Mini Normal 2288: Reposting Same Picture As Flavor Are Lame

[Klick]

oh wait one more thing on this actually, sorry I get super distracted. I find it interesting though that your first post is "hey yall I want daily reads lists" it seems odd, like I like seeing what people naturally do, like often if town posts a readslist, and it's the first main one of the game, then scum see it, panic, and post one solely to look towny, it's kinda why I don't start asking for lists from people till later, not post 1 day 1...

I kind of agree with this

Readlist as of Post 16:

TOWN:
LEANING TOWN: Andante
NULL: Brickwalll, PenguinPower, Haschel Cedricson, Herta, geraintm, Lazy Shirou, Kowahbunga, redFF, Andante, GamerGryff, Gamma Emerald, Taly
LEANING SCUM:
SCUM:

[Klick]

VOTE: andante

hi everyone

Yeah, actually, what specifically makes you park your rvs vote on me... could pick gamer, haschel, gamma, or penguin
yet you opted to join the vote on me. Please share why

I decided pre-game I would vote the first person voted, I'm not sorry it was you.

oooh the aggro

[Klick]

VOTE: Kowahbunga

Let's kill scum on Page 3

[Klick]

Game started about 5 minutes after I went to bed. Classic. My first game out of Road to Rome so go easy on me

Just starting work but will follow throughout the day and usually post late evenings (UK based) for me so that’s when I will be online to chat mostly.

Ayyy same. We might be able to chat live fairly frequently then.

[Klick]

You know what? The vote originally was just a thought I had to do. I figured "hey, let's put a second vote on someone when i get to the game thread, see if that kills rvs dead or not" and I feel strongly, the game is going on now and RVS is way over. I don't know if it's entirely because of me, but I'll accept partial credit.

Now after reading all of Andante's response's to my, at the time, nothing vote. I can't see how any of their posts come from a town POV. And I am indeed currently scum reading them for this.

This doesn't read like how town structures their thoughts
This reads like Kowah decided it looked best to progress to a scumread on Andante and added the depth and oomph afterwards

[Klick]

How is it scum motivated to bring attention to yourself?

Have you considered how this reasoning applies in relation to your Andante scumread?
Andante has been bringing a lot of attention to himself
Do you feel like that's scum motivated?

[Klick]

White Flag is over which means I can actually play this game and enjoy it now!

[Klick]

VOTE: Kowahbunga

Let's kill scum on Page 3

You spelled "Andante" wrong.

Do you scum read andante?

You know what? The vote originally was just a thought I had to do. I figured "hey, let's put a second vote on someone when i get to the game thread, see if that kills rvs dead or not" and I feel strongly, the game is going on now and RVS is way over. I don't know if it's entirely because of me, but I'll accept partial credit.

Now after reading all of Andante's response's to my, at the time, nothing vote. I can't see how any of their posts come from a town POV. And I am indeed currently scum reading them for this.

I read this a second time and it still feels scummy af

[Klick]

How is it scum motivated to bring attention to yourself?

Have you considered how this reasoning applies in relation to your Andante scumread?
Andante has been bringing a lot of attention to himself
Do you feel like that's scum motivated?

Wouldn't you agree though, that my vote is more out of place in a game of mafia than someone bringing attention to themselves because they believe they found scum? I don't think you can compare the two types of sore thumbs.

I expect to see nearly everyone at one point or another acting like Andante. But I don't expect them to make such an elaborate case against someone from at most a 4-word post.

Most expect a single random vote in RVS. I'd wager not as many expect an RVS vote on someone who already has one.

My vote was intended to create a conversation, and inadvertently made me scum read someone because of their response to it.

Right, but this kind of sidesteps my point entirely

You think bringing attention to yourself isn't something scum generally wants to do (I tend towards agreeing with this)
Using that model of scumhunting, how do you think Andante fits?
Because I think Andante brought a LOT of attention to herself with her initial push on you and I'm confused at how you can both say 'I brought attention to myself, why would scum do that' and think Andante is scummy here

[Klick]

I kinda think GamerGryff is easy scum early wagon bait

[Klick]

By that I specifically mean that by Page 7 I could easily see ar least one of Taly/Penguin/geraintm being scum and feeling like Gryff is a comfortable place to be

[Klick]

Yeah Gryff reads as hard town to me

[Klick]

Klikk

needs to give more, promised evening chats with me which are yet to materialise.

Worth noting that these will be entirely dependent on whether I'm around and can be arsed to effort in a Mafia game on any particular evening. You also won't get me on any Wednesday evenings.
Basically if it happens it happens. Don't think about it too hard.

[Klick]

Kow has too many votes for this early. Got my eye on Penguin,red, Klick, and andante. Likely at least one scum on there.

I'm at work, so this is all I'll be able to say for the next fivish hours.

Red and Andante seem okay rn
Other 2 idk

I don't like Gryff's post but Gamma's is not much better. This legitimises poor scum hunting

What do you think of

Gamma

taking

Red

and

Andante

out of that pool?

To me, Gamma’s approach feels opportunistic in that they are jumping on this nothing post and using it as a way to build credibility.

I don’t want to answer for Gamma but I think the really question here, Taly, is why Gamma felt out of those 4 that Red and Andante had done enough to be town, and why the other two are not? I would be interested to hear their rationale on why these two.

Until then, like I said it just seems opportunistic.

You’re legit lying about what I’ve said. I specified my not townreading Klick and Penguin didn’t make them scum.

?????
Where did Brickwalll say or imply that they thought you were saying Penguin and I were scum
I don't think this is an accurate interpretation of what Brickwalll said about you

[Klick]

Yeah Gryff reads as hard town to me

lmao - this isn't a real read

Is too

[Klick]

Andante -

Lean Town, though I'll admit the excitedness comes off as maybe a little too friendly, though I've never played with them, so maybe that's just them all the time.

Brickwall -

Is apparently new, though even if they were more experienced I still wouldn't put a read on them because they've made 11 posts total. There's not enough here to work with, though I agree with their take on Gamma in #154.

Gamma -

In addition to Brick's take on her, she's barely said anything in the first place. If you're going to be made about me not "giving content" then you can't not say the same about Gamma.

geraint -

Difficult to read, but I want to bring up this point as quoted by them in #123. "It is day 1, there is pretty much nothing anyone can do which should set off a real scum ping. Just go with the flow and wait till tomorrow." This is 100% correct, though I still think going with the flow shouldn't just mean "vote someone, anyone, out."

Haschel Cedricson -

Completely absent from the game. Null.

Herta -

Seems to have a history with Gamma and knows their shit on how she plays. Even despite him suggesting to get me out of here, I'm going to say this is town, for the time being. This could be deflection and trying to push it off on Gamma. If Gamma is town, I'm gonna say Herta is scum, and vice versa.

Klick -

Has said even less than Brick, and only contribution has been saying "let's kill scum Page 3." Null.

Kowabungah -

I don't like the harping on Andante. I think they're making a mountain out a molehill, which is exactly what they're accusing Andante of doing. That said, I want to hear Andante's response to #196. Despite this, I'm leaning scum here. And reminder: I still think that putting so many votes on him early is not the contributing factor to this, I think the deflection is the case here, but I'm not confident enough to put my vote on Kow just yet.

Lazy Shirou -

Chaotic neutral is the best I've got. They've really done nothing but shitpost, so why is no one complaining about that? I can't tell if #217 is an attempt at a softclaim, though I think it's more likely just further shitposting. Though, maybe he's playing 4D chess, and assuming we'll all believe it's just part of his wacky antics.

PenguinPower -

I don't know why everyone is convinced he's town. Posts have been mostly fluff.

redFF -

Mostly nothing posts, though his take in #182 intrigues me.

@redFF

can you explain your thoughts on Kow scumslipped in RVS?

Taly -

Despite their take which I disagree with, this is town. They're take on Brick I also can agree with, because of his newbie status.

Oh, and for the record, can you guys call me "Gryff" please. It's my preferred name.

I don't think this is a scum post at all
I don't think this player cares at all about getting townread

[Klick]

I don't think Brick is implying you're claiming a scumread on me and Penguin
I think their main point is that your response to Gryff felt like making shallow content out of nothing, implying you're doing so because you don't actually have reads

[Klick]

Vig should shoot geraintm he's probably scum but not at a level where it will be anywhere near conclusive by the end of D1

[Klick]

No Brick has a point
At the very least it is far from obvious that your interpretation of what Brick said is an accurate interpretation
No one else in the thread is following this line of reasoning intuitively and going 'yeah Brick lied wtf?'

I don't even really get what the point of lying about you implying that Penguin and I are scum would be? There's no clear benefit

So Instead of just eyerolling and dismissing criticism of your claim you could either reevaluate or go into more detail about why you're convinced that's what Brick was implying

[Klick]

Official Vote Count 1.04

With 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to eliminate.

Kowabungah

(5): redFF, Klick, Andante, Herta, PenguinPower

Gamma Emerald

(2): Lazy Shirou, Brickwalll

Haschel Cedricson

(2): GamerGryff, Andante

Andante

(1): Kowahbunga

PenguinPower

(1): Haschel Cedricson

Brickwalll

(1): Gamma Emerald

GamerGryff

(0):

Not Voting

(2): geraintm, Taly

Deadline:

(expired on 2023-02-02 19:43:16).

Mod notes:

Now with 90% less mod errors!

Sorry to say, Andante is voting both Kowahbunga and Haschel on this VC

[Klick]

Hi Shirou I'm town I hope you are too because I think it could be fun.

[Klick]

Tl;dr: I had to try way harder to play competently in White Flag because I find playing as scum to be really difficult, so having a halfway-decent game there meant I neglected this for a while. That and I was already invested in trying to play well in White Flag.

The reason I play Mafia nowadays is largely due to the enjoyment I've found recently in being town and getting to solve the puzzle. And when I enjoy something, I like to get really invested in it in depth. I normally only join one game at a time because any more than that and I won't be able to process the game as fully as I want to.

But while I might post in a town game casually or for fun, I actually really don't enjoy playing as scum. It gets me really anxious and I overthink things way more than I already do.

I put more into White Flag because I needed to. I'm town in this game and it's in its early stages, meaning there's very little pressure. I can do solving in this game whenever. But I needed to be committed to playing well as much as I could in White Flag.

[Klick]

also uhhh idk if this is a hot take or anything, but I started ISOing peeps, to work on what my actual reads are, well it started as not ISO, but trying to go "quick, gth, what do I think" I had no thoughts for most, so I've turned to ISOs, I'm like 6 posts in to Brickwall, and I'm pretty confident brick isn't town. When I'm done I'll share my thoughts, but like, so far Brick, it's not looking amazing

I have the exact opposite read

[Klick]

Brickwalll is currently my second most confident townread

[Klick]

I think Brick's posting overall reads as very comfortable and confident in itself. Brick is being very open with their thoughts while also not feeling like they're oversharing. Brick is probing and asking questions and I think the intent of them is to genuinely get answers and scumhunt rather than to mislead anyone or persuade us that Brick is town. Brick feels confident presenting their unique perspective to the game as opposed to trying to blend in. I think all of these things make Brick really likely to be town.

[Klick]

-177: oh yeah this post, I answered it on its own, but after reading the above posts, you’re like all questions… then people give you an answer, and that’s just it? Like, what is the purpose of the questions you ask if you don’t actually care about the responses?

I will say on this in particular that I used to do this often as town and basically trained myself out of it through experience
I still do it sometimes
I suspect Brick may be a bit like me in that they usually ask questions for clarity of understanding rather than discussion

[Klick]

I'm bad at getting value out of back-and-forth discussion in general though, my specialty is solving without interaction

[Klick]

-228: So you give a reason for Taly and Herta town, and then you just go “Penguin town, And Andante” like, reasons?

See, I think casually dropping four townreads with little justification is a lot more likely to come from town than scum

[Klick]

Making a more proper response to your recent points Andante
But were people even calling Penguin town? I've read back twice recently and don't remember that being much of a point of discussion but it's entirely possible that I just filtered that info out

[Klick]

Actually with Brick here now I think I'd rather let them defend themselves
I will say I also like 333

[Klick]

peer pressure is bad... stay away from it kids

yeah - but you should

Do it

[Klick]

His name is literally 'Lazy Shirou'

[Klick]

Yeah Gryff reads as hard town to me

Is it really just the lack of fear from getting scumread that supports this?

Yes, though after sleeping on it I think 'hard town' is an exaggeration

[Klick]

Making a more proper response to your recent points Andante
But were people even calling Penguin town? I've read back twice recently and don't remember that being much of a point of discussion but it's entirely possible that I just filtered that info out

I recall saying so earlier and nothing's caused me to doubt that. I'm not following your suspicion there.

I've not stated suspicion of PenguinPower
He's not really done anything to influence my read on him yet

[Klick]

Gamma -
In addition to Brick's take on her, she's barely said anything in the first place. If you're going to be made about me not "giving content" then you can't not say the same about Gamma.

Herta -
Seems to have a history with Gamma and knows their shit on how she plays. Even despite him suggesting to get me out of here, I'm going to say this is town, for the time being. This could be deflection and trying to push it off on Gamma. If Gamma is town, I'm gonna say Herta is scum, and vice versa.

in fact those two reads together don't even make SENSE

if Gamer thinks that one of Herta/Gamma is scum and clears the other, and town reads Herta for now, he necessarily had to think Gamma is scum which isn't the impression i get from his read on her (Gamma) at all.

i believe this was an informed read. decent confidence although i've learned the hard way to never be sure of anything i guess...

This just reads as Gryff making these reads right before writing them
Gryff wrote the Gamma read, moved on to Herta, and then had further thoughts about Gamma while developing the Herta read without going back and changing what he wrote originally about Gamma

and I think that lack of care in detail is more likely to come from town!

[Klick]

dunno who to vote between gamma/gryff

gamma seems the path of less resistance hm?

klick i think you're too early to call gryff the mislim bait for scum just because he sounds scummy, i believe he has decent chances of being actual scum

I'm open to it as a possibility but I think it's wrong atm

[Klick]

happy to yeet kow now

let's go!

Haha I had the opposite reaction
UNVOTE:

[Klick]

I think town is currently dominating the conversation

[Klick]

That is a list of people who voted Gryff along with a general statement about how juicy a Gryff wagon probably looked to scum
Like if you want to get into the details then yes I think you *being on the Gryff wagon* does make you somewhat more likely to be scum on an individual level
But on a personal/behavioural level you haven't done anything outside of what I'd expect from you as town or scum

[Klick]

[Klick]

I can't actually tell whether that's fully sarcastic or carries some actual bewilderment behind it

Either way

*looks at Taly blankly and shrugs*

[Klick]

lmao - so you're saying you calling me potential scum for an action I did is not me doing something that has an influence on your read on me

BUT

that same action makes me more likely to be scum on an individual level (wtf does this even mean) but not on a personal level?

Yes?

I think being on the Gryff wagon is something that scum, in general, would be likely to do in this position.

Unfortunately, reality doesn't often work according to generalities - which is something that a lot of people on the site often have trouble grasping. General tells hold much more limited weight than people like to think, because everyone thinks differently. I believe that analysing how someone actually behaves as an individual is a much more accurate lens to use for sorting someone's alignment most of the time.

So yes, I think Gryff is a likely place for at least one scum to park their vote, and you're one of the people who parked their vote on Gryff. But it's not something that changes my view of you much in the grand scheme of things.

Even this conversation is a pretty good example of what I'm saying. Generally I find your interpretation of my read on you to be pretty uncharitable in a way that I'm naturally inclined to not trust. But you've reacted this way to my way of thinking about the game at least once before to my memory and been town. You seem to genuinely feel this way about how I play. So even though I think your read on me is shit, I don't think it's scummy on its own.

[Klick]

There's two ways of solving being talked about here and my terms for them might not be the best but the concept shouldn't be that difficult to grasp.

There's general scumhunting, things that are widely-applied tells like OMGUS, Lim All Liars/Lurkers, 'NSG tell', etc and things that apply disregarding individual differences. So 'there's probably scum on the Gryff eagon' would be a general scumhunting statement

and there's behavioural scumhunting, things that take into account the person being read and their personality. A large chunk of this category is 'meta', but assessments of someone as an individual don't have to be limited to gameplay in another Mafia game

My take is that most of general scumhunting is not accurate enough to actually be useful in a game
and behavioural scumhunting is good when used right but most people use it wrong

[Klick]

My take is that most of general scumhunting is not accurate enough to actually be useful in a game

Okay that's not entirely fair
More like it's overrated. When used correctly and applied in context and used with multiple general tells aligning to suggest a player is one alignment or another it can be useful
Most people don't do that though

[Klick]

Penguin, I'd follow you, but

What's your read on me and why?

[Klick]

a game where you can win even after you're dead as either alignment can't be applied to RL circumstances Kowah

i find this discussion a bit funny because one of the things that weirded me out when i was a newbie was the fact you could win after dead in the first place, didn't feel "right", but it also would be a completely different (and honestly kinda interesting) game if dead townies couldn't win, it would make townies kinda play like scum for the survivalist aspect.

(although site culture is such that a dead townie would still feel like they won anyway if town wins by the end)

I considered running this exact game a couple of weeks ago!

I decided not to because mafia NKing you isn't really a fun way to lose the game

[Klick]

the velocity is surpassing my read rate

but i townlean

kow

, i really doubt scum doubles down on takes that have been widely suspected or rebuked as objectively suboptimal play

Yeah this

[Klick]

hey

klick

, we differ greatly in how we solve

i could use some interaction at the moment

I'm down
Any topic in mind? I'm particularly bad at actively probing the thread in ways that actually help me solve
But I'm happy to help

[Klick]

attempting build towncred? he's been white knighting players and has inconsistent thought processes so that pings me

I like how you just dropped the conversation we were having about my thought processes do you could keep lazily saying they're inconsistent

[Klick]

lol ok so I was gonna read through then come up with thoughts, but this is literally Klick's first post of the game:

oh wait one more thing on this actually, sorry I get super distracted. I find it interesting though that your first post is "hey yall I want daily reads lists" it seems odd, like I like seeing what people naturally do, like often if town posts a readslist, and it's the first main one of the game, then scum see it, panic, and post one solely to look towny, it's kinda why I don't start asking for lists from people till later, not post 1 day 1...

I kind of agree with this

Readlist as of Post 16:

TOWN:
LEANING TOWN: Andante
NULL: Brickwalll, PenguinPower, Haschel Cedricson, Herta, geraintm, Lazy Shirou, Kowahbunga, redFF, Andante, GamerGryff, Gamma Emerald, Taly
LEANING SCUM:
SCUM:

Like, the conversation was all about the day 1 readslist stuff, and Klick enters going "HERE'S MY READS THROUGH POST 16" in list form, cause that's what was being talked about, but like, the only "read" on that list is me leaning town, and like, there's not even an explanation why? like, you agreed with my post #16, so much so, that you have to tell everyone you think I'm town? ok, this is being posted on post #60, meaning there's like 40 other posts in there, not gonna move others around? No shit I'm town, I'm not a hard read, why am I the person you decide to announce? At first I was just like "a readslist for the first post?" but like, it's not a list... it's just saying I lean town, and all others null, and you're declaring I lean town on post 16 of the entire game??

ok sorry, back to reading the ISO, yeah lol Penguin I'm not feeling great about Klick hahaha
(see Brickwall, at least for you it took 6 posts, Klick here? first one!)

This post was largely intended to be humorous

[Klick]

Yeah Gryff reads as hard town to me

So, I would love to know what exactly made Gryff read as hard town that early lol cause before this, Klick was just in the Kow!Maf boat saying what we wanted to hear?

Klick's ISO is literally only talking to/about
* Me/Kow
* Gryff
* Brickwall

like, that's it, you can't just quote a wall of reads and go "this comes from town" like, do you want to discuss any of those reads? And after last night we learned Klick's 2nd most confident TR was Brick, when like, before last night it was kinda just "brick has a point!" and that was it, not commiting to a read, I went "hey here's my thoughts" which now, I'm like, brick sounds friendly! I like brick a lot!! so sure maybe it's wrong, but the way Klick defends, and that level of confidence, just feels like it comes from TMI

and like, for someone who STARTED THE GAME with a readslist, there has been no update to it. which is odd to me, like, you posted a readslist cause we were like "yeah lists are cool!" and you made a "list" through post 16, which was literally just your read on me? then "brick is my very confident tr" that's not on the list!! I'm still confused where this brick TR came from looking at the ISO, like, it just appeared tbh, and Klick is barely interacting with people, yeah I'm down with this, Shirou is a very close 2nd place for my vote

(This almost feels like I can make a list right now... jk idk where I'd put gamma/gryff on the list)

I do have further thoughts on people
I, in fact, have a full readslist
I am comfortable with the amount I have shared thus far and don't see how it follows that 'having reads that I have not already discussed' leads to 'so Klick must be scum'

[Klick]

Penguin, I'd follow you, but

What's your read on me and why?

I just gave it lol, you're not town

I was catching up and hadn't read the last page?
You want people to be fully open and honest about their reads but simultaneously project false confidence about your own reads onto the thread

I'm going to talk about the reads I want to talk about, which will largely coincide with how confident I am in the reads
This should be satisfactory

[Klick]

Sometimes I like to play Mafia like poker

[Klick]

Klick, can I see a current readslist from you?
(I will respond later! We need less Andante in this, cause 20% of the content being me? it's going to mess up my reads lol)

Following on from my last few posts, I'd rather not
You, Brickwalll and Herta are my most confident townreads if that helps!

[Klick]

Shirou feels towny too

[Klick]

it's the second time i'm explaining myself on what there is to be gained on asking kowah to do that in fact

What is he actually solving though? his first post of the game was literally a "reads list" to say I was leaning town??

exactly

it's not a constructed post to look like he's solving, it's a bit silly and most likely bc he's trying to keep track of his own readlist to me

i also note down my readlist every now and then, and in the start of the game almost everyone is also at null (here you were in the town leans from the start from me skimming the game i guess)

maybe it's because it feels like a relatable post but i like it

No it was mostly just a meme
Did I really execute it that badly? ugh

[Klick]

yeah pp is back to null

Lol - what is he actually solving?

he had takes on gryff and brick and expanded on them

but at the same time he isn't trying too hard to look like he's solving the game, he's doing it casually

it's relatable to me and i town lean him for that

He’s white knighting newbies. That isn’t solving.

'White knighting' is a fun buzzword to make an otherwise reasonable townread look bad

[Klick]

Okay why

[Klick]

I believe that Shirou actually intended to be lazy this game and got baited into trying more than he wanted to because he too likes solving

[Klick]

Am I the only one who finds it odd when the people you're talking about show up right as they're being talked about? They always show up and comment on something random/not related to what people are saying about them, Like Brick did it last night, Shirou had a very odd pop in earlier, and Klick now, I'm just like, I don't even know what to think? Like, you're following along? but don't want to clarify stuff that matters?? (To be fair brick clarified stuff last night, but the timing of him showing up after not being there? like, you're waiting to be talked about to show up??)

You make too many assumptions

[Klick]

I decided not to because mafia NKing you isn't really a fun way to lose the game

i would make it nightless imo

if you run it i would love to play it bc it would feel like a real death game

Oooh yeah that would work.
I've played a lot of Survivor on MS and it felt like the way it'd play out in theory would wind up being a pretty neat mix between the two games

[Klick]

I agree with PP's white knighting theory the most and had noticed Klikk being extremely helpful and answering questions on my behalf. And like I mentioned the polish nature of there posts comes across as too polished and precise.

I mean, Andante literally said 'if anyone townreads Brickwalll could you please say so and tell me why'
I don't think I answered any questions for you that you had not already given an answer to previously
Gamma made some interpretations of what you said that seemed really clearly off-base to me

The precision point is just how I post. I like to say what I mean. This is verifiable if you were to look at other games I've played.

[Klick]

ayy

[Klick]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[Klick]

If Andante is scum he's trying really really hard to give as much to the part as possible and he can't keep that up for a whole game surely

[Klick]

Sorry Andante, my mistake

[Klick]

it can come from town but i don't think gryff should have the image of me as "good"

i feel like he may be scum that i caught early on and that's why he assumes i'm "smart" idk

If I was scum I would try to discredit you. I don't have an ego about myself as scum

I mentioned before I don't consider myself to be particularly good at mafia either, and that's not even factoring in that haven't played in like half a decade.

I believe this self-perception
Gryff is town please unvote

[Klick]

Gryff is a distraction from Gamma, she's open-wolfing but without doing enough to attract the thread's overall attention
Gamma's vote on Gryff is so weak she's trying not to disturb the balance

[Klick]

Open-wolfing is being scum (or a 'wolf') and not particularly hiding it
Opposed to deep-wolfing which is being scum who is hidden pretty well and set up for endgaming

[Klick]

Screw it, I'm just gonna say it. If you wanna vote me out, I don't care anymore.

I came back because I missed this game, but it seems the same thing that made me leave in the first place is here too. You can't judge every player the same. I'm old. I'm rusty, I work two jobs and can barely make it one day fully conscious anymore. I've never been good at this game, but I like playing. But I was always first on chopping block because nobody likes my style of play. And yes, I don't have a lot to say Day 1 because it's Day fucking 1. You can't gleam much from that, and surprise surprise, people look for an easy wagon. When you're down two townies tomorrow because you voted me out, would it be worth it?

I should've never come back. The mental stress of this is too much for me to handle. Maybe I just longed for the simpler days, before the endless bore of the daily grind, before the incessant cyberbullying I've suffered that almost made me a shut-in. Maybe I just wanted to relive the innocence of my youth. I've always sucked at this, but I do what I can. But I don't have the time or patience to wait around a month for another game. You all get to play together all the time, that much is obvious. This was my way of testing the waters of whether it was worth it to come back, but as always, I get the short end of the stick. I've always been easy pickings for scum to push a mislim on me, because I'm not good at the game. I wanted a little more excitement in my life, but maybe I'm not meant to have it.

Intent to hammer in 16 hours

HOLY SHIT THIS.

Please don't leave me here alone to teach people that we're people and not just mutations of the perfect Mafia player.

The site isn't all bad, just tell people they're wrong when they scumread you and most of them should learn that over a couple of games.

[Klick]

What a legend honestly

[Klick]

Don't think that you're bad. At its core this game is about being able to read people and influence people. I suck at the second bit but am pretty good at the first bit and I get on alright.

When I first came on the site I was constantly ignored and eliminated for being a VI over, and over, and over again. People were horrible to me. Part of the problem was that I was literally 13 and still figuring a lot of things out. But there was a big problem with people being stuck in their own perspectives.

Tge site is in a better place for that right now that I've ever seen it. You seem to have the foundations in a good place for being able to ACTUALLY read people well. So I think it'd be really cool if you stuck around.

[Klick]

@all

Gryff is incredibly obvious town. If you're town, get your head out of your ass and find somewhere else to vote.

[Klick]

some people take games too seriously.

if u aren't here to joke and have fun why play

Because I want to learn something

I think it's fine if you want to joke and have fun
But let me do my thing please

[Klick]

some people take games too seriously.

if u aren't here to joke and have fun why play

Whether I like it or not, I've always been annoyingly competitive. I can't stand it when I'm not good at something. It's a reason I refuse to play fighting games with other people.

Sorry. I genuinely do want to have fun.

I see. I am reading Gryff accurately because we are incredibly similar people.

[Klick]

some people take games too seriously.

if u aren't here to joke and have fun why play

Because I want to learn something

I think it's fine if you want to joke and have fun
But let me do my thing please

no, im forcing u to have fun and joke or ur banned.
Im the police of content of this game.

If ur post doesn't contain at least 2 jokes. U get eliminated.
These are firebringer rules and u will respect my AURITAHY

Oh uh oh gosh the pressure uh
Okay I got one

What do horses say when they've fallen down?

Help, I've fallen and GRYFF IS OBVTOWN WHAT ARE YOU ALL DOING UNVOTE PLS

[Klick]

Aghhh I just can't do it sorry

[Klick]

Gamma why aren't you being town

[Klick]

It's hard for me to describe in a way that isn't just 'I read Gryff's posts and completely believe what I've read is from someone who is thinking about this game from a town perspective and not from scum who have to fake a narrative'

I'd be happy to explore that more and attempt to explain it but I've had trouble diving deeper into explaining similar reads in the past
It turns into an 'I see it but you don't' fairly quickly

[Klick]

There have been times where you have felt clearly town and that has been correct
This is not one of those times

[Klick]

What things do you feel strongly about in this game so far, if anything?

[Klick]

Or what do you feel more strongly about relative to other things?

[Klick]

You're saying I don't know what 'being town' is for you
What does being town mean for you?
How are you being town here?

[Klick]

There have been times where you have felt clearly town and that has been correct
This is not one of those times

And what times were those?

Sorry, I only answer questions from people that I decide are asking in good faith

[Klick]

Isn't gamma sick? Like, I was good with just letting Gamma chill till she felt better, nothing worse than feeling like shit and having to fight for your "life" in the game

(Hope you're starting to feel better Gamma!!!)

I guess Gryff is being given a free pass? Gryff literally said Shirou is one of 2 people doing the most here... SHIROU.. like are we serious? then had 1 post of "omg my first game back I don't wanna die!" and everyone is like "oh no! how dare we vote gryff!!" like, if you don't want to be voted out, do stuff? cause you're just sitting there "andante maf!" like, what? it's not funny, you refuse to answer my "how the heck has shirou done the most in your opinion" but hey, you keep talking about how I'm clearly scum, at least fire is over there giving reasoning, you're just like "omg yall, andante is so obviously scum" over and over, like, that's not playing the game?

I have like five different issues with this post

[Klick]

There have been times where you have felt clearly town and that has been correct
This is not one of those times

And what times were those?

Sorry, I only answer questions from people that I decide are asking in good faith

Really? We're playing this game? fine, I'll ask the question, what part of the game did gamma clearly feel town to you?

Your question is different than hers!
I thought it was clear from the surrounding context but I was saying that I've thought Gamma has been obvtown in games that aren't this one

[Klick]

There have been times where you have felt clearly town and that has been correct
This is not one of those times

What things do you feel strongly about in this game so far, if anything?

Or what do you feel more strongly about relative to other things?

You're saying I don't know what 'being town' is for you
What does being town mean for you?
How are you being town here?

I posted four things at Gamma
The one part that Gamma actually decided to respond to is telling

[Klick]

I hate seeing the unfriendly (I know there's another word for it) tone the back and forth is going, so can we please try to keep it nice!! Like, at the end of the day, we're all people, no need to get mean, even if we're annoyed... I know I'm not the best either at this, but yeah... the whole "I only answer.." like, at that point, just ignore, or ask to rephrase the question...

Gamma did exactly this to Brickwalll
Why is it notable when I do it back to Gamma but not when Gamma does it to Brickwalll

[Klick]

Andante reads like she's defending a friend, not a scumbuddy

[Klick]

@Gamma

What are your three most confident reads right now and why?
What are you doing right now that makes this 'your town game'?

[Klick]

redFF makes posts that I agree with and it makes me lightly townread them

[Klick]

I'm mostly amused that someone thinks I'm not snarky

[Klick]

I don't think any of what gamma has done for last 2 pages is AI at all

Agree

[Klick]

idk i think this game is pretty simply andante/gamma and unkown third maybe shirou.
I don't think i have to actually try hard.

no one else is really pinging me.

What makes you think Andante is Gamma's buddy instead of just defending a friend

[Klick]

I think Gamma is the only person doing any talking right now who is scum

The other two are like geraintm and Penguin or something

[Klick]

Maaaaybe Herta but they've done some town posting

[Klick]

Maaaaybe Herta but they've done some town posting

where

There was a part where they made a claim and then got asked about it and were able to back it up pretty well showing they'd actually thought about it
Idk it was early game

I generally get the sense that Herta doesn't care that much about getting townread right now
Which is why they're currently everyone's favorite token null-scum read

[Klick]

Ah sweet thanks everyone

[Klick]

smh

[Klick]

i am going to assume you have way more tucked up your sleeve about this. to me it feels like a pretty strong night action.

What about Penguin's post specifically makes you make that assumption?

[Klick]

I think it's possible but I want to know why

[Klick]

I think geraintm is a pretty good scum equity slot

[Klick]

When I look into a player death, I don't look too much into how others are/were reading them though. I more look at what they were saying. Like for me the NK is on the player that gives the least amount of info to town. To which I believe if Andante was town, it should have been them because from my POV of how I review the game, that's who was all over the place D1. So their reads from D1 would just be meaningless to us now because they literally suspected everyone.

I think this view of the game reveals that Kowahbunga is not scum
I think someone actually being scum in this game would not have this idea of how scum choose their nightkills in their head
It's also a particularly individual way of describing how Kowah would choose the nightkill, and I think scum would be less likely to have that description so closely tied to an

individual

perspective because they are more conscious of the fact that the NK is a group decision

[Klick]

When I look into a player death, I don't look too much into how others are/were reading them though. I more look at what they were saying. Like for me the NK is on the player that gives the least amount of info to town. To which I believe if Andante was town, it should have been them because from my POV of how I review the game, that's who was all over the place D1. So their reads from D1 would just be meaningless to us now because they literally suspected everyone.

I think this view of the game reveals that Kowahbunga is not scum
I think someone actually being scum in this game would not have this idea of how scum choose their nightkills in their head
It's also a particularly individual way of describing how Kowah would choose the nightkill, and I think scum would be less likely to have that description so closely tied to an

individual

perspective because they are more conscious of the fact that the NK is a group decision

it's also someone with a partner - say someone like you - to coach them in how to approach it could do!

haha gottem!

[Klick]

The most annoying thing in this game for me by far atm is Penguin's approach to me
It feels like you're taking everything I say and interpreting it in this really Level Zero negative way, like you're deciding you don't like it and then attaching a quick 'zing!' afterwards
I remember there being a little bit of this from you the last time we played but nowhere near to this degree
I don't know what I've done to piss in your cheerios but I'd appreciate at least an attempt at understanding a perspective that's different than your own

[Klick]

Well... with all due respect, you're wrong.

My two strongest townreads ARE Gryff and Kowah at the moment, and I think them being new to MS has a lot to do with WHY those townreads have developed. I feel fairly confident in my ability to read people when they're being people and not gamers trying to approach Mafia in accordance to the MS site meta. I have a history of having rather accurate reads on players who are either new to the community, or older but not trying particularly hard. Or if you don't want to hear me talking about my read accuracy, I can at least back up the fact that I tend to express confident reads on newer players.

The thing you are scumreading is a thing that I do as town. I would probably do it as scum as well. But it definitely happens as town.

[Klick]

I view this game as either gryff being scum and herta likely being one buddy or Kowah being scum for the max troll. If all of those people are town, and Andante is town, and I assume redFF, PP and maybe Klick are more likely town than scum for some good posts there and here, geraint becomes scum by PoE, so if my main suspects are wrong and most of my town leans are right, there's decent chances of geraint being scum due to...math. he also hasn't done anything remotely townie as far as I know.

I do kinda dislike klick defending players more than attacking scum reads but /shrug, he doesn't feel that scummy to me, maybe just wrong (or maybe right??)

I'm bothered that you're hedging on me as much as you are I feel like I should be a fairly easy read for you in this game after last game

[Klick]

I view this game as either gryff being scum and herta likely being one buddy or Kowah being scum for the max troll. If all of those people are town, and Andante is town, and I assume redFF, PP and maybe Klick are more likely town than scum for some good posts there and here, geraint becomes scum by PoE, so if my main suspects are wrong and most of my town leans are right, there's decent chances of geraint being scum due to...math. he also hasn't done anything remotely townie as far as I know.

I do kinda dislike klick defending players more than attacking scum reads but /shrug, he doesn't feel that scummy to me, maybe just wrong (or maybe right??)

I'm bothered that you're hedging on me as much as you are I feel like I should be a fairly easy read for you in this game after last game

I liked you before you began to defend gryff and kowah so hard, and I dont like them

How is that not related to our past game

'But you're defending players I don't like' feels like weak reasoning to leave doubt in your mind about me in the grand scheme of things
In the context of the fact that you literally had my entire scumteam pegged D1 in White Flag and my interactions around TGP were shaped by that, I don't see how this situation compares in any way that's not surface-level

[Klick]

Fair, that kinda checks out with the end of 1061

[Klick]

My working theory of this game is at least two scum in {geraintm, Herta, PenguinPower, redFF} with one potential deepwolf in {Taly, Shirou, Firebringer, Andante}

[Klick]

Three scum in the first category feels ambitious/possibly too easy

[Klick]

your omgus is heart warming

You say that like you were expecting me to have you out of my PoE

[Klick]

Out of my townier group I really don't think Firebringer is scum
The other three all feel *somewhat possible* but I'm willing to commit Firebringer to town right now

[Klick]

oh ok

[Klick]

i am going to assume you have way more tucked up your sleeve about this. to me it feels like a pretty strong night action.

What about Penguin's post specifically makes you make that assumption?

immediate vote, no questions

Consider that that's been Penguin's MO towards me all throughout the game prior to this

I think geraintm is a pretty good scum equity slot

explain...

not going to let you just toss that out without anything else

Frankly it's mostly a gut feeling. You've done nothing at all that looks towny. I vaguely remember in prior games with you feeling at least a little bit like you could be town in games where you were town. In this game I've got nothing and that bothers me.

It's not much but it's enough for me to feel like it might be accurate!

[Klick]

Herta I'm interested in getting a more full picture of your view of the game
Where are your reads at?

[Klick]

day 1 me you can ignore, and i think day 2 i had posted once or twice for you to come to a scum read on me? that seems real quick.

I had this vague impression of you throughout yesterday but felt giving it time to develop was appropriate

'A scum read' is a reductive way to describe the read I've stated on you in an attempt to further your point
My read on you is exactly as I stated in the post you quoted. And that read wasn't developed 'real quick'.

[Klick]

What do you make of Kowah?

[Klick]

You asked me why I thought you could be scum, and I answered you here:

Frankly it's mostly a gut feeling. You've done nothing at all that looks towny. I vaguely remember in prior games with you feeling at least a little bit like you could be town in games where you were town. In this game I've got nothing and that bothers me.

It's not much but it's enough for me to feel like it might be accurate!

You then responded to that post by, uh, not actually responding to the thoughts I gave on you at all, and referring to my read on you as 'scum read' in the general:

Frankly it's mostly a gut feeling. You've done nothing at all that looks towny. I vaguely remember in prior games with you feeling at least a little bit like you could be town in games where you were town. In this game I've got nothing and that bothers me.

It's not much but it's enough for me to feel like it might be accurate!

day 1 me you can ignore, and i think day 2 i had posted once or twice for you to come to a scum read on me? that seems real quick.

This would make sense as a response if I actually gave reasoning for scumreading you based on your D2 posting. But I didn't do that. I gave a really vague 'well I think you COULD be scum'.

It's almost like this was the point you wanted to make about my read on you all along, but you decided to beat around the bush a bit to make it look more natural. It didn't really matter to you what response I gave.

[Klick]

VOTE: geraintm

[Klick]

You want to position my suspicion of you as stronger than it is so that you can argue that I shouldn't suspect you strongly

A good way of putting my current read on you is 'everyone else in the game is townier than you'

Of course I don't have solid reasoning for suspecting you, you've not done anything substantial
But there are three scum to find, and other people are giving me reasons to think it's not them, and you're not
You're thinking too much about trying to 'win with me' or otherwise argue against the fact that you have wound up at the bottom of my PoE through virtue of kinda doing nothing

I don't have to have specific things to point at that you've done that are scummy to think that you could very easily be one of the three players in this game with a red Role PM

[Klick]

'Null' becomes 'likely scum' pretty quickly when most of the townies in the game are becoming 'likely town'

[Klick]

I understand if you don't want to answer or don't have a satisfying answer Penguin
But what do you think you do differently when you're town vs when you're scum? What is the accurate way to read you?

[Klick]

I understand if you don't want to answer or don't have a satisfying answer Penguin
But what do you think you do differently when you're town vs when you're scum? What is the accurate way to read you?

I'm quite well known for being difficult to read so you should ask skitter or pooky since they have really good read rates on me bordering on perfect.

y'know I'm actually coming around to thinking I've been tunneled on you (hence the unvote) so here's an olive branch:

skitter's theory

I don't know how pooky reads me so well but he does

So skittering theory is basically what I had in my mind for why you might be town here but didn't really have enough confidence in to feel like it was worth mentioning

I feel like you have genuinely thought I am scum for most of the game and your switch off of me also felt natural

[Klick]

So skittering theory

skitter's*

[Klick]

here's andante making notes of the fact that klick is calling a bunch of people town and little else. i don't like his response here, claiming that he is keeping things close to the chest and not sharing his scumreads for *reasons*

I mean if you'd like the reasons I can give them to you
I don't really like shitting up the thread with things that aren't that important or that I don't feel strongly
I also generally find it much easier to decisively find town than to find scum
This is how I usually scumhunt and it's verifiable
I think if anyone in this game went back and tried to analyse my meta they'd actually find it odd that I expressed as much confidence on Gamma as I did, because I very rarely confidently express a scumread

It's not accurate to say that I wasn't 'sharing my scumreads'
I was holding some reads back
They were all weaker townreads that weren't properly developed yet

hey

klick

, we differ greatly in how we solve

i could use some interaction at the moment

I'm down
Any topic in mind? I'm particularly bad at actively probing the thread in ways that actually help me solve
But I'm happy to help

makes an excuse not to scumhunt

This is just... not what's happening in the post you quoted


Everything else is either some variation of 'Klick is just posting townreads' or reaches that assume I'm scum prior to the point being made

I don't know if you're familiar with the term 'solving' in the context of Mafia redFF
It popped up in the last few years and is a synonym of 'scumhunting' only it also involves trying to find the alignment of town
This has become more common in the discourse than 'scumhunting' because solving for town has become more recognised as a legitimate means of making reads over the last few years

There's not a *reason* that having lots of townreads and no confident scumreads would be more likely to come from scum than town
In terms of pure utility, scum get way more out of throwing suspicion at people than they do from calling people town
So when you say 'Klick has a lot of townreads and no confident scumreads and that's *scummy*', the response I want to give is 'because...?'

[Klick]

This town feels a little rudderless, someone should come in and drop a fat juicy case, weve had 50 pages of posts now

See I think there's actually a nonzero chance the scumteam is exactly redFF/Herta/geraintm and they really didn't like the look of my PoE.

It feels really cocky to say that, but redFF wants to shift the momentum of the thread away from where it's currently at, and I'd say the thread momentum is currently on Herta or geraintm as today's elimination.

...hahaha I just went to verify by looking at the vote count, and no, there is one other viable wagon in theory, Shirou. But who is on the Shirou wagon?

Official Vote Count 2.01

With 11 votes in play, it takes 6 to eliminate.

Lazy Shirou

(3): Kowahbunga, Herta, geraintm

geraintm

(2): redFF, Klick

Andante

(1): GamerGryff

Herta

(1): Lazy Shirou

PenguinPower

(1) Firebringer

Klick

(0):

Not Voting

(3): Andante, Taly, PenguinPower

Deadline:

(expired on 2023-02-12 06:48:00).

Mod notes:

This is hard one

[Klick]

I want to look more closely at Herta soon because I don't really have a solid individual read there, I thought their posting was kinda towny early in the game
But optically {redFF, Herta, geraintm} feels like a very very good pool to lim in today

[Klick]

I'm looking froward to Klick trying to push this scum team

Alright not all three of you then
Which one is your buddy then, redFF or Herta?

[Klick]

very rarely except for right now when you claim to have found out the entire scumeam from my case on you

Yes, the inspiring confidence I have in exactly you/Herta/geraintm being the solve is obvious from my posting

as to the term "solving", sure its important to develop townreads in order to find scum, i never claimed otherwise

And yet you want to say things like 'you're avoiding scumhunting' and use me not having confident scumreads as evidence for that.

[Klick]

I want to look more closely at Herta soon because I don't really have a solid individual read there, I thought their posting was kinda towny early in the game
But optically {redFF, Herta, geraintm} feels like a very very good pool to lim in today

I don't care about your poe. What i didn't like was your condescending, over the top reaction to redff in 1205. Thar's highly scum indicative.

1205 wasn't intended to be condescending at all and I don't think redFF took it that way? He can correct me if he did
I was fairly honest but I didn't talk down to him
It didn't feel like I was reacting in any sort of over the top way either, can you expand?

[Klick]

I'm looking froward to Klick trying to push this scum team

Alright not all three of you then
Which one is your buddy then, redFF or Herta?

I don't know about redff, but I am 99% sure herta is town. But you cannot back off now, you are committed to this and I want you to explain yourself properly.

I'm committed to exactly what I've said at the strength that I said it
I'm not committed to what you say I believe

[Klick]

It wasn't sarcasm it was legitimate
redFF hasn't played in several years and has been using other older terms and no one ever said 'solving' back in the good old days
He told me I wasn't scumhunting but I think it's pretty clear that I'm solving, just not in the way redFF is laying out
And I think that could be influenced by his perception of how people should be scumhunting based on how people used to play

[Klick]

I am 99% sure herta is town.

If you're this level of confident that Herta is town, help me and everyone else see it.

[Klick]

It wasn't sarcasm it was legitimate
redFF hasn't played in several years and has been using other older terms and no one ever said 'solving' back in the good old days
He told me I wasn't scumhunting but I think it's pretty clear that I'm solving, just not in the way redFF is laying out
And I think that could be influenced by his perception of how people should be scumhunting based on how people used to play

Do you have thoughts on this or any further thoughts on my posting Herta?

[Klick]

I am 99% sure herta is town.

If you're this level of confident that Herta is town, help me and everyone else see it.

VOTE: klick

I'm assuming you're going to argue I'm rolefishing?

If you're not prepared to explain yourself then maybe don't make claims like 'I am 99% sure herta is town'
especially when a core tenet of your current suspicion on me is that you feel like I'm not sufficiently explaining my reads

[Klick]

You seemed to suspect me based on my condescension towards redFF
I've responded to that point saying that I wasn't intending to condescend

What's your take on it and how it impacts your read on me, I guess? Am I making it up? Does it alleviate your concerns? Do you have other reasons for keeping your vote on me?

[Klick]

You seemed to suspect me based on my condescension towards redFF
I've responded to that point saying that I wasn't intending to condescend

What's your take on it and how it impacts your read on me, I guess? Am I making it up? Does it alleviate your concerns? Do you have other reasons for keeping your vote on me?

On your reply to my response?

I believe that you weren't

trying

to condescend. I think you were actually trying to intimidate red, and it came through as patronizing or condescending, which those things do in the normal course. There's intimidation in the name of getting a scum read to crack, and there's intimidation as a defense mechanism.

That is just inherently very far away from how I'd be thinking if I were scum here
I'm a coward lol

[Klick]

You seemed to suspect me based on my condescension towards redFF
I've responded to that point saying that I wasn't intending to condescend

What's your take on it and how it impacts your read on me, I guess? Am I making it up? Does it alleviate your concerns? Do you have other reasons for keeping your vote on me?

On your reply to my response?

I believe that you weren't

trying

to condescend. I think you were actually trying to intimidate red, and it came through as patronizing or condescending, which those things do in the normal course. There's intimidation in the name of getting a scum read to crack, and there's intimidation as a defense mechanism.

i agree with this. the citation of jargon, and then the basic explanation, as way to handwave off my points felt as herta describes

It accurately responds to your alleged suspicion of me
You seem to think I'm not solving
I am
You seem to think I didn't have many scumreads
This is true, but standard and not scum indicative

These two things are the bulk of your case against me

[Klick]

i can always be wrong and just being dumb but:

{

geraintm

,

Herta

, PenguinPower,

redFF

}

Klick(3):

redFF, Herta, geraintm

this is kinda ridiculous ngl. u think OMGUS is bad? get a load of three OMGUS on a row.

PP feels even more town now for the fact he unvoted klick maybe, why not push klick here if it's scum!PP and town!Klick? feels like the longer path and i'm not sure PP would take the longer path as scum.

if it ever was scum!PP and scum!Klick, i also don't think PP stop busing randomly like that, so PP feels good for me again

That's the point I was trying to make earlier

I had no votes on me
I posted a PoE of 4
3 of those 4 vote me right afterwards

I definitely think there's a correlation

[Klick]

I'm fine with voting Herta but I'd rather geraintm happen if possible
Consider my vote in both places

[Klick]

What townies when someone says they are 99% sure someone else is town doesn't respect that (you can go back and check my past games and see if i am ever this strong about something when i have pulled itnfrom mely ass) and instead just barges in and says we are partners? This is a complex game, and there is zero way I would say that not knowing it would get found out at some point in this game, and yet they just keep going.

I don't trust you. I don't trust Herta. Why should I trust your word when you say Herta is 99% town?
If you're town and you've got some sort of result on Herta that strongly indicates they're town, then tbh I believe there's much more utility in you claiming it than sitting on your hands and doing nothing while suspicion piles up on both of you.

[Klick]

The kids have been a lot today but we're having a good time. How about you?

[Klick]

Annoyed? It's not a good case

[Klick]

What do u like about it in particular

[Klick]

Scum do indeed try to buddy people as a survival tactic sometimes

The only real response that I have is the one I've already given, which is that finding townreads early is kind of my standard in every game that I've played in the past 2ish years at least. This is verifiable if anyone genuinely cares about this line of reasoning.

'Early townreads = buddying' is pure speculation without actually making a point. Is there something about the *way* I formed my townreads that makes it buddying as opposed to me forming a townread on a player? That's the kind of analysis that needs to happen to actually get anything out of this line of reasoning. If my alleged motive was to get you and Gryff on my side, there should be some evidence for that?

[Klick]

To make it explicit,

geraintm is claiming some sort of almost-clear PR result on Herta

I agree with geraintm that geraintm should go before Herta

[Klick]

@klick - you have zero interest in trying to eliminate Firebringer?

if you do get to flip me and then i turn green, what is your response, what is your plan then exactly?

as far as i can see, your progression on me goes from

#282 where you suggest Vig should shoot me (your post 17)

to #946 where i think you say i am scum because no reason (that was your post 94 - you had gone about 65 posts without mentioning me)

#1000 you respond to my post aimed at penguin
#1003 - you think i am scum

#1111 - you have me as scum in a small pool

but i still never see why you think i am scum

i have since done nothing but say the reads on me are bollocks and my opinion on another player. you still havent given me a reason why i am scum besides gut feeling
post #1129

and on the basis of a gut feeling you are going to eliminate my slot - when you acknowledge the claim i am making about herta?

i want you to go back and properly explain your progression on me.
i dont want you to come up with an explanation based on the current game state, i want you to go back and explain the guy feeling and so on which caused you to place me in the small scum pile you made

because i cannot see how a townie gets to where you are now.

I have already explained the gut feeling. You had done nothing that made me think you were likely town. When playing with you previously, I explicitly remember developing townreads on you rather quickly when you were town, and sitting around on null because you didn't post anything of consequence when you were scum.

That may seem weak. That's because it is!

Because I don't have a strong scumread on you. I have never claimed a strong scumread on you.

You ARE in a pile of four players (now three, worth noting) that I think are more likely scum than town. The MAIN REASON I think those players are likely scum is NOT by their individual actions, but rather BECAUSE they have not done anything to escape that pool.

Could I be wrong? Yeah! Based on past experience solving in this way I probably have gone wrong in at least one area. I do feel pretty good about the synergy between you/Herta/redFF though.


At what point do you think it is acceptable for someone to put a vote on you? At what level of confidence must they feel that you're scum?
Because when you play the way you're currently playing, you do not produce much content that is alignment indicative one way or the other.
If you're scum, am I meant to just keep you alive indefinitely because I'm not *confident* that you're scum?
Or am I meant to use what IS there to read you and ride with it?
Because when other players' odds of being scum go

down

, your odds of being scum go

up

.

[Klick]

I am starting to have fairly significant doubts about Andante

[Klick]

You want to position my suspicion of you as stronger than it is so that you can argue that I shouldn't suspect you strongly

A good way of putting my current read on you is 'everyone else in the game is townier than you'

Of course I don't have solid reasoning for suspecting you, you've not done anything substantial
But there are three scum to find, and other people are giving me reasons to think it's not them, and you're not
You're thinking too much about trying to 'win with me' or otherwise argue against the fact that you have wound up at the bottom of my PoE through virtue of kinda doing nothing

I don't have to have specific things to point at that you've done that are scummy to think that you could very easily be one of the three players in this game with a red Role PM

ahhhhhh I'm so toast, I figured to just go back to the first page where I showed up, this post feels significant, seems odd, like for a post that is essentially just "everyone else is townier, thus I SR you the most" this is a lot of words, and this just reads as scum to me going "yeah soooo I TR everyone, haha, but hey look over here, I bet this flips red!" cause it's probably Klick's partner, and I have no idea who this is referring to, 1 sec, gerain maybe? and if this is gerain, I find it odd that it's just "oh everyone else has been towny, so gerain is scum by default" like hello, has gerain even done anything this game? So null = by default scum?

idk, this post reads weird to me, but I also literally can't concentrate right now, and now I shall try to read more, doesn't look like anyone was talking about this post, so I'm bringing it back up, seems scummy, like, you're going "EVERYONE ELSE IS TOWNY" like, you're saying gerain is the only scum this game? cause if this was actually "I have reasons to tr everyone else, thus I feel gerain is the best lim option here" that's not the vibe I get from reading this

I think 'this person should look town but instead just looks null to me' is actually a pretty strong scumtell that most people just write off.

[Klick]

I want geraintm to claim before I consider other options

[Klick]

That may seem weak. That's because it is!

Because I don't have a strong scumread on you. I have never claimed a strong scumread on you.

Vig should shoot geraintm he's probably scum but not at a level where it will be anywhere near conclusive by the end of D1

I think geraintm is a pretty good scum equity slot

My working theory of this game is at least two scum in {geraintm, Herta, PenguinPower, redFF} with one potential deepwolf in {Taly, Shirou, Firebringer, Andante}

VOTE: geraintm

See I think there's actually a nonzero chance the scumteam is exactly redFF/Herta/geraintm and they really didn't like the look of my PoE.

But optically {redFF, Herta, geraintm} feels like a very very good pool to lim in today

bullshit on it being a weak, gut feeling.
you don't keep bashing a player the way you do on a weak feeling.
you don't get to weasel and say i never had a strong scum read on you when you keep saying i am who you want to eliminate and vote for me.
and i am not allowing you to back track, say you don't have a strong read on me but oh yeah i want you to claim and i want to vote you.

Zero of those things say that I have a strong scumread on you.
All of them are justified with the reasoning I posted in my last post.
The first post you quoted even SPECIFICALLY SAYS '

but not at a level where it will be anywhere near conclusive by the end of D1.

You are seeing the conclusion you want to see, not the conclusion that's there.

At what point do you think it is acceptable for someone to put a vote on you? At what level of confidence must they feel that you're scum?
Because when you play the way you're currently playing, you do not produce much content that is alignment indicative one way or the other.
If you're scum, am I meant to just keep you alive indefinitely because I'm not *confident* that you're scum?
Or am I meant to use what IS there to read you and ride with it?
Because when other players' odds of being scum go

down

, your odds of being scum go

up

.

when there is a preponderence of evidence that i am scum. and there isn't anything like that now.

If I went by that logic to decide who to vote I would basically never vote anyone in any game.

[Klick]

I think you mixed up your spells
I suppose I'm here now though

[Klick]

I feel very very confident that Gryff is town and I wish I knew how to express that in a way that others could see. I will be sad if a Gryff wagon goes through.

[Klick]

I feel like the reasons people suspect Gryff are pretty facile and he's just playing in a way that doesn't gel with this game's standards

[Klick]

this wagon has risen up so fast again tho

are u guys busing or is this really just that easy of a limbait for scum

deep questions

p-edit: fair i think i'm too curious about his flip even though it's curious how his wagon got close to lim so quickly on both days

p-edit 2: i went back to check votecount and i think it's E-1, so Gryff should claim.

VOTE: Gryff

I already did. Red is 100% correct that my post was a softclaim. Unless this is a game where role pms are lies, in which case I have no idea what my actual role would be in that case

Keep an eye on Shirou and andante. Red and Penguin too.

Intent to hammer after I get home tonight

A townie wouldn't hammer themselves let alone threaten to.

I can cite you dozens of examples otherwise
How you want townies to play /=/ how townies actually play

[Klick]

I was going to give him time to answer my questions.

It felt like they had given up and we weren't going to get anything useful out of them today, and the weirdness of the self hammer offer was not good, there was nothing they could have said that wouldn't have resulted in their elimination today so I was happy to get it over with. See you tomorrow

Gryff was far from a given elimination today. This is an excuse for hammering when you're the most viable counterwagon.

[Klick]

Damn, well played Andante and Fire. This loss makes sense.