House of the Dragon - Game Over!

[MariaR]

In this game it just seems like a lot of his reads just spring out of the air and he seems completely married to them as opposed to ever going back and reevaluating. I think this post is pretty interesting:

I am reevaluating. My read on Lukewarm went scum->town. My reads on junko & Mastina went town->scum. Several of my other reads have bounced around the place. This is categorically untrue

We're at a point now where I have townreads and people i don't townread and I'd like a flip, and have been at that point for a few days. This is how I play every D1. You don't have as good of a sense for me as a player as you think you do.

This entire post is a backtrack appeal and a LAMIST post all in one.
Look how my reads have changed!
you don't know how I play
etc.

Like, have you been frustrated the whole phase and I'm just missing context clues here? Because the only way I can see this coming from a villager is if you're just done with the game but I'm not getting that impression.

[GuiltyLion]

Am I not making myself clear or something? What did I backtrack on?

[GuiltyLion]

Look how my reads have changed!

Direct response to TSQ accusing me that my reads didn't change

you don't know how I play

This is because TSQ has asserted multiple times, repeatedly, that I am not playing how he expects me to play and making claims about how "town!GL would be doing this" or "town!GL would be doing that", and I'm sitting here as town just trying to tell him he's wrong

[MariaR]

b) that is definitely an AtE post, sure. I thought Andante's post was super shitty of her and posts like that make me actually resent playing, and I wanted to call her out on it. Do you not agree that's a fucking annoying post to see when you're town? Especially coming from Andante here because my last post to her was me apologizing for being mean to her, only to see now that she is going to argue that I was strategically lurking when that's absolutely not how I've been playing this game. I'm not gonna pretend wolves don't strategically lurk, or even that I haven't ever done it as a mafia before, but seeing that post as the first thing when I wake up after staying up until 2am last night to squeeze in time to play just pisses me off. That's not an AI thing, that's just a me thing.

No, I agree with everything you're saying, I don't think you faked anything in the post, I would be just as pissed if someone was like "YOU CAME INTO THE THREAD AT X TIME ONLY" like, come on now that's just stupid. I just don't know if I'm fully buying that it wasn't overexaggerated a tad, I'll read back some more. But I think the best way to use Ate as a wolf is to really feel the emotion in question and just twist it a little into a post and the first impression I got reading that was you trying to get votes off.

[GuiltyLion]

@Shea we can discuss more in the PT but I'll reply here for everybody's benefit

I feel like you're making some unfounded assumptions about what I would/wouldn't do, and also what I'm doing/not doing? Like consistently in many of my games I don't try that hard to nail scum on D1, my goal is to make a decently successful town bloc and start POEing out of there. Which is exactly what I'm doing here and I feel there's a lot of threads of the game I'm actively working in and engaging with to that end that you're discounting.

like we already had this discussion, and have similarly argued in our PT, you are missing context clues, yes

[MariaR]

This is because TSQ has asserted multiple times, repeatedly, that I am not playing how he expects me to play and making claims about how "town!GL would be doing this" or "town!GL would be doing that", and I'm sitting here as town just trying to tell him he's wrong

UNVOTE:

Hrm, alright I can give it a bit more time and look over the other two slots I'm questioning.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm really not liking marias push on gl even as one of the primary GL voters.

[UNOwen]

Haven't properly caught up yet, don't intend to until later. But I generally think that executing GuiltyLion at this point is unwise unless he's very obviously scum, which when I last checked he wasn't.

I know I still have some homework/lingering questions, namely I feel bad I haven't answered UNOwen on Andante, I want to review her ISO but generally I had her in that probtown zone because there's a number of players that seem to be playing to pocket her and she feels pretty resistant to sucking up to people suspecting/scumreading her, like I don't get any vibes that she's trying to manipulate the gamestate at all here. I know that's probably unsatisfying but that's the best I got in me at the moment

I would still like an elaboration on this though.

[MariaR]

I'm really not liking marias push on gl even as one of the primary GL voters.

Weird how this should be making you unvote but isn't.

[MariaR]

Andante Professor villa

VP ew

[Lukewarm]

Hmmm.

I might be getting cold feet.

Maybe we go back to "let's kill dwlee today, and cop lld tonight, and then try to solve the game from there" ?

[VP Baltar]

In this game it just seems like a lot of his reads just spring out of the air and he seems completely married to them as opposed to ever going back and reevaluating. I think this post is pretty interesting:

I am reevaluating. My read on Lukewarm went scum->town. My reads on junko & Mastina went town->scum. Several of my other reads have bounced around the place. This is categorically untrue

We're at a point now where I have townreads and people i don't townread and I'd like a flip, and have been at that point for a few days. This is how I play every D1. You don't have as good of a sense for me as a player as you think you do.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

Call this as opportunistic as you like

but how hard do you need to backtrack and scramble in one post? Like, does the rest of the context matter and make this better? I'm curious.

Just saw I'm a leading wagon so I either can slam dunk a wolf or get a free ticket out of the game?

Oh my goodness what a goated rep slot.

idk what game yall are reading cause not once did I say I am voting him to save my ass I just think the dude is wolfy af maybe I need to speak in dr. Seuss rhymes and that'll make more sense

How the hell else can someone read what you wrote? You absolutely did say you were voting to save your ass. Why are you denying that now?

[Thestatusquo]

I'm really not liking marias push on gl even as one of the primary GL voters.

Weird how this should be making you unvote but isn't.

My whole worldview doesn't have to shift simply because I think someone else is making bad arguments along side of me. I think you should probably know that and this seems like pretty weird shade for no reason.

That said, sure. VOTE: MariaR

[furtiveglance]

Spoiler:

1. unwnd (Prince of Dragonstone) - Scum. unwnd is pretending to think about the game. I hope they never become Monarch. My main point is that their positions on slots are stagnant. UNOwen is their top scumread already in post 1763 and this hasn't changed in 1858. Similarly, they call Andante null in 1811 ('unsure, just forgot about [Andante]') and then again in 1942 ('Laws [Andante] - No opinion). I don't buy that Town!unwnd wouldn't have thought about Andante in this time enough to give a definitive read on her, given both the amount of content she produced early game and her important position on the Small Council. These continued reads were strategic choices by someone who doesn't need to read.

2. Titus - Town. Titus is quite insightful and sharp here (see 781, 785, 788 and 795), and she couples that with an unnecessary amount of styling (see 770, 1348 and 1536) that I don't think she was doing as scum in the Cafe, probably felt less relaxed in that game.

3. PenguinPower - Town. Playstyle feels very similar to the Cafe. A lot of short posts and questions. Vote on Dwlee is good, I agree with the stance PenguinPower's taken regarding Lukewarm's push on GuiltyLion as well. Not the strongest read because I think his play is easily replicable as scum.

4. Andresvmb (Lord Commander of the Kingsguard) - I was conflicted, but I've settled on Town now. Get me on the Kingsguard.

5. Lukewarm (Master of Whisperers) - 94 makes me think Town, because I've seen Town!Lukewarm try to townread players on page 1 for outside of the box reasons before. 40 (refusing King) is a bit scummy, because I don't think scum would want the limelight in this game. I think in that games that Lukewarm becomes a TR for me, and a strong TR when they do, it's because they make a detailed case on that player (and I usually agree). The game I'm thinking of is Newbie 2090. I'm reading that case for the first time now, and I can see 2 good points (1 is the inconsistency about LLD, 2 is the reluctance to be King and VP Baltar pocket). I remember there was a reason I townread GL, let me read now and I'll see.

Spoiler:

6. Andante (Master of Laws) - 59 already has me sold on Andante being Town. I agree with a lot of the case as well. 131 is extremely ambitious, I think the hunger is Town.

7. Thestatusquo (King) - I'm finding several posts very scummy here. 440 looks like an attempt to take on an almost administrative position in the Town (similar to LAMIST), 573 is a scumtell in my experience. It's hard to categorise, maybe declaring intent to do something game-related based on nothing/meme reasons? No Town motivation for doing that. 607 is unnecessarily snapping at UNOwen for what looks like a pretty innocuous question. This could just be angry town. I don't like that TSQ is King, but I don't think it's wise to push them at the moment. Hopefully they'll just get townier. Obviously I will protect the King if I'm a Guard.

8. VPBaltar - Town. 863 is more likely to come from Town I think, directly engaging with the setup. Wouldn't put it past Baltar to be scum, just not likely for me.

9. Dannflor - Town, but less than some.

10. Unowen - Town, bet my entire LIFE.
11. GuiltyLion - 108 is towny. 1085 is a bad list, because the Lukewarm scumread is completely reactive and my slot is Town. I'm then surprised by the vote on Dwlee over Lukewarm. If I was being accused by what I thought was loud scum, I'd vote them ahead of anyone else. I don't see why Town would have any kind of apprehension about a big ol' toxic 1v1, you could expose a Mafia. It's a Large after all. It makes me think GL didn't want the smoke. Scumread. I might vote here.

Spoiler:

12. Firebringer (Master of Coin) - seems quite open and Towny.

13. Dwlee99 - I spectated a scumgame once, it was multiball, can't remember the game. This looks a bit similar from what I remember. Probable scum.

14. MariaR - Replace in was interesting. I'll move my vote away, but not sold.

15. Datisi (Hand of the King) - A lot of Socratic method going on, which could be a substitute for scumplay. Progression on Lukewarm - I don't get the 835 ('k Luke is scum'), it looks lazy. I don't know really, never played with Datisi before. I get the feeling they're always posting and thinking about the game so they'd be hard to catch as Mafia. But it's definitely possible that they are. Probably won't vote them early game.

16. mastina - Town. I understand the reads, agree with some of them (1044).

17. Junkochan (Grand Maester) - I disagree with Andante and Mastina as scumreads. This could be scum!indicative. Don't want JunkoChan in the council D:

18. Lady Lambdadelta - I think 1302 is very Town.

19. ProfessorDrapion - Seems Town, not sure on the reads though. Maybe a bit wrongfident town.

20. Enchant - Town, but I also townread Enchant a bit in (the now completed game) Normal whatever it was.

So, to clarify:

Town

UNOwen
Andante
Andres
Lukewarm
Mastina
LLD
Firebringer
PP
Titus
VP Baltar
PD
Enchant
Dannflor

Null

Datisi
MariaR
TSQ

Scum

JunkoChan
Dwlee
GL
Unwnd

VOTE: GuiltyLion

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: maria

[Titus]

Titus VLA 24 hours, medical and work

[MariaR]

How the hell else can someone read what you wrote? You absolutely did say you were voting to save your ass. Why are you denying that now?

Weird because I never said that and it never came out of my mouth, just because you're reading into something and making your own

assumption

doesn't mean it's the reality of the situation. There's no shame in voting to save yourself, but that wasn't the main point in why I voted GL to begin with and that's what I was trying to get across. Is that easier to read for you?

I'm really not liking marias push on gl even as one of the primary GL voters.

Weird how this should be making you unvote but isn't.

My whole worldview doesn't have to shift simply because I think someone else is making bad arguments along side of me. I think you should probably know that and this seems like pretty weird shade for no reason.

That said, sure. VOTE: MariaR

Idk if a slot replaced in that I thought was making a really bad push against my top wolfread and I still had time to read I'd probably unvote but I can't tell you how to play mafia. Please do keep making bad votes king it hurts you more than it does me.

VOTE: DW

After reading more, I'm fine with this.

[MariaR]

It's astounding how instead of asking a lot who just replaced into game with fresh eyes information on slots you might be having trouble with you instead want to. . .

argue with them over a statement that doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things because the result of the statement is neutral at best? Like, are you a wolf or upset over not being able to understand? pick a struggle.

[Lukewarm]

In this game it just seems like a lot of his reads just spring out of the air and he seems completely married to them as opposed to ever going back and reevaluating. I think this post is pretty interesting:

I am reevaluating. My read on Lukewarm went scum->town. My reads on junko & Mastina went town->scum. Several of my other reads have bounced around the place. This is categorically untrue

We're at a point now where I have townreads and people i don't townread and I'd like a flip, and have been at that point for a few days. This is how I play every D1. You don't have as good of a sense for me as a player as you think you do.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

Call this as opportunistic as you like

but how hard do you need to backtrack and scramble in one post? Like, does the rest of the context matter and make this better? I'm curious.

Just saw I'm a leading wagon so I either can slam dunk a wolf or get a free ticket out of the game?

Oh my goodness what a goated rep slot.

idk what game yall are reading cause not once did I say I am voting him to save my ass I just think the dude is wolfy af maybe I need to speak in dr. Seuss rhymes and that'll make more sense

How the hell else can someone read what you wrote? You absolutely did say you were voting to save your ass. Why are you denying that now?

I kind of already posted this in our PT, but that is not how I read her 2170 post.

I don't read that like the primary concern is "voting someone who is not me to save myself"

Because what she actually says is "so I either can slam dunk a wolf" or die. The primacy concern is successfully killing a wolf, not just *anyone not named MariaR*

[JunkoChan]

Spoiler:

1. unwnd (Prince of Dragonstone) - Scum. unwnd is pretending to think about the game. I hope they never become Monarch. My main point is that their positions on slots are stagnant. UNOwen is their top scumread already in post 1763 and this hasn't changed in 1858. Similarly, they call Andante null in 1811 ('unsure, just forgot about [Andante]') and then again in 1942 ('Laws [Andante] - No opinion). I don't buy that Town!unwnd wouldn't have thought about Andante in this time enough to give a definitive read on her, given both the amount of content she produced early game and her important position on the Small Council. These continued reads were strategic choices by someone who doesn't need to read.

2. Titus - Town. Titus is quite insightful and sharp here (see 781, 785, 788 and 795), and she couples that with an unnecessary amount of styling (see 770, 1348 and 1536) that I don't think she was doing as scum in the Cafe, probably felt less relaxed in that game.

3. PenguinPower - Town. Playstyle feels very similar to the Cafe. A lot of short posts and questions. Vote on Dwlee is good, I agree with the stance PenguinPower's taken regarding Lukewarm's push on GuiltyLion as well. Not the strongest read because I think his play is easily replicable as scum.

4. Andresvmb (Lord Commander of the Kingsguard) - I was conflicted, but I've settled on Town now. Get me on the Kingsguard.

5. Lukewarm (Master of Whisperers) - 94 makes me think Town, because I've seen Town!Lukewarm try to townread players on page 1 for outside of the box reasons before. 40 (refusing King) is a bit scummy, because I don't think scum would want the limelight in this game. I think in that games that Lukewarm becomes a TR for me, and a strong TR when they do, it's because they make a detailed case on that player (and I usually agree). The game I'm thinking of is Newbie 2090. I'm reading that case for the first time now, and I can see 2 good points (1 is the inconsistency about LLD, 2 is the reluctance to be King and VP Baltar pocket). I remember there was a reason I townread GL, let me read now and I'll see.

Spoiler:

6. Andante (Master of Laws) - 59 already has me sold on Andante being Town. I agree with a lot of the case as well. 131 is extremely ambitious, I think the hunger is Town.

7. Thestatusquo (King) - I'm finding several posts very scummy here. 440 looks like an attempt to take on an almost administrative position in the Town (similar to LAMIST), 573 is a scumtell in my experience. It's hard to categorise, maybe declaring intent to do something game-related based on nothing/meme reasons? No Town motivation for doing that. 607 is unnecessarily snapping at UNOwen for what looks like a pretty innocuous question. This could just be angry town. I don't like that TSQ is King, but I don't think it's wise to push them at the moment. Hopefully they'll just get townier. Obviously I will protect the King if I'm a Guard.

8. VPBaltar - Town. 863 is more likely to come from Town I think, directly engaging with the setup. Wouldn't put it past Baltar to be scum, just not likely for me.

9. Dannflor - Town, but less than some.

10. Unowen - Town, bet my entire LIFE.
11. GuiltyLion - 108 is towny. 1085 is a bad list, because the Lukewarm scumread is completely reactive and my slot is Town. I'm then surprised by the vote on Dwlee over Lukewarm. If I was being accused by what I thought was loud scum, I'd vote them ahead of anyone else. I don't see why Town would have any kind of apprehension about a big ol' toxic 1v1, you could expose a Mafia. It's a Large after all. It makes me think GL didn't want the smoke. Scumread. I might vote here.

Spoiler:

12. Firebringer (Master of Coin) - seems quite open and Towny.

13. Dwlee99 - I spectated a scumgame once, it was multiball, can't remember the game. This looks a bit similar from what I remember. Probable scum.

14. MariaR - Replace in was interesting. I'll move my vote away, but not sold.

15. Datisi (Hand of the King) - A lot of Socratic method going on, which could be a substitute for scumplay. Progression on Lukewarm - I don't get the 835 ('k Luke is scum'), it looks lazy. I don't know really, never played with Datisi before. I get the feeling they're always posting and thinking about the game so they'd be hard to catch as Mafia. But it's definitely possible that they are. Probably won't vote them early game.

16. mastina - Town. I understand the reads, agree with some of them (1044).

17. Junkochan (Grand Maester) - I disagree with Andante and Mastina as scumreads. This could be scum!indicative. Don't want JunkoChan in the council D:

18. Lady Lambdadelta - I think 1302 is very Town.

19. ProfessorDrapion - Seems Town, not sure on the reads though. Maybe a bit wrongfident town.

20. Enchant - Town, but I also townread Enchant a bit in (the now completed game) Normal whatever it was.

So, to clarify:

Town

UNOwen
Andante
Andres
Lukewarm
Mastina
LLD
Firebringer
PP
Titus
VP Baltar
PD
Enchant
Dannflor

Null

Datisi
MariaR
TSQ

Scum

JunkoChan
Dwlee
GL
Unwnd

VOTE: GuiltyLion

VOTE: Furtiveglance



I read this like 10 times and there's no way you get to a conclusion that me and Guiltylion are both scum together (that would be like the ultimate distancing from both of us if you actually read our interactions) and makes me think GL is actually town if you flip red

And putting me on scum list because i read mastina and andante (2 players with questionable reasoning for their reads) as possible acum in early game is bs reason to have me there

[GuiltyLion]

@furtive - if you are null and conflicted on TSQ, why do you want to be on Kingsguard?

[Datisi]

said it in the supporters pt and i'll say it here, this wagon on guiltylion is trash and i do not like it

I think the things he's listing off here very succinctly describe the game he's playing here.

i don't get this post at all. he's describing things that town-datisi would notice about his play if he were scum, right? i don't notice the Bad Vibes from him yet, how is this describing his play?

1 in DW/Datsi for sure. Rev those slots down with a chainsaw in w/e order tbh but I'm more scared of Datsi wiggling their way out of a vote against me (AGAIN) then DW so B)

(why?)

(also that isn't my name)

[Lukewarm]

Furtiveglace's reads list is wild, but not in a way that I think makes him scum.

Like, reading through it, I actually think that on the whole, it makes me more inclined to think he is town then probably anything else that the slot has done.

VOTE: Dwlee

[unwnd]

I think furtives readslist comes from a decent place albeit a bit rushed

[MariaR]

I kind of already posted this in our PT, but that is not how I read her 2170 post.

I don't read that like the primary concern is "voting someone who is not me to save myself"

Because what she actually says is "so I either can slam dunk a wolf" or die. The primacy concern is successfully killing a wolf, not just *anyone not named MariaR*

Is this what it's like to have you on my side Luke? How refreshing I'm ever so thankful that someone understood it. I was beginning to think I was speaking insanity. Do you think there's anyone I should look at as a point of interest? I'm sadly out of topics at the moment.