Mini Normal 2283 - Game Over!

[Grib]

But I did give reasons for why the things that jumped out at me felt more scum-indicative than not. You just disagreed with them.

I tend to stick with asking "would town do this, yes or no?" rather than asking if scum would do it, because I find that scum players are, in general, more likely play in ways that defy expectations. But I also spent most of my mafia games in two communities and played with the same overlapping group over and over again, so there was a higher tendency for zany scumplays.

See, here's the thing: I do not think you're actually doing a lot of "would town do this yes or no."

Again, perfect example is your picking at the me and frogster thing. You didn't stop to think at all whether it would make any sense at all for me and frogster to purposefully do that as scum but it was a WEIRD THING you could point out to look like you were trying to find our alignment.

In my defense, it was silly to automatically think you and Frog were scum together for that reason. I was juggling a lot of scenarios in my head and that's the one I puked up.

Really, it sparked the possibility that you were either idly skimming the thread at the time and lied about it, or you were active in scumchat and someone else mentioned that Frog was baiting you.

[Grib]

Your scum team of me HPE and solway is another example of just...complete lack of critical thinking. You think my play as scum would be to spend the whole day just saying my buddy is town for no reason and refusing to explain when asked? Why? In what world would scum act that way.

It's like you're stopping at baseline level of "I think HPE is scum, shea defended HPE, therefore shea must also be scum" without thinking that the world where I stick my neck on the line for a barely posting scum buddy for no reason and then steadfastly refuse to explain is essentially nil.

Sure, that's a fair interpretation, and that's also why I brought it up - so it can be dissected and analyzed. What I lack for in critical thinking skills, I try to bring to the table so other people can discuss it and maybe I can walk away with a different viewpoint.

In no universe do I want to have a thought and then just push it mindlessly. I've done it a fair amount when I started playing and learned my lesson that it was a bad way to go. Personally, I don't think I have the thinking capacity to play mafia effectively, but I enjoy it anyways.

[Thestatusquo]

That's kind of a contradiction, no?

Even if you think the way I approach the game lacks critical thinking, I think it's pretty obvious that I'm trying to understand other players and leave little room for misunderstandings, or misconstruing their posts. You said yourself that I "demand" justification from other people, and that is precisely why. And I feel like you're not making that connection on purpose, which is one reason I'm entertaining a world where you're scum.

Do you feel the same way about my read on Solway?

Trying to exact words that people say is not the same as trying to understand why they're saying them.

What read on solway?

Is Solway trolling? The posts on this page look awfully troll-y.

What I really want to know is why BBT’s read on Bella meta-based.

I'm having a pretty time sorting reads. There's too many slots where I'm like, yeah their content isn't great but I think they could be villagers because they don't seem to care how they're read? Which is pretty annoying.

For example, I want to townread Elements because they clearly don't give a shit and had a fair amount of votes on them for most of Day 1. And they've had a couple of detailed takes that I agreed with, or that I felt were aimed to clear things up rather than cast doubt or confusion.

I have mixed feelings like that on them, HPE, Solway, and Eira. I'm completely ignoring NM and Enchant, don't really know what to do about them now or ever, unless they decide to start playing seriously Day 2 or 3.

VOTE: Solway Firth

I triple checked to make sure this wasn't E-1. I did skim the recent pages this morning and saw someone asked me why I put BBT at E-1. That was just a derp on my part. I counted five votes, placed my vote, and then had the number five in my head so I thought that was the fifth vote when it was most definitely the sixth.

Think Solway is clearly a good elim here. As we approach deadline his last five posts have all been nothingburgers about why he's taking BBT's Bella read at face-value. No idea where he stands on the rest of the game aside from his one readslist. No idea of his opinions on anything that's happened in the last handful of pages. All of the people he's scumleaning (or was scumleaning, if his reads are the same since he posted them) are on his wagon, so I would expect him to rethink what a realistic scumteam would look like here. But he's probably just going to vote Aisa because scumlean + self-preservation.

I see no real arguments for solway being scum. It's basically a lurker case.

[Bellaphant]

I think grib knows the solve is a bit lame? Like I don't massively town read any of those three but that team just screams 'convenient'. I don't think it's sunny for him to suggest it though.

Like, I kinda think there's a scum in the lurker pile, a scum in the big ego posters and a scum in my middle pile. But again, life is never that easy.

@tsq, do you mean the push for solway is a 'lim all lurkers' push generally or just for grib?

[Grib]

I mean, there were other posts too.

I don't like gribs votes moving with momentum rather than actual changes. He's now reevaluated BBT twice and both times nothing had changed except the momentum of the wagon.

Well, people are complaining about consolidating and not having a last minute rando wagon. Let’s be real, the only real momentum the BBT wagon had was due to your case, and I decided that wasn’t enough for me. I paid more attention to the people saying that BBT often gets flack for playstyle.

Anyway, Solway has momentum, that slot isn’t villagery enough imo, there were some takes I agreed with but I also massively feel like he’s making easy posts. Which is ??? when he did say that this game his thoughts are much more fleshed out than he usually plays.

I feel like I should include Solway's response to that post, for extra context.

Spoiler: Solway response

VOTE: solway

Solway is low posting scum writing longer catchup posts to try and get Townread.

Low

certainty.

What posts would you describe as "long catchup posts"

And what about catching up is more likely to come from scum than town?

It makes the posts easier to write, it makes it easier to avoid faking interactions and it makes it easier to monitor the thread carefully and double check everything your saying. I get the sense that Solway is monitoring the thread very carefully and is being cautious in what he says and I think that combined with lurky + unusual activity in the thread in response to what's happening is more likely to come from scum.

I have not lurked. My activity patterns are based on my schedule and how much I have to do during the day. I have lots of time now to catch up, and that is what I am doing. Tomorrow I won’t be able to post in the evenings, but I will be able to post for in the mid-afternoon but only in the mid-afternoon. That’s just a consequence of my schedule.

I have never been as verbose as I have this game. In fact, I always try to condense my posts into the highest possible density. I’m using this game to see what happens if I flesh out my ideas in the thread as much as I possibly can.

Here in the present, I think it's pretty clear that even though Solway isn't necessarily stuck in "long catchup posting" mode, he still isn't really engaging with the actual flow of events in the thread. And if this is the most he's able to flesh out his ideas, I don't think I'd be able to read him at all if he posted the way he normally does.

Or HPE, really. Solway just has the most momentum right now though, and I think his behavior as the phase winds to a close isn't indicative of a villager.

TSQ is tricky, and one I'm going to save for last because there's a chance that I'm just scumreading his playstyle. He's not someone I'd feel good about misreading and killing off.

[Thestatusquo]

Really, it sparked the possibility that you were either idly skimming the thread at the time and lied about it, or you were active in scumchat and someone else mentioned that Frog was baiting you.

But this is exactly what I'm talking about. There's a next step that someone trying to discern my alignment would get to, which is: Is there any reason they would do this if they were scum? Why would shea lie about reading the thread as scum? Why would shea feel the need to respond to his scum buddy in that way?

It's surface level.

Throughout that whole interaction I never felt like you were actually trying to figure out if I was scum or not, you had just thought of one plausible scenario where you could say maybe I would be scum so you decided to throw it out into the thread.

[Grib]

I think grib knows the solve is a bit lame? Like I don't massively town read any of those three but that team just screams 'convenient'. I don't think it's sunny for him to suggest it though.

Like, I kinda think there's a scum in the lurker pile, a scum in the big ego posters and a scum in my middle pile. But again, life is never that easy.

@tsq, do you mean the push for solway is a 'lim all lurkers' push generally or just for grib?

There's really nothing convenient about scumreading TSQ. I almost didn't want to post it until Day 2, when we had two flips to work with.

[Thestatusquo]

I think grib knows the solve is a bit lame? Like I don't massively town read any of those three but that team just screams 'convenient'. I don't think it's sunny for him to suggest it though.

Like, I kinda think there's a scum in the lurker pile, a scum in the big ego posters and a scum in my middle pile. But again, life is never that easy.

@tsq, do you mean the push for solway is a 'lim all lurkers' push generally or just for grib?

I meant that grib asked me to respond to his reasoning on solway and for me his reasoning mostly boils down to "This slot is kind of inactive and there's momentum there."

I'd expect grib to have more reasons that that at the end of this day and at least a few that demonstrating he's actually thinking about the alignment of people rather than just pointing out convenient things.

[Grib]

Really, it sparked the possibility that you were either idly skimming the thread at the time and lied about it, or you were active in scumchat and someone else mentioned that Frog was baiting you.

But this is exactly what I'm talking about. There's a next step that someone trying to discern my alignment would get to, which is: Is there any reason they would do this if they were scum? Why would shea lie about reading the thread as scum? Why would shea feel the need to respond to his scum buddy in that way?

It's surface level.

Throughout that whole interaction I never felt like you were actually trying to figure out if I was scum or not, you had just thought of one plausible scenario where you could say maybe I would be scum so you decided to throw it out into the thread.

Okay, but that in itself doesn't sound like a reason to scumread me. Just that I jump the gun on reads. Like what is the scum motivation for throwing that read out into the thread? Because I like sparring with you? I promise, I don't.

[Grib]

In any case, I don't think I'm going to be able to convince you I'm a villager and vice versa. People have complained about how much we post, so I'm going to drop it here. And I do hear you on the HPE thing, so I can drop that too for the time being.

[Thestatusquo]

The reason I scum read you is I do not think you're trying to figure out people's alignment, you know, the baseline of what a townie is trying to do, and that's a pretty disingenuous point at the end there. As you said yourself you didn't even know who I was when you initiated that exchange.

Like I didn't even know who Shea was until he popped in at that time. Didn't catch the user title in their first post.

[Thestatusquo]

In any case, I don't think I'm going to be able to convince you I'm a villager and vice versa. People have complained about how much we post, so I'm going to drop it here. And I do hear you on the HPE thing, so I can drop that too for the time being.

Right, OK. But 'How' did I look bad and why is it bad = scum and not bad = town? Like, what specifically makes me scum?

Tone, reaction, vibes, etcetera. This one simply thinks you're acting like scum in it's eyes based on the what it's seen from your bouts with TSQ. If you wanna argue against that, go ahead,

but it probably ain't really gonna change this one's opinion on you and the situation

.

Independent of the read on BBT, the mindset of this post is pretty bad. I think the underlined is +scum motivated rather than +town.

Hmmmmm.

[Grib]

Sorry, "I hear you and I'll drop it" doesn't work on things that happened seventy pages ago? What are you trying to say with that post?

[Grib]

seventy posts, not pages

[Bellaphant]

I think grib knows the solve is a bit lame? Like I don't massively town read any of those three but that team just screams 'convenient'. I don't think it's sunny for him to suggest it though.

Like, I kinda think there's a scum in the lurker pile, a scum in the big ego posters and a scum in my middle pile. But again, life is never that easy.

@tsq, do you mean the push for solway is a 'lim all lurkers' push generally or just for grib?

There's really nothing convenient about scumreading TSQ. I almost didn't want to post it until Day 2, when we had two flips to work with.

?? Explain this to me?

[Grib]

Maybe I don't understand what you mean by that scumteam being convenient.

[Thestatusquo]

Sorry, "I hear you and I'll drop it" doesn't work on things that happened seventy pages ago? What are you trying to say with that post?

In any case, I don't think I'm going to be able to convince you I'm a villager and vice versa.

Right, OK. But 'How' did I look bad and why is it bad = scum and not bad = town? Like, what specifically makes me scum?

Tone, reaction, vibes, etcetera. This one simply thinks you're acting like scum in it's eyes based on the what it's seen from your bouts with TSQ. If you wanna argue against that, go ahead,

but it probably ain't really gonna change this one's opinion on you and the situation

.

I think the underlined is +scum motivated rather than +town.

Hmmmmm.

Just a demonstration of surface level reasoning. You're saying the bolded is scum indicative for...reasons you don't explain, but then you are literally almost word for word doing the same thing you called +scum in the second bolded part.

Presumably you'd know if you're town, right? I dont think either is +scum. I don't see a reason why they would be, but you doing the thing you say is +Scum just a few pages is a hilarious demonstration of the lack of critical thinking about discerning alignment that I'm talking about.

[Firebringer]

How much time we got
I am phone posting

[Grib]

Ah.

The difference is I've been making an active attempt, whereas I personally don't think HPE has. Also nobody has complained about the number of HPE's posts.

And what I meant was, you might not be able to convince me, but your future actions might, or your past actions might after some flips or role reveals. Or someone else's read of you will resonate with me. But you arguing for your own alignment probably isn't going to work. Same thing with me trying to show you that I'm town.

[Grib]

How much time we got
I am phone posting

Like 20-ish hours.

[Firebringer]

Has anyone posted that the solway wagon reeks

[Thestatusquo]

Both wagons reek.

[Firebringer]

The reason I scum read you is I do not think you're trying to figure out people's alignment, you know, the baseline of what a townie is trying to do, and that's a pretty disingenuous point at the end there. As you said yourself you didn't even know who I was when you initiated that exchange.

Like I didn't even know who Shea was until he popped in at that time. Didn't catch the user title in their first post.

Disagree
He was def trying to sort first ten pages
I don’t like this solway push of his but he is def sorting
Maybe it’s surface level to u tho w/e didn’t I say I was gonna stop arguing u on townreads or just bbt

[Thestatusquo]

The reason I scum read you is I do not think you're trying to figure out people's alignment, you know, the baseline of what a townie is trying to do, and that's a pretty disingenuous point at the end there. As you said yourself you didn't even know who I was when you initiated that exchange.

Like I didn't even know who Shea was until he popped in at that time. Didn't catch the user title in their first post.

Disagree
He was def trying to sort first ten pages
I don’t like this solway push of his but he is def sorting
Maybe it’s surface level to u tho w/e didn’t I say I was gonna stop arguing u on townreads or just bbt

He's not.

[Grib]

And maybe I'm misrepping what HPE said. I took it as saying that the slot would not change its mind on BBT no matter what BBT said, but maybe the nuance was something completely different and I just didn't read it that way.

I just think that openly stating you aren't going to change your mind on something benefits scum more than town. Town benefits from changing its mind, otherwise we're all confbiasing and tunneling.