TM 2023 | Open: PYP S_TM | Endgame

[Alisae]

If I think she’s town why wouldn’t I trust her on it

[Alisae]

Yeah I dunno, maybe we're misunderstood each other, or maybe I'm just misunderstanding you. It's fine we can figure it out tomorrow

I’m going to forget about these last few pages, it’s pointless and ur probably town for how u were messin w/ me when I just blew the hatchet

[Bellaphant]

This really looks like you are talking past each other by accident, from an outside perspective

[Cephrir]

I just don't get why ur leaning on LLD's read tbh

She confidently believes in it

I was trolling you

[Alisae]

I just don't get why ur leaning on LLD's read tbh

She confidently believes in it

I was trolling you

yep…
I think walked into that one ig!!!

[Alisae]

This really looks like you are talking past each other by accident, from an outside perspective

Who is mafia?

[Alisae]

I feel like it’s just gotta be imaginality ig

[Alisae]

VOTE: imaginality

[Alisae]

Hey ceph, the team dog wants you to check the scum pt, he has a “VERY IMPORTANT” question to ask you

[Bellaphant]

Steag, one of gimli/ceph and then one of my townreads is wrong. Maybe mena/imag? Tin-foil it could be one of you/rad but I think you are town and rad did a (slightly weak) version of the tell in the chat with you

I'm more sure datisi is town than lld: her town case on marushu is great, bit scum could do that, but right now I got shown a lot more of the process, so don't want to do that.

The issue is I have too many trs

[Alisae]

these reads are fucking garbage

Gimli Cephrir Ythan
LLD Marashu | Bella Rad
Datisi Mena
Mith
Imaginality Staeg

I need more from Mena Mena legit baited us today lmfao. I want to say I feel like they're always aligned with Datisi? Is that crazy?

This is me

[Cephrir]

Hey ceph, the team dog wants you to check the scum pt, he has a “VERY IMPORTANT” question to ask you

Oh yeah np here you go


Ingredients
2 cups (250g) all-purpose flour (spooned & leveled)
1 teaspoon baking soda
1/4 teaspoon salt
1/2 teaspoon ground cinnamon
1/2 cup (1 stick or 115g) unsalted butter, softened to room temperature
3/4 cup (150g) packed light or dark brown sugar (see Note)
2 large eggs, at room temperature
1/3 cup (80g) plain yogurt or sour cream, at room temperature
2 cups (460g) mashed bananas (about 4 large ripe bananas)
1 teaspoon pure vanilla extract
optional: 3/4 cup (100g) chopped pecans or walnuts
Cook Mode Prevent your screen from going dark

Instructions
Adjust the oven rack to the lower third position and preheat the oven to 350°F (177°C). Lowering the oven rack prevents the top of your bread from browning too much, too soon. Grease a metal 9×5-inch loaf pan with non-stick spray. Set aside.
Whisk the flour, baking soda, salt, and cinnamon together in a medium bowl. Set aside.
Using a handheld or stand mixer fitted with a paddle or whisk attachment, beat the butter and brown sugar together on high speed until smooth and creamy, about 2 minutes. With the mixer running on medium speed, add the eggs one at a time, beating well after each addition. Then beat in the yogurt, mashed bananas, and vanilla extract combined. With the mixer running on low speed, slowly beat the dry ingredients into the wet ingredients until no flour pockets remain. Do not over-mix. Fold in the nuts, if using.
Pour and spread the batter into the prepared baking pan. Bake for 60–65 minutes, making sure to loosely cover the bread with aluminum foil halfway through to prevent the top from getting too brown. The bread is done when a toothpick inserted in the center comes out clean with only a few small moist crumbs. This may be after 60–65 minutes depending on your oven, so begin checking every 5 minutes around the 60-minute mark.

Remove bread from the oven and allow the bread to cool in the pan set on a wire rack for 1 hour. Remove bread from the pan and cool bread directly on the wire rack until ready to slice and serve.
Cover and store banana bread at room temperature for 2 days or in the refrigerator for up to 1 week. Banana bread tastes best on day 2 after the flavors have settled together. See post above for freezing instructions.

[Alisae]

The dog says it will go excellently with his soup

[Bellaphant]

Yeah, mena was a very early read but it's now lacking evidence, comparatively

[Datisi]

you picked 1 w/ mena

...why is this implying that i'm somehow MORE likely to be scum with mena, and not LESS, because we picked the same number?? i feel like i'm getting dejavu from the last game and ig i'll have to check who was pushing that bullshit there

VOTE: Rad
I am going to come back to the thread later but Getting on when LLD gets off reads as wolf!Motivated to me

what's the wolf motivation for that? (inb4 bs - no i don't think it's townie)

My totally-paranoid take on LLD/Marashu is that they are scum together. I don't think it's actually likely, and I'm certainly not going to spend the time right now digging through all... (checks) 333 LLD posts (this will probably be wrong by the time I finish writing this) to see if it makes any sense, but that's been on my mind since I unvoted LLD, LLD unvoted Marashu, and momentum seems to be converging elsewhere.

i can understand the idea but i don't really think this is the case. in my last game with lld, we were both scum, and one of our partners was sort of under fire. i was trying to not bus, they came in with a shitty readslist, and lld... went fucking ballistic over it a bussed them into the ground.

which is to say, i don't think lld would be doing *this* this game if s/s with marashu. like, voteparking on marashu... maybe kinda sorta if i squint? but hard defending them for an utter garbage of a readslist? i don't think so. (something something lld's scumrange is infinite grain of salt, but yeah.)

Hi, a brief check-in, pain and parenting getting in the way of posting. I'll be free from the latter later so I'll respond to mith's junk case against me later today (NZ time) and some random other stuff from my skim of what's happened since. Also any specific questions if you bold them at me.

For now: my spicy one line take is LLD is still scum, and Maru is town. It's easy for scum to find reasons to towncase someone they know is town. And there are more other viable targets to mislim than earlier compared to Marashu or bust so switching to townreading Marashu makes LLD look better with less risk than before.

I obviously recognize the wolf!motive for this post. This feels like a wolf looking to discredit LLD. I have a hard time seeing this being a genuine thought because I don't think it aims to engage at all with what you're saying but rather just goes out to attack you for doing it

tbh it feels like "i have decided i see scum!lld and i will now explain why this fits with ll being scum", which like, would be theoretically fine... if he wasn't framing it as a "spicy take", which implies this somehow makes lld scum, which. no.

Anyone around? Zzzz

do you have any thoughts on my response or do you think it's scummy or whatever is happenign there

oh ali responded to the above, yeah makes sense i can see that

[Datisi]

i have said many times that i don't use games where i didn't play for meta

anyway i figured rad could be like, incompetent newbscum, but i looked up a scumgame of his and like: viewtopic.php?sid=&f=50&t=89776&user_select%5B%5D=36603 on a quick skim

ok i knew someone was gonna go all "well ackschually" over this

i don't like using non-played-in games as meta bc the conclusions i draw from them are often shit because i wasn't there to actually experience the game. but using a game like that for something simpler, such as "did this person ask useless questions" is not as complex as "what were the Vibes and Feels of this person's scum/towngame"

now if you're thinking "but datisi i asked you to look at something simple as well"

the answer is yeah lmfao i didn't really care about it and didn't feel like looking it up but didn't wanna say that

Anyway now the question becomes why Is Datisi bringing up meta from a game they weren't involved in to advocate for your innocence?

because i thought his useless questions this game were scummy as fuck, but i wanted to check if he had actually done it as scum, and he hadn't

god this rad v alisae feels like rad nitpicking nonsense out and pretending to have a point - some people are easier to read than others and i don't think this is news to anyone

ok i'm skipping all of the posts from rad and ali that are next to each other

oh pog i'm caught up

[Datisi]

ok i just checked the old pyp game where both me and scum picked 1, and the one and only person that gave a shit about my "i'm not scum bc the collided person was scum and also scum picked multitasking" argument was mafia, ad the rest of the game was me arguing with townies about it

cool beans

[imaginality]

fen doesn't agree with my read on rad so i think i'll leave him alone for now

Quoting this just because my partner's name is Fen and this had me confused for a few seconds lol

[imaginality]

Responding inline for this:

My brain does not read past votes, apparently. I didn't see that line at all. Regardless, I stand by "tacked on"; the vote switch was "on that basis" (of thinking it more likely your scumread of me was wrong). You aren't expressing here that recent posting made you feel more strongly about LLD's scumminess and that it's a factor in your vote.

The context here was I'd already started writing about 313 and then wanted to respond directly to datisi's "playing both sides" comment in 960 while we were both online so I made the "hey good timing!" post 961 and then finished off my draft post after which became 964.
I'd clearly mentioned in my previous post (694) that I needed and planned to reread LLD's recent posts so to assume I wasn't taking them into account pre-supposes I was lying about that. Compared to an unbiased take.

I want to walk through the imaginality timeline a bit here.

215 - arguments about LLD's number stuff, does not express a read
217 - random/joke vote for mith (I haven't posted yet)

No one even thought the "perfect number" point was funny, that was why I picked 6 over 8 (my first instinct), 10 draft places that line cost me, for nothing, FML

288 - mentions some things about the LLD number theory argument, does not express a read here

Dunno if you've looked at my other games but I don't think I typically have strong reads early D1

311 - points out that using examples of 1 scum in a group of 5 is... a choice; "It makes me doubt whether you genuinely are motivated by your statistical analysis here" (this is a good point, of course)
LLD's 313
[complete lack of commentary on LLD's 313] - I have a hard time believing imaginality just missed this post, or felt that responding to Ythan's clarification was more important? (330/331)

Saw she'd conceded my point about her examples but it didn't immediately click for me how much that concession in 313 trashed all her earlier posts to that point.

694 - next post referencing LLD (after a couple catch-up posts), in presenting a scumread on me.
First point of this scumread is based on my not making more of LLD's backtracking... while having made nothing of LLD's backtracking??

As mentioned I'd missed the implication til you pointed it out. It struck me how little you made of it (constrast your post with if say Ythan had been the one to point it out). It made me feel like you wanted to be positionally correct on LLD for future cred without pushing her wagon. Which made me doubt your scumread on her was genuine.

695 - "as for LLD while I do currently lean scum on her for the mech stuff as mentioned (like mith said, 313 really was bad), I've not looked as closely at her more recent posts as I should"

clearly showing I was aware and planning to look at her posts

Datisi's 960 - "imaginality is trying to play both sides of lld v mith" (prompted by LLD's 910)
961 - having expressed a not particularly confident "lean scum" on LLD, claims to have been mulling over whether one scumread is wrong or they're right and we're bussing. Proceeds with:

However, I actually don't see it as a bus as such precisely because mith pulled his punches a bit. Yes mith's voting LLD but like in the post I quoted previously I feel like town!mith would be pushing the LLD wagon more.

Note that the second sentence here is clearly an elaboration on the first. "I actually don't see it as a bus... Yes mith's voting LLD but..."; the problem is, the follow up on "don't see it as a bus" is "town!mith would...", which is a complete non sequitur. Thinking I wouldn't do something as town cannot possibly be a reason for not seeing something as a bus.
If you're scumreading LLD but not pushing her and I think town!you with the same reasons for your vote would be making a bigger deal of it then yes that makes me think scum!you is just distancing because scum!you could be going harder in the way (I think) town!you would, if you were actually bussing hard.
(Just to note though, this disagreement here might be explained if you are using 'bus' in the Datisi sense of 'distancing as well as hard bussing'.)

Anyway, therefore, it's distancing. But my recent posts read ok so the mith scumread is more likely to be wrong, so, "On that basis:", votes LLD.

Note: "more likely" to be wrong, not *likely* to be. I'm not sure what exact percentage I'd put on it but by way of example I could think I had 30% chance of being wrong about you, 20% chance of being wrong about LLD, but that still means I think I'm 56% chance of being right that you're scum together. So in my mind that's why I shifted my vote despite scumreading you both.

To this point, has given no rationale for thinking LLD is scum other than that 313 was bad.

I've already addressed how my next halfwritten post was already factored into my thinking. Also in [post]288[post] I made a point earlier about wanting to be proactive about voting for overactive players I scumread:
"Seriously though, given the last game I was in scum won by basically outposting and talking over everyone else the whole game I am inclined to vote someone quicker this game if they are drowning out the game."

This whole thing smells.

of caught scum

@mith, paraphrasing a wall from klick:

In 979 you seem skeptical of imaginality having their gut take in 964, in reaction to llds 904. It looks like in 979 you don't think it's a decent/real take? But specifically, klick says he reacted very similarly to imaginality, and we are town, so 964 does seem like it could be a town reaction. Klick saw 904 Ans thought it was awkward and could've been created for what it looked like, rather than real thoughts (I've touched on this elsewhere).

So the agreement was with imaginality's take that LLD seemed informed?

To clarify here, my issue is with the second half of the post not meshing well with the first half and with the vote switch. Not the strongest point in the case, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to argue that multiple scum in 6-10 is unlikely and that you can see multiple scum in the top 4 immediately following switching your vote from your one scumread in the top 4 to your other scumread in 6-10.

My point isn't specifically about the top 4, I used the phrase "top 4 or so". Admittedly didn't put the "or so" in the final sentence but to take the final sentence as specifically referring to just the top 4 is to take it out of context. (964 for others' reference.)

In general, it feels like imaginality keeps half-heartedly pushing the "hey maybe we should keep top 4 on the table" to... well, try to keep top 4 on the table, without committing to going hard after anyone in the top 4 (read: me).

I scumread you and LLD, if there's more chance of getting a lim on you through, I'm happy to switch back to you.

I await with baited breath the dismantling of my junk case.

*hands you a heap of dismantled junk*
your case, sir

[imaginality]

Dunno who it was but whoever was saying it would make more sense for scum!LLD to keep pushing town!Marashu rather than back off, yeah, but I credit LLD with the ability to be sneakier as scum. And like I say the backing off came in the context of various people starting to raise more suspicion about various other people (e.g. about Staeg, Rad, Gimli, me) so it's a good time to find a different target to mislim.

It's not impossible that LLD and Marashu are buddies, I can see the timing of switching away from Marashu making sense in that scenario also.

[imaginality]

Other stuff:

- Datisi's 1221 points against me are I think partly because I don't do quick to and fro style of posting so my thoughts on stuff can come after the fact and not always chronologically. However I wanted to comment on this:

and also, this seems a little hollow, when compared to their other posts. like, they think lld is scum, think she might be setting up a bus for day 2, and this post is *obviously* talking about the possibility of high-draft scum having a good role they can use on n1. which like, objectively that would be a very shitty situation for town to be in. and if you're a townie who thinks this might be the case, i would expect more... worry? attempting to sort the top draft? from their posts - but that doesn't happen, they partly backtrack in 968

I feel like if enough people are aware of the possibility of scum high in the draft it somewhat dampens top draft scum players being able to use their roles with impunity N1, if others have roles that might be able to catch them or confirm them, for example. My point was we shouldn't artificially avoid limming a scummy high draft player just because of draft position.

- LLD in 1340 you called my post "garbo"; I will assume she means like the famously beautiful classically elegant film star

Like I write a whole towncase and literally save marashu when if I don't do that, people kill Marashu today for his pop in reads, and Imaginality goes "oh I think Marashu's town but LLD is scum still "

It's ridiculous. There's no hesitance, no second thought.

Like let me put it this way. There are not 2 townies in this game who both refuse to re-evaluate on me. One is town and the other realized it was safe to do and is doing it.

I did re-evaluate on you, when you got worse because of 904. I'm not going to switch votes just to please you. You fluctuate, but I don't see someone scummier to vote yet. Right now if my vote wasn't on you it'd be back on mith.

Plus purely selfishly I think I can solve this game better if I vote out a high-posting player because then I can keep up better (that's not the main reason I'm voting you but would be a tiebreak consideration).
Also as a sidenote painting yourself as being Marashu's saviour preventing a certain lim is kinda OTT. Though NAI I guess.

If I

am

wrong about you though, I'll go for mith, Rad and ehh Ythan as my alternate solve.

- Alisae:

For now: my spicy one line take is LLD is still scum, and Maru is town. It's easy for scum to find reasons to towncase someone they know is town. And there are more other viable targets to mislim than earlier compared to Marashu or bust so switching to townreading Marashu makes LLD look better with less risk than before.

I obviously recognize the wolf!motive for this post. This feels like a wolf looking to discredit LLD. I have a hard time seeing this being a genuine thought because I don't think it aims to engage at all with what you're saying but rather just goes out to attack you for doing it

My point was I think it's less likely a townie comes up with a towncase on Marashu as detailed as LLD did. It seemed almost perfomatively thorough.

In 1350 you said I fosed Gimli earlier in 964. Actually I was null on Gimli at that point (hadn't looked into him much). I feel more confident to townread him now, e.g. 1177 feels like his questions are genuinely trying to solve Marashu's slot, and the posts you referenced in 1340 are good too

- @Menalque when you return can you answer Rad's question in 1191

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Dunno who it was but whoever was saying it would make more sense for scum!LLD to keep pushing town!Marashu rather than back off, yeah, but I credit LLD with the ability to be sneakier as scum. And like I say the backing off came in the context of various people starting to raise more suspicion about various other people (e.g. about Staeg, Rad, Gimli, me) so it's a good time to find a different target to mislim.

It's not impossible that LLD and Marashu are buddies, I can see the timing of switching away from Marashu making sense in that scenario also.

Congratulations, you've hit maximum conjecture points.

You win a prize, it's called the Fantastical Attunement Keen Entertainment award, or the FAKE award for short!

No, but seriously, are you going to spend the whole game going "Well I think LLD could be sneakier" and expressing doubts about anything that could make me town.

This isn't a read, it's a discredit, it's a baseless discredit that uses a lot of "this is possible" and not a lot of "I believe this is true, this is why"

The last salient thing you said about my slot that looked anything like a purposeful read was wrt my number theory stuff. Since then it's been "well I think LLD knows too much" "well I think LLD is setting up for a bus day 2" "Well I think LLD can be sneakier than that".

You're not actually reading the game and making stances anyone can attack you on, you made a few posts with questionable amounts of efficacy and you're leaning back into those takes with circumstantial deflections each time smoeone tries to argue for me being town to you. Deflections that could be said for ANYONE.

At what point in a series of "could be's" do you run out of coin flip probability outcomes and realize I'm more likely town than not here.

Because you keep saying these "LLD could do this as scum" ideas but you ignore that that argument has a counter side of "LLD can be town doing this" and they're equal arguments.

So you've made 3 of these "LLD is good enough at scum to do this" arguments this game, at what point are there too many?

[imaginality]

I have a question for you LLD while we're both here - who are your top 3 or 4 scumreads at the moment?

[imaginality]

Explaining how you being scum fits with the actions you've taken in the game isn't pointless. If it was hard to see scum!you doing something you've done it would shift my read on you. Up to others whether they think I'm tunnelled confirmation biasing on you but for me when I say those things it's because I think it is worth saying. I.e. that I could have concluded "that doesn't seem so likely to come from scum" but I didn't

[Lady Lambdadelta]

This is asked and answered somewhere in my posting history. Infact it's weird that you don't know since you claim to have read my Marashu case.