pretty terrible logic in and of itself. i think that player archetype is actually fairly rare and a player like ari is significantly more likely to take a backseat as scum.

The thing is I think Ari knows its bad and is pushing it anyway. That's not what town does. Period.

Charismatic scum players have numerous ways to play and you do realize for a good portion of the game Ari was doing that. They are always completely on the side or one of the biggest forces on the town. I just haven't seen any middle ground and it's jarring in the least.

Ari is charismatic. I'm not saying "a good mafia could do this" I am saying "it is to Ari's benefit as mafia to do what she is currently doing"

[MegAzumarill]

To set up a miselim on Ausuka. (Probably not today but in the future)
To try and gain a strong scum prescence in the thread to direct conversations into this issue
To shade in a way that obfuscates your involvement

how am I shading in a way that obfuscates my involvement?

do you think a single player here would doubt who is responsible for Ausuka being yeeted if we yeet Ausuka today or tommorrow?

Then stop pushing in a way that prompts others to take the action. Die on the hill articulating your case rather than this convuluted take of "oh you have one lim to hit scum or we kill you" It's a dissonant force you put between the two of you which is the type of thing scum would try to do even jf that wasn't an explicit intention.

[MegAzumarill]

I'll be back with an example shortly to try and articulate what I'm meaning since people seem a little confused.

[MegAzumarill]

@any player here other than MegAz

am I "shading Ausuka in a way that obfuscates my involvement" as she claims I am doing.


Please let me know if that's even remotely likely.

I think I am INCREDIBLY CLEAR about what I want.

i am not even pushing you...

i am not voting for you...

i proposed a bop that you and datisi and nobody else has agreed to

:/

[MegAzumarill]

I had a whole hypothetical prepared and everything but you just keep doing it blatantly and if people fail to see that there's not really anything I can do.

[MegAzumarill]

scamper could you give some of your thoughts on your townreads so far?

wdym thoughts? like just who im townreading, or going into details?

Anything would be great

[MegAzumarill]

I had a whole hypothetical prepared and everything but you just keep doing it blatantly and if people fail to see that there's not really anything I can do.

(1) I am not trying to kill ausuka - I am stating my theory and giving her notice. If I wanted to kill her I would vote for her and push for others to vote for her.

(2) if ausuka were to die today, it is fairly obvious I am the one who killed her because literally nobody else even seems interested in killing her

You are pushing her. Stop pretending that you are not. It's at the very least disengenuous.

You are acting in a way that would encourage Ausuka to die by elimination. These arguments you make in rebuttal of this point is why I consider it obfuscation, not because of some hypothetical world where you wouldn't be at fault for the death. You are denying what you are doing. Previously you were setting up to deny what you are doing. It is disengenuous

[MegAzumarill]

:/

Ok first I dont really understand what you mean with the 6 days thing. The game hasn't even lasted 6 days.

For that matter I don't understand why you seem so caught up in the fact I scumread you. You seem frustrated because you don't think my reasonings are valid but I disagree. Disagreemwnts are common in mafia. You should know this. It feels like a weird thing to blow up over.

Like we are playing a game. You are going to be scumread sometimes. Why are you upset? I don't make heads or tails why you seem upset.

[MegAzumarill]

It's baffling.

I'll try to pursue other alleys for the time being and let you cool down but my read on your slot hasn't changed signifigantly.

[MegAzumarill]

VOTE: scamper

I think this slot deserves a wagon. They've been knowingly withdrawn from sharing even when asked and overall their progression has felt really awkward for lack of a better term. I get the impression of possibly scum staying under the radar. Either way we need some more information coming from this slot.

[MegAzumarill]

you can try answering any of my questions instead of pretending you dont know how to read

It turns out its not my job to answer every possible motivation you could have as to doing everything you have done as scum.

Honestly you seeming to think your actions should clear you makes it feel more like a deliberate choice.

But as I've said, I feel like this isn't being productive and it feels like there's miscommunication of some part here so I'm going to drop it for now.

[MegAzumarill]

To set up a miselim on Ausuka. (Probably not today but in the future)
To try and gain a strong scum prescence in the thread to direct conversations into this issue
To shade in a way that obfuscates your involvement

this is your second post of analysis on me.

so you think my approach is

"transparently bad"

"logically shit"

but you also believe it sets up a "strong scum presence" and "sets up a mislim on Ausuka in the future" in a way that "obfuscates my involvement"





so your genius idea

is that scum!me

has decided to set up a future mislim

in a way that makes it look like I didn't do it

and also is ineffective and horribly illogical and unlikely to be convincing.

i feel like you're still not understanding what i'm saying in that post or the posts leading up to it, but i am about to pass out so. tomorrow i will rephrase if needed ig

no i'm pretty sure i understand, it's just that i don't agree with your thinking, i don't see coral/xayah as "easy" misyeets, you seem to think they are clearly town and me not seeing this reflects poorly on my alignment, i don't agree with your reasons for townreading them and the logic for doing so seems kind of reach-y

and all that being said i don't really know what it means for your alignment this game

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Straw_Man

[MegAzumarill]

meg who are your top townreads right now?

I've previously mentioned Ausuka/Datisi/ Coral and the reasons. Datisi hasn't perpetuated the same kind of inquisitiveness but it appears he has been busy so a little drop there but I'd still consider him a townlean.
Ausuka/Coral have stayed around the same with +town points for ausuka since I think they reacted with the kind of frustration I would have in the situation with ari.
Coral I may reconsider but I don't really feel the need to at this time.
Done has moved up my reads list. I don't agree with them on hardly anything but I can see their thought processes and they do seem to be wanting to move the game in a +town state.

Xayah is a palapable "ugh" read. I don't think a lot of what they are doing is +town but can't find reasonable scum motivations to the parts of their play I dislike. I'd consider them my only null read but probably more volatile than my other reads.





I'm just going to ignore Ari for the time being for the sake of everyone's enjoyment. It's a little too heated for any real progress imo.

[MegAzumarill]

lmao

[MegAzumarill]

What do you think of the situation with me and ari?

[MegAzumarill]

also: i have the 4th most posts in the game, i have been explicit about what my reads are, i have presented reasons for what i find suspect

i have no idea what "information" you are expecting from me here

Most of your posts have been in response to things in the game. It feels like you are playing around the game rather than diving in. Reactivity rather than proactivity, which is by itself NAI.

It's hard to articulate but it's an explicitly different type of information you can get out of these kind of proactive posts rather than reactive posts.

Also I keep forgetting galron exists so that's something.

[MegAzumarill]

@mod please update opening post for replacements

[MegAzumarill]

somehow missed 558 on the preview screen

Why do you think someone being town can be completely transparent? Have you ever played a game where everyone has just townread a specific player day 1 for the same reason?

I've seen it happen sometime for newbies or early claims but those are special cases.

Overall it's incredibly rare.

[MegAzumarill]

that dopesn't actually answer my question, at all

also 547 and 658 are explicitly not questions

what question are you referring to?

[MegAzumarill]

I want to put you (skitter)in a situation where you are forced to give proactive posts.

By definition I can't tell you what to post or it would be reactive.

[MegAzumarill]

thats not ari

[MegAzumarill]

VOTE: galron

I overreacted yesterday probably. still don't like Ari's push on me and don't want to rule her out as scum but I'm not sure she has that much reason to take this angle as scum rn when it feels like she would be going to extremes of anger and effort for not a massive amount of benefit? and even though I disagree I guess her blowing up at meg feels sort of towny

i don't really have any wagons I'd be interested in other than this, I think galron slot has been pretty consistently wolfy. I thought I've explained the why of it already but I'd be happy to elaborate

idk if it means anything at all but fwiw im 99.9% certain this is town!ari now

do you think ari is town from this or do you think ausuka is town

[MegAzumarill]

I want to put you (skitter)in a situation where you are forced to give proactive posts.

By definition I can't tell you what to post or it would be reactive.

so let me get this straight:

- you think i've been too reactive and this makes me scum somehow

Yes and no. I've said its NAI.

- you say you want information from me because i've been "withdrawn"

A better term is reactive, but yes

- you hope to get this by wagoning me

Yes

- somehow in your mind voting me is going to force me to play in a way that is not reactive

With suitable votes it would.

- but also youre not going to actually say what it is youre looking for or what i'm supposedly missing, because then i would be able to actually provide it

Im not asking for something like a readslist. I want to analyze behavior but its hard to find anything in the current context.

did i get all of that right?

(also its scamper, thanks)

[MegAzumarill]

VOTE: galron

I overreacted yesterday probably. still don't like Ari's push on me and don't want to rule her out as scum but I'm not sure she has that much reason to take this angle as scum rn when it feels like she would be going to extremes of anger and effort for not a massive amount of benefit? and even though I disagree I guess her blowing up at meg feels sort of towny

i don't really have any wagons I'd be interested in other than this, I think galron slot has been pretty consistently wolfy. I thought I've explained the why of it already but I'd be happy to elaborate

idk if it means anything at all but fwiw im 99.9% certain this is town!ari now

do you think ari is town from this or do you think ausuka is town

that is me talking to ausuka

no offense, but is english not your first language or something because you seem to have extreme difficulty in actually understanding the meaning of posts

It is my first language.
To be fair the post was ambiguous

[MegAzumarill]

Im not saying you aren't posting or giving info.

I just find that information NAI, maybe trending scum so far. I want you to give information in a new context.

Do you really think people being under pressure of elimination give the same content as those with no pressure?

[MegAzumarill]

My points have been heavily misconstrued so far and I'm not happy about it.

Anyway I'm off for the night. Gnight

[MegAzumarill]

i would have no problem with it if you had simply said i was scummy and deserved to be pressured. you would be wrong still, but it would make sense


the issue i have is that the things you are saying are illogical, and when i directly contradict the arguments you are making you go "no that isn't what i meant you're misconstruing me" and get evasive instead of going into what specifically you actually find scummy about my posting. it has been basically impossible to get a coherent explanation of your reasoning and you seem resistant to actually doing so. this makes you incredibly difficult to work with in any meaningful fashion and it's a serious problem if you are town

What I want from your slot != why I think you are scummy.

I think you are scummy because you've for the most part been vague about youe thought processes, have actively misconstrued players' arguments, and then denied doing just that.

What I want from your slot is information in a new context to tell if you are town playing poorly or just scum.

[MegAzumarill]

Xayah can you elaborate on your townreads?

[MegAzumarill]

The idea that scum doesn't get frustrated is baffling.
Take NQNM II for example. The same kind of frustrating blowup in a 1v1. Both sides of the argument were scum (on different teams)

I think a noteworthy part of the exchange is that it took a lot of the exchange before ari presented any suspicions about me being scum which feels like something that could be an easy conclusion to make as town in her position.

It's worth consideration imho.

[MegAzumarill]

I'm not interested in sending the rep today. Both wagons going currently are pretty good and I'd compromise to a galron lim if time comes to it.

[MegAzumarill]

yes i like 444 good post

To try and gain a strong scum prescence in the thread to direct conversations into this issue
To shade in a way that obfuscates your involvement

i dont' understand how rhese two can exist togehter

also like, i don't suderstand what scum presence is ari trying to accmplish by shitfighting w ausuka when i feel like most people just ignore/skip that sorta thing or tend to maybe scumread it

That post is a list of possible reasons. The intention was never all 3 concurrently. A or B or C not A and B and C

[MegAzumarill]

also auska is town so try again

No

why

yes i like 444 good post

To try and gain a strong scum prescence in the thread to direct conversations into this issue
To shade in a way that obfuscates your involvement

i dont' understand how rhese two can exist togehter

also like, i don't suderstand what scum presence is ari trying to accmplish by shitfighting w ausuka when i feel like most people just ignore/skip that sorta thing or tend to maybe scumread it

That post is a list of possible reasons. The intention was never all 3 concurrently. A or B or C not A and B and C

ok
still need a response to the towehr two

?

[MegAzumarill]

To try and gain a strong scum prescence in the thread to direct conversations into this issue

this feels outright false based on what i wrote in 630

I mean it took up eniugh space before that point that I considered it a valid plausible intention.

Besides scum play isn't optimal most of the time anyway

[MegAzumarill]

OK yeah that was rude sorry

I vehemently disagree with your arguments

I really don't know what you've been talking about with Ari and why you said that post would end the day

I still think we lim galron here and he's probably wanting us all to get distracted if I had to guess

Its fine

I was going to make a case on ari, and i didnt since she ended up replacing out. My anectode was just to stop the in my eyes undeserved townreads she got. So its not a case by itself.
And yes im pissed im not getting to morb my actual scumread so im going to have to deathtunnel you. Im sorry im not morbing outside the three i mentioned

Remind me who the one you wabted to kill originally was and why
thx

[MegAzumarill]

Was ari not one of the ausuka/datisi /ari trio you said you wanted to eliminate outside of?

Maybe im thinking about the wrong trio here

[MegAzumarill]

Done/Ari
Meg
Galron/Scramper/Coral
Datisi/Aus

Exactly 1 in the bottom row

i will need some actual explenations here

Xayah can you elaborate on your townreads?

Done:- I think a lot of Done's stuff this game is stuff that can easily faked, so I had to pause when thinking of where I thought they were, but the thing that really makes them a strong town for me is how they've approached slots and this game. If Done is a wolf they've put so much pressure in town's favor for no reason with just how they've acted alone. It's just more likely they're a wolf.

Ari: I thought Ari was a townie during our interaction but the blowup kinda just put them into lock town because it's very hard to fake that level of emotion as a wolf because you would know you're in the wrong and it just screams upset townie. It's clear Ari is trying to solve slots and sort players and when people didn't agree with her logic she poked and got a little upset about it. Would be very shocked if wolf.

Meg: I think Meg is a slot I could be wrong on placing this far up, but compared to the other slots I've just had a good feeling about them ever since they started posting more the angles they've taken seem to come from a place like a townie trying to figure things out not someone with all the answers, there's a level of stubbornness that wolves don't have that Meg reached.

I like all 3 here

Here is the TRs at least. Don't get the done read, though.

[MegAzumarill]

Or i will just make a short anectode showing why she can both be genuine in her anger and still be scum.

Back when i was still inexperienced i rolled scum in a newbie game. It was going very well and i was universally townread. I was also doing jackshit to help town, so win win for me. Then someone started tunneling on me for reasons i thought were complete bullshit (didnt recheck it to see if it was, i just remember being pissed about it). And he just would not let go of his tunnel on me. At that time, i was furious not just because he was right on me being scum, but because his argument made no sense and he just got a lucky guess. So we went on a tirade that was very childish of me but was still genuine, and i came out of it being townread even more. The reason was everyone thought my anger was genuine, which it was, so it made me town.

When you overlay my example with her case, it fits somewhat. Shes getting pissed because someone she views as coasting through the day without giving any effort now finds her suspicious. Shes getting angry at being scumread, but moreso by being scumread specifically by meg. I think scum!ari would believe meg doesnt deserve to have the correct read, just like i thought in my game.

I will not lynch aris replacement today, and my read wont carry over to her replacement. I wanted to point this out for anyone tring her for this reason.

you're just wrong here, i'm sorry

you can ague that in a generalized case tilt is not always scum-indicative but in particular the way ari went off is just not scum-indicative, because in between the insults she was making criticism of megs logic that were basically entirely valid

in fact this is pretty lazy shorthand to just go anger=scum

Thats not the point at all.
You really give the impression of going out of your way to misunderstand people. This is at least the third entire player you've done this too.

[MegAzumarill]

Ok reading Done's post again I feel like the only point I can get out of it is

The gamestate is stagnant so the people who are posting and trying to change that are wolves

How is this reading incorrect because that's all I can get out of it

Gamestate is stagnant despite being a lot of posts therefore at least one of the active players are helping stagnate discussion

In theory this could work but you should be able to narrow down which discussions were actually stagnating.

[MegAzumarill]

The idea that scum doesn't get frustrated is baffling.
Take NQNM II for example. The same kind of frustrating blowup in a 1v1. Both sides of the argument were scum (on different teams)

I think a noteworthy part of the exchange is that it took a lot of the exchange before ari presented any suspicions about me being scum which feels like something that could be an easy conclusion to make as town in her position.

It's worth consideration imho.

this is not what i am saying

i am saying the way ari acted in particular is very strongly town-indicative

In what way? I know you've been over this but I think you should restate.

[MegAzumarill]

Or i will just make a short anectode showing why she can both be genuine in her anger and still be scum.

Back when i was still inexperienced i rolled scum in a newbie game. It was going very well and i was universally townread. I was also doing jackshit to help town, so win win for me. Then someone started tunneling on me for reasons i thought were complete bullshit (didnt recheck it to see if it was, i just remember being pissed about it). And he just would not let go of his tunnel on me. At that time, i was furious not just because he was right on me being scum, but because his argument made no sense and he just got a lucky guess. So we went on a tirade that was very childish of me but was still genuine, and i came out of it being townread even more. The reason was everyone thought my anger was genuine, which it was, so it made me town.

When you overlay my example with her case, it fits somewhat. Shes getting pissed because someone she views as coasting through the day without giving any effort now finds her suspicious. Shes getting angry at being scumread, but moreso by being scumread specifically by meg. I think scum!ari would believe meg doesnt deserve to have the correct read, just like i thought in my game.

I will not lynch aris replacement today, and my read wont carry over to her replacement. I wanted to point this out for anyone tring her for this reason.

you're just wrong here, i'm sorry

you can ague that in a generalized case tilt is not always scum-indicative but in particular the way ari went off is just not scum-indicative, because in between the insults she was making criticism of megs logic that were basically entirely valid

in fact this is pretty lazy shorthand to just go anger=scum

Thats not the point at all.
You really give the impression of going out of your way to misunderstand people. This is at least the third entire player you've done this too.

forgive me if i'm not keen to listen on how i'm "going out of my way to misunderstand people" from someone who has difficulty comprehending the meaning of a single sentence

1. ad hominem
2. You do understand that it looks intentional on your part by a large margin right? At least fault in tour court here. I understand some dissonance from perhaps one style of posting, but its occurred so numerously at this point with three different people with three different types of writing and you still seem to be getting arguments wrong.

It's not a good look. Lack of effort, perspective, or good intent feels almost guarenteed here

[MegAzumarill]

i dont actually know how to explain this without meta, which i have been trying to avoid

but this is town!ari, i have seen town!ari act in exactly this way on multiple occasions. ari cares too much and she gets worked up about the game and blows up when she thinks someone is playing badly. none of the way she's played this game is how she plays as scum

And yet you are acting like this should be obvious public knowledge? That's my impression from how you have treated this issue with Done and me.

If you are basing this off of personal experience it seems both unfair and unlikely you would try and assume that same kind of conclusion could be made by another.

[MegAzumarill]

1. ad hominem
2. You do understand that it looks intentional on your part by a large margin right? At least fault in tour court here. I understand some dissonance from perhaps one style of posting, but its occurred so numerously at this point with three different people with three different types of writing and you still seem to be getting arguments wrong.

It's not a good look. Lack of effort, perspective, or good intent feels almost guarenteed here

i have been trying to be pretty understanding. it's not my fault that any time you're criticized you complain and change arguments

Its not my fault you critize points im not making.
Or that you seem to think any opinions that you don't share are objectively false.

[MegAzumarill]

What do you think of the situation with me and ari?

i think ari has been transparently blatantly town since fairly early and has only gotten more so since blowing up in your face. if you're unnable to see that it's either due to a total lack of perspective or purposeful obtuseness

[MegAzumarill]

1. ad hominem
2. You do understand that it looks intentional on your part by a large margin right? At least fault in tour court here. I understand some dissonance from perhaps one style of posting, but its occurred so numerously at this point with three different people with three different types of writing and you still seem to be getting arguments wrong.

It's not a good look. Lack of effort, perspective, or good intent feels almost guarenteed here

i have been trying to be pretty understanding. it's not my fault that any time you're criticized you complain and change arguments

Its not my fault you critize points im not making.
Or that you seem to think any opinions that you don't share are objectively false.

if theres anyone who is treating opinions they dont share as objectively false, its you

multiple people tell you your off base and your reasoning is flawed and you ignore everuything they say and complain that's not what you meant and get evasive, you treat every criticism as invalid, you dont even respiond to half the things that are said against you. if you're town you're one of the most solipsistic players i have ever had to deal with

Saying an argument is flawed or off base without evidence isn't really saying anything.

If you attack an argument I didn't make what is wrong with pointing it out?

[MegAzumarill]

actually stand up for the arguments you are making for once rather than being evasive

Address my actual arguments then.

[MegAzumarill]

like have you even put any basic strategic thought into why scum!me decides to tunnel town!ausuka right away from page one?

(1) What if there is a rolecop in the game that can clear Ausuka? What if there's literally any role interaction at all? How does scum me know the setup from the get go?

(2) Why target someone on claim alone? It locks the trajectory without any consideration of play - do you think I expend thread control to force the issue? Where is the motive for locking the trajectory into hardpush if Ausuka town hasn't done anything susp? why not just let someone else take the fall?

(3) Why target with an

associative

right away? If Ausuka/Dats are T/T doesn't this lock a influential vote from flipping my way? If any scum flips outside the pair doesn't this shoot my theory in the foot?

(4) Who the fuck am I even trying to persuade to vote Ausuka? Where is the manipulation happening? If it's some weird invisible manipulation to set up for Day 2, why the fuck would I even spend energy on setting it up when I don't even have a Day One Target? Is Scum!Me supposed to be supremely confident I and my scum partner will both not be able to be limmed therefore I'm focussing all my energy on day two?

(5) why do I bop Ausuka and be ok with being elimmed today ? how does that even make sense for scum me to do?

(6) who am I even manipulating to vote for Ausuka? What is the persuasive angle I am pursuing? How does it work?

(7) If everything above is some garbage wifom plot and I'm doing refuge in Audacity, what's the overarching goal? To escape elim today? I can just escape elim by not doing shit, it's not like this town is doing shit anyway.

(8) Why does any of what I'm doing necessarily have to come from Scum!me? Is it not in the interest of Town!Me to push something in a game state that is static?

:/

Ok first I dont really understand what you mean with the 6 days thing. The game hasn't even lasted 6 days.

For that matter I don't understand why you seem so caught up in the fact I scumread you. You seem frustrated because you don't think my reasonings are valid but I disagree. Disagreemwnts are common in mafia. You should know this. It feels like a weird thing to blow up over.

Like we are playing a game. You are going to be scumread sometimes. Why are you upset? I don't make heads or tails why you seem upset.

It's baffling.

I'll try to pursue other alleys for the time being and let you cool down but my read on your slot hasn't changed signifigantly.

ari hits you with a barrage of questions here, and rather than actually seeking to justify anything you are saying, you play the card of "whoa calm down you're so frustrated" and change the subject to me to avoid actually answering anything she said

I've said this before, but I'll elaborate.

1. It is not my job to explain every single choice someone makes. There are multitiudes of answers to each of these points.

2. If town!Ari would do something, scum!Ari can do that to emulate. That's why it's pointless to try and explain anything. If there's a reason for town!Ari to do it, there's a rwason for scum!Ari to.

3. Scum play isn't optimal. Scum often do things that put them in negative situations, and not all descisions are strategically calculated. (Especially well)

4. Having a laundry list of reasons you wouldn't do something as scum implies time thinking about the choice town just wouldn't. Do you closely consider the strategic implications of every move you make IF you are scum when in actuality you are town. No that's dumb.

5. Do you think any forward progress was being made at the time this occured? I pretty clearly dropped it because it surmounted to a slapfight at that time. No meaningful conversation was had.

[MegAzumarill]

i mean the biggest point against me you've tried to make in the last few pages is i'm "purposefully misconstruing things", which is just flat out untrue, there is really not much more to say to that

There are plenty of people that have vocalized that you have been doing such things. Datisi, done and myself at least.
You still deny it.

If it was a mistake you wouldn't double down and certainly not triple down.

[MegAzumarill]

You are actively harming the flow of information through the town while being incredibly (and intentionally) vague about your own opinions.

You explicitly ignore things that have been said in objective ways. As if there is room for interpretation. There isn't a lot of the time. You put words in others' mouths.

That is clearly observable from anyone that is not you.

And you question why I scumread you.

[MegAzumarill]

so your answers are anything can do anything, if town can do something scum can do it as well, no one should ever explain anything, arguing anythign is pointless, ari arguing she wouldn't do something as scum is scummy, and you don't have to answer justifying your read because it won't make "forward progress"

why do you even play tis game if that's the stuff that you believe? lie what i'm getting here is that you seem to think all argumentation and discussion is useless, you clearly don't care to actually understand or consider the perspective of anyone else, you're locked in your own little world where nothing anyone says matters because scum can do it too

you will accuse me of strawmanning you for this but i really do not care

classic scamper
now where'd I put my wiki link
you should read the page sometime

[MegAzumarill]

You are actively harming the flow of information through the town while being incredibly (and intentionally) vague about your own opinions.

You explicitly ignore things that have been said in objective ways. As if there is room for interpretation. There isn't a lot of the time. You put words in others' mouths.

That is clearly observable from anyone that is not you.

And you question why I scumread you.

i have literally not been vague or harming the flow of information at all, if anyone is doing that here it is you

lmao

anyway im getting off for a while
peace

[MegAzumarill]

if you think it's "clearly ovservable", let's see, because you're being incredibly disingenuous right now

You are making the argument that I can't read the game.

Here is what an interacrion with you looks like.

Post X *exists

Post X says X. It gives (reasons)

Scamper " Post X means Y, and Y is wrong because (reasons)"

Me: Scamper, you got Post X wrong. (This is called A misrep or a strawman depending on context)

Scamper: "no i didn't"

Can you understand that this is incredibly frustrating.

You get people's stances objectively wrong. Not even analytically wrong. Often part of X states it as explicitly not Y. It's objectively not the same argument.

You take opinions noone has and throw them in the gutter and act like these were always the opinions of players. You put words in their mouth. Whether this is intentional to discredit them or an err on your part is irrelevant.


Before you reply, take some time and think about these 3 things.

1. Do you think that continuing this conversation will amount to information that will help you win the game?
2. Is it possible I may have made an error or too promptly attacked an idea without proper consideration?
3. Are you having a good time continuing this argument, or would you prefer to put your game efforts elsewhere?

I see the trend of this and I want to kill it before it grows toxic. FMPOV you are objectively wrong on your perspective of me and yourself. You won't be able to convince me otherwise. I don't think I can get my point through to you if you are town.

I'd prefer you give at least 20 minutes of consideration before deciding if you want to continue this. I don't. I don't think anyone else wants it to continue either.

[MegAzumarill]

Hi gamma!

[MegAzumarill]

You do realize that most of what you accuse me of is literally describing you fmpov, don't you?

You've made that clear to me and my stance will stay unwavering as yours tends to be.

This only ends in an experience neither of us enjoys.

If you think continuing this argument is more important than your own enjoyment of the game, then continue. I don't agree, so I won't be.

Harp on me all you want about it. It's happened twice this game and I will stick to my guns on my stance. I don't care. If I was anyone else this would've gone down the toxicity spiral by now. That is not only unfun, but that kind of behavior is explicitly against the rules. I'm not going to intentionally take myself down a path that leads to me or another breaking the rules. Call it what you want.

[MegAzumarill]

Do you know how many layers of frustration and anger I painstakingly wipe out of each and every one of the posts I have to make regarding you?

I am actively trying to curb the toxicity. You simply aren't.

What you say your actions are =/= your actions

Intentional or not you are being toxic and you have resorted to personal attacks against me on numerous occasions.

Stop.

[MegAzumarill]

Spoiler: For Scamper

I am going to ignore you for the time being. Perhaps we can continue this delightful discussion later!

VOTE: Galron
At this point I'm happy to end the day.
Kind of want to hear Gamma's catchup.
I believe this is E-1.

[MegAzumarill]

Worst case scenario of limming is Town! Galron and Scum!Ausuka

If Galron flips Town it implies the miller claim is real. (Not much point to have a town rolecop otherwise)

It also feels like an easy claim to make as scum trying to survive another night. Possibly a OS Mafia PR. (Ninja or Strongman maybe?, would go into an attempt to get cced as well)

[MegAzumarill]

Also, I'm curious what Meg's thoughts on Ari were in the last game I remember those two being in together

Something about sundresses and a boat
I think you were there


In seriousness I haven't really used any of my prior experience with ari since it wasn't very memorable.

[MegAzumarill]

I had a whole hypothetical prepared and everything but you just keep doing it blatantly and if people fail to see that there's not really anything I can do.

???
hypothetical about what, exactly?

To clarify what I meant by obfuscating involvement and how scum would naturally tend toward it.

[MegAzumarill]

Also, I'm curious what Meg's thoughts on Ari were in the last game I remember those two being in together

Something about sundresses and a boat
I think you were there


In seriousness I haven't really used any of my prior experience with ari since it wasn't very memorable.

eh???
I don't remember you being there, were you Beat?
I was thinking of the normal mini where you were yeeted D1

Yeah the account now says it in the sig.

Probably dying day 1 is why I don't remember much about my time with ari.

[MegAzumarill]

Xayah is my thought for partner atm. I feel like the 180 last minute feels like scum trying to catch the bus last minute.
The done kill is interesting, haven't considered the ramifications yet.

[MegAzumarill]

I don't think scum! scamper kills done.

[MegAzumarill]

I don't think scum! scamper kills done.

what does the don kill tell you?

Don's flip means ausuka is almost definitely town.

But I'm not sure about the nka part of it.

[MegAzumarill]

Or i will just make a short anectode showing why she can both be genuine in her anger and still be scum.

Back when i was still inexperienced i rolled scum in a newbie game. It was going very well and i was universally townread. I was also doing jackshit to help town, so win win for me. Then someone started tunneling on me for reasons i thought were complete bullshit (didnt recheck it to see if it was, i just remember being pissed about it). And he just would not let go of his tunnel on me. At that time, i was furious not just because he was right on me being scum, but because his argument made no sense and he just got a lucky guess. So we went on a tirade that was very childish of me but was still genuine, and i came out of it being townread even more. The reason was everyone thought my anger was genuine, which it was, so it made me town.

When you overlay my example with her case, it fits somewhat. Shes getting pissed because someone she views as coasting through the day without giving any effort now finds her suspicious. Shes getting angry at being scumread, but moreso by being scumread specifically by meg. I think scum!ari would believe meg doesnt deserve to have the correct read, just like i thought in my game.

I will not lynch aris replacement today, and my read wont carry over to her replacement. I wanted to point this out for anyone tring her for this reason.

you're just wrong here, i'm sorry

you can ague that in a generalized case tilt is not always scum-indicative but in particular the way ari went off is just not scum-indicative, because in between the insults she was making criticism of megs logic that were basically entirely valid

in fact this is pretty lazy shorthand to just go anger=scum

ok i read about 1/10th of posts and i scrolled through ari's isp a bit and i wanna say this is very likely town!ari bc i really don't think scum!ari loses her nerves like this

i see galron hasn't done shit since i was last here so how many votes is he on? i wanna vote him but don't wanna lolhammer

pls link me if i need to respond to anything

Can you tell me why she doesnt tilt as scum? Can you link a scum game with a similar circumstance if you can?

also, this is what i mean with don

posts like this feel like theyre trying to undermine the possibility of people clearing ari for tilt when that was a view that was starting to get vocalized, like he doesnt want a potential miselim to slip away

Assume Scum!scamper for this.

Scamper would want to avoid a galron lim. (Wagon wasnt far but existed)
These posts would imply trying to do one of three things.
1. Trying to discredit Don.
2. Trying to apply momentum to a potential don wagon against galron.
3. Trying to set up don for a future miselim.
This would imply scamper thought don was mislimmable. Why then would they kill don? Doesn't make much sense.

Ergo scamper is probably town.

[MegAzumarill]

VOTE: Coral
Not even a real plant.

i am!

i kinda think phoenix is townie

Disagree so far
38 struck me as a little lamist.

Meg why didn't you vote for phoenix here

Didn't have very strong feelings about it at the time.

[MegAzumarill]

Xayah is my thought for partner atm. I feel like the 180 last minute feels like scum trying to catch the bus last minute.
The done kill is interesting, haven't considered the ramifications yet.

VOTE: Xayah

[MegAzumarill]

I think the main issues I have with Meg/Coral are poral opposites in playstyle but still fit the objective of a wolf. Meg's main pushes were...well not in Ph0/gals direction and the main focus seemed to be Ari and just being a loud voice in the thread to distract from their partner.

I'm not interested in sending the rep today. Both wagons going currently are pretty good and I'd compromise to a galron lim if time comes to it.

The other posts about the scum slot? Nothing in regards to Ph0 and saying "I forget Galron exists" next is just a vote on the slot near NoD it's honestly such blatantly scum partner interaction that it makes me pause because I'd like to assume a partner would at least try to have better interactions then this but on a textbook case? Yeah we get left with this.

Corals early defense of Ph0 when they were under pressure and I had to ask them about it still rubs me the wrong way. Of course, you can be wrong and simply townread a villager but I just disagreed with the method Coral did it. I mean I thought Dati/Aus had to have one but I mistook it with familiarly over TMI (woo how fun ty for explaining that to me could've avoided this mess)

They had Galron in "I would kinda let them go"/shade tier and on paper it's a better look then Meg. So for now, I'm okay with placing my vote down.

VOTE: Meg

Interested in why you think Coral's play is scum indicative

[MegAzumarill]

I think the main issues I have with Meg/Coral are poral opposites in playstyle but still fit the objective of a wolf. Meg's main pushes were...well not in Ph0/gals direction and the main focus seemed to be Ari and just being a loud voice in the thread to distract from their partner.

I'm not interested in sending the rep today. Both wagons going currently are pretty good and I'd compromise to a galron lim if time comes to it.

The other posts about the scum slot? Nothing in regards to Ph0 and saying "I forget Galron exists" next is just a vote on the slot near NoD it's honestly such blatantly scum partner interaction that it makes me pause because I'd like to assume a partner would at least try to have better interactions then this but on a textbook case? Yeah we get left with this.

Corals early defense of Ph0 when they were under pressure and I had to ask them about it still rubs me the wrong way. Of course, you can be wrong and simply townread a villager but I just disagreed with the method Coral did it. I mean I thought Dati/Aus had to have one but I mistook it with familiarly over TMI (woo how fun ty for explaining that to me could've avoided this mess)

They had Galron in "I would kinda let them go"/shade tier and on paper it's a better look then Meg. So for now, I'm okay with placing my vote down.

VOTE: Meg

Interested in why you think Coral's play is scum indicative

I think her play around the wolfslot and defense of it feels different then a lot of the other players as in. Like there's an in-deph defense of Ph0 that she hangs onto but when Gal replaces in it just goes to "meh" like the downgrade is wolfy and you don't wanna hold onto that so much.

There is no mention of Coral in Gal's iso and Ph0 questions why Coral is in a wolfy list then puts her as the second strongest wolfread after me it's odd. I don't get that odd feeling in regards to other slots.

I feel like that downgrade would be more town indicative since it correlates to a drop in the amount of content rather than ot being from a partnership itself.

[MegAzumarill]

Who is it if it isn't me Meg?

GE or Datisi would be my guesses.

[MegAzumarill]

Who is it if it isn't me Meg?

GE or Datisi would be my guesses.

popping in at work to see this, i am very curious how you came to these two slots

I don't think its scamper after reconsidering the slot.
Coral I heavily townread.
Ausuka is a townread by play and the claim fits with done's flip.

I haven't found your play town indicative for a while. GE hasn't done a lot and I've been vocal on my scumread of ari.

[MegAzumarill]

Coral all throughout the game has been very analytical, nuanced, and her thoughts feel really grounded within the game. It's evident that they are trying to solve the game beyond just a surface level to try and appear townie.

[MegAzumarill]

I don't really understand what you're trying to say. Of course I wouldn't necessarily expect Coral to hard townread their scumbuddy but the argument you were making was based on the premise that Coral had a high degree of confidence in this read and therefore it's strange that she changed it over time. Based on what she actually posted I think this interpretation is wrong. Given that I'm not Coral I'm not sure why you're speaking as if I have an ulterior motive in defending her here, unless you think there are three mafia in the game.

Yes, but the thing people are getting stuck on is they're taking:

Coral said it was slightly towny so that's not high confidence
vs
Corals actions in the game that display such high confidence that makes the read change odd.

Give examples

[MegAzumarill]

I don't really understand what you're trying to say. Of course I wouldn't necessarily expect Coral to hard townread their scumbuddy but the argument you were making was based on the premise that Coral had a high degree of confidence in this read and therefore it's strange that she changed it over time. Based on what she actually posted I think this interpretation is wrong. Given that I'm not Coral I'm not sure why you're speaking as if I have an ulterior motive in defending her here, unless you think there are three mafia in the game.

Yes, but the thing people are getting stuck on is they're taking:

Coral said it was slightly towny so that's not high confidence
vs
Corals actions in the game that display such high confidence that makes the read change odd.

Give examples

Already did.

I mean those haven't been particularly convincing.

[MegAzumarill]

scamper feels good

As long as the Elims are me Meg Coral game ends so shrug.jpg

(Well I need to read Dat more but give me a bit on that)

If I was to order the murkey pool in order of likelihood to be a wolf it'd prob go scamper>Coral>Galron

You should also probably explain why you're willing to bet the game on a "scamper feels good" given that your most recent read there had them above only Datisi/Ausuka.

Other way around.

the alligator eats the bigger cookie

I make alligator shoes. But yeah, other way around.

How is it the other way around? You said in order of likelihood to be a wolf. And then you put scamper first in that order. With a symbol indicating that scamper was greater in likelihood than me and Galron. That means you think they're most likely to be a wolf.

I think they mean they got the sign backwards

[MegAzumarill]

scamper feels good

As long as the Elims are me Meg Coral game ends so shrug.jpg

(Well I need to read Dat more but give me a bit on that)

If I was to order the murkey pool in order of likelihood to be a wolf it'd prob go scamper>Coral>Galron

You should also probably explain why you're willing to bet the game on a "scamper feels good" given that your most recent read there had them above only Datisi/Ausuka.

Other way around.

the alligator eats the bigger cookie

I make alligator shoes. But yeah, other way around.

How is it the other way around? You said in order of likelihood to be a wolf. And then you put scamper first in that order. With a symbol indicating that scamper was greater in likelihood than me and Galron. That means you think they're most likely to be a wolf.

I think they mean they got the sign backwards

Or they were saying in order of

increasing

likelihood

[MegAzumarill]

VOTE: Xayah

[MegAzumarill]

@meg, can you give me some examples of coral posts that you found analytically/nuancedly townie?

i just half-read through her iso, and while her posts aren't

bad

, i don't think i've seen anything that struck me as "this is analytical in a way that i really struggle seeing scum fake this". i don't think she's scum for it obviously, but it does make me wanna see more elaboration on the claim she's town for it.

i do think 476 and 482 (calling ari/ausuka/meg townie when they were shitfighting) are +town, considering that galron was already getting suspicion on him, and ausuka had just called out more of his posts. like, coral was at the time voting xayah, and i don't think that wagon was very likely to go though. and she also said she's still suspicious of don, which had a bit more chance to go though, but galron was already voting there and i don't think(?) scum is eager to double up like that in that gamestate. and the next person she'd logically push would be galron, based on 279.

this also strikes me as a counterintuitive progression to have as scum with galron. it doesn't help galron, it doesn't look good as a bus.

I'd wagon Xayah. The misreps I go back and forth on, it seems like something that will easily get called out. But 101 and 107 felt weird to me. There's a very strange level of hedge in the way she expresses her read in those posts and it feels awkward.
VOTE: Xayah

I feel like scum in this position would probably take the surface level approach to pushing xayah here, instead coral goes forr a more nuanced read when there's not that much motivation for doing so as scum, especially early on.

[MegAzumarill]

I think we have reached a point for Xayah to at least claim.

[MegAzumarill]

I would prefer not having to reveal my role today. I don't think reordering here works in town's favor even assuming town!Xayah.

[MegAzumarill]

Well, I personally doubt Meg has some big claim that would make them obv town given a goon as flipped and I think mafia prob have a rolecop or something.

But what I consider a balanced setup is not what MS prob views a good setup. I think the only way a massclaim would be good is if we have another PR that isn't Meg like they're sorting cause that's almost cc based.

So tldr: I don't think it solves much

I would be more than willing to claim first if we come to massclaim, but I think we should wait until after mafia's n2 kill.

[MegAzumarill]

Honestly earlier I was probably kidding myself that scum might think I'm some role that would be worth nightkilling besides the suspiscuon on me. I think it benefits town to have me claim today for reasons that should be apparant with my claim.

That said, I'm not VT. I am a Town Backup Neighborizer.
I am still against anyone else claimimg today.

[MegAzumarill]

If massclaim is still happening I'll popcorn to datisi.
I have wome rereading to do

[MegAzumarill]

I've been going back and forth between sharing something now or after massclaim and am leaning toward the latter.

Right now I'm waiting for something to happen.

[MegAzumarill]

I think it gives scum more information to work with before they finalize their claim.

[MegAzumarill]

Probably harmless but I don't see any reason NOT to wait until afterward.

[MegAzumarill]

Yes thoughts do tend to change as either alignment when there's more information abailable.

I don't see your point though.

[MegAzumarill]

you don't see a point why scum!you wouldn't want to present reads that could age awkwardly if claims go down a certain way amd force you into awkward re-evals or just straight up make you die?

No I get that concept, but where are you going with this?

i mean

i feel like you can adjust your ~thoughts~ based on claims?

This is true regardless of my alignment. So?

[MegAzumarill]

I'm getting the impression scum is currently probing players trying to figure their plan to moving forward.

[MegAzumarill]

It's less I think that people are scum for doing it, rather that the people I think are scum ARE doing it.

[MegAzumarill]

It was plural no?

[MegAzumarill]

I found when going back through your posts yestterday for datisi a lot of the posts I had originally found town indicative involved phoenix/galron in a positive light or elsewise able to be contextualized from that flip.

[MegAzumarill]

Yes

[MegAzumarill]

Because although the posts *can be recontextualized in that way, It's no hard evidence and I still find the posts I did mention +town.
Leaves me conflicted about your slot and Xayah was still far more into scum territory.

I also think you had a decent chance of eating a nightkill.

[MegAzumarill]

The claims are.... interesting.

Datisi's makes some sense to me since I found their push on me day 2 odd which nakes more sense with a neopolitan check.

Ausuka is literal confirmed town now. Scum!scamper would mean there were 2 VTs, which is kind of ridiculous if scum has anything less than omniscience as their role.

That leaves Coral/Datisi suspect pool, which I was at anyway. I think after the claims I lean more towards Coral.

I've been very torn between the two going into today.

[MegAzumarill]

Also I think the informed aspect of coral's role is noteworthy.
Informed neighborizer could honestly be the last mafia, while just plain neighborizer feels less likely.
I don't know why scum!coral leaves in the informed part if they are scum though. Only thing I can think is trying to cover TMI up but I don't think anyone has particularly called them out over their interactions with ausuka in a meaningful sense.

[MegAzumarill]

The claims are.... interesting.

Datisi's makes some sense to me since I found their push on me day 2 odd which nakes more sense with a neopolitan check.

Ausuka is literal confirmed town now. Scum!scamper would mean there were 2 VTs, which is kind of ridiculous if scum has anything less than omniscience as their role.

That leaves Coral/Datisi suspect pool, which I was at anyway. I think after the claims I lean more towards Coral.

I've been very torn between the two going into today.

what was it u were waiting until after claims to say?

It was mainly my stance about having no clue between datisi/ coral and my resons for each but most of that ended up being implied/ fairly obvious.

One good thing is datisi's claim of having a psedoguilty on me day 2 before I directly commented on it which is +town in theory, which is partly why I'm leaning more toward coral now.

[MegAzumarill]

Also I think the informed aspect of coral's role is noteworthy.
Informed neighborizer could honestly be the last mafia, while just plain neighborizer feels less likely.

I don't know why scum!coral leaves in the informed part if they are scum though. Only thing I can think is trying to cover TMI up but I don't think anyone has particularly called them out over their interactions with ausuka in a meaningful sense.

This is slightly still applicable, but less so since Coral said she claimed this in PT night 1 so little setup info was available.

[MegAzumarill]

I've been going back and forth between sharing something now or after massclaim and am leaning toward the latter.

Right now I'm waiting for something to happen.

What exactly were you referring to here then? What were you waiting to happen?

Sharing my general thoughts of this gamestate. This is effectively a situation where scamper/ausuka choose one of me/you/datisi to live and the others to be elimmed.
Massclaim.

[MegAzumarill]

I suppose there is also the secondary benefit of a coral elim allowing me to use my ability, but that's only a 50/50 of being useful at all.

[MegAzumarill]

I suppose that's not my deciscion to make though.

[MegAzumarill]

Because Ausuka was still effectively confirmed town at that point.
Scamper would be a hard slot to try and mislim here so scum!you or scum!datisi have a fairly clear win path of elimming the other as well as me.

[MegAzumarill]

The funny part of datisi being scum would be my immediate setup spec of the setup (after ausuka claimed) would be about exactly right minus the informed modifier on coral.

[MegAzumarill]

I don't see a clear win path for datisi as scum with that claim. *Maybe trying to push me over today and go for 50/50 in lylo.

[MegAzumarill]

It's a very odd endgame here

[MegAzumarill]

It was mainly my stance about having no clue between datisi/ coral and my resons for each but most of that ended up being implied/ fairly obvious.

weren't you strongly townreading coral up until today? like, ik you were suspecting me/gamma yesterday, so after gamma's death, what made you go me/coral?

to add to this a bit, meg said that they found coral to be town bc she was being analytical/nuanced. i don't see how that goes away if coral was talking about phoenix, bc making analytical posts as scum is theoretically equally difficult if aimed at townies or aimed at scumbuddy

You don't think scum has more reason to have a nuanced townread on their partner than on a townie? Difficult or no they have better reasons to do so.

[MegAzumarill]

VOTE: meg

I don't think I am going to change my mind that this has to die before endgame

Do you think there could be value in me getting to share my neighborhood?

It's been semifrequently used as a notes pt up to this point. If you think getting a chance to view into my thought processes a little more before I die has value I urge you to vote coral.

I think a lim order of me today is always going to benefit scum more than me tomorrow.

[MegAzumarill]

Assume I flip town: who does that make scum?

[MegAzumarill]

i feel like we're getting distracted by mechanical shiny bullshit

coral committed to a roleclaim as scum very VERY early, which is something i really struggle to see coming from scum

These feel counterintuitive to each other, both condemning people for mechanical analysis and yet clearing someone specifically for an early claim in a PT they have full control over.

It feels like trying to take only mechanics that's beneficial to what they are trying to do right now but ignoring the ones that go against them.

[MegAzumarill]

Why would it be beneficial for scum datisi to clear me?

Because it lets them ml me and end up in a scamper/Coral/Datisi endgame.

I think the appeal for scum!dats is obvious

[MegAzumarill]

and u have to ask yourself why scum needs a *backup neigborizer* in a micro, thats such a profoundly useless role

it does provide a safe claim against th neap i guess (while the goon is immune to the complex cop) but that still seems really incredibly weak in contrast to everything else in the setup

I don't think they think I'm mafia backup neighborizer, perhaps informed backup neighborizer, mafia informed, mafia rolecop, etc.

[MegAzumarill]

i think the 180 on coral from meg is very suspicious

I don't really see coral here and I'm sorry if I'm wrong and pocketed or whatever but that's just what i think

Pedit: ok? whatever then

I mean I was townreading everyone here at some point. The alternative to town!me doing this is what? Conclude there are no scum?

Imagine me as town
What would you expect me to do in this situation that I am not doing?

[MegAzumarill]

I mean at this point the optimal path for me as either alignment is the same.

[MegAzumarill]

The nightkills have put me in an incredibly awkward position if i was scum and I don't see how you can justify me actively harming my position like that.

[MegAzumarill]

The nightkills have put me in an incredibly awkward position if i was scum and I don't see how you can justify me actively harming my position like that.

What alternative kills could have given you a better position?

N1 Kill Ausuka
N2, assuming I killed done n1, Literally anyone but GE helps my position.

[MegAzumarill]

Ausuka was a claimed non-vanilla, potentially clearable, and never going to be eliminated.
Done was fairly dissonant player who would not be the hard to mislim.

GE being alive would give me a clear path to push toward, even if unsuccessful I was getting townread for that persitance while GE is alive, and it gives me the time to do a turnaround more gradually on whoever I did want eliminated the next day. In a sense it gives me the time to make whatever I wanted feel more natural.

I don't see a palpable reason to kill GE as scum!me here.
If i wanted to, I would have played differently in D2.

[MegAzumarill]

I don't know why town!meg decides that I could make sense as scum partners with Phoenix late yesterday while rereading at prompting of Datisi, but instead of expressing those thoughts at all, continues to defend me, waiting to turn until after letting the elimination on Xayah go through.

The argument I suppose is that they were still more confident on Xayah and needed to see that flip in order to re-evaluate, but it seems pretty convenient.

I also think their trajectory today was overinformed. They were prepared to clear scamper before the massclaim had completed, and then their reasoning for clearing scamper was based on the massclaim.

Here's a good visualization.

Before reconsidering
Town:
Ausuka
Scamper/Coral
Datisi

Scum:
Gamma Emerald
Xayah

After reconsidering
Town:
Ausuka
Scamper
Datisi/Coral

Scum:
Gamma Emerald
Xayah

[MegAzumarill]

What would be your reaction in that situation?

[MegAzumarill]

The nightkills have put me in an incredibly awkward position if i was scum and I don't see how you can justify me actively harming my position like that.

What alternative kills could have given you a better position?

N1 Kill Ausuka
N2, assuming I killed done n1, Literally anyone but GE helps my position.

I do not sincerely believe any scum player would kill a claimed miller on N1, particularly after a scumflip in a micro where power roles are even more threatening than usual

Miller >VT

I have moderated a game where the d1 miller was a town power role

Without explocit knowledge of the setup its a >average kill.


So you are saying that a fairly low charisma scum player would decide a blind shot is better than guarenteed value on a night one kill?

[MegAzumarill]

And you are saying every single scum player would take that risk?

It sounds straight up ridiculous

[MegAzumarill]

Especially since galrons claim d1 implies scum do not know much pregame info about the setup.

[MegAzumarill]

Yeah? Miller kill as 'guaranteed value' does not feel true

It's a named townie. It also has interactions with other town powerroles, which can be inferred to mean at some point it will make mechanical sense to exist, ergo the slot will be mechanically defended.

[MegAzumarill]

Like genuinely who nightkills a miller out of fear of its power?

I have played many games on ms. I am pretty sure I have never even seen a scumteam think about killing a miller claim for its role utility

My memory could be fooling me but I would have to see evidence to ever buy this is a real line of thinking.

I would, especially when it was clear day 1 you were never being mislimmed.

[MegAzumarill]

I think Meg is scum here and townread everyone else

So tomorrow you'll have to 180 on someone.

Oh the irony

[MegAzumarill]

I think Meg is scum here and townread everyone else

So tomorrow you'll have to 180 on someone.

Oh the irony

I am not criticising you for 180ing if you are town here

I just think the way you did it is scummy

I'll be honest I don't think I'd play this day different as scum.

[MegAzumarill]

I don't particularly want to CFD so there's not much to say.
Without ausuka/dats votes which look like they won't happen I pretty much have to be the elim.

I'm probably about 55/44 with scum!dats and scum! coral right now, but the former isn't logistically viable to push here.

Whichever is scum has done a great job. Best of luck to who of scamper/Ausuka survives the night to find them.

I'm not quite sure what coral claimed in the neighborhood pregame, but it sound like less than a full claim the more people talk about it which feels..... odd if they are actually town. That said I don't have the relevant context of the PT.

[MegAzumarill]

I've said my piece.

[MegAzumarill]

Goodluck tomorrow

[MegAzumarill]

I think you did fine.
It was a tough endgame and you were convinced of town!coral and a Datisi lim wasn't happening that day.